Two Baptists Review “Once Saved Always Saved? A Documentary Film”

Sometimes I feel the weight of the world fall

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good pepsi, shoe polish.

And I hit the YouTube link, don't say hit that sounds violent, and I feel my troubles all better.

He's not.

Your Calvinist Podcast is filmed before a live studio audience.

Hey guys and welcome back to Your Calvinist Podcast.

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Alright, now that we've got that out of the way, let's get into the show.

I have a very special guest with me today.

Someone that you all may recognize.

I'm going to bring him on screen.

You guys know this guy?

This is the Reformed Baptist.

He is the one who is in many of my hilarious videos.

And he is in our new intro song.

Which has gotten a tremendous amount of positive response.

And I want to thank everybody for that.

Everyone, if you don't know who this is, this is one of my best friends in the world.

His name is Uncle Rich Rich Rodin Rich, thank you for being on the show with

me today I appreciate it.

Well, I appreciate you bringing me back.

And yes, I am the Reformed Baptist Avatar.

And apparently I don't baptize babies and I like piggyback rides.

That's right.

That's right, I asked you to wear your sunglasses just so people would recognize you.

You're the one who was shouting out five points of Calvinism.

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So, Richard, today we're going to be talking about a documentary that came out recently.

In fact, it was very recently.

From what I can tell, it is only like two weeks old, right?

It came out at the beginning or end of March, beginning of April.

And the title of it was Once Saved, Always Saved.

But then it was marked out, like the Once Saved, Always Saved.

It was like this is.

So it's a documentary put out by a group of pastors and teachers Who don't believe in the

doctrine of Once Saved, Always Saved.

And their point was to give an argument against it.

And I have an outline of what Richard and I are going to be going through today.

So I want to make sure I don't miss any high points.

I've also got some videos that we're going to be playing from the documentary.

And in the description, I will have a link to the whole thing.

And we encourage you to go watch.

We're not telling you don't watch it.

If you want to see what they have to say.

The entire documentary is only what?

An hour and ten?

An hour and ten minutes, yep.

Yeah, so they can go watch the whole thing.

And evaluate it for yourself.

We are two Baptists.

Obviously, we disagree with a lot of what is said in the documentary.

But we're not here saying that these men don't love Jesus.

We're not saying that these men are unsaved or anything like that.

Even though I don't know them all I can't say what their spiritual condition is.

I know a few of them, Michael Brown and a few other guys.

But ultimately, we're not here to bad mouth anybody.

Or to downplay their character.

We're simply saying, we look at the scripture.

And we come to different conclusions about this particular issue.

And that raises the question right away.

Of sort of, even though we don't know who they are We do know, like Michael Brown.

Michael Brown is a very famous Pentecostal charismatic leader.

So we kind of know where he's coming from.

One of the guys introduces himself as an Arminian.

Like a historic Arminian.

Another one says, I think that he was an Anabaptist.

I think one of the guys identified himself.

No, Free Will Baptist.

Free Will Baptist.

He also said he's reformed to some degree.

But a Free Will Baptist.

He called himself a Reformed Arminian or something like that.

Reformed Arminian, oh okay.

And you know what's funny?

Years ago, when I was first studying Reformed Theology And trying to understand the different positions I read a book by Robert

Pickerelly That was called Grace, Faith, and Free Will.

And he identified himself as a Reformed Arminian.

Which is seemingly a contradiction in terms But

that term at least is out there.

But you made a good point the other day.

And I thought we could kind of start with this.

You said that you thought maybe this video Might be sort of reactionary To

a lot of the other documentaries That have been coming out recently Which are like American Gospel.

American Gospel 2 Which in many ways was hitting the people That I know Michael Brown often

shares relationships with.

And obviously there's been issues about How close he is with certain people And who he promotes and things like that.

And we know American Gospel.

Went after him.

Went after that.

And then of course there was that four hour interaction.

Between him and Justin Peters and Roy.

Not Roy Ortland, what was the.

I know his name.

He's a friend on Twitter.

He's the one who kind of got it all started.

He called into Michael Brown's podcast.

Or radio show or something.

And they had an interaction for a few minutes.

Yeah and I just.

It was a little rough.

Osmond.

Osmond, yes.

And then Sam Storm.

Sam Storm, yeah.

So there's a lot going on.

And I think it is possible That this documentary Like you said when we were talking on the phone Might be a reaction to

that.

Because there's that.

There were some other movies too.

What were the other ones.

There was American Gospel.

American Gospel 2 Calvinist Cessationist.

Yeah Les Lamphere.

Who I've had on the show.

Did those.

And then of course.

Like I was going to mention You did it before I did.

Was the four hours.

Where they went back and forth.

About false teachers.

Forever.

And I think this is In my opinion I don't know what their Impetus behind doing it was.

But in my opinion I think this is a response to They're seeing that all this other content Is being made from the

other side.

So I think they're wanting to.

Okay we need to make our own content From our perspective.

Which is absolutely their right to do that.

And we're not saying that's wrong.

It's just.

And again we're not assigning motive.

We're just saying it seems like There's a reason.

The timing.

The timing is interesting Because there has been Several years of documentaries That have been favorable Toward Calvinism.

Right.

Yeah.

And I thought You know Before we get into Because I want to talk about Our history in a minute.

But I thought.

The introduction to this Was very abrupt.

Just from a filmmaker's perspective.

And I'm not a filmmaker.

I'm a YouTuber.

There's certainly a difference.

But I do enjoy How films are made.

And how documentaries are made.

And we're going to play.

The introduction here in a moment.

And by the way.

They put this Entire video out To be downloaded I downloaded it From their website For

you know For the use of this And I hope that There's no issue With us using clips We're going to be playing them Within their context And

responding to them And we're going to link To the whole thing.

So hopefully if anybody Has any issue We're using this with We're commenting on it

Hopefully there will be No issue with us Playing clips from it.

But anyhow.

The introduction is just like One saved Always saved And it's very You know.

Like this is bad.

You know And I would say If I had to give An overall like

response I would say It certainly lacks nuance.

Yes.

They come at it.

From one perspective.

And one perspective only.

Yeah.

All the way through.

And they seem to be Attacking one issue The one saved.

Always saved.

In a minute.

We're going to talk about.

Maybe some differing views.

Within our own camp.

But yeah.

It's very much.

You know.

They've got the one idea.

And boom.

We're going to go on this But I wanted Before we do that I kind of want to give The

audience a little bit Of our history.

A lot of people know you That you've been on the show Many times And obviously people Know my story Who watch the show And have heard me talk About my

history.

But one of the things People probably don't know Is that when I met you.

Well.

Let me back that up.

We've known each other Since grade school.

Right.

Because we graduated together But when I When we reacquainted After high school We were

working together At a bakery Well at a Delivering for a bakery Flowers Bakery.

And we ended up In a truck together.

And we ended up.

Talking theology I had only been saved.

A short time.

I think you as well.

Really had only been saved.

A while.

This was.

Yeah this was 2000 Yeah Yeah I was baptized On April 1st

of 2000.

Of a.

Strangest of all days.

To do it April 4th.

Yeah that's funny.

I was thinking about that.

But.

So yes.

You rolled into You rolled into flowers.

What.

2001 2000.

Somewhere around there.

Somewhere around there.

You know I know it was before 9 -11.

Yes it had to be Late 2000.

It had to be I was delivering.

I was delivering.

I was delivering bread.

For flowers on 9 -11.

It had to be 2001 then Because I was You would have been Delivering shortly After I trained you Because I was Helping

train you.

Yeah.

So.

He was my trainer y 'all.

He was my man.

He wanted to be a bread man.

Well.

For a minute anyway.

Did I just brush my hair.

On camera.

I just noticed.

Like it's so Humid.

You don't have this problem.

Because you don't got.

No.

I ain't had hair In 15 years.

I have this mane.

And when it's humid.

And it's terribly humid.

Because it's like.

100 % humidity today.

It's like.

I'm sorry.

This is totally.

But anyhow I guess it had to be.

It had to be July August of September.

Of 2001.

I'm so vain.

Okay so.

We're in the bread truck.

Right.

I had grown up.

Not a Baptist.

Right.

And I had always heard One saved always saved Was not true.

Right.

Because.

And we're gonna see this.

They make the argument That one saved always saved Is not believed by Many other denominations.

And that is true Many other denominations Don't believe in one saved.

Always saved.

And I had kinda.

Just always thought.

Yeah I mean.

That's too easy.

If you believe in.

One saved always saved.

That's I mean.

Then you just say I believe in Jesus.

And then go live like the devil.

And what's it gonna matter.

One saved always saved.

That was the attitude.

That I thought.

One saved always saved.

Meant.

And that's the attitude.

They deal with in the video.

Correct.

That's really the.

That's the.

When I said it was not.

A lot of nuance.

That's because.

That's what they come after.

But the way you explained it.

And I give you.

A lot of credit for this.

Because I mean We were in the truck For four hours that day Delivering bread.

But the way you explained it Helped me to overcome That objection.

It helped me to see That there was a broader Understanding That I maybe had missed

Of this particular subject.

So I credit you With helping me In my theological journey.

I hope I've done the same At some point.

Well.

I helped you with that.

You have helped me.

Far beyond.

Just the doctrine.

Of the Holy Spirit.

Well I'm grateful.

For our friendship.

For sure.

And I think we.

Iron sharpens iron.

Is it.

And I think.

And I was.

Still a pretty Baby believer.

At that point.

But you had been In a Baptist church.

I've been in a Baptist church But I had to credit my brother.

And we'll leave his Name out of this Because he don't want His name out here.

But I'll credit my brother.

I'll put it in the.

Show notes.

I'll put his address.

I'll put Google Maps.

I know where he lives.

Because I did his wedding.

But He At this particular Point in time And I can't remember Everything I said to you But I'm I do

remember There was a lot of He was having a lot of Discussion with people That were on the Other

side of Once saved Always saved Was Bubkus And he had been

Going back and forth With these people Trying to convince them And just having Conversations with me.

I picked up on The understanding And we had lengthy Conversations about it Because

I'd kind of Gravitated toward Well I want to be able To defend this And defend it well And then Lo and

behold Months later We're in the truck And You brought it up Or one of us brought it up

And you were like Well I don't agree with that.

Well let me help you out.

Yeah.

And I don't remember.

I can honestly say.

I don't remember what you said.

I don't remember.

I don't remember the crux I've actually thought this week.

Because I knew the video Was coming.

I was like.

What is it that he said to me.

And.

And probably.

It was something.

To.

The effect If I remember.

Any of it at all.

Yeah I think you talked about In the Gospel of John Where we talked about Jesus holding us in his hand And he being in the Father's hand.

And we're going to talk about that.

Because they kind of They go against that In the video.

And I do know.

The.

This teaching of Scripture Of being kept by the power of God Was very I know that was.

That's always been like At the forefront of my mind When we talk about Something like this.

So I know I threw that one out there.

Yeah.

At some point That if you're kept By the power of God And it's God who saves you Then how can you

Release yourself from that.

Yeah.

Under your own power.

Yeah.

Who's holding on to whom.

Right.

And.

Yeah.

One of my professors Had this great analogy.

He.

He talked about.

Talking about the holding thing.

The hand.

God holding us.

Dr. Jerry Powers.

And I quote him a lot Just because he was A big influence on me.

And he talked about how When you walk across the street With your child.

Like.

Like if you're holding Your child's hand And you're playing in a park You might not even Hold it very tightly.

You might even let them.

Hold on to your finger.

And you know.

They.

They're kind of the ones.

Holding on.

But when there's a danger.

When there's.

When the possibility Of death Is on the line Or the possibility Of danger's on the line Then you're going

to Hold on to him A lot tighter Than he holds on to you.

And I.

I thought about this.

The other day.

Because I was with Theo.

At the park.

And you know.

He'd run around.

Do whatever he want.

But when we were.

Going to the car.

I'm holding on to him.

And he didn't have a choice.

He was going to.

He was going to be In my hand.

Because I had his safety.

On my mind.

So.

I've had my children In those situations I can feel their Grip loosen And they're trying To pull away And nope You're

not going anywhere.

You don't see that Chevy.

You're like.

No they don't.

And spiritually.

We miss a lot of Chevys.

They see the squirrel.

I want to go play.

With that.

Yeah.

So anyway.

Well I want to play.

Since we're.

We're here.

I want to play.

The introduction.

To the video And I want to show What I think is Really the My main issue Like I said Is the lack

of nuance.

This is a.

This is a clip It's about a minute long But this is the Entire introduction To this whole Conversation That

they're going to give us It's going to come up On the screen for everybody.

Who's watching.

We'll be able to hear it In our earpieces.

And I just want you to Just sort of take in What they are saying With this intro.

Once saved Always saved Flies in the face Of the constant Teaching of the

Bible From Genesis 1 To Revelations.

End.

The major Evangelical voices Are saying You're saved by grace alone.

It doesn't really matter How you live After you're saved You're saved.

We might have Our lives cut short As a result of sinful living We might lose Some of our heavenly reward.

But no matter what we do No matter how we live We're still saved.

I grew up in an assembly Which taught that That I've accepted Christ And now I'm Guaranteed for all eternity.

And the danger of that is That you tend to relax.

Once saved Always saved Life makes the wide way Acceptable.

We're Christianizing The wide way.

We have cut The whole idea Of transformed living.

We've cut it off At the knees.

I believe it's A lot of the explanation Of the hypocrisy In the American church And much of the church Around the world today.

Because there's a lot of people That are living like hypocrites Because they've been taught That they don't have to Live holy lives.

I mean we're talking about Heaven and hell.

We're talking about Eternal life.

It's not over Till it's over.

No Christian life Should be judged In advance of death.

The idea That you can be forgiven Reconciled.

Cleansed.

Now live An unrepentant Sinful life And somehow be a child of God

Is completely contrary To the whole testimony Of Scripture And something that was Unknown through much Of church history.

Alright.

So that's the introduction.

And.

It's.

What's interesting.

About.

One thing That we're going to talk about.

In a little bit.

But it just struck me.

The one man who said Churches all over the world

Have people living in hypocrisy.

Because they've been taught One saved always saved.

But in just a little while.

In the video.

They're going to say Most churches around the world Don't teach this.

So right away.

It's like Okay wait a minute.

Is it.

They're teaching this And they're leading people To hypocrisy.

Or.

This is actually A very minority position.

Because they're going to argue For the minority position.

And.

I think it's like.

Okay.

I mean.

I guess you can have it both ways.

But you are Seeking to have it both ways.

You want your cake And eat it too.

So Right away though.

And.

The thing that.

That you and I.

Have chatted about.

When they say.

One saved always saved.

They are addressing A particular understanding That does have

adherence But is not The historic view That is Promoted by

Calvinism Reform theology.

Or.

Even most Baptists Even if they're not Calvinists Don't promote What they're saying.

And here's.

Proof of that He said This promotes That you can believe.

And then.

It doesn't matter.

How you live I ain't never in my life.

Heard a.

Heard a Baptist.

Worth his salt.

That said that.

I've never.

Ever.

And again You've been a Baptist Longer than I have.

Well when we were having A discussion in the truck.

Going back to our history I wasn't a Calvinist then.

Yeah.

In any way, shape, or form.

If anything I would have been anti I'd have been Arminian In my theology.

Yet.

Because you were just wrong.

I held to Eternal security That once you were saved If you're truly a

believer And entwined by the spirit of God You were kept by the power of God You cannot lose your salvation.

But Nowhere Was I ever taught That that meant you could do Whatever you wanted to do.

There's no Because scripture doesn't teach that You can be kept by the power of God But you're also going You're also told If

you love me Keep my commandments.

Yeah.

You're also told If you abide in my love You'll Keep my commandments.

This is all over the scriptures Even Ephesians 2.

For by grace You've been saved through faith.

Well the end of it Works prepared beforehand.

You're going to Do the work of the kingdom Because you are Indwelt by the spirit of God

And you've now been Empowered to do that.

And you're not going To live in sin.

Because As 1st John tells us Those who continue A habitual practice of sin Do not belong to

God Because If you're born again You cannot continue In practice in sin.

But that does not.

But that doesn't mean You can lose your salvation Either.

Yeah.

They're trying to say that.

If you believe.

If.

If you believe Once saved Always saved That means that Well now that I've Signed the card And walked down the aisle And got dumped

I can go out And do whatever I want to do.

Nowhere have I ever Been taught that Prior to Calvinism Or even after I came To understand the doctrines of grace.

Sure.

So Yeah I'm with you on that But I've never Heard that.

Now I want to Take a step back.

I I.

I do know that it is.

Taught in some places.

What I'm saying is I've never seen a Baptist.

Worth his salt.

I've never seen somebody.

Who really understands Baptist history.

Or the.

Or what the.

Baptists are teaching In this doctrine Which is a.

Which is Is.

Is the result of Calvinism.

And I'll talk about that.

In a minute.

But.

I will say.

To To.

To be balanced.

And to be fair.

There was a time.

I remember.

A preacher.

On the radio.

And if I said his name You would know him.

And it was a preacher.

Who.

Fairly well known.

Said.

I just want you To come forward.

And receive Jesus.

And hey.

Even if you wake up tomorrow.

And realize you don't want him.

You've still got him.

I've.

I've never forgotten That quote.

Because I wanted.

To pull my truck over.

And vomit.

It was like.

It was bad.

So I do know.

That there is.

A minority.

Within the Once saved Always saved.

Camp.

That does lead.

To What.

They would call.

Or at least what Michael Brown calls A hyper grace.

Right.

Message.

I would call it.

Easy.

Believe.

Ism.

Right.

Easy.

Believe.

Ism.

Is really What they're Against.

If you.

If you.

If you address Most of their Arguments Through the video It's not really The

doctrine Of eternal security Or perseverance Of the saints.

Or even.

Once saved Always saved.

Which is just.

A new.

Another nuance.

Of saying it.

It's really.

The issue Of easy.

Believe.

Ism.

The idea.

That you can Just say You believe Make an assent Of the mind And that mean That you are Saved.

And the.

Reformers Absolutely Repudiated that.

They did not.

Believe that.

They had.

Three different Ways that they Described.

The idea.

Of faith.

They would say That there is.

A.

There is the Understanding Of something There is The believing Or assenting.

To the fact.

That that thing.

Is true.

But then there's Trusting in that thing.

And there's three Latin phrases.

Ascensus.

Fiducia.

And.

I always forget.

The other one I think it's I forget.

But it.

But it's.

It's the idea.

Of And I.

I use the.

Parachute analogy I know a parachute.

Works.

I believe it.

Will work.

But I ain't.

Jumping out.

No plane.

Right like.

That's the.

That's the third.

You ain't got.

No faith.

No I ain't.

Jumping out.

You ever see.

The movie.

Congo Where Tim Curry Is on the.

Plane.

And he gets.

To the side.

Of the.

Window.

Or the.

Door.

The plane's.

Going down.

And he's.

Holding on.

The door.

And the guy Behind me.

Goes.

Push me.

And he says.

The guy.

Goes.

Harder.

You don't want.

To get out Of the plane.

And that's me I know.

A parachute Works.

And that's the.

First step Right you can't.

Believe in something Without knowing it.

Right.

And I believe.

A parachute.

Will work.

Because I've seen It happen.

I've seen.

People get.

Saved by parachute.

Jump out of.

Airplane.

I know.

It works.

But I don't.

Believe enough.

To go up.

An airplane.

And jump out.

Right.

That's the way.

In a very Simple way.

That the.

Reformers Would say.

You can.

Know Jesus is The savior.

You can.

Believe That Jesus Will save.

But unless.

You trust.

In his.

Saving power.

And that's Why we call It sola fide Justification.

By trusting In the finished Work of Christ.

Or justification.

By faith alone.

Unless you Have that trust Then you're Not truly.

Saved.

And so They are.

Equating.

This easy Believism.

This first.

Step.

Of just Assenting To Jesus Is who he is.

As that's.

What we mean.

When we say.

Once saved Always saved.

And that's.

Not my.

Working.

Definition Of once.

Saved always Saved.

When they also Go a step.

Further.

They also Say that Someone who Has truly Been born again Can walk Away They make

That leap Too.

So yes It begins With easy Believism This belief That you Can just Say it And you're Good

Which is not True.

But then they'll Go a step.

Further.

Adding to The fact That they Believe that You can be Indwelt by the Spirit of God.

And hold Nine yards And walk Away.

And I'm Like no You gotta Harmonize all.

Of scripture.

Together And we'll do Some of that Here in a Little bit But anyway.

Yeah so.

I did.

Want to.

Mention.

The.

Three ways This is Described.

And I.

Think what The historical Evolution Has been.

So the.

Word evolution.

Those people.

When we.

Talk about Once saved Always saved.

Typically that's In baptist Churches.

That's a.

Language that's.

Used.

Right.

It's believed In reform Churches as Well but You typically don't Hear that language

And I think the Reason is.

And again I Don't have proof for This.

I can't go to a Textbook and show you.

I'm I'm I'm basing.

This on.

Just what I know.

About history and If somebody wants to Try to come along and Correct me that's fine.

But I think I think this Will bear out true The doctrines.

Of reform.

Theology.

Taught.

That because.

God.

Saves us by Choosing us in Eternity past By setting his Affection upon us By

effectually Calling us And giving us the Gift of regeneration And the.

And the and the.

Person of the Holy Spirit coming to Live within us That that not only Provided a guarantee Which we're gonna talk

About that word in a Little while too But it also provided.

A.

A staying power.

A per.

A persevering.

Power.

Right.

And and and some People don't like the Word perseverance of the Saints because they Think it puts the Onus on

the person.

Some people prefer it To be called the Preservation of the Saints as God is the One

preserving.

But I don't mind Perseverance in for this Very reason.

I don't mind Perseverance of the Saints because that it's.

It's it is God who works Within you both to will And to do his good Pleasure right.

The Philippians passage Says work out your Salvation with fear and Trembling.

For it is God Who works within you Both to will and to do

His good pleasure.

And he who began to Work in you will Complete it.

Yeah and so.

Those.

Tell us that we're Going to persevere.

Not under our own.

Power Right.

But but by the Power of God.

And so this idea.

Perseverance.

Produces what we would.

Call a a and a.

Security.

Eternal security.

And that's the term Which I think many People are fine with.

And I'm totally fine.

With.

But then that gets Simplified to.

OSAS.

Right.

Which is Once saved.

Always.

Always saved.

And.

When you look at it.

Like that when you.

When you look at it.

From.

The perspective of.

Okay God is the One doing the Work of salvation God is.

And they repudiate That in the video.

They say oh you.

They just believe God's doing everything.

And they they they.

They argue and we're.

Like yeah yeah.

We agree.

Yeah what you're.

Saying yes we do.

Believe God is the.

One who regenerates God is the one who Gives us faith.

God is the one who Sanctifies and even Gives us the desire To do his will.

All of those things Are true.

We agree with Augustine.

And we're gonna look.

At Augustine here in a Minute too.

And we got so much.

To get to.

I gotta I gotta.

I gotta start Speeding this along.

A little bit.

But go ahead.

Well I was gonna Speak into we got So much to get to.

One.

One thing I want Your listeners to Understand is If you go back And watch the Video there is Gonna be much We

don't discuss Because there's We had to spend Four and a half Hours here.

Yeah.

So if you go Watch the whole Video and you're Like why didn't You touch on This passage This passage This passage We'll

understand We're trying to Keep this to an Hour and twenty Minutes.

Yeah.

We can't get to All of it But we're gonna Touch on what We think's the High points.

Yeah.

And ultimately.

To say We disagree.

Right.

And our review.

Of it is.

One.

I think They get into.

The.

I think as a Documentary.

I don't think.

It's good.

From a Filmmaking perspective I think it's.

Has an abrupt.

Beginning.

It doesn't really Explain its terms.

Well it doesn't Nuance anything.

It just jumps in.

This is once saved Always saved Once saved always bad.

Here's all the passages That prove it's wrong.

And it's just.

Bah bah bah.

Right.

And I think If you compare it to.

Something like.

American Gospel.

That didn't do Their due diligence.

I don't think so.

And again.

Somebody said.

Well you just like American Gospel.

And that's why.

You're biased.

I understand.

Confirmation bias.

And I understand.

We're all subject To that so.

But from my perspective It's not as good.

A film.

That so.

This is a review.

So we're reviewing.

It from a film Perspective also.

If I didn't know Anything about the subject I wouldn't come away.

Feeling like I had Learned a lot I would feel like Well here's some guys Who disagree with a point.

They didn't really try To give the other side.

And really have.

A balanced view.

And in fact.

Let's move to the next thing.

Because they Talk about Augustine And they basically say That the only reason Why

anyone believes In once saved Always saved Is because Augustine Absconded with The Christian faith

As he came in And he changed.

Everything.

And his position Is really based On a Gnostic Understanding.

So here's The Augustine video.

By the beginning Of the 5th century Augustine Who was the Bishop of Hippo Laid the foundation For

the modern Doctrine of Once saved Always saved.

You get then to Augustine Augustine of Hippo Who starts off Like the Fathers that came

Before him And then he evolves Into something Much more akin to What we would call Calvinism

today.

Augustine is the Big transition figure.

No question.

Early on He was not Someone who Affirmed

eternal security.

At first He taught the Freedom of the will In his early Christianity But in his Later

Christianity He began to Deny free will.

Augustine was A Manichean Gnostic For about 9 -10 years Of his life Before he became A professing

Christian And ended up Becoming the Top theologian Of the Roman Catholic Church.

Now in the Early 5th century A British monk Named Pelagius Criticized a

Statement that Augustine had made In his confessions.

Augustine had Declared to God Grant what you Command And command What you desire.

Well this made it Appear that Everything In our obedience Comes from God And nothing comes From man.

And rather than Admitting that he Had overstated things In his confessions He swung A hundred and

Eighty degrees In the opposite Direction of the Historic faith And declared that Man can do.

Absolutely.

Nothing.

Toward his own Salvation He said that Every bit of our Salvation comes from God From

our Amen.

Like I Didn't want to.

Stop at that point.

There's.

About 30 Seconds left.

But Um.

Yeah.

Right.

I'm watching.

That you can Lose your.

Salvation.

Oh they are.

They're like Happy about it I'm like Why.

Yeah Just.

Of all the Things to be Excited about You know what You can get.

Into the.

God gets you In there But you can Leave anytime You want to.

And Boy how Did we Should be Excited about it.

I don't I don't Get it Anyway Go ahead.

Well yeah.

I want to hear the.

Last bit of this.

About Augustine.

Because I have a.

Comment.

I want to.

Make about it.

Our initial Faith Our obedience And our Enduring to the End.

Augustine swung The pendulum In the opposite Direction More you know More in the Direction of his Manichaean Gnosticism Which had a

View that there Were the elect Among the Manichaeans And the elect You know they were Once they were Saved they were Always saved

They would Persevere in the Manichaean faith Which was not Christian at all.

This resurrection Of gnostic Teaching by Augustine Should have Sent shock Waves throughout

The church But Augustine Wrote in Latin And so much Of what he said Was never

read By the Greek Speaking Eastern Christians And they never Adopted his Theology.

His impact Might have Been much Less If there Hadn't been.

Much later An Augustinian Monk named Martin Luther.

That's the part I Wanted to get to.

And I'm glad.

That's over.

But here.

That That last.

Sentence.

And I.

I don't know.

Who this.

Older gentleman.

Is and I'm Sure he's a.

Godly man.

So you know.

But that last.

Sentence.

Augustine's.

Influence.

Would have Been lesser If it wouldn't Have been for An Augustinian.

Monk named.

Martin Luther.

Dude are you.

Serious.

Are you.

Serious.

The influence.

Of Augustine In church History.

Is.

Almost beyond.

Compare Among the The first.

Millennium Teachers.

I mean it.

Really is.

When compared To so many Of the other.

What might.

Be considered.

An early.

Church.

Father and.

Augustine Really is more.

You know.

Mid first Millennium.

He's not.

Really an.

Early early Church father.

Depending on.

How you.

Define that.

Term.

But he's.

Certainly among The most.

Influential Teachers.

And to say.

His influence.

Wouldn't have Been what it.

Was without Martin Luther.

Who was.

A thousand.

Years later.

That is.

To me.

A misrepresentation.

Of the Facts.

Second of.

All.

This.

This.

Claim About the Gnosticism.

Of.

Augustine There is The reality That prior.

To his.

Christianity Augustine Was part Of.

I think.

He was.

What's called A hearer.

In the Gnostic.

Manichaean System.

Which was.

Not a full.

Member.

But he was.

Part of.

This.

Manichaean Gnostic Belief System.

And when.

He became.

A Christian He debated Against the Manichaeans Against the Gnostics And he Wrote

against Them and he Talked about Them and much.

Of his.

Writings and his Teachings.

Repudiated.

What they.

Had to.

Say.

And where the.

Argument comes.

In and there's a Book out.

I forget the.

Name of the.

Author.

But it's Promoted by a lot Of provisionists And stuff who Want to try to Say that Calvinism Is just Manichaean Gnosticism.

Dr.

James White's.

Talked about this.

On his show.

He's talked.

About many.

Of the.

Differences.

And things.

And time Doesn't.

Allow to get.

Into this.

But what I.

Think is Tremendously Unfair by This by Going in and Saying well this Is just.

Rebranded.

Gnosticism.

Is it.

Really doesn't It doesn't Address the Fact that

The issues that Augustine was Dealing with Particularly the Issue of the Pelagian Controversy which

Is over the Nature of man Augustine was Not citing his Gnosticism But rather he was Citing the

Text of scripture To show that Pelagius' view Of man As being Essentially

unaffected By the fall.

Or that the.

Fall had not Affected him to The point where He was unable To respond to God without a Prevenient grace of God

enacting His ability to Do that.

These are the.

Things that.

And they're.

Saying oh it's.

Just his Gnosticism.

Is showing.

No Augustine Is seeing The scripture And he's seeing These things and He's making These

arguments From the text.

And are.

There arguments On both sides.

Yes there's.

Arguments that can Be made about.

Free will and.

Whether or not.

Man has the.

Ability but I think it's.

Terribly disingenuous.

To just simply Say well he Was he just Was he was.

Influenced by his.

Gnosticism.

Therefore all.

Calvinism is.

Is manichaean Gnosticism.

And that is I think It blurs The lines It

doesn't Really represent.

The facts.

And.

I think it is.

A.

I think I think It's a low point.

In this.

Documentary.

I if you want to.

Talk about the text.

Which they will.

They'll talk about Texts and how they Understand certain Texts.

That's fine.

But now you're.

Assigning almost.

Like a nefarious.

Almost like an.

Illuminati.

Type understanding.

We'll see what's Really happening.

Is there's a.

Secret.

Belief system.

That's underneath.

It all and you've got.

This sort of cloak and Dagger thing.

Where.

Where what's really Happening is Augustine Is a you know he's.

Really still a.

Manichaean Gnostic.

Even though he's Written about it and.

Talked about it and Even though everybody's.

Known this His his his history.

With the Gnostics He literally has.

The writings That we can read.

It's not.

Hidden.

And if there's.

Anyone whose works Have been I'm sorry I'm a little Passionate about this.

If there's anybody Whose works have.

Been read.

And examined.

Throughout church History it's Augustine himself.

And so I think.

To automatically.

Discount where.

He's coming from On the nature of.

Man and the Inability of man.

Simply to say Well that's.

Just Gnosticism Rehashed.

I think Is is unfair And ultimately untrue.

So that's.

I don't know if.

You have any.

Thoughts about that.

Well I'll be honest With you Church history is One of my Lacking elements So I'm having to Defer to you on that One but From what

you Were telling me He's refuted his Prior belief in Gnosticism Refuted all that He's

using the text To argue against Pelagius.

So what's the problem.

It just seems They're using this As a Way to discredit him Because If you

can't argue Your position From the facts Then you got to Go after the man.

Yeah this is.

This is an ad hominem.

Attack.

This is.

This is.

It's an ad hominem.

Attack.

He was a Manichaean Gnostic.

Therefore.

He can't have A legitimate position On this now.

Which would be.

Like me saying You know You were once Not a Baptist And now you are.

Well that means.

All of your.

Baptist philosophies.

And teachings.

Come from whatever You believed before.

Right.

Or the fact that I used to be Arminian in my theology.

And now I'm Reforming my theology.

Well I can't talk about it.

Because I used to be this.

Yeah.

Whatever Yeah.

And what's funny is A lot of Non -Calvinists Want to make Their

point By saying Well I used to be.

A Calvinist.

Right.

Well.

Augustine used to be.

A Manichaean.

But he wasn't no more.

So that's just.

A little.

Just thought about that.

Alright so.

One thing.

I didn't say earlier.

In.

I'm just noticing.

Something in my notes.

I want to go back to Real quick When we talk about Our doctrine

of.

Once saved always saved.

Perseverance of the saints.

All those things We do believe.

In.

A doctrine of apostasy Which means That we both believe That there is a sense In which a

person Can claim to be a believer Can live as if he were A believer And at some point Demonstrate that.

He.

Is not saved And therefore we would say Was never saved.

But that's oversimplifying it.

But to the point We don't say That there's no way That a person Can fall away

From the outward.

Expression of faith.

Right.

Okay I just.

We didn't say that.

And I have an example of that When I was working As a bread company I was training With a guy.

I wasn't training.

Well he had a route And I was an extra man.

So I didn't have My own route.

So I was training To run his route.

And we got to talking About the bible And all that stuff.

And this guy Was as foul mouthed And as nasty As you could believe.

But all of a sudden You know I started kind of Witnessing to the guy.

And he just starts Quoting chapter and verse.

To me.

And I was like Dude You know scripture Better than I do.

He's like Well I used to be A youth pastor For like 20 years.

And I said Well what happened I just quit believing.

In it.

And walked away And I'm like Wow You know But

Okay There's an example Of a man Who Had deceived himself For a very Very long time

And then at some point Just Done with it And that's a long time To be in it.

It might have been 20 years It might have been 7 or 8 10 years But whatever.

It was a length of time It was years That he was A Christian And he had become A youth pastor But he just

Walked away from it And denied all of it.

And you know.

I talk a lot About Dan Barker.

Dan Barker is.

Head of one of the.

Largest atheist.

Groups.

In America.

But he was once An evangelist.

He was.

Part of a Charismatic group Katherine Kuhlman Back in the 70s.

She was like The female Benny Hinn.

And he was One of her.

Acolytes.

You know.

One of the ones.

Coming up underneath her.

And so.

I mean.

Yeah.

I mean.

He now Is an outright atheist.

And so.

We have to come.

To one of two conclusions Our doctrine of apostasy Has to either be What theirs is.

He was.

Genuinely Born again.

The Holy Spirit of God Genuinely Lived within him.

And this is.

Key.

The Holy Spirit.

Not only.

Changed his heart But came To reside Within him.

And at some point That wasn't enough.

Right.

And he.

Ejected the spirit.

And he.

Gave his heart.

A flashback.

Yeah.

I didn't talk about that.

Yeah.

He ejected the spirit.

He's like Goose.

In Top Gun.

He's like.

Grab the ejection handle.

Yeah.

He ejected the spirit.

That's one poster I don't have.

Top Gun.

I don't have.

I need Top Gun.

Right over there.

I got a hole for it.

Sorry.

Anyway.

Ejects the spirit of God.

Yeah.

Gives his heart a flashback.

Puts his heart of stone back in.

And goes on about his business.

Yeah.

That don't make any sense to me.

Thinking about that though.

Just the ejecting the spirit.

But that's.

That's.

You either have to believe that.

Or you have to believe.

On some level His faith was not True faith.

Right.

And so.

I am more.

Willing.

To go there.

And I have some friends.

Who are Lutheran Who don't believe In once saved Always saved.

And I've interviewed.

A few guys.

And I remember one time Hearing one of them say I think it was actually.

Even on my.

My Lutheran Bow tie dialogue.

Hearing one of them say.

You know.

I just can't say To someone You were never saved.

Right.

I just rather believe That they were saved.

And now they're not.

I can't believe I can't say to someone You were never saved Because I don't know Their heart.

And I get I get.

At least.

The sympathy.

For that.

Right.

Because then His next question How does anybody Know they're ever saved.

Right Like.

How do you know.

You're not just faking it.

That's the question.

And I get.

Where he's coming from.

On that.

But the issue is The difference then Becomes really Just a difference Of what you

think That person was Not what you think They are.

They were.

Because we would.

All agree.

They ain't saved.

Right now.

The question is Was they ever.

Right.

Terrible English.

Was they ever.

Were they ever.

And going back To the guy In the bread truck I remember his name But I'm not going To mention it Because who knows He may watch this.

And we're watching you.

But You know He tells me For years He was a Christian And he became A youth pastor.

But to go to What you don't know.

You don't know.

Their heart Well you know Their fruit.

Christ made it very clear.

You will know them By their fruit.

Okay.

Well he may have said He was a Christian And he became A youth pastor.

And a lot of people Can fake it Until they make it Kind of deal.

But I don't know What the fruit Of his life Outside of the Church building Was.

You know He may have been Made a profession But he may have been Doing whatever He wanted to do.

Or it could have been Like we'll get into.

The parable.

Of soils later He may have been Just fine Because everything Was going great For years But then it got rough

And persecution Or tragedy Or difficulty Is one way That the tares And the wheat Are

separated.

No that's true.

So I mean with persecution.

Or at least demonstrated.

Right.

So Anyway.

Alright so the next Part of the video I want to show Is where they talk About once saved Always saved Being a

minority.

This is a very Short clip.

But.

I.

I told you I have to Address this Because I have A response That I want to give.

Go for it.

So Calvin.

Diverged from.

The tradition That came Before him He even diverged From what other Reformation

Leaders.

Taught.

But then after him.

The Baptists Most of them I'm free will.

Baptist.

But most Of the Baptist.

Diverge.

With him.

From the Christian Tradition The Reformed Presbyterian Tradition Diverges With Calvin.

From the.

Mainstream.

Christian.

Tradition.

But then.

When you look.

At the rest.

Of Christianity.

Today.

They don't Believe in Once saved Always saved.

Or the.

Certain.

Perseverance Of the saints.

The majority Of Christians In America Or elsewhere Don't affirm The

idea Of eternal Security That's just Not part Of their DNA.

The whole Methodist Denomination I mean the Second largest Protestant Denomination In America Is the United Methodist Church.

You have The Restoration Movement Like Christian Churches Church Of Christ They're not Calvinist.

And then.

Even in the.

Pentecostal.

Charismatic Circles We would Largely hold To the idea.

Of You can.

Forfeit Your salvation.

The Anabaptist.

Movement.

Almost Uniformly Believes.

That it's Possible.

For a True believer To apostatize.

From the Faith.

It would be.

An odd Thing To accuse Lutherans.

Even.

Or Episcopalians Of being Calvinist.

So the Vast majority Of Christians Do not Believe in Once saved Always

saved.

Alright so.

The.

The.

Screen.

On the.

Screen.

You saw.

They have.

This tree.

And on.

One side.

Of the.

Tree It's.

The majority.

Of the.

Branches.

All going To the Left.

All going.

To the.

Left.

Ironically.

The.

Bible says The evil.

Turns his way To the.

Left Right.

No That.

That was.

That was.

Not nice.

But Yeah you.

Get the Branches.

And it's Saying the.

Vast majority.

Of the.

Church Goes this.

Direction.

But The It.

Had the Baptist.

The.

Calvinist And the.

Reformed.

Make this.

This.

Branch.

Off.

And they're.

The only Ones who.

Believe in.

Once saved.

Always saved.

So.

Here's.

Here's my.

Sort of.

If you.

Want to.

Repudiate That argument.

Well first.

Let me Let me.

Just say this I don't repudiate.

The argument.

In the sense That I do believe Believing in Perseverance of the Saints is minority.

From a history Perspective.

Especially if you.

Include Roman.

Catholicism And Eastern Orthodox Within the greater Umbrella Of historic Christianity.

Then certainly The perseverance Of the saints.

Is not The majority.

Position.

That doesn't.

Make it wrong.

Right.

It is.

It is.

A minority.

Position.

However.

So is Believers.

Baptism.

And I imagine.

Most of the guys.

Especially the guy Who says.

I'm a free will.

Baptist.

And I think.

Michael Brown.

As a Pentecostal Is probably.

Not an infant.

Baptizer.

I could Make that.

Branch a lot Smaller If I said Historically.

How many.

People.

Baptized Believers only.

Because.

The vast.

Majority.

As a Baptist.

I can say this Without any Fear of contradiction The vast Majority of Church history Infant baptism Was the norm.

Even on the Right hand side Of the tree You had the Presbyterians.

They're going to.

Go back the other way.

They're going to Lose that branch.

Right.

They're all.

Going to be over there.

So.

And then.

Here's the one.

That really Bothers me.

And my point is Their argument Is true as far As it goes But it doesn't It doesn't prove anything.

No.

Because here's The other side of it.

How many.

In that group Have historically Practiced speaking In tongues Michael Brown.

How many.

Of them.

Have historically Practiced.

All of the.

Charismatic Practices That you Claim are.

Supposed to be.

The norm.

That branch.

Is going to Get really.

Small really.

Quick.

Right.

And yet You're going.

To say Well that Makes it Untrue Because it's.

In the.

Minority.

At least.

If that's.

If the.

Argument.

You're making.

Is the Minority Position is The false.

Position.

Then bro.

You're on.

A pretty.

Small branch.

Yourself.

And it's.

Bending.

Pretty hard.

So that's my.

So when I saw That I was like Wait a second.

You're telling me.

A charismatic.

Says you can't Have a minority.

Position.

Come on.

Well when it Comes to speaking In tongues He ain't on A branch He's on A twig.

That's right.

That's right.

Because you're.

Talking about.

A hundred years Ago.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean the.

Rise in.

Pentecostalism.

Is you know.

It's just a little.

Over a hundred.

Years old.

And the Pentecostal.

Movement.

As it is Today you know.

Beginning in.

Azusa and all.

That but It's just to Me I thought.

That was.

I am.

Willing to.

Say yes.

I'm in.

The minority.

But the.

Minority.

Doesn't make.

Me wrong.

The minority Doesn't mean I'm Misreading the Text the Minority.

The.

Does say This though I'll say this.

Why do I think It's in the.

Minority.

And maybe.

You'll have a.

Different thought Than I do.

I think it's In the minority.

Because it's.

The harder Position.

It's easier.

To believe.

Sure you can.

Lose your.

Salvation.

Rather than.

Having to.

Nuance.

If you.

Lost your Salvation.

It was because.

You weren't.

Truly born again.

In the first place I think that's Harder to Articulate It's harder To understand.

So it's.

Easier just to.

Say well of Course you can Lose your Salvation.

Right.

And.

Easy.

Often becomes The majority.

And.

I wonder if There's a little Bit of an Element of The modern Christian element

Of Numbers.

And what I Mean by that Is In most of These churches And you know Being

in the Baptist church Forever You know You would You would Have a number Of how many

Salvations you Had that year And You wouldn't Want to Mess up Your numbers.

So If someone Came up And they Claimed to Know Christ And believe And

repent And all those Things and Yada yada yada And for a season Or two or three Lived like they Were but

then Walked away Well you don't Want to say they Never were Because that skews Your numbers.

That's right.

You'll want to Say well They just Lost it But we can Get it back.

Yeah.

You know.

And.

I remember.

Talking.

I don't know If that's Accurate or not But that's What they're.

Doing.

I just That just Came to my Mind is.

A lot.

Of these Denominations Are all about Numbers I mean.

In the.

Southern Baptist Church In the Southern Baptist Convention You got to Report your Numbers Every year They want To know how.

Many.

Salvation.

Baptisms Did you Have last.

Year And.

It's Who cares I want to Know who's Holy living.

Anyway.

No that's.

True.

I remember.

One time I had.

Dinner.

With a.

Pentecostal.

Pastor.

And we Were talking.

About our Children Just.

Happened to Be the.

Subject You know.

He has Adult.

Children.

And I.

Had.

Asked him.

About his Son And one Of his.

Sons.

Was a.

Preacher.

But the.

Other one.

Wasn't in.

Church.

At that Time.

And so I asked.

Him about.

His.

Spiritual Condition.

I don't Remember how.

I asked.

Him.

But it Was a.

Nice.

Conversation.

I was Talking about.

My.

Children.

And their.

Spiritual Conditions.

And I.

Said What about.

Your.

Son.

And he Said he's.

Not in.

Church.

Right now.

And what.

He was.

Insinuating Because I Learned this Through the Conversation.

When you're.

In church.

You're Going into.

Apostasy.

You might.

Not be.

And it.

Was really.

Just.

Interesting To hear.

Because.

And again.

You might.

Think I'm.

Overreading.

The.

Conversation.

No later.

It was.

Pretty clear.

That's what He meant.

Like right.

Now he's.

Not right With God.

But.

Previously He was.

Yes.

Right.

So.

We got.

More to get.

To and.

Times coming.

And going.

Quick.

We haven't.

Really dealt.

With a lot.

Of the passages That they've Dealt with They have Two specific Passages.

That we.

Wanted to.

Look at.

And then a.

Particular issue.

That they.

Come in at.

The end.

Which is the Issue of.

Future sins.

I know.

That's going.

To take.

Some time They talk About hebrews 6 But hebrews 6 is a

Broader category Of what we Would call Warning passages And by that The

warning Of apostasy.

And like I.

Said earlier.

We both.

Have a Doctrine of.

Apostasy.

So this Doesn't mean We have to Ignore these Passages.

But we.

Would understand.

Them.

Differently.

So we'll.

Hear what They have.

To say This is.

Just a.

Very quick.

Again.

We're Encouraging.

Everybody to.

Watch the Whole thing.

So we're.

Not trying.

To hide.

Anything.

So here Is a Short clip.

Of what.

They say About hebrews.

6 But this.

Is again.

They talk About hebrews.

6.

They talk About 2nd Peter.

They talk.

About several Passages.

Yeah.

Hebrews 10.

They go.

To several.

Passages.

And they.

Say see.

Here.

It says.

That this.

Person Fell away.

Or this.

Person Walked away.

Or this.

Person.

Was a Believer.

Now they're.

Not.

They're At least.

From their Understanding of.

The text.

So this.

Is what.

They call.

The proof.

Texts For their.

Position.

The book.

Of hebrews Is very Clearly written To christians That's That's clear On every Single page.

Of the book.

Of hebrews.

It's very Difficult To say That one.

Who has.

Been enlightened And tasted The heavenly Gift And made A partaker.

Of the holy.

Spirit And has Been sanctified.

By the blood.

Of christ.

And is a Brother.

It's hard To say That those People have Never been Genuinely.

Converted.

I don't Think there's Any way Around This being An apostasy Text.

Because even Though the word Is tasted Is used It means really Experienced.

I mean it says In the same book That christ Tasted death.

Well that didn't Mean he had a Little bit of Taste of death.

It means he Died When it says They received The holy Spirit.

The greek Word that is Used there Is the same Word that's used In hebrews Three one Of holy brethren Who had Received the Heavenly

calling.

Did they receive The heavenly calling Or not you know.

Hebrews six four Have been enlightened Tasted of the Heavenly gift.

That's definitely.

Born again.

Okay.

So.

Here's.

Where.

I think.

We we we.

Have to Consider one.

One thing.

I want to say.

This they brought Up a greek Thing so See this word Here is This is what's Used

here Therefore it's The same word That's used.

Here and it.

Means this but Even in the Sentence you can See because he Pulls it it's a Sentence it's two Different

context and It's being used.

I hate word studies In general.

I'm going to be.

Talking about this in My hermeneutics class Because man people Can use word studies To try to prove

Everything from you.

Know.

Jesus isn't god.

Because look at This word and this Word means this and.

Jesus used this.

Word of himself and I mean we saw that.

With the tuggy debate We were going to.

Do the tuggy debate.

And we didn't End up doing that.

For those who Don't know.

James white.

Debated a man.

Last name tuggy.

I forget his First name.

But he.

That man argued.

Jesus is not god.

He argued He argued.

He's just a dude.

He was just a man And here's the thing He could make.

The same kind of Documentary that These guys are making Go to the same Proof text that He's doing.

Make his argument From an overall Attitude.