Two Baptists Review “Once Saved Always Saved? A Documentary Film”

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Hey guys and welcome back to Your Calvinist Podcast My name is Keith Foskey and as always I am your

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Go and contact Steve at fellowshipstudios .com Alright, now that we've got that out of the way

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Let's get into the show I have a very special guest with me today Someone that you all may recognize

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I'm going to bring him on screen You guys know this guy? This is the

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Reformed Baptist He is the one who is in many of my hilarious videos And he is in our new intro song

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Which has gotten a tremendous amount of positive response And I want to thank everybody for that Everyone, if you don't know who this is

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This is one of my best friends in the world His name is Uncle Rich Rich Rodin Rich, thank you for being on the show with me today

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I appreciate it Well, I appreciate you bringing me back Yes, I am the Reformed Baptist Avatar And apparently

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I don't baptize babies And I like piggyback rides That's right I asked you to wear your sunglasses

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Just so people would recognize you You're the one who was shouting out five points of Calvinism Oh, by the way, speaking of that There was one thing

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Over on our Teespring store So Richard, today we're going to be talking about A documentary that came out recently

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In fact, it was very recently From what I can tell It is only like two weeks old

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It came out at the beginning Or end of March, beginning of April And the title of it was

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Once Saved, Always Saved But then it was marked out Like the Once Saved, Always Saved It was like this is

04:33

So it's a documentary Put out by a group of pastors and teachers Who don't believe in the doctrine of Once Saved, Always Saved And their point was to give

04:43

An argument against it And I have an outline of what Richard and I are going to be going through today

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So I want to make sure I don't miss any high points I've also got some videos that we're going to be playing From the documentary and in the description

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I will have a link to the whole thing And we encourage you to go watch We're not telling you don't watch it If you want to see what they have to say

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The entire documentary is only what, an hour and ten? An hour and ten minutes, yep Yeah, so they can go watch the whole thing

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And evaluate it for yourself We are two Baptists Obviously we disagree with A lot of what is said in the

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Documentary But we're not here saying that these men don't love Jesus We're not saying that these men are unsaved

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Or anything like that, even though I don't know them all I can't say What their spiritual condition is

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I know a few of them, Michael Brown and a few other guys But ultimately, we're not here to bad mouth anybody

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Or to downplay their character We're simply saying We look at the scripture and we come to different conclusions

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About this particular issue And that raises the question right away

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Of sort of Even though we don't know who they are We do know Like Michael Brown Michael Brown is a very famous Pentecostal, charismatic leader

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So we kind of know where he's coming from One of the guys introduces himself As an

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Arminian Like a historic Arminian Another one says, I think that he was An Anabaptist I think one of the guys identified himself

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No, Free Will Baptist He also said he was Reformed To some degree

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But a Free Will Baptist I thought he was a Reformed Arminian Reformed Arminian, oh okay

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And you know what's funny, when I was Years ago, when I was first studying Reformed Theology And trying to understand the different positions

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I read a book by Robert Piccirilli That was called Grace, Faith, and Free Will And he identified himself

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As a Reformed Arminian Which is seemingly a Contradiction in terms

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Right But that term at least is out there But you made a good point the other day And I thought we could kind of start with this

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You said that you thought maybe this video Might be Sort of reactionary

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To a lot of the other documentaries That have been coming out recently Which are like American Gospel, American Gospel 2

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Which in many ways was hitting The people that I know Michael Brown often shares

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Relationships with and obviously There's been issues about how close he is With certain people and who he promotes

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And things like that and we know American Gospel Went after that and then of course there was that Four hour interaction between him

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And Justin Peters and Roy, not Roy Ortland I know his name and I know he's a friend on Twitter and I just, he's the one who

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Kind of got it all started He called in to Michael Brown's Podcast or radio show or something

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And they had an interaction for a few minutes Yeah and I just Osmond And Sam Storm So there's a lot going on And I think it is possible that This documentary, like you said when we were

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Talking on the phone, might be a reaction To that because there's that There were some other movies too, what were the other ones?

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There was American Gospel American Gospel 2, Calvinist Cessationist, Les Lamphere Who I've had on the show, did those

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And then of course, like I was going to mention You did it before I did, was the Four hours where they went back and forth

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About false teachers, forever And I think this is, in my

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Opinion, I don't know what their Impetus behind doing it was, but in my opinion I think this is a response to They're seeing that all this

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Other content is being made from the other side So I think they're Wanting to, okay we need to make our own

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Content from our perspective Which is absolutely Their right to do that, and we're not saying that's wrong

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It's just, and again, we're not assigning motive We're just saying it seems like There's a reason, yeah the timing is interesting

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Because there has been several years Of documentaries that have been favorable Toward Calvinism And I thought

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You know, before we get into Because I want to talk about our history in a minute, but I thought The introduction

08:53

To this was very Abrupt Just from a filmmaker's perspective

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And I'm not a filmmaker, I'm a YouTuber There's certainly a difference, but I do enjoy How films are made and how documentaries

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Are made, and we're going to play the introduction Here in a moment, and by the way, they put this Entire video out to be downloaded

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I downloaded it from their website For, you know, for the Use of this, and I hope that there's no issue

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With us using clips, we're going to be playing them Within their context and responding to them And we're going to link to the whole thing, so hopefully if anybody

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Has any issue, we're using this With, we're commenting On it, hopefully

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There will be no issue with us playing clips from it But anyhow, the The introduction is just like One saved, always saved

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And it's very, you know, Like this is bad You know, and I would say if I had to give

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An overall Like response I would say it Certainly lacks nuance

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Yes, they come at it from one Perspective and one perspective only All the way through And they seem to be attacking one issue

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The one saved, always saved In a minute we're going to talk about maybe some differing views Within our own camp

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But yeah, it's very much You know, they've got the one Idea And boom, we're going to go

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On this But I wanted, before we do that, I kind of Want to give the audience a little bit of our

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History A lot of people know you, that you've been on the show many times And obviously people know my story

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Who watch the show and have heard me talk about my history But one of the things people probably don't Know is that when

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I Met you, well, let me back that Up, we've known each other since grade school Because we graduated together

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But when I, when we Reacquainted after high school We were working together at a bakery

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Well, at a delivering for a bakery Flowers Bakery And we ended up in a truck together

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And we ended up talking theology I had only been saved a short time I think you as well really had only been saved a while Yeah, this was 2000

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Yeah I was baptized On April 1st of 2000

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Of a Strangest of all days to do it, April 4th Yeah, that's funny But So yes, you rolled into You rolled into flowers, what?

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2001, 2000, somewhere around there Somewhere around there, you know I know it was before 9 -11

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Yes, it had to be late 2000 It had to be I was delivering bread for flowers

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On 9 -11 It had to be 2001 then, because I was You would have been delivering shortly after I trained you

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Because I was helping train you He was my trainer, y 'all He was my man

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He wanted to be a bread man For a minute, anyway Did I just brush my hair on camera?

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I just noticed You don't have this problem Because you don't got no I haven't had hair in 15 years

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I have this mane, and when it's humid And it's terribly humid, because it's like 100 % humidity Today, it's like I'm sorry, this is totally

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I guess it had to be July, August of September I'm so vain

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Okay, so we're in the bread truck I had grown up Not a Baptist And I had always heard

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One saved, always saved was not true Because, and we're going to see this They make the argument that one saved, always saved

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Is not believed by many other denominations And that is true Many other denominations don't believe in one saved, always saved

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And I had kind of just always thought Yeah, I mean, that's too easy If you believe in one saved, always saved

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That's, I mean Then you can just say I believe in Jesus And then go live like the devil And what's it going to matter, one saved, always saved

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That was the attitude that I thought One saved, always saved meant And that's the attitude they deal with in the video

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That's really the When I said it was not a lot of nuance Because that's what they come after But the way you explained it

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And I give you a lot of credit for this Because we were in the truck for four hours that day Delivering bread, but the way you explained it

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Helped me to overcome that objection It helped me to see

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That there was a broader understanding That I maybe had missed Of this particular subject

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So I credit you with helping me In my theological journey I hope I've done the same

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At some point Well, I helped you with that You have helped me far beyond Just the

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Dr. Matias theory Well, I'm grateful for our friendship, for sure And I think iron sharpens iron As the word of God says

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And I was still a pretty Baby believer at that point But you had been in a Baptist church

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I'd been in a Baptist church But I had to credit my brother And we'll leave his name out of this

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But I'll credit my brother I'll put it in the show notes I'll put his address,

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I'll put Google Maps I know where he lives Because I did his wedding But he

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At this particular point in time And I can't remember everything I said to you But I do remember There was a lot of He was having a lot of discussion with people

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That were on the other side of Once saved, always saved And he had been

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Going back and forth with these people Trying to convince them And just having conversations with me I picked up on the understanding

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And we had lengthy conversations about it Because I'd kind of gravitated

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Toward, well, I want to be able To defend this and defend it well And then lo and behold

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Months later, we're in the truck And you brought it up Or one of us brought it up And you were like, well,

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I don't agree with that Well, let me help you out And I don't remember, I can honestly say

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I don't remember what you said I don't remember the crux, I've actually thought This week, because I knew the video was coming

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I was like, what is it that he said to me And probably It was something to the effect

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If I remember any of it at all I think you talked about in the Gospel of John Where we talked about Jesus holding us in his hand

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And he being in the Father's hand And we're going to talk about that Because they go against that in the video

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And I do know This teaching of Scripture Of being kept by the power of God Was very,

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I know that was That's always been at the forefront of my mind When we talk about something like this So I know I threw that one out there

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At some point, that if you're kept by the power of God And it's God who saves you Then how can you

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Release yourself from that Yeah, who's holding on to whom One of my professors

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Had this great analogy He talked about, talking about the holding thing The hand, God holding us

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Dr. Jerry Powers, and I quote him a lot Just because he was a big influence on me And he talked about how when you walk

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Across the street with your child Like if you're holding your child's hand And you're playing in a park, you might not even hold it

15:45

Very tightly, you might even let them Hold on to your finger They're kind of the ones holding on But when there's a danger

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When the possibility of Death is on the line Or the possibility of danger is on the line

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Then you're going to hold on to him a lot tighter Than he holds on to you And I thought about this the other day Because I was with Theo at the park

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And he'd run around and do whatever he wanted But when we were going to the car I'm holding on to him

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And he didn't have a choice He was going to be In my hand

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Because I had his safety on my mind I've had my children in those situations

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I can feel their grip loosen And they're trying to pull away And nope, you're not going anywhere You don't see that Chevy?

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No they don't And spiritually we miss a lot of Chevys They see the squirrel, I want to go play with that So anyway

16:37

Well I want to play Since we're here I want to play the introduction to the video And I want to show what

16:43

I think is Really my main issue Like I said is the lack of nuance This is a clip, it's about a minute long

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But this is the entire introduction To this whole conversation That they're going to give us It's going to come up on the screen for everybody who's watching

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We'll be able to hear it in our earpieces And I just want you to sort of take in What they are saying with this intro

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Once saved, always saved Flies in the face Of the constant teaching

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Of the Bible from Genesis 1 To Revelations end The major evangelical voices are saying

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You're saved by grace alone It doesn't really matter How you live After you're saved, you're saved

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We might have our lives cut short As a result of sinful living We might lose some of our heavenly reward

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But no matter what we do, no matter how we live We're still saved I grew up in an assembly which taught that That I've accepted

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Christ and now I'm Guaranteed for all eternity And the danger of that is

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That you tend to relax Once saved, always saved Makes the wide way acceptable

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We're Christianizing the wide way We have cut The whole idea

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Of transformed living We've cut it off at the knees I believe it's a lot of the explanation of the hypocrisy

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In the American church and much of the church Around the world today because there's a lot of people That are living like hypocrites because they've been taught

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That they don't have to live holy lives I mean we're talking about heaven and hell, we're talking about Eternal life. It's not over till it's over No Christian life

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Should be judged in advance of death The idea That you can be forgiven, reconciled

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Cleansed, now live An unrepentant sinful Life and somehow be a child

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Of God is completely Contrary to the whole testimony of scripture And something that was unknown

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Through much of church history Alright So that's the introduction

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And What's interesting About one thing that we're going to Talk about in a little bit but It just struck me, the one man

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Who said churches all over The world Have people

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Living in hypocrisy because they've been taught One saved always saved But in just a little while in the video they're going to say

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Most churches around the world don't teach this So Right away it's like okay wait a minute

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Is it they're teaching this and They're leading people to hypocrisy Or this is actually

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A very minority position Because they're going to argue for the minority position And I think it's like Okay, I mean

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I guess you can have it both ways but you are Seeking to have it both ways, you want your cake and eat it too So Right away though And The thing that you and I Have chatted about When they say once saved always saved

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They are addressing A particular Understanding that does

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Have adherence but is not The historic view That is promoted by Calvinism, reform theology

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Or Even most Baptists, even if they're not

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Calvinists, don't promote what they're Saying and here's proof of that He said This promotes that you can believe

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And then it doesn't matter how you live I ain't never in my life Heard a

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Baptist worth his Salt that said that I've never ever, and again You've been a

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Baptist longer than I have Well when we were having a discussion in the truck going back to our history I wasn't a Calvinist then In any way, shape, or form

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If anything I would have been anti I would have been Arminian in my theology Yet I held to Eternal security

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That once you were saved If you're truly a believer and entwined by the Spirit of God You were kept by the power of God, you cannot lose your salvation

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But nowhere Was I ever taught That that meant you could do whatever you wanted to do There's no, because Scripture doesn't teach that You can be kept by the power of God But you're also told

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If you love me, keep my commandments You're also told If you abide in my love, you'll keep my commandments

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This is all over the Scriptures Even Ephesians 2 For by grace you've been saved through faith

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Well the end of it, works prepared beforehand You're going to Do the work of the kingdom

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Because you are indwelt by the Spirit of God And you've now been empowered to do that And you're not going to live in sin

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Because as 1 John tells us Those who continue a habitual practice of sin Do not belong to God Because if you're born again

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You cannot continue in practice in sin But that does not But that doesn't mean you can lose your salvation either

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They're trying to say that If you believe If you believe once saved always saved

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That means that well now that I've signed the card And walked down the aisle and got dumped I can go out and do whatever

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I want to do Nowhere have I ever been taught that Prior to Calvinism or even after I came to understand the doctrines of grace

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So I'm with you on that But I've never heard that Now I want to take a step back

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I do know that it is taught in some places What I'm saying is I've never seen a Baptist worth his salt

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I've never seen somebody who really understands Baptist history Or what the Baptists are teaching In this doctrine

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Which is the result of Calvinism And I'm going to talk about that in a minute But I will say

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To be balanced And to be fair There was a time I remember A preacher on the radio

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And if I said his name you would know him And it was a preacher Who fairly well known

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Said I just want you to come forward And receive Jesus And hey even if you wake up tomorrow and realize you don't want him

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You've still got him I've never forgotten that quote Because I wanted to pull my truck over And vomit

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It was bad So I do know That there is a minority

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Within the once saved always saved Camp That does lead to What they would call

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Or at least what Michael Brown calls A hyper grace message I would call it easy believism

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Easy believism Is really what they're Against If you address

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Most of their arguments Through the video It's not really the doctrine of eternal security

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Or perseverance of the saints Or even once saved always saved Which is just another nuance of saying it

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It's really the issue of easy believism The idea that you can just say you believe Make an assent of the mind

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And that mean that you are saved And the reformers Absolutely repudiated that They did not believe that They had three different ways

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That they described The Idea of faith They would say that there is a

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There is the Understanding of something There is the believing or assenting

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To the fact that that thing is True but then there's trusting In that thing and there's three Latin phrases

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Assensus Fiducia and I always forget the other one I think it's

24:01

I forget But it's the idea of And I use the parachute analogy I know a parachute works

24:08

I believe it will work But I ain't jumping out no plane Like that's the third

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You ain't got enough faith to jump out a plane No I ain't jumping out You ever seen the movie Congo Where Tim Curry is on the plane

24:20

And he gets to the side of the window or the door The plane's going down And he's holding on the door and the guy behind me goes

24:26

Push me And he goes Harder I didn't want to get out of the plane

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And that's me I know a parachute works and that's the first step You can't believe in something without knowing it

24:40

And I believe A parachute will work because I've seen it happen I've seen people get saved by a parachute, jump out of an airplane

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I know it works But I don't believe enough to go up an airplane and jump out That's the way

24:53

In a very simple way That the reformers would say You can know Jesus is the

24:58

Savior You can believe That Jesus will save But unless you trust in his saving power

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And that's why we call it Justification by trusting in the finished work of Christ Or justification by faith alone

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Unless you have that trust Then you're not truly saved And so They are equating

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This easy Believism, this first step Of just Ascending to Jesus is who he is

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As that's what we mean When we say once saved always saved And that's not the definition That's not my working definition

25:34

Of once saved always saved They also go a step further They also say that someone who has truly been born again

25:40

Can walk away They make that leap too So yes it begins with easy

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Believism, this belief that you can just say it And you're good Which is not true But then they'll go a step further

25:53

Adding to the fact that They believe that You can be indwelt by the spirit of God And hold nine yards and walk away

26:01

And I'm like No, you've got to harmonize all of Scripture together And we'll do some of that here in a little bit

26:07

Yeah so I did want to mention The three ways this is described

26:15

And I think what the historical Evolution has been The word evolution

26:22

Those people When we talk about Once saved always saved

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Typically that's in Baptist churches That's a language that's used It's believed

26:33

In Reformed churches as well But you typically don't hear that language And I think the reason is

26:40

And again I don't have proof for this I can't go to a textbook and show you I'm basing this on Just what

26:47

I know about history And if somebody wants to try to come along And correct me that's fine But I think this will bear out true

26:53

The doctrines of Reformed theology Taught that because God saves us

27:00

By choosing us in eternity past By setting his affection Upon us, by effectually calling us

27:06

And giving us the gift of Regeneration and the person Of the Holy Spirit coming to live within us

27:11

That that not only provided a guarantee Which we're going to talk about that word In a little while too

27:17

But it also provided a A staying power A persevering

27:23

Power And some people don't like the word Perseverance of the saints because they think

27:29

It puts the onus on the person Some people prefer it to be called The preservation of the saints

27:36

As God is the one preserving But I don't mind Perseverance and for this very reason

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I don't mind perseverance of the saints Because It is

27:48

God who works within you both to will And to do his good pleasure Philippians passage says

27:53

Work out your salvation with fear and trembling For it is God Who works within you both to Will and to do

28:02

His good pleasure And he who began to work in you will complete it And so those

28:08

Tell us that we're going to persevere Not under our own power But by the power of God And so this idea of Perseverance Produces what we would call

28:20

A security Eternal Security and that's the term

28:26

Which I think many people are fine with And I'm totally fine with But then that gets simplified

28:32

To OSAS Which is once saved Always saved

28:37

And When you look at it like that When you look at it from The perspective of Okay God is the one doing the work of salvation

28:47

And they repudiate that in the video They just believe God's doing everything And they argue

28:53

And we're like yeah yeah we agree Yeah what you're saying Yes we do believe

28:58

God is the one who Regenerates God is the one who gives us faith God is the one who sanctifies and even gives us The desire to do his will

29:04

All of those things are true We agree with Augustine And we're going to look at Augustine here in a minute too And we've got so much to get to I've got to start speeding this along a little bit

29:14

Well I was going to speak into We've got so much to get to One thing

29:20

I want your listeners To understand is If you go back and watch the video There is going to be much we don't discuss

29:26

Because we'd have to spend four and a half hours here So if you go watch the whole video And you're like well why didn't you touch on This passage and this passage and this passage

29:34

Well understand we're trying to keep this to An hour and twenty minutes We can't get to all of it but we're going to touch on what we think is the high points

29:41

Yeah and ultimately To say we disagree Right And our review of it is

29:47

One I think they get into the I think as a documentary

29:54

I don't think it's good from a filmmaking perspective I think it has an abrupt beginning It doesn't really explain its terms well

30:00

It doesn't nuance anything It just jumps in This is once saved always saved, once saved always bad Here's all the passages that prove it's wrong

30:07

And it's just blah blah blah And I think if you compare it to something like American Gospel That didn't do their due diligence

30:14

I don't think so And again somebody says well you just like American Gospel And that's why you're biased I understand confirmation bias

30:20

And I understand we're all subject to that But from my perspective it's not as good a film So this is a review

30:27

So we're reviewing it from a film perspective also If I didn't know anything about the subject I wouldn't come away feeling like I had learned a lot

30:33

I would feel like well here's some guys Who disagree with a point They didn't really try to give the other side

30:40

And really have a balanced view And in fact Let's move to the next thing

30:46

Because they talk about Augustine And they basically say That the only reason why anyone believes in once saved always saved

30:53

Is because Augustine Absconded with the Christian faith As he came in And he changed everything

31:00

And his position is really based on Gnostic understanding So here's the

31:05

Augustine By the beginning of the 5th century Augustine who was the bishop of Hippo Laid the foundation

31:12

For the modern doctrine of once saved always saved You get then to Augustine Augustine of Hippo Who starts off like the

31:21

Fathers that came before him And then he evolves Into something much more akin to what we would call

31:27

Calvinism today Augustine is the big Transition figure

31:33

No question Early on he was Not Someone who affirmed

31:40

Eternal security At first he taught the freedom of the will In his early Christianity But in his later

31:48

Christianity He began to deny free will Augustine was a Gnostic for about 9 -10 years

31:54

Of his life before he became a professing Christian and ended up becoming the Top theologian of the

32:00

Roman Catholic Church. Now in the early 5th century A British monk Named Pelagius Criticized a statement that Augustine had made

32:09

In his confessions Augustine had declared to God Grant what you command

32:14

And command what you desire Well this made it appear that everything In our obedience comes from God And nothing comes from man

32:22

And rather than admitting that he had Overstated things in his confessions He swung 180

32:28

Degrees in the opposite direction Of the historic faith and declared That man can do absolutely

32:34

Nothing Toward his own salvation He said that every bit of our salvation

32:40

Comes from God From our Amen Amen I just want to stop at that point

32:47

There's about 30 seconds left But Yeah They're like I can't believe he said that everything is from God Yeah That's exactly right

33:02

That's what he said and that's what we're saying So Yeah I agree with that 100 %

33:08

The thing that I get And this Is Just an observation

33:15

It's not really related to that It's just It seems to me like they're almost excited

33:21

To prove to everyone watching That you can lose your salvation Oh they are They're like happy about it

33:27

I'm like why Of all the things to be excited about You know what

33:35

God gets you in there But you can leave anytime you want to And boy howdy we should be

33:40

Excited about it Anyway go ahead I want to hear the last bit of this about Augustine Because I have a comment

33:47

I want to make about it Our initial faith, our obedience And our Enduring to the end

33:54

Augustine swung the pendulum in the opposite direction More in the direction of his Manichean Gnosticism which had a view

34:00

That they were the elect among the Manicheans And the elect Once they were saved they were always saved

34:05

They would persevere in the Manichean faith Which was not Christian at all This resurrection of Gnostic Teaching by Augustine Should have sent shockwaves

34:15

Throughout the church But Augustine wrote in Latin And so much of what he said was never

34:21

Read by the Greek Speaking Eastern Christians And they never adopted his theology

34:27

His impact Might have been much less If there hadn't been much later

34:33

An Augustinian monk Named Martin Luther That's the part I wanted to get to And I'm glad that's over But here

34:43

That last sentence And I don't know who this older gentleman is And I'm sure he's a godly man

34:48

So you know But that last sentence Augustine's influence would have been lesser

34:54

If it wouldn't have been for An Augustinian monk named Martin Luther Dude are you serious?

35:02

Are you serious? The influence of Augustine In church history

35:07

Is almost Beyond compare Among the first millennium

35:14

Teachers I mean it really is When compared to so many of the other

35:19

What might be considered an early church father Augustine really is more You know mid first millennium

35:25

He's not really an early early church father Depending on how you define that term But he's certainly

35:31

Among the most influential teachers And to say his influence wouldn't have been what it was Without Martin Luther Who was a thousand years later

35:39

That is to me A misrepresentation of the facts Second of all

35:45

This Claim about the Gnosticism Of Augustine There is the reality

35:55

That prior to his Christianity Augustine was Part of I think he was what's called a

36:02

Hearer in the Manichean system Which was not a full member but he was part of This Manichean Gnostic Belief system

36:09

And when he became a Christian He debated against the Manicheans against the

36:15

Gnostics And he wrote against them And he talked about them and Much of his writings and his teachings

36:22

Repudiated what they had to say And where the argument comes in And there's a book out I forget the name of the author but it's promoted by a lot of Provisionists and stuff who want to try to say

36:32

That Calvinism is just Manichean Gnosticism Um Dr. James White's talked about this on his show

36:38

He's talked about many of the differences And things and time doesn't allow to get Into this but what

36:43

I think is Tremendously unfair by This by going in and saying Well this is just Rebranded Gnosticism Is it really doesn't

36:55

It doesn't Address the fact that The issues that Augustine was dealing with particularly

37:02

The issue of the Pelagian Controversy which is over the nature of man Augustine was not citing

37:08

His Gnosticism but rather He was citing the text of scripture To show that Pelagius' view

37:14

Of man as being Essentially unaffected by the fall Or that the fall had not affected him to the point

37:20

Where he was unable to respond to God Without a prevenient grace of God Enacting his ability to do that These are the things that And they say oh it's just his

37:29

Gnosticism Is showing no Augustine is seeing the Scripture and he's seeing these things

37:35

And he's making these arguments from the text And um are there Arguments on both sides yes there's arguments

37:42

That can be made about free will And whether or not man has The ability but I think it's terribly

37:50

Disingenuous to just simply say Well he was influenced By his Gnosticism therefore

37:56

All Calvinism is is Manichean Gnosticism That is I think

38:02

It blurs the lines It doesn't really represent the facts And um

38:07

I think it is a I think it's a low point In this documentary

38:14

If you want to talk about The text which they will they'll talk about text And how they understand certain text that's fine But now you're assigning almost

38:21

Like a nefarious almost like An Illuminati type understanding We'll see what's really happening

38:27

Is there's a secret belief system That's underneath it all And you've got this sort of cloak and dagger thing

38:33

Where what's really happening Is Augustine is a you know he's really still A Manichean Gnostic even though he's written about it

38:39

And talked about it and even though everybody's Known this his His history with the Gnostics He literally has the

38:47

Writings that we can read it's not Hidden And if there's anyone whose works

38:53

Have been I'm sorry I'm a little passionate about this If there's anybody whose works have been Read And examined

39:01

Throughout church history it's Augustine himself And so I think To automatically

39:07

Discount Where he's coming from on the nature of man And the inability of man simply to say

39:12

Well that's just Gnosticism rehashed I think is unfair and ultimately Untrue So that's

39:20

I don't know if you have any thoughts about that If you want me Well I'll be honest with you church history

39:27

Is one of my lacking elements So I'm having to defer to you on that one but From what you were telling me he's refuted

39:32

His prior belief in Gnosticism Refuted all that He's using the text to argue against Pelagius So what's the problem

39:41

They're using this as a Way to discredit him because If you can't argue

39:47

Your position from the facts then you've got to go After the man This is an ad hominem attack

39:52

It's an ad hominem attack He was a manichaean Gnostic therefore He can't have a legitimate position on this now

40:00

Which would be Like me saying You were once not a Baptist And now you are

40:05

Well that means all of your Baptist philosophies And teachings come from whatever you believed before Right or the fact that I used to be

40:12

Arminian in my theology and now I'm Reforming my theology well I can't talk about it Because I used to be this And what's funny is a lot of Non -Calvinists

40:23

Want to make Their point by saying well I used to be A Calvinist Well Augustine used to be

40:30

A Manichaean but he wasn't no more So that's just a Little thought about that Alright so One thing

40:39

I didn't say earlier And I'm Just noticing in my notes I want to Go back to real quick When we talk about Our doctrine of Perseverance of the saints all those things

40:52

We do believe in A doctrine of apostasy Which means that We both believe that there is a sense in which

41:00

A person can claim to be a believer Can live as if he were a believer And at some point demonstrate that He is not saved and therefore

41:07

We would say was never saved but that's Oversimplifying it but to the point That we don't say

41:13

That there's no way that a person can Fall away from the outward expression Of faith We didn't say that And I have an example of that when

41:22

I was working as a bread company I was training with a guy I wasn't training well he had a route And I was an extra man so I didn't have my own route

41:29

So I was training to run his route And um We got to talking about the bible and all that stuff

41:35

And this guy was as foul mouthed As nasty as you could believe But all of a sudden You know

41:41

I started kind of witnessing to the guy And he just starts like quoting chapter and verse To me and I was like Dude You know scripture better than I do

41:51

He's like well I used to be a youth pastor for like 20 years And I said what happened I just quit believing it

41:56

And walked away And I'm like wow You know

42:02

But okay There's an example of a man who Had deceived himself

42:08

For a very very long time And then at some point just done with it And that's a long time to be in it

42:15

It might have been 20 years It might have been 7 or 8 or 10 years But whatever it was a length of time It was years that he was a

42:20

Christian And he had become a youth pastor And he just walked away from it And denied all of it

42:27

And you know I talk a lot about Dan Barker Dan Barker is head of one of the largest Atheist groups in America But he was once an evangelist

42:35

He was part of a charismatic group Katherine Kuhlman back in the 70's She was like the female Benny Hinn And he was one of her

42:43

Acolytes you know one of the ones coming up underneath her And so I mean Yeah I mean he now is an outright atheist

42:51

And so We have to come to one of two conclusions Our doctrine of apostasy has to either be

42:57

What theirs is He was genuinely born again The Holy Spirit of God genuinely lived within him

43:03

And this is key The Holy Spirit Not only changed his heart

43:09

But came to reside Within him And at some point That wasn't enough

43:16

And he Ejected the spirit Gave his heart of flesh back Ejected the spirit

43:23

He's like Goose in Top Gun He's like grab the ejection handle He ejected the spirit

43:29

That's one poster I don't have I need Top Gun Right over there I got a hole for it Ejects the spirit of God Gives his heart of flesh back

43:39

Puts his heart of stone back in and goes on about his business That don't make any sense to me Thinking about that though just the ejecting the spirit

43:45

You either have to believe that Or you have to believe on some level His faith was not true faith

43:52

And so I am more Willing to go there And I have some friends who are

43:57

Lutheran Who don't believe in once saved always saved And I've interviewed a few guys And I remember one time

44:03

Hearing one of them say I think it was actually even on my Lutheran bow tie dialogue Hearing one of them say

44:09

I just can't say to someone You were never saved I'd just rather believe

44:15

That they were saved and now they're not I can't say to someone you were never saved Because I don't know their heart And I get at least

44:24

The sympathy for that Because then his next question How does anybody know they're ever saved How do you know you're not just faking it

44:31

That's the question and I get where he's coming from on that But the issue is The difference then becomes

44:38

Really just a difference Of what you think that person was Not what you think they are

44:43

Because we would all agree they ain't saved right now The question is Was they ever

44:49

That's terrible English Were they ever And going back to the guy in the bread truck I remember his name but I'm not going to mention it

44:55

And we're watching you But You know he tells me

45:03

For years he was a Christian and he became a youth pastor But to go to what You don't know their heart

45:08

Well you know their fruit Christ made it very clear You will know them by their fruit Well he may have said he was a

45:15

Christian And he became a youth pastor And a lot of people can fake it until they make it But I don't know what the fruit of his life

45:22

Outside of the church building was He may have been made a professional He may have been doing whatever he wanted to do

45:29

Or it could have been Like we'll get into the parable of the soils later He may have been just fine Because everything was going great for years

45:35

But then it got rough And persecution Or tragedy or difficulty

45:41

Is one way that the tares and the wheat Are separated No that's true Or at least demonstrated

45:48

So anyway So the next part of the video I want to show Is where they talk about Once saved always saved being a minority

45:57

This is a very short clip But I told you I have to address this because I have a response

46:03

That I want to give So Calvin diverged from the tradition That came before him

46:09

He even diverged from what other Reformation leaders Taught But then after him the

46:16

Baptists Most of them, I'm free will Baptist But most of the Baptists diverge With him from the

46:21

Christian tradition The reformed Presbyterian tradition Diverges with Calvin from the Mainstream Christian tradition

46:28

But then when you look at the rest of Christianity today They don't believe in once saved always saved

46:33

Or the certain perseverance of the saints The majority of Christians In America Or elsewhere

46:40

Don't affirm the idea of eternal security That's just not part of their DNA The whole

46:46

Methodist denomination I mean the second largest Protestant denomination in America Is the United Methodist Church You have the

46:53

Restoration Movement Like Christian churches, Church of Christ They're not Calvinist And then the Pentecostal charismatic circles

46:59

We would largely hold to The idea of You can forfeit your salvation

47:04

The Anabaptist movement almost Uniformly believes That it's possible

47:10

For a true believer to Apostatize from the faith It would be an odd thing to accuse

47:17

Lutherans Even or Episcopalians Of being Calvinist So the vast majority of Christians Do not believe

47:26

In once saved always saved Alright So the screen

47:32

On the screen you saw They have this tree And on one side of the tree

47:38

It's the majority of the branches All going to the left Ironically The Bible says

47:46

The evil turns his way to the left, right? No That was

47:52

That was not nice But yeah, you get the branches And it's saying the vast majority of the church

47:58

Goes this direction But it had the Baptists The Calvinists And the

48:04

Reformed Make this branch off And they're the only ones who believe in Once saved always saved

48:11

So here's my Sort of If you want to repudiate that argument

48:18

Well first let me just say this I don't repudiate the argument in the sense that I do believe Believing in Perseverance of the

48:24

Saints Is minority From a history perspective Especially if you include

48:30

Roman Catholicism And Eastern Orthodox within the greater Umbrella of Historic Christianity Then certainly the

48:38

Perseverance of the Saints Is not the majority position That doesn't make it wrong It is a minority position

48:45

However So is Believers Baptism And I imagine most of the guys Especially the guy who says

48:51

I'm a free will Baptist And I think Michael Brown As a Pentecostal is probably not an infant

48:56

Baptizer I could make that branch a lot smaller If I said historically

49:02

How many people Baptized Believers only Because the vast majority

49:08

As a Baptist I can say this Without any fear of contradiction The vast majority of church history Infant Baptism was the norm

49:15

Even on the right hand side of the tree You had the Presbyterians They're going to go back the other way They're going to lose that branch

49:21

They're all going to be over there And then here's the one that really

49:26

Bothers me And my point is their argument Is true as far as it goes

49:31

But it doesn't prove anything Because here's the other side of it How many in that group

49:39

Have historically practiced speaking in tongues Michael Brown How many of them have historically practiced

49:48

All of the charismatic Practices that you claim Are supposed to be the norm

49:56

That branch is going to get really small Really quick And yet you're going to say

50:01

Well that makes it untrue Because it's in the minority At least if the argument you're making

50:06

Is the minority position is the false position Then bro You're on a pretty

50:12

Small branch yourself And it's bending pretty hard So when I saw that I was like wait a second

50:19

You're telling me a charismatic Says you can't have a minority position Come on Well when it comes to speaking in tongues

50:25

He ain't on a branch he's on a twig That's right You're talking about a hundred years ago

50:30

Yeah I mean the rise in Pentecostalism It's just a little over a hundred years old

50:36

The Pentecostal movement as it is today You know beginning in Azusa and all that But it's just to me

50:42

I thought that was I am willing to say yes I'm in the minority but the minority

50:48

Doesn't make me wrong The minority doesn't mean I'm misreading the text The minority does say this though I'll say this why do

50:55

I think it's in the minority And maybe you'll have a different Thought than I do I think it's in the minority because it's the harder position

51:04

It's easier to believe Sure you can lose your salvation Rather than having to nuance

51:10

If you lost your salvation It was because you weren't truly born again in the first place I think that's harder to articulate

51:16

It's harder to understand So it's easier just to say Well of course you can lose your salvation

51:22

Right And easy Often becomes The majority

51:30

And I wonder if there's a little bit of an element of The modern

51:36

Christian element of Numbers And what I mean by that is

51:41

In most of these churches And you know Being in a Baptist church forever

51:48

You know You would have a number of how many Salvations you had that year

51:54

And You wouldn't want to mess up your numbers So If someone came up and they claimed

52:02

To know Christ and believe And repent and all those things And yada yada yada And for a season or two or three

52:09

Lived like they were but then walked away Well you don't want to say they never were Because that skews your numbers

52:15

That's right You'll want to say well they just lost it But we can get it back I remember talking

52:23

I don't know if that's accurate or not If that's what they're doing That just came to my mind Is a lot of these

52:29

Denominations are all about numbers I mean in the Southern Baptist church In the Southern Baptist Convention You've got to report your numbers everywhere

52:36

They want to know how many Salvations and Baptisms did you have last year And stuff like that And it's who cares

52:41

I want to know who's holy living Anyway No that's true I remember one time

52:46

I had dinner with a Pentecostal pastor He was a holiness pastor And we were talking about our children

52:53

Which just happened to be the subject He has adult children I have adult children And I had asked him about his son

53:01

And one of his sons Was a preacher But the other one Wasn't in church at that time

53:09

And so I asked him About his spiritual condition I don't remember how I asked him But it was a nice conversation It certainly wasn't contentious at all

53:15

I was talking about my children and their spiritual conditions And I said well what about your son And he said well he's not in church right now

53:23

And what he was insinuating And because I learned this through the conversation When you're in church

53:29

You're okay you're saved But if you're not in church You might not be And it really becomes an issue of As long as you go in church you're saved

53:38

And if you're not You might have fallen into apostasy You might not be

53:44

And it was really just Interesting To hear because and again you might think

53:50

I'm over reading into the conversation No later it was pretty clear that that's what he meant Like right now he's not right with God But previously he was

53:57

Yes So We got more to get to And time's coming and going quick We haven't really dealt with a lot of the passages

54:08

That they've dealt with They have two specific passages That we wanted to look at And then a particular issue that they come in at the end

54:16

Which is the issue of future sins I know that's going to take some time They talk about Hebrews 6

54:22

But Hebrews 6 Is a broader category Of what we would call warning passages

54:28

And by that The warning of apostasy And like I said earlier we both have a doctrine of apostasy

54:34

So this doesn't mean We have to ignore these passages But we would understand them differently

54:40

So we'll hear what they have to say This is just a very quick Again we're encouraging everybody to go watch the whole thing

54:47

So we're not trying to hide anything So here is a short clip Of what they say about Hebrews 6

54:52

But this is again They talk about Hebrews 6 They talk about 2 Peter They talk about several passages

54:57

Yeah Hebrews 10 They go to several passages and they say See here it says that this person fell away

55:04

Or this person walked away Or this person was a believer Now they're not At least from their understanding of the text

55:09

So this is what they call The proof texts for their position The book of Hebrews is very clearly

55:17

Written to Christians That's clear on every single page Of the book of Hebrews It's very difficult to say that one who has been

55:24

Enlightened and tasted the heavenly gift And made a partaker of the Holy Spirit And has been sanctified

55:30

By the blood of Christ And is a brother It's hard to say that those people

55:35

Have never been genuinely converted I don't think there's any way around This being an apostasy text

55:42

Because even though the word is Tasted, is used It means really experienced I mean it says in the same book

55:49

That Christ tasted death Well that didn't mean he had a little bit of taste of death It means he died When it says they received the

55:55

Holy Spirit The Greek word that is used there is the same word That's used in Hebrews 3 .1 He was a son of holy brethren

56:00

Who had received the heavenly calling Did they receive the heavenly calling or not? Hebrews 6 .4 Tasted of the heavenly gift

56:08

That's definitely born again Okay So here's where I think we have to Consider One thing

56:19

I want to say They brought up a Greek thing See this word here This is what's used here

56:26

Therefore it's the same word That's used here and it means this Even in the sentence you can see

56:31

It's a sentence It's two different contexts and it's being used I hate word studies in general

56:38

I'm going to be talking about this In my hermeneutics class Because man people can use word studies

56:43

To try to prove everything From you know Jesus isn't God Because look at this word

56:49

And this word means this And Jesus used this word of himself And we saw that with the Tuggy debate We were going to do the

56:55

Tuggy debate And we didn't end up doing that For those who don't know James White Debated a man Last name

57:01

Tuggy I forget his first name But he That man argued Jesus is not

57:06

God He argued he's just a dude He was just a man And here's the thing He could make the same kind of documentary

57:13

That these guys are making Go to the same proof text that he's doing And make his argument

57:18

From an overall attitude Jesus is just a man and here's the text that prove it He said there's only seven texts

57:24

That might say he's God And we're going to say those have been Misunderstood or misinterpreted And the same thing would be here

57:31

There's only a few texts that say you can't lose your salvation Here's all the ones that say you can And it becomes a tit for tat

57:37

And again when I said I don't like word studies I'm not saying word studies can't have value And don't come at me in the comments And say you don't like word studies?

57:43

What kind of pastor are you? What I'm saying is people will take A word study

57:49

And this is in Daniel Doriani's book He actually talks about this He says they fall into the fallacy

57:55

Of putting every meaning into a word And making a word Too full of meaning

58:01

To the point that it's not Being nuanced in the way that it's being used At that time And so that's the danger

58:08

There's value in Seeing how the word's used in other contexts Sure But you've got to understand

58:16

When it's used in different contexts The semantic domain of a word is important Just cause in Hebrews 3 1 or wherever they quoted was

58:24

You've been partakers of the Holy Spirit Doesn't necessarily mean it's the same thing Here in Hebrews 6 Or actually there it was partaking of the brethren

58:31

It was an entirely different context And the The argument of Well the warning passages prove that you can lose

58:40

Your salvation I don't Again I don't agree I think the warning passages and we've talked about this

58:47

I know you've taught on Hebrews and I've preached through it And I know we both have our ideas on meaning here

58:54

But the idea of What Hebrews is for Hebrews is

59:00

The concern is that there are those Who are walking away from Christ And particularly going back

59:06

To Judaism Judaism which still exists in its form After the cross

59:13

There were still sacrifices going on Up until 80 -70 When the temple was destroyed

59:19

Up until that point the sacrifices Are still happening even though After Christ they were not

59:24

They weren't right anymore Because the sacrifice had come But they were still happening There's that period of time

59:31

And they're doing the sacrifices And the writer of Hebrews Whoever it may be

59:36

I don't believe it was Paul You can argue with me in the comments on that one But is saying

59:41

If you turn Back from this And go back to this old system

59:47

You're going to what Cannot save Because that system's expiration

59:53

Date has come That system is no more The old covenant

59:58

Is no more And therefore If you go back What does he say

01:00:06

In chapter 10 You're trampling underfoot the blood of the covenant You're taking this covenant

01:00:13

This new covenant which has replaced That old covenant And you're trampling it down Going back

01:00:18

So this is how you understand Hebrews Correct Given the context of Hebrews And there's so much about the old covenant in there

01:00:27

And he references the priesthood And the sacrifices and all the things Concerning The old covenant priesthood and its operation

01:00:35

So the context is He's obviously writing to Hebrews Because he explains in detail

01:00:41

The sacrificial system And all the things concerning that With the priesthood and its operation

01:00:46

So he's writing to these Hebrews And the whole point he's writing to them for Is to explain to them that Jesus is better He starts with The angels in chapter 1

01:00:57

And some believe it has to do because There was a Qumran community that was near there That were elevating angels

01:01:03

To this status And Christ was Maybe perhaps

01:01:09

Somehow an angel Anyway, whatever the case may be He's elevating

01:01:15

Jesus is better than the angels Then he goes into Jesus is better than Moses Which was a big deal

01:01:21

Because they held Moses in such high esteem He's the greater prophet He's the greater mediator Then we have multiple chapters

01:01:27

Starting in chapter 4 with just the mention of it Of the priesthood Then you get to chapter 7 with the

01:01:32

Melchizedekian priesthood And going into Christ Is the better Aaron He's the better priest

01:01:39

He's the greater high priest So it's all about Jesus is better And the reason he's having to do that Is because of what you just mentioned

01:01:46

There were some Who due to persecution of whatever reason Were considering going back

01:01:53

Going back to the old covenant So you have this warning here On the heels of spiritual immaturity

01:01:59

Which was the end of chapter 5 Now we get into chapter 6 And he gives this warning about going back If you notice starting in Verses 4 through 8

01:02:08

Or 1 through 8 Doesn't completely come to mind You see the progression there

01:02:15

He talks about tasters of the heavenly gift Protectors of the Holy Spirit and all those things And then you go back you're re -crucifying again

01:02:21

The Son of Christ again And it's impossible to renew you under repentance Well think about the context here

01:02:27

I mean you talk about this on the phone The context being that These people had been

01:02:34

Witnessed Christ Probably from his childhood up Because we're talking about 30 years removed from the Ascension They witnessed him

01:02:42

His life His ministry Even MacArthur comments on the fact that They could have been there and been one of the 5 ,000

01:02:49

That were fed So they've witnessed all of his miracles They have more information about Jesus than anybody ever had

01:02:55

And yet Knowing that he was Crucified Raised again from the dead

01:03:01

There may have been some there who were in this audience Receiving this letter Who witnessed him after he was resurrected

01:03:09

Yet they're going to deny Who he is and go back And he says if you do that You're going back and there's no hope for you

01:03:17

And then verse 7 and 8 What does he do? He gives a Description Of soils and water

01:03:25

And rain and all that and thorns and thistles That's very reminiscent of What Christ said about the parable of the soils

01:03:31

So If you cross reference With that with Christ Talking about the parable of the soils

01:03:38

What you have is These were people who Believed for a while But when difficulty has come

01:03:46

They wanted to go back to what was familiar They never were believers In the first place because throughout

01:03:52

Matthew Mark and Luke when he talks about the parable Of the soils it uses language like they Believed for a little while but they had no root

01:03:59

But only those who were planted in the Good soil actually Maintain and persevere

01:04:04

To the end but those who were on The rocky soil and all the other different Kinds of soil they may have sprung up for a little while But then they went away

01:04:12

So it's very very possible And we see it even in today's church Those who have It looks like they've partaken of the heavenly gift

01:04:19

They've tasted of Christ they've done all these things And made this profession of faith and then they walk away Because they were never as John tells us

01:04:26

In 1 John they went out from us Because they never were truly among us And what was the context there?

01:04:32

Gnosticism Gnosticism infiltrated the church And some people went out From it went out after it well why did they go out

01:04:38

After because they weren't truly interwoven with the spirit of God They weren't convicted over their sin And they went out after false teaching

01:04:44

The book of Hebrews Is very clear Anyway That's my take on Hebrews 6 of Given the context of the whole book

01:04:55

He's writing to Believers and he's Trying but he knows within there There's some that may not be

01:05:02

So he's almost evangelizing them at this point And for those who are True believers since they've just come on the heels of Spiritual immaturity grow up It's time to advance get past the elementary things

01:05:12

Because Because you haven't advanced that may Lead to the fact that you Your lack of advancement may speak to your

01:05:20

Spiritual condition and you'll prove Your spiritual condition by leaving And going back to that which you knew before Especially when you have all this information

01:05:28

Imagine living in that time period And witnessing Christ And then saying I'm going to align with those who

01:05:34

Crucified him I'm going to go back to That anyway No I think that is a good point

01:05:39

And I just have this to add The verse that has Always been like a huge Bright light in this passage

01:05:48

For me is actually Verse 9 Because verse 9

01:05:53

After having talked about those who have been May partakers of the spirit and by the way Let me say something about that And this

01:05:59

I think goes with What you just said The issue here

01:06:06

Is an issue of Covenant community All of those things that have been

01:06:12

Described My children could say that They have done

01:06:17

Because they have been part of the covenant community It's going to make me sound very Presbyterian Don't you come at me But what

01:06:23

I mean is growing up in church They have participated in all these things The only thing they haven't done maybe is

01:06:28

They haven't taken communion they haven't received baptism Because we're Baptist and they weren't baptized as infants But they have done all those other things

01:06:35

And therefore they have been Part of that community And now if they were to walk away from that That would be

01:06:42

Very similar to what's being said here So having said that I just want to read verse 9

01:06:49

And that it says Though we speak in this way Yet in your case

01:06:56

Beloved We feel sure of better things Things that belong

01:07:01

To salvation So the idea is Yeah we're talking about this thing there are people who are going to turn back

01:07:07

And by the way if they do There's a certain sense in which some of them who turn back Cannot be restored unto repentance

01:07:12

Really that's a big issue Sometimes I think verse 6 if it does prove what they say

01:07:17

It proves too much because it says it cannot be restored unto repentance That's bad Does that mean if you lose your salvation you can never get it back

01:07:23

In their system They'll say no no that's not what it means but that's what it says If it's proving what you say

01:07:30

It proves too much Verse 9 says Though we speak in this way Yet in your case Contextually beloved

01:07:38

Beloved is the believers We feel sure of better things Things that belong to salvation

01:07:44

For God is not unjust so as to overlook your work And the love that you have shown for his name In the serving of the saints as you still do

01:07:50

And we desire each one of you to show The same earnestness to have the full assurance Of hope until the end

01:07:58

So that you may not be sluggish But imitators of those Who through faith and patience Inherit the promises

01:08:03

So I think there's more to it than just the warning There's also a promise That goes along with that latter passage

01:08:11

And that's why I think he's Writing to a mixed bag of people here Yeah Well even if he's writing to believers

01:08:18

If we agree and say he's writing Within the context of believers There's always within the believing group

01:08:24

There are people who are not there yet Like the children and things like that Well when I was asked the question

01:08:30

When I brought this passage In Sunday School When I was asked the question

01:08:36

Do you really think he's Writing to Do you think in his mind he's writing to Two different groups of people

01:08:44

Believers and unbelievers within this context I said well I liken it to something like this Let's say there was a particular

01:08:51

False teaching that was starting to get into Greg Aples Okay Well Cody could Try to address it head on individually

01:08:59

Cody's your pastor Right, Cody could try to address it head on individually Or he could from the pulpit

01:09:05

Address it as a whole Knowing that the believers will understand what he's saying And the unbelievers

01:09:11

May or may not The believers will understand what he's saying

01:09:18

And hopefully the unbelievers After it being refuted Because if they've gone after false teaching Then obviously they're not believers

01:09:24

If they've specially adopted it and they're propagating it They would

01:09:30

They would be addressed too And possibly even come to faith Or leave, one of the two But he would address it as a whole

01:09:36

So in other words, my point is he's addressing everybody Knowing that what he's saying Is going to be an encouragement to those

01:09:43

Who are truly in the faith And rebuke those who aren't And hopefully bring them in or They leave

01:09:50

So that false teaching is no longer there And that's just an example of, that's just kind of how I put it You can address everyone

01:09:57

In one letter Knowing that you're trusting the Spirit of God To do what he's supposed to do To say that it's never speaking to someone who's an unbeliever

01:10:05

Or a false convert Right Would be stretching Even if the primary audience is believers

01:10:11

Right And obviously to give these warnings he does About going back

01:10:18

In writing the letter He had to have some understanding of what was going on With these people The same way

01:10:24

Paul would write in the Corinthians and all those There was all kinds of sexual morality going on And he addresses it Anyway, I know we're getting long here

01:10:31

No, it's good We got two more quick videos we're going to do And then we're going to wrap up The next one is their reference to the golden chain

01:10:39

And this is my bread and butter Right here If there was a passage

01:10:45

That I feel like I've just Just invested a lot in This would be it

01:10:50

And it's interesting their take on it Calvinists actually call this the golden chain That those who are called

01:10:56

And so forth, all the way to glorification I agree with John Wesley who stated that Paul's not saying that everybody that was called

01:11:03

Is justified, that everybody that's justified Ends up being glorified He's just showing how God works in salvation

01:11:09

Paul does not affirm Either here or in any other part Of his writings That precisely the same number of men

01:11:16

Are called, justified and glorified He does not deny That a believer may fall away

01:11:23

And be cut off between His special calling and his glorification Romans 11, 22

01:11:29

He only affirms That this is the method whereby God Leads us step by step

01:11:35

Toward heaven You know, I'm starting to wonder If maybe I ain't using the English narrator So it sounds more professional

01:11:41

Yeah, well it's got to sound like John Wesley He was English, wasn't he? He was Anglican Even when

01:11:48

I hear English actors I love listening to Sinclair Ferguson I know he's not English, he's more Scottish or something

01:11:54

But, you know, it just sounds better With that accent than it does with this country accent I guess It automatically increases

01:12:01

The IQ It automatically makes you think That the person you're listening to has a higher

01:12:08

IQ Whereas when I talk, my IQ Drops 25 points But when it comes to the

01:12:17

Golden Chain of Redemption There's so many different ways That the non -Calvinist

01:12:23

Position has been tried To be pulled out of this And I know, obviously, there's so many videos online

01:12:28

Of people, the non -Calvinist interpretation Of Romans 8, 28 to 39 And all that But, I mean

01:12:36

I don't know if you saw the debate with James White And Michael Brown No, no, no, the one that I moderated

01:12:42

The debate Oh yeah, I saw that one Yeah, and he was arguing this really only applies to the

01:12:47

Jewish people Romans 1 to 8 is really only about The Jews, so there's all these different ways To try to get around what seems to be

01:12:54

The obvious To me, at least, understanding of the text And that is, Paul makes a claim

01:13:00

That God works all things together for the good Of those who love him And then he goes on to say Those who are called, according to his purpose

01:13:08

Which delineates a group Within mankind That the called is not just The generally called

01:13:16

But a specific group And then he gives this five -step Process, the five

01:13:22

Golden chain links And the thing that is always I point out, is the calling comes after The predestination

01:13:30

And the predestination comes after the foreknowing Which of course We understand is God choosing

01:13:36

Because knowing means to being in a relationship With, we see that consistent Throughout the

01:13:41

Bible, the word to know someone And again, we're going to talk about this In a minute, but when Jesus said, depart from me

01:13:46

I never knew you That's referring to a relationship And so, he could say

01:13:51

If you compare And that's Matthew 7, 23 I think, he says, depart from me,

01:13:57

I never knew you If you compare that with Romans 8, those who are foreknown Jesus would say

01:14:03

You were never known Because I never knew you Versus you were foreknown So the foreknowing produces the predestination

01:14:11

The predestination produces the calling The calling produces the justification The calling produces the glorification

01:14:17

All of these verbs, all of them Actions by God And I do believe,

01:14:24

I would disagree Wholeheartedly with Wesley, who says It's not a fixed number of one to the next Those who are

01:14:32

This Are this, that's what the text says You have to introduce the concept Of those who are this

01:14:39

Might be, that's what they're saying Those who are foreknown might be predestined Those who are predestined might be called Those who are called might be justified

01:14:45

Those who are justified might be glorified You are introducing something in the text that's not there And the one fella just tries to explain it away

01:14:52

By saying, well, many are called But few are chosen Well My first thought went to, okay, well

01:15:01

Christ Often, he made the call to everybody in front of him Repent and believe

01:15:07

To everybody in front of him Now, who would better know Who in front of him is actually genuinely

01:15:12

Called? He would, but yet he makes the call in general To everyone, so he's using a text

01:15:18

That's talking about a general Call to everyone, but only few Are chosen That does not explain

01:15:26

The way Romans 8, Golden Chain, in any way, shape, or form No, it's a canard What you just said is

01:15:31

It's a, as Paul makes The point of Work together for all who

01:15:38

Are called according to his purpose And then he talks about who's called Yeah, that's right It's a specific group of people

01:15:44

And on that subject of the calling And this is important because I do think This is a confusing thing for some people

01:15:51

The idea that Calvinists do recognize Two different types of calling in Scripture You just said one is the outward call

01:15:57

And we would differentiate that Between the effectual or inward call And you say, well, where do you

01:16:03

Make that distinction? I think easily we make that distinction In Peter's writings when he says Make your calling and election sure

01:16:09

Well, if I'm making my calling sure And if all the calling means is I've been called outwardly I only make that sure

01:16:16

Okay, I heard it That's not what he's talking about, right? That's not the call that he's saying to make sure

01:16:21

He connects Not equates, but he connects The inward calling that he's referring to With election

01:16:31

He says make your calling and election Certain How? Because you know these things are true

01:16:37

Because they've borne fruit In faith and repentance That's how you know those things are true

01:16:42

And that's how you can be confident That you are in fact A child of God And so that reality

01:16:50

That there is, the Bible does talk Of two different types of calling The Bible does refer to an effectual

01:16:56

Inward calling as distinguished From the outward call that many are called But few are chosen

01:17:02

So, yeah Alright, so the next one is really the Part of the video

01:17:08

And I'm going to show the whole thing This is all they say about it It's like one minute long They talk about the subject of whether or not

01:17:16

Future sins are forgiven And their answer to a man Except for one

01:17:22

One seems to vacillate I'm going to see if you pick up on this like I did But almost to a man they all say

01:17:28

No, your future sins are not forgiven One guy is sort of like well And we'll hear But listen to their argument on future sins

01:17:37

The central error Of the hyper grace message Is that the moment you're saved

01:17:43

God not only forgives your past And present sins He not only forgives who you are and what you've done

01:17:49

But at that moment He forgives every sin that you will ever commit In the future

01:17:54

All your past sins are forgiven When you're first saved But your future sins are not

01:18:01

Pre -forgiven In other words you start with a clean slate But you can muddy that slate again

01:18:07

We know that we're Forgiven our past sins not our future sins Because in 2 Peter chapter 1

01:18:12

It warns about those who forget that they were Cleansed from their past sins That's why we read in James chapter 5

01:18:18

Verse 19 and 20 when the brother Who is brought back after he falls away from the Lord It says you'll save a soul from death and hide

01:18:24

A multitude of sins that's why we're told That we're to confess our sins And then He's faithful and just to forgive us our sins

01:18:30

If people say their future Sins are also forgiven like some people Do preach then 1

01:18:37

John 2 1 1 John 1 9 is meaningless If we confess our sins He's faithful And just to forgive us

01:18:43

I'll say Lord I have to Confess nothing they're already forgiven There's too many scriptures they're over throughout the New Testament It's what the early church taught as well you must continue

01:18:50

To confess your sins now if we die And there's one sin unconfessed Well guess what we're branches in the vine

01:18:56

Falling short of the Lord's glory doesn't sever us From the vine it's apostasy that severs Us from the vine that's a continual

01:19:02

Rebellion against God So the idea that your future sins are forgiven Would imply that your

01:19:08

Sins are forgiven apart from Repentance now if you Sin in the future there is

01:19:14

Forgiveness for those sins If you repent and what sin In the life of the Christian can do

01:19:20

Without repentance Is get in the way of receiving The ongoing forgiveness that Christ Has already provided that's the

01:19:28

Way to look at it so he died For all of our sins before we Ever committed a single sin

01:19:33

However forgiveness is Transacted for what we have Done our sins are taken

01:19:40

Care of at the cross By Jesus Christ our Subjective experience of Forgiveness and reconciliation with God is an ongoing

01:19:49

Relationship with God that We conduct in Confession admission

01:19:55

Repentance and restitution That guy at the end

01:20:02

Our sins are taken care Of at the cross but There's this experiential forgiveness

01:20:08

That that is actually Somewhat similar to what I would say and in The sense that we do

01:20:16

Have the responsibility to repent Like a daily repentance I talk About the difference between the big

01:20:21

R repentance and little R repentance you ever heard that Or heard me talk about that I hadn't heard you talk About that but I understand what you kind of get the idea right like when

01:20:28

We turn to Christ when we turn From unbelief to belief That's big

01:20:33

R repentance that's The repentance that we're calling men to repent Turn and Trust right change your mind

01:20:40

About your sin change your mind about who Christ is and turn to Christ that's Big R repentance and then we

01:20:46

Have the daily repentance Of hey I'm struggling with this or I'm battling with this my

01:20:52

Flesh wants this and my mind knows I don't you know that going back and forth you Know I want to repent

01:20:58

Daily right and so I think that last guy I don't know him

01:21:04

I don't know His situation obviously believes you can lose your salvation Because he put himself in this video so obviously we disagree On a lot but I don't

01:21:10

Think he wanted to say That your future sins aren't actually Forgiven I think he wanted

01:21:16

To sort of have his cake and eat it too Well your yes your sins are taken care of at the cross But Right But that you know and And so I know you have a lot of thoughts

01:21:28

I'll let you go but I'm gonna I really Want to go to town on this because this is So important to me but Well this bothers me because One To say that our future sins aren't forgiven

01:21:43

Destroys What Christ said at Calvary It Is finished

01:21:50

If Only my sins Of the past are forgiven

01:21:55

When I placed faith in Christ Then what Christ did Was not finished

01:22:00

It requires me to finish it Because I have to Make sure

01:22:05

I repent of every sin Going forward otherwise It's not paid for And then

01:22:12

The other problem with that is Is if I forget to repent For something What do we understand about God and why

01:22:20

We cannot be reconciled to him If there's an ounce of sin on Us we cannot be in the presence

01:22:26

Of God so if My future sins are not paid for And according to these guys

01:22:32

I have to repent in order for it To be cashed into the register Being paid for if I Forget to pay for something

01:22:40

Or forget to repent then it's not paid for And Being in the book of Hebrews One of the things that we talked about Was when the priest

01:22:50

Went behind the veil What was he going to do What Hebrews tells us he was going to Atone for the sins of the people

01:22:58

Committed in ignorance which means Sins they didn't even know they committed They are placing their confidence

01:23:04

In this man to do his job Of cleansing himself First then going behind the veil

01:23:10

And atoning for their sins That they've committed in ignorance We have a great high

01:23:16

Priest who we can have Full confidence in that he Went behind the veil into the true

01:23:22

Holy of holies into the tabernacle not Made with hands and he As our great high priest

01:23:28

Made the perfect sacrifice Which was himself to Eradicate our

01:23:34

Sin past present and future If he did not do that We have no hope because The one fellow who said well if I commit one sin

01:23:42

And I don't ask forgiveness for it well I'm connected to the Vine no bub you can't have it both ways You can't say

01:23:48

That your future sins Are not paid for but then you Fail to repent for one and Still get into the kingdom

01:23:56

Your theology is skewed on that one That's bull hockey as far As I'm concerned

01:24:01

Bull hockey ladies and gentlemen That's Rich Roden Callahan Florida Completely Destroys what

01:24:10

Christ has done Because you're saying his Sacrifice was not sufficient It covers my past But it doesn't cover my future

01:24:19

And what about the Old Testament saints who were looking Forward to his sacrifice Looking forward to the one who was going to take care of the

01:24:25

Sin they're saved retroactively Through Christ their future sins were paid For at Calvary Hello?

01:24:32

Hello? I don't It makes me mad

01:24:37

Is what it does because you're maligning The work of Christ You are saying his sacrifice is not

01:24:43

Sufficient and that's Insanity to me It surprised me as I said the only one

01:24:49

That I think Maybe the other older man The older man who was sitting in the wing back chair

01:24:54

Kind of said something similar But it surprised me how willing They all were

01:25:00

Especially the one with the heavy Indian Accent was saying Oh yes your future sins are not

01:25:07

Forgiven Like they're just not And Michael Brown to say

01:25:13

The problem with the hyper grace And of course he keeps using that term The hyper grace message which is not what we're teaching

01:25:18

According to that definition But is that All of your sins are forgiven

01:25:24

Even your future sins The issue is sin As we have to Understand sin

01:25:31

Is a Hole When I talk about my sin

01:25:38

I'm not talking about my Sins I'm talking about my

01:25:44

Sin that which makes me Worthy of God's punishment That which makes me an object

01:25:50

Of God's Wrath A rightful object of his eternal wrath We're talking about That which separates

01:26:00

Me from God And The bible tells us that God Takes that thing that separates us

01:26:07

And he removes it He removes it as far as east is from the west He has so far separated our iniquities from us

01:26:13

As far as east is from the west And so Does that mean

01:26:19

That on a practical level I don't have a daily responsibility To Continually live a life of repentance

01:26:27

No we've talked about that Obviously we agree with that But the issue is As you have just articulated well

01:26:35

The issue of one Sin is done in ignorance That's a Huh I mean how many things that we do

01:26:44

That we just didn't realize at the time Right But here's the thing that really You said it right

01:26:50

It diminishes the work of Christ But I'm going to go one step beyond It also diminishes what sin is

01:26:56

Because here's the problem And I ask people this all the time

01:27:01

And they get upset with me But you have to consider this Have you loved the

01:27:07

Lord your God With all your heart, soul, mind and strength Today All day No You haven't

01:27:14

No Now that doesn't mean that you can't desire to Or that you can't want to Or that you can't strive to The Bible tells us to do that Therefore we should strive to do it

01:27:23

Be holy as I'm holy Right that's the goal But what they're missing in this And this is the part that really just Makes me cringe

01:27:32

Is they're missing how sinful they are If they really think they can repent Of every sin they do

01:27:38

They don't understand how far That depth of sin is Still there

01:27:44

They do not love the Lord their God With all their heart, soul, mind and strength And they don't love their neighbors or self perfectly

01:27:51

And because of that Their life should be lived In a state of repentance

01:27:57

In a state of recognition That God is the one The only one

01:28:02

Who could possibly bring me to the end Because I can't do it I cannot do this

01:28:08

On my own And we said we were going to say this But the quote by Vody and MacArthur And it's been attributed to Washer And probably been attributed to everybody but Paul himself

01:28:16

And that is if you could Lose your salvation You would Because the reality is

01:28:24

When you step back and you consider How sinful Even as a blood bought

01:28:29

Born again Spirit indwelled believer When you still consider

01:28:35

The fact that you've never Loved the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength Perfectly And thereby do you repent of that And do you daily

01:28:45

Repent of that And do you always remember to repent Of that failure

01:28:51

That missing the mark That Romans 3 .23 Missing the glory of God Falling short

01:28:59

And that's the part that I think I think you're right to say that They're diminishing the work of Christ But they're also diminishing the weight of sin

01:29:07

By saying that you have one The intellectual ability to know Every sin you've ever committed And therefore be able to repent of it

01:29:13

Oh but you don't have to like said the guy We're still part of the line You're talking out of both sides of your mouth You're saying you have to repent

01:29:18

Or that sin's not forgiven One sin will keep you from going Into the presence of God People that's the point

01:29:24

One sin, even a little white lie Even one act of hatred

01:29:30

Even one act of lust One sin makes you worthy Of an eternal condemnation

01:29:36

And yet They're saying if you don't repent Of every sin it's not forgiven

01:29:43

Beloved if it's not forgiven If our sins are not completely Paid for on the cross And our daily repentance is simply

01:29:50

An act of demonstration of knowing Our need to draw closer to God in fellowship Then I think

01:29:56

You're diminishing the work of Christ As Richard said and you're diminishing The weight of sin And another thing also

01:30:05

They're contradicting What they said earlier and we didn't cover it But one of the things is Does this require sinless perfection

01:30:11

And they say no They say no So you can't have both of those But another thing is

01:30:17

One of the fellas said You don't need eternal security all you need is assurance How can you have any level of assurance

01:30:25

If you don't believe That Christ has paid your debt entirely Past present and future Because Only Christ has done

01:30:34

What we're talking about He loved the Lord his God He loved the Father perfectly Heart, mind, soul and strength

01:30:40

He demonstrated that He was sinless And then he became sin

01:30:46

For us So that we could what Become the righteousness of God in him

01:30:53

And I go back to Isaiah It pleased the Father to crush him to do this

01:30:58

To pour out the full cup of his wrath On him so that we can be Reconciled to him We're talking about the full cup of God's Wrath for sin

01:31:08

Not just your past sins That's right All sin Singular Encompass of the whole

01:31:17

All of it It's a thing it's all one thing It's my sin

01:31:22

So if that's not been paid for How can you sit there and say you have assurance

01:31:28

You have assurance of nothing Because you're depending on your ability To cover your own sin

01:31:34

Through repentance as you do it And hope that you do it all And that's the other thing

01:31:41

So if you got saved If you came to faith in Christ on October 30 Of 1975

01:31:49

For the last 50 years You've had to do it yourself Because you said at that point everything past was paid for Everything going forward

01:31:56

I've got to cover What? You have no assurance You can't tell me for the last 50 years

01:32:02

You've repented of everything No chance You've diminished sin You've diminished the work of Christ And you have zero assurance

01:32:10

I don't care how much you say you think you got it You ain't got it You're deceiving yourself

01:32:15

If you think you have assurance that you're in the kingdom If you're depending on yourself To cover all the sins

01:32:21

After your conversion That's insane to me I don't see how they can have it The Bible says that my sin was nailed to the cross

01:32:30

That's it And does that mean only my past sins? Nope I can't reconcile that it could

01:32:36

That means one sin in the future Could take all that work

01:32:41

That was nailed to the cross And diminish it Well think about this too Once for all final sacrifice

01:32:48

Why'd they have to keep repeating the sacrifices? Because people kept sinning Well if Christ made a once for all final sacrifice

01:32:54

Then how is that sufficient for your future sins? It's not According to their theology

01:33:01

Anyway I think one thing we need to do is Because we haven't really touched on it

01:33:08

They're saying you can lose your salvation We haven't reconciled The scriptures that say you can't

01:33:16

If they say we can lose our salvation Okay I'm reminded of a sermon

01:33:23

That James White did And it stuck with me It's on Colossians 3 And I forget the chapter and verse

01:33:28

But we are hidden in Christ in God And he used this He took off his wedding ring

01:33:33

I take mine off but I can't get it off It's been on too long But he took his wedding ring and said If I put this wedding ring in my hand and close it

01:33:39

And then I take my other hand and wrap it around there You'd be hard pressed to get that ring out of my hand We are hidden in Christ in God You take that with Romans 8

01:33:51

Neither height nor depth Or any of those things But you can get out We didn't do the clip

01:33:57

But you can jump out All exterior things Nothing can take you We talked about holding on And that's the key

01:34:05

It's not that I'm holding on to him But he's holding on to me And to say you can lose your salvation

01:34:12

Makes Christ a liar Because he made it very clear All that the Father has given me I will lose none of them

01:34:18

That's right Ephesians 1 tells us we were given to him Before the foundation of the world Before God ever said let there be light

01:34:25

You were his You were chosen out of his own mercy Nothing to do with looking down the corridors of time

01:34:30

And seeing what you did He chose you out of his own mercy and grace To be his And Christ has come and redeemed you

01:34:39

And the Spirit has applied that salvation And if Christ says all that the Father has given me I will lose none of them

01:34:45

What you're saying is If you're kept by the power of God If you're hidden in Christ and God If you've been given to Christ And he cannot lose you

01:34:55

But you're saying that you can Nullify all that and jump out Of his hand

01:35:01

Then you're making Christ a liar And Jesus Christ is not going to lose Anything he's been given If he says you're his

01:35:08

You're his And they started talking about the sheep hear his voice And they wanted to say well you can quit listening

01:35:16

No The sheep hear his voice Because what constitutes being a sheep You hear his voice

01:35:22

Well who hears his voice Those have been given to him And if you've been given to him You've been sealed with the promise of the Holy Spirit Guaranteed until the day of your salvation

01:35:30

You're just guaranteed And we were going to talk about that too But we kind of went a little long But the whole point is

01:35:36

If you're going to say You can lose your salvation And this is why they didn't cover any of these other texts Because those texts, what are you going to do with that You have to reconcile it as a whole

01:35:46

So when you go to a Hebrews 6 or a Hebrews 10 Or these warning passages that seem to say You can lose your salvation Well what did

01:35:51

Jesus say I will lose nothing That the

01:35:56

Father has given me No one What does Paul tell us Nothing can take you out of the

01:36:02

Father It separates you from the love of Christ Nothing can snatch you out of his hand Jesus said that himself If all these things are true

01:36:08

Then these other passages can't possibly mean That you're indwelt with the spirit of God You are his, you are one of his sheep

01:36:15

But then you decide to be a goat There's no chance Because Christ isn't a liar

01:36:21

Unless you're going to agree with False teachers and say Well he's not really God Because if Christ is

01:36:28

God Then second member of the Trinity Then he cannot lie So anyway

01:36:33

And he says all the Father gives me will come to me And the one who comes to me I will in no way cast out

01:36:40

You got it I just wanted to throw that in there And you're right We need to at least show

01:36:47

These are some of the reasons why we hold to what we hold to And the other one

01:36:53

When he says You don't believe because you're not my sheep My sheep hear my voice

01:36:59

I know them and they follow me I know them And I lay down my life

01:37:04

For the sheep He didn't say I lay my life down for the sheep and the goats I lay my life down for the sheep That's a whole other conversation

01:37:11

But one last one Since we're doing this And you're right I didn't have it in my notes

01:37:17

I just said final thoughts This is our final thoughts I've always been moved by And I mentioned it earlier

01:37:25

But I'll sort of end with this I've been moved many times Just considering what

01:37:30

Jesus says In the warning passage In Matthew 7 Because it begins by talking about Knowing the tree by its fruit

01:37:40

Talking about false teachers And all those things But then in verse 21 when he says Many will come unto me that day and say

01:37:46

Lord, Lord They obviously think they know him Lord, Lord Did we not do many miracles in your name

01:37:53

Cast out demons in your name Do mighty works in your name We're calling you Lord, Lord We're saying these things

01:38:02

Yet I will say to them Depart from me

01:38:08

I never Knew you Not I knew you for a time

01:38:13

You were born again You had the Holy Spirit You hit the ejector seat You pulled the plug

01:38:18

He went down the drain And now I don't know you anymore No, I never knew you

01:38:25

And this again You and I would both agree When 1 John says They went out from us Because they were not of us

01:38:32

For had they been with us They would have remained with us But they went out to demonstrate That they were not of us

01:38:38

And so at the end of the day We believe they're those Who are going to depart

01:38:44

But we do not believe that those people Were born again

01:38:49

Blood bought And spirit Indwelled people

01:38:55

They were not true sheep I believe that They were not And so that's our position

01:39:02

And I'm sure people are going to disagree And you want to say anything else Before I draw us to a close

01:39:07

I just enjoy coming out here And doing this stuff and talking Scripture And topics with you and I appreciate you

01:39:13

Letting me come back Absolutely, I'm glad you did And hey, if you got an idea for a funny video Or a serious video you'd like for Richard and I to do

01:39:21

I say funny because he's now become very famous In our funny videos as our stand -in avatar

01:39:26

For the Reformed Baptist But if you have anything You'd like for us to deal with in the future You can contact me

01:39:33

At KeithFoskey .com Just go there You can contact me on the website And let me know if you have any questions

01:39:41

Please keep in mind That again, this is a ministry Of Sovereign Grace Family Church So if you're in the

01:39:47

Jacksonville area Come see us at Sovereign Grace Family Church Or if you're in Callahan and you'd like to go to another church

01:39:52

You can always go to Richard's Church Which is Greg Abel's Baptist Church With Pastor Cody Page I was going to say

01:39:59

Cody Adams But that's his brother Adam Page Well anyway Thank you again for being a part of the show

01:40:05

This has been your Calvinist Podcast I'm Keith Foskey and as always I've been your Calvinist May God bless you

01:40:33

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