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Aaron Dunlop, a native of Northern Ireland, graduate of Geneva Reformed Seminary, SC, author & founder of ThinkGospel.com who will discuss:
“CONFESSIONS of a FUNDAMENTALIST”
Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.
Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.
It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. Now here's our host, Chris Arntzen.
Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Friday on this 19th day of May 2017.
I am very happy to have as my guest today for the very first time Aaron Dunlop. He is a native of Northern Ireland and he's a graduate of Geneva Reform Seminary in South Carolina, which is the seminary of the Free Presbyterian Church of North America.
He is an author and he's the founder of ThinkGospel .com. Today we are discussing his book, Confessions of a Fundamentalist, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time to Iron Sharpens Iron, Aaron Dunlop.
Thank you, Chris. And in studio with me is my co-host, the Reverend Buzz Taylor. Also a former fundamentalist. Thank you, good to be here. And if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is ChrisArntzen at gmail .com.
Chris give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA. But if you must remain anonymous due to a personal and private matter that you're asking about, perhaps you disagree with your own pastor or your own spouse or your own family on a certain theological issue involving our topic, well we will grant your request to remain anonymous if it makes you feel more comfortable.
Otherwise, please give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside of the USA. And Aaron, before we even go into the discussion of the book, Confessions of a Fundamentalist, I'd like to know something.
About ThinkGospel .com. What exactly is that? ThinkGospel .com was a website that I began a number of years ago while I was pastoring in Victoria, and it was a very simple presentation of the Gospel. It was an evangelistic outreach of our church.
It developed into a blog. I dealt with many historical issues and biblical issues, simple Gospel questions, and it has since developed.
Into a daily devotional. Yes, I've looked it over. It's quite an impressive website, and for any of our listeners who would like to investigate that website later, it's ThinkGospel .com, T-H-I-N-K-Gospel .com.
And I'd like to know also something about your upbringing, the religion of your childhood, if any, and how eventually our Sovereign Lord providentially drew you to.
Himself and saved you. Okay, I would just say I tell my children that Think Gospel should be their model. In many ways, it's through the Gospel. Soon after his conversion, I entered the Theological Hall or the Seminary of the... Praise God.
Well, from my understanding over the.
Years, I've gotten to know a number of Free Presbyterian pastors and members of the Free Presbyterian Church. In fact, they are some of my favorite preachers. Very powerful, Gospel-centered, unwaveringly committed to the truths of Scripture, no matter how unpopular.
And I have been very impressed. In fact, many years ago, John Greer, who is now back in Northern Ireland, he was at one time pastor of the Free Presbyterian Church of Malvern, Pennsylvania, and he had come at my invitation to the church where I was a member, and he participated in a Bible conference at Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island, located in Merrick, New York.
And I have just really gotten to love a lot of what I have been hearing preached from these men. In fact, Dr. Mark Allison, who is now the president of Geneva Reform Seminary, where you graduated in South Carolina, he has been a guest on my program a number of times.
So, from what I understand, the Free Presbyterian Church.
Of North America was founded by Ian Paisley, am I right? That's correct. He was involved in the founding. In my book, I dedicated to five of the elders who left the Irish Presbyterian Church. And while Ian Paisley's name is most generally associated with the founding, I believe that the five elders need recognition, because they sacrificed.
At that time, Ian Paisley was a young... They applied to him. In fact, it was around in March of 1951 that a mission was denied them, that access was denied. It revolved around him, that's correct, March 1951.
And it is a very conservative denomination. In fact, some of our listeners, or perhaps even most of our listeners, will be surprised to learn that not all Presbyterians believe in infant baptism, because quite a number of the pastors within the Free Presbyterian Church of North America and the Free Presbyterian Church of Ulster, the mother church, if you will, many of the men in the ministry in that denomination are actually Baptists in regard to the ordinance.
They believe in believers baptized by immersion only, but there are paedo-baptists as well in the ministry of this denomination. And I know that the word Presbyterian in the name is more in regard to the polity of the denomination.
That pines up, of course, to the founding of the church. The five elders who live there are no longer a member. I'm sorry, brother? I am no longer a member of the Free Presbyterian.
Yeah, it's interesting. I'm writing from that perspective. Yes. It's interesting that you said that there's the majority of men in the ministry of the Free Presbyterian Church are credo-Baptist, believers only Baptist in regard to the ordinances.
I have yet to meet a paedo-Baptist in the Free Presbyterian Church, but I'm sure that they're there. I keep hearing that there are some there. There are, yeah. Well, the book that you have written, quite a provocative title, Confessions of a Fundamentalist, I think it probably would be wise for us to have you define what is a fundamentalist or what is fundamentalism, because in this day and age, in the 21st century, the majority of people hearing that term are not hearing it in regard to Christianity, they're hearing it in regard to Islam.
And that's obviously not a very flattering thing to be associated with that type of fundamentalism, which involves violence and all kinds of things. But obviously, there is an entirely different meaning to fundamentalist Christianity,.
And if you could define that for me. Well, fundamentalist Christianity has, as it is known today, is known from a negative perspective still, and that's why many people...
Yes, I often feel awkward when someone, it would typically be an unbeliever or perhaps a liberal who would ask me on occasion, are you a fundamentalist? And I have an awkward feeling in saying no, because I know that the origins of fundamentalism were very noble and biblical.
And so I typically say, well, what do you mean by that? And then if they define something that I am against, I will tell them what I oppose in their definition, and I will elaborate more on what I believe.
But I really don't like totally jettisoning the term fundamentalist and, you know, abandoning it altogether.
Right. There is today the term a resurgent fundamentalism, and that is coming from more progressive evangelicals who look upon men such as Al Mohler, John MacArthur, John Piper, who are taking their stand on many issues in current theological debate, and they look upon those men as a resurgent fundamentalism.
But the title, fundamentalist movement, what is being jettisoned and what is being disliked among evangelicals is the idea of a movement that was not only a theological movement, but a political movement, a cultural movement.
You know, in America, fundamentalism was closely associated with MacArthur's fight against communism, the moral majority in the 1970s and 80s, which was closely linked with the Reagan government. In Northern Ireland, it was closely linked with anti-Catholicism and the unionist fight against, and in Canada, it was closely linked also with many sermons of the fundamentalists.
And I want to remind our listeners about our email address. It's.
Chrisarnsen at gmail .com, c-h-r-i-s-a-r-n-z-e-n at gmail .com. If you have a question for our guest on fundamentalism and specifically on his own theological journey, but before I go to any of our listener questions, if you could really describe the development of the movement.
I mean, you've already mentioned some of it, but can you get into more detail on the development of the fundamentalist movement? Please. Yes, and what you are addressing in that chapter in your book.
Okay, yeah. Well, I link my studies specifically, a couple of things. I'm working on a biography of the first fundamentalist split in North America, which happened in Vancouver in 1927. And the key figure there was a man called J .B. Rowell.
He's unknown to many evangelicals and fundamentalists today, but I'm working on his biography. So that study developed. And then as a new generation is coming into the church and I discover that many are leaving fundamentalism, I began to ask myself the question, what's wrong and why is fundamentalism losing?
And that's where the studies were born out of. The development I link with the three countries, the only three countries in the world in which I've developed were America, Canada, and Northern Ireland.
And my studies particularly deal with Canada, fundamentalism in America. Well, I may need a lot to learn about it because it's.
Not something that was actually much a part of my background. So don't cut yourself short there.
Right. We have Ronald in Eastern Suffolk County, Long Island, New York, who wants to know,.
The thing that always puzzled me about the friendship between Bob Jones University and Ian Paisley is that Bob Jones University has had a history of being vehemently anti-Calvinist, and yet Ian Paisley seems to have been an unwavering, strong, committed Calvinist.
How could this friendship continue with the two theological systems being in such strong opposition to one another?
That's one of the anomalies. One person read about that, but he saw Cal 1990s, he practiced the altar call, evangelism. Right. What was the first thing you said before the altar call? I didn't hear what you said.
I'm sorry. That Ian Paisley was a Calvinist. Right. No doubt about that. But even his association with Bob Jones, both of them together were very anti-hyper-Calvinistic, and they made statements, the Congress of Fundamentalists made statements against hyper-Calvinism.
So they found a common bond in their fight against the hyper-Calvinism. But Ian Paisley, as I said before, was a soft Calvinist. The hard edges of hyper-Calvinism were well knocked off him. Ian Paisley was a phenomenal gospel preacher, and passionate.
He was very much in the background when it came to the preaching of the gospel, and they're engaged in altar calls and so forth.
Yeah, he would have to have compromised on Calvinism to have the altar calls. It's interesting, though, that the men that I have met within the ministry in the Free Presbyterian Church of North America, they seem to be very committed Calvinists, unwaveringly so.
Yes, and you know, in mind also when I discuss, and I would say, and many would be genuine, I cannot. I think I mentioned that in the last chapter of the book.
And you go on to a chapter that you have titled, Conviction, Courage, and Biblical Authority,.
If you could tell us about that. Well, that chapter's fundamentalism. That's what MacArthur has been, and I discovered in class I would be afraid of the Christian colleges toward other men. The New Evangelicals of yesteryear, I think, were so busy trying to live with a conscience void of offense toward man that many of them ignored.
But the two are not mutually exclusive. The Bible doesn't give us commands that are mutually exclusive, and both are possible. And that is that balance in the middle. There is a better way to fundamentalism, and that's the balance that I'm calling for.
You know, I don't want to, and I wrote that chapter, I don't want to jettison, I don't want to. And so I'm walking, I realize that I'm walking a very fine line in defending fundamentalism.
And by the way, I think I forgot to tell Ronald in Eastern Suffolk County, Long Island, New York, that you have won a free copy of Confessions of a Fundamentalist by our guest today, Aaron Dunlop, and that's compliments of Tentmaker Publications, and also compliments of our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, that's CV for Cumberland Valley, BBS for Bible Book Service, who will be sending out that copy to you.
And look for a return address on the shipping label that says CVBBS .com, CV for Cumberland Valley, BBS for Bible Book Service .com. And we thank Todd and Petty Jennings, the owners of CVBBS .com for their faithfulness in supporting Iron Sharp and Zion Radio, and for shipping out all of our winners in our audience, their free Bibles, books, DVDs, CDs, and other items that we give away to those submitting questions.
So hopefully you'll be getting that in the mail very soon, Ronald, and keep listening to Iron Sharp and Zion, and keep spreading the word about it in Suffolk County, Long Island, New York, and beyond.
And we're going to be right back, God willing, after these messages, so don't go away.
Iron Sharp and Zion.
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Welcome back to the program. If you just tuned us in, our guest today is Aaron Dunlop, a native of Northern Ireland, graduate of Geneva Reform Seminary in South Carolina. He's an author and founder of ThinkGospel .com.
We are discussing his book, Confessions of a Fundamentalist, and if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. Chrisarnson at gmail .com.
Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the USA, and you may remain anonymous if it makes you feel more comfortable. And I have a question from Aaron in Indianapolis, Indiana.
She says, Greetings to Mr. Dunlop from a member of the Free Presbyterian Church in Indianapolis and follower of ThinkGospel .com. Thank you for that devotional site. Excuse my ignorance, but could you please educate me quickly on how the fundamentalist movement in Ireland related or fit into the history of the Catholic-Christian tensions in that country?
Right. Well, it's outside of the purview of my book, but it's a very fascinating question, and I think it relates also to the fundamentalist movement in North America. And that goes back to what I believe is what I call the British Empire developed counter-movement or in direct tension against Catholic Europe.
The British meant that you were Protestant. The two were synonymous, went together. When that came over to Canada, you had men like T .T. Shields. In fact, most of the early fundamentalists in Canada were British-born.
In my subject, in my book, the biography that I'm working on was British-born. T .T. Shields was British-born, and a number of other men in Canada were British. The fight, I believe, is also seen in North America, in America rather, and there's a fight not just to maintain, there's a fight between Northern Ireland, it's a very complex 1921 to stuff in the history, and that's the fight even today, unionism.
Ian Pearsley. Thank you so much, Aaron, from Indianapolis, Indiana, and you have also won a free copy of.
Confessions of a Fundamentalist by our guest Aaron Dunlop, compliments of Tentmaker Publications and compliments of CVBBS .com, Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service at CVBBS .com. You also have a chapter that really, I think, gets at the heart of what we are discussing today, it's titled The Dangers of the Fundamentalist Mentality.
Yes, this mentality is a chapter that deals specifically with the gospel, and as I pondered fundamentalism and what it developed into, I could see, both by experience and by what I was reading in the history of fundamentalism, I could see fault lines developing early in the movement, and I think they have developed into what I call in the chapter a shallow evangelistic outreach and a tendency toward legalistic holiness.
I think the two, and the shallow evangelistic outreach, and don't get me wrong, fundamentalists were evangelistic. In fact, the church in North America grew exponentially because of fundamentalism. We're developing in a fundamentalist outreach.
It was a shallow, and I can see it in many circles to the gospel, this altar call where men and women are called up the aisle. They don't know the substance of the gospel, and many preachers are preaching the gospel.
As one man said to me, he says, fundamentalist preachers, when I hear statements like that within the fundamentalist church, and I had as the problem, and why is there this shallow evangelistic preaching?
And I think it's linked, that shallow evangelism is linked to legalistic holiness. If you don't know what you're saved to, if you don't know the substance and the glory of the Christ who calls us to salvation, the sovereignty of God, and the indwelling, then you have to repeat the vocation with something else.
If you haven't got the fullness of Christ in the gospel as not only your Savior, but your sanctifier, then you have to repeat.
Now obviously, we have to clarify things because of the fact that we are living in a day and age when you have churches that would describe themselves as evangelicals that are pro-homosexual, that are pro-same-sex marriage.
Immediately I'm thinking of Matthew Vines, who is a self-identified homosexual or gay man. I don't use that term myself because I don't think it's appropriate of that movement to be robbing good words from our vocabulary and identifying themselves that way.
But there are people who say the very same things about you and I, and about basic, you know, ordinary born-again Christians who have biblical morality, and they will say, well, you know, you're just legalistic for trying to prohibit love, marital relations between two people of the same gender.
And of course, you know, that goes to many other issues in life where, although the fundamentalist may go overboard with focusing or harping on the clothing that we wear, we would be in agreement that there are some women who walk into churches that you could not tell the difference between them and a prostitute by what they're wearing.
So, I mean, could you define exactly what you specifically mean when you are.
Talking about legalistic holiness? Yeah, there are different levels of legalism. You know, it's very nuanced. But the whole idea, you look at the history of fundamentalism, geographically, the makeup...
That was him that said that, huh?
By worldwide, I mean by a legalism-oriented world. I think that's the heart of it.
Yeah, in 2 Timothy chapter 4, verses 3 through 4, we have Paul saying,. Now, typically, that would be a frequently preached text within fundamentalism, and it's usually about preachers who are trying to appease people by letting them get away with behaviors and practices that are sinful, and trying to remove the sting of sin and remove the fear of hell from their hearts and minds.
But isn't it true that these very same fundamentalists can be guilty of the very same thing? Because if you are preaching to the choir, as the saying goes, where you're always talking about women with short skirts and men with long hair and rock and roll music and things that the people in the congregation are not doing, and they could be sparing these people from the actual sins that may be rampant in those congregations, like pride, like bigotry, like arrogance, like not helping your brother in need financially or other ways, even sexual sins of the eyes and heart that are not involved in scantily dressed women.
It could be people who are just privately going through their own lusts and so on. There are a lot of things that fundamentalists may be very guilty of that their pastors are not even addressing, because they're only harping on the things that those outside of their own walls are doing.
Am I right on that? Right. Yes. And I think, you know, when I look back, it developed as a movement to fight against theological liberalism, but it never developed beyond that. And there was theological aberrance, aberrant theology that came out in the more recent years that fundamentalists have not dealt with.
And I think in many ways, the movement was stuck in a time warp where it could defend the virgin birth and the bodily resurrection of Christ. But when it comes to open theism, the charismatic movement, these issues are now being defended, not by the fundamentalists, but by what the fundamentalists would call the new evangelicals, which is a term that they still use.
So they were stuck back in this defending the faith against liberalism, but they never really moved beyond that. And so they weren't preaching to their people. And again, I'm brushing with a broad brush, and from my own experience, they weren't preaching to the people about those things that you just mentioned, about the heart issues.
And I say in the book, in the last part of that chapter, worldliness is not so much what we reject of this world, the material things, the pleasures, the fashions. It has more to do with how we respond to the world around us, about right living, as it is about right thinking.
Not so much about things as it is about thoughts. I think fundamentalism tended to externalize holiness and missed the internal, you know, I think of it to write on this issue, was the struggles that I saw my peers struggling within the movement.
And another generation coming up, the generation rejecting fundamentalism, they were struggling with issues. And many of them, you know, got saved out of the world, and they were thrown straight into this defense of the faith before they knew what faith they were defending.
You know, they were told what you wear, this is how you must look, this is what you must say, this is the Bible you must take, and without giving the reason. And so they weren't allowed to grow in grace.
Yes, I think that you're absolutely right,.
As far as the lack of depth, theological depth that many within the movement have, because they are not only focused on a very narrow circle of subjects typically, the thing that I find amazing is that the fundamentalists whose claim to fame is the inerrancy of scripture, and the literal interpretation of the scripture, I find so often them being terrified of actually getting into long discussions about certain scriptures that refute what they believe.
And I'm speaking here, particularly about the doctrines of sovereign grace or the reformed faith or Calvinism. Now, of course, I know that there are fundamentalists who are Calvinists, who are very strongly identified with the doctrines of sovereign grace, even if they do not use the label Calvinist or reformed.
But I can tell you about a friend of mine who came out of a King James only independent fundamentalist Baptist background, and he, over the course of years that I knew him, became a full-blown theologically reformed five-point Calvinist Baptist pastor.
And he told his father-in-law, who is very, very anti-Calvinist, his father-in-law who's also a pastor, he told his father-in-law that he was going to be preaching on Romans 9, and he had not yet broken the news to his father-in-law that he had come to embrace the doctrines of grace.
And he told his father-in-law he's going to be preaching on Romans 9, and his father-in-law said, wait a minute, wait a minute, you got to get my sermon notes. You got to get the, please look at my sermon notes first.
And he said that in the sermon notes where, for instance, the text in Romans 9, Jacob I love, but Esau I hated, he said in his sermon notes to his son-in-law, do not read this. And he also said, when you preach the Romans 9, you got to do it quick, like ripping off a band-aid, because if you dwell too long in the texts, people are going to start being confused, and they're going to be misreading the Bible and misunderstanding things.
The man was just basically afraid of what the inerrant,.
God-breathed word was saying in that chapter. Yeah, I think liberalism developed against liberalism, and liberalism was identified specifically with universities, and that's where liberalism was coming from.
So many fundamentalists were afraid of education, and they avoided it. And that's what I think, rather than get into the meat and study of Scripture to deal with the depth of Scripture, they began to use this, and everything was defended by Jesus, because they just prayed, I think.
He struggled to study with the lack of intelligence, theological intelligence, and it was a fascinating study, the life of E .W. Pink and the development of Reformed literature even to this day. But there was that fear of education.
In fact, I've had ministers, I've had a colleague, a friend of mine, say to me, I don't need history, all I need is my Bible. That has been heard over and over again. That basically means, I am so smart that I don't.
Need a teacher. That's basically what it means, because obviously you're discounting centuries of the most brilliant minds that ever lived within Christendom. You think, oh, I don't need them. You know, I'm smart enough to know what I need to know, and even better than anybody else or whatever.
But we are going to go just to a break right now, and before I go to that break, I want to read you another question, because it's fairly lengthy, and I'll have you answer it when I come back from the break.
And in fact, I will also email you the question again as well. This is from my listener in Slovenia, Joe in Slovenia. He says, Dear Brother Chris, while I wholeheartedly agree with the need to critique what became the fundamentalist movement that engaged heavily in culture war politics, I think it is unwise to surrender to the term fundamentalist or fundamentals.
As has been pointed out, the historical beginnings of fundamentalism were solidly biblical conservativism. If we abandon the term fundamentalist and the fundamentals because some have abused them, then we must also abandon the terms Calvinism and reform for the same reasons.
What can be done to restate the fundamentals of the Christian faith in an effort to reform modern evangelicalism without falling into the error of partisan politics? Thanks for fundamentally sharpening us today.
Well, I'm going to be emailing this question to you from Joe in Slovenia, Aaron, and then we will have you answer it when we return from our break that we are having right now and that we are entering into, I should say.
And if anybody else would like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. Chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away, we will be right back after these messages. Paul wrote to the church at Galatia,.
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Find Harvey Cedars on Facebook or at hcbible .org, hcbible .org. Call 609 -494 -5689, 609 -494 -5689. Harvey Cedars, where Christ finds people and changes lives. Well, we are back with our guest for today, Aaron Dunlop, who is a native of Northern Ireland, a graduate of Geneva Reform Seminary in South Carolina, an author and the founder of thinkgospel .com.
We are discussing his book, Confessions of a Fundamentalist, and I, before the break, was reading you the question that we received from Joe in Slovenia, and I will read that to you again, even though you have the question in front of you, I'll read it for the benefit of the audience, especially those that tuned in late.
But Joe in Slovenia says,. While I wholeheartedly agree with the need to critique what became the fundamentalist movement that engaged heavily in culture war politics, I think it is unwise to surrender the term fundamentalist or the fundamentals.
As has been pointed out, the historical beginnings of fundamentalism were solidly biblical conservatism. If we abandon the term fundamentalist and the fundamentals because some have abused them, then we must also abandon the terms Calvinism and reform for the same reasons.
What can be done to restate the fundamentals of the Christian faith in an effort to reform modern evangelicalism without falling into the error of partisan politics? If you could, Aaron, respond to Joe in Slovenia.
Hello, Joe. The idea of terms, we all need labels, and many have jettisoned the term fundamentalist and fundamentalism because of the association, the negative association that has developed around that.
I think it comes down to the intensity of abuse in a given term. The word gay was used historically to mean happy. It's to use today to speak of a particular. We don't use the term gay today. While it is historically and linguistically a good term, we don't use it.
So the intensity of abuse determines whether we want to jettison a term or not. I'm not necessarily defending the jettisoning of the term. I still hold to the fundamentals. In particular, company, i .e., in the company where I can explain myself at many terms, term that has been, and you mentioned in your question also, this engaging heavily.
That is one of the problems historically of fundamentalism. We engaged in culture wars. Back in the 1980s, Jerry Falwell published The Fundamentalist Phenomenon, and in that book, his final chapter, when Jerry Falwell spoke of him, he was talking of the moral majority, a political movement.
But you have today men who speak of a resurgence of fundamentalism in the little book, The Spectrum of Evangelicalism. Roger Olson speaks of men like Al Mohler and John Piper, and those men who are defending key aspects of theology as a resurgence of fundamentalism.
So I don't think the term is going to stay. The term conservative evangelicalism is typically the term that is used now, and I think, as I mentioned, to melt the two, the fundamentalists and the evangelicals, together into what I call the evangelical identity.
I think I hope that answers your question.
Well, thank you, Joe, in Slovenia. And guess what? Especially since you've provided an American address in Georgia, you are getting a copy of Confessions of a Fundamentalist, where we are shipping this to your daughter in Georgia and to your attention.
And we thank you so much for participating in today's program. This is being given to you compliments of the publishers, tent makers, publishers who provided these copies of the book today. And also compliments of Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com, cv for Cumberland Valley, bbs for BibleBookService .com.
We'll be shipping that book out to you, and we thank Todd and Patty Jennings again for their faithful support of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. And that's interesting. You mentioned Jerry Falwell. The majority, if not all, of the fundamentalists that I know who are friends of mine and some just acquaintances, they would have viewed Jerry Falwell as a compromising liberal.
Right. That's correct.
And my co-host, Reverend Buzz Taylor, has a question.
Well, since you brought up Jerry Falwell, I might as well tell you just a little bit about my background with the issue.
This is my co-host, Buzz Taylor.
As you already know, I did graduate from Bob Jones University in the late 70s. And it took me a while to get used to the fact that there were other people outside of Bob Jones that actually loved the Lord and were serving him and so forth.
I was definitely in that fundamentalist mold that many people respond negatively to. And I remember, as I was preparing for being a pastor, that my biggest concern of pastoring wasn't so much my theology as it was, well, am I going to accidentally befriend myself to the wrong person and become known as a neo-evangelical and ousted from fundamentalism because I didn't know?
Because it was such a long list of who you could hang out with and who you couldn't. And if you send a lot of students to Bob Jones University, you could do a lot of stuff. But if you didn't, you couldn't.
And I saw so much of this kind of stuff going on there. And it was with the publishing of Jerry Falwell's magazine that I understand didn't really last too long, but it was called the Fundamentalist Journal.
And in the first few issues of the Fundamentalist Journal, he went through and described some of the history of fundamentalism. And it was the first time I realized, now something that I had considered myself a part of for like five years, all of a sudden I started to realize what it really was about.
It wasn't all the who's who's. Well, of course, this didn't come up in our conversation, Aaron, but it had a lot to do with the Niagara Bible Conference at Alcott, New York, and some of the meetings there.
And that's when I realized it centered in on certain truths of the faith that they considered needed to be defended and narrowed it down to the inspiration of the Bible, the virgin birth and deity of Christ, the blood atonement, the bodily resurrection, and the second coming.
Under those titles, there were a lot of groups that could have been included in fundamentalism that weren't because of things like long sideburns and wire rimmed glasses and things like that. But could you explain a little bit more about how the Niagara Bible Conference at Alcott fits in?
Because you mentioned a lot of the history in Ireland and in Canada, but I didn't hear much about the United States.
Well, I'm not going to admit that I'm an expert on American fundamentalism. Most of the books are released from, and it is, in that sense, autobiographical. But it's also written from my research that may have been admitting the faults that I had already identified, but nobody was ever delusional.
And I deal with that in fundamentalism, which is in its own tale. You know, these issues, the war psychology, the nth degree separation, those are issues that men were struggling with. Fundamentalist movement developed in America, as you mentioned the Agro there.
We ought not to forget also that the church in Canada established in America.
Now, in reading the description of your book on the Solid Ground Christian Books website, which is the American location for anybody wishing to order the book later on, if you live here in the United States, solid-ground-books .com, who sponsored this program, solid-ground-books .com, the description, in the description of your book, it says, this book was never intended to be a book, but the very people the author wrote about wanted him to publish it.
Can you explain that?
Yes, I just mentioned the Brethren there, and even since I published Brethrenism, and entering into, they have identified in the Brethren movement, the things that I'm writing about, this myopic, separatistic mentality.
And so I'm discovering now, after publishing it, that there's a brawny in fundamentalism in the movement that we know, but in the Brethren, when I wrote the articles, I was many of my own in Ireland. That's why I called it the Confessions of a Fundamentalist.
I was looking at a review of the book online, and an individual was complaining that this was just, wasn't really a book, there was no theme in the book. Well, I titled it the Confessions of a Fundamentalist because I'm dealing with specific items that I'm dealing with in the book, and it was resonating with my generation and the younger generation.
You know, I mentioned back in the 1980s, people remember the travesty of MacArthur's position, and I remember in the late 80s, the belligerence and the stand against John MacArthur. And I mentioned it in the book.
I believe he was teaching fundamentalists the whole idea of the death of Christ.
Yeah, but didn't it make it very superstitious in regard to the physical blood of Christ?
Yeah, not all fundamentalists would have followed rigidly what they got.
He was basically saying that the shed blood of Christ was the prophesied way that God was going to atone sin, and the death of Christ and his receiving the wrath of the Father on Calvary were the important things.
It was not that the blood had some kind of magical property. Isn't that what he was basically saying, rightly saying?
Right, that's correct. And I've heard preachers, myself heard preachers saying that the blood of Jesus cleanses us the same way as bleach cleans a toilet. In my mind, that's unfortunate. John MacArthur was teaching that the death of Christ necessitated bloodshedding.
And the blood, the references to the blood, which is the death of Christ, is a metonym for his bloody death. It's not the blood of Christ that is the bloodshedding of Christ, and it's that nuance that's so hard.
In fact, that person who came up with the analogy of the bleach and the toilet being an allegory for the blood of Christ cleansing us, and it's the same thing, that person doesn't understand sin. He doesn't understand the depravity, the depths of evil that are involved in men's sin.
Because if you want to use a proper analogy, it would not only be that the toilet was cleaned with Clorox, it would have been that the house was razed to the ground and a brand new mansion was erected with brand new plumbing.
Right, yeah.
I mean, it wasn't just cleaning like a stain off of the... I mean, that's a really poor analogy that he was giving.
Well, it is a poor analogy, but the Bible...
We have CJ in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, who says you were talking about the fundamentalists being guilty of preaching myopic separation. Could you please differentiate between that and the separation that we as Christians should all be involved in?
Obviously, I am hoping that you do not believe that we have ecumenical relationships with Roman Catholics and those who are liberals on issues including homosexuality and abortion. Can you please be more specific about what you mean by myopic separation?
Well, I think you're talking about taking the fundamentalists, the fundamentalism in America alone, men who separated from other men because of the fundamentalist movement.
Yeah, I mean, some of the separation that I have experienced in regard to having it explained to me by my fundamentalist Baptist friends is so much involved in micromanaging, it becomes pharisaic and it becomes arrogant and self-righteous.
It becomes ridiculous to a point where I don't fellowship with that church because in their library they have books by R .C. Sproul and R .C. Sproul has made very favorable comments about Thomas Aquinas and that kind of a thing.
That's where you're entering into the realm of insanity at some point, aren't you?
That's correct. I don't want to brush them all with the same, all fundamentalism, so I like to refer to those who, because you have men trolling the internet at publishing houses to see whether they're using different versions, to see what maps they use in their Bibles, and calling for separation, the minutiae, and to me that is, that I would call fundamentalism.
Yeah, I have a friend who is a fundamentalist Baptist pastor who actually for years in my dialogue with him was saying some very refreshing and encouraging things about we have to get back to the roots of why the fundamentalist movement was required and we have to get away from legalism and slandering our brethren by exaggerating their flaws and things like that.
Right.
And he was going on and on but then he refused to attend a conference that I was attending because somebody that I know and love and respect, in fact I believe he's one of the most powerful preachers in the world, he said I'm not going there because that man is preaching there and he has preached in churches where they accept rap music.
So it's not even that the man that was preaching accepted rap music, it's that he's preached in places that have accepted rap music. And I told him, wouldn't you preach in a Jehovah's Witness Kingdom hall if you were invited?
I mean, if you were given free reign to proclaim the gospel to those people, wouldn't you go? I mean, so I think that's where you're getting, I think it's tragically sad and self-righteous, I can't help but use that term.
Yes, you know, I mentioned earlier the fundamentalist movement in British Columbia, which was the separation of America. And that model that spurred on it, it did not throw the baby out of the bag in America.
And I think about the initial separation, I use that term in my book, these men were known as moderate fundamentalists and, you know, they took their stand, they obviously separated, some of them Urbain and the moderate.
In fact, didn't he also rebuke fairly sternly. J .I.
Packer and John Stott for their ecumenism?
There was, as I mentioned this in the book, Lloyd-Jones at that stage wanted...
Yes, Michael Haken is one of my favorite guests here on Iron Trip and Zion Radio. He's a really brilliant man and a very humble and precious brother in Christ. I'm going to read a question to you again and I'm going to go to a break because it's fairly lengthy and have you answer the question when we return from the break.
I'm also going to email it to you again so you have it right in front of you. Oh, and by the way, C .J. and Lindenhurst Long Island, you have won the final copy of Confessions of a Fundamentalist by Aaron Dunlop, compliments of Tentmaker Publishing and also compliments of the Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com.
So thank you very much for the question. We have Murray in Kinross, Scotland, who says, To confirm what Aaron Dunlop has just said concerning Ian Paisley, I heard the big man give a lecture on Augustus Toplady, during which he declared, I'm a five-point Calvinist and all my five points are sharp.
He then proceeded to promote the Gospel fully and unapologetically. I was interested in the comments regarding the Free Presbyterian Church and Arminianism, Bob Jones University and Hyper-Calvinism. Do you think that Ian Paisley et al would have been conscious that Arminian associations and a full and passionate preaching of the Gospel would do no harm at all in a country like Northern Ireland with a large open brethren movement?
It would surely make the Free Presbyterian Church a lot more welcoming place than some of the very narrow Gospel halls in Northern Ireland with their rules and regulations. And that was Murray in Kinross, Scotland.
And I will have you respond to Murray when we return from the break, Aaron. And if anybody else would like to join us on the air with a question of your own before we run out of time, and we are running out of time fairly rapidly, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.
Chrisarnson at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA. And you may remain anonymous if it makes you feel more comfortable.
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Well, we are back and we are going to conclude our conversation over the next 25 minutes or so with Aaron Dunlop, a native of Northern Ireland, graduate of Geneva Reform Seminary in Greenville, South Carolina.
And he is the author of a book we are discussing today, Confessions of a Fundamentalist. And if you'd like to join us, our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. Well, before the break, as you know, Aaron, we had a listener in Kinross, Scotland.
And that was Murray in Kinross, Scotland. And he says, to confirm what Aaron Dunlop has just said concerning Ian Paisley, I heard the big man give a lecture on Augustus Toplady, during which he declared, I'm a five-point Calvinist and all my five points are sharp.
He then proceeded to promote the gospel fully and unapologetically. I was interested in the comments regarding the Free Presbyterian Church and Arminianism slash Bob Jones University and hyper-Calvinism.
Do you think that Paisley et al would have been conscious that Arminian associations in a full and passionate preaching of the gospel would do no harm at all in a country, Northern Ireland, with a large open brethren movement?
It would surely make the Free Presbyterian Church a more welcoming place than some of the very narrow gospel holes in Northern Ireland, with their rules and regulations. Can you comment on Murray in Kinross, Scotland's comments and questions?
Well, I hope I'm a five-point Calvinist and all my five points are unapologetic. Association with Bob Jones and friends in it.
Well, thank you.
Go ahead. I'm sorry. Are you there, brother?
Yes, sorry.
I interrupted you. Go ahead.
I'm just saying I hope that answers Murray's question.
Okay. Well, thank you, Murray, in Kinross, Scotland. And keep listening to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and keep providing us with excellent questions for our guests. Keep spreading the word about the program in Scotland and beyond.
We have Seth in Greensboro, North Carolina, who says,. Most fundamental churches here in the South use the King James Version translation, even though some are not KJV only. Why do you suppose so many refuse to use modern translations such as the NASB or ESV, etc.?
Do you believe it's traditional reasons, legalistic reasons, or perhaps other reasons? And I'm sure you wouldn't disagree with me, Aaron. It could be all of those reasons that he gave.
Yeah, I think you probably find when you analyze that all of the above fundamentalists, as I said before, interested in maintaining a particular. And that's another fascinating study, especially in the South, in the Bible Belt.
Or an interesting book that you might want to read is Russell Moore's book Onward, Engaging the Culture Without Losing the Gospel. And in that book, he says the Bible Belt is tickering. And I say, let it fall.
And it's a very, it's an extremely interesting idea that he's presenting here. And I think it's a novel idea to many Americans. If the Bible Belt falls, the loss of the Bible Belt may be bad news for America, but it can be good news for the church.
I think fundamentalism has tried for too long to maintain and they're losing the church, the substance and depth of the church. And that would be my contention, to maintain a culture, a Christian culture.
And, you know, I think that you could link that in with its desire to use the, many of them believe, obviously, that the King James is the best translation. The KJV only, not only maintain that the King James is the best translation, they reject all other translations.
That I have an issue.
Yes, in fact, a free Presbyterian church pastor once said to me that although he exclusively uses the King James version, he told me that he believed it was heresy to declare one of the other modern, one of the modern respected translations as not being the word of God.
He actually said that that would be heresy, which many King James only advocates would very vociferously claim.
That's true. I agree with, I agree with some of that. So I think it comes down to personal.
And of course, some of it is, it seems, it seems like really superstition, not very far off from the right wing of the traditionalist Catholics that insist on Latin in their masses. You have these people from New York and the south of the United States insisting upon Old English in their Bible.
It makes really no sense. Obviously, somebody, I don't agree with the argument of TR only or Textus Receptus only, but they would have more of an argument that was respectable than a King James only. Especially when you consider there were no Baptists on the translation committee of the King James Bible, and they were Baptists actually being executed in England in 1611.
So it makes no sense that Baptists would be King James only to me at all.
Right. Yeah, I haven't heard the link between one guy and another.
Amen.
Look at this.
I was just going to say that it seems that a lot of fundamentalists, they only read what other fundamentalists say in opposition to things like reformed theology and so on. They don't really read the reformers or the Puritans themselves.
They are, and of course, I don't mean the broad brush, but I'm saying those that are very often the most vociferous in their hatred for the reformed faith and other things outside of their circles. They don't even read the people that they are attacking and very often slandering, because they're only reading those that also attack those people.
And I think that's why the fundamentalist movement, if the movement is still alive, it's on palliative care. But the reason why the movement has been deteriorating in the past 40 years, especially the past 10 years, I think there's an increase.
And that is because many young people now are on the internet. They discover that John MacArthur has been preaching the gospel for 40 years, when many of the fundamentalists were denying that and they were listening to him.
And so the fact that they have gotten it wrong on men like John MacArthur, who have been preaching the gospel, that has undermined the integrity of many fundamentalists. And if they've gotten it wrong on this, well, what else have they gotten it wrong on?
And so a lot of young men are going to fundamentalist colleges, already conversant with Reformed theology, because they're listening to it. The only men who are writing are Reformed. All these men, Al Mohler, they're listening to these guys.
And they're going into fundamentalist colleges, already conversant with Reformed theology. And so I think...
In fact, one of the things that I'm sure you agree that the worst element of fundamentalism is far too often throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
They...
Like, for instance, some of those men that you listed, who are very popular amongst Reformed Christians, like Al Mohler and John Piper and some others. I've had Dr. Mohler on this program. I have not yet had John Piper on the program.
But they say things at times that I disagree with. And a typical knee-jerk reaction of a fundamentalist will be, well, I don't want anything to do with him because he said that. He won't listen to any of the other brilliant things that the man said, or insightful biblical things that the man said.
And he will not only not read anything else by that person, but he won't even associate with anybody who likes that person. You know, it's that kind of a thing that really becomes, you know, like I was saying before, it borders on insanity, that you cannot learn greatly from someone even if you disagree with them.
That's right. And, you know, I think we have to learn to disagree respectfully and be able to, like eating fish, eat the meat and leave the bones. You know, you disagree with somebody, well, we have to identify whether it's a fundamental upon which we disagree or a secondary issue.
That, I think...
Is fundamentalism chasing its own tail?
You know, and part of this whole study, I've discovered when I've read fundamentalist writers, they've been complaining for 40 years about the war psychology. There's been, in fact, the World Congress of Christian Fundamentalists was developed in 1956 with Paisley and Bob Jones, specifically to counter the problem of schism and division among fundamentalists.
And so for 40 years, and this shocked me and discouraged me, actually, when I discovered, for 40 years, the fundamentalist movement had been dealing with the issues that I struggled with and that my generation and the next generation are now struggling with.
And it disappointed me that they've never been able to deal with the issues. They've never been able to address the issues correctly because I think they've had the ball and chain of a war psychology that they're not going to let go of.
And that's going to drag it down and kill it. I think it has pretty much.
What do you mean by...
In that respect...
Go ahead, you can continue.
Sorry, in that respect, I believe it is chasing...
Who are the fundamentalist, silent, moderate majority, in your opinion?
They're men in the movement, friends of mine, what I'm writing about. But for the sake of the movement, they are unwilling to...
You know, that means something right there. There's something very significant about that because what I have noticed in my associations and friendships with fundamentalists, and I can tell you that I think that there is something similar, perhaps even going on with reformed Christians in certain circles, is that there is a fear amongst ministers not to be fundamentalist enough or reformed enough.
And especially with the fundamentalists, there is an up-one-manship, if you know what I'm saying, where there is almost a contest on who can hate rock music more and who could be more old-fashioned than the other church.
And there's a fear of being accused of liberalism or moderate thinking by other fundamentalists. And I write that there seems to be men plagued with fear.
Well, yeah, it's the same on the other side. You go to the reformed movement, and this individual comes out of Arminianism, and he becomes...
A caged-stage Calvinist, yeah.
That's right. We have to cage him for the first 10 years of the reformed movement like that, and it's not checked.
What do you mean by fundamentalism and the new conservative evangelicalism identity? Well, I believe you mentioned it before, but perhaps you could articulate more on that.
Yeah, that's just this idea that in broad evangelicalism, there's an orthodoxy, finding men who are some dyes.
Well, if you could, wrap up what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners before they leave this broadcast today.
That idea, actually, of a unified church and to get away from...
Well, we have time for one more question from a listener. We have BB in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, who says, I cannot understand the love that fundamentalists have for Charles Finney. Fundamentalists typically despise Roman Catholic religion with a passion, and yet they embrace Finney as a hero, and he undoubtedly was more Pelagian than even the most ardent Roman Catholic.
If you could respond to that.
Well, yeah, Finney obviously popularized revivalism, which fundamentalism carried on. But they did not see it, obviously, they were Arminian. But they did not, again, I think they lost touch with the theology and were more interested in the practice of evangelizing.
That's what they would identify with Finney, the practice of evangelizing.
Yeah, they obviously haven't really read Finney, even though they act as if he's a hero, because Finney clearly believed in a works righteousness salvation.
And many of them, you know, many of... I think it was more Billy Graham, by the way. I would not so much...
And that's ironic, too, because Billy Graham is an extremist in the ecumenical movement and so on.
Perhaps it was when Billy Graham was younger and known as a firebrand. In fact, he was known in his initial stages as a preacher, as a fundamentalist.
And he made a conscious decision to side with the liberals and others because he knew that they would be larger crowds and so on. That's what I've heard when I read...
Went to Bob Jones University. And for your listeners, do a study on key evangelicals in North America who got their grounding, their heritage in fundamentalism. It's a fascinating study. We owe fundamentalism a great debt.
But I'm dealing with the issues that developed in the movement. But you do a study, key men in the evangelical church in North America.
Well, don't forget that our guest's website is thinkgospel .com, thinkgospel .com. If you live in the United States and you want to purchase a copy of Confessions of a Fundamentalist, go to solid-ground-books .com, solid-ground-books .com.
You can also go to Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service's website, cvbbs .com, cv for Cumberland Valley, bbs for BibleBookService .com. If you live in the UK, go to tentmaker .org .uk, tentmaker .org .uk, and you can purchase the book there more affordably in the UK.
I want to thank everybody for listening today. I want to thank you, Aaron Dunlop, for being my guest. I want you all to have a safe, blessed, and wonderful weekend, especially on the Lord's Day. I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.