May 19, 2017 Show with Aaron Dunlop on “Confessions of a Fundamentalist”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Now here's our host, Chris Arntzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living

on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming.

This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Friday on this

19th day of May 2017.

I am very happy to have as my guest today for the very first time

Aaron Dunlop.

He is a native of Northern Ireland and he's a graduate of Geneva Reform Seminary in

South Carolina, which is the seminary of the Free Presbyterian Church of North

America.

He is an author and he's the founder of ThinkGospel .com.

Today we are discussing his book, Confessions of a Fundamentalist, and it's my honor and privilege to

welcome you for the very first time to Iron Sharpens Iron, Aaron Dunlop.

Thank you, Chris.

And in studio with me is my co -host, the Reverend Buzz Taylor.

Also a former fundamentalist.

Thank you, good to be here.

And if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is ChrisArntzen at

gmail .com.

Chris

give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

But if you must remain anonymous due to a personal and private matter that you're asking about, perhaps you

disagree with your own pastor or your own spouse or your own family on a certain

theological issue involving our topic, well we will grant your request to remain

anonymous if it makes you feel more comfortable.

Otherwise, please give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside of the

USA.

And Aaron, before we even go into the discussion of the book, Confessions

of a Fundamentalist, I'd like to know something.

About ThinkGospel .com.

What exactly is that?

ThinkGospel .com was a website that I began a number of years ago while I was pastoring in

Victoria, and it was a very

simple presentation of the Gospel.

It was an evangelistic outreach of our church.

It developed into a blog.

I dealt with many historical issues and biblical issues, simple Gospel

questions, and it has since developed.

Into a daily devotional.

Yes, I've looked it over.

It's quite an impressive website, and for any of our listeners who would like to investigate that

website later, it's ThinkGospel .com, T -H -I -N -K

-Gospel .com.

And I'd like to know also something about your upbringing, the

religion of your childhood, if any, and how eventually our Sovereign Lord providentially

drew you to.

Himself and saved you.

Okay, I would just say I tell my children that

Think Gospel should be their model.

In many ways, it's

through the Gospel.

Soon after

his

conversion,

I entered the Theological Hall

or the Seminary

of the...

Praise God.

Well, from my

understanding

over the.

Years, I've gotten to know a number of Free Presbyterian pastors and members

of the Free Presbyterian Church.

In fact, they are some of my favorite preachers.

Very powerful, Gospel -centered, unwaveringly committed

to the truths of Scripture, no matter how unpopular.

And I have been very impressed.

In fact, many years ago, John Greer, who is

now back in Northern Ireland, he was at one time pastor of the

Free Presbyterian Church of Malvern, Pennsylvania, and he had come

at my invitation to the church where I was a member, and he participated in a Bible

conference at Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island, located in Merrick, New York.

And I have just really gotten to love a lot of what I have been hearing

preached from these men.

In fact, Dr. Mark Allison, who is now the president of Geneva Reform Seminary, where you graduated

in South Carolina, he has been a guest on my program a number of times.

So, from what I understand, the Free Presbyterian Church.

Of North America was founded by Ian Paisley, am I right?

That's correct.

He was involved in the founding.

In my book, I dedicated to five of the elders who left the Irish Presbyterian Church.

And while Ian Paisley's name is most generally associated with the founding, I believe that

the five elders need recognition, because they

sacrificed.

At that time, Ian Paisley was a young...

They applied to him.

In fact, it was around in March of 1951 that a mission was denied them,

that access was denied.

It revolved

around

him, that's

correct, March

1951.

And it is a very conservative denomination.

In fact, some of our listeners, or perhaps even most of our listeners, will be

surprised to learn that not all Presbyterians believe in infant

baptism, because quite a number of the pastors within the Free Presbyterian Church of North America and the

Free Presbyterian Church of Ulster, the mother church, if you will, many of the

men in the ministry in that denomination are actually Baptists in regard to the ordinance.

They believe in believers baptized by immersion only, but there are paedo -baptists as well in the

ministry of this denomination.

And I know that the word Presbyterian in the name is more in regard to the polity of the

denomination.

That pines up,

of course,

to the

founding of

the church.

The five elders who live

there are

no longer a member.

I'm sorry, brother?

I am no longer a member of the Free Presbyterian.

Yeah, it's interesting.

I'm writing from that perspective.

Yes.

It's interesting that you said that there's the majority of men in the ministry of the Free

Presbyterian Church are credo -Baptist, believers only Baptist

in regard to the ordinances.

I have yet to meet a paedo -Baptist in the Free Presbyterian Church, but I'm sure

that they're there.

I keep hearing that there are some there.

There are, yeah.

Well, the book that you have written, quite a provocative title, Confessions of a Fundamentalist, I

think it probably would be wise for us to have you define what

is a fundamentalist or what is fundamentalism, because in this day and age, in the 21st century,

the majority of people hearing that term are not hearing it in regard to Christianity, they're hearing it in regard to

Islam.

And that's obviously not a very flattering thing to be associated with that type of

fundamentalism, which involves violence and all kinds of things.

But obviously, there is an entirely different meaning to fundamentalist Christianity,.

And if you could define that for me.

Well, fundamentalist Christianity has, as it

is

known

today, is

known

from a

negative

perspective

still, and

that's

why

many

people...

Yes, I often feel awkward when someone, it would typically be

an unbeliever or perhaps a liberal who would ask me on occasion, are you a fundamentalist?

And I have an awkward feeling in saying no, because I know that the

origins of fundamentalism were very noble and biblical.

And so I typically say, well, what do you mean by that?

And then if they define something that I am against, I will tell them what I oppose

in their definition, and I will elaborate more on what I believe.

But I really don't like totally jettisoning the term

fundamentalist and, you know, abandoning it altogether.

Right.

There is today the term a resurgent fundamentalism, and that

is coming from more progressive evangelicals who look upon men such as

Al Mohler, John MacArthur, John Piper, who are taking their stand on many issues

in current theological debate, and they look upon those men as a resurgent

fundamentalism.

But the title, fundamentalist movement, what is being jettisoned

and what is being disliked among evangelicals is the idea of a movement that was not only a

theological movement, but a political movement, a cultural movement.

You know, in America, fundamentalism was closely associated with MacArthur's fight against

communism, the moral majority in

the 1970s and 80s, which was closely linked with the Reagan government.

In Northern Ireland, it was closely linked with anti -Catholicism and the unionist

fight against, and in Canada, it was

closely linked also

with many sermons of the fundamentalists.

And I

want

to remind our listeners about our email address.

It's.

Chrisarnsen at gmail .com, c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com.

If you have a question for our guest on fundamentalism and specifically on his own

theological journey, but before I go to any of our listener questions,

if you could really describe the development of the movement.

I mean, you've already mentioned some of it, but can you get into more detail on the development of the

fundamentalist movement?

Please.

Yes, and what you are addressing in that chapter in your book.

Okay, yeah.

Well, I link my studies specifically, a

couple of things.

I'm working on a biography of the first fundamentalist split in North America, which

happened in Vancouver in 1927.

And the key figure there was a man called J .B. Rowell.

He's unknown to many evangelicals and fundamentalists today, but I'm working on his biography.

So that study developed.

And then as a new generation is coming into the church and I

discover that many are leaving fundamentalism, I began to ask myself the question, what's wrong and why

is fundamentalism losing?

And that's where the studies were born out of.

The development I link with the three countries, the only three countries in the world in which

I've developed were America, Canada, and

Northern Ireland.

And my studies particularly deal with Canada,

fundamentalism in America.

Well, I may need a lot to learn about it because it's.

Not something that was actually much a part of my background.

So don't cut yourself short there.

Right.

We

have

Ronald

in

Eastern

Suffolk

County, Long

Island, New

York,

who

wants

to

know,.

The thing that always puzzled me about the friendship between Bob Jones University and Ian Paisley

is that Bob Jones University has had a history of being vehemently anti -Calvinist, and yet

Ian Paisley seems to have been an unwavering,

strong, committed Calvinist.

How could this friendship continue with the two theological systems being in such

strong opposition to one another?

That's one

of the anomalies.

One person

read about that, but he saw

Cal 1990s, he practiced the altar call,

evangelism.

Right.

What was the first thing you said before the altar call?

I didn't hear what you said.

I'm sorry.

That Ian Paisley was a Calvinist.

Right.

No doubt about that.

But even his association with Bob Jones, both of them together were very

anti -hyper -Calvinistic, and they made statements, the Congress of Fundamentalists

made statements against hyper -Calvinism.

So they found a common bond in their fight against the hyper -Calvinism.

But Ian Paisley, as I said before, was a soft Calvinist.

The hard edges of hyper -Calvinism were well knocked off him.

Ian Paisley was a phenomenal gospel preacher, and

passionate.

He was very much in the background when it came to the preaching of the gospel, and they're

engaged in altar calls and so forth.

Yeah, he would have to have compromised on Calvinism to have the altar calls.

It's interesting, though, that the men that I have met within the ministry in the Free Presbyterian Church of North

America, they seem to be very committed Calvinists, unwaveringly so.

Yes, and

you know, in mind also when I

discuss,

and I

would say,

and many would

be genuine,

I

cannot.

I think

I mentioned

that in

the

last

chapter

of the

book.

And you go on to a chapter that you have titled,

Conviction, Courage, and Biblical Authority,.

If you could tell us about that.

Well, that chapter's fundamentalism.

That's what

MacArthur

has been,

and I

discovered

in class I would

be

afraid

of the

Christian

colleges

toward

other

men.

The

New

Evangelicals of yesteryear, I think,

were so busy trying to live with a conscience void of offense toward man that many of

them ignored.

But the two are not mutually exclusive.

The Bible doesn't give us commands that are mutually exclusive, and both are possible.

And that is that balance in the middle.

There is a better way

to fundamentalism, and that's the balance that

I'm calling for.

You know, I don't want to, and I

wrote that chapter, I don't want to jettison, I

don't want to.

And so I'm walking, I realize that I'm walking a very fine line

in defending fundamentalism.

And by the way, I think I forgot to tell Ronald in Eastern Suffolk County, Long Island, New York, that you have won a

free copy of Confessions of a Fundamentalist by our guest today, Aaron Dunlop,

and that's compliments of Tentmaker Publications, and also compliments of our friends at

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, that's CV for Cumberland Valley, BBS for Bible Book Service,

who will be sending out that copy to you.

And look for a return address on the shipping label that says CVBBS .com,

CV for Cumberland Valley, BBS for Bible Book Service .com.

And we thank Todd and Petty Jennings, the owners of CVBBS

.com for their faithfulness in supporting Iron Sharp and Zion Radio, and for shipping out all of our

winners in our audience, their free Bibles, books, DVDs, CDs, and other items

that we give away to those submitting questions.

So hopefully you'll be getting that in the mail very soon, Ronald, and keep listening to Iron Sharp and Zion, and keep

spreading the word about it in Suffolk County, Long Island, New York, and beyond.

And we're going to be right back, God willing, after these messages, so don't go

away.

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Welcome back to the program.

If you just tuned us in, our guest today is Aaron Dunlop, a native of Northern Ireland, graduate

of Geneva Reform Seminary in South Carolina.

He's an author and founder of ThinkGospel .com.

We are discussing his book, Confessions of a Fundamentalist, and if you'd like to join us on the air with a

question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you

live outside of the USA, and you may remain anonymous if it makes you feel more comfortable.

And I have a question from Aaron in Indianapolis, Indiana.

She says, Greetings to Mr. Dunlop from a member of the Free Presbyterian Church in Indianapolis

and follower of ThinkGospel .com.

Thank you for that devotional site.

Excuse my ignorance, but could you please educate me quickly on how the fundamentalist movement in

Ireland related or fit into the history of the Catholic

-Christian tensions in that country?

Right.

Well, it's outside of the purview of my book, but it's a very fascinating question, and I think

it relates also to the fundamentalist movement in North America.

And that goes back to what I believe is what I call the

British Empire developed counter -movement or in direct

tension against Catholic Europe.

The British meant that you were Protestant.

The two were synonymous, went together.

When that came over to Canada, you had men like T .T. Shields.

In fact, most of the early fundamentalists in Canada were British -born.

In my subject, in my book, the biography that I'm working on was British -born.

T .T. Shields was British -born, and a number of other men in Canada were British.

The

fight,

I believe, is also seen in North America, in America rather, and

there's a fight not just to maintain,

there's a fight

between Northern Ireland, it's

a very complex

1921 to stuff in the history, and

that's the fight even today, unionism.

Ian Pearsley.

Thank

you so much, Aaron, from Indianapolis, Indiana, and you have also won a free copy of.

Confessions of a Fundamentalist by our guest Aaron Dunlop, compliments of

Tentmaker Publications and compliments of CVBBS .com, Cumberland Valley

Bible Book Service at CVBBS .com.

You also have a chapter that really, I think, gets at the heart of what we are

discussing today, it's titled The Dangers of the Fundamentalist Mentality.

Yes, this mentality

is a chapter that deals specifically with the gospel, and as I

pondered fundamentalism and what it developed into, I could see,

both by experience and by what I was reading in the history of fundamentalism, I could

see fault lines developing early in the movement, and I think they

have developed into what I call in the chapter a shallow

evangelistic outreach and a tendency toward legalistic holiness.

I think the two, and

the shallow evangelistic outreach, and don't get me wrong, fundamentalists

were evangelistic.

In fact, the church in North America grew exponentially because of

fundamentalism.

We're developing in a

fundamentalist

outreach.

It was a shallow,

and I can

see it in many circles to the gospel, this altar call where men and women

are called up the aisle.

They don't know the substance of the gospel, and many preachers are preaching the gospel.

As one man said to me, he says,

fundamentalist preachers, when I hear

statements like that within the fundamentalist church,

and I had as the problem, and why

is there this shallow evangelistic preaching?

And I think it's linked, that shallow evangelism is linked to

legalistic holiness.

If you don't know what you're saved to, if you don't know the substance and the glory

of the Christ who calls us to salvation, the sovereignty of

God, and the indwelling, then you have to

repeat the vocation with something else.

If you haven't got the fullness of Christ in the gospel as not only your Savior, but your sanctifier,

then you have to repeat.

Now obviously, we have to clarify things because of the fact that we are living in a day and age

when you have churches that would describe themselves as evangelicals that are pro

-homosexual, that are pro -same -sex marriage.

Immediately I'm thinking of Matthew Vines, who is a self

-identified homosexual or gay man.

I don't use that term myself because I don't think it's appropriate of that

movement to be robbing good words from our vocabulary and identifying themselves that

way.

But there are people who say the very same

things about you and I, and about basic, you know, ordinary

born -again Christians who have biblical morality, and they will say, well, you know, you're just

legalistic for trying to prohibit love,

marital relations between two people of the same gender.

And of course, you know, that goes to many other issues in life

where, although the fundamentalist may go overboard with

focusing or harping on the clothing that we wear,

we would be in agreement that there are some women who walk into churches that you could not tell the

difference between them and a prostitute by what they're wearing.

So, I mean, could you define exactly what you specifically mean when you are.

Talking about legalistic

holiness?

Yeah, there are

different levels

of legalism.

You know, it's very nuanced.

But the whole idea, you look at the history of fundamentalism,

geographically, the

makeup...

That was him that said that, huh?

By worldwide, I

mean by a

legalism

-oriented

world.

I think

that's

the

heart of

it.

Yeah, in 2 Timothy chapter 4, verses 3

through 4, we have Paul

saying,.

Now,

typically, that would be a

frequently preached text within fundamentalism, and it's usually

about preachers who are trying to appease people by

letting them get away with behaviors and practices that are sinful, and

trying to remove the sting of sin and

remove the fear of hell from their hearts and minds.

But isn't it true that these very same fundamentalists can be guilty of the very

same thing?

Because if you are preaching to the choir, as the saying goes, where you're always talking

about women with short skirts and men with long hair and rock and roll music

and things that the people in the congregation are not doing, and they could be

sparing these people from the actual sins that may be rampant in those

congregations, like pride, like bigotry,

like arrogance, like not helping your brother in need financially

or other ways, even sexual sins of the eyes

and heart that are not involved in scantily dressed women.

It could be people who are just privately going through their own

lusts and so on.

There are a lot of things that fundamentalists may be very guilty of that their pastors are not even addressing,

because they're only harping on the things that those outside of their own walls are doing.

Am I right on that?

Right.

Yes.

And I think, you know, when I look back, it developed

as a movement to fight against theological liberalism, but it never developed

beyond that.

And there was theological aberrance, aberrant theology that came out in the more recent

years that fundamentalists have not dealt with.

And I think in many ways, the movement was stuck in a time warp where it could defend

the virgin birth and the bodily resurrection of Christ.

But when it comes to open theism, the charismatic movement, these

issues are now being defended, not by the fundamentalists, but by what the fundamentalists would call the new

evangelicals, which is a term that they still use.

So they were stuck back in this defending the

faith against liberalism, but they never really moved beyond that.

And so they weren't preaching to their people.

And again, I'm brushing with a broad brush, and from my own experience, they weren't preaching to the people about those things that you

just mentioned, about the heart issues.

And I say in the book, in the last part of that chapter, worldliness is not so much what we reject of this world, the

material things, the pleasures, the fashions.

It has more to do with how we respond to the world around us,

about right living, as it is about right thinking.

Not so much about things as it is about thoughts.

I think fundamentalism tended to externalize holiness and missed

the internal, you know, I think of

it to write on this issue, was the struggles that I saw

my peers struggling within the movement.

And another generation coming up, the generation

rejecting fundamentalism, they were struggling with issues.

And many of them, you know, got saved out of the world, and they were thrown straight into this

defense of the faith before they knew what faith they were defending.

You know, they were told what you wear, this is how you must look, this is what you must say,

this is the Bible you must take, and without giving the reason.

And so they weren't allowed

to grow in grace.

Yes, I think that you're absolutely right,.

As far as the lack of depth, theological depth that many

within the movement have, because they are not only focused on a very

narrow circle of subjects typically,

the thing that I find amazing is that the fundamentalists whose claim to fame is

the inerrancy of scripture, and the literal interpretation of the scripture, I

find so often them being terrified of actually getting into long discussions about

certain scriptures that refute what they believe.

And I'm speaking here, particularly about the doctrines of sovereign grace or the reformed faith or Calvinism.

Now, of course, I know that there are fundamentalists who are Calvinists, who are

very strongly identified with the doctrines of sovereign grace, even if they do not use the label

Calvinist or reformed.

But I can tell you about a friend of mine who came out

of a King James only independent fundamentalist Baptist background, and

he, over the course of years that I knew him, became a full -blown

theologically reformed five -point Calvinist Baptist pastor.

And he told his father -in -law, who is very, very anti -Calvinist, his father -in

-law who's also a pastor, he told his father -in -law that he was going to be preaching on Romans 9, and he had

not yet broken the news to his father -in -law that he had come to embrace the doctrines of grace.

And he told his father -in -law he's going to be preaching on Romans 9, and his father -in -law said, wait a minute, wait a minute, you got to get my sermon

notes.

You got to get the, please look at my sermon notes first.

And he said that in the sermon notes where, for instance, the text in Romans

9, Jacob I love, but Esau I hated, he said in his sermon notes to his son -in -law,

do not read this.

And he also said, when you preach the Romans 9, you got to do it quick, like

ripping off a band -aid, because if you dwell too long in the texts,

people are going to start being confused, and they're going to be misreading the Bible

and misunderstanding things.

The man was just basically afraid of what the inerrant,.

God -breathed word was saying in that chapter.

Yeah, I think liberalism developed

against liberalism, and liberalism was identified

specifically with

universities, and that's where liberalism was coming

from.

So many fundamentalists were afraid of education, and

they avoided it.

And that's what I think, rather than get into the meat and study of

Scripture to deal with the depth of Scripture, they began to

use this, and everything was defended by Jesus,

because they just prayed, I think.

He struggled

to study with the lack of intelligence, theological

intelligence, and it was a fascinating study, the life of E .W. Pink and the development of

Reformed literature even to this day.

But there was that fear of education.

In fact, I've had ministers, I've had a colleague, a friend of mine, say to me, I don't need

history, all I need is my Bible.

That has been heard over and over again.

That basically means, I am so smart that I don't.

Need a teacher.

That's basically what it means, because obviously you're discounting centuries of the most brilliant minds that

ever lived within Christendom.

You think, oh, I don't need them.

You know, I'm smart enough to know what I need to know, and even better than anybody else or whatever.

But we are going to go just to a break right now, and before I go to that break, I want to read you

another question, because it's fairly lengthy, and I'll have you answer it when I come back from the break.

And in fact, I will also email you the question again as well.

This is from my listener in Slovenia, Joe in Slovenia.

He says, Dear Brother Chris, while I wholeheartedly agree with the need to critique what became the fundamentalist movement

that engaged heavily in culture war politics, I think it is unwise to surrender to the term

fundamentalist or fundamentals.

As has been pointed out, the historical beginnings of fundamentalism were solidly biblical

conservativism.

If we abandon the term fundamentalist and the fundamentals because some have abused them, then we must

also abandon the terms Calvinism and reform for the same reasons.

What can be done to restate the fundamentals of the Christian faith in an effort to reform modern

evangelicalism without falling into the error of partisan politics?

Thanks for fundamentally sharpening us today.

Well, I'm going to be emailing this question to you from Joe in Slovenia, Aaron, and then we

will have you answer it when we return from our break that we are having right now

and that we are entering into, I should say.

And if anybody else would like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Don't go away, we will be right back after these messages.

Paul wrote to the church at Galatia,.

For am I now seeking the approval of man or of God?

Or am I trying to please man?

If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.

Hi, I'm Mark Lukens, pastor of Providence Baptist Church.

We are a Reformed Baptist Church and we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689.

We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts.

We strive to reflect Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do

than how men view these things.

That's not the best recipe for popularity, but since that wasn't the apostles' priority, it must not be ours either.

We believe by God's grace that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man, and to be

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Well, we are back with our guest for today, Aaron Dunlop, who is a native of

Northern Ireland, a graduate of Geneva Reform Seminary in South Carolina, an author and the

founder of thinkgospel .com.

We are discussing his book, Confessions of a Fundamentalist, and I,

before the break, was reading you the question that we received from Joe

in Slovenia, and I will read that to you again, even though you have the

question in front of you, I'll read it for the benefit of the audience, especially those that tuned in late.

But Joe in Slovenia says,.

While I wholeheartedly agree with the need to critique what became the fundamentalist movement that engaged heavily in culture

war politics, I think it is unwise to surrender the term fundamentalist or the fundamentals.

As has been pointed out, the historical beginnings of fundamentalism were solidly biblical conservatism.

If we abandon the term fundamentalist and the fundamentals because some have abused them,

then we must also abandon the terms Calvinism and reform for the same reasons.

What can be done to restate the fundamentals of the Christian faith in an effort to reform modern

evangelicalism without falling into the error of partisan politics?

If you could, Aaron, respond to Joe in Slovenia.

Hello, Joe.

The idea of terms, we all need

labels, and many have jettisoned the term

fundamentalist and fundamentalism because of the association, the negative association that has

developed around that.

I think it comes down to the intensity of abuse in a given term.

The word gay was used historically to mean happy.

It's to use today to speak of a particular.

We don't use the term gay today.

While it is historically and linguistically a good term, we don't use it.

So the intensity of abuse determines whether we want to jettison a term or not.

I'm not necessarily defending the jettisoning of the term.

I still hold to the fundamentals.

In particular, company, i .e., in the company where I can explain myself

at many

terms, term that has been, and you mentioned

in your question also, this engaging heavily.

That is one of the problems historically of fundamentalism.

We engaged in culture wars.

Back in the 1980s, Jerry Falwell published The Fundamentalist Phenomenon,

and in that book, his final chapter, when Jerry

Falwell spoke of him, he was talking of the moral majority, a political movement.

But you have today men who speak of a resurgence of fundamentalism in the little book,

The Spectrum of Evangelicalism.

Roger Olson speaks of men like Al Mohler and John Piper,

and those men who are defending key aspects of theology as a resurgence of fundamentalism.

So I don't think the term is going to stay.

The term conservative evangelicalism is

typically the term that is used now, and I think, as I mentioned, to

melt the two, the fundamentalists and the evangelicals, together into what I call

the evangelical identity.

I think I hope that answers your question.

Well, thank you, Joe, in Slovenia.

And guess what?

Especially since you've provided an American address in Georgia, you are getting a copy of Confessions

of a Fundamentalist, where we are shipping this to your daughter in Georgia

and to your attention.

And we thank you so much for participating in today's program.

This is being given to you compliments of the publishers, tent makers, publishers who provided these

copies of the book today.

And also compliments of Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com, cv

for Cumberland Valley, bbs for BibleBookService .com.

We'll be shipping that book out to you, and we thank Todd and Patty Jennings again for their faithful support of

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

And that's interesting.

You mentioned Jerry Falwell.

The majority, if not all, of the fundamentalists that I know who are

friends of mine and some just acquaintances, they would have viewed Jerry Falwell as a compromising

liberal.

Right. That's correct.

And my co -host, Reverend Buzz Taylor, has a question.

Well, since you brought up Jerry Falwell, I might as well tell you just a little bit about my background with the issue.

This is my co -host, Buzz Taylor.

As you already know, I did graduate from Bob Jones University in the late 70s.

And it took me a while to get used to the fact that there were other people

outside of Bob Jones that actually loved the Lord and were serving him and so forth.

I was definitely in that fundamentalist mold that many people respond

negatively to.

And I remember, as I was preparing for being a pastor, that my biggest concern

of pastoring wasn't so much my theology as it was, well, am I going to accidentally

befriend myself to the wrong person and become known as a neo -evangelical and ousted from

fundamentalism because I didn't know?

Because it was such a long list of who you could hang out with and who you couldn't.

And if you send a lot of students to Bob Jones University, you could do a lot of stuff.

But if you didn't, you couldn't.

And I saw so much of this kind of stuff going on there.

And it was with the publishing of Jerry Falwell's magazine that I understand didn't really

last too long, but it was called the Fundamentalist Journal.

And in the first few issues of the Fundamentalist Journal, he went through and described some of the history of

fundamentalism.

And it was the first time I realized, now something that I had considered myself a part of for like five years, all of a

sudden I started to realize what it really was about.

It wasn't all the who's who's.

Well, of course, this didn't come up in our conversation, Aaron, but it had a lot to do with the

Niagara Bible Conference at Alcott, New York, and some of the meetings there.

And that's when I realized it centered in on certain truths of the faith that they

considered needed to be defended and narrowed it down to the inspiration of the Bible,

the virgin birth and deity of Christ, the blood atonement, the bodily resurrection, and the second coming.

Under those titles, there were a lot of groups that could have been included in fundamentalism

that weren't because of things like long sideburns and wire rimmed glasses and things like that.

But could you explain a little bit more about how the Niagara Bible Conference at Alcott fits in?

Because you mentioned a lot of the history in Ireland and in Canada, but I didn't hear much about

the United States.

Well, I'm not going to admit that I'm an

expert on American fundamentalism.

Most of the books are released from,

and it is, in that sense, autobiographical.

But it's also written from my research that

may have been admitting

the faults that I had already identified, but nobody was ever delusional.

And I deal with that in fundamentalism, which is in its own tale.

You know, these issues, the war psychology, the

nth degree separation, those are issues that men were

struggling with.

Fundamentalist movement developed in America, as you mentioned

the Agro there.

We

ought

not

to forget

also

that the

church in

Canada

established

in

America.

Now, in reading the description of your book on the Solid Ground Christian Books

website, which is the American location for anybody wishing to order the book later on,

if you live here in the United States, solid -ground -books .com,

who sponsored this program, solid -ground -books .com, the description, in the description of your book,

it says, this book was never intended to be a book, but the very people the author wrote about wanted

him to publish it.

Can you explain that?

Yes, I just mentioned the Brethren there, and even since I published

Brethrenism, and entering into,

they have identified in the

Brethren movement, the things that I'm writing about, this myopic, separatistic mentality.

And so I'm discovering now, after publishing it, that there's a brawny

in fundamentalism in the movement that we know, but in the

Brethren, when I wrote the

articles, I was

many of my own in Ireland.

That's why I called it the Confessions of a Fundamentalist.

I was looking at a review of the book online, and an

individual was complaining that this was just, wasn't really a book, there was no theme

in the book.

Well, I titled it the Confessions of a Fundamentalist because I'm dealing with specific items that I'm

dealing with in the book, and it was

resonating with my generation and the younger

generation.

You know, I mentioned back in the 1980s, people

remember the travesty

of MacArthur's position, and I remember in the

late 80s, the belligerence and

the stand against John MacArthur.

And I mentioned it in the book.

I believe he was teaching fundamentalists

the whole idea

of the death of Christ.

Yeah, but didn't it make it very superstitious in regard to the physical

blood of Christ?

Yeah, not all fundamentalists would have followed rigidly what

they got.

He was basically saying that the shed blood of Christ

was the prophesied way that God was going to atone sin, and the

death of Christ and his receiving the wrath of the Father on Calvary were the important things.

It was not that the blood had some kind of magical property.

Isn't that what he was basically saying, rightly saying?

Right, that's correct.

And I've heard preachers, myself heard preachers saying that the blood of Jesus cleanses us the

same way as bleach cleans a toilet.

In my mind, that's unfortunate.

John MacArthur was teaching that the death of Christ

necessitated bloodshedding.

And the blood, the references to the blood, which is the

death of Christ, is a metonym for his bloody death.

It's not the blood of Christ that is the

bloodshedding of Christ, and it's that nuance that's so hard.

In fact, that person who came up with the analogy of the bleach and the toilet being an

allegory for the blood of Christ cleansing us, and it's the same thing, that person doesn't understand sin.

He doesn't understand the depravity, the depths of evil that are involved in men's sin.

Because if you want to use a proper analogy, it would not only be that the toilet was cleaned with Clorox, it would have been that

the house was razed to the ground and a brand new mansion was

erected with brand new plumbing.

Right, yeah.

I mean, it wasn't just cleaning like a stain off of the...

I mean, that's a really poor analogy that he was giving.

Well, it is a poor analogy, but the Bible...

We have CJ in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, who says you were

talking about the fundamentalists being guilty of preaching

myopic separation.

Could you please differentiate between that and the separation that we as Christians

should all be involved in?

Obviously, I am hoping that you do not believe that we have ecumenical

relationships with Roman Catholics and those who are liberals on issues including

homosexuality and abortion.

Can you please be more specific about what you mean by myopic separation?

Well,

I think you're

talking

about

taking the

fundamentalists,

the fundamentalism in America alone, men who separated from other men because of

the

fundamentalist

movement.

Yeah, I mean, some of the separation that I have experienced in

regard to having it explained to me by my fundamentalist Baptist

friends is so much involved in

micromanaging, it becomes pharisaic and it becomes arrogant and self -righteous.

It becomes ridiculous to a point where I don't fellowship with that church

because in their library they have books by R .C. Sproul

and R .C. Sproul has made very favorable comments about Thomas Aquinas

and that kind of a thing.

That's where you're entering into the realm of insanity at some point, aren't you?

That's correct.

I don't want to brush them all with the same, all fundamentalism,

so I like to refer to those who,

because you have men trolling the internet

at publishing houses to see whether they're using different versions, to see what

maps they use in their Bibles, and calling for separation,

the minutiae, and to me that

is, that I would call fundamentalism.

Yeah, I have a friend who is a fundamentalist Baptist pastor who actually

for years in my dialogue with him was saying some very refreshing and

encouraging things about we have to get back to the roots of why the fundamentalist movement

was required and we have to get away from legalism and

slandering our brethren by exaggerating their flaws and things like that.

Right.

And he was going on and on but then he refused to attend a conference that I was attending

because somebody that I know and love and respect, in fact I believe he's one of the most powerful preachers in the world,

he said I'm not going there because that man is preaching there and he has preached in churches

where they accept rap music.

So it's not even that the man that was preaching accepted rap music, it's that he's preached

in places that have accepted rap music.

And I told him, wouldn't you preach in a Jehovah's Witness Kingdom hall if you were invited?

I mean, if you were given free reign to proclaim the gospel to those people, wouldn't you go?

I mean, so I think that's where you're getting, I think it's tragically sad and self -righteous, I

can't help but use that term.

Yes, you know, I mentioned earlier the fundamentalist movement in

British Columbia, which was the separation

of America.

And that model that spurred

on it, it

did not throw the baby out of the

bag in America.

And I think about the

initial separation, I use that term

in my book, these men were known as

moderate fundamentalists and, you know,

they took their stand, they obviously separated, some of them

Urbain and the

moderate.

In fact, didn't

he also

rebuke

fairly

sternly.

J

.I.

Packer and John Stott for their ecumenism?

There was,

as I

mentioned

this in the book, Lloyd -Jones

at that stage wanted...

Yes, Michael Haken is one of my favorite guests here on Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

He's a really brilliant man and a very humble and precious brother in Christ.

I'm going to read a question to you again and I'm going to go to a break because it's fairly lengthy and

have you answer the question when we return from the break.

I'm also going to email it to you again so you have it right in front of you.

Oh, and by the way, C .J. and Lindenhurst Long Island, you have won the final copy of Confessions of a

Fundamentalist by Aaron Dunlop, compliments of Tentmaker Publishing

and also compliments of the Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs

.com.

So thank you very much for the question.

We have Murray in Kinross, Scotland, who says, To confirm what Aaron

Dunlop has just said concerning Ian Paisley, I heard the big man give a lecture on

Augustus Toplady, during which he declared, I'm a five -point Calvinist and all my five points are

sharp.

He then proceeded to promote the Gospel fully and unapologetically.

I was interested in the comments regarding the Free Presbyterian Church and Arminianism, Bob Jones

University and Hyper -Calvinism.

Do you think that Ian Paisley et al would have been conscious that Arminian associations and

a full and passionate preaching of the Gospel would do no harm at all in a country like

Northern Ireland with a large open brethren movement?

It would surely make the Free Presbyterian Church a lot more welcoming place than some of the very

narrow Gospel halls in Northern Ireland with their rules and regulations.

And that was Murray in Kinross, Scotland.

And I will have you respond to Murray when we return from the break, Aaron.

And if anybody else would like to join us on the air with a question of your own before we run out of time, and we are running out of

time fairly rapidly, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

And you may remain anonymous if it makes you feel more comfortable.

Hi, I'm Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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Well, we are back and we are going to conclude our conversation over the

next 25 minutes or so with Aaron Dunlop, a native of Northern Ireland, graduate of Geneva Reform

Seminary in Greenville, South Carolina.

And he is the author of a book we are discussing today, Confessions of a Fundamentalist.

And if you'd like to join us, our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

Well, before the break, as you know, Aaron, we had a

listener in Kinross, Scotland.

And that was Murray in Kinross, Scotland.

And he says, to confirm what Aaron Dunlop has just said concerning Ian Paisley, I heard the big man

give a lecture on Augustus Toplady, during which he declared, I'm a five -point Calvinist and all my

five points are sharp.

He then proceeded to promote the gospel fully and unapologetically.

I was interested in the comments regarding the Free Presbyterian Church and Arminianism slash

Bob Jones University and hyper -Calvinism.

Do you think that Paisley et al would have been conscious that Arminian associations in a full and

passionate preaching of the gospel would do no harm at all in a country, Northern

Ireland, with a large open brethren movement?

It would surely make the Free Presbyterian Church a more welcoming place than some of the very narrow gospel

holes in Northern Ireland, with their rules and regulations.

Can you comment on Murray in Kinross, Scotland's comments and questions?

Well, I hope I'm a five

-point Calvinist and all my five points are unapologetic.

Association

with

Bob

Jones

and

friends

in

it.

Well, thank you.

Go ahead.

I'm sorry.

Are you there, brother?

Yes, sorry.

I interrupted you.

Go ahead.

I'm just saying I hope that answers Murray's question.

Okay.

Well, thank you, Murray, in Kinross, Scotland.

And keep listening to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and keep providing us with excellent questions for our guests.

Keep spreading the word about the program in Scotland and beyond.

We have Seth in Greensboro, North Carolina, who says,.

Most fundamental churches here in the South use the King James Version translation,

even though some are not KJV only.

Why do you suppose so many refuse to use modern translations such as the NASB or

ESV, etc.?

Do you believe it's traditional reasons, legalistic reasons, or perhaps other reasons?

And I'm sure you wouldn't disagree with me, Aaron.

It could be all of those reasons that he gave.

Yeah, I think you probably find when you analyze that all of the above

fundamentalists, as I said before, interested in maintaining a

particular.

And that's another fascinating study, especially in the South, in the Bible Belt.

Or an interesting book that you might want to read is Russell Moore's book Onward,

Engaging the Culture Without Losing the Gospel.

And in that book, he says the Bible Belt is tickering.

And I say, let it fall.

And it's a very, it's an extremely interesting

idea that he's presenting here.

And I think it's a novel idea to many Americans.

If the Bible Belt falls, the loss of the Bible Belt may be bad news for America, but it can be good news

for the church.

I think fundamentalism has tried for too long to maintain and

they're losing the church, the substance and depth of

the church.

And that would be my contention,

to maintain a culture, a Christian culture.

And, you know, I

think that you could link that in with its desire to use the, many of them

believe, obviously, that the King James is the best translation.

The KJV only, not only maintain that the King James is the best translation, they

reject all other translations.

That I have an issue.

Yes, in fact, a free Presbyterian church pastor once said to me

that although he exclusively uses the King James version, he told

me that he believed it was heresy to declare one of the other

modern, one of the modern respected translations as not being the

word of God.

He actually said that that would be heresy, which many King James only advocates would very vociferously

claim.

That's true.

I agree with, I agree with some of that.

So I think it comes down to personal.

And of course, some of it is, it seems, it seems like really

superstition, not very far off from the right wing of the

traditionalist Catholics that insist on Latin in their masses.

You have these people from New York and the south of

the United States insisting upon Old English in their Bible.

It makes really no sense.

Obviously, somebody, I don't agree with the argument of TR only or Textus Receptus

only, but they would have more of an argument that was respectable than a King James only.

Especially when you consider there were no Baptists on the translation committee of the King James Bible,

and they were Baptists actually being executed in England in 1611.

So it makes no sense that Baptists would be King James only to me at all.

Right.

Yeah, I

haven't heard the link

between one guy and another.

Amen.

Look at this.

I was just going to say that it seems that a lot of fundamentalists, they only read what

other fundamentalists say in opposition to things like reformed theology and so on.

They don't really read the reformers or the Puritans themselves.

They are, and of course, I don't mean the broad brush, but I'm saying those that are very often the most vociferous in their

hatred for the reformed faith and other things outside of their circles.

They don't even read the people that they are attacking and very often slandering,

because they're only reading those that also attack those people.

And I think that's why the fundamentalist movement, if the movement is still alive, it's on palliative care.

But the reason why the movement has been deteriorating in the

past 40 years, especially the past 10 years, I think there's an increase.

And that is because many young people now are on the internet.

They discover that John MacArthur has been preaching the gospel for 40 years, when many of the fundamentalists were denying that

and they were listening to him.

And so the fact that they have gotten it wrong on men like John MacArthur, who have been

preaching the gospel, that has undermined the integrity of many

fundamentalists.

And if they've gotten it wrong on this, well, what else have they gotten it wrong on?

And so a lot of young men are going to fundamentalist colleges, already conversant with

Reformed theology, because they're listening to it.

The only men who are writing are Reformed.

All these men, Al Mohler, they're listening to these guys.

And they're going into fundamentalist colleges, already conversant with Reformed theology.

And so I think...

In fact, one of the things that I'm sure you agree that the worst element

of fundamentalism is far too often throwing the baby out with the

bathwater.

They...

Like, for instance, some of those men that you listed, who are very popular amongst Reformed Christians, like Al Mohler

and John Piper and some others.

I've had Dr. Mohler on this program.

I have not yet had John Piper on the program.

But they say things at times that I disagree with.

And a typical knee -jerk reaction of a fundamentalist will be, well, I don't want anything to do with him because

he said that.

He won't listen to any of the other brilliant things that the man said, or insightful

biblical things that the man said.

And he will not only not read anything else by that person, but he won't even associate with anybody who

likes that person.

You know, it's that kind of a thing that really becomes, you know, like I was saying before, it borders on

insanity, that you cannot learn greatly from someone even if you disagree with them.

That's right.

And, you know, I think we have to learn to disagree respectfully and be able

to, like eating fish, eat the meat and leave the bones.

You know, you disagree with somebody, well, we have to identify whether it's a fundamental upon

which we disagree or a secondary issue.

That, I think...

Is fundamentalism chasing its own tail?

You know, and part of this whole study, I've discovered when I've read fundamentalist writers,

they've been complaining for 40 years about the war psychology.

There's been, in fact, the World Congress of Christian Fundamentalists was developed in 1956 with Paisley and

Bob Jones, specifically to counter the problem of schism

and division among fundamentalists.

And so for 40 years, and this shocked me and discouraged me, actually, when I discovered, for 40

years, the fundamentalist movement had been dealing with the issues that I struggled with and that my generation and the next

generation are now struggling with.

And it disappointed me that they've never been able to deal with the issues.

They've never been able to address the issues correctly because I think they've had the ball and chain of

a war psychology that they're not going to let go of.

And that's going to drag it down and kill

it.

I think it has pretty much.

What do you mean by...

In that respect...

Go ahead, you can continue.

Sorry, in that respect, I believe it is chasing...

Who are the fundamentalist, silent, moderate majority, in your opinion?

They're men in the movement, friends of mine,

what I'm writing about.

But for the sake of the movement, they are unwilling to...

You know, that means something right there.

There's something very significant about that because what I have noticed in my associations and friendships with

fundamentalists, and I can tell you that I think that there is something similar, perhaps even going

on with reformed Christians in certain circles, is that there is

a fear amongst ministers not to be fundamentalist enough

or reformed enough.

And especially with the fundamentalists, there is an up -one -manship, if you know what I'm saying,

where there is almost a contest on who can hate rock music more and

who could be more old -fashioned than the other church.

And there's a fear of being accused of liberalism or moderate

thinking by other fundamentalists.

And I write that there seems to be men plagued with fear.

Well, yeah, it's the same on the other side.

You go to the reformed movement, and this individual comes out of Arminianism, and

he becomes...

A caged -stage Calvinist, yeah.

That's right.

We have to

cage him for the

first 10 years of the

reformed movement

like that, and it's not checked.

What do you mean by fundamentalism and the new conservative evangelicalism identity?

Well, I believe you mentioned it before, but perhaps you could articulate more on that.

Yeah, that's just this

idea that in broad

evangelicalism, there's an

orthodoxy,

finding men who are

some dyes.

Well, if you could, wrap up what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners before

they leave this broadcast today.

That idea, actually, of a unified church and to get away from...

Well, we have time for one more question from a listener.

We have BB in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, who says, I cannot understand the

love that fundamentalists have for Charles Finney.

Fundamentalists typically despise Roman Catholic religion with a passion, and yet they

embrace Finney as a hero, and he undoubtedly was more Pelagian than even

the most ardent Roman Catholic.

If you could respond to that.

Well, yeah, Finney obviously popularized revivalism, which fundamentalism

carried on.

But they did not see it, obviously, they were Arminian.

But they did not, again, I think they lost touch with the theology and were more interested

in the practice of evangelizing.

That's what they would identify with Finney, the practice of

evangelizing.

Yeah, they obviously haven't really read Finney, even though they act as if he's a hero, because

Finney clearly believed in a works righteousness salvation.

And many of them, you know, many of... I think it was more Billy Graham, by the way.

I would not so much...

And that's ironic, too, because Billy Graham is an

extremist in the ecumenical movement and so on.

Right.

Perhaps it was when Billy Graham was younger and known as a firebrand.

In fact, he was known in his initial stages as a preacher, as a

fundamentalist.

Right.

And he made a conscious decision to side with the liberals and others because he knew that they would

be larger crowds and so on.

That's what I've heard when I read...

Went to Bob Jones University.

And for your listeners, do a study on key evangelicals in North America

who got their grounding, their heritage in fundamentalism.

It's a fascinating study.

We owe fundamentalism a great debt.

But I'm dealing with the issues that developed in the movement.

But you do a study, key men in the evangelical church in North America.

Well, don't forget that our guest's website is thinkgospel .com, thinkgospel

.com.

If you live in the United States and you want to purchase a copy of Confessions of a Fundamentalist, go to solid

-ground -books .com, solid -ground -books .com.

You can also go to Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service's website, cvbbs .com, cv for Cumberland

Valley, bbs for BibleBookService .com.

If you live in the UK, go to tentmaker .org .uk,

tentmaker .org .uk, and you can purchase the book there more affordably in the UK.

I want to thank everybody for listening today.

I want to thank you, Aaron Dunlop, for being my guest.

I want you all to have a safe, blessed, and wonderful weekend, especially on the Lord's Day.

I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a

sinner.