Debate Stuff, Muhammed Under Fire, David Allen's New Book

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00:29

Well greetings welcome to the dividing line it is I think it's Tuesday hard to say anymore but It's all meld together after you're in your seventh decade somewhere anyway

00:43

Good news today. I can't since we haven't signed anything or anything like that yet, but looks like There will be a debate in,

00:54

Tullahoma in about five weeks from now which means that my

01:03

My time home just became very very busy Much busier than I expected it to be but that's good

01:10

And I'm gonna tell you what I think what I'm gonna do Now look

01:18

I Don't know how many years ago it was I Sat down and I put a lot of effort into listing out and counting everything that I would honestly

01:34

Include as a formal debate that I've done since August of 1990 And since then

01:41

I've just added to that and I don't know where that list is. I probably couldn't reproduce it but I just keep adding to it and that's how

01:52

You know right now The number that I have is I'm at 198

02:00

But I Think I've been inconsistent and what

02:06

I mean by that is I Purposefully decided not to include

02:14

One particular debate because my opponent Wasn't well, let's just say my opponent will always be in the

02:34

Stuff that we use as for the radio free Geneva stuff Then don't force me to make you defend

02:46

I I Stop and drop my head

02:54

Every single time I I listen to that. So I I have not yes

03:00

There's a picture of me doing this number in 2016 so I have not included the

03:06

Steve Tassi debate in my running total But look

03:11

Steve Tassi was not the worst guy I debated Now the rock med I think is probably the worst guy

03:18

I've ever debated and I've I included him And I think I debated him twice

03:24

There have there have been some others and And so I've just gone, you know

03:33

There were you know, a couple hundred people there that night. We had to turn people away a lot of people watched it

03:41

I'm being inconsistent not to include that in the debate list

03:48

So I've decided I'm gonna go back and we'll we'll pop that into the I don't know

03:54

It may be the the list on the website isn't the one that I've used And there's stuff on that list that I don't include in mine

04:04

There's some radio programs and stuff that weren't necessarily moderated public debates so We'll probably go back if it's not listed there.

04:13

It might be but if it's not we'll throw it on there But if that puts me at 199 then the next formal moderated public debate would be the big two zero zero

04:26

Not that Anybody's gonna care about that, you know within the next two months month and a half

04:36

I will pass 175 ,000 miles ridden on bike and I have one friend just one friend who doesn't

04:47

I even live in Arizona? That cares at all rich doesn't care Rich could care less

04:55

My family could care less. They stopped carrying at 20 ,000 miles. Okay, that was 155 ,000 miles when

05:01

I tell people I just passed 120 ,000 miles. Oh, that's great dad You know, so my kids don't care.

05:06

My wife does care. My grandkids don't care. My son -in -law doesn't care. Nobody at church cares Did I say rich didn't care yeah rich doesn't care nobody cares except this one friend in st.

05:19

Charles, he's the only person That is actually keeping track of How close

05:25

I'm getting I'm less I'm 380 some -odd miles or something like that away from 175 ,000

05:33

So, um, no one's really gonna care When when

05:39

I hit 200 debates either it's just just a number and If I'm riding along that day and I see the number go by I'll just keep pedaling

05:53

It's just How it works and and if another debate comes up, then you do your 201st, you know, it is so, uh

06:04

We have a dialogue We have a dialogue in Nashville This trip coming up.

06:15

So it's all of September. I'm gonna be gone all of September on the road and And But the fellow that I'm gonna be dialoguing with didn't want to call it a debate so since there's no

06:28

Well, there will be a moderator Anyway, it won't it won't count because it doesn't have cross -examination

06:38

Which as I recall the debate did sort of um, anyway

06:45

So the dialogue that will require me to be reading an entire book between now and then and praying for that and then it looks like we're gonna have a

06:55

I would call it a big debate not just because it's number 200, but When I look at debates,

07:01

I'm not concerned about how big the audience is. I'm concerned how him how valuable

07:09

Once I'm in a pine box I'm stuck in the ground someplace.

07:15

How valuable will this particular debate be? To the next generation of people who might

07:24

Be watching these things and utilizing them for assistance and help. This one will be important.

07:29

It's a bun one will definitely be it's very very important Thankfully a biblical exegetical topic related the deity of Christ So got word that that's gonna go ahead and happen and I'm excited about that That's gonna be a huge trip huge trip.

07:51

I mean the number of times I'm gonna be speaking the Range of topics.

07:57

I'm gonna be addressing a number of different states churches We're catching a we're catching

08:03

For a long trip like this. We're catching a number of the road trip at ailment org churches

08:10

If you're not familiar with that we have an email address road trip at ailment org and If you send in your church contact information and stuff like that you get put on a map and Sometimes I can pop over to a church it's nearby where I'm gonna be traveling and It's informal in the sense that I'll probably be exhausted having driving all day

08:38

And it probably on a Tuesday night or something like that both of these are on Monday nights actually

08:45

But that's how we get to visit with folks and see folks And in the churches that we otherwise wouldn't have the opportunity of doing so doing a couple of those on this this trip

08:56

It's harder to do those when you're doing a long trip because your days tend to be longer and you have less time you still want to commit to something if you're

09:05

You've got a 50 % chance you're not even make it type of situation so it's gonna be a big trip

09:11

We need your help to make it happen Those the the cost of oil is staying up there there really hasn't been a crash in in global oil markets or anything like that and So Help us to get all the way back to Pennsylvania the my far point will be in Carlisle, Pennsylvania with Chris Arnzen and Then heading back from there and That as far as I know the only other trip

09:45

I have yeah The only other trip I have the rest of the year is our annual trek to st.

09:50

Charles I'm coming to Grace Church Van Lee and and these and BAM well, sort of the family all the folks there at the church 25 solid years and This will probably be the last

10:07

First of December trip when 25 years is long enough They need to find someone younger

10:15

Need to find a different time to have there. I would like to have I'd like to be home Between Thanksgiving and Christmas for once I haven't for a quarter of a century and Well, there was one exception in there

10:30

What I was but that was for health reasons, but this we are our big last hurrah

10:37

Doesn't mean I won't be going by the church in the future But it'll probably be part of you know planning that along with rest of a trip or something like that a

10:49

Couple years down the road But that'll be it for the year, but we're already planning

10:55

We've got some real Interesting possibilities in February man. I hope it's not as cold as it was last

11:01

February We'd have to drive through it anyways this time but looking at some some cool stuff in February maybe into the early part of March with possibility of some dialogues and trying to trying to trying to trying to find a proper person to have a meaningful fully recorded

11:28

Debate on the perpetual virginity of Mary most of the people have debate on that Either haven't been very well known or are considered apostates or heretics today

11:41

It happens and And boy, it's a lot of stuff about that on the web right now and I've said for years the more we're pushed into the same cultural space the more of these conversations take place and you're not gonna get you know, like I said only only

12:02

Bob's and Jenna's has ever been willing to debate the bodily assumption and Even then it's they don't really debate the bodily assumption they debate

12:14

But it's so it's sort of like when I debated Bassam Zawadi in London on whether No, no, no, no, no, no it was

12:27

Saturday it was yeah, Sammy's athlete Well same church is why

12:34

I confused and I think they were one year apart There in Wandsworth Anyway, we debated

12:44

We were gonna debate the crucifixion and it ended up being a debate on the resurrection Rather than the crucifixion

12:51

So they attacked the resurrection rather than defending the history of the crucifixion because as you know in Islam They deny the

12:59

Jesus Christ was crucified according to surah 4 1 7 in the

13:04

Quran so it's Very much along the same same lines type of a sort of shift the shift the burden of proof type thing and So that's they do.

13:18

That's what Roman Catholics do with bodily assumption is Well, we just have the authority to define it We're not gonna try to actually defend it as historical belief because the church says that it is therefore it is well, we won't defend it historic and And same with same

13:33

I'm sitting here thinking Have we done a debate on the

13:39

Immaculate Conception? Well, yeah, it's true.

13:45

We did we did all four topics with Jerry, but that was man in one night What were we thinking Jerry and I must have been pretty young That was a long night

13:56

But the one with Christopher Ferraro was that on the Immaculate Conception of the perpetual virginity

14:03

You might want to look that up. That'd be interesting to know But Yeah, it's it's hard to find and that's why

14:10

I As often as Bob has I thought misbehaved in a debate.

14:16

He's other times been just great Or is that one debate we did where we had to self moderate?

14:22

He worked with me on that and I appreciated that I like Bob said yes, personally

14:27

He's a he's a he's a nice guy and he's been hey He's been willing to take the lumps for taking the views that he has so got to give him got to give him credit on that But say yeah,

14:38

I'm not sure if we've done the Immaculate Conception. That would be that would be something that would be Worthwhile, but again, it all it always comes down to well, you know, we have the authority to tell you these things

14:51

Before I jump into the main topic But anyway, so by the way

14:58

Both of those conferences the one in Nashville Franklin We have a link at a omen org there is a thing to sign up at and They need you to sign up for that so they know who's coming and stuff like that make proper arrangements

15:19

We do have I think four speakers coming in and things like that It should be you know, if Jason Lyle's there

15:25

Eli Ayala. I mean, come on I'd come to that. I Learn a lot from Jason and Eli and Jason tells me at the fourth speaker whose name

15:36

I don't have this in front of me is a friend of his So if he's a friend of Jason Lyle's and that that means great that he's very very intelligent

15:45

It was the Immaculate Conception. Okay, so we did do one on the Immaculate Conception and Unfortunately, my opponent a

15:53

Roman Catholic attorney Decided to use fake forge Citations from Augustine and stuff.

16:00

So and as I read if I recall correctly, I don't think that was video Yeah, there was something wrong with it.

16:11

Yeah. Yeah, I remember there was some Some issue and well that first debate with Jerry was recorded off sound house sound to it's terrible

16:21

Yeah, well it was a long time ago we've we've learned since then how to make sure you've got something you can actually listen to So, yeah, lots of cool stuff coming up and then like I said in February Dallas and then right now the plan is to go from Dallas to Jacksonville, Florida To the your

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Calvinist Church we're gonna we're gonna have a Have something something to do with denominations.

16:53

I'm sure we'll be involved when when that guy's involved the king of the

17:01

Amillennialists Which I which I have to wonder is that sort of like a Monty Python thing?

17:07

You know did did some hand come up from the water and throw him, you know Anyway, um, it should be it should be a lot of fun to to do all that kind of fun stuff

17:20

What a Harbor, yeah, it will be a Harbor Freight debate with Keith Foskey on something Probably something about bow ties or anything like that.

17:29

I'm not sure but Anyway before we get to the main topic of Some very

17:40

You know people have been saying well Is this all you're gonna say about David Allen's new book and stuff like that and it's like no as I said

17:49

When I first saw it while traveling I'm not even sure that I want to invest time in this

17:57

Self -published book that is just all over the map But we will be spending some time on it before we get to that though Between 2006 and 2010 so about four years

18:14

If you go back and look at the dividing line you will see Program after program after program on the subject of Islam and It is not that I have lost interest in Islam or something like that but through 2019

18:34

I was traveling regularly to London to Australia and especially to South Africa and South Africa is the home of Ahmed D dot the most listened to to this day.

18:51

He died 20 years ago In fact, I should look up the date of his death

18:58

That would be something algo would not have memorized but could probably track it down real fast

19:03

He died in 2005 and I started studying Islam and really doing work in that area in 2006 but South Africa has been deeply impacted by The teachings

19:24

Honestly the showmanship Yeah, I said 2005 so August 8th.

19:33

Okay. All right. So yeah just about there. I I thought it was sometime during the summer That he had died

19:40

I knew it was 2005 and So South African Muslim experience shall we say has been deeply

19:55

Marked by Akhmed D dot and Many of the Muslims with whom you will dialogue if they come from a majority

20:03

Muslim country Will use the arguments of Akhmed D dot that doesn't mean they're scholarly because they're not

20:10

D dot assiduously avoided And Debating people that could take him out.

20:18

He only made he only made that mistake one time There's more toward the end of his career, too

20:24

But he took on Joshua Dowell and Joshua Dowell took him out Really did he defeated you just listen to it.

20:31

It's very clear His arguments are not scholarly. But as I said, he was a showman, but it just a tremendous speaker and So you go to South Africa and you do debates and man

20:46

I think there were times we did two sometimes three debates in a single trip. So we were dealing with Islam a lot during that time frame and So it's not that I've lost interest in all of that But with kovat and The rise of techno tyranny

21:09

And the fact that honestly with what I'm seeing coming out of the UK, I I Know some of my friends went over there.

21:18

Tony Costa was over there The gripper was over there And I'm sure they were saying strong things, you know about Islam, but There is no free speech in the

21:33

United Kingdom there really isn't and I Well, there would be for Muslims that's the that's the weird part of it is you you could if As a

21:46

Muslim you can say whatever you want in the United Kingdom if you're a Christian respond in a Christian allegedly

21:52

Christian nation You could end up in the who's cow? anyway, so Back then

22:02

I Certainly was aware of certain trends and again,

22:10

I almost hesitate to mention this in passing because it would take so much time to even

22:18

Cover all the foundational issues, but if you go to a mosque today

22:25

So, for example if you go online and you Watch the 2013 debate that I did with Shabir Ali at the

22:31

Abu Bakr Siddiq mosque in Erasmus, South Africa you will see that I am standing at a certain point in The mosque itself the the imam had led the prayers there before we set up the tables and things like that and So I'm standing in front of what's called the

22:54

Qibla and a Qibla in a mosque points only one direction the

23:02

Qibla points to the Grand Mosque really literally to the Blackstone in the

23:07

Grand Mosque in Mecca and That's how you know now obviously today with Smartphones and stuff like that.

23:18

There are all sorts of apps that you can buy well buy Islamic apps that will tell you exactly which direction

23:26

Mecca is from where you are and that kind of that's fairly new technology relatively speaking but I I Was aware of the fact that there have been studies that have demonstrated that some of the oldest found mosques the

23:42

Qibla's are not pointing at Mecca they're pointing at Jerusalem and There is no Qibla in the

23:48

Dome of the Rock Well, what does that tell you? Well, it tells you that there was development taking place in Islamic belief and Things like that, which is not shocking or surprising

24:05

Though it may be shocking and surprising to Muslims just as When I Talk about the the fact that the deity of Christ is plainly taught in Scripture, but the terminology we use to express it developed over time because Gospel goes out in the world and encounters different Philosophies and languages and things like that and so you have to answer those questions

24:31

And so you develop language to answer those types of things and there is doctrinal development in that sense

24:37

Not in the sense you're coming up with something new Not like saying well model theism is doctrinal development.

24:43

No, it's not That's plainly taught in Scripture but what that means

24:52

And how you apply it in answer to other religions and things like that that could be an example of Doctrinal development over time

25:02

So same thing happens with it within Islam and you know, certainly there are Muslims in Western world to go

25:09

Yeah, yeah that happened, but the vast majority of Muslims are like, yeah, I don't think so And there are a lot of Christians that likewise when you talk about that.

25:17

Oh, no We've always believed exactly the way I've understood it the way I would say it and so like that Not really

25:25

So So I was aware of the fact that there were there were

25:33

Mohammedan mythicists People who were literally saying that Muhammad did not exist that there was no

25:42

Historical person named Muhammad. Now, of course, there are Jesus mythicists. They're a rather small group

25:48

Even Bart Ehrman has written a book against the Jesus mythicists. He believed Jesus existed and You can demonstrate that from historical sources, but There were some

26:03

Muhammad mythicists and and remember if you're not familiar with all this stuff Muhammad dies by Tradition Islamic tradition in 632 and so you're talking over half a millennium after Jesus so Islam Historically now not from their perspective they would dispute this but historically is a much younger faith

26:30

So It's Historical pedigree should be easier to establish because a 600 years 600 years the farther you go back the less you have of records

26:43

Written documents can't survive as long, you know things like the ravages of war and time and flood and pestilence

26:51

Earthquake seriously earthquakes wiped out all sorts Important Archaeological sites and things anyway, so Islam is much younger by 600 years and So That is one of the differences that a lot of people don't think about when we talk about this kind of stuff

27:15

Anyway, so I knew that there were those who were literally making the argument. There never was a Muhammad That what we have today

27:25

Evolved over time as a result of a lot of redaction Ibn Malik stuff that happening around the you know, the beginning of the 8th century

27:36

You have redaction of the Quran and you don't have a whole lot of early

27:44

Islamic Manuscripts and things like that To you know, the sa 'ana manuscripts have all sorts of variants and differences in them and they're not complete and So there was a lot of there's a lot of that kind of I was very very interesting to me

28:02

One of the main areas of my study and initially I really was thinking about pursuing

28:08

Graduate study in the textual history of the Quran. I still have right down there

28:16

To museum quality Reproductions of some of the earliest

28:23

Quranic manuscripts that we possess one in the British Museum the other one in Paris and Yes, they're right down there under Right there

28:35

Gotta do it all backwards. Yeah, like right right there in there They're sitting on top of Codex Sinaiticus not the original but those two right there and that's the 1550s

28:45

Um, so Anyway, I was aware of all that kind of stuff and All the past number of years

28:58

I've Seen some stuff coming out From Fander films and A good man a

29:11

Very dedicated man Jay Smith Dr. J. Smith whom

29:17

I have fellowshiped with and met with There was a group of us back in the day called scholars with a dream and That's where I got

29:34

Funding to do my initial Arabic studies and things like that Met a lot of these guys that have published since then

29:43

Some aren't even with us anymore actually But I had seen videos coming out from Jay and Fander films and I found them fascinating I found them very interesting and What's really interesting is

30:07

I I just found out so I'm a little bit behind the eight ball on this I don't really have contact with these guys anymore if I Wanted to I'm sure that it would speak with me, but I think they figure

30:19

I've just gone my own my own way and Though I was one of the only

30:27

Solidly reformed people in the group. So that may have something to do with it. Anyway, I Was watching the presentation that Jay made recently in Albuquerque And What and I do not know what the relationship between Veritas Theological Seminary in Albuquerque is and The one founded by Norman Geisler.

30:52

Did it move to Albuquerque? I don't know he described it as Calvary Chapel's theological seminary and that he

31:02

Jay Smith is now working with it and offering a degree in In Islamic apologetics and polemics which he interestingly enough he made a distinction between apologetics and polemics

31:14

I wouldn't necessarily make myself But but he did and In essence

31:25

What he is presenting now is a full -on attack on the historical existence of Muhammad as an individual and it's based on differentiating between muhammad and Muhammad and The development of vowel pointing in Arabic and I have to admit

31:50

I I lost a little bit of this there This wasn't meant to be a super scholarly presentation.

31:56

So There were a couple times when Jay said things like like he was

32:01

Displaying like what I would have in these manuscripts here that don't have the vowel pointing there before it developed and He was saying to an

32:11

Arabic reader in the audience. You can't read that can you nobody can because there aren't any vowels and I'm like but Hebrew was written and Read and used for centuries and centuries and centuries

32:26

No, the Dead Sea Scrolls have don't have Vowel pointing either all that means is that it was much more contextually interpreted

32:39

But that doesn't mean you couldn't read it and that didn't mean it didn't continue to can convey a

32:47

Objective message that didn't really catch didn't Understand that and I'd have to ask so what's fascinating is

32:56

Pretty much saying Muhammad did not there was no historical man named Muhammad. There were people named

33:02

Mahmoud which simply means highly praised one and his theory is

33:08

Initially, that was just simply a title of a highly praised person. It wasn't a specific

33:14

Historical individual and then he started getting into for example the hadith and I've spent time on this program

33:22

Narrating hadith to you Sometimes reading it sometimes just memory. I told you that years and years ago.

33:29

I listened to all of Sahih al -Bukhari and Sahih Muslim while riding my bike and The reason much of that sticks is the same story would be told over and over and over again, so it's repetition and And What was fascinating was part of his presentation it seemed to me

33:55

Was saying that what's in the hadith actually doesn't go back any earlier and we knew there's a two to three hundred year gap

34:04

Between Muhammad's life and the initial gathering of these things, but he's arguing that in some instances it's it's a seven eight nine hundred year gap and That what we've been told about Bukhari and things like that just simply aren't true

34:21

Not that they didn't exist But we don't have any manuscripts that go back to them.

34:26

Well Again, I'm gonna have to ask some questions because Just because we don't have a manuscript from the 9th century.

34:38

Let's say let's say you're saying yes Bukhari 9th 10th century somewhere around there, but we don't have any manuscripts to go back there.

34:47

The the earliest manuscript we have are 13 1400 That doesn't mean that Bukhari didn't compile

34:55

That material earlier. It just means we don't have manuscripts to go back That far now again

35:01

Islam's younger You know, you're talking within the past thousand years At least with the

35:07

New Testament we have lots of New Testament manuscripts from a thousand AD onward

35:13

So it it is a little bit strange that we wouldn't have that kind of stuff But it certainly would not be a solid argument say

35:22

That this stuff was made up at that point in time Just simply that we don't have

35:28

Manuscripts that go through that period. We don't have manuscripts that go through what's called the dark period in the first You know 150 years in New Testament either but we don't have that for any work of antiquity at all

35:40

You don't expect to have that. So I was a little Little confused and what's interesting?

35:48

What's really really and this is all I wanted to say But now I'm not just not gonna do it. Um What was interesting is evidently he has been having an in -house debate

36:01

With Raymond Ibrahim now Raymond Ibrahim You may remember

36:07

I have mentioned him About all the Crusades stuff. He wrote a book in essence in defense of the

36:15

Crusades and he's a Coptic Christian and Him I I need to now that I've listened to J stuff

36:28

I need to go find Raymond Ibrahim stuff and Listen to that other side

36:35

Because all I have were quotes from J About what

36:40

Raymond Ibrahim said including one that said there's there's greater historical evidence of Muhammad's existence than for Jesus Interesting interesting that would raise a lot of methodological and historical questions but Personally, I think it's actually helpful that you would have this debate going on because that's gonna clarify a lot of stuff

37:10

When you don't have debate going on Bad assertions can just be repeated over and over again without ever being challenged and So I want to go back and find

37:23

Raymond Ibrahim's first onslaught shall we say against Against Jay Smith, and I think a lot of Some of the debates that Jay was talking about.

37:34

I think they are online You know, I I'm not gonna have time to do this between the next for the next trip

37:41

Obviously with the debate that I can be doing and things like that, but I want to I want to get into it

37:49

Because you know, we aren't anywhere near done with the This long it sort of seems like for a while that was all anybody could talk about with all the stuff going on in Iraq and Afghanistan and and 9 -11 and and now everybody's forgotten it

38:10

It just and I've I've lamented more than once the fact that I Can't get reformed

38:20

Christians To express a consistent love for and desire to be used by God to reach out to Muslims no matter how hard I try and It's not that there aren't some there.

38:33

There are some but man we are in a very small minority And in fact, it seems significantly more popular to just express detestation and hatred

38:43

Toward Muslims than than anything else and So the the first stop in Dallas by the way is gonna be on the subject of Islam in February Lord willing again, this isn't written in stone yet, we're

38:59

Trying to hammer out the details But Fascinating stuff and Those of you who around back then

39:10

I'm not sure if I'll go remembers any of it or if he was just snoring while I was covering all this stuff, but What you are?

39:19

dealing with When you deal with Islam is foundational to what you're dealing with when you talk to many other groups as well new test of reliability

39:30

Transmission of the text over time all sorts of stuff like that. So It does have value even if you don't think you're right you're ever going to talk to a

39:39

Muslim Back the matter the way things are going if you live in Michigan, you may be ruled by Muslims before long and That could be a real

39:51

Problem anyway So, uh, that was uh, that was fascinating that was that was great

40:03

Alright, so I had some people

40:11

As I said, I picked up David Allen's new self -published book Liberating Romans from reformed captivity one of the worst titles ever

40:22

No such thing as reformed captivity This isn't Sorry, it's it's not a serious work of scholarship

40:29

It has lots and lots of footnotes, but it is a sketch it is one of those books where somebody and we all know who somebody is

40:38

Massively multiplying Citations that actually don't have anything to do with what you're talking about. It's just it's for show

40:45

It's like how many footnotes can I get into this and and how many quotes can I give and how many?

40:50

I mean Ken Wilson is just taken as gospel truth in this book.

40:56

All right, you start off with the Two -part Romans stuff, which is just beyond silly

41:04

It's just absurd on its face. But then you get into Ken Wilson's stuff and Manichaeism and You know the elect passing gas all the stuff that goes with Manichaeism, um and Then like I said, you got this guy from Southeastern with some

41:26

Hexagon of heresy stuff and it's just like What on earth is this stuff and then?

41:33

Arrogant Cantor pops back up. I mean, I knew he was out there.

41:40

He's running around in chat rooms on Facebook demonstrating that after 20 years he still doesn't have a clue

41:49

What what is about what it is about Calvinism, he just knows he hates it.

41:55

He doesn't understand it. He's has no interest in those things and he's promoting this book I mean that that's

42:02

There's there's a recommendation for you when the Yeah, when when

42:09

Arrogant Cantor says this is a great book and of course he was attacking me So I wrote back to him and I said hey when you gonna apologize for a nice start down a little list of all the

42:19

Stuff we've documented about him. And of course, he's not gonna respond to that because he never has Not since January of 2010

42:27

When he was given the opportunity to come clean tell the truth he decided to double down and Norm Geisler defended him and Liberty defended him and all these people at least until the wheels fell off and so anyways so with all of that, um,

42:46

I Popped open the book and I was I was chasing some citations.

42:53

What I was doing was I was going. Okay. Look let's let's try to provide a

43:04

An example from this book because dealing with this book is similar to dealing with Chosen but free Remember the story

43:11

I told you about Chosen but free When I was first writing the

43:17

Potter's Freedom, this was 25 years ago I Wrote to dr.

43:24

Geisler and I said What's confusing to me is that there is no exegesis of John chapter 6 in Chosen but free

43:36

Could you explain what it is? He said well, of course, I've thoroughly exegeted it so I wrote back with every single reference

43:45

John chapter 6 in a book which is hard to do Because the scripture index in the first edition stunk.

43:52

It was two pages long and was nowhere near exhaustive And You read all the references and there was no exit.

44:02

He'd mentioned it over here He'd mentioned another thing over here something over here in different topics

44:08

Passing reference. There was no exegesis of John chapter 6 All he did was he said a note card back said if you publish

44:14

I'll respond that was last I ever heard from Norman Geisler directly And so The book the

44:25

Chosen but free. Hey at least You had chapters so you can sort of Somewhat figure that if something was gonna be addressed it's here

44:35

But what I've discovered with a lot of this stuff is a lot of these folks especially with provisionists now

44:41

That was not a term. Of course, of course norm came up with Moderate Calvinist and extreme

44:47

Calvinist all the rest is kind of silliness but It's just how scattered they are they

44:57

If you if you ask them, could you could you just exegete the text you will get

45:05

You'll get a weather report a little reference to Stonewall Jackson You know something about Bitcoin It's just Reminds me of these two ladies that were in our chat channel long long ago

45:23

Carla one of them and When I was said

45:29

I'd be going on a trip They'd start going through all the stuff that they were throwing in my suitcase for you know

45:35

Remember that remember that I mean, you know two rubber bands paper clip, you know half a

45:41

Twinkie Just you know some kitty treats which

45:47

I might actually use these days it's possible, um, but it was just Potpourri of stuff and That's what you get from these guys when you ask them, could you just Maybe tell us what the text says and so I was looking through and I'm like, what is it?

46:10

What does it say? about Romans 8 7 8

46:18

Because the title of the book is liberating Romans from reformed captivity. Well if you liberate

46:23

Romans from reformed captivity And Romans 8 7 or 8 is where you know, no one

46:31

Can submit to God's law not even capable of doing so cetera cetera There must be

46:39

You know an exegesis a discussion. I can't find anything. I Eventually had to just look for the word

46:46

Romans And Had to look at which in a book by this title

46:54

Was a lot of stuff. I didn't need to be looking at but but I couldn't find anything Because obviously my big interest is

47:03

Romans chapter 8 Because we have for years Provided a refutation of David Allen's interpretation.

47:11

We've gone into the text. We've demonstrated where he is misunderstood or misused scholarly commentary and We've pressed the point and he's never responded now.

47:23

I am convinced now. He's never even listened. I think I Think he's one of those folks just like Norm Geisler never read

47:30

Potter's Freedom because He would feel that that would be granting something to a young snot -nosed kid

47:41

That he didn't deserve and I don't think David Allen listens to any of the critiques.

47:46

It's it's an echo chamber He might hear a summary from somebody But I don't

47:54

I don't think he's listened to anything we've said I don't think he's read Anything we've written in response to him and you know, that's that's his choice, but I Think I know why that is but I'll let you figure that out for yourself

48:11

So I'm running through the whole book trying to find anything where I could go.

48:17

Okay, here's the exegesis offered of This text from Romans chapter 8, let me just just remind you

48:27

Because this would be under this should be under total depravity this should be right at the beginning if you're gonna free Romans liberate

48:32

Romans from reform tyranny reform captivity verse 6 for the mind sound the flesh is death

48:42

But the mind sound the spirit is life and peace because the mind son the flesh is an enmity toward God For it does not subject itself to law of God for it is not even able to do.

48:52

So Udagar do not I and Those who are in the flesh are not able to please

49:02

God so if You're in the flesh is saving faith is repentance and faith pleasing to God Of course it is so you can't be in the flesh to do that.

49:14

You have to be in the spirit It's verse 9. However, you are not in the flesh within the spirit if indeed the

49:21

Spirit of God dwells in you so you have terms of Inability Udagar do not

49:27

I in verse 7 and who do not I in verse 8

49:33

So these are fundamental statements those who are in the flesh are not able to please God so Is it not rather Logical to expect that a book that advertises itself

49:54

You know, I you know, there are times I can blame my publishers For things in my books

50:06

Subtitles and things like that When you're this when you're the publisher when you when it's self -published

50:12

You've got nobody to blame for yourself. So if it's Liberating Romans from reformed captivity and you don't even try

50:21

Oh Now I might have missed it maybe no references were given to it or something maybe

50:29

I'll run into it eventually but Because what

50:34

I eventually want to do is I want to walk through What pretends to be a

50:42

Discussion of Romans 8 28 and following it is scattered Disjointed, you know,

50:51

I've heard that. Dr. Allen's good preacher. He would fail himself if he ever preached a sermon that is so convoluted and so all over the planet as What he does on Romans chapter 8 and again does not respond to the vast majority what we said and I think as purposeful so That's what

51:20

I was doing. And so I followed a footnote someplace and then know something and I ran into a couple that I wanted to share with you and there's all sorts of other stuff.

51:31

So what you know as Time allows we'll go through a few some of this stuff

51:39

But just as an example of just the kind of argumentation that You know from from that webcast

51:48

I told you about with the guys at Trinity, you know, they're promoting this guy as the be -all and end -all of The provisionist writers this is this is your man, okay

52:05

Let's see what the man has to say. So in footnote 405 There is an attempt

52:15

And again, there's nothing new here Oh Alan started responding to Owen years and years ago and even though you know an entire book was written that Went after him

52:34

He's pretty much just doubled down on it Without really hearing it but listen listen to this footnote

52:42

So speaking of Owen in the death of death and death of Christ Owen's logical argument is as follows number one

52:50

Christ's atonement Was for an equivalent number of people as is his intercession.

52:56

So let's stop just there That almost sounds like well, he can only atone

53:02

For a certain number the same number that he intercedes for the reality is the argument is the biblical argument is that the high priest in his function as high priest

53:19

Offers the sacrifice one of the couple of sacrifices that were made on Yom Kippur He offers the sacrifice but he then takes the blood and he enters into the holy place and He sprinkles the blood on the mercy seat and So the

53:46

Audience of the atoning work and the intercessory work before The mercy seat is the same

53:56

Those for whom the sacrifice is made Are those who are interceded for?

54:03

Before the mercy seat. So if that's what the high priest does then this is what we're told in Hebrews Jesus is able to save to the uttermost those drawn out of God by him why since he ever lives to make intercession for them, so the saving power is in the intercessory work of Christ and that intercessory work of Christ is

54:36

Specific it's limited He's not interceding for all people

54:44

So Owen's argument is that there is a consistency so technically the word for an equivalent number of people as is his intercession is true

54:56

But the way of its expression could make you think that he was saying

55:02

Talking about numbers rather than the identity of the group for whom the intercession is being made number two

55:09

Christ intercedes only for for the elect alone well

55:16

I've had a lot of conversations with people about this if I Could be wrong, but you know just a few months ago a few months half a year ago now on that difficult trip back to Jonesboro If I recall correctly,

55:39

I think maybe one of our opponents because Our opponents weren't exactly on the same page,

55:45

I'm not sure where that one guy was Honestly the whitey in view guy

55:52

But I'm not certain if they if one of them didn't at least say that Jesus did intercede for others

56:04

But it's Painfully clear According to Hebrews chapter 7 if Christ intercedes for you will be saved

56:13

That is the the expression of salvific power. So Christ intercedes only for the elect alone number three therefore

56:24

Christ atonement was made for the elect alone so the argument is if You atone for someone but you do not intercede for them you're breaking the completion of the high priest role

56:48

If the high priest had offered the sacrifice and then Left the blood sitting on the altar and just left

56:58

Then the work was not complete the high priest had to have that blood in the bowl to enter into the holy place and Sprinkle it on the mercy seat.

57:15

So by definition If Christ is interceding before the father he has to have a foundation upon which to say be merciful to this one who is in me and so the the intention of The Sun in his self -giving is going to be identical

57:41

To the intention of the Sun in his intercession Because they are one work

57:48

They're not separate works It's the one fulfillment this this did come up this came up not only in that debate but the next night in the debate

58:00

On Roman Catholicism because This this is the strength of the reformed position.

58:08

This is this is Hebrews 7 8 9 and 10 fulfilled and so yes, the audience is the same and if the intercession saves and It is the application of the atonement then you have to come up with some kind of Unbiblical terminology

58:37

To go well Yeah Christ Saves those for whom he intercedes he dies for them, but that doesn't mean he didn't die for everybody else it's like well, but If what was his intention in doing that?

58:56

If it wasn't his intention To take the blood to the mercy seat

59:03

Then are you are you literally saying that there were two different sacrifices? One without the sprinkling of the blood and one with what what do you say?

59:12

What what's? Where do you get this? What where is it's coming from Uh, I think that's a pretty valid question so Owen er is going back to Alan now

59:28

Owen errs because he is attempting to apply the passage to all the elect as an abstract class

59:40

Now, I'm not sure The dr. Allen actually believes that the elect exists as an abstract

59:51

But Let's think about this for from you know,

59:58

I'm not sure what even an abstract class is supposed to mean but if we believe

01:00:09

That we have died with Christ that we were united with him in his death then

01:00:18

God must know Who the elect are

01:00:23

I mean? sort of definitional and He unites them with their head and so his death becomes their death

01:00:41

His burial becomes their their burial his resurrection their resurrection and Yes All who are in Christ died with him

01:00:54

Unless there are people dying unless Christ is dying over and over again There is a true and valid sense that just as Paul says

01:01:03

You are already seated in the heavenly places in Christ. Jesus. Well, I'm I'm actually sitting in a office chair in Phoenix but In there is a sense in which no

01:01:20

I'm seated in the heavenly places in Christ. Jesus You've died. Your life is hidden with Christ in God.

01:01:26

That's a spiritual reality in God's sight and So there is a sense.

01:01:34

Yes Owen isn't erring Because he is applying the passage to all the elect

01:01:44

Because that's what it doesn't say what passage it is Is it a biblical passage or is just a section from death of death

01:01:56

I don't know but certainly the author of Hebrews is saying

01:02:07

That there is a sense In which All the who are in the

01:02:13

New Covenant Whose sins are forgiven they know God No one teaches them come to know

01:02:20

God. They all know him. He is merciful their their transgressions and their sins Yes all who are in that Covenant Christ has died in their place now that they don't experience it until time but from God's perspective, it's a

01:02:39

Completed reality He goes on to say Paul assuming us

01:02:45

Hebrews Paul is referring only to believers now. Remember this is the provisionist escape key the provisionist escape key is

01:02:58

Anyone can be a believer Don't worry about Romans 8 7 3 says don't worry about what

01:03:05

John 6 says. No one can come to me Um The reality is everybody has free will and it's up to you to choose whether you become a believer and Once you become a believer then all this stuff becomes true of you because really predestination is just about what

01:03:25

God's gonna give to believers nothing more and so Paul is referring only to believers well, that's because If you are united with Christ You are going to be raised to spiritual life given his

01:03:47

Holy Spirit and you're going to believe But the provisionist turns that upside down says no you have the power to be you dead sinner you heart of stone

01:04:03

The heart of stone can choose to become a heart of love has that ability every one of those bones in the valley of the dry bones has

01:04:15

The ability in and of themselves without any external Operation other than just giving the gospel to everybody so God sets up a big old

01:04:28

Massive speaker at the edge of the valley the dry bones and he goes Anybody who wants to come to life and There are bones to start coming together without any supernatural impartation of life and get up and But power free will no, that's that's what you got.

01:04:53

So The only argue the only response that he actually offers is two sentences

01:05:01

Owen errs because he's attempting to apply the passage of all the elect is an abstract class. We're not told why that's wrong

01:05:07

Or does the Bible ever do that? And then Paul is referring only to believers. We're not told how that's relevant either

01:05:16

But then you get the conclusion and that's what this book is filled with these unfounded Conclusions, it must be this because I say so Romans 8 32 through 34

01:05:28

Does not address those who have not been justified That's what caught me.

01:05:36

I'm like Say what? Romans 8 32 34 does not address those who have not been justified.

01:05:45

Therefore while the text does prove That Christ died for everyone he intercedes for It does not prove that he died for no one else.

01:05:57

This is Owen's logical mistake now. I Think that the great.

01:06:04

Dr. Owen would go Verily what hath thou said? What you know

01:06:17

And today we go say what What could you repeat that one more time?

01:06:23

So Romans 8 32 to 34. Let's just remind ourselves Okay This is after You know those who me foreknew that's an act of God that is not taking in knowledge.

01:06:38

I'm sorry you you can't defend that You you assume it you repeat it.

01:06:43

You can't defend it He also predestined to become conformed the image of son.

01:06:48

Oh, that's all it is It's just predestination to be conformed the image of son But the only way you can be conformed the image of his son is everything else that's involved in salvation

01:06:56

You cannot conform someone who's not forgiven the image of Christ You cannot conform someone who does not believe to the image of Christ being conformed image

01:07:07

Christ is the final of all these things and So predestination is unto salvation.

01:07:13

I don't know how you cannot see your traditional lens has to be so thick to filter this out

01:07:23

So it here be the first for my among many brothers again Christ is the center of all of us and Those who me predestined he also called those who me called he also justified those who justified he also glorified

01:07:37

Golden chain It can't be broken. It's Pathetic to me that any

01:07:43

Christian would ever try to break it, but man do people do it Because if that's true, it's all

01:07:48

God. It's not a man. It's all of grace and It's astonishing you hear people who will sing amazing grace and then try to break the golden chain

01:07:59

Because all who he calls are justified all whom he justified are glorified

01:08:07

There's no way out of this. So what then shall we say these things if God is for us? Who's the us?

01:08:15

Called justified glorified who is against us and Then here's the 32 34

01:08:23

He who indeed did not spare his own son, but delivered him over for us all. So here's the here's the key phrase

01:08:29

Sorry, I'm going long here. I'll try to wrap up but He knows

01:08:36

Alan knows this is classicus locus this is classical text

01:08:44

But did not spare his own son, but delivered him over for us all

01:08:51

How will he not also with him graciously give us all things? So he tries to well the the argument here is the greater the lesser

01:09:00

Who is the us verse 33 tells us if this was any other topic if this was a deity of Christ It's a resurrection if this was almost any other topic.

01:09:09

It's not controversial between ourselves and the provisionists. They would see these things But they don't see it

01:09:18

Verse 33 who will bring a charge against him? God's elect

01:09:25

That's who the us is God's elect No, it's it's believers.

01:09:31

Well The elect will believe but that's not the language that's used here Is it if God is for us who is against us?

01:09:41

He who indeed did not spare his own son, but delivered him over for us all who God's elect

01:09:47

That's what it says. It's right there It's right in front of us

01:09:53

We can read it in Greek. We can read it in English That's the same thing who will bring a charge against God's elect.

01:10:01

God is the one who justifies So who's he justify the elect

01:10:09

No, he justifies believers You got to stick it in there someplace. So you just don't hear

01:10:15

What the text is saying because you don't you don't want to believe what the text is saying Who is the one who condemns

01:10:24

Christ Jesus? He who died? Yes rather who was raised. It was the right hand of God who what? Also intercedes for whom?

01:10:32

Oh Well, yeah, we admit that if he intercedes for you, you'll be saved but There are those for me died that you want to recede for So he wasn't a faithful hypocrite, right?

01:10:47

I mean, there's only one side here. That's allowing all scripture to speak there's only one side here that can walk through the tap and David Allen is not on that side

01:10:57

At all can't do it Not possible because they don't really believe what

01:11:04

Romans chapter 8 is saying So there is no logical mistake for Owen here at all

01:11:12

This is just a repetition of the same argument and it since it never improves

01:11:21

It demonstrates that he's not even listening to what we're saying He's not even he's not even going there.

01:11:30

So, um That was footnote number 405 402 is so close to related.

01:11:40

I need to cover it real quick. I'll cover it faster than I did the other one I promise you and we'll Call it a day for now

01:11:53

But not 402 says Though I suppose I could

01:12:01

The Well, wait a minute Where'd he go? See if I try to bring it.

01:12:09

There we go It might work that clear enough

01:12:22

Footnote number 402 says though longenecker Schreiner and most other modern commentators whether reformed or non -reformed do not elaborate on Paul's use of us and its implications for the extent of the atonement is

01:12:37

Clear that whatever their views on the extent question none asserts or even implies that Romans 8 31 to 34

01:12:43

Suggests or supports limited atonement except we just walk through the text and it

01:12:53

Does exactly that? right, it specifically says Delivered over for us for the

01:13:06

Substitutionarily for us we believe in substitutionary atonement But do you believe in a substitutionary atonement for Someone who's not the us

01:13:20

Where do you get that from Romans 8? Well, you can't prove it but where do you get that from Romans 8?

01:13:28

You don't get it from Romans 8 and you know, you don't get it from Romans 8 cuz it ain't there Charles Hodge seems to leave the identity of the us all somewhat open to interpretation as Hodge continues exposition he goes on to talk about believers

01:13:48

Yeah, but Hodge doesn't have Allen's understanding of what believers are Allen has the idea that Believers are free will believers

01:13:59

Hodge doesn't believe that But they had the ability to do this they had the ability to take out their heart of stone give themselves a heart of flesh or the bones that put themselves together and Therefore that determines

01:14:12

God's choice of them as the elect that's not Hodges position Even Though John Murray seems to take us all vaguely as the elect and predestined

01:14:21

He may mean the predestined who are in a believing state at least in his commentary the predestined

01:14:27

So so literally all Alan and his cohorts cohorts can do is try to go

01:14:33

Well, you know sometimes, you know, you can be the elect but you're not yet believing You haven't experienced regeneration

01:14:40

That's not what they're talking about. They're not talking about before you know prior to regeneration and they're talking about the elect and the results of being elect and Belief is a part of the result of the work of the

01:14:57

Holy Spirit of God. I think that's why you don't have even an attempt At trying to deal with Romans 8 7 of the right here because there's just nothing there

01:15:09

Uh The all things contemplate are the gifts and blessings of grace bestowed upon believers and are therefore all the things which come

01:15:17

Which the context as when dealing with salvation in its whole expanse would be expected to indicate

01:15:22

Murray Romans 326 again as soon as they say believers they go. Ah, there's our there's our out

01:15:28

But that's not what any of these people actually believe That's not what they're trying to communicate.

01:15:34

They're not trying to communicate. Yeah, God's choice was depend upon their free will of Resurrection to life of themselves however is indicated above Murray seems to broaden the us all to include all the elect as Such and the justified when he makes arguments for limited atonement and redemption accomplished.

01:15:52

Well, of course he did and That's what he was communicating in his commentary on Romans But this is the kind of absolute doublespeak

01:16:04

Trying to say well they didn't necessarily say there's a didn't necessarily say that and yet, honestly you you you look at what was said here and None a search we've implies

01:16:17

Romans 831 34 Suggests or supports limited atonement. So let me just let me just 831 234, huh?

01:16:27

Okay. All right. So here's Here it is here's 831 34 and it says

01:16:37

He who did not spare his own son but delivered him but Who pair him own pontoon in?

01:16:49

behalf of us all Delivered him that is standard sacrificial language

01:16:57

How shall he not also together with him cut in states

01:17:03

I freely give to us Top hunter all things

01:17:09

Who is to us tis and kalesai kata a collect own who will bring a charge against The elect say you of God guys want to justify this for whom

01:17:26

Does the father give the son? substitutionarily for the elect of God What these guys want to say is that's not

01:17:36

God's choice that was there but but but in the same chapter it said they they are not even able to Subject themselves the law of God.

01:17:50

We're not talking about that, right? the traditions of men

01:17:58

Versus the words of God. How many times have we seen it?

01:18:05

How many times do we have to see it? Well, I'll tell you right now Unless the

01:18:11

Spirit of God Opens your heart and mind You can hold all sorts of Stuff.

01:18:19

Oh, you're saying God has predestined. Some of his children are never gonna know so You're that again is an objection against the plain teaching.

01:18:29

God does whatever he pleases in heaven earth You don't even have the willingness to accept the doctrine of God that a pagan king had

01:18:40

Nebuchadnezzar When he said who can lift a hand Who can resist him?

01:18:48

He was right. He was right and you know what

01:18:53

God Probably demonstrate to you someday exactly what his purposes and you'll go

01:19:01

I lay my hand on my mouth. I wish I had done that before I published all those back on earth

01:19:10

So, there you go So, yeah, there's lots of more of stuff like that in there that we will get to but I at some point

01:19:21

I guess we will just have to go the section on Romans 8 and Read all sorts of stuff that just does it's not relevant

01:19:32

It just doesn't make any sense. It's it's just thrown out there It's dust and smoke and mirrors and stuff like that and try to get through it and then once you're through it go

01:19:42

Okay, where was the exegesis? Do you know what the text actually positively says now or have you just been

01:19:51

Overwhelmed with why it may not mean this it could mean that and this guy over here he thinks that the sky is green and you know, just just Irrelevancies all over the place and then you have to ask yourself the question.

01:20:06

Why is that? Why is one side always doing that while the other side says let's just walk the tech, you know, let's

01:20:15

Let's see if we can follow the argument all the way through. I think that's really the best way

01:20:23

All right. Well, thanks for listening the program today Lord willing

01:20:29

I was Something going on Thursday Is there something?

01:20:40

When you get home from a trip no Friday, we've got the plumber coming Sometimes you just get

01:20:50

You you raise the microphone. Oh, I just wanted to point out that tomorrow will premiere another one of my new show

01:20:58

Oh, let the scripture speak. So I just finished recording that this morning. Mm -hmm.

01:21:03

So this one ought to Uh draw a little more fire than the last one

01:21:11

Okay, just thought I'd throw that out there a little little free advertising never real free advertising.

01:21:17

That's right I got my shot there is so You know, we did start in your in your your garage so I suppose, you know, it's

01:21:28

Time for the dividends to pay out something along those lines So all right, we'll look forward to that and Who knows what if we'll

01:21:38

I don't know if I'll continue with any of that next time around We'll see like I said with this debate.

01:21:44

Hopefully by Thursday. We'll be able to tell you what it's gonna be about and with whom You have some fair amount of work to do aside from plumbers and handymen and putting new doors up and Everything else that goes along with a house.

01:22:03

It was built in 1969 Yeah And the

01:22:08

FedEx person coming to the gate. I'm not sure if you're expecting anything, but probably not Okay, probably going to the bookstore.

01:22:15

I would imagine anyways. Thanks for watching the program We will see in a couple days