Exposing Fake Healers with Justin Peters

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00:05

And you're you're I'm gonna tell you you're so smug that you cannot listen to somebody try to talk to you about something without ridicule

00:13

It's it's incorrect. I Know it's incorrect according to your the way you want to absolutely interpret it.

00:20

No, no No, he's he's saying you saying that he's smug is incorrect. No, I am smug.

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I you know, I own it I'm fine with it.

00:30

You know, I it doesn't bother me One two three Welcome to apologetics live

00:37

We're here to answer your questions and challenges about god and the bible meet your hosts from striving for eternity ministries

00:44

Andrew rapoport, dr. Anthony silvestro and pastor justin pierce We are live apologetics live here to answer your challenging questions about god and the bible

00:58

I hear every thursday night or at least we try to be uh to answer any questions that you have challenges, whatever you have now tonight, we're going to have a little bit of a

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Special topic as we try to always do but just because we have topics doesn't mean we're not here to answer your questions so if you feel free to join us just come on in just go to apologetics live

01:21

Live .com and from that site, you will be able to click on the

01:26

Streamyard link which brings you uh, it's that duck icon and brings you in and to the backstage and then we will add you in Uh, let me bring my co -host here

01:37

Pastor justin. How are you, sir? Doing really wonderful. How are you doing? Good. Did you did you enjoy that that intro like clips from last week?

01:46

I was wondering if he was going to get the second part where he where he uh, Got angry at you for calling him prideful and I I put up the definition what uh smug was

01:56

Oh, I maybe I got to go back and and grab that. I I did a couple of them I did grab a couple of them.

02:02

We have a you know We we have some of the some interesting comments from him

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Maybe so he needs to play them. Well, just so everybody knows the reason I said smug is because He was being very smug and the definition of smug is prideful

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I mean, it's flat out prideful. He got upset when I said he was being prideful

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Yes, he did, but he admitted to it gladly and owned it when I said he was being smug Maybe you should know terms before you own them and claim them

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Well, I I said to to mr. Stockwell who's here He's not going to be on camera, but he doesn't want to be but he

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I said that uh, you know that he he admitted to things that actually would would kind of Disqualify him as a minister of the gospel.

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That's that's not that's right So next week you'll you'll get an opportunity hopefully to talk with norm. I sent him my 20 some questions

02:57

I think there were 20 actually questions. I didn't see your questions. No, I I sent it just to him. I could yeah

03:03

Um, but I I sent him my question. So he now has I mean he's got the questions. I want to ask him so Uh, hopefully we'll have him back on and we can go through more of the questions.

03:12

I think i'll ask him if he could Uh give me in writing answers. That would be helpful That would be nice so that we have them ahead of time.

03:21

So uh I I uh, just real quick next next week Just programming note pastor.

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Justin is going to be with norm that the preacher norm that's the guy that we had on last week that is the

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Uh guy that is a minister of the church of christ. So i'm sure the issue of baptismal regeneration will come up Maybe smugness will come up May that be a good thing is to ask him if he understands, you know, the definition of smugness and start with that You know, well, even if he doesn't come we are still going to have an entire conversation about it um, josiah is going to come in and We're going to have a good conversation.

03:59

We've been talking a lot about the issues And no matter what happens next week, uh, unless the lord returns we're rapture um, no matter what happens, uh

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Whether he shows up or not, we're still going to have a very good show And we're going to talk about the issues Either way it goes.

04:17

Okay You know, hey real quick before we get started. I do have a concern here. Uh, and I pastor justin

04:23

I think you'll understand. Do you do you? Do you know do you have any like ways of like locking the refrigerator?

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Because I I got a stock well in the house And i'm very nervous that my my you know, he's been eyeing my food

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And uh, you know Well, i've had mike at the house and I understand that but I have a 15 year old who is a swimmer now

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And he's a bottomless pit. So Who eats more a stock well or your 15 year old son?

04:51

I'm gonna say I don't know mike mike probably has it Yeah, yeah, we're gonna we plan on going to some all you can eat sushi place and put them out of business.

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So Um, so tonight's topic is going to be exposing Fake faith healers but the the issue here is

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There these are being exposed by not who we expect We usually expect well, mr.

05:18

Justin peters. There he is, you know We usually expect him to be the ones Doing that.

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Um, oh kt says you need to be well stocked for a stock. Well, yeah, I like that I like that Mr.

05:32

Peters, how are you, sir? I am doing well brothers. How are y 'all good good? Now you requested us bring someone in who is is new to me not to you so let me let me bring him in and uh

05:47

Steve how are you, sir? Hi guys. I'm doing good good so Um, that was neat.

05:53

This could switch that easily I didn't want to play with that. So steve steve kosar.

05:58

Uh, you you worked Uh, at least I know a little of your work i've seen you on american gospel. We're going to play a clip of that later you you've kind of exposed some of uh

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Some of the tricks that some of these guys do at least, uh, todd white um, and so You know, that's that's something that uh

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You know, actually we could Justin, do you want us just to play that now or do you want to hold off for that one till later?

06:26

um Whatever you want to do. Um maybe Once we define the subject matter tonight, then we can go to it.

06:34

Okay. Sure So so one of the things that we end up seeing we have these faith healers

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Um or fake healers if you really want to call them what they are. Um guys that go and pretend to do healings

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And justin you have you have a ministry that's kind of pigeonholed to you Everyone knows you just for that one thing of exposing these guys uh

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For folks that don't know justin's actually a really good exegete of scripture and that's the main thing that you know, he he does but everyone has you speaking on like benny hinn and all these guys

07:11

Uh invite justin to your church to to just preach at a pulpit. That's a good thing to do Uh, he preaches really well, but that aside uh

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You know these guys go out and they they have little tricks that they do now I i'm gonna have to ask justin for you to give a background on this person darren brown because this was something that you sent to us and you know,

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I have a A clip of this. How long is this clip? This is a seven minute clip that I don't know if we'll play the whole thing that you first sent us of faith healers tricks exposed uh

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I may have sent you the I don't think I think that well, this was a several this was like several days ago

07:53

Actually, it may have been pastor justin that sent it and and sparked it Okay All right.

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So darren brown is a um, he's a british guy and he's done a number of documentaries

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On various things. He's he's um, I guess he would call himself a skeptic. He was skeptic at large.

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He's uh a professing atheist um And he's done a number of things like debunking psychics and that kind of stuff kind of like james randy did back in the 80s and 90s and alts but um

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Darren brown contacted me Because he was doing a documentary on faith healers and the title of the documentary is miracles for sale and so he had heard or someone that works with him heard of me and My research and they contacted me and and they actually interviewed me for this documentary and they ended up not using

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Any of the footage that they took with me and uh, it's because I I made the request if they're going to use my footage

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Please allow me to share what the true gospel is. And so I gave a very brief gospel presentation, but um,

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They didn't want to put that in there. So they just dropped everything. Wow, all all of my stuff would you know, that's fine

09:14

Uh, I mean, it's not fine that the gospel didn't get in but whatever Uh, so but nonetheless

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I watched the documentary and it and it was it was well done. It's very interesting because the gist of it is

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Is he was sent out to prove that what these fake faith healers do is indeed fake and he took this guy named nathan

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And nathan is not a believer. He's not a christian. He's an agnostic

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Calls himself an agnostic And darren brown spent Some weeks with him training him in the lingo of Faith healers in the tactics of faith healers and he wanted to see if he could take this guy

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Who's not even a christian? And see if this guy could get the same results as the

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If there is such a thing real faith healers, right? Yeah, you know, which is that's an oxymoron.

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But um And you know what he did He did Uh, he got the exact same results.

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He this this uh, nathan guy after a few few weeks of training Went out on the streets and he did the exact same thing

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That todd white does exact same thing And got 100 success

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Every single person he went up to randomly on the street He he had a 100 success rate in alleviating them

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From their pains and one person at least one person uh lengthened their legs and And the people were absolutely convinced

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That this guy this nathan guy was the real deal and they were shocked They were shocked because their pain went away their aches and pains

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They one guy you will see can touch his touches his toes. And could you do that before? No, I couldn't do that before I can do it now.

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It's amazing. It's a miracle this guy's a complete fraud and nathan's a complete fraud and That's the whole point

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So anyway, that's kind of the That's kind of the gist and it's interesting that that they they aired this back in 2011

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So this documentary is now 11 years old And this was before todd white really

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I mean todd white was around but he wasn't anywhere nearly Well as well known as what he is now.

11:31

Yeah So Okay, so that's that's really the history. So this was this was at least new to me

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Um, I I didn't I hadn't seen it 11 years ago Uh, but and I didn't see originally

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I just had the seven minute clip Where he you know from there that uh, pastor justin sent out so there's a the you want me to play the part that you had, uh,

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Do the three and the one I sent you because that that deals with exactly what I just described Okay, so let me let me share my screen here to where we can see that All right, so And I will you got it the 56 minute 30 second mark.

12:15

Yeah about that So that's pretty close. It will hit play The reason for choosing an ordinary person to be a faith healer is to show as I believe that the healing is not god's work

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Anyone having been taught certain tricks and techniques can do it As you know pain is a very subjective thing

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Whether it's the adrenaline of a big show or just somebody telling them with enough confidence that the pain is gone

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There are many videos online of street faith healers supposedly curing the sick So on a cold dallas morning,

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I take our former scuba diver out to see if he can do the same This will be more of a challenge than working with a receptive congregation, but I think nathan's ready to do it any hour

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Right now pastor james. Do you got any pains? Have you got any pains? I have pain in my leg that surgery right here.

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They said it was in that pain I had a wrap put in and I always want to get cold. So you got a plate in there. You got a plate The first person we find is in persistent pain from a metal plate in his leg

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Oh, it's a lot, right? So when you get up, I bet when you get up from a chair or from here You got to push yourself up with your arms. Whereas when you were younger, you just sprung up, right?

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Yeah, right. I'm gonna put my hands on your leg. Okay, I want you to think about the pain you're in right now Okay, and that's a 10. Okay. Nathan knows the techniques.

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This is his moment of truth Dear lord, this man's plate in his leg has caused him so much pain that plate's so cold You're warming it up right now lord.

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You're warming it up right now I can feel the man shaking in your power. I can feel the man shaking in your power lord You get that pain right out you get that cold right out you get that.

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Can you feel that? Yes What's it like? What does it feel like? What can you say? It's a tingling feeling in my leg, man

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Stand right up stand right up. You don't have to push up You don't see you didn't have to push up this time, right? Remember we're talking about you have to push up man is very moved and staggered that his pain has gone

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You told me that pain was a 10 before right? Yes, sir. Okay What's that pain in that left leg right now? You can reduce hasn't it that pain zero high five

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So You got any aches and pains Your back lower back. So I want you to remember what you remember right now is how bad that pain is right now

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Imagine that's a level 10. Okay Lord let the power of your holy spirit pass through this man.

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Let that pain be gone so this man can move freely Amen, I can feel that heat. Can you feel that because I can feel there's a lot of heat. I'm just all here

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Stand up for me. So it's a 10 before right? So it's a 10. So what is it now? Three three two.

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Can you touch your toes? You do that so easily. Did you do that before properly? No, you couldn't do that before.

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No, I had a car wreck like two months ago You were in a car wreck two months ago. You've had a pain in your back since then.

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What did it feel like? Thank you god these people aren't really being healed but they are experiencing pain relief brought about by suggestion

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Nathan heightens their expectation and they respond accordingly their minds at least for a while not feeling any pain

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Put your hand on top of mine. It works on every single volunteer Can you feel that because I can feel something happen there

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Yeah, yeah What we're going to do extend your legs put your feet into my hands even tries the old leg lengthening routine

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So this leg is shorter by an inch Can you see that difference telling people their problems are caused by having one leg shorter than the other

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And then manipulating a shoe to create the illusion that a leg is lengthened stand up stand up Walk a favorite trick performed by healers who claim that it's real.

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Jesus has healed you, right? Afterwards we tell all the people nathan healed the true nature of what we're doing

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This guy isn't really a faith healer. We carry on finding more people and keep getting the same positive results

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So with a 100 success rate pastor james has healed the sick i'm astonished

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At how effortless it is the nature of pain is clearly so subjective that in the same way that you don't

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Notice you cut your fingers sometimes until you look down actually see the blood and then suddenly it starts to hurt in the same way it can go like that if somebody just Has you believe that it's gone?

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So there we go Yeah That's how it's done

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I mean here's a guy who is not even a christian doesn't believe any of this knew nothing of The evangelical lingos or faith healing tactic tactics at all until a couple weeks before this was filmed he goes out and he has a 100 percent

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Success rate he does the exact same thing that todd white does Which proves beyond any shadow of a doubt from any halfway person

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That todd white is a fraud And everybody else, you know all the all the all of his ilk frauds

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You know a trained monkey can do the same thing that they can do Yeah, it's amazing that they they wanted to I did pick up they said they want to make sure to explain to each person

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That they're not really faith healers and who they really are, but they didn't want you

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To share the actual gospel Yeah Yeah, that that is that is interesting.

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Um But uh, I I will say to to that point though. Andrew is that at least darren brown and this nathan guy?

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I don't remember his last name, but at least they had the decency to go and tell these people. Uh we were just This was fake we weren't this isn't real so they have here darren brown's a homosexual

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So here you have a homosexual and just a general loss guy. So we have more integrity

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I'm gonna talk to you with that though. Justin. He's not a homosexual. He practices homosexuality.

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Well, yeah Because there is a difference yeah, but I mean that's you know, you're right they they're having the integrity to To point that out and correct that Yeah, right.

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The format of the show was a kind of a reality tv show and the uh, the young man was being

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Uh, he was initially Um, what do you call it when you have auditions they auditioned actors?

18:09

Yeah, who's who? All said yeah, I want to do this thing with darren brown I want to spend

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I think it was wasn't it three or more months? On this project was it that long? Maybe it was it was a long time it's been a while since i've watched this and so people had to Prove that they were good enough actors and that they were willing to go through whatever they needed to go through and so this guy nathan

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As it they got closer and closer he was getting really uncomfortable with What he was supposed to do because he knew

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I'm going to go out there and i'm going to really play with people's deepest felt problems and issues and feelings and i'm probably going to do damage and Darren if I remember right

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I watched this a couple times, but it's been a while he was saying you know What the the overall good of what we're doing here is to expose the people who do this for real

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So don't feel bad about tricking people because we're going to let them know that we're tricking them after the fact right and I watched this as a

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Guy who was coming out of the charismatic movement? And I was just so hungry to hear somebody just somebody please tell me the truth about what's really going on in these churches

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That you know, I found it really helpful. I wasn't buying into his atheism his atheism, but I thought well

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I respect the fact that he wants to Convince the general audience out there that these frauds are doing great damage.

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I I'm ashamed that the christian church doesn't want to do the same thing nearly enough

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Yeah, that's a good point steve because you know as open -air evangelists

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I've spoken to many other guys that have had the same experience, but some of the toughest crowds to evangelize at Is that some of these guys?

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uh events so you go to a benny hinn or a you know, You know wherever they're speaking and those are some of the hardest places to evangelize

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I believe it this and this this actually gets to a really core issue and uh for you guys who don't know

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I have a youtube channel on a website called the messed up church And most people know me because of my friendship with chris roseborough.

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I do stuff with him pretty often But there is two issues. There's the issue of people are getting tricked by these tricks

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They're parlor tricks. They seem pretty obvious. How is that possible? How can people be so dumb? That's the one level of thought but the other issue is much deeper and much more sort of psychological and that is

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There's a whole world that these people are part of they're they're completely surrounded By all these self -contained thoughts.

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It's like a bubble of ideas and All of those ideas are backing up everything that happens within that world so the the outside world says

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You really believe that guy made your leg the right length. How can you be so gullible? But in that world

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You've been given a whole foundation of bad ideas and all these bad ideas

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Make you into essentially a type of cult follower with a veneer of christianity

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And and justin and I both have talked about this on our youtube channels the comments that we get from the word of faith

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New apostolic reformation people are the most cult -like and they're the most resistant resistant to any kind of Honest sharing of ideas and you know, there there's absolutely no way they would question what they currently are believing

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You know one of the things steve that people, you know, if the case there's any Charismatics that are watching and and saying well, no, no, we're not that way that doesn't happen um

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You know, it's it's good to maybe take a step back and look at other things that they where they might agree Sure, and so, you know you look at You know the way the the media and the democrats right now have done the very same thing

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They've told a lie over and over and over again so many times That you have people that really believe right the lies

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Um, even when they contradict everything they said, you know, like the things that got many people kicked off of youtube a year ago

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They're now openly saying Uh, and it's like well. Hello some of us were saying this for two years now, right?

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And now for for those that may be charismatic think about that because you can see that behavior

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When it comes to like political things when it comes to masks or vaccines Or anything with this covet stuff and you see how how blatant it is how just constantly hearing the the

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Lie over and over and over and over people believe it and even when they change stories people believe it

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So you can't say it can't happen I know you you may say well can't happen to me

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Guess what? All of the people that are believing the media are saying the same thing They're saying it can't happen to them either

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So the fact that we know it can happen and we know that it can happen to people who think it can happen to them

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Like you just look at the videos and and let the evidence Be the proof

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Not your feelings because that's really what it comes down to is none of us want to be wrong I mean,

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I understand, you know, some of us some of us are right more often than others, you know, I know Justin over here both justins, you know, they they're they they prefer to be wrong more than right, you know

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But steve and I we we're right more often than wrong. I'm sure and uh No, but but the reality no one wants to be wrong right and when evidence proves

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That they're wrong the most common Behavior is to double down on wrong.

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Yes Um friend anyone that needs an example go to last week's episode with norm from the church of christ

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And when we went through scripture, I mean you saw him just double down on on wrong

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You know, even when the the evidence was right there in front of him. It's like exactly No, we're gonna we're gonna find baptism where it isn't that baptism saves

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This is the behavior we see with many people. So I want to put this as an appeal to anyone that may be charismatic listening

24:26

Maybe in word of faith Just understand that what we're going to say, I know

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I understand you're saying this couldn't be me but You know the statistics and and i'm going to give you the statistics that come from the word of faith, you know prophets um, yeah, they claim to be right 85 of the time

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So That means 15 of the time they should be stoned to death according to scripture

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Right, that's the thing the fact that these guys who are not believers can do the same things that these word of faith guys can do

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It's no different than if you guys have seen justin peters when he does his clouds without water seminar that he does and if you haven't seen that Well go to justinpeters .org

25:12

and get clouds without water and watch the series But one of the things he does he'll ask actually i'll let you do it.

25:19

Justin Uh, you have a group of people you put you have a slide you you describe different things that happen with a group of people and you ask the people who is this group and and everyone always says charismatics and and It's someone else

25:38

Yeah, I I give a list of behaviors that are commonly associated with the pentecostal charismatic movement of speaking in tongues being slain in the spirit

25:50

Prophesying claiming physical healings um There's another one, um, but anyway, yeah, so I'll list these behaviors

26:00

What's that the falling down and shaking? Yeah. Yeah erratic jerking and shaking uncontrollable laughter is what

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I was looking for So uncontrollable laughter being slain in spirit healing speaking in tongues all this stuff

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And I asked I asked people what group do you what theological group do you automatically think of when you see these behaviors?

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And people always say pentecostal charismatic and then i'll put up the graphic hindus

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Hindus Hindus do the exact same things that charismatics do and they do them in the exact same way and and Stephen can testify to this as well.

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I know he's done some work on this as well. That's you see the exact same behavior in kundalini hindu kundalini, um

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That you see in the charismatic movement exactly the same. You cannot tell the difference. They look exactly alike

26:55

And so that shows that just because someone is exhibiting one or more of these behaviors Is not an indication that that ability is coming from god pagans do it too

27:04

And they do it in the exact same way Yeah, it's one of the questions. I often ask people

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Is what group is you know before 1905 what group was known for speaking in tongues

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Prophesying and having ecstatic experiences answer shakers mormons

27:26

Yeah Yeah mormons too mormons And the shakers. Yeah. Yeah, that's very common.

27:33

Steve kozar and um Daniel is his name daniel daniel long. Yep Yeah, they've done a number of videos that I have found very helpful and they and um

27:43

He goes to newspapers .com Steve that y 'all go to so newspapers .com and you can look up old old old newspapers and there's screenshots photocopies and um

27:55

In the in the charismatic generals, you know what? Roberts leardon has described as god's generals

28:02

Catherine coolman amy simple mcpherson william brannan a .a. allen john alexander dowey um charles parham

28:11

You know these guys were absolute frauds and charlatans and Hucksters and many many people died under their quote -unquote care uh,

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I mean the the history of the charismatic movement is just Horrible, I mean absolutely horrible and um, they were immoral

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They were sexually immoral and like seven seven of them all claimed to be elijah.

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I mean about the only about the only well -known charismatic Leaders who did not claim to be elijah were the women

28:48

I guess they just that was a little bit of a too much of a stretch for them. I suppose so, um all the guys did

28:55

I mean um so anyway, steve steve, you you can you could yeah, we uh,

29:01

I did an interview with um uh, barry morton who's a professor at indiana university

29:07

And he has the primary article that's gotten big on wikipedia and is being referenced a lot about John g lake.

29:16

Yes. John g. Lake and john g. Lake was a absolute fraud. He was a con artist Yep, and the crazy thing is you just you know, andrew

29:25

Like you said in the beginning you just keep repeating something over and over again and people just assume it must be true So john g.

29:31

Lake keeps being described as this great healer Who did all these great things? But the only evidence of those great things is the books that he wrote about himself

29:38

And the stories that he told about himself that's that's really the case with all these early pentecostal leaders

29:44

But the actual evidence, you know what what the newspapers reported Is completely different They were very controversial in their day.

29:52

John g Lake and the guy before him Who really is the grandfather of all of them is is uh, the names are confusing.

29:59

John alexander dowey uh Daniel and I both are going to lord willing get a book published in the next year or so and um trying to kind of paint the picture of what's really

30:12

The core of these people what's really going on? Who were they what did they actually do according to the historical records and when they said?

30:20

You know this day I was here and on that day. I was there What does the actual historical record say for instance?

30:26

John g. Lake claimed that he was on the chicago board of trade That he was a multi -millionaire business owner

30:33

And he had this huge salary and he gave it all up and he gave all the money away And then he needed to ask for money immediately thereafter for the rest of his

30:43

Ministry But there's no evidence. There's the the chicago board of trade has records And his name is not there.

30:50

You know, there's certain things that you can just prove didn't happen. It's just a story So yeah, that's it's a really interesting topic but unfortunately, um on youtube if you say uh

31:01

John g. Lake was really bad Just some name from 100 years ago. Everybody's like i'll watch that later

31:07

But if you say benny hinn is a fraud or some really famous current person that's where people get all excited and you can get some traction, but The level of interest or the attention span is incredibly short for most

31:21

And i'm going to paint with a broad brush, but in the charismatic world It's worse than it is in the broad evangelical world, which is actually pretty bad to begin with.

31:30

Yeah you know we all gonna uh, are you gonna take each one of God's generals and and and do a refutation because I think that would be yeah, we talked about it

31:40

I I have I started a series of articles which seemed like a better idea because it's there's just so much information the thing that we found is that between dowey

31:52

And john g. Lake and charles fox parham and the one they all don't want you to know about frank sanford frank sanford

31:59

He was a notorious convicted murderer cult leader

32:05

And there is absolute evidence that speaking in tongues actually started with him and parham took that idea and brought it out in the

32:14

Topeka thing the the so -called revival at his tiny little dinky bible school with like a half dozen single women

32:22

And then that idea got carried Through seymour to the azusa street revival but it starts with absolute

32:30

Fraud cult leader murderers and i'm saying actual murderers not figurative

32:35

Frank sanford was in jail Right actual murderers. Yes, they would abuse

32:40

Some of these guys had massive followings and they had compounds, uh dowey did sanford did parham did and and um,

32:51

Was it was it dowey? Yeah, that was in zion, illinois. I was actually just there a few months ago. I've got video footage i'm

32:56

Actually, uh hoping to do some videos where we go there and we talk about it It's an amazing story if I was a non -christian documentary filmmaker

33:06

I would grab this story and I would get the biggest budget I could could and I would make a full -length documentary film because it's

33:13

It's like everything that people don't like about whatever popular figure take take donald trump

33:19

If you think you know, he's too over the top You know, he says things where he should have you know kind of thought about it first dowey is that Times a thousand times a thousand and a thousand at least donald trump never claimed to be elijah.

33:32

Yes And it's all it's all just covered up and we have this, you know a couple of paragraphs about him

33:40

Maybe that people go. Oh, yeah, I guess he was a great healer and the thing that also really bothers me and i'm going on a rant here, but Everybody's supposed to feel guilty because they're not doing all the stuff that these guys supposed to supposedly did

33:51

Yeah, and that's and that's one of the things steve when you just hit on is that What this does to the to the average?

33:59

Charismatic church member is they see these guys and it's like well i'm not doing that, right?

34:04

I don't have that experience. It must be something I'm, not spiritual enough for that. I and so they're always looking for a greater and greater experience

34:13

To be able to say we'll see now more spiritual like that person And yet what they don't realize is those people aren't actually having those experiences

34:21

They're they're being faked for the sake of of gathering money It's a great way to kill a person's faith because if you're in a faith environment that keeps promising

34:30

God's going to do all these things and I know it's true because i'm going to tell you about it from this stage

34:36

With this authority i'm the famous person. I came in from out of town. I've got books. I've got tv shows

34:41

I must know what i'm talking about You you just you know in that environment again, it's a closed circle of ideas you believe all that stuff and so It's so hard to break through that closed world and kind of pop the bubble and so some of the videos and some of the things that i've done are a little

34:57

Maybe a little too harsh at times or a little too sarcastic or I i'm always trying to think of how can

35:03

I? How can I force people to look at something and see it fresh for the first time?

35:08

Because it's right there in front of them. They're going to church They're hearing these things week after week you know and we can't go into each church and Get on stage and say stop

35:18

Even though we wish we could Thankfully youtube gives us a lot of a lot of options

35:25

I'm gonna pull up a question here for you guys because mike mike asked a really good question. I'm gonna pull this up for you

35:31

Um, mike smith said what is the difference? between a faith healer and a person doing miracles and And that's a really good question

35:40

I think because we want to make sure that We define our terms and then we explain what's going on with this

35:49

Okay one of the biggest ways that a hyper charismatic faith healer type will

35:55

Gain continued support and hold on to his people is by saying Those people are against the holy spirit.

36:02

Those people don't believe in healing. They don't think that god answers prayer anymore So it's this false dichotomy between the people that always have healing and the holy spirit's doing all sorts of amazing stuff

36:13

And if you're not in favor of them, you must be this complete opposite, which is just not true

36:19

Okay. Well, so let's let's follow on that question and I guess justin both you guys need to really

36:25

Jump in here on this question. Let's follow up on that and say um are miracles still for today and does god still work miracles, you know the healing and the the you know, all those special miracles that we we see yes, okay, so Yes, god does still perform miracles today.

36:44

No, there are no more miracle workers today Yes, god still does physically heal people today.

36:51

No, there are no faith healers today There is no one today who possesses the gift of healing but god does heal people when it's his sovereign will to do so In fact,

37:01

I just came back from virginia Preaching there and I had a I heard probably the most credible and absolutely compelling example a story of a genuine healing physical healing from god uh for a little baby a little baby that was born to a meth mom or his mom was a

37:24

Really really strung out on meth and of course a little baby was born with all kinds of health issues long story short

37:29

The baby, uh had had serious intestinal issues. They did emergency surgery

37:35

This little guy was adopted by a family in the in the church. I was just at And um, they did emergency surgery on him

37:43

They went in and opened him up and his intestines the doctor said were just ribbons

37:50

I mean his intestines were just ribbons. I mean there was nothing it was so bad that there was nothing they could do for him they just um, they just sewed him up and uh and didn't give him much chance of living long at all and if he did he would have to be have to be fed through a

38:08

I guess a tube in his Tummy or or something like that. But anyway is his his

38:15

His intestines were gone and um But then the next day literally like the next day um

38:24

He had he made a poopy diaper which was impossible and There this little guy's, you know parents who were at this church

38:34

They they called in they were in the hospital and they called in the nurse. The nurse got the doctor the doctor came in and saw for himself

38:41

This baby just pooped He made a poopy diaper and the doctor said this is not even possible

38:49

It's not even possible. He his his intestines are ribbons and um

38:55

And then he later that day he made another one and another one and they so they did a barium test

39:01

You know that Horov had one of those a horrible They called it milkshake when I was a kid's worst milkshake I ever had and they um you know, they put it in the little little baby and they followed it all the way down through his uh digestive system stomach into a small and large intestines and No leaks.

39:18

I mean there's zero medical explanation zero none nada. So that's a real healing from god

39:24

No faith healer required No positive confessions made no seed sown

39:31

They just prayed and god in his kind providence Healed that little baby

39:37

Praise the lord. I have no problem with that. Praise the lord. I rejoice in that but that is not the same thing as saying someone has the gift of healing because nobody does

39:50

And that's why I wanted to ask the question because uh, bill, uh Chubris, I can't pronounce his last name

39:57

But bill bill asked the question. Why don't faith healers go to cancer wards at their local hospital?

40:02

And I know it sounds trite. I know it sounds like you know, oh you guys always say that always say that. Okay It's a good look.

40:09

But if you yeah, if you go look at the scripture Jesus didn't walk over and say oh you poor thing your leg hurts

40:17

Let me let me just lengthen a little bit no he said oh your ear's falling off Let me go ahead and fix that. Oh, you're dead.

40:22

Let me fix that. Oh, you don't have any food for all these people Let's feed 5 000 people

40:27

Yeah, he didn't he didn't do these little you know subjective things The miracles that were in scripture are legitimate and verifiable

40:36

Yep by the thousands so so justin actually they do go to local hospitals um if they're patient Yeah, well actually we so we had someone in our church she is she ended up in the emergency room this week and you know

40:53

She was first of all, she did say In philadelphia the emergency room was more like a third world country

41:00

She used to be a nurse. So she's used to working in hospitals and she was like this was unlike anything There's so short staffed and whatnot.

41:06

She ended up saying that uh, I think she waited like eight Eight hours to get to a room.

41:12

She was 12 hours before she saw a doctor um and got tests, but When she was before she got in the room, there was actually someone walking around supposedly healing everybody

41:25

And you know, she's she's in pain and whatnot and she's like wanting to scream like to her like you're not healing anybody you know, uh

41:34

But you know, she was going around and not a single person not a single person got up and walked out of there healed um, and so, you know, there there was a let me look at some questions we have here is

41:48

Um, first off let me put up mike's question here for for us What's the difference?

41:54

In those who do miracles And those do uh, those who do healings all the time

42:02

Yeah, I think that's what we just did in it. Is that Well, that was you played bill. So I guess okay.

42:07

That was similar then. All right, then let me let me go to to michael's Mike michael asked this

42:13

Are you saying no one has the gift of healing? That's what i'm saying I would agree with that Yeah, it's

42:22

I mean This idea that there's these special people with special super spiritual powers

42:30

Yeah, um You know and you you hear them saying well, you know the apostle paul

42:37

You know people were healed just from his shadow why don't we have that power today because we're not the apostle paul

42:43

Yeah, well, let's even define it even define it more than that. I mean and I agree with you brother. You're exactly right but the scripture actually says

42:51

That they bore in them the marks and the evidence of an apostle these these gifts of healing

43:00

Define them as apostles. I want to make it clear. I mean that's That's something that a lot of people skip over is that the people alive at that time

43:11

Who were being given revelation? revelational truth from god through the apostles

43:17

They had to have some means To verify this was god and not just somebody making it up As they were as as they were they were hearing it and one of the ways that god did

43:29

Made sure that his word was believable and verifiable was by the verifiable act of miracle

43:36

Which was only given to the apostles It was given to the apostles who were using that as a verification

43:46

That the message was from god because the miracle was from god Yeah now I know that people are going to say today.

43:52

Well, wait a minute They have a new message and a new revelation. Okay, and what's their miracle? What's their message?

43:58

Is it consistent? Does it look like what god did? Does it does it speak? As the way god did is the revelation that's being given

44:06

Is it does it show evidence as being a continuation of the word of god and the answer is no, right?

44:12

Okay, so Go go to I mean read acts 3 Right acts 3 the man who had been

44:20

Lame from his mother's womb. Yeah Read acts chapter 3

44:26

Um Peter and john going up to the temple of the ninth hour man who had been lame from his mother's womb was being carried

44:32

Whom they used to sit down at the daily at the gate of the temple, which is called beautiful and Skipping through for time saying peter said he was begging for alms peter said

44:42

I do not possess silver and gold But what I do have I give to you in the name of jesus christ the nazarene walk

44:49

In seizing him by the right hand he raised him up and immediately his feet and his ankles were strengthened

44:54

And leaping up he stood upright and began to walk Walking and leaping and praising god and all the people saw him walking

45:04

And praising god and they were recognizing him That he was the one who used to sit at the beautiful gate of the temple to beg alms and they were filled with wonder

45:11

And amazement at what had happened to him show me one person Anywhere on the planet who can do that?

45:19

Yeah, okay. So so mike michael who asked that other question says this He says that first corinthians 12 30 tells us otherwise

45:28

So let me let me just put that up on screen so we can read that always good to to actually read what's being stated so First corinthians 12 28 or sorry 30 that says specifically and i'm going to read i'll read that verse and then back up to 28

45:45

Do all have gifts of healing who they? All do not speak with tongues do they all do not interpret do they now

45:55

Let me put that in the context and read it in context And god has appointed in the church first apostles second prophets thirds teachers and then miracles and gifts and of healing helps

46:07

Administrations and various kinds of tongues all are not apostles. Are they all are not prophets?

46:12

Are they all are not teachers? Are they all are not workers of miracles? Are they all do not have gifts of healing?

46:19

Do they all do not speak with tongues? Do they all do not interpret do they but earnestly desire the greater gifts?

46:28

And I will show you a more excellent way so as Michael saying that see this is contradicting what you said earlier justin that that we don't have gifts of healing

46:37

But if we if we read this in context and just just look at verse 30 All do not have gifts of healing do they the the this is a the whole way that as you look from 28 to 30

46:49

This is asking rhetorical questions. The answer is no All don't have gifts of healing.

46:56

Do they know all do not speak with tongues? Do they know all do not interpret do they know?

47:02

There's no way you could use that passage To say that this is proving that that we would have gifts of healing today

47:10

And and you're also going to consider that in that passage, uh at the very end it says but earnestly desire the greater gifts

47:18

Which says and what is the greater gifts? What are the greater gifts gifts? Andrew? Love love exactly.

47:24

This whole chapter is about the fact In fact, the entire book of corinthians is a corrective book because this this entire church was the most

47:35

Unchristian christian group that there ever has been and yet paul still called them brothers and sisters so but you have to think they were being corrected because of they were using a worldly device of of of Speaking in tongues and everything else that was outside in the temple worship of the goddess diana and the other

47:56

The temple pagan idolatry and they were bringing that into the church And he was saying wait what you're doing is not biblical

48:06

It's not right because everybody's got a prophecy. Everybody's got a vision. Everybody's got all these things

48:11

And he's saying this is not right. This is not biblical greatest Go ahead.

48:17

He said he was saying that the greatest Gift that everybody should be desiring is love and you don't have it

48:24

Yeah, and and plus Dealing with his text notice what paul says in verse 28

48:31

He says god has appointed in the church first apostles Second prophets the church is built upon the foundation of the apostles and the prophets to use um our friends logic here, uh, michael, so uh

48:48

There are no more apostles today and yet it says right here god has appointed in the church first apostles

48:54

Are there any more apostles today? emphatically no Because an apostle had to meet three

49:02

Basic requirements. He had to be a first person eyewitness see jesus raised from the dead with his own two eyes

49:08

Number two, he had to be directly appointed by christ to be an apostle. He didn't decide to be an apostle

49:14

It's not like an elder, you know, if if a man desires the office of an elder, it's a good thing You desire it's not like that to be an apostle.

49:21

You had to be appointed by jesus christ himself to be an apostle And number three you had to have the ability to perform the signs and wonders of an apostle

49:30

Heal the sick like acts chapter three raise the dead and there is not a person alive anywhere on the planet today

49:37

Who meets even one of those requirements? Much less all three of them. So there are no more apostles today and yet obviously they're listed here

49:46

So the same thing there are no more Individuals today with the gift of healing even though they are listed there

49:53

These are these were foundational gifts to Upon which the church has been built

49:59

Since the apostolic age came to a close okay, so michael goes on to say that Uh, no, not all do but some do this is the context he says

50:10

Not all speak in tongues, but some do let's look at the context Well, let's look at that context because the what we end up seeing is in that same context if we if we pull it up Just another chapter later a little bit further.

50:24

What does he say when he's talking about love never fails But where there are gifts of prophecy they will be done away with whether where there is tongues

50:33

It will cease where there is knowledge. It will be done away with so very clearly in the context

50:39

He says that certain gifts are going to stop and so If you want to look at the context the context is not saying there will always be gifts of healing

50:49

The context is not everyone in that day and age will have the gift of healing That's the context of it

50:57

But within that same context it does say these things are have a have an end date Okay, so just as justin said that they will and he ends up suggesting what you said.

51:06

He said I may agree that uh apostle brother justin um, just I'm, not sure.

51:15

Yeah, but I may agree with the apostle brother Oh, I may agree with the apostle brother justin uh, but Just because there may not be

51:25

No more apostles There are teachers and miracles, but that I think that's missing the whole point of what you said justin

51:32

The fact that some of these went away Doesn't mean that the rest of them Doesn't mean they all went away and i'm a cessationist

51:41

I I believe that the apostolic gifts assigned gifts have ceased they are no longer operative in the church, right?

51:47

But as a cessationist I affirm the gifts of teaching mercy administration exhortation giving hospitality those gifts

51:55

Are very much operative in the church today and and by god's grace um

52:01

I have preached the gospel in 27 different countries some of them multiple times

52:07

And every single church i've been into The good ones anyway, because i've been in a few winged churches, but every every single church i've been into uh

52:15

I find people with the gift of mercy with the gift of teaching with the gift of hospitality with the gift of Administration with all those gifts.

52:23

They're there. I see them all the time I have yet to see anyone With the gift of healing nobody has that gift and in whatever spiritual gift you have

52:34

You're to be using that gift regularly in the church, right? You have the gift of teaching you're to be using that gift regularly in the church gift of mercy gift of exhortation

52:43

You'll be using these gifts regularly in the church Okay, so show me the person with a gift of healing, you know, one of the issues

52:51

I think that might give some clarity is Most of the people if not all of the people in the word of faith movement, especially

53:00

They view healing as something you learn to do you take risks you go to a class you read books

53:07

You listen to darren brown Yeah Yeah, an unbeliever an agnostic so if if I wanted to um just give somebody the biggest benefit of the doubt possible who

53:20

Like michael here who's saying it seems like there might still be this gift I think it would be okay at least just kind of off the top of my head to say well

53:28

If you've got the gift, we're not going to stop you if it came from god go out and heal people. That's great but you know

53:36

If you're one of these people that's just theoretically talking about this as a thing that should be happening

53:41

And i've heard people talk about how it should be happening and i've gone to conferences where they talk about how it should be happening

53:46

That's just all kind of theoretical And most of the healings in those environments if not, all of the healings are psychosomatic

53:54

Yeah, and then all the healings always take place in the meeting that came before where there were no video cameras

54:02

And I know there's probably exceptions and somebody's going to talk about a real healing So again, we all agree that there are real times when god does heal

54:09

But I think that the issue of does this very specific gift of healing exist in the same form today as it did back then

54:16

I think it's a really good case to say it doesn't seem like it But if you had it, why would you even care just go out and do it?

54:22

I think I think what we need to do and what might be helpful for folks is to ask Why did we have these gifts?

54:28

Okay, like let's take a step back and ask the question When do we see?

54:33

That's right. These miracles as as narrative in In history, there's there's three times in history

54:43

That we see these miracles happening as if a normal thing first time is moses after There's no scripture being written.

54:54

You had the first time scriptures being written. There's the all of a sudden you have miracles Then there goes a period of silence of writing a scripture

55:03

And all of a sudden elijah and elisha come on the scene with these miracles and what happens after them you have the writing of scripture

55:11

And then they finish up and what happens there's a period of 400 years of silence jesus comes on the scene

55:18

And there's all these miracles and what do you have again the writing of scripture? So all three times that you have the new writing of scripture after a period of silence

55:29

You have miracles why because those miracles vindicate The authors of scripture that that's how you get that You you how do you how do you trust this is god's word because it's vindicated

55:41

Now this is not to say that god doesn't heal today as as justin was saying god heals

55:47

But that's a difference than the gift of healing Those that had the gift of healing healed everybody

55:53

Healed everybody immediately And they healed everybody completely Now we might have somebody who prays for somebody that may be in that church justin you were in in virginia

56:04

Families got together and prayed for that young child. Yeah, and god might use their prayers

56:10

But the fact that he uses their prayers doesn't mean he gave them a gift of healing The fact that god chose to heal them

56:18

Doesn't mean he gave anybody the gift god did that healing even if it's through our prayer

56:23

That's different than someone who has the gift and can exercise it any time

56:29

And and that's a distinction. So we have to understand why we have the gift Why it was why we have miracles and then what is this gift of uh that we end up seeing?

56:40

You know one thing too real quick. Um to piggyback on what you're just talking about Is you know, we're talking about the miracle, you know several different types but one thing that the the scripture tells us if you read in corinthians even further than just the one verse in the first corinthians 12 30

56:58

Is if you go to first corinthians 14 22 Now if you want to pull it up we can look in the whole context of it, but it says

57:05

Uh, so then tongues are a sign not for those who believe but for unbelievers

57:13

Prophecy is a sign not for unbelievers for believers. You see the whole point is it's backwards today

57:20

We want to say that that the the gift of of the tongues is

57:27

We sit there and we proclaim the gift of tongues and we want to try to act like it's oh We're going to bring people into in for salvation or we're going to do these these great miracles.

57:35

Um, um, wait a minute Tongues is not for believers What's it for?

57:42

It's run believers sign of judgment Yeah, because they didn't they didn't know the gospel.

57:47

They didn't have the god of the gospel They didn't have the god of scripture. They didn't have the word of god being you know

57:54

Readily accessible and whatnot and those tongues were an evidence to them that something was being completely done differently

58:01

Okay, so let me let me bring up this passage then for for us to engage with okay someone is going to say what about john 4

58:10

Uh 448 which says So jesus said to him unless you you people see signs and wonders you simply will not believe

58:20

So so many will pull this verse and say well, we have to have signs and wonders for people to be able to believe

58:29

Does people do people actually say that i'm just asking. I don't know i've never Heard anybody. I I guess they probably do but yeah,

58:35

I mean So Justin peters, I mean Is that like do we have to have miracles for people to believe are there?

58:45

I I guess the question is Are there any people believing in jesus christ without miracles?

58:53

Anyone here anyone here raise a hands? Yeah, I mean Aside from the miracle of the new birth.

59:00

Yeah, the miracle of the resurrected new birth other than that, right? I mean, i mean luke 16 the rich man and lazarus

59:08

Rich man died went to the lake of fire. Lazarus died went to abraham's bosom summing up here, of course and uh,

59:16

Lazarus, excuse me, the rich man Saul was able to see across the great chasm and he he said, uh,

59:23

Father abraham send lazarus to my five brothers so that he may warn them not so that they will not also come to this place

59:29

Of torment and abraham said they have moses. They have the prophets. Let them hear them

59:35

Yeah, moses and the prophets had been dead for centuries. So how could they possibly hear moses and the prophets?

59:42

through the scriptures Through the scriptures and then at the uh, rich man said something very interesting.

59:48

He said no father abraham But if someone were to come back from the dead, then they will believe then they'll repent that will get their attention

59:56

Just let them see lazarus come back from the dead and abraham said If they will not hear moses if they will not hear the prophets

01:00:04

Neither will they believe even if someone were to come back from the dead

01:00:10

So there is an inherent power in the word of god That is not found in miracles and signs and wonders

01:00:18

And you know, jesus even proved it He even proved it because number one lazarus did raise from the dead

01:00:23

And number two jesus came back from the dead and neither nobody would believe it That's right, you know and andrew to your to your to the to the thing you just posted

01:00:33

That was actually a judgment and a condemnation. It wasn't saying Uh, uh, you know what we've got to do signs and wonders

01:00:40

No, it was saying that all you want is signs because you will not accept the truth.

01:00:45

Yeah Yeah, yeah, I made a really extensive video based on a bill johnson sermon

01:00:51

Where he was taking not that verse but one very similar to it and He was saying the absolute opposite of what the scripture said that we got to go out and do more miracles

01:01:02

And this is such a burden on people and it It has this inherent really, uh

01:01:10

You're just setting aside the gospel message You're saying the reason why people don't believe in god is because they just don't have enough proof

01:01:17

So if we can just make them healthy again and show a miracle right there on the street or whatever Then they're going to become christians and it ignores the whole issue of no.

01:01:24

The reason they're not christians is because they're sinners Yeah, and they don't they don't like god.

01:01:30

They're at war with him their sin has has separated them from god and that's That's the thing that is just getting completely set aside.

01:01:38

And in fact, um I when I was coming out of the charismatic movement It was it was about a five -year period of intense research and studying and trying to figure out what do

01:01:47

I believe? I've been kind of a mainstream evangelical for 30 some years and it was people like justin peters like chris roseborough like Some of the people that i'm really happy to be associated with today.

01:02:00

We were or they were saying We've got to get back to that gospel message of the gospel is not about you

01:02:06

Believing because you finally are convinced that god loves you because now he gave you what you wanted Which is a healing or some sort of miracle?

01:02:14

The the real true miracle is when you go I finally get it. I'm a sinner and I deserve to go to hell for my sin

01:02:21

I deserve that because god is holy and i'm not but instead of punishing me. He took the punishment on himself

01:02:28

Went to the cross in my place so that I could have eternal life What what what greater miracle there is none?

01:02:35

There's absolutely none and just in the passage that you just read and then this one These are the two probably there's a few others but at the end of john chapter 20 when uh when uh

01:02:47

Doubting thomas Says, you know unless I see the proof. Yeah, i'm not going to believe Verse 30 many other signs therefore jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples which are not written in this book

01:02:58

But these have been written that you may believe that jesus is the christ the son of god and that believing you may have life

01:03:06

In his name and right before that jesus said because you have seen me you have believed well Blessed are those who did not see and yet believe that is that's the that's the verse that I swear

01:03:16

The the word of faith people must have like a scissors or they got white out or something How do you have that in your bible and continue to teach what you teach?

01:03:24

Yeah, that's right Michael is goes on to say, uh, that's not true

01:03:30

My brother the bible says that jesus could not heal many because they did not have faith

01:03:37

Yeah, that's a great word of faith Pat that's one of the few passages that word of faith people use and the passage just doesn't give us enough information to make that Claim there should be this constant theme of how jesus and god is limited by your faith

01:03:50

So get to work have enough faith muster it up somehow Here are 10 tips to have more faith so that god can do what he wants to do

01:03:57

I just don't see that clearly enough and the problem I have with that is you have a low view of god, right?

01:04:03

That you think god on earth Cannot do something That's within his nature

01:04:09

Right. There is nothing that god cannot do that's within his nature. There's things he cannot do outside his nature.

01:04:16

God cannot lie but to think that our Human unbelief is more powerful

01:04:23

That it restricts god from what he's able to do That that we're somehow greater or stronger that god really wishes he could do some healings

01:04:33

But he just can't because there's so much unbelief That To me is about as close as you can come to anathema

01:04:43

And now get there. I mean, it's just to say god is somehow limited by human behavior

01:04:49

Jesus healed the man born blind in john chapter 9 and that guy didn't even know who jesus was

01:04:55

He healed he healed Uh 10 lepers nine of which had no faith So the faith didn't matter for those cases.

01:05:02

What did it matter in this case? It was that he went into his hometown And it had to do with there that that's the issue that was going on there

01:05:10

Right, and he didn't do any miracles there because of that, but it wasn't that he wasn't capable

01:05:16

Yeah, he's the creator of the universe he can do whatever he wants to do You know, and if you look at that I'm, just gonna go ahead brother

01:05:26

Jesus wants us to have faith in him. He really wants us to have strong faith in him That's different than just strong faith

01:05:35

Because even though it sounds the same The word of faith version of faith tends to be all about inwardly.

01:05:41

I got to develop this I've got to do all these sort of exercises to get really good faith and when I get Enough of that faith then god will start doing the things that he wants to do

01:05:50

And I think what you really see jesus doing is is demonstrating just put all your faith on me

01:05:56

Don't worry about yourself put all that faith on me And when he was scolding them, it wasn't because they didn't have enough faith in themselves

01:06:03

It was because they weren't trusting him enough. They weren't trusting the faith Uh that they should have had based on what they had already seen him do

01:06:12

You know, one of the biggest dangers is is having uh bible verses out of context

01:06:17

Yes, and if you go to matthew, uh, 1352 and start there When jesus had finished his parables, he went to nazareth, by the way

01:06:26

He came to his hometown and began teaching them in the synagogues in their synagogues So that they were astonished.

01:06:32

The first thing is they were astonished by his by his teaching his preaching and they said Where did this man get this wisdom and these miraculous powers?

01:06:42

And then he said Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not his mother called mary and his brothers james and joseph and simon and judas and by the way

01:06:53

Though his own family rejected him for a time Because they thought he was crazy

01:06:59

Because they didn't want to accept him as as the messiah And it says in verse 56 and his sisters

01:07:06

Are not they with us? Where did this man get these things? They were offended at him because of his proclamation of truth and they took offense at him verse 57

01:07:16

And jesus said to them a prophet is not worth Without honor except in his hometown and in his own household his own family

01:07:26

And he did not do many miracles because of their unbelief. He didn't he it's not they couldn't

01:07:32

Do miracles, but he didn't do miracles see context matters, right? It's not that he was held back and some cosmic power greater than jesus

01:07:40

Was saying oh, no, you can't do it. And that's the will of a man But it was because they were offended and they hated jesus.

01:07:47

They hated the message They hated what was being done because they were familiar with jesus And he would not do the miracles.

01:07:56

Okay So another thing that is you you mentioned taking things out of context But here's here michael ends up saying you have to argue with the scriptures not with me.

01:08:04

Okay, so let's examine that We just gave some scriptures right Justin you gave you know, the blind man being healed.

01:08:14

I gave the nine, uh, You know the nine unbelieving Lepers being healed and what do you see you see that faith had nothing to do with their healing

01:08:24

Okay, and and this is the thing so you're saying well the arguments with the scriptures I agree the problem is

01:08:31

You either have to accept contradictions in the bible if you're just going to read it that way Or you got to deal with the fact that we have context

01:08:40

And yes, you know, we're going to read the scriptures and see what it what it says But sometimes we're not to take things in the most literal sense

01:08:51

That we do this all the time in the english language Okay, I mean Mike sockwell's here right now.

01:08:58

Now if I said that he's so hungry. He can eat a cow Well, justin you believe he can actually eat a cow

01:09:03

But most of us would think he really can eat a cow those of us who haven't seen him eat right, but I'm, just glad he's still here not attacking my refrigerator.

01:09:14

He's he's he's probably playing a midnight snack while i'm sleeping But but the reality we say things

01:09:20

That context is going to matter If you're going to end up with this saying that well because this verse is saying that Then it means that Somehow god is limited

01:09:33

Now think about what you're saying then What you're saying is god is limited by human behavior

01:09:40

Can you support that with any other scripture? That would actually be against like every scripture

01:09:48

So so you have to realize okay, maybe the way you're interpreting that is

01:09:53

Different and we look at the context. That's that's how we end up doing that Okay So he so he's saying here my point of bringing that scripture

01:10:03

Is your point? uh that Why isn't everybody? Being healed if what if a person

01:10:11

Has the gift of healing the reason why is because some people Will be healed be won't be healed because of their unbelief.

01:10:19

But but the thing is Pick me pick me. Okay, go for it I have precious little patience

01:10:30

With that kind of theology. I have very little patience with that kind of theology That you would lay the blame

01:10:36

For someone being sick being handicapped you would lay the blame For a parent having a sick child at their feet because of their lack of faith

01:10:48

I have very little patience and that is one of the reasons I teach as strongly as I do against word of faith because this is theological poison is

01:10:58

Unbiblical. Let me tell you something if you have been granted the faith to be saved If you are in christ if you are a christian if you have been adopted into the family of god

01:11:08

Through the merits of jesus christ on the cross if you have been granted the faith to be saved

01:11:13

Don't let anybody tell you that you don't have enough faith to be healed because being saved is by far the greatest

01:11:23

Miracle, I have cerebral palsy. I was born with it God could heal me

01:11:30

Right now of my cerebral palsy he could make me run like a deer Right now if he wanted to but even if he did that miracle and it would be

01:11:43

But that miracle would pale in comparison to what god did for me when he saved me from my sins

01:11:49

When he saved me from his own wrath Don't you dare

01:11:56

Tell a Genuine christian someone who has been saved Don't you dare tell that person that the reason they're sick is that they don't have enough faith

01:12:08

Amen. Amen 100 % So Let me get some other things that we we skipped over uh, actually before we do let me um

01:12:18

And bring someone in who's been in the backstage here for a while. Mr. Chris huff of matter of theology podcast, sir

01:12:25

With bringing you in means it's time for some truth bombs. Well I don't know that I can follow up what uh, what what my brother justin peters, uh,

01:12:34

Just stated so so very very correctly. Um How dare anyone?

01:12:41

created by god Shake their finger at the creator, uh, or in blame and say it's because of my unbelief that that god is not healing um

01:12:52

And um, and and look I I think I think this exposes a bigger issue Uh, it's an issue that that drew and I are about to deal with on matter of theology

01:13:01

And it's an issue that dr MacArthur has dealt with that costy hen and anthony would have dealt with that justin peters has dealt with for a number of years

01:13:09

And that is an incredibly low view of god and a high view of man

01:13:16

Specifically god as expressed in the person and work of the holy spirit Um this this this gentleman michael, um brother,

01:13:25

I would sincerely admonish and implore you um to remove demonic influences from your life and get into the word of god in context

01:13:38

Accurately handled because the person that you're listening the people that you are listening to Uh are are leading you astray

01:13:46

And and and and and and this is this is the problem this is the problem with these false healers and these these faith healers is they are

01:13:55

Doing the flip side of what we saw in matthew 12 Um, and and what they're doing is they're assigning the works of the devil to god the holy spirit

01:14:08

And and what we saw in what we see in matthew 12 was the opposite of that and that's the problem

01:14:14

Is that people don't know who god is and these false teachers like todd white Uh, we talked about that.

01:14:20

You guys talked about the generals earlier um They pray on the ignorance of many they pray on uh the emotions of of being sick being disabled and then the ignorance of the scriptures and then

01:14:35

Unfortunately, there are far too many pastors out there who are more concerned with lining their pocketbooks and putting butts in the seats

01:14:42

Than actually discipling and actually protecting and warning and guiding their flock um

01:14:50

It's a huge problem. It's a huge problem. You cannot assign these works to the holy spirit

01:14:57

Um that he would have nothing to do with Um, and and and I go back to something, uh, justin.

01:15:05

I've just posted a video uh, why are charismatic so weird and um Uh semicolon holy spirit activate and if you guys haven't seen that video you need to go watch it

01:15:15

But he brings up a good point, uh that i've heard justin bring up before dr MacArthur bring up before god, even if god was to um, give these miraculous the gift of healing the gift

01:15:28

Of tongues foreign languages again, and that's that's you guys pointed out. That's an act of judgment Even if he were to give those back

01:15:36

Um, he's not going to give them to those who profane his spoken word

01:15:43

He's not going to give them to those who are of their father the devil John 8 44 because all they're doing is

01:15:51

Lying and leading people astray He's not going to do that so It it's it's heartbreaking and it's frustrating and I tell you

01:15:59

I about lost my mind When I saw that gentleman say that jesus could not That sounds an awful lot like stephen furtick.

01:16:07

Yeah, absolutely not. There's nothing god can't do Yeah, yeah, well, there's nothing god can't do outside of his it's out, you know, it's within his nature.

01:16:17

Absolutely And you know one thing i'm sorry This is the thing whenever you do theology you you have to start with the attributes of god.

01:16:26

Amen Okay, this is the mistake so many people make yes is They they look at scripture and they're just going to read something and they're going to ignore the who god is and so when any charismatic word of faith new apostolic reformation person

01:16:41

Says god can't do something based on the unbelief of a person

01:16:48

The problem is you have a wrong god right there You you now have a god that's not the god of scripture because the god of scripture can do anything within his nature

01:16:59

He is omnipotent And there's nothing absolutely nothing we could do to prevent him from doing what is within his nature

01:17:08

Now he he's michael's been saying that we were Misunderstanding him. There's a miscommunication. Um, let me put this up to see what we see what he's saying here uh, and I didn't read this so Uh, you all started the video with people claiming to heal people and then started then stated these people who are

01:17:28

Feeling healed did not even have faith Now it seems you are contradicting yourselves.

01:17:34

I agree with you with the first why the sudden change The point was not the faith of the people

01:17:42

The point was that this this faith healer had was was a fake

01:17:48

He was not even a christian and he had been trained in the evangelical the the faith healing lingo and tactics

01:17:54

And he went out and got the exact same results that todd white gets right That's the point has nothing to do with with the people

01:18:01

And their faith it has to do with the fact that a completely uh, a complete non -christian

01:18:08

Can get the exact same results that todd white does the point so let me know one thing

01:18:14

Go ahead. Justin. Okay. One thing I want to point out here is this Um, yeah, and I want to speak on behalf of justin and myself the other justin.

01:18:21

I don't know that I don't know Andrew and and chris and steve if you have a lot of physical ailments but um

01:18:29

Because of the surgeries that i've been through I have a lot of physical ailments Justin has had them all his life

01:18:36

Okay We act like the the ailments that are in our physical bodies are

01:18:42

Worthless there. Oh that god wants to get rid of him, but he may not be able to get you faith Um, there is no purpose in them and things like this

01:18:50

And andrew if you want to pull up, uh, first peter one six through seven or i'll put it on stage there.

01:18:56

Um My point is this There is not a wasted second in the cosmos of god's creation

01:19:04

Okay, there is not one wasted second in the cosmos of god's creation When he created this world and everything in it when he did these things he did it on purpose

01:19:12

And in first peter and andrew's preached through this Okay, and I I've listened to andrew and if you guys don't listen to andrew preaching out and you're you're you're wasting your life

01:19:23

You may it may not be required for your salvation, but you don't want to test it Okay um

01:19:30

Listen to this first peter one six And this you greatly rejoice even though now for a little while for how for how long is that going to be justin?

01:19:41

Until next week or some faith healer heals you Yeah For a little while, uh, well, we're gonna we're gonna go through trials for the rest of our natural lives on earth

01:19:50

But it's it's but compared to eternity. It's a little while compared to eternity. It's nothing if necessary You have been distressed by various trials not just your your your issue of of Cerebral palsy not just the surgeries you've had to go through not just all those things like that But all kinds of other trials as well

01:20:12

And the the reason god has a purpose in it. It's not a waste of your life

01:20:18

So that the proof of your faith being more precious than gold, which is perishing even though tested by fire

01:20:26

You want to know how how you can you can you can know that you're in the faith? When your faith is tested and it comes out as pure gold

01:20:36

Okay So that it may be resulted to the praise and glory and honor at the revelation of jesus christ you can sit there and over and over and go through the trials and go through the pain and go through the

01:20:47

The sores and the and the stress and the distress of your body physically or go through the trials of life physically and emotionally

01:20:58

And know at the end of it as you come through those trials god brought me through another one God brought me through another one and i'll tell you this for sure

01:21:06

Justin peters i'm going to speak on his behalf again. I'll speak on mine as well When I was in the hospital multiple times for my surgeries

01:21:14

Every single time god brought hundreds of people for me to witness to I was able to share the gospel with every single

01:21:23

Every single one of one of my my doctors and nurses I I mean there would be people coming

01:21:28

I never even met before would come in and just start crying and want to sit down and they needed to hear The truth the word of god

01:21:35

And that would not have happened if god had not privileged me to go through the pain and suffering that I went through Justin peters would never have been given

01:21:43

The platform that he has right now if god had not also blessed him with this thorn in the flesh

01:21:51

So so to sit there and try to act like it's it's It's it's wrong or it's bad or something that we we've got to plead god to get rid of baloney

01:22:01

You know one of the things that I keep thinking about is a is an overall theme that i've noticed in the new apostolic reformation word of faith kind of world

01:22:11

We were just talking earlier about how we don't have the right view of god. We're we're believing in a god that doesn't exist and I I was at a place probably about 10 12 years ago in a small group with some really really wonderful nice people and I remember thinking

01:22:28

You know, it kind of seems like we're too comfortable Taking god and shaping him into the person that we think he should be you know and um

01:22:39

That's that's a big part of the whole progressive movement. You know, god would never do that. God wouldn't be that harsh

01:22:44

God wouldn't send people to hell God wouldn't you know Cut back on people's sexual freedom.

01:22:50

That would be too mean of him You know all these things we we basically are taking our own attributes of what we think is right and wrong We're placing those on god we create a false god and I think the same is true when we have this idea that when we get to to those non -christians out there and they um,

01:23:07

They finally know how good god is because now god's giving them Health and wealth and whatever

01:23:13

Then they'll they'll become christians. It's a combination of really bad decisional theology

01:23:19

Combined with this just really mistaken idea that the reason people don't become christians is because they just don't know how good he is

01:23:25

And how much he wants to help them and how much he loves them. We have to start with this gospel starting point

01:23:31

And one of the things i've really noticed i've talked to a number of people over the last few years because i've helped Brandon kimber do a lot of the research for the american gospel films and there's all these charismatics saying

01:23:43

I had no idea what the gospel was. I thought I was a christian all this time You know, maybe they were maybe they weren't that's not really the issue.

01:23:50

I don't you know We're talking about a large number of people But for some reason they weren't hearing that gospel message of god is holy.

01:23:56

You're not you deserve hell Jesus died in your place this whole idea of god taking your sin upon himself is just not really there

01:24:05

In place you've stuck this idea that here's a bunch of ways that you can get god to do stuff for you

01:24:11

Yeah, either because you want those things for yourself Which is generally increasing our selfishness and our self -righteousness and all the bad qualities of us

01:24:20

I'm a jerk when I get what I want. God knows that that's why he doesn't give me what I want That's good, brother. Yeah, and so I think we just really got to keep going back to that simple gospel message that Jesus didn't come to earth and die on the cross so that you could have all your dreams come true and have

01:24:35

Whatever you want. He's not the genie in the bottle. Amen. Well, are you satisfied with christ?

01:24:41

Yes Are you that's big Are you satisfied? Well, I mean think about the theology of people that say you shouldn't be you

01:24:48

You shouldn't be satisfied. This is one of the things that really We were going to a charismatic church.

01:24:55

We had a like a five -year Church jumping thing where I was trying to figure stuff out. We came back to it when a new pastor came

01:25:03

Because some of my friends said oh this new guy man. He's great. He's great. Well, I quickly found out that he was a student of bill johnson and uh

01:25:12

It wasn't great It was it was it was like wow, this is so bizarre. I can't believe somebody's actually teaching this.

01:25:20

Oh, yeah, it's just um, What what did you just say a second ago that I interrupted satisfied with in god, yes

01:25:28

As we when we we have to ask for more we can and then when we get more we ask for more i'm like That's the dumbest thing i've ever heard

01:25:35

Why would you do that? How is that attractive? It's not even logical. Yeah I don't know.

01:25:42

That was my that was my I had like a 15 year journey in the charismatic world where I was the

01:25:47

I was the husband who kind of went along with his wife who was very emotional and was feeling all this stuff and i'm like Okay, honey,

01:25:53

I trust you, but I don't really feel it I don't I don't I I think what you're going through must be real but I Sounds like a bunch of nonsense and eventually we we got through this by the grace of god.

01:26:07

Amen So this whole thing about wanting more and demanding more of god If you're doing that in any way shape or form anybody who's listening to this, please

01:26:16

Rethink what it means to be a christian. Yeah, there's a holy god And you are not him

01:26:21

Amen, think about the separation and what christ did to bring you back to him

01:26:27

That's where you need to be focusing on not on what you want god to do for you because he hasn't quite done enough yet That's just so bad

01:26:34

One of the core things that we see in this you'll see this started in genesis chapter three Right to focus on us

01:26:41

Versus god and and you see that throughout now What I want to do is we got a bunch of comments and questions that came in We got half an hour.

01:26:48

So I want to do rapid fire. Uh, you know before we do You know, I I gotta ask steve, you know, how do you how well do you sleep at night steve?

01:27:01

I'm Man You know this guy hold on just say this guy can transition into the gospel

01:27:08

Into anything and now he's done this another thing not only transition to the gospel now I can do what?

01:27:14

Is it commercial for a mattress company or something? Oh, yes close steve I i'm trying to see if you know

01:27:20

If you have a my pillow because if you did if you did you could you could sleep better at night you could sleep

01:27:26

As as well as a faith healer can lie So But I had to pick on steve because I knew

01:27:40

I know the rest of you were going to pick up right right away So, uh, this show is sponsored by my pillow, uh great products

01:27:49

I I enjoy them thoroughly, uh, Have many of them here in the house Um sleep on my

01:27:56

I will be I'll be traveling soon to florida I will be taking my my pillow with me because I always do justin you can verify that and so the the the fact is great american -made products help you sleep much better good night's sleep is essential for many people to to be you know, one of the things

01:28:14

I preached just this past week was the fact that Uh, you know, we look at peter and his failure, uh when he denied christ, there's several things he did wrong one

01:28:22

He had a pride problem, uh, he thought he could never do this. He could never deny jesus

01:28:28

Second problem is he didn't prepare when he should have been praying. He was trying to get some sleep And then when he should have been awake or when he should have been sleeping

01:28:37

He was he was trying to stay awake. And what was he doing denying christ? So two aspects one is he spiritually he wasn't prepared the other physically he wasn't prepared

01:28:46

And and that's one of the things when we're not physically and spiritually prepared. We're going to be more susceptible to temptation

01:28:51

Well one way to get a to be prepared physically is to get a good night of sleep And if you go to mypillow .com

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01:29:21

So with with that, let's get to some some questions we have here I i'm going to give one more uh from michael just to wrap up with them with some of the things he was saying

01:29:31

He said he said I don't understand My brothers why you would believe that god who is all powerful and mighty

01:29:39

As we believe would not have people who have the gift of healing I believe he does you seem to think he is smaller than we believe him to be now

01:29:49

Here's the thing with this that that i'm going to say Um, the the issue that I see here is none of us say that god doesn't heal

01:29:58

All of us say god doesn't give the gift of healing now. You ask why well, I answered that earlier

01:30:03

These miracle gifts that we see were there Specifically for the fact of those who are writing scripture after periods of silence.

01:30:13

That's the whole That's the reason that so why doesn't he do it today A very simple reason michael.

01:30:20

No one's writing scripture today. No more scripture And and that's what it comes down to you. You got to look at these things and say, okay

01:30:27

That what was the purpose of it? Well, the purpose has now been fulfilled if the purpose is fulfilled.

01:30:32

Guess what? We don't need that anymore It would be a very small god who would give Gifts of healing to charlatans and hucksters like benny hen and kenneth copeland and todd white that would be a very small god indeed

01:30:45

Yeah, amen. This is the same kind of mentality of don't put god in a box that you hear for people like bill johnson um, and and and so for for the sake of uh of michael i'll say i'll say this that Uh that god is is given us his perfect infallible inerrant and here's the key sufficient word um, it is it is inspired it is absolutely it is absolutely perfect we

01:31:10

What we we don't need that again. I go back to um, god is sovereign and we are not

01:31:17

Um, you know, and and yes, there is he said there's you know, absolutely nowhere in scripture Does it claim that as you claim it absolutely does but for the sake of time we're going to move on But it absolutely does and it absolutely again.

01:31:28

What are you satisfied in? Are you satisfied in christ? Are you satisfied with his word or do you need more? Yeah, and you just hit on it, you know what this really comes down to is the issue of sufficiency

01:31:38

That that's really what it comes down to so let me put this one up from bill. This was much earlier on Uh, it was directed to me, but i'll bring it for all of us.

01:31:45

Um You know, it says andrew rapport Wouldn't you agree? That most heresy comes out of the charismatic church

01:31:56

So I don't Okay Think about this, uh when uh, strange fire was written in 2013

01:32:04

Uh, dr. MacArthur pointed out that there were five there were there were 500 million professing charismatics in the world 500 million that pales in comparison to other false religions that we see so how much of the heresy how how much of the the uh,

01:32:25

How much do we see a a taking of the lord's name in vain Coming from the charismatic church versus other false religions who don't claim to have anything to do with christ, right?

01:32:36

so, um That's how I would answer that question Why is it why is it that the charismatic movement that claims to have the highest view of scripture?

01:32:45

Is also the welcoming home welcoming home of the most brazen heretics who have offered the most

01:32:54

Outlandish false prophecies the most notorious hucksters the most immoral sexually immoral people fraudsters

01:33:02

Greedy, I mean you name it that the charism all of these all of these charlatans and heretics and false prophets

01:33:09

Found find a welcoming home In the charismatic movement, right?

01:33:15

Why is it that the movement with the highest view of the holy spirit? Is home to all of these charlatans and hucksters

01:33:23

And not to say we don't have issues in our theological camp, but you know what when someone shows themselves to be a heretic or uh

01:33:31

Or immoral sexually immoral in our camp, you know what? We deal with it. Yeah, we have something called church discipline.

01:33:38

That's unheard of in the charismatic movement So justin, I I can't remember the number with all the prophecies

01:33:45

Uh, and there and there were many many prophets who made prophecies uh that trump

01:33:50

Or for the elections, uh, and and many of them chose trump as being re -elected how many of those prophecies were right?

01:33:59

Zero. Oh, okay. Yeah literally 100 Yeah, 100 of the 100 of the prophets 100 of them prophesied that trump would serve a second consecutive term

01:34:13

So they were 100 wrong uh Is it I mean

01:34:18

They literally could not have been more wrong if they had tried None of them got the election right and they had a 50 50 shot at getting right

01:34:29

You know, I mean a magic eight ball has more prophetic power than all of these prophets combined now you guys will be happy to know however that I i've received a phone call from a from a lady in florida and she uh ironically, she thanked me for My teaching and calling out benny hen and joel osing and others and she said but there are two prophets that are the real deal

01:34:51

And I just know they're real and yeah, so who's that and she said robin bullock and kat kirk

01:34:58

I just did a video on them. It came up. It's just it's got 10 000 views since I put it up 24 hours ago

01:35:04

It's amazing how bad those guys are. Oh, look y 'all y 'all get a kick out of this. She tells me okay this woman

01:35:10

This woman goes to heaven shuttles back and i'm not talking about kat kirk. Well, she does too but the lady that Goes to heaven daily

01:35:18

And she told me that any day now, um any day now donald trump's going to be reinstated as president and biden

01:35:26

Get this y 'all sitting down Joe biden is in the freezer.

01:35:32

That's what she told me She said joe biden is in the freezer. I said I said well, he's in the what?

01:35:37

She said he's in the freezer. I said he's in the freezer somebody let him out. Yeah No, joe biden is dead guys, he's dead that from that movie every time you see joe biden on the news

01:35:52

It is it's a man in a joe biden suit and most of the time it's barack obama

01:35:58

Barack obama comes out wearing a joe biden suit That's who you're seeing, you know, I believe it.

01:36:03

Okay, i'm sold that woman's a prophet just I think you have the topic for your next wire charismatic so weird

01:36:11

Yeah, you know in all seriousness though if you think about this What is the byproduct or the end product of this and the end product is darren brown?

01:36:20

I I just pulled up a video and and I don't want to show the video but I actually pulled up a video that I Just want to I just want to show you the screenshot that I got of it

01:36:29

Is uh, and just take us just a second but As I pull this up Maybe you can see that Your brain on religion and this is him exposing if you watch the video it's three minutes long he's exposing the the the fake

01:36:45

Uh how the fake foot thing is done the leg extension deal That's all he's doing is exposing how it's done but What does it say?

01:36:55

Your brain on religion you see the atheists are using this stuff Absolutely to say hey look

01:37:03

You're so insane that we can We can we can grift off of that and we make it sound like this is what all christianity is

01:37:12

Exactly. And how many million? Charismatics are there? 500 in 2013 that number's probably going up 500 million

01:37:21

What am I guys guys? This is a huge deal Why do you think it is that people are on the side sitting here screaming and yelling?

01:37:28

And cussing by the way, if you're if I catch you cussing on on the side you're gone

01:37:33

But why do you think people are sitting there screaming yelling and cussing about us doing this show and talking about exposing this?

01:37:40

Because they don't want this to be exposed I started to say that on my channel

01:37:47

The the messed up church youtube channel. I I i'm trying to grab people And say hey look at this look at this look at this because i'm just a guy in my basement

01:37:56

I don't have any funding or anything. So I make videos that use humor very fast -paced a lot of quick cuts

01:38:02

A lot of things that people kind of didn't expect to see because I want them to be confronted with the false teaching

01:38:09

And then i'm really really harsh against those false teachers. I don't I don't play games with them and say well you know, maybe they meant well and one of the there's like a category of comments that i've gotten that really means a lot to me and it's from people who are saying something like I either was about to or I Gave up on christianity because of this stuff.

01:38:31

But now that I see what you're doing on your channel I have a little bit of faith again

01:38:36

That maybe maybe the this whole thing is actually true and maybe jesus really is god and maybe

01:38:41

I can go back to church Maybe I can start reading my bible. They the the world out there They know this stuff is false to a large extent and We need to be as christians as kind as we can to individuals but we need to confront this stuff and say

01:38:59

You know, this has been going on for too long. We've been saying, you know Theology doesn't matter as long as you love jesus blah blah blah blah blah

01:39:07

Amen, let's just stop it. Everybody. Let's let's talk about some really hard things and expect that people have the capability of thinking for themselves

01:39:16

And actually going through the process of questioning things and maybe being a little bit skeptical

01:39:22

It's not going to kill their faith Actually what kills their faith is when you treat everything like a cult does where you just say just believe everything just trust us

01:39:29

Completely buy into whatever anybody says because otherwise you might lose your faith. That's actually how you lose your faith.

01:39:36

Yeah Maybe just could give an example of this. I'll give an example of this and this is from kevin

01:39:42

He says god used justin peter's sermon on hearing the voice of god to get me out of a shallow charismatic church

01:39:49

God is good that that's how it works Now, let me I want to do rapid fire for these justin

01:39:55

Just because there's some good questions We want to get to here and I want to try and get to all of them.

01:40:01

I'm going to throw this one to justin peters um Jason Asked this does god speak audibly to people today?

01:40:09

And where is the scriptural reference? justin Okay. No, he does not speak audibly to people today.

01:40:17

God speaks to us in his word. Um There's so much get a book entitled god doesn't whisper by jim osmond god doesn't whisper by jim osmond

01:40:28

It leaves no rock unturned. There you go. There it is right there. Yeah, it will answer all of your questions

01:40:34

Yes, god speaks to us in the scripture if if god was speaking today outside of scripture, then whatever he says

01:40:42

Should be just as authoritative as any verse of scripture because what makes scripture authoritative is not that it's

01:40:48

Bound in this nice little leather cover with gilded pages and a rib in the marketplace That's not what makes it authoritative.

01:40:54

What makes it authoritative? Is that it's the words of god? That's what makes it authoritative And so if god is still speaking outside of scripture, we have an open canon of scripture today, right?

01:41:05

And um I'll say this too Why is it that if hearing the voice of god is such a vitally important part of the christian life

01:41:12

Why is it that neither old nor new testament gives us any help any guidance not a single syllable?

01:41:20

Of how to hear the voice of god. Yeah, we've got doctrine. We've got theology. We've got the account of the life and ministry and teaching and crucifixion resurrection of jesus qualifications for elder conflict resolution

01:41:35

Resolution eschatology All this stuff all throughout the scriptures. Yeah Nothing about how to hear the voice of god, you know and to piggyback on what justin just said

01:41:47

I'm going to ask a reverse question Why is it that scripture is not sufficient? Yes So why is it not enough?

01:41:55

So just not enough Justin if we wanted to hear I mean if we if we want to hear from god

01:42:02

Where do we go you're gonna make me say my quote If you want to hear god speak to you

01:42:10

Read your bible if you want to hear god speak to you audibly read it out loud. Amen 100 guarantee you will hear

01:42:19

All right. Let me put this up. Darren had said this earlier while I agree

01:42:26

That no one has the quote gift of healing unquote I do not agree that god doesn't use people to heal god uses means to accomplish his purposes

01:42:36

One of those means is the prayer of his people and I certainly do not want to discourage people from praying for the miraculous healing

01:42:45

Darren and and I think I we mentioned it earlier at least I know I did that Yeah, people god can use people to to heal through prayer but he did but that's different than People having a gift of healing.

01:42:58

Yeah, that's that's not the gift, right? It is it is important for us to to just I wanted to bring that up because it is important for us to note

01:43:05

We should still be praying for healing Sure that god would do that But one of the things I always do when people ask me, you know, can you can you pray?

01:43:12

They want to get healed for something. I always say If it's your lord your will lord.

01:43:18

Yeah this person because I don't know what the lord is uh, but when we expect

01:43:24

Healing to be the norm that we like we have to be healthy That goes contrary.

01:43:31

Well, actually to everything first peter talks about and many other books of the bible that talk about suffering Yeah, well, you see whatever you do, whatever you do lord

01:43:38

Don't let me go to heaven because I mean i'm I know I know it's my time to die But whatever you do, you know, everybody pray that that god's will isn't done.

01:43:45

I don't go to heaven. Yeah, we wouldn't patch Yeah We wouldn't do that at all

01:43:54

Steve you were going to start to say something. No, actually chris no I mean, but we and and darren darren, uh, brother

01:44:00

We love you men. Um, and and and if if I could actually stop and ask everyone to be praying for darren

01:44:06

He's been dealing with some With some pretty heavy things. He got a concussion and and he's been having some

01:44:11

Some some stuff going on with his brain and neurological system. So, uh, brother First of all, I just want you to know that i've been praying for you

01:44:17

Uh second of all, um, absolutely you pray for healing um, and you know james speaks to uh, if if if someone is sick to gather the elders around them to Anoint them with oil to pray for them to to to earnestly, uh beseech the lord to to heal them.

01:44:33

Absolutely do that No one's saying don't do that And and I think that's something you guys said before I jumped on is is we all and I affirm this as well

01:44:41

I am a cessationist also Um that god does heal it. Absolutely. He absolutely heals

01:44:46

He uses people to heal every time think about this you go to the doctor You're sick. You go to the doctor you get medicine.

01:44:52

He treats you he or she treats you. Um, so Anymore chris say again not anymore now.

01:45:00

Now they say are you vaccinated? Oh, you're not you can see over here Okay We only treat the vaccinated right

01:45:07

All right, one thing too is is let me throw this in because I mean just i'll real fast um, which is my term for so anyway, but What I what

01:45:17

I do want to say is is that god heals? Through the use of doctors in many ways because I know that if I my doctor hadn't done surgery on me

01:45:25

I'd have died Okay, and that'd been fine. I went to heaven but I have had several doctors and god healed me through those doctors and that means he does use means the secondary cause the secondary means and We wouldn't deny that so so maybe your doctor, you know

01:45:43

Works just trying to encourage us not to forget. That's what to be all -sided in it. Yeah.

01:45:48

Yeah So zach zach said this, uh, how would you guys answer this acts two peter says

01:45:54

In the last days all of these gifts will be present If we are still in the last days then on that on what basis would you say?

01:46:05

That uh, they have ceased if peter says they will continue through the last days who wants to tackle that one

01:46:15

Okay, then I will i'm looking it up. Oh, yeah So so I I would say the issue is you know, the the way we're using last days

01:46:23

Okay is is two different ways there Okay, because you know, yes, we're at the end times, but we're not really at the end end times

01:46:31

The fact is is what do we end up seeing in other passages of scripture? That these very miracles and signs

01:46:39

Would be used to deceive even if possible the elect So when you say well just because there were signs in the first century there had to be signs today

01:46:51

Again, I would get to why were there signs? What was the purpose of the signs and then the the other thing that I would end up going to is say well

01:47:00

We end up seeing very clearly that There you know There are signs and miracles that were going to be done

01:47:08

And and they're going to be used to deceive people which is what we see miracles being used how they're being used today

01:47:14

Now what you end up seeing in in peter's uh sermon there in acts chapter two

01:47:19

He's he's using the things that were happening at their time to say that this is to vindicate

01:47:25

What was told of you in the old testament? Will there be miracles? In those final days well for for those of us that are you know, pre -millennial

01:47:34

Uh pre -tribulational we're going to hold to the fact that yeah, there's going to be there's going to be two witnesses They're going to come on the scene doing miracles right

01:47:42

They're they're going to be there But it doesn't mean that At the beginning in the end means they have to be all the way throughout

01:47:47

Why will there be miracles then for the same reason there were miracles every other time in history?

01:47:53

There's a period of silence Some people are saying thus says the lord. How do you prove it? miracles accompany them for vindication

01:48:02

Okay, and another thing is real fast is is this passage in 22? He actually points out the fact that he's talking about the fact that jesus of nazareth

01:48:12

Was the one that was performing all these miracles and that you you who were there at the time?

01:48:18

Saw the whole entire all the lights go black You saw the the earth split you saw all the things going on Now my question for the person that wrote wrote the the question on here

01:48:31

Were you there? No you see the point is is Some of that was actually talking about what was going on at that moment and and peter used that Truth to say men of israel.

01:48:46

You've denied your messiah your savior the one that came And this is the evidence

01:48:53

Okay, just I think you were going to say son I was just going to say that that peter's quotation of joel's prophecy

01:49:01

Is that's just a partial fulfillment. It was partially fulfilled at the day of pentecost not completely fulfilled

01:49:07

Because in that same prophecy it says the sun will be turned to darkness the moon into blood

01:49:13

Uh, and there will be you know, great signs and the signs on earth below blood fire and vapor of smoke We've not seen that we've not seen the sun darkened and the moon turned to blood yet Yeah We all like so it's just a uh pentecost was a partial fulfillment of joel's prophecy

01:49:30

All right. We got one more from from mike smith here. He says should the christians of today continue asking god for healing and miracles with Expectations that he will do it

01:49:44

And I think we kind of addressed the first thing earlier, yes, we should expect god, you know, we do pray for god to heal today but You guys think we should be

01:49:53

We should be continuing to ask with the expectation That he'll do it. This is a teaching that's really prominent in most charismatic circles that god is waiting for you to do certain things and one of those things is to be expectant you've got to have a

01:50:10

An era an aura of expectancy you have to muster up all this expectancy

01:50:15

And so if you don't expect enough god's going to say well, you know, I was about to heal you completely

01:50:22

But you only had 93 expectancy. I was looking for 97 So we just say god your will be done

01:50:30

That's the that's the foundation of everything god your will be done You want to if you want to strike me dead god your will be done.

01:50:38

You are god. I am not yeah, I I think back to daniel 3 shadrach meshach and bednego and when when

01:50:44

When they were about to be thrown into the to the furnace I mean that they prayed for the lord to deliver them. But what what did what else did they say?

01:50:51

But even if he doesn't Yep. Yep, even if he doesn't so yes pray.

01:50:56

Yes. Yes. Yes approach the throne of grace Yes, beg for the lord to to do that if there's healing needed

01:51:02

But even if he doesn't I go back to the question I asked earlier earlier. Are you satisfied with christ?

01:51:08

Are you satisfied? If he says in his perfect sovereignty in his will Which if you're a child of god is the purpose of this is to conform you more and more into the image of christ

01:51:19

Are you not just okay with that, but will you find rest and joy and hope in that?

01:51:25

You know, so so We we want when we pray right we should be expecting

01:51:32

Right that that god can do something not necessarily that he will but we should expect that Um, you know justin you'll remember this.

01:51:41

We're in the philippines You have some lost Lost strength in your in your one arm.

01:51:46

You couldn't you couldn't pick yourself up on on your crutches, right? We're sitting on the plane on our way back home prayed for you

01:51:55

Prayed, you know asking if it's god's will to heal you now You were on your way home.

01:52:01

You canceled a bunch of appointments expecting to have to go for an mri again We had you had an mri while in the philippines by god's grace

01:52:09

One of the folks there was a doctor and had connections with the hospital and got you in They didn't charge you and did an mri and you were able to explain that You know to your doctor back home when you were planning to go home and and you canceled your appointments

01:52:22

You were ready. You were going to have to get ready for surgery Yeah, and all of a sudden I had surgery scheduled for uh in in two weeks

01:52:29

I I got home went to sent the mri results to my doctor And I had two badly badly bulging discs that uh

01:52:38

Pressing on the nerve and I lost use of my right arm And I was scheduled for surgery.

01:52:44

In fact, I remember it was going to be august 8th and um about two weeks before surgery was scheduled

01:52:51

I was sitting at the table in our kitchen and kathy had made me some grits or something and I was eating grits and I all of a sudden

01:52:59

I realized I could I had use of my right arm. I had strength in it and i'm

01:53:04

Putting my arm on the table and i'm pressing on the table and I said dear I said look at this and uh

01:53:12

I I My arm worked again. And so, uh, I called the doctor. I said look,

01:53:17

I don't know how to explain this I said but my arm's working. He said well, come on in and let's take a look.

01:53:23

So he you know, we went in and he Went into his uh office and and he did me a did a strength test, you know, he had me push

01:53:32

Push against his arm, you know with my right arm, which I could do And I could push

01:53:37

I could pull I could do everything I needed to do and he said well If you don't have any symptoms, we're not going to do surgery.

01:53:43

Yeah, and i'm like praise the lord Amen. Yeah The fact that the fact that I prayed for you that doesn't make that doesn't mean that I have the gift of healing

01:53:53

It just means I prayed and god saw fit to heal you And and that's that's it.

01:53:59

I mean, it's not that i'm the world's greatest faith healer because I healed justin peters I mean then people are going to ask but why didn't you heal his his legs so he can walk?

01:54:07

Well, have you heard of the justin I win campaign? I've been doing you're chasing me like you wouldn't believe if he could run

01:54:13

I mean Unfortunately when he gets to heaven, he will be glorified and maybe he won't want to chase me and beat me up For the justice steve if you haven't

01:54:24

You know, you you should go to let me give you a website Just go to justin. I win .com steve in case you haven't been there

01:54:30

And there's a video there to give you the history and and just just realize that we were doing that video

01:54:35

Uh for the website and and justin didn't know anything about it So at the end of the video you get to see the look on his face when he realizes

01:54:43

We actually created a website called just that I win .com I think you guys are way too silly.

01:54:49

I just want to say It's out of love And you will see just about how silly we are

01:54:56

All right. Let me wrap up with two more some comments. We had here chris honholtz had said this earlier interesting no apostle prophet, etc ever

01:55:06

Had to be taught how to do sign miracles Hashtag things that make you go home you know

01:55:14

This is a you know, there's you know Bill johnson has his school of miracles school of miracles.

01:55:20

Yeah, i was gonna say that's that closed during covet No way, uh, he healed everybody at covet

01:55:28

And what's his name? Uh, kenneth copeland said he blew it away. So it's all gone twice twice

01:55:35

I mean, you know, I mean that's that's proof right there Well, you know what? The only thing that got blown away by by kenneth copeland's covet blown covet away

01:55:43

Was my youtube channel when they when they didn't like that I put that video up of kenneth copeland blowing it away and then the video of him saying

01:55:49

I have a lot of respect for Covet it's killing a lot of people they took the video down and and then said we're blocking you for a couple weeks

01:55:57

Have y 'all seen the the video that that steve did on steve? What was the title of it with the kenneth copeland the guy in the wheelchair?

01:56:04

What did you name that? Oh, yeah Yeah. Oh, was that you that today? I because I I actually i've been

01:56:10

I haven't gotten to it yet But I I do have a plan of what I want to do with that I want to hear the story behind that I was actually talking to justin

01:56:17

He was telling me about he had just been at the copeland conference. I was with him at that event.

01:56:23

Yeah. Yeah, so I don't know if it was when we were on the phone, but it was within that hour I was yeah,

01:56:28

I was just looking. Yeah, we were on the phone. Yeah, and I said I sent you the link. I said justin take a look at this and then

01:56:35

I made it And it was a sunday afternoon, which I don't normally do stuff it's you know church day nap day day of rest

01:56:42

But I said I just I gotta make a video. I gotta do it right now Just give me a couple of hours and I made

01:56:49

I don't know like a 13 minute video. It has I think 600 ,000 views Since last summer

01:56:55

Yeah, but it's it's just a really Ridiculous example of kenneth copeland He just gave a whole talk about you are going to be healed if you follow my you know, whatever his his ideas if you have enough faith and then he goes into the crowd and he heals nobody and then this he lays a hand on this guy and the wheelchair falls over and And they just pick him up back up in the wheelchair.

01:57:20

Yeah So so let me let me just because what I want to do is i'm going to give people a little taste of of some

01:57:25

Of your work, but steve, but uh, just to finish up with michael and this kind of finishes kind of where we started

01:57:31

Michael had said while we agreed together on the many many of these faith healers.

01:57:37

I do believe You you all overreacted and and I say Overcorrected overcorrected.

01:57:44

Sorry. Um Uh, what you end up seeing here is this is really where we started with Right the fact that there will be some who hold to these positions

01:57:55

And they just can't see They're they're going to see it in someone else. Oh the faith healers.

01:58:00

They're really crazy, but not me I would never do something like that Go back to the democrats go back to that example.

01:58:07

I used uh, and you'll see that so let me let me do this I want to uh, I want to close out i'm going to just play this two minute clip

01:58:14

This was aired, uh in american gospel steve. This is some of your work here

01:58:20

Uh for folks to get a a look at if you haven't seen this in american gospel, but uh, this is where where steve goes through and shows the leg lengthening trick of Todd of todd white and uh

01:58:33

We're just going to end the show with this. Here we go Now we're going to see todd white's clip sped up quite a bit and looped back and forth

01:58:44

Now this is where we can see what's really going on here The leg on our right is supposed to be the short leg and this is the leg which should be miraculously growing but it's not

01:58:53

Look at the leg on our left. That's where all the action is. That's what's actually being manipulated

01:58:59

You can see that todd is actually pivoting or shifting the foot of the so -called long leg so that the heels match

01:59:06

Now he's doing this very slowly over time, but it's painfully obvious when you speed up the clip and what he is doing

01:59:13

Is the most hateful thing you could possibly do for someone men like todd white Preach a gospel that is centered on love.

01:59:21

The problem is it's not biblical love Biblical love confronts sin If we really understand god's love

01:59:36

Then we understand that god's love is a holy love That because god is so loving he must

01:59:44

Simultaneously Reject and hate evil. Well when I saw anyone preaching the real gospel, which is salvation through the cross

01:59:52

I thought that was kind of unloving because they talk about sin Every one of us has broken his laws.

01:59:58

My experience has been Even those that call themselves christians, they will oppose you

02:00:03

They reject a gospel presentation that includes Calling people to repent repent and believe in the gospel i'm not like out here to say you need to i'm not out here to say you need to I think he's choosing not to use the word repent, which is what christians historically have always talked about That is the reason why many people will refuse to become a christian.