July 13, 2023 Show with C. R. Wiley on “The Household & the War for the Cosmos”

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of Founding Father James Wilson, 19th

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this 13th day of July, 2023.

I cannot believe it's already been six years since the last time

I've had today's guests on the program. It was quite a long time ago, six years,

May 29th, 2017, when my guest C .R.

Wiley discussed his book, Man of the House, a handbook for building a shelter that will last in a world that is falling apart.

Well, today's discussion is not too far in a field of that topic.

Today we are going to be discussing C .R. Wiley's new book, The Household and the War for the

Cosmos. And C .R. Wiley is author and today pastors Westminster Presbyterian Church, which is a congregation in the

Presbyterian Church in America, the PCA of Vancouver, Washington. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor C .R.

Wiley. Hey, thanks, Chris. It's great to be with you again. It's hard to believe it's been that long.

I agree. Yeah. And I can even recall when I first met you, which was a longer ago than that.

It probably was the early 90s I met you when I came out to Connecticut, where you were once pastoring and you had a you were either hosting the conference or you were present at the conference.

And Robert Godfrey was one of the speakers and had a debate.

Robert Godfrey had a debate with Peter Lightheart on infant communion.

Were you hosting that debate or were you just attending that? I was just there and hosted that.

Well, tell us about Westminster Presbyterian Church of Vancouver, Washington. Well, it's a it's a really marvelous place to serve.

We're a growing church. We had 70 visitors last Sunday, which is kind of overwhelming.

So we're in a kind of phase of our life where we're growing and building sort of our ability to minister to people, hiring staff and stuff.

But the church is full of just great folks. We've got a number of very large families.

So the median age of the church is about 15 years old because of all the little people that we've got.

And we are a friendly church, but we're also very liturgically,

I guess you'd say, conservative. We serve communion every week.

We, you know, recite the creeds, sing psalms, you know, that's that's kind of the sort of the the the nature of our liturgy.

And anyway, I'm glad to be there with those folks. And is that exclusive psalmody or do you just include them with the hymnody?

We include them. It's not exclusive. OK, well, if anybody lives in Vancouver, Washington or nearby or is visiting there or you have friends, family and loved ones that live in or near Vancouver, Washington, you can find out more about this fine church at solocristo .org,

S -O -L -O -C -H -R -I -S -T -O .org. And let me ask you,

I have always been curious and I'm not sure anybody has ever told me, what's the difference between solo

Christo and solus Christus? That's a great question.

If I was a Latinist, I'd be able to give you. I've heard it had something to do with the tents or something like that, but yeah, that sounds right.

But I hope some folks hearing this program today will pop by and pay you a visit.

Well, we are living in a day and age. That is increasingly frightening, and I know that conservatives and more specifically

Christians have said that probably for millennia, but it seems that the frightening aspect of society and its relationship to the family or the household is just becoming more and more bizarre.

In addition to being frightening, things are developing and being held to as being the orthodoxy of society that even liberals never would have dreamed would be condoned and celebrated as they are today.

What was the driving force behind your writing, The Household and the War for the Cosmos, recovering a

Christian vision for the family? Well, I think you've touched on it. I think the sexual revolution has proceeded and been victorious, largely speaking, with regard to the secular society that we find ourselves in.

We're seeing the last vestiges of Christian conviction fall away from sort of the broad sort of ethos of our culture, and it's forcing churches to sort of count the cost when it comes to faithfulness to scripture and even to sanity.

And so there's a kind of way in which this is playing out, I think, in a disappointing way, even among evangelical

Christians. But at the same time, we see kind of wheat and tares growing together.

There's a lot of things, there are a number of things that I'm really very encouraged about. I think faithful churches in many parts of the country are actually growing at a remarkable rate at the moment because of the way things are being are kind of sorting out.

And I just noted here the other day that I've never seen a period in my ministry where young men are more open to the gospel and direct, frank conversations about their own lives.

So it's a as a as you know, the opening, I think of what was it that I can't remember the name of the book,

Great Expectations, perhaps at the best of times, the worst of times is kind of what we find ourselves in.

Was that the tale of two cities? That's a tale of two cities. That's right. And where do you trace how far back do you trace the problem?

I know that some folks who talk about the erosion of the family when they're coming from a conservative and Christian viewpoint, they trace it back to Thomas E.

Dewey and the Marxist ideology that he introduced into the public school system.

But where do you trace the issue back? Well, he's certainly part of the story, but I wouldn't say he's the point of origin at all.

I think. You know, you can kind of look at it in two ways as as as believers, we know that the household has always been in the in the target sites of Satan.

And so we can trace it all the way back to the to the garden. But if we're looking at something more recent,

I think, you know, in the 19th century was particularly awful in this respect.

There were there was there was something that developed. In sort of the aftermath of the

Enlightenment, where it became evident to many people that you couldn't justify.

The authority of reason or even its capacity to know the truth without God, so rather than.

You know, sort of be the sort of the revelation that precipitated a recovery of the

Christian faith as a cultural force, people just took that and went further than any any of the sort of the

Enlightenment philosophes would have anticipated. So people like Nietzsche, Darwin, obviously

Marx, they developed what they refer to what has been referred to as the hermeneutic of suspicion, which is essentially a we've lost faith in the power of reason and we've retreated into this objective and into sort of the sort of the sophistry that we saw addressed by Plato in Athens, where, you know, might makes right man is a measure of all things, all that kind of stuff.

And the way things get sorted out in a world like that is just who's got the power.

So it all becomes power dynamics. And we even lose faith in the capacity of language to convey the truth.

Now, language is simply a tool that you use to get your way. So that's why, you know, we have this proliferation of of interest groups who suspect that when we speak to them and say that what they're doing is wrong, that we're just simply guilty of hate speech and that we're just trying to kill them.

You know, that's that's what they that's how they interpret it rather than, you know, speaking the truth and love and trying to demonstrate our our desire to help them leave a destructive way of living.

So anyway, that's that's I think the 19th century is particularly bad, but but you can see, you know, even the roots of this going back into the

Enlightenment, you know, people like Voltaire and so forth. But it's a it's a long story.

And I think we're coming to the end of a particular episode or phase of it. And what is emerging or opening up before us is really,

I think. What we're kind of been describing is sort of a parting of the ways and we're going to see how things play out.

And I'm actually very hopeful for the church. I think that if we recover our apostolic confidence and proclaim the gospel and understand that the law of God is something that is intended to be a sort of a framework within which we build a healthy society, then, you know, the future is bright for the church.

But there's going to be a long period of sorting out and there's going to be a lot of misery and suffering and just insanity like we're seeing all around us at the same time.

What exactly did you mean in your title or what did you intend by in your title, the war for the cosmos?

Yeah, well, the word cosmos is in our contemporary use a word that we use for outer space.

So when we think about the cosmos, we're thinking about stars and galaxies and so forth. But it's actually the word in the in the

New Testament, the Greek word that's translated into the word world very often. And when we think of a world, we think of just a place, you know, like I live on planet

Earth or the environment in which I live. But in the first century, the word conveyed a bigger meaning, and that was the order of things at the largest level.

So the cosmos was an order. And so when, you know, the

Apostle Paul spoke of the world, he was talking about the world that God made, the order that God made or the mess that's been made of it.

And so there's a sense in which the word is, depending on the context, either has a positive or a negative connotation.

So like when we say for God so loved the world, it would set us with that way it reads is for God so loved the cosmos that he gave his only begotten son.

Well, that's the world that God made. God is the order that God made. But when we're told that that we shouldn't love the world or anything in the world, that's the mess we've made of it.

So that's like the order that we can say is the kingdom of darkness. Well, as your subtitle describes the book,

Recovering a Christian Vision for the Family, what is, in summary, your

Christian vision for the family? Well, the way that I approach the matter in my book is what

I think is actually implied in Scripture throughout Scripture, and that is the household is a microcosm.

So when you hear the term microcosm, you do hear the word cosmos. Cosm is cosmos.

So it's an order. It's a small order that reflects the larger order. So the larger order, as we as Christians understand, is

Christ is the head and the church is the body and that we are on our way to a beautiful future, kind of the

Cosmos 2 .0, in which the church, as the bride of Christ, enjoys all of the glory and blessings that have been secured for her because of the victory of Christ.

That's, of course, the great wedding feast of the Lamb. And we see the happy ending in the book of Revelation where this all comes to pass.

So in the meantime, the church is united to Christ and Christ is the head, the husband, the church is the bride, the body, and that, we see the

Apostle Paul says, is the model for a household order. So a husband is to love his wife as Christ loves the church.

A wife is to respect her husband and submit to him like the church submits to Christ.

So the microcosm reflects the macrocosm. And when a household is ordered well, it's a little bit of heaven on earth.

Obviously, we're sinners. Obviously, we fall short. But when it's done right, it's a beautiful picture of the end of the world.

And what do you see in your experience, not only just as an American citizen now who has lived on both coasts, first the east and now the west?

What do you see is not only an average citizen and a Christian, but as a pastor, are things that you believe are areas where the church has failed in regard to the maintenance of households and how much of the world's ideology, philosophies and worldview have many

Christian families perhaps unconsciously adopted, in your opinion?

Oh, yeah, that's a very significant matter. I think that we've more or less conformed to a fallen understanding of the way marriage is to be understood.

For unbelievers, if they even entertain marriage, they do so as a kind of lifestyle choice that maybe they have a preference for.

And that lifestyle choice is supposed to be fulfilling at a personal level.

But the marriage itself doesn't speak to any larger concern than the interest of the two people who get married.

So that's why, you know, with no fault divorce, for example, if you're not happy anymore in your marriage, then its purpose is no longer being served because it's all about the couple.

It's all about their felt needs and their self -understanding of what makes them happy at any given time.

We know, though, of course, that in any relationship, there are going to be good times and bad times, and there are going to be times where we feel unhappy with the way things are.

But if we have a sense that the institution that we belong to has a larger purpose, we can kind of, you know, steel ourselves and press through the difficulty.

So, for example, let's say you're in the army and you're fighting a just war. There are going to be lots of periods in the course of that conflict where you're just not very happy, but you do what you need to do in order to serve the interests that are being served by that institution, the military.

And so you do what you need to do to soldier on, so to speak. And I think that's the side of things that we just have lost largely in the culture that we find ourselves in.

But it's worked itself into the church. And generally speaking, when pastors talk about marriage, most of them want marriages to succeed, of course, and most of them want people to stick together.

But they conceive of the institution in the very way that is helping to sort of undermine it, you know, because of the secular and the larger sort of social assumptions that prevail in our society.

People just don't get it, even in the church anymore, you know, when it comes to what is this supposed to be about?

Well, we are going to our first commercial break. If you have a question for C .R.

Wiley on his book, The Household and the War for the Cosmos, Recovering a

Christian Vision for the Family, send it to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

That's C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter, a matter involving your own family, a matter involving families within the congregation where you're a member, or your pastor's family, or whatever the case may be where you would be compelled to remain anonymous.

We will obviously honor that request. But if it's a general question, please give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.

Don't go away. We're going to be right back with C .R. Wiley after these messages from our sponsors.

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That's royaldiadem .com. Mention Chris Arns and Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Uh, we are now back, uh, with our discussion with C .R.

Wiley and, uh, C .R. Wiley has, uh, written a new book, uh,

The Household and the Cosmos, or I'm sorry, The Household and the War for the

Cosmos, and the subtitle is Recovering a Christian Vision for the

Family. I want to read an excerpt from Nancy Piercy's foreword, uh, to this book.

Today, the true revolutionaries are not feminists, homosexual activists, or other progressives, but those who are seeking to halt any further erosion of the family and even reverse the process, families who are intentionally working to restore at least some of the traditional functions of the household.

And, uh, we have, uh, Brother Wiley, uh, we have a question from an anonymous listener that has come in and the anonymous listener says, as a pastor and as the author of this book, what counsel do you have for families who on one hand are attempting to shelter their children and protect their children from outside influences that have a design and an intention to capture their imaginations and minds and pollute them with false anti -Christian worldviews without at the same time keeping them so isolated and protected that they become incapable of having a conversation as they grow older with those who are in the outside world, making their efforts to evangelizing and discuss their faith almost impossible because they can't even understand what those who are protesting against their faith are saying.

Well, that's a great question. And, um, there are a couple of thoughts that come to mind for me on that.

So I've got three grown children and they are all married and doing well.

So, um, they're believers and have children of their own.

And I'm pleased, of course, that God has blessed me this way and blessed them. But in terms of my own experience with them, one of the things that I did throughout the course of the, their, you know, childhoods is engage with them in pretty serious conversations about what's going on in the world in an age appropriate way at the right time.

But it required of me a pretty, I think, um, good education and, uh, some real personal experience that I could draw on to help them understand what was going on.

And then the other side of it, of course, is to present to them, uh, in the very way the family is ordered and is working.

And in other ways through literature, or obviously worship at church and scripture, a beautiful vision that just very strikingly contrasts with what they see going on all around them in the world.

I think there's a kind of naivete that, uh, is unavoidable when you're talking to say, second and third generation

Christians, because, um, you know, they don't have direct experience with the things that they're told are evil, but those of us who, uh, witness those things firsthand, experience those things firsthand, uh, you know, we do the best we can to warn them.

But, uh, we have to kind of reconcile ourself to the fact that you can't, you can't inherit your, your parents' experiences.

So there has to be at least a measure of freedom that the children have to, um, think and to, and to ask questions and to, to even, um, you know, challenge, uh, parents when they get a little older and get good answers.

And there are going to be periods of time, of course, where the, where the child is thoughtful and maybe wondering and questioning what he or she's been told, but, uh,

I think by and large, when things are done well, most of the time, a child comes out on the other side of that in a really good spot.

And I'm pleased to say that's been the case with my children. And I've seen that in many other families as well.

So, um, the point of the question is a great question and it's something that I take very seriously, but that's been my approach.

Well, thank you, Anonymous. And if you email me your full name and mailing address, you will win, uh, you will receive absolutely free of charge, a copy of The Household and the

War for the Cosmos, Recovering a Christian Vision for the Family by our guest C .R.

Wiley. And that will be compliments of the publisher, Canon Press, and also compliments of Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com,

who will be shipping that book out to you at no charge to you or to Iron Trump and Zion Radio.

And if you are a first time questioner, please identify yourself that way, because on top of that, you will also receive a free

New American Standard Bible. So, uh, please let us know about that. Uh, we also have

Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania, who says, after exploring your book on the internet,

I have discovered that it is published by Canon Press. And I was wondering if you share the passion for classical

Christian education that seems to be championed by the ministries affiliated with that publisher.

Well, I am on the board of New St. Andrews College. Um, I'm also on the board of the Academy of Philosophy and Letters, which, uh, isn't explicitly committed to classical education, but is very sympathetic to it.

Uh, so yes, I, I do, uh, believe that a good education includes a good, uh, and thorough introduction to the

Western tradition. Um, if I were in a different part of the world, maybe I would include other works as well, but that doesn't mean that, um, we put those things on the same level as scripture or on the teachings, uh, that we've received from sound teachers over the centuries.

It just means that, uh, there are, are things that even pagan people know that are worth knowing and, uh, and their, their insights aren't complete, but they're still useful to a degree.

So for example, when we think about say the Apostle Paul, the Apostle Paul was, uh, uh, thoroughly acquainted with Stoicism.

Uh, we know that that's the case because he could quote Stoics off the top of his head.

He did so when he was in Athens, we see it in Acts chapter 17. So he engages, uh, in an apologetic with, uh,

Epicurean and Stoic philosophers knowing, uh, very well that they reject, uh, any possibility of an afterlife.

And he, uh, looks for points of contact in his conversation with them, things that, that he could agree with them about, but he doesn't hold back at the end.

He tells them that, uh, that the Lord Jesus had been raised from the dead.

And that was an indication that he was going to judge the world and that they needed to get, uh, on good terms with him.

And that's the point at which they were offended. They weren't offended by anything he said prior to that. Contrary to what maybe people have heard.

And the reason I know that it's because I'm thoroughly acquainted with Stoicism. I've read the Stoics and have a pretty good sort of understanding of the way they thought.

So I'm reading right now, I'm reading Marcus Aurelius's meditations and Aurelius was the emperor, um, uh,

Roman emperor. He learned from actually another Stoic philosopher who was a slave. And that's one of the things that's one of the marvelous ironies.

Uh, he learned from Epictetus. But, um, what he was missing was something that we as Christians know, but he didn't know, or if he had heard about it, he didn't believe it.

And that is the resurrection. So if you don't, if you don't factor the resurrection into your thinking, when you're trying to understand the world, you're going to get some things wrong.

That's just a given, but that doesn't mean that everything you think is entirely wrong, there are some things that you can, uh, see, and we can see the apostle

Paul talking about that in Romans chapter one. Uh, there are some things that you can see that are true and, um, you can actually think about them in ways that, and write about them in ways that are helpful.

So, you know, Calvin knew this, uh, other great theologians knew this and that's why they didn't simply, uh, you know, get rid of or burn all of the books that, uh, that we've received from antiquity.

They, they read them and tried to get what they could out of them. Do you have a preference, a personal preference as to a superior model of education for Christian children between a classical

Christian education in a, in an actual school setting or homeschooling?

Well, in my church, uh, we're very committed to homeschooling. Uh, our church families, uh, do, uh, use classical, uh,

Christian, uh, uh, curriculum, but, uh, the children are taught at home.

Um, I know many people who have children who were enrolled in classical Christian schools and they seem to be doing great.

My own kids had a little bit of both. So, um, I'm not, um, an advocate of one over the, at the expense of the other.

Although I do think that it's hard to beat, um, just the, the sort of the, sort of the,

I think the healthy dynamics that can happen in a well, uh, run homeschool environment.

Great. Uh, by the way, Arnie in Perry County, you have also won a free copy of the Household and the War for the

Cosmos, uh, by our guest, C .R. Wiley, and that is compliments of our friends at Kenan Press who have given us a limited number of free copies for listeners who submit questions.

And we also want to thank Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com. We'll be shipping this book out to you.

Uh, one of the things that I have a difficulty with, and I'm sure that most

Christians do, uh, unless they are far more super sanctified than I am, uh, which

I would mean most people, but, but I get so sickened and outraged when

I see things in the media, like just yesterday on the news, I believe it was yesterday, a parade of homosexuals chanting, we're here, we're queer, we're coming for your children and saying that with much exuberant joy and laughter and, uh, just vile, satanic, uh, expressions on their faces.

Uh, the, the, the situation that makes my reaction to that difficult is trying to curb the hateful anger that boils up in me.

Uh, I have to forget, I have to remember, I should say that these people are lost.

And even as vile and grotesque as their ideology may be in that parade, there may be some of God's elect that have not yet, uh, been regenerated and given new hearts.

So how, as a pastor, do you counsel people to curb the fury that boils up in them when you actually have people publicly chanting that they're coming for your children?

And as someone, a conservative commentator recently said, uh, while playing that video, they mean what they say, folks.

Uh, this is not just a hyperbole. Uh, this is not just, uh, done for their own entertainment.

They actually mean what they say. How do you respond to my question there? Yeah, Chris, I thoroughly understand your perspective and I share it.

Um, I lived in Cambridge for goodness sake, right between Harvard and MIT for about a decade and was actually at Harvard Divinity School for a period of time.

I remember my, during those days when I was at Harvard Divinity School, uh, I remember, uh, one semester

I was walking down the hall and you know, how you always have in different educational institutions in the first few days of school, all the clubs, uh, that, uh, want to sign you up to, to, you know, get you into their, to their activities.

And, and there was a, you know, the standard stuff you'd expect at Harvard Divinity, I mean, like, you know, uh,

Greenpeace and, you know, um, you know, typical sort of left -wing causes.

There was a table though, for the evangelical fellowship at Harvard Divinity School that had like six names signed up.

And then I got to the LGBTQ, uh, whatever alphabet soup table. And they have three full pages front and back ever, you know, with signatures, people who had signed up to belong to that club.

This was in the mid 1990s. So this is something that goes back a ways. And so because of those days and my experience in that environment,

I know, uh, these people pretty well. I've heard everything that they had to say. And, uh, when they, uh, attacked the, you know,

Christian faith, but also in their own defense, and I'm not entirely impressed with them intellectually or in any other way, but your point is, is right on the money.

And these are people that we don't know the end of the story when it comes to those people.

And a person who's been redeemed from sin, uh, is a remarkable, a person who's been, been changed, uh, by the power of God, and it's almost unrecognizable to the people who knew them before they were regenerated.

And Christ tells us those who've been forgiven much love much. And that's been my experience. People who've come out of really dark situations become marvelous, saintly people, obviously not faultless, but nevertheless, they're grateful for what

God has done for them. And, uh, I think that's something to always just remember, you know, when

I'm looking at these people, I'm not looking at the end of the story. I'm not, this is not judgment day where we, where we see the sheep and the goats sorted out.

There's still a lot of uncertainty from a human perspective of how it's all going to play out with particular people.

And that's an important thing to keep in mind. It's a, it's a caveat that we shouldn't never, we shouldn't forget.

The other thing I think is, um, you know, we watch and pray that the, that's another thing that, uh, is important to do when we, when we see things like this, we should immediately go to prayer that has a way of checking the heart, putting it in the right frame.

Uh, of reference. And then I think there's also, uh, just the fact that we should spend, you know, even more time on things that are true, good and beautiful and praiseworthy.

So if you want to get your spirits, uh, sort of, uh, in the place where you want them to be, when you see something like that, a good way to purify your eyes and your, and your mind is to go to scripture, but also just to, to, uh, maybe just contemplate up, you know, the fact, you know, the beauty that surrounds you and God's creation, you know, it's a fallen world, but it's still a beautiful world.

Um, it's a fallen world, but we still enjoy many blessings, even, even in the United States, uh, in this dark time, it's a great place to live.

We enjoy many freedoms, so we need to count our blessings. So those are things that kind of keep us on track.

Amen. And, uh, one, uh, person who has encouraged me enormously in this area has, uh, been, uh, a man who's now retired from the pastorate, but I don't know if you are familiar with the name

Chuck McElhaney, but the name rings a bell. Chuck McElhaney at one time was the pastor of the first Presbyterian church, which is an

Orthodox Presbyterian congregation in San Francisco, California. Oh yes. That's why

I remember him. Right, right. He wrote the book when the wicked sees a city.

And it was all about how, when the church where Chuck pastored discovered that their organist was a homosexual, he was confronted with his sin and he refused to repent.

So they told him that they, uh, were compelled to terminate his position as the organist.

They pled with him to return to the church and repentance, uh, were more than willing to welcome him back into fellowship and restore him to his position eventually after making a credible profession of faith and repentance.

And he sued the church. Uh, the, the organist lost the lawsuit, but the homosexual activists of San Francisco unleashed their fury on this church and burned the parsonage to the ground.

Uh, the fire was started while pastor Chuck, his wife and children were still in the parsonage.

It was late at night while they were in bed. And thankfully, uh, either Chuck or his wife saw the flames reflecting off of the window and they escaped safely.

But even though that happened, Chuck McElhaney refused to leave.

Uh, he refused to move on to another church in another state and even continued a ministry, an outreach, uh, to, uh, homosexuals and transvestites and transgendered people who would, uh, visit that church.

And, uh, he really had a remarkably Christlike and loving response to that in the face of the fact that he could have been killed.

And on top of that, something I failed to mention that, uh, after the failed lawsuit, they received hundreds of messages on their answering machines.

So people who are, uh, millennials and generation X and Z's are wondering what's an answering machine.

That's what we had before we had voicemail on us before there were cell phones, but hundreds of them from people who are threatening to kidnap, sexually rape and molest and murder their children.

So on top of, on top of all this, they still maintained open arms of love to these, uh, representatives of that community, but we have to go to our midway break right now.

Uh, please be patient with us because the midway break is a longer commercial break than the others.

Because Grace Life Radio 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida, who airs this program, uh, they are required to use the middle of our show, uh, to localize

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio geographically to Lake City, Florida, because of the

FCC requirements that they do so with their own public service announcements and other local things.

While they do that, we simultaneously air our globally heard commercials. Please use this time wisely, write down as much of the contact information, uh, that our advertisers provide in their commercials as you possibly can so that you more so that you can more frequently and successfully respond to our advertisers.

We hope that that means that you buy their products, use their services, support their parachurch organizations and visit their churches.

But when you cannot do any of those things, there's one thing that every single Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listener can do who really loves this show and doesn't want it to disappear from the airways.

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Wiley right after these messages from our sponsors. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend, Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again for the

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Dr. Joe Moorcraft. I'm Joe Riley, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listener here in Atai in County Kildare, Ireland.

Going back to 2005, one of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is

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Before I return to C .R. Wiley and our discussion of his book, The Household and the

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Wiley, who is the author of The Household and the War for the

Cosmos, which we are discussing today, chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

We have another anonymous listener, Pastor Wiley, who is asking,

I don't know how much of the topic is involved in my question, but I think that there is a strong connection.

The church, it seems to me, errs on one extreme or the other when it comes to counseling married couples.

Either they protect men who are abusing their wives, or they believe that the wife is correct in every single circumstance, and make an obvious effort to side with the wife.

Do you think what I'm saying is accurate? And if it is, according to your assessment, what should be done about that?

Well, that's a great question, and I think a fairly accurate observation. I've seen the same thing.

And I think what should happen in any marital counseling situation is you should begin with biblical assumptions, or biblical truths, maybe that's a better way to put it.

A biblical truth is we've all sinned and fall short of the glory of God, which means that there are things that we all need to attend to in terms of our lives and how well they reflect the image of God and demonstrate the ongoing work of sanctification in our lives.

So that's a given, which means, in effect, that we shouldn't look for pure victims.

At the same time, it's true that men being physically stronger and in a position sometimes of taking advantage of some of the gifts that God has given them by using them in a wrong way can really do damage to women.

And so that's also something that we just need to be aware of. So when it comes to this particular matter,

I think a pastor should, in his work, be clear -eyed and faithful to Scripture and apply it where it should be applied in respect to both the husband and the wife.

So no favorites. The book of Leviticus tells us that favoritism is something that shouldn't characterize our judgments.

We should judge each other righteously. And the standard, of course, that we have is

God's Word. Thank you, Anonymous. And make sure you send us your full name and mailing address via email.

It will not be divulged over the air. And you'll receive a free copy of The Household and the

War for the Cosmos, Recovering a Christian Vision for the Family by C .R. Wiley. Thanks to Canon Press.

And thanks to Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com. I want to make sure that before I return to any listener questions that you have some time to highlight things that you definitely want to address that are primary portions of this book that you have written.

So if you could, just highlight some of those things so we make sure that we don't run out of time before you cover them.

Oh, yeah, sure. Thanks, Chris. Well, the book actually that was inspired or it was what was the occasion for the writing of the book was some reflections on an address that I gave at a conference in Chicago.

And the conference was really marvelous.

And it was one of the highlights of my life. But at the conference, Nancy Peercy was there and along with some other people who were people

I tremendously respect. And the nature of my talk was the recovery of piety properly understood.

One of the things that characterizes our thinking about piety today is that it's become a kind of pietistic and pietism kind of thing as opposed to what it once was.

And when we think of pietism, when we think of piety today, we think of something that is private and inward and kind of sort of is characterized by withdrawal from the world.

Whereas in the first century, piety was a social virtue.

It was something that was practiced not just by Christians, but by even pagans,

Romans in particular. The word that we have, we derive the English word piety from is the

Latin peus. And piety, as it was understood in the first century, was making a grateful return to a benefactor.

So your parents are benefactors. So it's pious to respect and obey your parents.

Your city leaders are benefactors. And so it's important to respect them and give them the kind of reverence that they deserve.

And obviously the creator, the one who made everything, deserves our gratitude and our devotion.

And so piety is serving and honoring and worshiping him.

So that's the way piety was understood in the first century. It was something that pervaded all of life.

And Christians, what distinguished Christians from their pagan neighbors is that they knew that Jesus is the

Christ and that he's the son of God and Lord. And consequently, their gratitude is directed towards him as opposed to Caesar or the

Roman pantheon of gods. So what distinguished Christians from their pagan neighbors wasn't whether or not they believed in piety.

It was who to honor. That was the question. That's what distinguished them. So the war of the cosmos that I'm describing in the book, it follows a conflict between Christians and their pagan neighbors over who's at the top.

Who is the Lord? If you believe that Caesar is Lord, then you order your households in a certain way.

You order your society in a certain way. But if you believe that Christ is Lord, well, then your household is ordered by his law and your community should be ordered that way by his law as well.

So that's the difference. So the war is the war between these two understandings of who's on top.

And is there some also disconnect that pietism has that may be involved in legalism and the mindset of even monastic evangelicalism?

Well, I think, yeah, I think any anybody who is under the impression that we can purify ourselves by maybe separating ourselves from everything in the world and kind of disengaging from life and failing to honor

God in every sphere of life like we're called to, that way of thinking about things is not healthy from just a

Christian point of view. But it certainly means that we're not the kind of salt and light that we can be if we're engaged in the world in a

God honoring way. So you think about Daniel in the Bible, I mean, he honored

God as a counselor in Babylon. But at the same time, he honored

God and worshipped him and refused to bow to the idols that he was commanded to bow to.

He didn't withdraw. In other words, his piety was practiced through giving the proper respect that the emperor or the king was due, but not giving him more than he was due, if you get my drift.

And then recognizing God as the creator and the Lord who deserved what only

God deserves. And that's piety as it should be expressed and practiced in the

Christian life. All right, we have another listener with a question for you.

We have CJ from Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York.

And CJ says, has your book received any negative backlash from those who might never call themselves feminists in the evangelical church, but in my opinion, clearly fit that description?

I am dismayed at seeing how far an entrenchment the feminist movement has had, even within conservative evangelical professedly

Bible -believing congregations and denominations. Well, the short answer is yes.

Huh, that's interesting. Yeah, and I'm not terribly surprised. I more or less expected it.

But at the same time, I don't spend a lot of time worrying about it. And I don't read all the hate mail and that kind of thing.

If you want to like let people into your head, you know, that's what you do.

You just spend all your time sort of arguing with them or sort of commiserating over what they've said.

The book has received a lot of positive attention, and I'm grateful for that. And I think anyone who reads the book can't come away with it with any sense that I'm somehow misogynist or something.

I think the only way you could conclude that would be by reading things into to what

I say that I don't say and so forth. But anyway, the short answer is yes, I've experienced that.

But, you know, I'm not surprised. Well, you have also won a free copy of The Household and the

War for the Cosmos. Make sure we have your full mailing address, CJ, there in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York.

And I actually miss Lindenhurst. I lived there for 10 years while I was living on Long Island before moving here to Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

When it comes to things that we can practically do in the body of Christ, not only pastors, but just people who are being good stewards of the congregations where they are members, if they see something lacking that may be making the church more open to unconsciously letting the

Trojan horse of the left inside, what can we be practically doing not only to protect the church from this starting to happen, if it hasn't, but also detecting the influences of the left that may have crept in, and we are unconscious of it, and how to make the transformation in our churches, how to right the wrongs, which may and will no doubt step on toes and hurt people's feelings, may outrage people, may even cause a church split.

But what are some of those things that we have to practically do, not only those who are leaders in the church, but also just your ordinary

Bible -believing members? I think Bible -believing members should be in prayer for the pastor and the elders of their churches.

They feel a lot of pressure from different sources, different places that maybe people even in the congregation are unaware that their pastor or their elders are feeling pressure from.

So just be prayerful that they'll be faithful and demonstrate some backbone and stand for the truth.

I think, too, reading good books and encouraging other people to read good books, particularly those writers who have demonstrated an ability to dissect the left and help you understand it.

An example would be Nancy Peercy. Nancy's done a good job on that score. A person like Carl Truman, if you're looking for sort of like a really challenging intellectual survey of what has gone on in the culture of the

West over the last 300 years, Carl's recent book on the subject of the rise and triumph of the modern self is a first -class read.

He does a tremendous job of laying it out. But then there are just other great writers who do similar things that will help you understand, okay, what is the nature of the threat?

Because I think that's often missed. What I think can happen is because people aren't familiar with the philosophies that inform leftism, they might find themselves drawn in by leftist rhetoric because it appeals to certain things they think are valuable.

For example, protecting women or making sure that people who are ethnic minorities don't experience discrimination, things like that.

So, you know, you see these people talking about those themes and those matters all the time.

You're sympathetic to the concerns. And the next thing you know, you're reading the stuff and then you kind of have a kind of gateway drug into some more serious leftism.

And just in case anybody is wondering, we have lots of, you know, it's not as though this stuff hasn't been around a while and we don't see where it leads.

We know where it leads. So it's not as though this is an experiment yet to be performed.

We've seen denominations destroyed. We've seen countries go from being prosperous to just terrible places to live because people have systematically and thoroughly applied what leftists tell us should be applied.

So anyway, so good reading, prayer, and then, you know, occasionally if you feel like you are in a position of authority or have the trust of leadership, conversations, just raising concerns, that kind of stuff.

Now, if you are an elder or, you know, a pastor, you really probably know that there are these resources out there, but perhaps you're not taking advantage of them.

You're not reading the things that would be helpful to, you know, help you see and diagnose how the church is being compromised by these forces.

So you should do some more reading and you ought to pray as well and align yourself.

Find people who are helpful and are, I guess you could say, colleagues in arms, would be a good way to put it, in your church or denomination, in your community, and so forth.

So those are some suggestions. We have an anonymous listener, another anonymous listener.

We're having quite a number of them today. An anonymous listener who says,

I believe it is very important and vital for the sake of obedience to Christ, first and foremost, to press forward, to make changes in a congregation where errors have crept in and had a foothold, but don't you believe it is extremely dangerous to, for the first time, bring up complaints about certain things, especially when they involve certain people in the church, publicly at church business meetings, rather than first privately having a conversation with the individuals that you think were those that helped to usher in negative beliefs and practices?

I think that this could ruin a church by publicly bringing up things that could have been resolved if we conduct ourselves biblically, as the guideline has been set out for us in the

God -breathed words in the book of Matthew, and we could even win over a brother or sister by discussing these things with love and charity and grace over a meal.

What are your thoughts? Well, I think that writer is absolutely right. I've got no hesitation.

In agreeing with everything that was said, I think it's very important to follow the biblical pattern, and I think going into a person that you believe has stumbled into error is a very important thing to do, and so do it.

Do it privately first, and if that doesn't make a difference, then you find a brother that can accompany you and continue that conversation, and then you take it from there.

Yeah, I think that Christians are far too prone, and it may,

I mean, I don't know this for a fact. I don't know if anybody could know this for a fact, but I think gossip may be one of the most prevalent sins that Christians are guilty of committing because we very often candy coat that sin under the guise of we are trying to do something positive and right and all that kind of thing, but gossip is one of, it's listed among the sins, the very sins that we are warning the church about today that are destroying the family and destroying local churches.

It's listed among sins that send people to hell. So, in fact,

I don't know if you're familiar with a wonderful book written by the late Jerry Bridges.

I had the opportunity and privilege and honor to interview him on several occasions, and on one of those occasions was to discuss his book,

Respectful Sins, I believe it was called, and he was using that title tongue -in -cheek, not that any sin is respectful, but that many people in the church have made certain sins respectful, even in conservative evangelical fundamentalist churches.

Right. Yeah, bearing false witness is what comes to mind, one of the Ten Commandments. Yeah, I think that's absolutely right, and it's a hard thing to control the tongue.

We're told that by James, so it shouldn't surprise us that our mouths run ahead of our heads, and when we find ourselves talking about stuff we shouldn't talk about or saying things about people we shouldn't say, we should do what we can to make it right.

Amen. We are going now to our final commercial break, and if anybody has any question that they want to ask of my guest,

I would strongly urge you to send it in very quickly because we are rapidly running out of time. The email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. Remember, only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Don't go away, we'll be right back with C .R.

Wiley right after these messages from our sponsors. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

I'm very excited to announce that my long -time friend Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again for the

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Thanks for helping to keep Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio on the air. This is

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Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio financially.

Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in Scripture through the person and work of our

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If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some

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Hi, this is John Samson, Pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona, taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnson and the

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I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide. This is a day of great spiritual compromise, and yet God has raised

Chris up for just such a time, and knowing this, it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances.

I'm pleased to do so and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting

Iron Sharpens Iron financially. Would you consider sending either a one -time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry?

I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would. All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com

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since the early 2000s, and what I've discovered is that the majority of Christian parents have never been biblically equipped to do the work of the ministry in their homes.

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As host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

The church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey, pastored by Alan Dunn.

Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's God's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshipped and how he shall be represented in the world.

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or call them at 908 -996 -7654. That's 908 -996 -7654.

Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. And please make note, folks, of the new website for Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey.

It is gcbc -nj .org. gcbc -nj .org.

So disregard the website that was provided in that commercial. gcbc -nj .org

is the new website. Well, Pastor Chris Wiley, we have time for one more question.

And again, it's an anonymous listener who says, do you know of any good, helpful resources for Christians who find themselves in the state of being divorced, and often because of the fact that this occurred before their rebirth?

Wow, that's a great question. And I wish I had something that came to mind that would, that kind of fits the, is a good answer, but I just don't.

Generally speaking, much of the stuff that you get in Christian bookstores concerning marriage has to do with an approach to marriage that I talked about earlier, which is kind of unconsciously and formed by secular assumptions about the meaning of marriage.

But I think, you know, this is something that is, if somebody is, who's listening to the show, has a great resource,

I hope that person will let you know, Chris, and you can pass along that information. I just kind of drawn a blank,

I'm afraid. Yeah, and I'm shocked that I just typed in divorce into the search engine of my website and did not find any interviews on that.

And that doesn't seem to be right, because I recall some, I have to ask my webmaster about that. But if you could, in approximately two minutes time, just summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners about the household and the war for the cosmos.

Well, I hope that they will at least consider reading it.

The purpose I was pursuing when I was writing it was to put our understanding of our households within a larger framework.

As I noted earlier in our show, I think our tendency is to think about households within the framework of our desires.

And while it's certainly the case that we can have good desires, and there are very many legitimate things that marriage does that addresses our needs as men and women, there's still a larger framework for thinking about the household that has been neglected and desperately needs to be recovered.

And that'll, I think, that larger framework will help us press through the challenges that we face as men and women who are married, but also give us a sense that our little marriage is participating in a much larger story that is really the story of the world.

It's the story of redemption. It's the story of God saving His church and glorifying it.

So I think all those things will be helpful to anybody who cares about the state of marriage in our society.

Any speaking engagements or any activities that you want to inform our listeners about?

Well, in fact, I'm going to be in Shelbyville, Kentucky, right outside of Louisville next month.

And then I do a lot of traveling. I'm going to be down in Alabama a couple times. I think, if I remember correctly,

September or October. So there are just,

I wish I could think of the locations and the dates and so forth, but I just don't have that information in front of me.

But if you're interested in kind of following my travels and so forth, you can find me on various social media platforms.

Well, I'm going to have to let Jerry Doris, who I have interviewed on this program, a pastor of Reformation Church of Shelbyville, Kentucky, I'll have to let him know about your speaking engagement.

And perhaps he can attend and encourage folks in his congregation to as well. Well, I want to thank you so much,

Pastor Wiley, for being such a superb guest, and I want to remind our listeners that if you want to purchase this book,

The Household and the War for the Cosmos, Recovering a Christian Vision for the Family, by our guest

C .R. Wiley, go to canonpress .com, canonpress .com,

and remember, canon in this context is spelt with one n, or actually two n's, but not together, not next to each other, c -a -n -o -n, press .com.

And also, if you want more information about the church where our guest,

Pastor Wiley, is the pastor, go to solocristo .org,

solocristo .org, and that's the website of Westminster Presbyterian Church in Vancouver, and Washington.

And if you are in that area, please let us know that you have visited this church and give us a report.

I want to thank all of you who have listened today, especially those who took the time to write, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater