Keep sharing good news without ads.
July 13, 2023
C. R. WILEY, author & pastor of Westminster Presbyterian Church (PCA) of Vancouver, Washington, who will address:
“The HOUSEHOLD & the WAR for the COSMOS”
Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of Founding Father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer George Duffield, 19th century Gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend Jim Thorpe, it's Iron Sharpens Iron.
This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the Church and the world today. Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.
Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better. It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.
And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen.
Afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth. We're listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this 13th day of July, 2023.
I cannot believe it's already been six years since the last time I've had today's guests on the program. It was quite a long time ago, six years, May 29th, 2017, when my guest C .R. Wiley discussed his book, Man of the House, a handbook for building a shelter that will last in a world that is falling apart.
Well, today's discussion is not too far in a field of that topic. Today, we are going to be discussing C .R. Wiley's new book, The Household and the War for the Cosmos. And C .R. Wiley is author and today pastors Westminster Presbyterian Church, which is a congregation in the Presbyterian Church in America, the PCA, of Vancouver, Washington.
And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor C .R. Wiley.
Hey, thanks, Chris. It's great to be with you again. It's hard to believe it's been that long. I agree.
Yeah, and I can even recall when I first met you, which was longer ago than that, probably was the early 90s, I met you when I came out to Connecticut, where you were once pastoring and you were either hosting the conference or you were present at the conference.
And Robert Godfrey was one of the speakers and had a debate. Robert Godfrey had a debate with Peter Lightheart on infant communion. Were you hosting that debate or were you just attending that?
I was just there. I didn't host it yet.
Well, tell us about Westminster Presbyterian Church of Vancouver, Washington.
Well, it's a really marvelous place to serve. We're a growing church. We had 70 visitors last Sunday, which is kind of overwhelming. So we're in a kind of phase of our life where we're growing and building sort of our ability to minister to people, hiring staff and stuff.
But the church is full of just great folks. We've got a number of very large families. So the median age of the church is about 15 years old because of all the little people that we've got. And we are a friendly church, but we're also very liturgically, I guess you'd say, conservative.
We serve communion every week. We, you know, recite the creeds, sing psalms. You know, that's kind of the sort of the nature of our liturgy. And anyway, I'm glad to be there with those folks.
And is that exclusive psalmody or do you just include them with the hymnody?
We include them. It's not exclusive.
Okay. Well, if anybody lives in Vancouver, Washington or nearby or is visiting there or you have friends, family and loved ones that live in or near Vancouver, Washington, you can find out more about this fine church at solochristo .org, S-O-L-O-C-H-R-I-S-T-O .org.
And let me ask you, I have always been curious and I'm not sure anybody has ever told me, what's the difference between solo Christo and solus Christus?
That's a great question. If I was a Latinist, I'd be able to give you a better.
I've heard it's had something to do with the tents or something like that.
But yeah, that sounds right.
But I hope some folks hearing this program today will pop by and pay you a visit. Well, we are living in a day and age that is increasingly frightening. And I know that conservatives and more specifically, Christians have said that probably for millennia, but it seems that the frightening aspect of society and its relationship to the family or the household is just becoming more and more bizarre.
In addition to being frightening, things are developing and being held to as being the orthodoxy of society that even liberals never would have dreamed would be condoned and celebrated as they are today.
What was the driving force behind your writing, The Household and the War for the Cosmos, Recovering a Christian Vision for the Family?
Well, I think you've touched on it. I think the sexual revolution has proceeded and been victorious, largely speaking, with regard to the secular society that we find ourselves in. We're seeing the last vestiges of Christian conviction fall away from sort of the broad sort of ethos of our culture, and it's forcing churches to sort of count the cost when it comes to faithfulness to Scripture and even to sanity.
And so there's a kind of way in which this is playing out, I think, in a disappointing way, even among evangelical Christians. But at the same time, we see kind of wheat and tares growing together. There's a lot of things.
There are a number of things that I'm really very encouraged about. I think faithful churches in many parts of the country are actually growing at a remarkable rate at the moment because of the way things are being kind of sorting out.
And I just noted here the other day that I've never seen a period in my ministry where young men are more open to the gospel and direct, frank conversations about their own lives. So, as you know, the opening, I think of, what was it?
I can't remember the name of the book, Great Expectations, perhaps, at the best of times. The worst of times is kind of what we find ourselves in.
Was that the Tale of Two Cities?
That's it, Tale of Two Cities. That's right.
And where do you trace, how far back do you trace the problem? I know that some folks who talk about the erosion of the family when they're coming from a conservative and Christian viewpoint, they trace it back to Thomas E. Dewey and the Marxist ideology that he introduced into the public school system.
But where do you trace the issue back?
Well, he's certainly part of the story, but I wouldn't say he's the point of origin at all. I think you can kind of look at it in two ways. As believers, we know that the household has always been in the target sites of Satan, and so we can trace it all the way back to the garden.
But if we're looking at something more recent, I think, you know, in the 19th century was particularly awful in this respect. There was something that developed in sort of the aftermath of the Enlightenment, where it became evident to many people that you couldn't justify the authority of reason or even its capacity to know the truth without God.
So, rather than, you know, sort of be with the sort of the revelation that precipitated a recovery of the Christian faith as a cultural force, people just took that and went further than any of the sort of the Enlightenment philosophes would have anticipated.
So, people like Nietzsche, Darwin, obviously Marx, they developed what they referred, what has been referred to as the hermeneutic of suspicion, which is essentially a, we've lost faith in the power of reason, and we've retreated into this objective into sort of the sophistry that we saw addressed by Plato in Athens, where, you know, might makes right, man is the measure of all things, all that kind of stuff.
And the way things get sorted out in a world like that is just who's got the power. So, it all becomes power dynamics, and we even lose faith in the capacity of language to convey the truth. Now, language is simply a tool that you use to get your way.
So, that's why, you know, we have this sort of proliferation of interest groups who suspect that when we speak to them and say that what they're doing is wrong, that we're just simply guilty of hate speech, and that we're just trying to kill them.
You know, that's what they, that's how they interpret it, rather than, you know, speaking the truth in love and trying to demonstrate our desire to help them leave a destructive way of living. So, anyway, that's, I think, the 19th century is particularly bad, but you can see, you know, even the roots of this going back into the Enlightenment, you know, people like Voltaire and so forth.
But it's a long story, and I think we're coming to the end of a particular episode or phase of it, and what is emerging or opening up before us is really, I think, what we've kind of been describing as sort of a parting of the ways, and we're going to see how things play out.
And I'm actually very hopeful for the Church. I think that if we recover our apostolic confidence and proclaim the Gospel, and understand that the law of God is something that is intended to be, you know, sort of a framework within which we build a healthy society, then, you know, the future is bright for the Church.
But there's going to be a long period of sorting out, and there's going to be a lot of misery and suffering and just insanity like we're seeing all around us at the same time.
What exactly did you mean in your title, or what did you intend by in your title, The War for the Cosmos?
Yeah, well, the word cosmos is, in our contemporary use, a word that we use for outer space. So, when we think about the cosmos, we're thinking about stars and galaxies and so forth. But it's actually the word in the New Testament, the Greek word, that's translated into the word world very often.
And when we think of a world, we think of just a place. You know, like I live on planet Earth, or the environment in which I live. But in the first century, the word conveyed a bigger meaning, and that was the order of things at the largest level.
So, the cosmos was an order. And so, when, you know, the Apostle Paul spoke of the world, he was talking about the world that God made, the order that God made, or the mess that's been made of it. So, there's a sense in which the word is, depending on the context, either has a positive or a negative connotation.
So, like when we say, for God so loved the world, it would set us with that way it reads is, for God so loved the cosmos that he gave his only begotten son. Well, that's the world that God made. God is the order that God made.
But when we're told that we shouldn't love the world or anything in the world, that's the mess we've made of it. So, that's like the order that we can say is the kingdom of darkness.
Well, as your subtitle describes the book, Recovering a Christian Vision for the Family, what is, in summary, your Christian vision for the family?
Well, the way that I approach the matter in my book is what I think is actually implied in Scripture throughout Scripture, and that is the household is a microcosm. So, when you hear the term microcosm, you do hear the word cosmos.
Cosm is cosmos. So, it's an order. It's a small order that reflects the larger order. So, the larger order, as Christians understand, is Christ is the head and the church is the body, and that we are on our way to a beautiful future kind of the cosmos 2 .0 in which the church, as the bride of Christ, enjoys all of the glory and blessings that have been secured for her because of the victory of Christ.
That's, of course, the great wedding feast of the Lamb. And, you know, we see the happy ending in the book of Revelation where this all comes to pass. So, in the meantime, the church is united to Christ, and Christ is the head, the husband.
The church is the bride, the body, and that, we see the apostle Paul says, is the model for a household order. So, a husband is to love his wife as Christ loves the church. A wife is to respect her husband and submit to him like the church submits to Christ.
So, the microcosm reflects the macrocosm. And when a household is ordered well, it's a little bit of heaven on earth. Obviously, we're sinners. Obviously, we fall short. But when it's done right, it's a beautiful picture of the end of the world.
And what do you see in your experience, not only just as an American citizen, now who has lived on both coasts, first the East and now the West, what do you see as not only an average citizen and a Christian, but as a pastor, are things that you believe are areas where the church has failed in regard to the maintenance of households?
And how much of the world's ideology, philosophies, and worldview have many Christian families perhaps unconsciously adopted, in your opinion?
Oh yeah, that's a very significant matter. I think that we've more or less conformed to a fallen understanding of the way marriage is to be understood. For unbelievers, if they even entertain marriage, they do so as a kind of lifestyle choice that maybe they have a preference for.
And that lifestyle choice is supposed to be fulfilling at a personal level. But the marriage itself doesn't speak to any larger concern than the interest of the two people who get married. So that's why with no-fault divorce, for example, if you're not happy anymore in your marriage, then its purpose is no longer being served because it's all about the couple, and it's all about their felt needs and their self-understanding of what makes them happy at any given time.
We know though, of course, that in any relationship, there are going to be good times and bad times. And there are going to be times where we feel unhappy with the way things are. But if we have a sense that the institution that we belong to has a larger purpose, we can kind of steel ourselves and press through the difficulty.
So for example, let's say you're in the army and you're fighting a just war. There are going to be lots of periods in the course of that conflict where you're just not very happy. But you do what you need to do in order to serve the interests that are being served by that institution, the military.
And so you do what you need to do to soldier on, so to speak. And I think that's the side of things that we just have lost largely in the culture that we find ourselves in. But it's worked itself into the church.
And generally speaking, when pastors talk about marriage, most of them want marriages to succeed, of course. And most of them want people to stick together. But they conceive of the institution in the very way that is helping to sort of undermine it.
You know, because of the secular and the larger sort of social assumptions that prevail in our society. People just don't get it, even in the church anymore, you know, when it comes to what is this supposed to be about?
Well, we are going to our first commercial break. If you have a question for C .R. Wiley on his book, Household and the War for the Cosmos, Recovering a Christian Vision for the Family, send it to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.
ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. That's C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.
Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter, a matter involving your own family, a matter involving families within the congregation where you're a member, or your pastor's family, or whatever the case may be where you would be compelled to remain anonymous.
We will obviously honor that request, but if it's a general question, please give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence. Don't go away. We're going to be right back with C .R. Wiley after these messages from our sponsors.
James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here. I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again for the G3 National Conference.
That's Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd on a theme that I've been preaching, teaching, writing about, and defending in live public debates for most of my life, the sovereignty of God.
I'll be joined on the speaking roster by Steve Lawson, Voti Baucom, Paul Washer, Virgil Walker, Scott Anuel, and Josh Bice, founder of G3 Ministries. And there's more great news. Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio can get you a 30 discount off the registration fee.
Go to g3min .org, that's g3min .org, and enter promo code G3ISIR. That's G -3-I-S-I-R for the 30 discount. Chris Arnzen, I look forward to seeing you all Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd for the G3 National Conference in Atlanta, Georgia on the sovereignty of God.
Make sure you stop by the Iron Sharpens Radio exhibitor booth at Chris Arnzen while you're there. Go to g3min .org and enter promo code G3ISIR for your 30 discount off the registration fee.
I'm Brian McLaughlin, president of the SecureComm Group,.
And an enthusiastic supporter of Chris Arnzen's Iron Sharpens Iron Radio program. The SecureComm Group provides the highest level of security, close-circuit television, access control, and communication systems for Manhattan's top residential buildings, as well as churches, commercial properties, municipalities, and more.
We custom install exactly what you need to protect yourself, including digital recording, off-site viewing, and connectivity from most smart devices. From simple code-activated systems to the latest technology using facial recognition, the SecureComm Group has it.
We also provide the latest in intercom and IP telephone systems. In addition, we provide superior networking platforms. We'll create, maintain, and secure your local network. Whether it's a Wi-Fi or hardwire network, we'll implement the latest secured firewall, endpoint solutions, and cloud backup.
I would love to have the honor and privilege of helping protect the lives and property of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listeners and their associates. For more details on how the SecureComm Group may be of service to you with the very latest in security innovations, call 718 -353 -3355.
That's 718 -353 -3355. Or visit securecommgroup .com. That's securecommgroup .com. This is Brian McLaughlin of the SecureComm Group, joining Chris Arnzen's family of advertisers to keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air.
When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the NASB.
This is Darrell Bernard Harrison, co-host of the Just Thinking podcast, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.
I'm Pastor Tom Buck at First Baptist Church in Lindale, Texas, and the NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Kent Keller of Faith Bible Church in Sharpsburg, Georgia, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.
I'm Andrew Rapport, the founder and executive director at Striving for Eternity Ministries, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.
I'm Mark Romaldi, pastor of Sovereign Grace Church of Greenbrier, Tennessee, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.
I'm Christopher Cookston, pastor of Prineville Community Church in Prineville, Oregon, and the NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Matt Tarr, pastor of High Point Baptist Church in Larksville, Pennsylvania, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.
Here's a great way for your church to help keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. Pastors, are your pew bibles tattered and falling apart? Consider restocking your pews with the NASB, and tell the publishers you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
Go to nasbible .com, that's nasbible .com to place your order.
Here at Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, praise God for the generous monthly financial support of Royal Diadem Jewelers, educated by and affiliated with the American Gem Society. Jewelers of America, and the Gemological Institute of America.
For the perfect custom-designed engagement ring, or any one-of-a-kind piece of jewelry created exactly according to your imagination and specifications, Royal Diadem Jewelers has you covered. No matter where you live in the world, Royal Diadem will walk you step-by-step through every stage of the process, and even hold a high-tech internet virtual visit, using state-of-the-art jewelry design technology to serve you.
They start by listening carefully to determine your needs. They're interested in making what you want, not what they want to sell you. From rough design to digital model, to photorealistic image, to wax prototype model, to the finished product, they're continually listening to your input, likes and dislikes, making any changes necessary along the way.
This will ensure that your custom jewelry will turn out exactly as you dreamed, and well beyond your expectations. Visit royaldiadem .com. That's royaldiadem .com today. Sterling Vanderwercker, owner of Royal Diadem Jewelers, his wife, Bronnie, his business partner and manager, Brian Wilson, and the entire family, thank you all for listening to, praying for, and supporting the work of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
And don't forget folks, royaldiadem .com is still offering Iron Sharpens Iron Radio this mind-blowing deal. Anyone in the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience who purchases jewelry from royaldiadem .com, valued at $100 or more, if they mention that they heard about royaldiadem .com from Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, 100 of the profits from that sale will go directly to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
So if you are purchasing a piece of jewelry they already have in stock at royaldiadem .com, valued at $100 or more, or if you're having something more elaborate done, you're having a customized piece of jewelry created like an engagement ring, or perhaps you're taking your church logo, your parachurch ministry logo, your denomination logo, your seminary logo, and you want to turn it into a pendant for a necklace, or a ring, or any other kind of piece of jewelry, or anything else that your creativity and imagination can conjure up in your mind, they will take what's in your brain and turn it into a physical piece of jewelry that will blow your mind.
And I've seen firsthand the mastery that royaldiadem .com has over customizing jewelry. You will be absolutely stunned at how breathtaking this piece of jewelry will be that you've had customized because, first of all, you won't be disappointed because you are involved in every single step of the customization process through the miracle of the internet and computer software.
No matter where in the world you live, you will see every step of the design and creation of your piece of jewelry on the internet, and you have the ability to give your input constantly, making changes, and even adding new things that you didn't think of before.
And on top of all of that, you get a wax prototype in the mail before they actually make it into a finalized piece of jewelry. So please, if you have any intention on purchasing jewelry for yourself or someone you love, please go to royaldiadem .com soon and mention Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, because we have no idea when they're going to pull the plug on this amazing offer where we get 100 of the profits from that sale.
That's royaldiadem .com. Mention Chris Arnz of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. We are now back with our discussion with C .R. Wiley, and C .R. Wiley has written a new book, The Household and the Cosmos, or I'm sorry, The Household and the War for the Cosmos, and the subtitle is Recovering a Christian Vision for the Family.
I want to read an excerpt from Nancy Piercy's foreword to this book. Today, the true revolutionaries are not feminists, homosexual activists or other progressives, but those who are seeking to halt any further erosion of the family and even reverse the process.
Families who are intentionally working to restore at least some of the traditional functions of the household. And we have, Brother Wiley, we have a question from an anonymous listener that has come in.
And the anonymous listener says, as a pastor and as the author of this book, what counsel do you have for families who, on one hand, are attempting to shelter their children and protect their children from outside influences that have a design and an intention to capture their imaginations and minds and pollute them with false anti-Christian worldviews, without at the same time keeping them so isolated and protected that they become incapable of having a conversation as they grow older with those who are in the outside world, making their efforts to evangelizing and discuss their faith almost impossible because they can't even understand what those who are protesting against their faith are saying.
Well, that's a great question. And there are a couple of thoughts that come to mind for me on that. So I've got three grown children, and they are all married and doing well. So they're believers and have children of their own.
And I'm pleased, of course, that God has blessed me this way and blessed them. But in terms of my own experience with them, one of the things that I did throughout the course of their childhoods is engage with them in pretty serious conversations about what's going on in the world in an age-appropriate way at the right time.
But it required of me a pretty, I think, a good education and some real personal experience that I could draw on to help them understand what was going on. And then the other side of it, of course, is to present to them in the very way the family is ordered and is working.
And in other ways, through literature or obviously worship at church and scripture, a beautiful vision that just very strikingly contrasts with what they see going on all around them in the world. I think there's a kind of naivete that is unavoidable when you're talking to, say, second and third generation Christians, because they don't have direct experience with the things that they're told are evil.
But those of us who witness those things firsthand, experience those things firsthand, we do the best we can to warn them. But we have to kind of reconcile ourselves to the fact that you can't inherit your parents' experiences.
So there has to be at least a measure of freedom that the children have to think and to ask questions and to even challenge parents when they get a little older and get good answers. And there are going to be periods of time, of course, where the child is thoughtful and maybe wondering and questioning what he or she's been told.
But I think, by and large, when things are done well, most of the time, a child comes out on the other side of that in a really good spot. And I'm pleased to say that's been the case with my children, and I've seen that in many other families as well.
So the point of the question is a great question, and it's something that I take very seriously, but that's been my approach.
Well, thank you, Anonymous. And if you email me your full name and mailing address, you will win, you will receive absolutely free of charge a copy of The Household and the War for the Cosmos, Recovering a Christian Vision for the Family by our guest C .R. Wiley.
And that will be compliments of the publisher, Canon Press, and also compliments of Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CVBBS .com, who will be shipping that book out to you at no charge to you or to Iron Shepard's Iron Radio.
And if you are a first-time questioner, please identify yourself that way, because on top of that, you will also receive a free New American Standard Bible. So please let us know about that. We also have Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania, who says, after exploring your book on the internet, I have discovered that it is published by Canon Press, and I was wondering if you share the passion for classical Christian education that seems to be championed by the ministries affiliated with that publisher.
Well, I am on the board of New St. Andrews College. I'm also on the board of the Academy of Philosophy and Letters, which isn't explicitly committed to classical education, but is very sympathetic to it.
So yes, I do believe that a good education includes a good and thorough introduction to the Western tradition. If I were in a different part of the world, maybe I would include other works as well, but that doesn't mean that we put those things on the level of scripture or on the teachings that we've received from sound teachers over the centuries.
It just means that there are things that even pagan people know that are worth knowing, and their insights aren't complete, but they're still useful to a degree. So, for example, when we think about, say, the Apostle Paul, the Apostle Paul was thoroughly acquainted with Stoicism.
We know that that's the case because he could quote Stoics off the top of his head. He did so when he was in Athens. We see it in Acts chapter 17. So he engages in an apologetic with Epicurean and Stoic philosophers, knowing very well that they reject any possibility of an afterlife, and he looks for points of contact in his conversation with them, things that he could agree with them about, but he doesn't hold back at the end.
He tells them that the Lord Jesus had been raised from the dead, and that was an indication that he was going to judge the world, and that they needed to get on good terms with him. And that's the point at which they were offended.
They weren't offended by anything he said prior to that, contrary to what maybe people had heard. And the reason I know that is because I'm thoroughly acquainted with Stoicism. I've read the Stoics and have a pretty good sort of understanding of the way they thought.
So I'm reading right now, I'm reading Marcus Aurelius's Meditations, and Aurelius was the emperor, Roman emperor. He learned from actually another Stoic philosopher who was a slave, and that's one of the things, that's one of the marvelous ironies he learned from Epictetus.
But what he was missing was something that we as Christians know, but he didn't know, or if he had heard about it, he didn't believe it, and that is the resurrection. So if you don't factor the resurrection into your thinking when you're trying to understand the world, you're going to get some things wrong.
That's just a given, but that doesn't mean that everything you think is entirely wrong. There are some things that you can see, and we can see the Apostle Paul talking about that in Romans chapter one.
There are some things that you can see that are true, and you can actually think about them in ways that, and write about them in ways that are helpful. So you know Calvin knew this, other great theologians knew this, and that's why they didn't simply, you know, get rid of or burn all of the books that we've received from antiquity.
They read them and tried to get.
What they could out of them. Do you have a personal preference as to a superior model of education for Christian children between classical Christian education in an actual school setting or homeschooling?
Well in my church, we're very committed to.
Homeschooling. Our church families do use classical Christian curriculum, but the children are taught at home. I know many people who have children who were enrolled in classical Christian schools, and they seem to be doing great.
My own kids had a little bit of both. So I'm not an advocate of one over the at the expense of the other, although I do think that it's hard to beat just the sort of the sort of the I think the healthy dynamics that can happen in a well.
Run homeschool environment. Great. Oh by the way Arnie in Perry County, you have also won a free copy of The Household and the War for the Cosmos by our guest C .R. Wiley, and that is compliments of our friends at Kennan Press who have given us a limited number of free copies for listeners who submit questions.
And we also want to thank Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service CVVBS .com will be shipping this book out to you. One of the things that I have a difficulty with, and I'm sure that most Christians do, unless they are far more super sanctified than I am, which I would mean most people, but I get so sickened and outraged when I see things in the media like just yesterday on the news, I believe it was yesterday, a parade of homosexuals chanting, we're here, we're queer, we're coming for your children, and saying that with much exuberant joy and laughter and just vile satanic expressions on their faces.
The situation that makes my reaction to that difficult is trying to curb the hateful anger that boils up in me. I have to forget, I have to remember, I should say, that these people are lost and even as vile and grotesque as their ideology may be, in that parade there may be some of God's elect that have not yet been regenerated and given new hearts.
So how as a pastor do you counsel people to curb the fury that boils up in them when you actually have people publicly chanting that they're coming for your children? And as someone, a conservative commentator recently said while playing that video, they mean what they say, folks.
This is not just a hyperbole. This is not just done for their own entertainment. They actually mean what they say. How do you respond to my question there? Yeah, Chris, I thoroughly.
Understand your perspective and I share it. I lived in Cambridge, for goodness sake, right between Harvard and MIT for about a decade and was actually at Harvard Divinity School for a period of time. I remember during those days when I was at Harvard Divinity School, I remember one semester I was walking down the hall and you know how you always have in different educational institutions in the first few days of school, all the clubs that want to sign you up to get you into their activities.
And there was a, you know, the standard stuff you'd expect at Harvard Divinity. I mean, like, you know, Greenpeace and, you know, typical sort of left-wing causes. There was a table, though, for the Evangelical Fellowship at Harvard Divinity School that had like six names signed up.
And then I got to the LGBTQ, whatever, alphabet soup table and they had three full pages front and back, you know, with signatures, people who had signed up to belong to that club. This was in the mid -1990s.
So this is something that goes back a ways. And so because of those days and my experience in that environment, I know these people pretty well. I've heard everything that they had to say when they attacked the, you know, Christian faith, but also in their own defense.
And I'm not entirely impressed with them intellectually or in any other way, but your point is right on the money. And these are people that we don't know the end of the story when it comes to those people.
And a person who's been redeemed from sin is a remarkable, a person who's been changed by the power of God and is almost unrecognizable to the people who knew them before they were regenerated. And Christ tells us those who've been forgiven much love much.
And that's been my experience. People who've come out of really dark situations become marvelous, saintly people, obviously not faultless, but nevertheless, they're grateful for what God has done for them.
And I think that's something to always just remember, you know, when I'm looking at these people, I'm not looking at the end of the story. I'm not, this is not judgment day where we, where we see the sheep and the goats sorted out.
There's still a lot of uncertainty from a human perspective of how it's all going to play out with particular people. And that's an important thing to keep in mind. It's a caveat that we shouldn't, we shouldn't forget.
The other thing I think is, you know, we watch and pray. That's another thing that is important to do. When we see things like this, we should immediately go to prayer. That has a way of checking the heart, putting it in the right frame of reference.
And then I think there's also just the fact that we should spend, you know, even more time on things that are true, good and beautiful and praiseworthy. So if you want to get your spirits sort of in the place where you want them to be, when you see something like that, a good way to purify your eyes and your mind is to go to scripture, but also just to maybe just contemplate the beauty that surrounds you in God's creation.
You know, it's a fallen world, but it's still a beautiful world. It's a fallen world, but we still enjoy many blessings. Even in the United States, in this dark time, it's a great place to live. We enjoy many freedoms.
So we need to count our blessings. So those are things that kind of keep.
Us on track. Amen. And one person who has encouraged me enormously in this area has been a man who's now retired from the pastorate, but I don't know if you are familiar with the name Chuck McElhaney.
The name rings a bell. Chuck McElhaney at one time was the pastor of the First Presbyterian Church, which is an Orthodox Presbyterian congregation in San Francisco, California. Oh, yes. That's why I remember him.
Right. Right. He wrote the book When the Wicked Seize a City. And it was all about how when the church, where Chuck pastored, discovered that their organist was a homosexual, he was confronted with his sin and he refused to repent.
So they told him that they were compelled to terminate his position as the organist. They pled with him to return to the church in repentance, were more than willing to welcome him back into fellowship and restore him to his position eventually after making a credible profession of faith and repentance.
And he sued the church. The organist lost the lawsuit. But the homosexual activists of San Francisco unleashed their fury on this church and burned the parsonage to the ground. The fire was started while Pastor Chuck, his wife and children were still in the parsonage.
It was late at night while they were in bed. And thankfully, either Chuck or his wife saw the flames reflecting off of the window and they escaped safely. But even though that happened, Chuck McElhaney refused to leave.
He refused to move on to another church in another state and even continued a ministry, an outreach to homosexuals and transvestites and transgendered people who would visit that church. And he really had a remarkably Christlike and loving response to that in the face of the fact that he could have been killed.
And on top of that, something I failed to mention, that after the failed lawsuit, they received hundreds of messages on their answering machines of people who are millennials and Generation X and Zs are wondering, what's an answering machine?
That's what we had before we had voicemail on us, before there were cell phones. But hundreds of them from people who are threatening to kidnap, sexually rape and molest and murder their children. So on top of all this, they still maintained open arms of love to these representatives of that community.
But we have to go to our midway break right now. Please be patient with us because the midway break is a longer commercial break than the others because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida, who airs this program, they are required to use the middle of our show to localize Iron Sharpens Iron Radio geographically to Lake City, Florida, because of the FCC requirements that they do so with their own public service announcements and other local things.
While they do that, we simultaneously air our globally heard commercials. Please use this time wisely. Write down as much of the contact information that our advertisers provide in their commercials as you possibly can, so that you can more frequently and successfully respond to our advertisers.
We hope that that means that you buy their products, use their services, support their parachurch organizations and visit their churches. But when you cannot do any of those things, there's one thing that every single Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listener can do who really loves this show and doesn't want it to disappear from the airways.
All you have to do is contact their advertisers and say thank you so much for sponsoring Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. And that will go a long way, I am sure, to convince these folks that their money is being spent well and that their sharing of the wealth that God has blessed them with, with us, is not in vain.
So we ask of you to please at least thank our advertisers and also use this time to send in your questions to C .R. Wiley to chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away, we'll be right back with C .R. Wiley right after these messages from.
Our sponsors. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here. I'm very excited to announce that my long-time.
Friend Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again for the G3 National Conference. That's Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd on a theme that I've been preaching, teaching, writing about, and defending in live public debates for most of my life, the sovereignty of God.
I'll be joined on the speaking roster by Steve Lawson, Voti Baucom, Paul Washer, Virgil Walker, Scott Anuel, and Josh Bice, founder of G3 Ministries. And there's more great news, Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio can get you a 30 discount off the registration fee.
Go to g3min .org, that's g3min .org, and enter promo code G3ISIR. That's G3ISIR for the 30 discount. Chris Arnson, I look forward to seeing you all Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd for the G3 National Conference in Atlanta, Georgia on the sovereignty of God.
Make sure you stop by the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Exhibitor booth and say hi to Chris Arnson while you're there. Go to g3min .org and enter.
Promo code G3ISIR for your 30 discount off the registration fee. It's such a blessing to hear.
From Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listeners from all over the world. Here's Joe Reilly, a listener in Ireland who wants you to know about a guest on the show he really loves hearing interviewed,.
Dr. Joe Moorcraft. I'm Joe Reilly, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listener here in Italy in County Kildare, Ireland. Going back to 2005, one of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is Dr. Joe Moorcraft.
If you've been blessed by Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr. Moorcraft and Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia are largely to thank since they are one of the program's largest financial supporters.
Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming is in Forsyth County, a part of the Atlanta metropolitan area. Heritage is a thoroughly biblical church, unwaveringly committed to Westminster standards, and Dr. Joe Moorcraft is the author of an eight volume commentary on the larger catechism.
Heritage is a member of the Hanover Presbytery, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone, and tracing its roots and heritage back to the great Protestant Reformation of the 16th century.
Heritage maintains and follows the biblical truth and principles proclaimed by the reformers, scripture alone, grace alone, faith alone, Christ alone, and God's glory alone. Their primary goal is the worship of the triune God that continues in eternity.
For more details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit heritagepresbyterianchurch .com, that's heritagepresbyterianchurch .com, or call 678 -954 -7831, that's 678 -954 -7831. If you visit, tell them Joe Roydigan, Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listener from LaToy in County Kildare, Arlington sent you.
Hello, my name is Anthony Eugenio, and I'm one of the pastors at Hope.
Reform Baptist Church in Corum, New York, and also the host of the reformrookie .com website. I want you to know that if you enjoy listening to the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio show like I do, you can now find it on the Apple's iTunes app by typing Iron Sharpens Iron Radio in the search bar.
You no longer have to worry about missing a show or a special guest because you're in your car or still at work. Just subscribe on the iTunes app and listen to the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio show at any time, day or night.
Please be sure to also give it a good review and pass it along to anyone who would benefit from the teaching and the many solidly reformed guests that Chris Arnzen has on the show. Truth is so hard to come by these days, so don't waste your time with fluff or fake news.
Subscribe to the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio podcast right now. And while you're at it, you can also sign up for the reformrookie .com podcast and visit our website and the YouTube page. We are dedicated to teaching Christian theology from a Reformed Baptist perspective to beginners in the faith as well as seasoned believers.
From Keach's Catechism and the Doctrines of Grace to the Olivet Discourse and the Book of Leviticus, the Reform Rookie podcast and YouTube channel is sure to have something to offer everyone seeking biblical truth.
And finally, if you're looking to worship in a Reformed church that holds to the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith, please join us at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Coram, New York. Again, I'm Pastor Anthony Avino, and thanks for listening.
Every day at thousands of community centers, high schools, middle schools, juvenile institutions, coffee shops and local hangouts, Long Island Youth for Christ, staff and volunteers meet with young people who need Jesus.
We are rural and urban, and we are always about the message of Jesus. Our mission is to have a noticeable spiritual impact on Long Island, New York, by engaging young people in the lifelong journey of following Christ.
Long Island Youth for Christ has been a stalwart bedrock ministry since 1959. We have a world-class staff and a proven track record of bringing consistent love and encouragement to youths in need all over the country and around the world.
Help honor our history by becoming a part of our future. Volunteer, donate, pray, or all of the above. For details, call Long Island Youth for Christ at 631 -385 -8333. That's 631 -385 -8333. Or visit liyfc .org.
That's liyfc .org.
If you love Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio, one of the best ways you can help keep the show on the air is by supporting our advertisers. One such faithful advertiser who really believes in what Chris Hansen is doing is Daniel P. Patafuco, serious injury lawyer and Christian apologist.
Dan is the president and founder of the Historical Bible Society. Their mission? To foster belief in the credibility of scripture as the written word of God. They go to various churches, schools, and institutions to publicly display a rare collection of biblical texts, along with a fascinating presentation by Mr. Patafuco demonstrating the reliability of scripture.
To advance the cause of the gospel, they created a beautiful, perfect facsimile of the genealogy of Jesus Christ from the original engravings contained in a first edition 1611 King James Bible. This 17th century hand-engraved chart shows the family tree of Jesus Christ going back to Adam and Eve.
This book is complete with gorgeous full-size illustrations of Noah's Ark and the Tower of Babel, and an explanation of why the genealogy of Jesus is so important for his claims to the throne of the universe.
Originals of this work are in museums and nobody has ever made it accessible to the public in a large book form before. You can have your own copy of this 44-page genealogy book for a donation of $35 or more.
Visit historicalbiblesociety .org. That's historicalbiblesociety .org. Thanks for helping to keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air.
I'm Dr. Joseph Piper, president and professor of systematic and homiletical theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Taylors, South Carolina, and the NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Chuck White of the First Trinity Lutheran Church in Tonawanda, New York, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.
I'm Pastor Anthony Methenia of Christ Church in Radford, Virginia, and the NASB is my Bible of.
Choice. I'm Pastor Jesse Miller of Damascus Road Christian Church in Gardnerville, Nevada,.
And the NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Bruce Bennett of Word of Truth Church in Farmerville, Long Island, New York, and the NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Rodney Brown of Metro Bible Church in Southlake, Texas, and the NASB is my Bible of.
Choice. I'm Pastor Jim Harrison of Red Mills Baptist Church in Mayapac Falls, New York,.
And the NASB is my Bible of choice. Here's a great way for your church to help keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. Pastors, are your pew Bibles tattered and falling apart? Consider restocking your pews with the NASB, and tell the publishers you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
Go to nasbible .com. That's nasbible .com to place.
Your order. Getting a driver's license, running a cash register, flipping burgers, passing sixth grade. Do you know what they all have in common? They all require training, assessments, and certifications.
But do you know what requires no training at all? Becoming a parent. My name is A .M. Brewster. I'm the president of Truth, Love, Parent, and host of its award-winning podcast. I've been a biblical family counselor since the early 2000s, and what I've discovered is that the majority of Christian parents have never been biblically equipped to do the work of the ministry in their homes.
That's why Truth, Love, Parent exists. We serve God by equipping dads and moms to be the ambassador parents God called and created them to be. We produce free parenting resources, train church leaders, and offer biblical counseling so that the next generation of dads and moms can use the scriptures to parent their children for life and godliness.
Please visit us at truthloveparent .com. Puritan Reformed is a Bible-believing, kingdom-building, devil-fighting church. We are devoted to upholding the apostolic doctrine and practice preserved in scripture alone.
Puritan Reformed teaches men to rule and lead as image-bearing prophets, priests, and kings. We teach families to worship together as families. Puritan is committed to teaching the whole counsel of God so that the earth will be filled with the knowledge of God as the waters cover the sea.
We sing the Psalms, teach the law, proclaim the gospel, make disciples, maintain discipline, and exalt Christ. This is Pastor David Reis of Puritan Reformed in Phoenix, Arizona. Join us in the glorious cause of advancing Christ's crown and covenant over the kings of the earth.
Puritan Reformed Church. Believe. Build. Fight. PuritanPHX .com.
Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said,.
Give yourself unto reading. The man who never reads will never be read. He who never quotes will never be quoted. He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he.
Has no brains of his own. You need to read. Solid Ground Christian Books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the Prince of Preachers to heart. The mission of Solid Ground Christian Books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and future, and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.
Since its beginning in 2001, Solid Ground has been committed to publish God-centered, Christ-exalting books for all ages. We invite you to go treasure hunting at Solid-Ground-Books .com. That's Solid-Ground-Books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past to present you can unearth from Solid Ground.
Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. And never forget, folks,.
Always make Solid-Ground-Books .com your very first stop for all of your gift-giving needs. They bring back into print and also publish for the first time nothing but the finest in Christian literature dating back to the 16th century Protestant Reformation, and also extending all the way forward to our modern day, including such current authors as Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries.
So please visit Solid-Ground-Books .com frequently, purchased generously. Always mention that you heard about them from Chris Arns and of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Before I return to C .R. Wiley and our discussion of his book, The Household and the War for the Cosmos, I just have a couple of very important announcements to make.
First of all, if you really love this show, folks, and you don't want it to disappear from the airwaves, I'm urging you, please go to IronSharpensIronRadio .com, click support, then click, click to donate now.
We are in urgent need of your financial help for this program. We have never had our giving from our audience bounce back to the way or to the level it once was before the COVID crisis. It seems that the insane mandates that were imposed upon our nation have perhaps ruined the livelihoods of many people that used to give regularly to our program, or at least reduced radically the income that they once enjoyed.
All's I know is that ever since COVID, the giving has gone down dramatically and has never bounced back. So please help us if you can. Go to IronSharpensIronRadio .com, click support, then click, click to donate now.
If you prefer snail mail, like many people do, mailing in a physical check to a physical address from your post office the old-fashioned way, well, there will also be a physical address that appears on your screen when you click support at IronSharpensIronRadio .com, where you can mail your checks made payable to IronSharpensIronRadio.
If you want to advertise with us, whether it is your church, parachurch ministry, your business, your private practice, like a law firm, a medical firm, or maybe it's just a special event that you want to promote, whatever it is, as long as it's compatible with what I believe, I would love to help you launch an ad campaign because we are just as much in urgent need of your advertising dollars as we are in your donations.
So send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com and put advertising in the subject line. Also, if you are giving to IronSharpensIronRadio, I try to remind my listeners as often as possible that I never want you cutting into the funds that you have set aside to give to your own church where you are a member on the Lord's Day in order to give to IronSharpensIronRadio.
In other words, never give your own church less money than you ordinarily give your church in order to bless us with a financial gift. Never, ever do that. Also, if you're really struggling to survive and make ends meet, please wait until you are more financially stable and back on your feet before you send IronSharpensIronRadio a financial gift.
There's two things that are clear in the Bible about our finances. We are commanded to provide for our church and our family. We are not commanded to provide for IronSharpensIronRadio, obviously. But if you love the show, you don't want it to disappear, and you are financially blessed above and beyond your ability to provide for church and family, you have extra money collecting interest in the bank, you have extra money for benevolent, recreational, and trivial purposes, well, please share some of that money with us so that we can continue to press on interviewing the guests that you love on the topics that you're fascinated by.
Please help us. Go to IronSharpensIronRadio .com, click support, then click click to donate now. And last but not least, if you are not a member of a Christ-honoring, biblically faithful, theologically sound, doctrinally solid church like Westminster Presbyterian Church of Vancouver, Washington, well, I have extensive lists spanning the globe of biblically faithful churches, and I've helped many people in the IronSharpensIronRadio audience all over the planet Earth find churches, sometimes even within just a couple of minutes from where they live.
And that may be you, too, no matter where in the world you live. Send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com and put I need a church in the subject line, that is, if you indeed need a church that is biblically faithful.
Chrisarnson at gmail .com, I need a church in the subject line. And that's also the email address to send in a question to C .R. Wiley, who is the author of The Household and the War for the Cosmos, which we are discussing today, chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.
We have another anonymous listener, Pastor Wiley, who is asking, I don't know how much of the topic is involved in my question, but I think that there is a strong connection. The church, it seems to me, errs on one extreme or the other when it comes to counseling married couples.
Either they protect men who are abusing their wives, or they believe that the wife is correct in every single circumstance and make an obvious effort to side with the wife. Do you think what I'm saying is accurate?
And if it is, according to your assessment, what should be done about that?
Well, that's a great question, and I think a fairly accurate observation. I've seen the same thing. And I think what should happen in any marital counseling situation is you should begin with biblical assumptions or biblical truths.
Maybe that's a better way to put it. A biblical truth is we've all sinned and fall short of the glory of God, which means that there are things that we all need to attend to in terms of our lives and how well they reflect the image of God and demonstrate the ongoing work of sanctification in our lives.
So that's a given, which means, in effect, that we shouldn't look for pure victims. At the same time, it's true that men being physically stronger and in a position sometimes taking advantage of some of the gifts that God has given them by using them in a wrong way can really do damage to women.
And so that's also something that we just need to be aware of. So when it comes to this particular matter, I think, you know, a pastor should, in his work, be clear-eyed and faithful to Scripture and apply it where it should be applied in respect to both the husband and the wife.
So no favorites. The book of Leviticus tells us that favoritism is something that shouldn't characterize our judgments. We should judge each other righteously. And the standard, of course, that we have is God's Word.
Thank you, Anonymous, and make sure you send us your full name and mailing address via email. It will not be divulged over the air. And you'll receive a free copy of The Household and the War for the Cosmos, Recovering a Christian Vision for the Family by C .R. Wiley.
Thanks to Canon Press and thanks to Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com. I want to make sure that before I return to any listener questions, that you have some time to highlight things that you definitely want to address that are primary portions of this book that you have written.
So if you could, just highlight some of those things so we make sure that we don't run out of time before you.
Cover them. Oh, you know, sure. Thanks, Chris. Well, the book actually that was inspired, or it was the occasion for the writing of the book, was some reflections on an address that I gave at a conference in Chicago.
And the conference was really marvelous. And it was one of the highlights of my life. But at the conference, Nancy Peercy was there, and along with some other people, who were people I tremendously respect.
And the nature of my talk was the recovery of piety properly understood. One of the things that characterizes our thinking about piety today is that it's become a kind of pietistic and pietism kind of thing, as opposed to what it once was.
And when we think of pietism, when we think of piety today, we think of something that is private and inward, and kind of sort of is characterized by withdrawal from the world. Whereas in the first century, piety was a social virtue.
It was something that was practiced, not just by Christians, but by even pagans, Romans in particular. The word that we have, we derive the English word piety from is the Latin pews. And piety, as it was understood in the first century, was making a grateful return to a benefactor.
So your parents are benefactors, so it's pious to respect and obey your parents. Your city leaders are benefactors, and so it's important to respect them, and give them the kind of reverence that they deserve.
And obviously the creator, the one who made everything, deserves our gratitude and our devotion. And so piety is serving and honoring and worshiping him. So that's the way piety was understood in the first century.
It was a something that pervaded all of life. And Christians, what distinguished Christians from their pagan neighbors is that they knew that Jesus is the Christ, and that he's the son of God and Lord, and consequently their gratitude is directed towards him as opposed to Caesar or the Roman pantheon of gods.
So what distinguished Christians from their pagan neighbors wasn't whether or not they believed in piety, it was who to honor, that was the question, that's what distinguished them. So the war of the cosmos that I'm describing in the book, it follows a conflict between Christians and their pagan neighbors over who's at the top, who is the Lord.
If you believe that Caesar is Lord, then you order your households in a certain way, you order your society in a certain way, but if you believe that Christ is Lord, well then your household is ordered by his law, and your community should be ordered that way by his law as well.
So that's the difference. So the war is the war between these two.
Understandings of who's on top. And is there some also disconnect that pietism has that may be involved in legalism and the mindset of even monastic evangelicalism?
Well I think yeah, I think anybody who is under the impression that we can purify ourselves by maybe separating ourselves from everything in the world and kind of disengaging from life and failing to honor God in every sphere of life like we're called to, that way of thinking about things is not healthy from just a Christian point of view, but it certainly means that we're not the kind of salt and light that we can be if we're engaged in the world in a God-honoring way.
So you think about Daniel in the Bible, I mean he honored God as a counselor in Babylon, but at the same time he honored God and worshiped him and refused to bow to the idols that he was commanded to bow to.
He didn't withdraw, in other words. His piety was practiced through giving the proper respect that the emperor or the king was due, but not giving him more than he was due, if you get my drift, and then recognizing God as the creator and the Lord who deserved what only God deserves.
And that's piety as it should be expressed and practiced in the Christian life.
All right, we have another listener with a question for you. We have CJ from Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, and CJ says, has your book received any negative backlash from those who might never call themselves feminists in the evangelical church, but in my opinion clearly fit that description?
I am dismayed at seeing how far an entrenchment the feminist movement has had, even within conservative evangelical professedly Bible-believing congregations and denominations.
Well, the short answer is yes.
Huh, that's interesting.
Yeah, and I'm not terribly surprised. I more or less expected it, but at the same time, I don't spend a lot of time worrying about it, and I don't read all the hate mail and that kind of thing. If you want to let people into your head, that's what you do.
You just spend all your time sort of arguing with them or sort of commiserating over what they've said. The book has received a lot of positive attention, and I'm grateful for that, and I think anyone who reads the book can't come away with any sense that I'm somehow misogynist or something.
I think the only way you could conclude that would be by reading things into what I say that I don't say and so forth, but anyway, the short answer is yes, I've experienced that, but you know, I'm not surprised.
Well, you have also won a free copy of The Household and the War for the Cosmos. Make sure we have your full mailing address, CJ, there in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, and I actually miss Lindenhurst.
I lived there for 10 years while I was living on Long Island before moving to here to Carlisle, Pennsylvania. When it comes to things that we can practically do in the body of Christ, not only pastors, but just people who are being good stewards of the congregations where they are members, if they see something lacking that may be making the church more open to unconsciously letting the Trojan horse of the left inside, what could we be practically doing not only to protect the church from this starting to happen, if it hasn't, but also detecting the influences of the left that may have crept in and we are unconscious of it, and how to make the transformation in our churches, how to right the wrongs which may and will no doubt step on toes and hurt people's feelings, may outrage people, may even cause a church split, but what are some of those things that we have to practically do, not only those who are leaders in the church, but also just your ordinary Bible-believing members?
I think Bible-believing.
Members should be in prayer for the pastor and the elders of their churches. They feel a lot of pressure from different sources, different places that maybe people even in the congregation are unaware that their pastor is or their elders are feeling pressure from, so just be careful that they'll be faithful and demonstrate some backbone and stand for the truth.
I think, too, reading good books and encouraging other people to read good books, particularly those writers who have demonstrated an ability to dissect the left and help you understand it. An example would be Nancy Peercy.
Nancy's done a good job on that score. A person like Carl Truman, if you're looking for a really challenging intellectual survey of what has gone on in the culture of the West over the last 300 years, Carl's recent book on the subject, The Rise and Triumph of the Modern Self, is a first-class read.
He does a tremendous job of laying it out, but then there are just other great writers who do similar things that will help you understand, okay, what is the nature of the threat? Because I think that's often missed.
What I think can happen is because people aren't familiar with the philosophies that inform leftism, they might find themselves drawn in by leftist rhetoric because it appeals to certain things they think are valuable, for example, protecting women or making sure that people who are ethnic minorities don't experience discrimination, things like that.
So, you know, you see these people talking about those themes and those matters all the time. You're sympathetic to the concerns, and the next thing you know, you're reading the stuff, and then you kind of have a kind of gateway drug into some more serious leftism.
And just in case anybody is wondering, we have lots of, you know, it's not as though this stuff hasn't been around a while, and we don't see where it leads. We know where it leads, so it's not as though this is an experiment yet to be performed.
We've seen denominations destroyed. We've seen countries go from being prosperous to just terrible places to live because people have systematically and thoroughly applied what leftists tell us should be applied.
So anyway, so good reading, prayer, and then, you know, occasionally if you feel like you are in a position of authority or have the trust of leadership conversations, just raising concerns, that kind of stuff.
Now, if you are an elder or, you know, a pastor, you really probably know that there are these resources out there, but perhaps you're not taking advantage of them. You're not reading the things that would be helpful to, you know, help you see and diagnose how the church is being compromised by these forces.
So you should do some more reading, and you ought to pray as well, and align yourself. Find people who are helpful and are, I guess you could say, colleagues in arms, would be a good way to put it, in your church, your denomination, in your community, and so forth.
So those are some.
Suggestions. We have an anonymous listener, another anonymous listener. We're having quite a number of them today. An anonymous listener who says, I believe it is very important and vital for the sake of obedience to Christ, first and foremost, to press forward, to make changes in a congregation where errors have crept in and had a foothold.
But don't you believe it is extremely dangerous to, for the first time, bring up complaints about certain things, especially when they involve certain people in the church, publicly at church business meetings, rather than first privately having a conversation with the individuals that you think were those that helped to usher in negative beliefs and practices?
I think that this could ruin a church by publicly bringing up things that could have been resolved if we conduct ourselves biblically, as the guideline has been set out for us in the God-breathed words in the book of Matthew, and we could even win over a brother or sister by discussing these things with love and charity and grace over a meal.
What are your thoughts? Well, I think that writer is.
Absolutely right. I've got no hesitation agreeing with everything that was said. I think it's very important to follow the biblical pattern, and I think going into a person that you believe has stumbled into error is a very important thing to do, and so do it.
And do it privately first, and if that doesn't make a difference, then you find a brother that can accompany you and continue that conversation, and then you take it from there.
Yeah, I think that Christians are far too prone, and it may, I mean, I don't know this for a fact, I don't know if anybody could doubt this for a fact, but I think gossip may be one of the most prevalent sins that Christians are guilty of committing, because we very often candy-coat that sin under the guise of we are trying to do something positive and right and all that kind of thing.
But gossip is one of, it's listed among the sins, the very sins that we are warning the church about today that are destroying the family and destroying local churches. It's listed among sins that send people to hell.
So in fact, I don't know if you're familiar with a wonderful book written by the late Jerry Bridges. I had the opportunity and privilege and honor to interview him on several occasions, and on one of those occasions was to discuss his book, Respectful Sins, I believe it was called.
And he was using that title tongue-in-cheek, not that any sin is respectful, but that many people in the church have made certain sins respectful, even in conservative evangelical fundamentalist churches.
Right. Yeah, bearing false witness is what comes to mind, one of the Ten Commandments. Yeah, I think that's absolutely right. And it's a hard thing to control the tongue. We're told that by James. So it shouldn't surprise us that our mouths run ahead of our heads.
And when we find ourselves talking about stuff we shouldn't talk about or saying things about people we.
Shouldn't say, we should do what we can to make it right. Amen. We are going now to our final commercial break, and if anybody has any question that they want to ask of my guest, I would strongly urge you to send it in very quickly because we are rapidly running out of time.
The email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.
Remember, only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Don't go away. We'll be right back with C .R. Wiley right after these messages.
From our sponsors. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here. I'm very excited to announce.
That my longtime friend Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again for the G3 National Conference. That's Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd.
On a theme that I have been preaching, teaching, writing about, and defending in live public debates for most of my life, the sovereignty of God. I'll be joined on the speaking roster by Steve Lawson, Voti Baucom, Paul Washer, Virgil Walker, Scott Anuel, and Josh Bice, founder of G3 Ministries.
And there's more great news. Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio can get you a 30 discount off the registration fee. Go to g3min .org, that's g3min .org, and enter promo code G3ISIR. That's G3ISIR for the 30 discount.
Chris Arnson, I look forward to seeing you all Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd for the G3 National Conference in Atlanta, Georgia on the sovereignty of God. Make sure you stop by the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Exhibitor booth and say hi to Chris Arnson while you're there.
Go to g3min .org and enter promo code G3ISIR for your 30 discount off the registration fee.
I'm Brian McLaughlin, president of the SecureComm Group and an enthusiastic supporter of Chris.
Arnson's Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Program. The SecureComm Group provides the highest level of security, close-circuit television, access control, and communication systems for Manhattan's top residential buildings, as well as churches, commercial properties, municipalities, and more.
That's 718 -353 -3355. Or visit securecommgroup .com. That's securecommgroup .com. This is Brian McLaughlin of the Advertisers to Keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the Air. Puritan Reformed is a Bible-believing,.
Kingdom-building, devil-fighting church. We are devoted to upholding the apostolic doctrine and practice preserved in Scripture alone. Puritan Reformed teaches men to rule and lead as image-bearing prophets, priests, and kings.
We teach families to worship together as families. Puritan is committed to teaching the whole counsel of God so that the earth will be filled with the knowledge of God as the waters cover the sea. We sing the Psalms, teach the law, proclaim the gospel, make disciples, maintain discipline, and exalt Christ.
This is Pastor David Reis of Puritan Reformed in Phoenix, Arizona. Join us in the glorious cause of advancing Christ's crown and covenant over the kings of the earth. Puritan Reformed Church. Believe.
Build. Fight. PuritanPHX .com.
Dr. Joseph Piper. I'm Dr. Joseph Piper, President Emeritus and Professor of Systematic and Applied Theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary. Every Christian who's serious about the Deformed Faith and the Westminster Standards should have and use the eight-volume commentary on the Theology and Ethics of the Westminster Larger Catechism titled Authentic Christianity by Dr. Joseph Morecraft.
It is much more than an exposition of the larger catechism. It is a thoroughly researched work that utilizes biblical exegesis as well as historical and systematic theology. Dr. Morecraft is pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, and I urge everyone looking for a biblically faithful church in that area to visit that fine congregation.
For details on the eight-volume commentary, go to westminstercommentary .com, westminstercommentary .com. For details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit heritagepresbyterianchurch .com, heritagepresbyterianchurch .com.
Please tell Dr. Morecraft and the Saints at Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, that Dr. Joseph Piper of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary sent you.
If you love Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, one of the best ways you can help keep the show on the air is by supporting our advertisers. One such faithful advertiser who really believes in what Chris Hansen is doing is Daniel P. Buttafuoco, serious injury lawyer and Christian apologist.
Dan is the president and founder of the Historical Bible Society. Their mission? To foster belief in the credibility of scripture as the written word of God. They go to various churches, schools, and institutions to publicly display a rare collection of biblical texts, along with a fascinating presentation by Mr. Buttafuoco demonstrating the reliability of scripture.
This book is complete with gorgeous full-size illustrations of Noah's Ark and the Tower of Babel and an explanation of why the genealogy of Jesus is so important for his claims to the throne of the universe.
Visit historicalbiblesociety .org. That's historicalbiblesociety .org. Thanks for helping to keep Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio on the air.
This is Pastor Bill Sousa, Grace Church at Franklin, here in the beautiful state of Tennessee. Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio financially.
Grace Church at Franklin is an independent autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in scripture through the person and work of our Lord Jesus Christ.
And of course the end of which we strive is the glory of God. If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior.
Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin. Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org. That's gracechurchatfranklin .org. This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our sovereign Lord, God, Savior, and King Jesus Christ today and always.
James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here. If you've watched my Dividing.
Line webcast often enough, you know I have a great love for getting Bibles and other documents vital to my ministry rebound to preserve and ensure their longevity. And besides that, they feel so good.
I'm so delighted I discovered Post-Tenebrous Lux Bible rebinding. No radio ad will be long enough to sing their praises sufficiently, but I'll give it a shot. Jeffrey Rice of Post-Tenebrous Lux is a remarkably gifted craftsman and artisan.
All his work is done by hand, from the cutting to the pleating of corners to the perimeter stitching. Jeffrey uses the finest in buttery soft imported leathers in a wide variety of gorgeous colors, like the turquoise goatskin tanned in Italy used for my Nestle All in 28th edition with a navy blue goatskin inside liner and the electric blue goatskin from a French tannery used to rebind a Reformation study Bible I used as a gift.
The silver gilding he added on the edges has a stunning mirror finish resembling highly polished chrome. Jeffrey will customize your rebinding to your specifications and even emboss your logo into the leather, making whatever he rebinds a one-of-a-kind work of art.
For more details on Post-Tenebrous Lux Bible rebinding, go to ptlbiblerebinding .com. That's ptlbiblerebinding .com.
I'm Pastor Nate Pikowitz of Harvest Bible Church in Gilmont and Ironworks, New Hampshire, and the NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Rich Jensen of Hope Reform Baptist Church in.
Quorum, New York, and the NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor. Sule Prince of Oakwood Wesleyan Church in Toronto, Ontario, Canada, and the NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor.
John Samson of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona, and the NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor.
Chuck Volo of New Life Community Church in Kingsville, Maryland, and the NASB is my Bible.
Of choice. I'm Pastor Steve Herford of Eastport Baptist Church in Jacksonville, Florida, and the NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Roy Owens Jr. of the Church in Friendship in Hockley, Texas,.
And the NASB is my Bible of choice. Here's a great way for your church to help keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. Pastors, are your pew Bibles tattered and falling apart? Consider restocking your pews with the NASB, and tell the publishers you heard about them from Chris Arnson on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
Your order. Hi, this is John Samson, Pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona, taking a moment.
Of your day to talk about Chris Arnson and the Iron Sharpens Iron podcast. I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity. He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key doctrines of the Christian faith.
I've always been happy to point people to this podcast knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the internet where folk won't be led astray. I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide.
This is a day of great spiritual compromise, and yet God has raised Chris up for just such a time. Knowing this, it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances.
I'm pleased to do so, and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting Iron Sharpens Iron financially. Would you consider sending either a one-time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry?
I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would. All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com where you can click support. That's ironsharpensironradio .com. Hi, I'm Buzz Taylor.
Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio has had a long-time partnership with our friends at CVBBS, which stands for Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service. They specialize in supplying Reformed and Puritan books and Bibles at discount prices that make them affordable for everyone.
CVBBS has been a family-owned book service since 1987, operating out of Carlisle, Pennsylvania. They seek to bring you the best available Christian books and Bibles at the best possible prices. Unlike other book sites, they make no effort to provide every book that is available or popular because, frankly, much of what is being printed is not worth your time.
That means you can get to the good stuff faster. It also means you don't have to worry about being assaulted by the pornographic, heretical, and otherwise faith-insulting materials promoted by the secular book vendors.
Browse the pages at ease, shop at your leisure, and purchase with confidence at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service. Order online at CVBBS .com. That's CVBBS .com. Or you can order by phone at 1 -800 -656 -0231.
That's 1 -800 -656 -0231. Please let our friends at CVBBS know that you heard about them on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio.
Getting a driver's license, running a cash register, flipping burgers, passing sixth grade—do you know what they all have in common? They all require training, assessments, and certifications. But do you know what requires no training at all?
Becoming a parent. My name is A .M. Brewster. I'm the president of Truth Love Parent and host of its award-winning podcast. I've been a biblical family counselor since the early 2000s, and what I've discovered is that the majority of Christian parents have never been biblically equipped to do the work of the ministry in their homes.
That's why Truth Love Parent exists. We serve God by equipping dads and moms to be the ambassador parents God called and created them to be. We produce free parenting resources, train church leaders, and offer biblical counseling so that the next generation of dads and moms can use the scriptures to parent their children for life and godliness.
Please visit us.
At TruthLoveParent .com. I'm Dr. Tony Costa, professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary. I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love—Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Corham, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Jansen and Christopher McDowell.
It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God like the dear saints at Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Corham, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in His Holy Word, and to enthusiastically proclaim Christ Jesus the King and His doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island, and beyond.
I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love, as I have. For more information on Hope Reformed Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.
That's hopereformedli .net. Or call 631 -696 -5711. That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island, New York, that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.
As host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations. A church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey, pastored by Alan Dunn.
Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's God's prerogative to determine how He shall be worshiped and how He shall be represented in the world. They believe churches need to turn to the Bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship God in spirit and truth.
Grace Covenant Baptist Church endeavors to maintain a God-centered focus. Reading, preaching, and hearing the Word of God, singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, baptism, and communion are the scriptural elements of their corporate worship, performed with faith, joy, and sobriety.
Discover more about Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey at gcbcnj .squarespace .com. That's gcbcnj .squarespace .com. Or call them at 908 -996 -7654. That's 908 -996 -7654. Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church.
On Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. And please make note, folks, of the new website for Grace Covenant.
Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey. It is gcbc-nj .org. Gcbc-nj .org. So disregard the website that was provided in that commercial. Gcbc-nj .org is the new website. Well, Pastor Chris Wiley, we have time for one more question.
And again, and it's an anonymous listener who says, do you know of any good helpful resources for Christians who find themselves in the state of being divorced, and often because of the fact that this occurred before their rebirth?
Wow, that's a great question, and I wish I had something that came to mind that would, that kind of fits the, is a good answer, but I just don't. Generally speaking, much of the stuff that you get in Christian bookstores concerning marriage has to do with an approach to marriage that I talked about earlier, which is kind of unconsciously informed by secular assumptions about the meaning of marriage.
But I think, you know, this is something that is, if somebody is, who's listening to the show, has a great resource, I hope that person will let you know, Chris, and you can pass along that.
Information. I just kind of drawn a blank, I'm afraid. Yeah, and I'm shocked that I just typed in divorce into the search engine of my website and did not find any interviews on that, and that doesn't seem to be right, because I recall some.
I have to ask my webmaster about that. But if you could, in approximately two minutes time, just summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners about the household and the war for the cosmos.
Well, I hope that they will at least consider reading it. The purpose I was pursuing when I was writing it was to put our understanding of our households within a larger framework. As I noted earlier in our show, I think our tendency is to think about households within the framework of our desires.
And while it's certainly the case that, you know, we can have good desires and there are very many legitimate things that marriage does that addresses our needs as men and women, there's still a larger framework for thinking about the household that's been neglected and desperately needs to be recovered.
And that'll, I think, that larger framework will help us press through the challenges that we face as men and women who are married, but also give us a sense that our little marriage is participating in a much larger story that is really the story of the world.
It's a story of redemption. It's the story of God saving his church and glorifying it. So I think all those things will be helpful to anybody who cares about.
The state of marriage in our society. Any speaking engagements or any activities that you want to.
Inform our listeners about? Well, in fact, I'm going to be in Shelbyville, Kentucky, right outside of Louisville next month. And then I do a lot of traveling. I'm going to be down in Alabama a couple of times.
I think I remember correctly, September or October. So there are just, I wish I could think of the locations and the dates and so forth, but I just don't have that information in front of me. But if you're interested in kind of following my travels and so forth, you can find me on various social media platforms.
Well, I'm going to have to let.
Jerry Dorris, who I have interviewed on this program, a pastor of Reformation Church of Shelbyville, Kentucky, I'll have to let him know about your speaking engagement. And perhaps he can attend and encourage folks in his congregation to as well.
Well, I want to thank you so much, Pastor Wiley, for being such a superb guest. And I want to remind our listeners that if you want to purchase this book, The Household and the War for the Cosmos, Recovering a Christian Vision for the Family, by our guest, C .R. Wiley, go to canonpress .com, canonpress .com.
And remember, canon in this context is spelt with one N, or actually two Ns, but not together, not next to each other, c-a-n-o-n-press .com. And also, if you want more information about the church where our guest, Pastor Wiley, is the pastor, go to solocristo .org, solocristo .org, and that's the website of Westminster Presbyterian Church in Vancouver, Washington.
And if you are in that area, please let us know that you have visited this church and give us a report. I want to thank all of you who have listened today, especially those who took the time to write, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.