Jeremiah Wright and Black Liberation Theology

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

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Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed

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Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with dr.

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White call now It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll -free across the

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United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five Three three three four one and now with today's topic.

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Here is James white And good morning. Welcome to the dividing line.

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I was just rushing around like anything Would have had it all done in time

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Except I don't have a flash video player on this laptop I got the file down and then

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I realized oh, no, I have to I have to convert it so I am still running about like a chicken my head cut off here because I wanted to play for you and I will play for you a

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Video clip hopefully rich won't pull it out till it's converted. Yes. Good. That would really be a bad thing but I Want to play some some material for you today and I was just just working as fast as my little not overly fast connection

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Sometimes having the speed I have at home would be useful here I only get 60 70 80, you know kbps down and I get 270 at home

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So I would have would have been there if we'd had that but unfortunately Just didn't get it done.

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So what I what I want to attempt to do today is

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Read for you some material that well, I think at least

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Americans Should be interested in I I confess that maybe if you are outside Of the

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United States, you won't be quite as interested in all of this as Americans would be interested in this But the fact the matter is religion has very much entered the stage of the political campaign

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Taking place in the United States, and it certainly is the case that the the

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American president is an important person all around the world one of the scariest things

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I saw in the 2004 election Was when people start talking about how

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Europeans Should have a vote in the American presidential election

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I'm sorry. I know some wonderful European people, but on the whole European society as a whole is dead

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It's just twitching a few last times before it becomes

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Europa Stan and And The fact that Europeans detest

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God's law as a whole Detest their own history detest their own nations and in essence put up with anything except What is true or just or honest or good or so on so forth?

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That have them have anything to do with elections over here is just really really really bad thing But I'm sure there's lots of folks over here that would like that So I imagine there are people all around the world that are interested in the elections and what has happened in the

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United States has been that Starting about what was it a month month and a half ago or so all of a sudden

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You can't you can't get good preaching on on Fox News or CNN anything else like that Except when

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John MacArthur shows up on Larry King You're not going to get much accomplished along those lines

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But all of a sudden we started seeing a lot of really bad preaching and that from the United Church of Christ Which of course is the same denomination?

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that Barry Lynn is an ordained minister in that should give you some idea of The perspective of this denomination, which is far far far far far removed

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From being anywhere near Biblical in any way shape or form in its viewpoints and its theology and so on and so forth and so We started seeing the the

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Reverend Jeremiah, right Over and over and over and over and over again on on the television and I personally

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You know at first. It was just like I didn't honestly expect this to be a really big thing

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But then I started listening and I started Talking to some other folks and while I was back on Long Island I had the opportunity of speaking with a pastor there and he mentioned that Reverend Wright had been on Hannity and Combs About a year earlier and had made direct reference

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To certain sources of his theology and this is where I come in because now we're talking theology now we're talking claims to things that are biblical and And so I happen what

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I have here is the clip from a portion of the clip from Hannity and Combs and I want you to listen to what

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Jeremiah Wright is saying and Listen to whom he refers

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Hannity if Hannity really wants to understand black Theology if he wants to understand where Jeremiah Wright is coming from Listen to whom he he makes reference

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Wright has been encouraged to avoid interviews He did make a brief appearance on Fox's Hannity and Combs.

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He doesn't know anything more about theology than I know about brain surgery So let me finish.

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No, here's my point to you. You're not going to talk about Theology in context if you're not going to talk about liberation theology that came out of the 60s systematized black liberation theology

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Started with Jim Cone in 1968 reverend and the writings of Cone and the writings of Dwight Hopkins and the writings of womanist theologians and Asian theologians and Hispanic theologians reverend

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I gotta get this then you then you can't talk about the black values Listen, I'm a you know liberation theology, sir, you know liberation.

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I actually studied. I studied theology I went to a seminar and I studied What you're calling black liberation, but let me get my question

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No black the reverend, I'm gonna give you a chance to answer you books. Have you reverend?

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Okay, there you go, how many of Cone's books have you read that was

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Jeremiah, right? I was over a year ago as I understand it and that was before all the clips hit and all the rest that stuff and So I I ordered

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Cone's books and Didn't really do anything for a while. I actually plopped him on Rich's desk and he didn't do anything with me either

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In fact, most of books I plop Good you know, but yeah, so I Was watching this same video

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I was just quoting from and They started talking about the stuff that is actually said in these books and I couldn't believe it

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So I started I started looking through this particular book and this one is called black theology and black power by James H Cone James H Cone is

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Charles a Briggs distinguished professor of systematic theology at Union Theological Seminary in New York a very well -known seminary

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So far off to the left that it should be on Mars theologically but that's that's where it is and And So this is under black studies and theology

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Orbis books from New York and so this morning I started looking through it yesterday and So this this morning

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I started marking some things down and I just sort of started at a particular place and just started reading and I was just absolutely amazed at what

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I Saw I started around page 130 or so. I started marking things and I'm just gonna read them for you and We'll see what you think of the theology of black theology

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Since it seeks to interpret black power religiously black theology endeavors to reorder the

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Christian tradition in View of the black predicament and to destroy the influence of heretical white

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American Christianity I'm a little bit of a loss.

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It will be a little bit of loss throughout this reading To understand

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See, I don't think as a racist. I can't think as a racist and What I've read here is one of the most racist books ever seen

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All you gotta do is take out the word black put in the word white and you'll see exactly what I mean If Someone were talking about the view of the white predicament and to destroy the influence of radical black

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American Christianity Everybody, you know, whoever this is be fired never work again anywhere in the

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Western world But just change the words around everything is okay. See that's part of the great hypocrisy of Western culture today, but see

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I can't think this way and the reason I can't think this way is personal The very do you remember your first friend?

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Do you think think back? Who is your first friend outside of your family not brothers or sisters? Who is your first friend a person outside your family unit?

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Didn't didn't sleep in your house went and slept in some some other house. So this is someone outside your family unit

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Who was your first friend? my first friend was named Kevin and And Kevin was a

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Negro that's what we called him. That's what he called himself and he was Medium -brown

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I would say with an afro. So his hair looked a lot different minded, but he was my friend and He was my first friend and I remember meeting

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Kevin's parents and Kevin's dad and I remember I'm about three years old

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Three to four years old both all the way through five. That's when we moved and that's when I didn't see Kevin anymore.

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But um When I met his dad, he scared me to death because he was huge He was a big black cop.

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So he had a gun and he had a badge and uniform and He was as black as midnight

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I mean you see some of the black Africans have come over and where you don't there is not a gradation here it pure black no nothing and that's what he was he was just as black as could be and then

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I met Kevin's mom and She was almost albino white. I Mean, this was the palest whitest woman

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I'd ever seen So my first friend was a different color than me and he had hair that I couldn't begin to understand

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I really didn't give much thought because we were playing with with my cars and he played with cars the way

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I play with cars and we played GI Joe and that was just all there was to it and I didn't give any thought to it and His dad was pitch black and his mom was lily -white and that was okay with me, too

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I was too young to realize that in the mid -1960s. That was pretty unusual So you see

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I can't think this way I'm sorry, but the idea the idea of white and black and and seeing them as separate and this the deep

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Racism of Cone and these people I don't understand it. I can't I can't think this way because I that I got

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I guess I just got kicked out of the proper way of thinking back when I was kid when I Was very very young and so you know when

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I think white American Christianity what on earth is that there is no such thing Sorry, you may want to talk about what is it?

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And you're gonna see that it's only get worse and worse and I get more and more frustrated. I read this stuff. I Continue on page 131 black theology advocates a religious system of values based on the experiences of the oppressed

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Because it believes white values must either be revolutionized or eliminated. There is a strong sense of violence in this book

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There is a strong sense of threat There is a strong sense of violence in this book.

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I know it's supposed to be a Christian book of theology No, it's heresy. That's what I'm talking about. It's pure simple heresy needs to identify what it is.

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Don't call this stuff Christianity because it's not Christianity is not a racist religion. And if you try to appropriate it to promote your racism

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I'll be just as angry with the the white nutcase kkk as With the black nutcase kkk.

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It doesn't matter to me. It's all heresy. Don't call it biblical There's nearly male to female bond or free

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Jew or Gentile You're all one in Christ Jesus and you want to try to make a Christianity out of your race.

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That's called heresy Okay, that's against the gospel. I'm gonna stand against it Whatever else you want to call it.

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That's all there is to it So it goes on here This this term oppressed

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These folks refer themselves as slaves My goodness this right has a house that I couldn't even pay the insurance on and And he's a slave

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What I don't get this. I'm sorry. My folks came here my we traced my genealogy back and on my father's side

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My folks came here after the war of northern aggression The Civil War whatever you want to call the thing

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They came here after that they were poor they were dirt farmers for crying out loud from Scotland Don't hold me accountable for stuff.

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I had nothing to do with I've never owned a slave and I don't know anybody who's ever been one and People who want to perpetuate this

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I just I just go why I Mean, it would be like me trying to build my entire identity around around the

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English Persecution of Scottish people 500 years ago You know

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Making up a whole new Christianity It is absurd But that's what's being presented unbelievable such a value system means of course and end the influence of white seminaries and Their middle -class white ideas about God Christ and the church

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This is not necessary this listen this this does not necessarily mean burning of their buildings with Molotov cocktails

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What is meant is a removal of the oppressive ideas from the black community which the seminaries perpetuate?

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We must replace them with black consciousness. That is with Daniel Nathanael Paul Daniel Payne Nat Turner Marcus Garvey Elijah Muhammad and Malcolm X Instead of having courses dealing with the theology of Reinhold Niebuhr or Rudolf Bultmann or Emil Bruner Man, did

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I get all that stuff at fuller? We need to deal with the theology of Henry Garnett and other black revolutionaries

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Yee -haw Well even there, you know, I wouldn't mind getting rid of most of those guys myself the being the liberal ones.

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I continue on page 134 black theology believes that we are on the threshold of a new order and the order of a new black community the black power movement is in a is a

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Transition in the black community from non being to being in the old order black people were not allowed to be human

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We were what white America permitted us to be nothing's We talk we took on false identities which destroyed our real selves our beautiful black selves

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The new order partially realized now, but not fully consummated is an order which affirms black

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Self -identity again, just take the word black out and put anything else in you want white brown green

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Asian Chinese Mexican, I don't care stick it in there and you'll hear what's being said

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This is racism pure and simple going under the name of Christianity page 135

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It is a theology black theology Which confronts white society as the racist

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Antichrist Communicating to the oppressor that nothing will be spared in the fight for freedom

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Same page black theology believes the problem of racism will not be solved through talk but through action

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The next subtitle is revolution Page 137 black power seeks to change the structure of the black community its thought forms values culture.

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It tells black people to love themselves and By so doing confront white racism with a mode of behavior inimical to everything white

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That's racism The revolutionary attitude of black theology stems not only from the need of black people to defend themselves in the presence of white oppression

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But also from its identity with biblical theology check this out Like biblical theology listen to this it affirms the absolute sovereignty of God over his creation

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This means that ultimate allegiance belongs only to God therefore black people must be taught Not to be disturbed about revolution or civil disobedience if the law violates

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God's purpose for man The Christian man is obligated by a freedom grounded in the creator to break all laws which contradict human dignity

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Through disobedience to the state he affirms his allegiance to God as creator and his willingness to behave as if he believes it

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Civil disobedience is a duty in a racist society That's page 137 just in case you wanted to hear the sovereignty of God grossly misused

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Page 139 these questions are not easy to answer the real danger of these questions. This is the question is violence

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These questions are not easy to answer the real danger of these questions is the implied literalism in them Let me back up give you more context.

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He talks about Jesus's statements about non -violence and He's now responding to Jesus's statements about non -violence

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The real danger of these questions is the implied literalism in them like the fundamentalist

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Who stressed the verbal inspiration of Scripture, and we certainly know what the United Church of Christ thinks about that?

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This view suggests that ethical questions dealing with violence can be solved by acts asking what would

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Jesus do? We cannot solve ethical questions the 20th century by looking at what

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Jesus did in the first Our choices are not the same as his

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Being Christian does not mean following in his steps His steps are not ours and thus we are placed in an existential

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Situation in which we are forced to decide without knowing what Jesus would do

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The Christian does not ask what Jesus would do as if Jesus were confined to the first century

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He asks what is he doing? Where is he at work? And even though these are the right questions? They cannot be answered once and for all

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Page 141 While America is the richest country in the world as a result of the involuntary servitude of blacks and the annihilation of Indians This country persists in expecting black people to accept their ideals of freedom and democracy

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That's one of the things just drives me nuts about racism Not only do racists insist upon making themselves the constant victims of everything

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But they in doing so take away the fact that my forebears Lived as dirt poor people to build up their own wealth and they didn't do it on the back of Blacks or Indians and it is insulting to me

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For people to insist that they did it's a lie. First of all, it requires changing history.

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It's dishonest But it's also exceptionally insulting it is offensive to me and since you never want to offend anybody

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Well, unless you're a white Christian, I guess I'm still going to lodge my offense page 142

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It does not matter Listen to this. It does not matter how many gains are made in civil rights

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Progress is irrelevant The face of the black revolutionary will always be there as Long as white people persist in defining the boundary of black being

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It is the price one pays For oppression those sound like I'm pretty threatening words to you.

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They do to me If a white person said it changed the words around they'd probably brought up on hate crimes charges

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Yep, but we live in the West and the West Is filled with hypocrisy page 143 whether the

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American system is beyond redemption We will have to wait and see but we can be certain that black patience has run out and unless white

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America Responds positively to the theory and activity of black power.

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And by the way black power is always capitalized in this book Just like names of deity and Unless white

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America Responds positively to the theory and activity of black power Then a bloody protracted civil war is inevitable inevitable

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Now remember Did we not listen to Jeremiah, right

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How many books by Cohn have you read? How many books by Cohn have you read? You can't understand us unless you read the books by Cohn.

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I'm reading the books by Cohn This is what's preached in Trinity United Church Christ in Chicago That's what he preaches that's what he has said he has not been shy about this

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Let me read it again Where the American system is beyond redemption, we will have to wait and see but we can be certain that Black patience has run out and unless white

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America responds positively to the theory and activity of black power capitalized

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Then a bloody protect protracted civil war is inevitable

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There have occasionally been revolutions massive redistributions of power without warfare

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It is passionately to be hoped that this can be one of them the decision lies with white

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America and Not least with white Americans who speak the name of Christ page 143 black theology and black power by dr.

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James H Cohn the man Demanded by Reverend Jeremiah right to be read to understand his theology and his teachings

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I have a question here because when when I hear the word theology and somebody's saying this is my theology

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I keep looking for their definition or their view of God in there and I don't hear that being addressed except perhaps in one area you mentioned that the term black power is

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Capitalized and I wonder are they looking at? Black power as the definition of No, no the only relevant, you know, you'd have to read the whole book, but the only relevant materials that I've encountered has been the assertion that You know if if God that God is for the blacks that they are the elect and Since God is for people who are oppressed and suffering they're oppressed and suffering and God is for them

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I've got more to read. I'm not done. I know it's I know it's getting close to break But I got more to read it. I'm not done bring me bring this down so I can find that clip again

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I want to I want to make sure to to to have that ready to ready to play but I've got

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I've got more stuff here to to give you because it's It's pretty amazing to me

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What what is really to be found in in this work? Let me Let me read you some more

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Uh, that was on page 143 now under the topic reconciliation

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Reconciliation page 144 white people have short memories white people have short memories again, if a

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Conservative were to reverse the words and say the same words. They would be out of any political race therein

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What do you mean white people have short memories? Well, you don't remember slavery, yeah,

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I wasn't there and neither were you You've never been owned as a slave. I've never owned one and It is pure hypocrisy

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It is absurdity people of morality must stand up and identify this as the immoral thing that it is

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It's wrong To continue to perpetuate this it's evil

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Call it what it is people First let me say page 144 first.

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Let me say it reconciliation on white racist terms is Impossible since it would crush the dignity of black people

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Under these conditions blacks must treasure listen this this is this is supposed to be Christianity Under these conditions blacks must treasure their hostility

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Bring it fully into consciousness as an irreducible quality of their identity

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If White people insist on laying the ground rules for reconciliation, which can only mean black people denying the beauty of their blackness

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Then black people must do everything within their power to destroy the white thing.

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That's what says the white thing. I Don't know what the white thing is either, but that's what it says

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Black people can only speak of reconciliation when the black community is permitted to do its thing

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The black community has experienced the crushing white thing too long

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Therefore black theology believes that in order for reconciliation to be meaningful and productive black people must have room to do their thing

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The black community itself must lay down the rules of the game White oppressors are incompetent to dictate the terms of reconciliation because they are enslaved by their own racism and Will inevitably seek to base the terms on their right to play

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God in human relationships The history of slavery and Jim Crow and integration efforts render white renders white people virtually incapable of knowing even how to talk to black people as persons

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I'm on page 145 now It is this fact that nullifies the good intentions of concerned white religious people

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Who insist that they are prepared to relate to black people as human beings?

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This man does not believe that white people can interact with black people as human beings. I'm telling you

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I have never Encountered a white racist any more racist than this man is as a black racist

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It is incredible to me it is offensive to me that this kind of stuff is

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Pandered to in theological seminaries as if it has something to do with Christianity Just disgusting to me absolutely disgusting.

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I continue on They simply do not know how since racism is inseparable from the history of America and Since practically all white people in this country are taught from birth to treat blacks as things

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Black theology must counsel black people to be suspicious of all whites who want to be friends of black people

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Therefore the real question is not whether black theology sees rate sees reconciliation as an end but rather on whose terms we are to be reconciled my

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Goodness, I'm I hope you feel the very same revulsion at this

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That I feel when I hear Ignorant white racists. I mean at least many of the white racists are just dumb

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I mean, let's be honest about it. We've seen some of these folks. They ain't smart.

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This man's not stupid and His racism goes far beyond pure bias and bigotry to his entire worldview

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At least you can say some white racists don't even know what a worldview is This is scary this this is frightening stuff

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I continue on page 145 The problem of reconciliation is the oppressors problem

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Being accustomed to defining human relations between themselves and the slaves on I it terms

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They naturally think that they have monopoly on truth and right behavior But when the slaves begin to say no to the

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God behavior of the masters the masters are surprised my Goodness people there haven't been slaves and masters since anybody listening to me had been alive

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Why do you insist upon making it? So You're the one who's perpetuating this you're the one that's creating this my goodness, how can any man call himself a

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Christian and Speak like this. I don't comprehend it Unbelievable Unbelievable page 147

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We get we get to a Bible verse. I was looking for Bible verses. I want to be able to talk about the

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Bible here Do not misunderstand me Black theology is a theology which takes seriously

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God's reconciling act in Jesus Christ In fact the heart of the New Testament message is the gospel reconciliation as st.

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Paul says God was in Christ Reconciling the world to himself 2nd Corinthians 5 19

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But here's where I should have queued up the Twilight Zone music

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Among other things this means that the wall of hostility is broken down between blacks and whites

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Making color irrelevant to man's essential nature But you knew there had to be a but after all the other stuff we've read because up to that point he's exactly right

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There is no room for racism there is no room for you talking about the beauty of blackness but in a white racist society black theology believes that the biblical doctrine of Reconciliation can be made a reality only when white people are prepared to address black men as Black men and not as some grease painted form of white humanity

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Black theology will not respond positively to whites who insist on making blacks as white as possible by deemphasizing their blackness and stressing the irrelevance of color while really living as racists as Long as whites live like white people through marriage

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Schools neighborhood power, etc black people must use blackness as the sole criterion for dialogue

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What do you say to this kind of stuff? How do you reason with people who have created an entire worldview?

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based upon blackness and whiteness I Don't know what they do with Asians Mexicans Because it just Reality defies this kind of simplicity.

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That's the that's the whole Horrible nature of racism. It is so stupidly simplistic

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It's always been what's stupid about racism And I don't care what color you are if you're a racist you're looking at the world in really really simplistic terms

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Hi page 149 By the way, the last quote went on to 148 if you're keeping track and would like to read for yourself

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Which I invite you to do I wouldn't make any of this stuff up. I couldn't couldn't believe it existed when we analyze the black -white relationship in the 20th century in the light of God's Reconciling work in Jesus Christ.

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The message is clear. What do you think the message is folks? For black people.

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It means that God has reconciled us to an acceptance of our blackness So it says

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What's the message of reconciliation in Jesus Christ? Is it redemption from sin? Justification the the people of God coming together as one no, no, no, no, no for black people

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It means that God has reconciled us to an acceptance of our blackness if the death resurrection of Christ means anything

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It means that the blackness of black people is a creation of God himself Let me repeat that because I honestly don't think that any

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Rational person on the planet can begin to understand that one if the death resurrection of Christ means anything

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It means that the blackness of black people is a creation of God himself God came in the world nor the black people

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Need not be ashamed of who they are in Christ.

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We not only know who we are but who God is and This is the heart of the biblical message.

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Okay, we continue down on page 149 The task of black theology is to inform black people

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That because of God's act in Christ, they need not offer anyone an apology for being black

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Rather be glad of it. Shout it. It is the purpose for which we are created

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This is the meaning of the gospel of reconciliation to black people Oh What perversion comes

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When you tie racism to scripture black theology and black power

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James H Combs is Hannity and Combs. He doesn't know anything more about theology than I know about brain surgery.

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So Let me finish no, here's my point to you You're not going to talk about Theology in context if you're not going to talk about liberation theology that came out of the 60s systematized black liberation theology they started with Jim Cone in 1968 reverend and the writings of Cone and the writings of Dwight Hopkins and the writings of womanist theologians and Asian theologians and Hispanic theologians reverend

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Then you then you can't talk about the black value I'm gonna tell you listen.

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I'm a you know liberation theology, sir. You know liberation. I actually studied. Oh, I studied theology I went to a seminar and I studied latin.

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I could go. Do you know black liberation? I'm very aware of what you're calling black liberation. Let me get my question.

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I don't know Do you know black the reverend? I'm gonna give you a chance to answer you.

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How many of those books have you reverend? How many of those books are reverend? Most viewers took one thing away from this interview

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Reverend Wright is rude But beyond his remarkable lack of etiquette Reverend was saying something that was easily overlooked

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Let's look again. No, I can go. Do you know black liberation? I'm very aware of what you're calling black liberation, but let me get my question.

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I don't know Do you know black the reverend? I'm gonna give you a chance to answer you.

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How many of those books have you reverend? How many of those books are reverend? There you go. How many of Cone's books have you read?

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Well If you've been listening this program today you have now read more of James Cone's books than the vast majority of people in the world have because you've

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Listened to me reading entire sections of it. Yes, sir. I'm feeling you've heard more than Sean Hannity's read.

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That's for sure Uh, well, yes, but remember Sean Hannity studied Latin you know, the thing is in all the different different groups that we have encountered in minister to take the gospel to The one thing that one thread that seems to be constant is how man -centered even in this

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Everything is we've got to look at God. We've got to call our Man -centered idealism

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Theology and it's pure anthropomorphism. It has nothing to do with theology.

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It all has to do with us Yeah, and you know as I was reading some of that I could not help but hear

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Direct echoes of things. I have heard Muslims saying about Islam what black theology does for blacks many

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Muslims try to do for Islam as not just a religion but as a culture and There were a lot of things

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I had to fight through at Fuller Theological Seminary when

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I did my first master's degree there in the 1980s and There was a lot of stuff there that you know was just way way way out there in you know

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But it was good for me I needed to you know, it was helping me to become a better apologist to have to interact with that stuff But there was one thing in one class that Stuck with me and was really really really really true

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And that is I don't remember the context. I remember the professor was I had some great professors My church history professor was really good

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My Romans professor was really good and and New Testament, but you know, I had some good professors

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They were almost always way off to the left of me, but that was a good thing I I learned in that process anyways, and at least back then you could you could disagree and as long as you did your work and You you were not penalized for that.

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Thankfully Be as it may The one thing that really struck with me

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It's it struck me and it stuck with me put them both together there Was the fact that there was a strong emphasis on the universality of Christianity That this is a message

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That dare not be identified with a particular culture there is a great danger and Western Christianity succumbed in many ways to that danger

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Gave into it capitulated to it the British tried to turn

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Many nations outside their borders into Brits So as to make them Christians, that's not a good thing to do doesn't work and When you start identifying the

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Christian faith of the particular culture There will have to be perversions introduced into the

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Christian faith and I remember reading an axe and seeing that part of the importance of the acts 15 council

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Was that it? Precluded the idea that there would always be a cultural connection to Christianity.

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That is it wasn't gonna be Jewish You didn't have to become a Jew to become a Christian That was part of what's important and what that means is this is a message that transcends geographical cultural linguistic and temporal bounds

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And that's one of the major differences between Christianity and Islam Remember by the way, by the way,

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Jeremiah, right will not condemn even an Islamic cult such as that of Farrakhan and That's an

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Islamic cult. You want racism? Oh my Wow the

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KKK has never thought of anything as Racist as Farrakhan never that they're just not even smart enough to figure that kind of thing out

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You want racism look at look at Louis Farrakhan Wow unbelievable anyway One of the great differences between Christianity and Islam Look at what

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Islam does the nation's where it becomes predominant Look at what happens to what are the great stresses and strains in Islamic countries today is

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The fact that Islam in essence tries to turn your culture into a 7th century Arabic culture in dress practice and mindset but this is the 21st century that creates about 14 centuries worth of strain and What is

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Osama bin Laden's whole argument even against? Saudi Arabia, which we would see as an

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Islamic country. It's not Islamic enough It's not fully 7th century. And so when

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Islamic apologists argue The Christianity see Jesus was only sent to the

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Jews. You need to understand that from the Muslim perspective Jesus's won't was only sent to the Jews It's Muhammad that was sent to the whole world.

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The reality is just the opposite I mean you really have to turn things on their head to turn

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Muhammad's message into a worldwide message It's Jesus's message. That's a worldwide message and when you become a

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Christian you become a Christian Turk or a

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Russian Christian or a Chinese Christian or a Ghana Christian or a

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Jamaican Christian or an American Christian You don't cease being those things

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Now that law of God brings certain things to bear in your life and if you live in the

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Netherlands where anything goes now where all morality has been thrown out the window as in many

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European states That law of God is going to make you a moral

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Swede or a moral Norwegian or a moral Dutch person and You're gonna stand out

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But you don't have to try to change the culture into a first century Jewish culture, that's the difference

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That's the difference and I saw a lot of parallels to what was being said by Cone to what

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I see in Islam very much so frightening stuff very very frightening stuff not in the sense of oh,

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I need to be scared of this, but this stuff needs to be discussed more fully and And unfortunately a lot of evangelicals who are much more concerned about prophecy conferences and conferences on how to do your finances and conferences on Whatever other fluff stuff there is out there

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And you know some conferences, okay They're fine if they were just balanced if we were really Looking at the whole

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Council of God and thinking about the whole Council of God and being willing to if we were willing to do Those things great fine wonderful, but the sad fact of the matter is

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That's the stuff that's out there, and that's the stuff that draws the people We need to be thinking about uncomfortable things things that might cause us to sit in our houses and turn off our stinking televisions and actually think about eternal values and How we're going to respond to what's going on our culture around us 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 not your standard dividing line today

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But I took that book down. I started reading. I started marking and I went oh my

47:11

My oh my oh my Let's talk with Marcus over in California hi

47:17

Marcus Hello, how are you doing? I'm trying to calm down after reading all that I know what you mean

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I Wanted to tell you that I I went to UC Berkeley And I had a chance to take lots of a couple of african -american studies courses at UC Berkeley Yeah, and you know what that's like You see berserkly yes,

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I I I can I can just imagine what that's like What I what I realized is when you look at I haven't read cone myself

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But when you look at stuff written by people like that Notice that it is fine racism.

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I think a little differently than the way you're defining it and They the way it's defined in different that Mindset is basically that you can only really be a racist if you have a power.

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Oh, yeah III am fully aware of that. I I do know that I I listened

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It was Michael Medved had a lady on and She was spouting this type of racist stuff.

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And when he called her on she said you don't understand I cannot be a racist. You have to have power to be a racist and Yeah, go ahead

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It's not really about color Basically people who are poor are basically all in the same boat

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Mm -hmm, you know with the gaps growing between rich and poor growing more and more in this country

48:54

There are more people in that boat well, you know, I I'm not a rich man, and I was raised in a family that was even

49:07

Less well -off than than I think I am. I don't really know. I'm not sure how to how to Measure such things but Well, yeah exactly and you know,

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I I've I've been doing some looking into my history I think once people get in their mid -40s they start thinking about their place in the timeline and they start thinking about their

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Their progenitors and their ancestors stuff and I've done some looking around and I come from poor stock

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But but my people my people Scottish people people who spoke with a very deep brogue

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Didn't use that as an excuse to Create a subculture where you demonize everybody else and that's wrong.

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You shouldn't be should no one should do that That's what's going on. But who's and you're right. You're right

49:54

That's exactly what's going on. But if you if you try to say that within the black community, you are immediately ostracized.

50:01

I Know what you mean? I mean the thing is like I I'm a part of a church of God in Christ domination.

50:09

Mm -hmm, and that is a largely African American denomination and Yeah, I I can see that.

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Yeah, that doesn't mean that we're not going to not say that you can't do that Yeah, but that's gonna put you into a into a really marginalized state and that's and that's a shame it shouldn't be that way, but my goodness,

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I Someone on the level of a cone, however, what I just read I Don't see where to start in Having the conversation there because he has in essence already

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Well, not as he made up his mind, but he's defined the categories in such a way that that from his perspective

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I don't exist You know, I agree. You're right and that I know that's not what

50:58

Jesus came for For us, I mean, that's just not it. No, it's amazing But the funny thing is it's interesting to me that your time today because I talked to my pastor yesterday he was saying that when we next time

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Bible study he wanted to Cover some like those kind of some topics like you were just saying they're not comfortable.

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Mm -hmm Well, this is especially within your context would be exceptionally not comfortable

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But I I just don't know how we can avoid talking about it because if if we don't talk about it, that's actually talking about it

51:35

Just just in a negative fashion. So I have a feeling that it partly comes from You know,

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I kind of look at it. It's sort of like the same thing as how some people teach that you can't have miracle

51:50

In church, you know like all the miracles like in the first century or God doesn't do that anymore

51:55

In other words the concept of cessationism Yeah, and I think it's sort of like goes along the same lines because I think when people come that way they got it

52:06

You know, if you don't if you don't see that God working that way in your life, you have to wonder why?

52:13

Well, I think I think there's a biblical discussion to be had in regards to the nature of the spiritual gifts and their role in the church

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But I don't think there's any question Whatsoever about Not well when you how does he do miracles, that's the question

52:35

People go Go the extreme thing. God doesn't do that anymore at all, right?

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I understand at some people go so far as to say that there are no spiritual gifts at all even such as discernment

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Leadership anything like that, which I didn't even know people. I didn't even know people went that far until a few years ago but I don't

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I'm not sure I see the connection here because quite honestly the the issue is I see it and and and I I could make a strong biblical argument at this point.

53:05

The issue is I see it is what is the nature of the Christian Church and What is the unity that we have in Christ?

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And is there such a thing as whiteness or blackness or brownness or? whateverness

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That that somehow can become the very defining factor in one's theology and Christian experience and that Frightens me that there are people who truly do believe and and you know,

53:33

I I I've only heard this on television, but now I could see why it would be

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There's a lot of people who've just sort of sat back and said, you know when I see all the clips of Jeremiah Wright's Church I don't see any white people there and I if I was a white person listening this kind of preaching all the time.

53:54

I don't know how I could be there either That really concerns me in a in a big fashion, but anyway, hey

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Marcus, thanks for surviving berserk Lee and Thanks. Thanks for being out there listening

54:09

Yeah, I Do agree with why it bothers you it bothers me.

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It should bother anybody. It certainly should. Thanks, sir We'll see it. God bless. Bye. Bye Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one thought we had a phone call there but ended up not having a phone call there was gonna try to sneak him in right at the end, but I Really I didn't know how long that was gonna take and I had other stuff as well but once you get going reading that stuff, it is just It's like getting hit in the gut

54:44

It really is you you you read that and you go, okay Jeremiah Wright says that is what you need to read to understand where he's coming from Okay, I think that only made things a whole lot worse

55:02

You know, I honestly

55:08

Look at that and and just go Hmm how do you respond to that and and in reality in our society?

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Are you even allowed to respond to that? I Mean, I bet you dollars doughnuts we get negative emails just simply from the fact that I read it

55:27

On one side, there's gonna be people say well, you're just stirring up trouble You shouldn't read that stuff even though he's going on television.

55:33

They need to read these books Yeah, read them, but skip to yourself. No, what do you mean? But then there's there's gonna be others, you know

55:42

In essence have bought into the Western mindset that if you're in a minority group now

55:48

Everybody if you wanted to could find a way of putting yourself in a minority group. I mean, you know we all have something that we could claim and hold on to to make us somehow in a minority group and so we can feel

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Like we're marginalized or we're victimized or blah blah blah blah blah blah blah And I just don't see anything

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Christianity that encourages you to be that way I just don't see it. But in our society as long as you're in a minority group you get to say anything you want to say and The radical

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Muslims in the United States have learned this I will never forget I wish I had had I just got a new program that grabs any kind of video stream that's showing on my screen and saves it for me and I wish

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I'd had this before but I will never forget a Video about a year and a half ago two years ago of some

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Muslims in the United States burning an American flag and the the microphone picked up the

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Muslim preaching And what he said basically what he was saying was We get to do this because their system grants us the rights to do this

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This is a loophole in their system and we need to take advantage of this

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So that we can make our protests now everybody knows that once if they ever accomplished their goal of establishing

57:13

Sharia That of course Sharia would not allow the reverse but we need to take advantage of this while we can and I wish

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I I wish I've still had that video knowing knowing having us at it. Someone will send me a link

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Let's hope so. That'd be nice But that's that's what's going on out there. So While we still have the freedom

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To talk about these things and to read these things read entire sections of these books

57:42

We'll do so but the sad fact the matter is there's a lot of folks who would like to see even that freedom taken away

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From us. So pray that while we have it we use the freedoms God gives to us to his honor and to his

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Glory, and we need to think about these things even when they are in fact Uncomfortable to think about so we will be back

58:04

Lord willing on this Thursday afternoon I am at the fire conference all next week. And so There will not be any dividing lines next week

58:13

Unless for some reason I were to call in from California, but I don't know we'll think about it.

58:19

We'll see what happens I mean, hey, we should set up Skype. I Had almost sound like I was here, you know as long as I had a good connection

58:27

Maybe we can test it. Anyways, we'll be back on Thursday. See you then The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries

59:33

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59:46

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