Debate Report, Jennifer Knapp, Liberty's Inquiry

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

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Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed

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Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with dr.

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White call now It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll -free across the

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United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five Three three three four one and now with today's topic.

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Here is James White And good morning. Welcome to the dividing line Tuesday morning the 11th of May my goodness

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Where has this year gone? I can guarantee you About the last eight or nine days have gone by very quickly for yours truly back here in Beautiful sunny dry

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Phoenix, Arizona. Oh My goodness, I don't know how anyone lives in Florida I really really don't you have no mountains and you can cut the atmosphere with a knife

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Wow We had a great time there as long as we were inside an air -conditioned structure but even as we arrived on Friday morning at the location at the

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Innisbrook Resort where we are gonna be having that day's Well the debate that evening in the conference sessions and stuff like that as I walked to the building the big glass

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Windows were completely fogged up. You could not see in or out of them because there was so much humidity and I feel so For those of you who live in that because it

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Stinks but anyway, we had a wonderful time there start off with a report on the debate in the conference

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And then of course move on to current events and there's a lot of current events in one particular area these days

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Those of you who aren't excited about that, you can find something else to do once we get to that subject but first foremost headed out on late

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Saturday evening and Went up to Denver, Colorado is at Northern Ridge Baptist Church up there and had a wonderful time with the folks

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I was speaking on the doctrines of grace It was interesting to be speaking on a completely different subject than I was gonna be debating on Sort of gave me a little bit of a break there.

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I think was good. I Did have a wonderful time up there. I want to thank the folks there pastor pastor

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Mike, especially For taking the time to fulfill my request. I had never requested this before But I made a request that the church rent a road bike for me

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While I was up there because I wanted to get some training in at altitude Denver, of course the mile -high city 5 ,280 feet and I had the opportunity that the

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Really? I will never forget the opportunity to do the morgul Bismarck run twice with Eric and Eric Eric W and Eric II Who live up there in Colorado They were kind enough to ride with me and I did the morgul

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Bismarck run Which if you've seen of the film American Flyers, it was featured in that it was about a 28 mile loop and Getting a

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First day was 1 ,800 feet of climbing and then we did a little extra the next time so we got over 2 ,000 feet when we did

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It on Wednesday We didn't get to ride on Tuesday because they had 70 mile -an -hour winds and when you're on a road bike, that's dangerous

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Anyways, it was gorgeous in the foothills called the Flatirons out there right right at the front range of the

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Rockies and oh My goodness, what a what a wonderful time. That was that was a treasure that I I'll never forget.

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So I really really appreciated that and I got 75 miles and 4 ,500 feet of climbing in over the three days

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So that was that was exciting. Then we left the dry cool climb I mean I was

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I was on one descent on the morgul Bismarck with about a 30 mile an hour headwind Going about 30 miles an hour.

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So that's giving me about a 60 mile an hour breeze going past me it's guess that's not a breeze is it and I looked down at the thermometer on my

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GPS and It read 46 .7 degrees get on the plane

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Same flight that least rubble took and get off the plane in Tampa, Florida and You you can cut the air with a knife it was a major major major change so we flew out on on Thursday afternoon and there was a

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National Day of Prayer event that evening and then I spoke Friday morning on the subject of the reliability of the

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New Testament and I was sort of wondering I had met Robert Price the first time on Thursday evening and I was sort of wondering we had

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You know, we'd had a nice chat He's a rather jovial fellow I Think Barry was saying something about I was debating

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Chris Kringle Something like that. He does look a little bit like Santa Claus and he joke. He laughed about that. He said yeah yeah, they talked about how he liked to talk to kids who thought he was

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Santa Claus and So I sort of wondered because he attended the national prayer thing if he would attend my presentation in the morning, but he did not and At least that's my knowledge anyways,

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I mean it's very large room, but I didn't see him and So Friday evening we all gathered together we had a good group there 850 to a thousand people

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I would say attended the debate and The Florida atheists showed up atheists seemed to feel like they need to advertise their presence by wearing shirts that advertise that they're atheists and They did that when

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I was in Australia and they did that in in Florida as well now earlier in the day

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After Lee Strobel had spoken. I wasn't there at that time. I I sort of have a standing rule

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I will speak in the morning if I absolutely have to Of a debate, but then

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I I need to be able to get focused for the debate I don't do things in the afternoon prior to a debate

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I need to be focused on that needs to be remember my mind is I wasn't there but Lee Strobel spoke and a group of atheists sort of Ambushed him after the after the talk with a video camera

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They wanted to I don't know do some movie thing or something like that And I guess it got fairly warm with some of the atheists there

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Yeah, I mean, you know all the all 451 videos on my youtube site have no comments because atheists can't control their tongues and or their fingers as far as expression goes and so That that was that was interesting and that was helpful in convincing the powers that be that we needed to Have only written questions putting a live microphone in front of a large number of atheists is just simply foolish because they are not

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Going to control themselves. They just don't have that level vast majority of them. Do not have that level of Of self -control to actually just ask questions.

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They want to engage in a second debate where they are the debater so as most of you know,

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I didn't in years past prior to debates with Bart Ehrman prior to debates with John Dominic Cross and I Had I had played major portions of my opponents presentations on the program

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I had talked about it Interacted with stuff when I debated John Shelby spunk. I didn't do as much of that this time partly because Robert Price's presentation is is very idiosyncratic.

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It's it's only his position. I didn't do it Not because I was not

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Studying and preparing I was from even though I didn't have as much time as I have in previous debates

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I didn't it wasn't scheduled as far as far out Sometimes I have an entire year like knowing

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I was going to be debating Bart Ehrman But I was Preparing and and preparing very thoroughly.

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I Digitized his books put him on my on my iPad iPad.

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I don't have an iPad on my iPod and it very similar I Listened to everything

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I'd find online and I want to thank all of you who would send in links that I had not found

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I listened to the better of his debates numerous times People sent me links to stuff that they had done

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There's a lot of folks I wish to thank for the fact that I was well prepared for for Robert Price and Robert Price was the first person to tell you that One of the things that came out of the debate was he more than one said

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I'm Humbled and honored that you spent so much time Studying my position and that had an impact on the debate.

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It really really did He could tell very early on given the citations that I use and the approach they made that this was not going to be what he is used to what he's used to is the argument from authority and There were many people

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Who want me to use the argument from authority, what is that? Well the majority of scholars say that's the argument from authority and So you what you do is you create a very minimalized

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Christian position and you've heard this over and over again This is standard evidentialism today you create a minimalized

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Christian position where there's a core of historical fact about the resurrection and Then you once you've minimized the target he has to shoot at Then you start with the well, you know

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Dr. Gary Habermas has studied all of everything everyone has said about the resurrection and a certain percentage agree with these particular facts and and you hear that over and Over and over and over and over again from a wide variety of people

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Now Robert Price has simply gotten tired of debating that He responds by saying

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I don't care what the majority of scholars say You've got to deal with my arguments. You've got to deal with what it is that I'm actually saying and You're not dealing with what

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I'm actually saying and so you can go online and you can listen to all sorts of debates that The doctor price is done

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With people and it always keeps coming back the same thing. Well, you don't agree the majority scholars I know I don't agree with the majority of scholars.

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Would you deal with my actual argument, please? and So I made it. Hi if I'm gonna be consistent,

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I had to make the determination quite some time ago that I was going to Be consistent in my responses to Robert Price, which means a

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I need to be presuppositional but That doesn't mean we weren't debating the existence of God and there are presupposition lists out there and I'm hearing more and more from these folks

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That they don't believe that I mean I had one guy that wrote to me a couple weeks ago

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Just just laughing at the ermine debate because in essence from his perspective All I should have done was would have been using the transcendental argument to demonstrate the existence of God at the

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Bart Ehrman You shouldn't debate textual critical issues. You shouldn't debate historically shouldn't discuss any of those things

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Just do tag just do the transcendental argument. This was God nothing else evidently seems to be what where they're coming from and In other words,

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I would have to be dishonest because we invited dr Ehrman to debate a certain particular topic now, he changed the topic in the last month, but we divided debated him on a particular topic and the same thing with with Robert Price and So I needed to demonstrate that his historical methodology

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Is not only inconsistent with our experience. It is a truncated view of reality because it's a naturalistic perspective

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He relies completely upon the principle of analogy We have to root our knowledge of history and in an analogous understanding of what goes on our own day

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If in our own day, we pretty much embrace a naturalistic perspective then we cannot say anything about a any text of the ancient world that speaks of anything in regards to the supernatural and On that basis then well, it just looks like all this stuff is myth and blah blah blah now again

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Dr. Price has one presentation for atheists another for Christians and even in being in a

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Christian context I found his presentation to be the most passive presentation as far as his opening of anything.

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I've ever heard him done do I'm sorry I really had to bring out the

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Radical nature of his skepticism in my own opening statement, which is pretty challenging. You only get 20 minutes folks

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I would challenge anybody to put together 20 minutes and and not only bring out what your opponent has not brought out but Attempt to make a meaningful presentation in the midst of all that.

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It's it's a challenge one that I really enjoyed undertaking and so he read his opening statement and I Recognized as I walked in there

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That the vast majority of folks in the audience that evening and In the future listening to this will not know enough about Robert Price's background

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To Really appreciate Why it was

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I had to approach things the way that I did so I had a choice to make either I debate for the moment and for An audience that isn't really aware of what the backgrounds are or I debate for the future and I debate for those who know

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Robert Price's arguments and they know his his perspective and Will recognize that I am actually responding to his particular positions.

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And so I Addressed the presuppositional nature of his methodology and I did so by going point by point through his most radical criticism demonstrating where his methodology breaks down because of its presuppositional nature and Once we got into you know what after we had our opening statements and he got up to do his rebuttal he only did

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He only did 12 minutes out of 15 that was available for his rebuttal Now I have my rebuttal notes.

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I have my little Idea pad with me. I've discovered I can type a lot faster.

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I can write so The easiest thing is to have this little thing and type it out and I have up on my on my second

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Actually my third screen here some of the things that he had said and I went backwards because the last one of the very last things he said in his rebuttal and This is where I went all here we go

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There may have been a standardization of text as an early Islam in regards to the

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New Testament Now this is where he was responding to what I said about first Corinthians chapter 15

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I put up some graphics about the transmission of the text and stuff and when he said there may have been in essence and Uthman Well, that's where I went

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Immediately in my rebuttal period and that's when the debate really started because and And he never attempted to recover on that point and didn't even try to go there

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Because he started talking about Hadith. He started time. I was like that and it was like just wandered into my spot here fellow we need to discuss this and so I went after that very strongly and I also went after not a number of other things.

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For example, I've heard Dr. Price many times go after a fundamental

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Elements of the historical examination to test them. That is look Jesus was Jewish and He needs to be interpreted in a

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Jewish context well People will say that and he'll go come back say well, wait a minute.

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I mean we've found synagogues where you've got Dionysus and you've got these pagan gods and they're in drinking contests and and all the rest of stuff and You know, most people just go.

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Oh So there the Jews were really Hellenized So so they would have been looking for they would have had a problem with a dying rising

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God theme or motif for hero man or blah blah blah and most people who follow the standardized, you know stuff

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Don't know how to respond to that but the reality is the synagogue he's talking about is long after the time of Jesus as long after 8070 and There was a massive change in The culture in that area after 8070 which you could can imagine

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I'm it'd be like, you know What if the Chinese army completely wiped out all of Washington DC?

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Don't you think the general culture in the surrounding area? Would be fundamentally altered for quite some time after that well, of course well, the

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Romans had flattened Jerusalem and that resulted in a major change in the

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You know the culture in that area and yes, there's there's an increase in Hellenization In after that time period but that doesn't say anything about the time period in the

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New Testament Even though and dr. Price's theory the New Testament is so late that it could So, you know,

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I challenge these things and had taken the time to dig into those issues and to get that kind of information and And I thank all of you who for example through the ministry resource list

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Made that kind of information available to me I would find stuff and I'd put in the list and many of you have been very helpful in in that way and So I thank you for that.

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So Once we got into cross -examination we discovered pretty quickly dr.

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Price went first and We discovered pretty quickly that He hasn't done a lot of cross -examination before and I don't think this was purposeful on his part.

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There's some people I debate It's very very purposeful on their part when they don't really ask questions. Remember remember

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You know Mr. Staples in Fullerton in 2000, okay

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Four questions over 12 minutes was all he managed to get in and all the rest It was just personal statements and all the rest that thing that that's

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I don't think dr Price was trying to violate the rules at all I just don't think for some reason the cross -examination had been much of a part of his experience of debate up to this point, which is amazing given how many debates he's done and So I had to try to Because see when he's asking me

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I'm but that's supposed to be a period of time where I get the majority of the commentary Because he's only asking a question then

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I'm responding now. I try to be brief you try to be succinct, but this is a Period where I sort of have the advantage as far as you know, if he's doing his questions

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Well, then I'm on the defensive, but I still have more time to explain myself but he's making all sort of all sorts of comments and so it becomes more of a just a discussion back and forth and I I rolled with it, you know, it's a little bit of a disadvantage, but I rolled with it.

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That's alright it was interesting and that the audience really liked it and then my Turn came for my next 15 minutes.

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And of course, I had all of my questions already written out Based upon the study

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I've been doing for months and months of his materials. I had him on my Kindle I don't know if I miss I was speaking for my my

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Kindle during this this debate for my opening statements and my questions and my closing and stuff like that and So During that period of time, you know,

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I was pressing him and many many times he had to just basically say well, we just don't know and So then

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I'd bring up places where he has claimed to know and to know with certainty That the Christian position could not be the right one.

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It can't be right and So there was a really strong contrast. And so he started saying well look, you know this is all just speculation on my part and When we would ask a strong question like, you know, but what if this

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I don't know how many times he said it I'm hope no one's overly Offended by this, but he kept saying the same thing.

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You're here if you listen to the basis. Well, that's the case We're all screwed. I Just kept me kept in fact one point

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Hank Hanegraaff who was moderating debate said that's one of your favorite terms, isn't it? So but he was admitting

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I Mean I was accomplishing exactly what I wanted to accomplish at that point in demonstrating

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Part of my thesis and that is that this type of radical skepticism destroys all historical knowledge but then that also means he can't be making any meaningful statement about the thesis is the

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Bible true because He really doesn't have any grounds for doing so Then something odd happened he

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He you know gave up on his Next cross X.

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So he did 15 minutes I did 15 minutes then then Hank went to him and he's like I I really don't have any questions to ask now

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That was a disadvantage for me because again, that's where I'm Getting more of the time but What are you supposed to say?

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You know and so Hank went back to me. I did another 15 minutes where I asked questions So at least

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I was directing things, but all I could do is ask questions. I couldn't respond to a whole lot of stuff And I I noticed that one of the reviews of the debate by Matthew Bellisario Who was in the audience he didn't seem to follow any of that And I have certainly have no reason to believe that Matthew knows much about Robert Price's positions

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So a lot of his comments where I have found somewhat humorous, but I will mention in passing. Mr Bellisario did attend the debate and after the debate was over We went to the book room and we're signing books and I was sitting next

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Robert Price and When I looked over at the line, and I I saw the name tag.

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It said Matthew Bellisario I I know he's he's gonna be crushed by this But I knew that he had said he was coming because we discussed on the dividing line at one point

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To be honest with you as the last time I even thought about it. I had not thought about him Since that dividing line

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And even when I looked over and saw his name I didn't make the connection Until he walked up and then

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I realized who it was. He's Roman Catholic and I I didn't really appreciate his comments about double standards and all the silliness like that.

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It was it was anyway But his comments of the debate I found somewhat humorous, but not overly surprising given

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The Roman Catholic context. I just just the thought crossed my mind though whenever I saw what he had to say

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Can you imagine any of? The Roman Catholic apologists being involved in that debate

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Could you imagine Tim Staples or Jimmy Akin or Patrick Madrid? Engaging Robert Price on that subject.

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I don't think Matthew Bellisario could I Think he I think he knows in his heart of hearts exactly what would happen if that if that took place

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He even made the comment in his you see that's what happens when you believe in solo scriptura blah blah blah

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You really really think that someone's gonna score points in a debate with Robert Price by sitting there saying well

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You know, dr. Price if you had the Pope then you'd have historical certainty And he's gonna be gone really which one and I mean you just start down the road and the papal schisms and all the rest

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That stuff and you just have a grand old time That did sort of make me chuckle just a little bit. So anyhow,

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I Realize again that that people who do not know what

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Price's position is Might not understand why asked many of the questions that I did but those who do

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Know what happened on Friday night, and they know exactly why I persecuted

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Prosecuted as propertors are not persecuted prosecute the debate the way that I did. Dr.

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Price appreciated it When I did my closing statement I had designed a tie

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Specifically for this debate it designed it about a month and a half ago or so It has first Corinthians 15 3 through 11, which he believes is a later interpolation in a very nice blue and white

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Type of color scheme from Codex Sinaiticus on it and I gave one to him and I gave one to Hank Hanegraaff Both of them immediately during my closing statement

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It was a little bit distracting distracting But during my closing statement both of them were taking off the ties they were wearing and putting on the new ties

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I had just given to them and I wish we had gotten a picture of the three of us wearing those those ties but You can see dr.

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Price wearing it in the picture. I put on my blog. That's was provided to me. So We had a we had a great great time there and that like I said, we went in and and He signed a number of his books and we gave him a copy of the

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Forgotten Trinity that I signed for him And and we had some very nice discussions with folks. There were some the the atheists didn't enjoy themselves

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Some stuck around there is one who talked to me afterwards that you know, I'm an atheist agnostic

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But I really appreciate how you did the debate Some did but the ones that were looking for a bloodbath the ones that were looking for a mockery of someone

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The ones that have been there earlier in the day. They were not happy many of them left the ones that stuck around were obviously that wasn't what they were hoping for and So that's that's very very good.

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Now. Everyone's asking when will this be available? Well, there's there's work to be done on it

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You will see it made available at the same time by both ourselves and CRI, that's all

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I can tell you I don't know exactly when that's going to be But we will make it all available at at the same time.

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So, you know was Their conference and my debate so we're working together to get that that out to you.

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We obviously want to have people Watching that especially those who've been influenced look Bob Price is in the gut and the film the

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God who wasn't there That's all over the internet. That's really popular in university campuses I think this is gonna be something that you're gonna find to be extremely useful along those lines.

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And so once again, very thankful to everyone who provided The resources and things like that to make this possible

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Don't really have time to slow down I just loaded on my iPod a debate with one of my opponents in Dearborn Coming up in June and Gotta move on and So I've got that in June preach most of July at church

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Beginning of August. I'm in New York at the beginning of the month and then come back and at the end of month

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August 30th Christopher Hitchens in on Long Island and September two debates with Roberts and Janice in Santa Fe in October another debate with Roberts and Janice in Newburgh, Oregon and beginning of November with heart cry ministries down in Peru training pastors

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That's why everyone's while I put on the blog that little link to the travel stuff because I I just live in airports and sealed pressurized tubes called aircraft

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I've I've already flown farther this year than I did in all of last year

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I already have more miles than I did all of last year I just passed I think a hundred thousand miles in my account and and I've already qualified for my frequent flyer stuff and and I Still got over half a year to go.

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So yeah, we've been we've been doing a lot of that so thank you very much for everyone who prayed especially

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I was I Considered this to be one of the most challenging debates that I had because he his positions unusual and there's so much stuff he can throw out and so I was very very thankful.

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I don't think it could have gotten any better And so I hope you're looking forward to seeing it as well 877 -753 -3341 we're gonna take our break and when we come back

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Current events happening out in the world. We'll be right back right after this In a day and age where the gospel is being twisted into a man -centered self -help program

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The need for a no -nonsense presentation of the gospel has never been greater I am convinced that a great many go to church every

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Sunday yet. They have never been confronted with their sin Alpha Omega Ministries is dedicated to presenting the gospel in a clear and concise manner making no excuses

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Man is sinful and God is holy That sinful man is in need of a perfect Savior and Jesus Christ is that perfect Savior?

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We are to come before the Holy God with an empty hand of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ Alpha and Omega takes that message to every group that we deal with while equipping the body of Christ as well

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Support Alpha Omega Ministries and help us to reach even more with the pure message of God's glorious grace

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Thank you The history of the Christian Church pivots on the doctrine of justification by faith Once the core of the

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Reformation the church today often ignores or misunderstands this foundational doctrine in his book the

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God who justifies theologian James White calls believers to a fresh appreciation of Understanding of and dedication to the great doctrine of justification and then provides an exegesis of the key scripture texts on this theme

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Justification is the heart of the gospel in today's culture where tolerance is the new absolute

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James White proclaims with passion the truth and centrality of the doctrine of justification by faith

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Dr. J. Adams says I lost sleep over this book. I simply couldn't put it down James White writes the way an exegetically and theologically oriented pastor appreciates.

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This is no book for casual reading There is solid meat throughout an outstanding contribution in every sense of the words

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The God who justifies by dr. James White get your copy today at a omen

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Or this portion of the dividing line has been made possible by the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church The Apostle Paul spoke of the importance of solemnly testifying of the gospel of the grace of God The proclamation of God's truth is the most important element of his worship in his church

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The elders and people of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church invite you to worship with them this coming

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Lord's Day The morning Bible study begins at 9 30 a .m. And the worship service is at 10 45

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Evening services are at 6 30 p .m. On Sunday and the Wednesday night prayer meeting is at 7

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The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805 North 12th Street in Phoenix You can call for further information at 602 to 6 grace

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If you're unable to attend you can still participate with your computer and real audio at PR BC org where the ministry extends around the world through the archives of sermons and Bible study lessons available 24 hours a day and Welcome back to the dividing line now without any rejoinder music

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Let's just say that some people out in the control room are playing around a little bit and so, you know

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That's what happens You know, I just you know, I'm just in here all I can do, you know

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Just doing what I can do a trainee. Yeah a trainee. There you go The rookies up to bat, okay.

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All right fine He's gonna hit you in a second he's gonna hey, I'm just telling you what you told me to do, but Anyway in the news right now.

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Yes, you all think I'm gonna be talking about that and I will be in a moment But first and foremost,

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I haven't had a chance to do the videos. I want to do in this yet I'm not in any rush simply because I don't

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This is a long -term issue But I am saddened by the anemic response of many responsive ignorance really of many in evangelicalism to the

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Situation we got regarding Jennifer Knapp. Now. I had never even heard of Jennifer Knapp. I will admit

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I Am not really up on the current CCM scene

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But most of you are aware that just a matter of weeks ago Jennifer Knapp came out as a lesbian and today is the release of Her CD called letting go and she most definitely has been letting go of Christianity and Orthodoxy in the process but she was on Larry King show recently and once again

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Nothing new in the sense of the argumentation things that we have dealt with over and over and over again

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Misrepresentations of arson a coy taste just just ignorance But there are so many people within evangelicalism whose opposition homosexuality remains an opposition of mere tradition and not knowledge

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Yes, the the Bible most definitely condemns this but why not only do you need to know what the texts are and I think the vast majority of Christians couldn't give you almost any text outside of Romans 1

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But you need to know the alternative interpretations and why they are completely bogus

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Just as much as you need to know what the Jehovah's Witnesses are gonna say or the Mormons are gonna say anybody else there is a Methodology that they are utilizing and they use the same arguments and once you understand them once you know where they're coming from you can respond to them very very well and Unfortunately, that's not what's been going on the same -sex controversy the book that Jeff Neal and I wrote number of years ago would have been very helpful in those situations, but Hopefully some people are picking that up and looking at that again as well as the debates with both

35:56

Barry Lynn And John Shelby Spong, I don't think that there's anyone I've never heard anyone

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Honestly, I've never heard anyone say that either Barry Lynn or John Shelby Spong won those debates

36:07

I mean even the people the people even the people even the papal people even the papal people.

36:13

They hate my guts Yes, we'll call them papal people now even the papal people will admit that those debates were not even close and they weren't and So It's not a difficult subject to debate from a biblical perspective, but it's something and it's not taste.

36:33

It's not enjoyable It was distasteful. They have to do the study that I did for those debates But again, we've now provided that kind of resource that hopefully will be useful to you

36:42

And here's a situation where quote -unquote within evangelicalism, obviously, I would say no not within evangelicalism at all but here's an opportunity to be able to address a subject like that and we need to be able to do so in such a way that we

36:56

Really do give an answer of the hope that's within us it's it's really really necessary and it's it's sad to see how many people because this woman has a

37:07

Music ministry haven't willing to go. Well, you know You know

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Homosexuality destroys life It destroys life It is not a life -giving behavior.

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It is a life -taking behavior There is a reason for God's law now, it would be wrong simply because God's law says it

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But here we even know much of the reason why and yet people are willing to go

37:38

Well, you know, but but I like her music Well, are you gonna invite

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Various and sundry other people who you know of to perform in your church, you know, I mean there's some very talented homosexuals

37:54

You know, but the facts the facts and It's it's sad to see so many homosexuals

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So Easily presenting themselves as Christians and and so few

38:10

Christians that have a meaningful response To that the resources are there. We just we just need to Make a sales, you know avail ourselves of them.

38:21

Okay I was looking at Most of you are aware of the fact that yesterday

38:28

I posted on my blog the original statement from Liberty University About a committee formed to investigate

38:36

Cantor statements from May 10th, they then reposted it and edited it and They added a little shot at us.

38:44

It is very clear that the leadership is not happy with yours truly with squirrel good old gene

38:52

Jason Jason Smathers And others all of whom I know

38:58

Well, I don't know all of them. I don't know Some of the people in the Southern Baptist circles specifically

39:05

But they added the little shot at the end Liberty does not initiate personnel evaluations based upon accusations from internet blogs

39:14

Chancellor Jerry Falwell jr. Said even when those internet blogs provide legal documentation and Use audio and video

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I It's easy to understand it seems to me that I Can understand why

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Elmer Towns who is a very elderly man? Would be disconnected from the alternative media and not understand

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What blogs are about and how they function and things in the modern world? I can understand that but Falwell jr.

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Is young enough to be fully well aware of the fact that the criticisms that have been offered of Ergon Cantor are thoroughly documented

40:08

And That therefore This idea that well, you know, we're not gonna do anything in Evidently way of saying is we're gonna do anything until the mainstream secular media comes along Once the mainstream secular we're not gonna worry about those

40:23

Christians out there But if the mainstream secular media comes along, well, we'll look into it now

40:28

Wow. What what a what a statement It's sad But I didn't really bring that up in the open letter that I posted last evening on the blog

40:40

Where I gave some of the background and then I listed 22 questions That must be answered 22 questions and this morning

40:50

I linked to jeans chronology of The Cantor saga very very good.

40:58

Lots of links in it the best one out there right now and I linked to that as well if the

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Liberty University inquiry is going to have any Credibility whatsoever and not simply be seen as a cover -up if it's not gonna be seen as a political joke

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Then those 22 questions must be addressed directly

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Openly and fully if they are not Then this inquiry will have no credibility whatsoever full and direct answers from Ergon Cantor must be given to these questions and if the answer is

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I lied About it then make that the answer if the answer to why he twice

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Claimed to debate Shabir Ali is I lied Fine that's what we need to hear

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But we cannot put up with well, you know, I misspoke that's why I provided. Okay, you misspoke

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Then who did you debate in Nebraska who said the things that you attributed to Shabir Ali Who was it?

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Give me a name. Give me a date Now somebody said well,

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I can't remember everything I did. Well, that's true But you know what?

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You've got records You've got you've got emails if my last resort

42:41

When I'm trying to remember when I did something is well, it could be algo Algo would be it would be a good last

42:47

Algo is a better last resort than most things and it is frightening at times when I say hey When did it abate so -and -so

42:53

November 12th that 754 p .m. And you were wearing a yellow tie, you know, that's that's frightening.

42:59

Okay, it's just wrong but my last resort to my emails I keep all my emails and any meaningful email program today can search for anything and So that's how

43:12

I track stuff down. That's how I find things. And so don't tell me that you could debate a

43:21

Muslim and you remember where it was. It was in Nebraska. I've debated in Nebraska. I Debated Jerry Maddox twice in Nebraska in Omaha in 1992

43:35

November as I recall, okay. Now if I can remember that from 1992 Eric and Cantor is younger than I am

43:43

So he can remember when he debated someone who sounded like or talked like Shabir Ali So the fact the matter is

43:53

Simply saying well, I misspoke is not gonna do it because it also has to explain Did you also misspeak when you claim to debate

44:01

Abdul Salim who is a Christian who you know? He knows what Abdul Salim means.

44:06

He knows Abdul Salim means servant of the cross. He knows that he said it another context and yet In front of that audience.

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He used it as a Muslim name of someone he debated who denied the crucifixion of Jesus and I say

44:22

He was just simply stringing together Arabic sounding names to impress an audience thinking that they were too ignorant to know the difference and so answers must be given and It can't just be well, you know, sometimes the clutch between my brain and my mouth doesn't work too well that's not gonna that's like I'm sorry, it's not enough and one of the reasons to be found for that is found in that picture

44:50

Which again I was I was looking at it's it's on the Marines website and I'm looking at it right now and it is from January 15th 2005 and Their Ergon Kanner is standing up on a stage in front of an entire room of uniformed soldiers caption

45:16

Dr. Ergon M. Kanner addresses the War Eagles during a period of military instruction at the

45:22

MCAS New River Theater on April 15th Was that says April 15th date photo taken says

45:28

January 15th. That's weird Kanner conducted two periods of instruction regarding misconceptions and strategic protocols of a jihad

45:40

And it gives who the photo was by why has

45:46

Ergon Kanner been given the platform He's been given to address Islam. Is it because of his doctoral studies?

45:52

No, it is not His doctoral studies are not in Islam. They're on the Crusades now, that would be somewhat relevant

45:59

Sorta it was almost a Christian jihad, but he's been given the position.

46:07

He's been given Because of his claim to have been a devout Sunni Muslim who was trained in jihad in Turkey In the madrasa on the border with Iraq That's why he's been given the position.

46:22

He's been given But all the evidence we have right now suggests that never happened There are not many jihad training madrasas in the early 1970s in Ohio As far as we can tell that's where Ergon Kanner was and so there are 22 questions

46:45

That he needs to answer And it cannot just be well, he's answered them to our satisfaction because now we have the contradiction first Elmer Towns tells us last week

46:57

That we've held an inquiry and we've not found anything worthy of any type of censure, etc, etc

47:03

Now we're being told the opposite. Well, really we didn't really have an inquiry now We're gonna do one and we'll have our results by the end of June Which one is it?

47:17

Now it is getting all over the place. I mean The mainstream media is there

47:23

Here is Liberty student news independent news of Liberty University May 11th.

47:30

I think that's yes today And Here is

47:37

An entire article that has links Links to my website.

47:43

It includes a post from YouTube of Well, you got my got the computer up here

47:51

I'm gonna I want to I want to play this if it queues up fast enough. Does this sound familiar?

47:56

This is from YouTube Every debate

48:05

Abu Saliba Nadia Ahmed Shabir Ali every debate I've had with these men.

48:11

They always end at the same point So what if Jesus did die because the Quran teaches somebody died? So what if Jesus did die

48:19

What's that matter to me Radically redefined grace with Allah simply means he does not kill you.

48:25

Mm -hmm. He allows you life and that's grace There is no such thing as grace being unmerited favor given to one who could not do for himself

48:31

You can do for yourself in Islam One of the number one lines that should be early the Muslim apologist gave gave me at a debate

48:39

Which took place in Nebraska was why does one man have to die for me? What does one man's death have to do with my life?

48:46

And this is now that's posted the whole video is posted on This Liberty Student News website

48:57

It's getting out there. There is no way to keep a lid on this any longer It's there people need to understand it and deal with it

49:07

One of the reasons that this is concerned me from the beginning I have said look when you've got someone running around pretending to be you

49:14

You need to deal with that and that's what Ernie Cantor has been doing He has been pretending to do what

49:19

I do I do the work and actually do it and we can document that over and over again.

49:25

He doesn't and Pretends to do it and that's why listening to that that Trinitarian faceplant that he did against the one that's

49:33

Pentecostal pastors just so maddening to me if you just read my book on the subject you could have done better than that and so One of the things that's bothered me all along is that the the potential for damage

49:47

To the very kind of ministry that we want to be doing in Dearborn, Michigan next month when

49:54

I'm debating two different Shiites on Important issues reliability New Testament the deity of Christ again.

50:00

I'm on the defensive. I'm willing to do that I'm willing to take that role and have been doing it for years.

50:10

I was listening to emir Cantor Ergen's brother and I Was taken aback by some of the things that I heard in a sermon that he delivered

50:23

Now it's been very interesting emir seems significantly more Restrained in many ways than Ergen Cantor He we've learned all sorts things.

50:36

He admits my mother tongue Swedish More more their grandmother always spoke

50:42

Swedish But he still addresses Islam because he is the co -author of these books and It's his books that have things like hadith 957 in it, which is a meaningless citation

50:56

Hadith 947 means nothing. That's like saying Bible 316 Could you find any reference in the

51:03

Bible if I said Bible 316? No Hadith 957 is supposed to be

51:09

Sahih al -Bukhari 957 Turjan fan has a very interesting blog article on that today

51:17

By the way, he took the time to look through all the references in unveiling Islam and found numerous inconsistencies in the citations

51:24

It looks like it's the work of multiple people, which of course it was I mean, it's got at least two authors, but it looks like the work of multiple people no editing to standardize the citations and some odd Statements that almost sound like there's real confusion as to what

51:39

Sahih al -Bukhari is in comparison to Sahih al -Muslim or Jamiat -Tirmidhi or whatever so I was listening to emir canner and Ran into this interesting section.

51:51

Let's Let's listen. I was raised as a Sunni Muslim and my father taught me of Jesus Islam has a lot to say about Jesus Christ His name is mentioned 93 times in the

52:04

Quran Now I'll continue with it, but I wanted to stop there so that we don't get flooded with the details

52:11

His name is mentioned 93 times in the Quran Couple years ago.

52:18

I did something really unusual on this program. I spent an entire dividing line doing nothing but going over with you the listening audience

52:28

Every single reference to the name Isa in the Quran We read every single verse of the

52:34

Quran that has the name Isa in it. Now, how did I know? That well because again you folks have been generous and I have a really good

52:43

Islamic library and I have something called the Cassis concordance, which gives you an exhaustive concordance of the entirety of the

52:53

Arabic Quran and so I looked up Isa and Therefore I had an exhaustive listing of all occurrences of Isa in the

53:03

Quran and I just wondered does anybody in the listening audience remember how many ayah we looked at I Bet you nobody does

53:13

I wouldn't expect almost anybody to even though a number of people said I found they found that really interesting We did that. I mean how many webcasts do things like that?

53:21

I don't know of any But Isa's name is mentioned the Quran 25 times 25 appearances not 93 25 and when

53:33

I heard that I sort of stopped and I went hmm,

53:43

I My recollection was the author says 98 References to but he was talking about Possible veiled references to or or not not the use of the name and Maybe that's what

53:59

Emir Kanner is talking about too, but he said his name appears nice No, it doesn't it appears 25 times in the

54:06

Quran Not 93 that's a big differentiation and I'd like to extend the possibility

54:12

Yeah, he's thinking about possible references. He's thinking about that same book but the problem is that would be use of secondary sources not primary sources and here's the same man who refers to hadith 957 and Again, I say why is it that arrogant and Emir Kanner are considered experts in Islam?

54:30

I'm a student of Islam and I catch them on errors all the time. I'm just a student of Islam I started studying

54:35

Islam in 2006. Okay, and yet I catch them making

54:43

Sloppy errors Ramadan 40 days long. No, it's not. It's a lunar month for crying out loud Anybody who's fasted during it knows that these kinds of errors.

54:57

Oh No, I Had seen that but I wanted to be able to finish this off and play that's that material

55:08

So no, I don't know where I could be able to get anything. I'm sorry callers. I apologize I'm looking at the time and I'm having finished playing this yet This is

55:17

I need to get to this because this is very very important to me right now. It is important to me that It's I have tried to be so careful.

55:27

I have not been perfect, but I have tried to be careful in The accuracy of the information that I present on Islam.

55:35

I try to get the decent the best resources I try to be accurate and Evidently, I've taken the wrong the wrong direction

55:46

Let's continue listening to what he says here. He's usually referenced as the son of Mary our father taught us of Jesus a

55:53

Jesus who is virgin -born a Jesus who lived a sinless life a Jesus who was prophet

56:00

Seems so similar Until you realize all of it is a dissimilarity

56:06

Even that which looks right isn't you see in the Quran when talked about the virgin birth

56:11

It is the same type of virgin birth They will say as Adam went unto and therefore there is no conception of the

56:17

Holy Spirit When you hear of him being a prophet it is the denial of his deity In fact the denial of Jesus comes with the lack of his crucifixion

56:26

The Quran says they did not kill Jesus nor did they crucify him, but it was someone like him The exact opposite magic hatch that It was someone like him that's not what the

56:37

Quran says That's not even direct quotation of surah 4157. It was made to appear unto them

56:46

Should be halay him, but it doesn't say that someone's made to look like him.

56:52

That's that's one interpretation But that's not for example in Western Islam the most popular

56:58

Interpretation substitutionary theory is in world Islam the most popular interpretation, but that's not what the

57:03

Quran says and I I catch things like that and I just go uh that that strikes me as as really odd and a reason for concern and That's really honestly the primary reason that I Have been engaging in this

57:28

If if Ergin Kanner had never said anything about debating people he never debated if Ergin Kanner hadn't talked about Shabir Ali I may never have had the interest to pursue this stuff

57:39

But if he wants to look back someday and and identify where he made the big mistake It was when he started trying to pretend to be something he was not to puff up his testimony and That as I have said is a tremendous act of disrespect to those who are converts from Islam That you would have to say well

58:03

I'm I was a convert from really good Islam in comparison to saying, you know, my dad was Muslim and my mom wasn't and I live with my mom, but you know,

58:12

I heard these things from my dad, but you know I got converted in high school just a regular kid and he was

58:18

I Was just a regular kid that got saved But I had some misidentifications about Jesus because of what my dad had taught us and here's what they were

58:27

And I really wasn't a good Muslim but you know for those who were here's some of the things they believe that would have been more than enough but he decided to go beyond that and So that's the problem.

58:42

So obviously each and every day there is a new development along these lines and Some of you are getting sick and tired of it.

58:51

Well, we need to see it through to the end now We've come this far. We need to see through it to the end. And so thanks for listening to the dividing line

58:57

We'll be back on Thursday afternoon Lord willing and who knows what new information will come out since then what topics there will be to address

59:06

But thanks for listening. We'll see you then. God bless We need a new

59:43

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