March 25, 2004

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 9 7 3 4 6 0 2 or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. And now with today's topic here is James white.

And good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line. 4 p .m. Mountain Standard Time on a Thursday afternoon. I don't know if we've actually ever been at this time before but hey, that's where we are right now.

That will leave pretty much everybody completely confused. But we have 49 people in channel at the moment so that Normally indicates something that make that we lost one gained one. So we're still 49.

I thought we've gotten 50 there. Anyway Probably not gonna be quite as big a group as normal until people figure out the new time therefore. This is your opportunity at 8 7 7 7 5 3 33 41 8 7 7 7 5 3 33 41.

We have open phones today. We've been playing a lot of clips on the program the past few weeks. The last program we did a rather full response to a soul force video. I was Reading some of their literature.

As I was taking the material back to the person who had lent it to me and I was also reading a book. It's an excellent book. I don't think I've mentioned on the program before the homosexual agenda. Exposing the principal threat to religious freedom today.

Alan Sears and Craig Austin. Alan Sears is the president CEO and general counsel of the Alliance Defense Fund and Alliance Defense Fund were the fine folks who assisted us. When we had our legal battle with mr Lynn over the subject of our debate on the subject of homosexuality.

There was a glowing illustration at that point of Really how these people view This battle. This is not a if you think these folks Intend to play fair give up on it. They have no intention of playing fair.

They have a particular direction that they want to go and they have a particular agenda that they are pursuing and Listen listen to this this on page 18 of the book. While you're filling up the phone lines at eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one the homosexual activists laid out a Six-point strategy to radically change America's perception of homosexual behavior.

There are six points for and listen to these. This is back almost 20 years ago. Talk about gays and gayness as loudly and often as possible. Notice not homosexuality. Change the words so that the issue it can be can be shifted.

Portray gays as victims not aggressive challengers. That's why most media outlets won't cover the gay pride parades because that's the aggressive side. You don't want people to see that number three give homosexual protectors a just K just cause.

That is your liberals, you know, give them a reason to get into this cause and they'll you know, really get get. Get into it they'll put themselves into it make gays look good make sitcoms about them where they're the only intelligent people in the group make the victimizers look bad.

Use terms like homophobe and solicit funds. The buck stops here I you get corporate America and major foundations to financially support the homosexual cause and that's what they've done and I was looking at the Material from Soulforce and the whole emphasis of This material they're sending out to people is that if you believe what the church has always believed If you believe what the Bible teaches Then very clearly.

You are a an aggressor. You are creating victims. You are perpetuating spiritual violence and no one wants to be accused of perpetuating violence and There are so many people in our society now. They've been they've been so their their thinking process has been so completely destroyed by the public education system in the NEA.

That's that just the very mention of violence even if it's a completely irrational Mentioning of it will automatically result in I don't want to touch that. I don't want to I can't be viewed that way.

You know and all we just see it around us all the time. That's why you see people just collapsing to this stuff. It's really really incredible, but this spiritual violence stuff. I have a feeling We're gonna be hearing that in a couple of weeks actually just a week from Saturday when I debate the Quote pastor and quote of the Metropolitan Community Church in Salt Lake City on gay marriage.

He's going to defend the assertion that the Bible Defends gay marriage and the only way you could do that is say well you see The Bible says we're to be loving and the Bible says that we are to to be accepting and that we are to accept God's gay lesbian bisexual and transgendered children and Therefore we are to give equal rights.

The Bible says there's no male nor female. And and all the rest that stuff and then then that's that's going to be the basis. I can't think of anything else I mean outside of getting into some really really horrifically bad Eisegesis of David and Jonathan or or the centurion and his slave or something like that.

Outside of really lame attempts like that. What what else could you say? I just I just don't know that's what I'm that's what I am Predicting. I spent some time on the Metropolitan Community Church website looking for Information something that would give me some idea Of some sort of biblical argument that could be presented because everything on marriage in the scriptures is about man and woman it's it's about complementarianism it's about about everything that Homosexual marriage could not possibly be there is no such thing.

It's an oxymoron, so I Don't know it's not going to be difficult to fill 20 -25 minutes however long the opening statement is I need to look at that with positive Presentation of what marriage is supposed to be in human sexuality is supposed to be from a biblical perspective.

I don't know what the other person is going to spend 20 -25 minutes yammering about. Unless it's to complain about alleged acts of spiritual violence and all the rest of stuff. I don't know we'll find out 877 -753 -3341 before we start taking our calls.

I I love that crock off button. Let me remind you once again of our cruise and the fact that time is passing us all by. Normally we have over a year between cruises. We only had 11 months this time and I've talked with so many people who go man.

I wish it could have gone. Oh, I wish I had done that. I you know we ended up taking a two-week vacation. Driving around and had flat tires. And it just wasn't anything exciting at all and yet it's cost all this money if we had just done that it would have been so Much more enjoyable.

We've gotten so much more out of it. Da da da da well now's your opportunity. The conference that we are seeking to put together that we are putting together. We have put together Is going to be a very important conference.

We're hoping that so the Lord is going to bless that that effort and this this cruise is going to be an opportunity of following up on that and really having if you've talked with any of the folks and the folks who channeled talk to the folks who went on the cruise and Just had a grand and glorious time.

We're gonna be the only group in our group so in other words just just Alpha Omega ministries and So I'm really hoping that some of you who haven't signed up yet. Who've said I'm gonna I'm gonna you need to need to get hold of Michael Fallon, and you need to start making some arrangements there.

It's very important that you don't put these types of things off to the last moment a lot of folks think cruises are like a like taking an airplane flight or something like that doesn't really work that way and the best prices and the best ability to to get on the cruises is early on so the early bird catches the worm shall we say and So we're definitely looking forward to that getting a chance to meet you and to being a part of the cruise.

So make sure that you hit the beautiful web page that mr. O 'Fallon and mr. Pierce put together and See the information that is available There so don't forget about that. We've have mentioned it in a couple programs.

And I need to remind you of that that it's very important that you take a look at that Early early on that's on the website also one other thing. I did blog this morning. Or maybe it was late last night.

I don't know. An article that I posted in regards to one dr. Douglas Cowan. Dr. Cowan is a professor at the University of Missouri, Kansas City as I recall professor of sociology, and he's written a book in which he Discusses the counter cult movements from a sociological Perspective, and I mentioned on my blog about a month ago that he had taken some shots at me spoke of my presenting egregious distortions of Roman Catholicism along with Dave Hunt and Jack Chick.

Now anyone who knows anything about the field immediately realizes that at that point dr. Cowan has Demonstrated a substantial misunderstanding at least of The difference between doing serious research and not doing serious research.

And I wrote to him and asked him and said hey, you know would you like to document this and got no response? So I wrote again yesterday Yesterday morning and the documentation the emails. I think there was about four rounds of email communication that went back and forth those Emails have been placed on our website linked from the blog, and I think you'll find it fascinating to look at.

He's a secular scholar. I mean he says in there that he was a minister in a United Church of Canada, but then proudly says that the United Church Canada's the first Protestant organization to accept gays and lesbians into its membership and ministries that tells you something about that particular church and So it is fascinating to see what the world would call real scholarship that completely and totally ignores the meaning of words rationality any type of Meaningful use the language.

It was just just a fascinating exchange yesterday. Truly is I think we've got our lines filled up now actually yay now at least you have four callers online. Maybe there's a fifth line. I don't know but If you're getting a busy signal then wait somebody hangs up, and then give us a give us a try again.

Let's go ahead and Start going to our phone calls in the order in which they were received so let's go to Alan in, Oklahoma.

Hi, Alan. Hey doctor. What how you doing? I'm good good. Hey quick example of a great eyes of Jesus for the gay marriage thing for Samuel 2041 you've got Jonathan and David weeping together. Mm-hmm. And you know the Hebrew word apparently they claim for something in relation to Sexual relationships, so you might want to take a look at that.

I've had that used on me before it's great. All right, so it's a it's a side splitter. Let me tell you. Okay, anyway. I didn't want to get carried around that I my calls about full scripture, and I've I am a Pretty much a southern Baptist, and I've got a friend who converted from southern from pretty much a southern Baptist belief to Eastern Orthodoxy.

Hmm and I've read I've read quite a bit of your stuff on Roman Catholicism. I've I've looked at a bunch of your stuff on the website and listen to pretty much all your debates on Catholicism. His deal is.

We've been arguing soul scripture in particular and when he looks at second Timothy 316. He says. You know it says that So the man of God may be fully equipped for every good work or adequately or adequate and equipped for every good work.

He is saying that you know it Scripture is not necessarily the thing that all by itself will equip the man of God for every good work. He'll look at places like James 1 where Patience must finish his work so that you may be maybe mature and complete not liking in anything.

He'll look at Ephesians 4 where the preaching preaching of the Preaching of the elders. It's also. You know makes the makes the church complete, and I didn't really know how to answer him. On that particular point he has no answer for example for Matthew 15.

Mm-hmm. And the argument about judging judging tradition by scripture. But I was curious if you could give me a little insight on the on that argument.

Yeah, actually, I think he's probably just borrowing that from Robertson genus or Pat Madrid or somebody else it almost sounds like Possibly the Eastern Orthodox organization he's dealing with or representing.

There's a sort of an Americanized version of that and they just basically utilize the same kinds of arguments against all the scripture that Roman Catholics do and There are. I've talked with some Eastern Orthodox folks that don't really think that those folks are actually Really Eastern Orthodox so.

That's that's something to keep in mind as well. Is it the Frankie Schaefer type Eastern Orthodox?

He's gotten into do you know. Actually he doesn't go in too much for Frankie Schaefer because he finds him too vitriolic.

Okay, all right. Well. That's that's pretty pretty standard to type argumentation. That is an argument that we hear a lot. David King deals with that in Holy Scripture volume one when he exegetes that passage.

Oh, yeah I need to see my friend Lindy the book too and I use that to throw a bunch of patristic quotes to show that there's no.

Consensus Patrus. I guess yes, well book book one is the biblical part so yeah. You don't have to track that one down. But in essence the the answers is fairly close at hand and and that is when we're talking about the sufficiency That is mentioned in Scripture regarding the man of God that is a part of a sentence that is a Hinnok clause following the previous part of the sentence and the description that's come before that says that all scripture is God breathed or breathed out by God and Is profitable and then you have this this list of four things?

For teaching and that's the same term that is translated as doctrine. For reproof for correction for training and righteousness and these four words taken together give us the the entire orb of the preaching ministry of the elder within the church the the explication of the Word of God the application the the Discipline so on so forth and so when it says that the man of God may be equipped For every completely equipped for every good work.

Then the the Aragon Agathon the good work that is being discussed here is within the context of the proclamation of the Word of God and the teaching of of Doctrine and that's what we're talking about when we talk about solo scriptura.

We are not in any way saying that Trials and tribulations That are made real to us and through which we are sanctified by the Holy Spirit or somehow irrelevant. That's a completely different area. We're talking there about the creation of Christian character.

The whole issue of how we as believers apply the Word of God in our lives. And so just what they've done is they've gone looking for the word perfect or complete and And gone oh well I I found it over in this this over here.

And therefore I ignore the context in which it is found initially and just attach it to all these other words or They'll use instead of The term that's used in second Timothy 3 17 Exartidzo they'll use a related term and right and think that they're actually looking the same thing all the rest of the kind of stuff.

So really the question has to be and this is a question that I asked Patrick Madrid many years ago in our debate in San Diego when the Santa Ana winds were blowing and everybody was about to melt from heat.

I Asked him is preaching the infallibility of the Pope a good work and He said that it was well. How does how do the scriptures then equip you to? Teach the Distinctive doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church.

Yeah, the infallibility of the Pope or the Marian dogmas or whatever it might be when Paul is writing to Timothy He knows his time is short. He knows this is probably the last communication He's going to have with him when he says to Timothy look Evil times are coming there are going to be men who are going to rise from within the eldership of the church and there they're Going to drop people away.

They're going to deceive people deceive and being deceived all the rest of stuff at that very time when he should have been Directing Timothy to whatever external non-biblical source that he was supposed to be referring to at that very time Paul says Look to that which is they honest off that which is God breathed as your source for your teaching and your reproof and your correction and all the rest this type of thing and That is what's going to make you Equipped as the man of God that's what's going to give you what you need is the man of God to pursue your ministry within the Church to confuse that with other passages about how God uses suffering in our lives and brings about patience and things like that is to compare apples and oranges and and To not even begin to really show any understanding of what the actual issue concerning sola scriptura is we're not saying that God just simply Flew by dropped off the scriptures and then has left.

There's no Holy Spirit. There's no work of sanctification our lives and nothing like that. That's not the issue. The issue of course is what is The final authority in matters of faith and doctrine. What is the sole infallible rule of faith the sole infallible rule of faith cannot be?

The Holy Spirit's creating Christian character in me because I'm not going to be here 50 years from now. So obviously the the the issues there are being confused when they use that kind of that kind of an argument.

They're just ignoring the context itself. And I would try to bring them back to the context to say where does scripture say? That in the work of teaching the work of expounding doctrine the work of Correction and discipline in the church that there is some other Theano star source that we are to refer to.

And where how how can we have? Certainty knowing what it is and they there's no possible way they can answer that question none at all. Okay, that's extremely helpful. Thank you so much. Okay. Well. I hope it's helpful in talking to your friend.

All right, God bless, thanks, bye-bye eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one. Hey, I haven't been where Joseph is in quite some time. Joseph is in Lynchburg, Virginia. I was there a number of years ago at the founders conference, and how you doing Joseph?

Doing good great to talk to you. I was first in show. Oh really a couple months ago. Yeah, I Remember it. Well yeah.

We may actually we may actually we've been talking about possibly carrying that because we can still purchase them from From CRI, but yeah, well you know like I said I spoke in Lynchburg at the founders conference about four years ago, or so and so.

Glad glad to make your acquaintance.

Yeah, a couple months on Today studying the book of Acts and one of the professors was talking about because we were talking about the Jews and He posed the question whether the law should be kept by the Christian Jews that he thought it was necessary for Christian Jews in the New Testament to continue offering blood sacrifices.

Just during the apostolic period or to today. Well.

No, he said he said not today only because it's not available. Then that plane to the atonement in other words. And and I'll ask you pays the penalty for our sins. Then he said that we are not just our sins so we go to heaven.

But we'll still be judged. Cooks and stuff or work. Well. That's that is.

I've never heard of that particular perspective. I Don't really don't know what to say about the assertion that Christian Jews were supposed to be doing such things. Obviously that the first thought across my mind is is there a problem with the canonicity of the book of Hebrews.

Which makes such a clear argument that where there has been a change of law. There's also change of priesthood and that Christ has fulfilled that that priesthood that the sacrifices were merely a Foreshadowing and that indeed the entire purpose of the book of Hebrews is to encourage Perseverance in the part of those who were basically being told to do the same things that your professor Was saying as you present it there to go back to the old ways and that doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever so it's difficult to know exactly how to respond to that since I really don't understand what is what is being said and how it Could be promoted in light of the thesis of the book of Hebrews, but as far as judgment goes Judgment for sin is indeed what takes place upon the cross of Calvary and if we believe in substitutionary atonement Then the wrath of God is poured out upon our substitute in our place.

Which is why we do not fear the wrath of God for our sins instead. What we fear is is a fear. It's born out of love and thanks Thanksgiving for what God has done for us and that is we hate our sin because we know what?

What God sees it as we want to be holy as he is holy it is a love relationship. It is a recognition of our new nature and what we desire to be rather than this servile fear that well, you know God's keeping these certain accounts and I have to have a certain amount over on this side or certain not over on that side and So as far as judgment is concerned that that judgment would be based upon What God has done in us by his spirit.

Not in regards to our standing before God and the issue of salvation itself. Jesus himself said that those who believe in him shall not enter into judgment, but have already passed out of death and into life and so that That would be the the issue there.

But I I really don't understand in regards to what your professor said what his doctrine of atonement is. I'm not going to ask for a name here because to be honest with you when I was there Just I don't know.

I think it was no more than actually three years ago now. I think about it some of the students that I met with from your Institute of higher learning Indicated that they were almost having to sneak in Because they knew of people who had been removed for promoting quote-unquote Calvinism.

So I wouldn't want to get you in any trouble or anything like that. But my question of course would be what is the consistent? Teaching of this individual on the subject of the atoning death of Christ.

What was God's intention in the atonement? What was the result of the atonement those some of those things would sort of help a little bit in understanding? Where You know what kind of background was behind the statements because the statements as you have represented them sound very very odd.

Right because he's like off on a lot of stuff like he doesn't he doesn't believe. Okay, you know that we're calling to be you know ordained.

Yeah, except in the Southern Baptist Convention all you got to do is say I feel that way and that's that's that's more than That's all you need. You know I mean from my perspective at least on that particular issue.

You know within Reformed Baptist circles. It's not enough to say I feel that way. Then the elders are supposed to look at you and say okay. But God gifts the men that he calls the ministry and therefore where is the evidence of your gifts?

Which I think is is what the elders should do, but you know I again it does is this teaching New Testament theology? What what field is this person teaching?

New Testament, I mean I could. I don't care. I can tell you it is. I don't know if you've heard of him. Do you want me to tell you? I don't care. That's fine. It's Dr.. Donald Fowler.

Hmm the name sounds a little bit familiar.

Okay, I mean he's like he's writing a commentary on first and second Kings right now. I mean like that's especially studied Hebrew and stuff. But like he just I don't know he brought up the book of Hebrews, and he quoted like chapter 9 I'm gonna carve it.

Hello.

Okay, well hey, you know I hate to tell you this, but we're losing your your signal, and I would think that Hebrews 9 would be the The place to go because it's it's talking about the fact that he has entered into the heavenly tabernacle and as such that's The the finishedness of the work is is emphasized there, but hey I sort of wondered when I when Joseph called I said, but that signal sounds odd and he was on the cell phone and not all cell phones and Systems have quite gotten up to full speed yet, but Thank You Joseph for your call and keep listening with discernment.

And hopefully you'll have an opportunity of engaging some of those subjects in the class eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one. Let's go ahead and take our break. We come back. We'll be talking with Aaron and Damien and your phone calls don't do what you do all the time that is wait till the very end of the hour.

Get your call in now.

Under the guise of tolerance modern culture grants alternative lifestyle status to homosexuality. Even more disturbing some within the church attempt to revise and distort Christian teaching on this behavior in Their book.

The same-sex controversy. James White and Jeff Neal write for all who want to better understand the Bible's teaching on the subject. Explaining and defending the foundational Bible passages that deal with homosexuality including Genesis Leviticus and Romans.

Expanding on these scriptures they refute the revisionist arguments including the claim that Christians today need not adhere to the law in a straightforward and loving manner. They appeal to those caught up in a homosexual lifestyle to repent and to return to God's plan for his people.

The same-sex controversy defending and clarifying the Bible's message about Homosexuality. Get your copy in the bookstore at a omen or. Millions of petitioners from around the world are employing Pope John Paul the second to recognize the Virgin Mary as co-redeemer with Christ.

Elevating the topic of Roman Catholic views of Mary to national headlines and widespread discussion. In his book Mary another redeemer James White sidesteps hostile rhetoric and cites directly from Roman Catholic sources to explore this volatile topic.

He traces how Mary of the Bible esteemed mother of the Lord Obedient servant and chosen vessel of God has become the immaculately conceived bodily assumed Queen of Heaven. Viewed as co-mediator with Christ and now recognized as co-redeemer by many in the Roman Catholic Church.

Mary another redeemer is fresh insight into the woman the Bible calls blessed among women and an invitation to single-minded devotion to God's truth. You can order your copy of James White's book Mary another redeemer at a omen org.

This portion of the dividing line has been made possible by the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. The Apostle Paul spoke of the importance of solemnly testifying of the gospel of the grace of God. The proclamation of God's truth is the most important element of his worship in his church.

The elders and people of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church invite you to worship with them this coming Lord's Day. The morning Bible study begins at 930 a .m. And the worship service is at 1045. Evening services are at 630 p .m.

On Sunday and the Wednesday night prayer meeting is at 7. The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805 North 12th Street in Phoenix. You can call for further information at 602 -26-grace. If you're unable to attend you can still participate with your computer and real audio at PR BC org.

Where the ministry extends around the world through the archives of sermons and Bible study lessons available 24 hours a day.

Sola Scriptura and the Sufficiency of Scripture

And welcome back to the dividing line, my name is James White. It's 432 on a Thursday afternoon and we are live. Taking your phone calls at 8 7 7 7 5 3 33 41. Let's talk with Aaron in California. Hi, Aaron.

Hello. Hello. I'm here. Yes, sir. Hi. I have a question. The concerns Is a long one. Haskell's wagers methodology applied to Sola Scriptura and It's prophecies. I.

Take it. You're familiar with Haskell's wager. I am familiar with Blaise Pascal and his writings and.

Very quickly, it's based on you take Some. It's better to take an option that has a possible gain even if it might fail rather than taking something That's guaranteed to fail.

Yeah, generally most people understand the wager to in essence say that it is significantly better to believe in God than to not believe in God and risk the Consequences that come with those with such non-belief.

Yeah, I know it sounds quaint and many people disagree with it, but I'm well disagree with believing in God just for that purpose I'd also argue being reformed. It's impossible to believe in God for that purpose.

But I hear many complaints lodged against Sola Scriptura and also atheists lodging complaints against arguments against the Bible's Prophecies not being complete enough not being clear enough. Many things on that on that level and I'm wondering if the argumentation which I'd like you to Either give me the error in my logic or Verify it because I have not read as much as I'd like to on Sola Scriptura.

If the Roman Catholic and an atheist they I'll start with the atheist. They tend to say well because it does not seem like the prophecies in the Bible have been completed perfectly and there's some Argumentation on how some may not Have been fulfilled some may have been fulfilled at two different times therefore we don't need to trust the Bible and and and again the Roman Catholic would go over and say because The the Bible is not complete.

There's some parts with different different interpretation. Well, not really on that level. Rather than because it's a fallible list of infallible books they say well because we have a fallibility in there, therefore we can go over to the Magisterium and so on now the argumentation I usually present is is usually it's it's pretty much why.

Where we can verify Roman Catholics have a guaranteed list of problems in the failures of the Pope. Even things they themselves admit. So where how does the argumentation on their side work to say since we have something that only is?

That's only guaranteed on many parts, but not completely perfect. We can go over to something that is guaranteed promised to be imperfect. Whereas it's not about we need to constantly verify that the Bible is perfect.

It's rather. What better do we have? What human made prophecies are there that are more verifiable than the ones in the Bible?

Well, I I hear what you're saying the the problem with each of the two arguments is is difference the the Roman Catholic Argumentation regards to the scriptures on the nature of the canon is a very circular one.

I'm sure we'll be hearing it in just a matter of weeks on Long Island when we debate the issue of the Apocrypha because Fundamentally the argument is the Roman Catholic canon of the scriptures is correct because Rome says so it is it is a the fact that the inerrancy or I'm sorry the infallibility of the church and her authority really becomes the issue there and They don't believe that they're going to a less certain thing.

When they go to the Magisterium we would say they are but that would have to be something that would need to be demonstrated Historically which is possible to do and also demonstrated biblically. That I don't think that that really is is relevant to the wager issue as far as the as the atheist goes well.

The problem is, you know, it's it's similar to something I was going to mention earlier in regards to the homosexual Apologists they will say for example that no one can really know what arson a coyotes means.

I was noticing this and the soul force materials that I was reading. The whole idea from their perspective is that look it is impossible to really come to any conclusions since there are disagreements therefore There is no reason to believe any particular conclusion since other people disagree and that's in essence What the atheist is saying is that okay?

Well, maybe you can come up with a consistent way of interpreting this passage or or okay. Maybe we don't know enough about the particular context of a historical fulfillment to actually say it couldn't have happened this way.

Or it didn't happen that way same very very type of the very same type of argumentation and It requires some level of almost infallibility or exhaustive knowledge to make the kind of arguments they're making and As time has passed the number of arguments number of passages They can refer to has gotten smaller and smaller as we have as the knowledge base.

Concerning the historical context continues to grow and I suppose you could argue that someday that knowledge base would be wiped out if the Lord tarried that long but Still even at that point. It's an irrational argument, and I don't know that.

That again you just basically make the argument. Well, it's better to believe it than believe nothing at all because there's all sorts of other things out there that people would throw out that would Say well, why don't we believe this when we believe that when we believe an expansion on Scripture is with new books of Scripture in Mormon.

I didn't want to parallel it that closely. Just just the methodology. Well what Rome? I'll stick with Rome because you're right. They apply way too differently to the two examples Rome would say that since Rome would argue is arguing that we have to absolutely have the Bible with perfect interpretation among all peoples and everything and If we don't have an absolutely perfected Artistry of the Bible then we have the then we.

It's okay to trust in something that's guaranteed to be flawed. Well, I'm wondering that that's where they're trying to take it. They're holding up the standard. They're not holding to well of course.

There's that and that's the nature of of Commitment to Sola Ecclesia on the part of Roman Catholics is something. It's very easily demonstrated. But in reality what they're saying is is that they're not going to just automatically grant Your assertion that this is imperfect.

They're going to in essence say that That it any imperfection is on a different level a different foundation than the issues that they are solving by making reference to the Authority of the Magisterium, and so I'm not.

I'm just not really role-playing. I'm just playing devil's advocate and their their answer you would ask what you know. What do they say their their answer is going to be somewhat along that very line and that is that well we may not have perfect Unanimity in our own in our own.

You know amongst our own people, but that's not really the issue the issue is we have the ability to have it. And that's what gives us a certainty about the scriptures. And so in essence the argument would be we get the best of both worlds and of course in reality they end up losing both.