Modern Mormon Deception and Lies

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Christian thinking to every area of life. I would say if the authorities didn't want us involved in the public square, they ought not to have crucified

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So that's what's up. You ready for the flight? Yeah. It's gonna be a long one. Yeah. It's gonna be a long one.

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I'm ready for it, too. I'm very excited about it. So everybody knows, if you've been watching Apologia for any length of time, you know that we are passionately committed to bringing the gospel to the cults and counterfeit

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Christian religions like Mormonism, like the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. You name it, we try to engage with it.

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And so you know, we have a long history of evangelism with our Mormon friends and neighbors going to the

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Mormon temple, standing on the street, engaging them in conversation. You know that we, that's part of one of the most important things that we do in our ministry is equipping

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Christians to do the work that we do to bring the gospel to, say, the Mormons. And so we're honored to be a part of that work.

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And we have seen so many Latter -day Saints come to a saving knowledge of the true Jesus Christ through this ministry.

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And we're grateful to be a part of that. And so everybody knows that we're passionate about Latter -day Saints and reaching them with the gospel.

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And so things have changed a bit over the last couple of decades in Mormonism. There used to be, and this is, again,

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I'm just speaking from my own experience here, but there used to be a pretty solid concerted effort of defense of classical

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Mormonism from like even in the 90s, Fair LDS .org and men and organizations like that.

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And so they used to really work hard as apologists to defend classic Mormonism. You don't see as much of that kind of concerted effort any longer in terms of like a defense of classical

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Mormonism, trying to prove it from the Bible. Classics being true to its roots.

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True to its roots, original source, that kind of stuff. Yeah, Brigham said that and we believe that and here's why.

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Now, I've mentioned many times, there's a shift, there's a change taking place within modern Mormonism.

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I've used the word facelift because it's an appropriate thing to say in terms of what

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Mormons today try to do to get away from classical teachings of, say, Brigham Young. Unbelievably racist things in their past.

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Polygamy as the way to exaltation. If you deny polygamy, you'll be damned. You know, there's just a lot.

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Adam God doctrine and Heavenly Father having sex with Mary. You know, there's just a lot that Mormons try to get away from today.

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And so dealing with the modern Mormon is challenging because we don't have a lot of heavy hitters today coming from the

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Mormon Church to defend Mormonism. And so you have some people who are trying to offer defensive

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Mormonism. So we try to engage with them. So today we're gonna deal with Ward Radio.

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Ward Radio is a crew of guys that I actually think I'd probably love to sit down with and have dinner with because they obviously like to laugh and so do

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I. However, there's a time and a place, I would say. And so we're gonna be engaging with them because recently we put up a collision episode.

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Some of you guys may have seen it. If you haven't seen it yet, look through the thread here. Collision. It's in the last two months or so.

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Just look through the thread. Collision on Mormonism. And you'll see that we actually put out a video talking about lying and deceiving or deceptive

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Mormons. And that's exactly what Ward Radio is comprised of. Lying, deceptive, deceiving

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Mormons. They can't seem to decide where they want to stand.

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And so I'll bring you into this discussion by way of a clip that's still up on their channel now.

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They're stuck with it. They know that I've seen the clip. They know that I've seen the title of the clip.

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They know that other Mormons were also confused by the clip because the title itself says something and the video itself says something about them trying to essentially deny that Mormons believe that they get, through exaltation, their own planet one day.

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Not every Mormon, but that is the goal of exaltation. So I want you guys just...

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And to populate it with people. And to populate it with people, to have spirit children. Just like this planet. Exactly, exactly.

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So if you guys take a look at my screen right here, you'll see the video's still up on their channel.

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The title's still the same because they know that now they're stuck with it.

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And what you're gonna see in today's episode is a lot, a lot of backpedaling, a lot of excuse -making, a lot of incoherent responses.

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But the video says this, debunking the evangelical lie that Mormons get their own planets.

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Featuring fake pastor Mike Winger. So I want you to see it. Debunking the evangelical lie that Mormons get their own planets.

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So if you were to read that right now, what would you surmise? What would you understand that they're talking about?

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That Mike Winger says they can get their own planet. And that's a what? A lie.

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And it's a lie. It's a lie that evangelicals have conjured up. That this is what Mormons believe.

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So, so ready? It's a lie. It's an evangelical lie that Mormons get their own planets.

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Get that. The title's there. Gentlemen, you're not getting away from it. You can't escape it.

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All the backpedaling and excuse -making and oh, we were joking doesn't change anything.

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The video's up. The title's the same because you know, you can't change it. You know, you can't change it. Debunking the evangelical lie that Mormons get their own planets.

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So who's telling a lie? Evangelicals. What is the lie that Mormons get their own planets?

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That's what the title says. Now further, that's not just what the title says. If you listen to the clip and we have the entire original source that it came from, we'll play through some of that in just a little bit here, but this is the clip.

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It's only a minute long from Ward Radio. And here we go. And when you have enough babies made in heaven, you create, you take a planet, form a planet, and then you send your babies down.

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Hey, congratulations, Mike Winger. You watched the Godmakers animation cartoon. He seems to know a lot more about exaltation than we do.

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Like I don't know, like what scriptures are you reading, Mike? I'm not, I'm just here in Doctrine and Covenants 76 and it says, the people who go to the celestial kingdom received the testimony of Jesus, believed on his name, that by keeping the commandments, they'd be washed and clean, they overcame by faith, and wherefore as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God.

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I'm not seeing the Kolob or the infinite babies or the populating a planet. I mean, does he think we talk about this?

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Do you think that's like half of Come Follow Me? Like they think that we like really believe this. They think that like we really believe this.

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They think that like we really believe this. Believe what? That Mormons get their own planet and they populate the planet with their own spirit offspring like Elohim did with his goddess wives of this earth.

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Yeah. Gentlemen, do you not believe that? That would be my first question. Do you believe it, yes or no?

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In the video that they have done now to respond to our proving they were being deceptive, they now admit, yes, we believe that, but it's much more beautiful than that.

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That's what I really got as their final answer, and you'll see it in a minute here, is that they're really upset that like it's a beautiful thing and we wanted you to express it with the beauty that it really is.

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The point is, is you believe it. No lie. No lie detected. No lie detected.

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No cap. Yeah, no lie detected. No cap. Let me try to speak your language, gentlemen. Yeah It's what you believe.

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It is absolutely what you believe, and you're being deceptive in this video. Like they think we actually believe this.

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Yeah, because you do. He brought up the Godmakers. Right. Do you believe what that depicts?

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Yeah. Do you believe in the theology that's reported in that documentary? But it's saying what you believe.

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I mean, I don't agree with Ed Decker and many, many things, nor with where the Godmakers went.

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I didn't like it at all, but what do you disagree with? Where's the lie? And they think that like we actually believe this, but it goes on.

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Here we go. So wouldn't we be a more sexy, less frumpy people if we did believe in eternal sex like that?

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Like, don't you think? Come on! And the issue is,

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I got Chappelle's show, Dave. They just popped up as a suggested video for the next. You just outed yourself.

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You know what the algorithm is doing to me. Okay. Dave Chappelle's hilarious.

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I'm not agreeing with everything he says. It's not an endorsement. Maybe they were just putting, the algorithm was putting their comedy show in the same category as Dave Chappelle.

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That might be it. So if you go back, and we're not going to rehash it all today, but if you go back into the collision video that I did,

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I was actually demonstrating that these young men are deceptive. They are very deceptive because they know that their church teaches this.

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And so to call it an evangelical lie that Mormons get their own planets, it's just, it's just deception.

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It's not an evangelical lie. It's what your Mormon prophets and apostles have taught clearly for generations.

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And what I did in the collision video is I did a quote heavy collision video, which I don't like to do, but a quote heavy collision video, just quoting some of the testimony of your prophets and apostles and what they've said about Mormons getting their own planets and populating them with their own spirit children.

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It's clear. Mormons teach this. Mormons believe this. It's not an evangelical lie.

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That's how they believe they got here. Yeah, exactly. And so we're going to deal with that because now they've done a response video to the collision that I did.

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And it's, I'd say, look, I mean this with as much respect as I can give you gentlemen. It's one of the messiest, most incoherent responses that I have ever received from a

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Mormon. And I genuinely mean that. I'm not being facetious. I'm not, I'm not exaggerating.

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It's one of the messiest things because I tried to accurately represent, okay, what excuse are you making here?

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And I can't make heads or tails of it because you switch from, we were joking to, no, we really do believe that.

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We just don't think you said it with the beauty that it really is. You can't even see,

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I don't even think you guys know what your excuse is for what you said. The point is you guys are liars.

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You guys are deceptive. You guys are trying to engage in a facelift of your religion.

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That's what your whole channel is about. You try to make excuses for past teaching. And in this case, you said that it was an evangelical lie that Mormons get their own planets one day.

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Okay. Spencer Kimball. Each one of you has it within the realm of his possibility to develop a kingdom over which you will preside as its king and God.

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You will need to develop yourself and grow in ability and power and worthiness to govern such a world with all of its people.

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We educate ourselves. Again, this is teachings of Spencer W. Kimball. We educate ourselves in the secular field and the spiritual field so that we may one day create worlds, people, and govern them.

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Now, quick question here about the evangelical lie of Mormons getting their own planet one day. And Kwaku's sort of laughing about, don't you think we'd be less frumpy people if we believed in eternal sex?

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Question, when your prophet is saying here that we're going to create worlds, people, and govern them. Question, ready?

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Let's find the lie. Do you believe that through exaltation with your goddess wives that you will have celestial sex to create these people and to govern these worlds?

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Yay or nay? Yes or no? Yes or no? And if the answer is yes, then there's no evangelical lie, is there?

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And Mike Winger, part of how he said that, I was like, I'm not sure exactly what he means by that. Like you produce all these children, then you get the planet.

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I was like, I'm not sure where he's getting that part. But what he was aiming at was true. Mormons believe that through exaltation they get their own planet one day.

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They will populate it with their own spirit offspring like Elohim did with this earth. And gentlemen, you know you believe it.

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I know you think that it's beautiful. I know you think that it's beautiful, but actually it's theologically horrific.

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And I mean, throw every abominable word upon it, that's what it is.

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But you actually believe it. So I'll let you guys jump in here. I've been doing a lot of talking. Well, yeah, before we get too far in this,

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I just want to say that one, an ad hominem attack is the sign of a failed argument.

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So if you happen to watch their episode, it was, I don't know, 30 minutes maybe? Well, at least the first 15.

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Of just literally them just laughing at you, Jeff, making fun of you, making fun of your appearance, just all these different things.

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And Quaku even says like, they're going to bring this up, that this is an ad hominem attack, and then just keeps going.

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And it was just like, it was hard to watch, if I'm being honest. Guys, if you see this, it was difficult to watch because it was just you guys just making fun of Jeff for a long time and not actually addressing anything.

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And especially, you know, Quaku, like we're not going to levy ad hominem attacks at you.

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We're not going to make fun of the way you look or anything like that. But like, you are a demonstrable liar.

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On multiple accounts. This isn't like just some accusation we're levying at you. Like, we've shown it.

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You're incredibly dishonest. A lot of backtracking. If you guys, like, make up your mind, do you want to be taken serious, or do you want to be a comedy show that just clowns the whole time?

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And to that point, can I just say this? I don't want to take the story off too much. But they make the claim, you're going to hear it a little bit here, that we're just a comedy show.

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We're not apologists. And then they say we provide a defense for our faith. It's like, well, that's called apologia.

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A reasoned defense. You provide a reasoned defense for Mormonism, that makes you an apologist. You can have atheist apologists.

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You can have Marxist apologists. You guys are engaging in the defense of Mormonism. You are apologists.

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You do laugh, and we love a good joke, and we love to laugh and have fun. But in moments like this, you're being deceptive.

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You're not just laughing, you're engaging in mockery, and you're also lying. Yeah, and so,

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I mean, Kwaku, you used to want to be taken serious. You sat here at this table and wanted to be taken serious.

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I've seen debates where you wanted to be taken serious. So, like, if you don't want to be taken serious, and you just want to be a comedy show, then just come out and say, hey, we're a comedy show, don't take it serious.

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Because even in this episode we're responding to, you start off just clowning for a while, and then you want to be taken serious at the end.

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And then it's like, well, which is it? Just pick one, because it's hard to know what you want. And just for the record,

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I sent this, you guys' show, to a very dear friend of ours. He asked me not to quote him, so I'm not going to.

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Mormon apologist has been a Mormon apologist for a long, long time. Longer than you've been alive.

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Still is. Still teaches at Wards every week. A dear friend of ours. We love him very much. He loves us very much.

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And I sent this to him. I was like, hey, what do you think about this? And he was furious. By the way you guys treated

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Jeff, he was appalled by it. The doctrine that you guys mock repeatedly is a doctrine that's very dear and near to him, that he's been teaching a very long time, and he was highly offended by that.

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So it's not just us that was offended by your behavior. It's other LDS are highly offended by the way you guys are acting.

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And so this is just a challenge to you. If you want to be taken serious, then you should act respectable.

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So there you go. I'm not going to bog down this episode because we have a lot of clips to go through.

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Going through all of the many, many, many, many quotes of Mormon prophets and apostles teaching that in fact

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Mormons through exaltation or working through exaltation to Godhood, there is going to be the hope of your own planet one day and people in it with your own spirit offspring, just like the

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God of this earth did. Just go watch the collision video to get a smattering of text from original sources.

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But let's just dig right in to the new video. After the collision episode, they just did this.

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The name of the video is debunking the anti -Mormon Burger King of Apologia Studios.

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Debunking the anti -Mormon Burger King of Apologia Studios. That would be yours truly. And we'll let this play out for a minute.

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This video is basically having to do with those lion Mormons. And the whole series is titled

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Collision. And I think that's cool. That's fine. The movie just came out yesterday.

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No, sorry, it came out today. No, yesterday. And it's late. Anyway, I just think you paint the world with oils of your own heart.

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We're not trying to collide with you. We want to build Zion together. We want to be part of the body of Christ and help you in your most noble efforts, especially against abortion and service projects for those that are less privileged and so on and so forth.

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So we don't really see why you have to clash with us. We think there's much bigger fish to fry out there, especially as Christians.

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And if we cast out devils by the power of Beelzebub, there aren't fish to fry. That's the fish sandwiches at McDonald's.

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I'm sorry. Also, also, I know we've gone straight to ad hominem.

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I know they're going to point that out. But you know, the tick tocks where they try to prove that politicians are actually wearing a mask.

25:21

Does he not look like a guy wearing another guy's head? He 100 % looks like he's wearing the mask of a well -trimmed beard.

25:32

But yes, it does give that effect. OK, that is he's a lizard person. I'm sorry. There's no way he's not part lizard.

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David Ike, this guy's a reptilian. He is a Nisean Ninja Turtle.

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That's true. Maybe that was how the Illuminati has to tell you who they really are so you can't get mad at the karma.

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Ninja Turtle, this guy's a reptilian. I'm calling it. Jeff Durbin proved to me you don't eat babies.

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He is an adrenochrome sucking baby eater. 100%. He's going to take me to court.

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Your Honor, I don't eat babies. OK. OK. With that said,

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I think we've proved the point that I was about to make. I think I saw his name on the Epstein list. Oh, my gosh.

26:24

Was he wearing the crown when he got onto the Lolita Express? Are you suggesting he was wearing his crown when he got on the

26:32

Lolita Express? Have you guys seen? You guys know the Santa Claus, the second movie, the Tim Allen one where he's fighting the evil

26:38

Santa? I don't remember. That's like the third one. Oh, vaguely like in the back of my mind.

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He looks like nine different people. I've got so many references.

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OK. Let me finish the substantive part of our claim. How am

26:57

I the one that wants to be substantive here? All right. Now I'm just thinking about Burger King. Yeah. I want onion rings.

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Like his church, it's also a business that's failing. Oh, you bring up another meme that somebody sent us when you talk about businesses that are failing.

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I hate to say it, but this was the other meme. Profiting off God. That is a savage meme right there having to do with the fact that, indeed, these people are profiting off of God.

27:26

So anyway, how do you use Christ's blood to turn a buck? Well, first of all, obviously, let's just dismiss all of the ad hom and silly stuff,

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Adrenochrome and all that stuff. But just to address and to show the hypocrisy in the argument. First of all,

27:44

I would ask you this. Do you guys know anything about my financial situation? Anything?

27:50

You know anything? Do you know that I have never owned a home and I still don't own a home? I'm 45 years old.

27:56

Don't own a home. Nothing wrong with owning a home, but I don't own a home. My cars are old.

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I don't have a lot of money in the bank. I can tell you right now, this is the truth, and there's evidence of this.

28:13

You can ask anybody here. That Pastor Luke and I, from the very beginning of Apologia, worked for free or for almost nothing for many, many years.

28:22

And the ministries that we've all started would start off with absolutely no pay, no money, working almost three full -time jobs for ministries that aren't actually paying us or paying us properly.

28:35

Now, I want to just say, Scripture does say that the laborer is worthy of his wages. There's nothing wrong with a person who is in ministry being paid for their work.

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That's in the Bible. The laborer is worthy of his wages. It says, don't muzzle the ox while it treads out the grain.

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So that's a biblical principle. You can mock it all you want, but I think if you knew our lives and knew how we live our lives, you'd be awfully ashamed of what you're trying to suggest here.

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But I don't know. I mean, I think if we compared Apologia Church's portfolio to the Mormon Church's portfolio and said who's profiting the most off of God, I think we would see a discrepancy between the two.

29:15

So that's my point. Going all the way back to its founder, its progenitor. My point is this, guys, look, you don't even really believe this.

29:21

My point is you have shifting standards. You can't decide where you want to stand. You don't know our lives.

29:26

You don't know how we live our lives. You don't know how we've been paid or not been paid for years.

29:32

You can ask my family about that one, especially my wife. She'll be glad to share with you exactly how that looked, digging through couch cushions to find money to feed our kids and all of that.

29:44

But my point is you don't know what you're talking about, and you're using an argument that you don't actually believe because it is your church that profits greatly from the

29:57

Mormon gospel and from the Mormon people. And so let's use arguments that don't work against us at the same time.

30:04

How about that? Can I say one thing? Sure. I thought this was interesting, this comment about it's completely outlandish, the church failing and all of that.

30:14

What does that even mean? A couple weeks ago being present for all the baptisms, number one, that were there.

30:20

But I remember a family member of a friend was there to watch their grandson get baptized, one of our good friends.

30:29

And she's talking to me over the pews, and she says, I just have to tell you, this is one of the most prolific churches

30:34

I've ever been to. And I started thinking about what she meant by that, and I started looking around, and I just see kids running around everywhere.

30:42

I see babies everywhere. I see large families. And I'm literally thinking prolific, pro -life, prolific, like filled with vitality, filled with life, filled with signs of life, right?

30:55

Not a room full of even all elderly people or anything like that.

31:01

This is a church, obviously, with growing families and filled with vitality, some of which, those that have come to Apologia Church, lives saved from moments away from being murdered, like babies being murdered.

31:18

So the whole idea of just a completely outlandish claim of it being a dying church,

31:25

I can assure you of being there every Sunday, it's loud. There's a lot of noise.

31:31

And the point is all these swipes and jabs distract from the main point, gentlemen.

31:40

They distract from the main point. My point is you throw these things out there, and you don't actually believe them.

31:47

Like you don't actually believe them. And so they work against you as well, and you're making false claims about people you know nothing about.

31:56

You could have asked before you made the claim, but you didn't, and I think it shows a huge lack of wisdom on your part, but let's continue.

32:04

Who made that? That was made, actually, I won't say the funny satirical Madagascene that made that one, but yeah, that one was pretty hardcore.

32:12

So anyway, I was just going to say that my only real problem with this also thus far, okay, is

32:19

I appreciate the engagement, and he's doing us a favor. That's true. Because he's boosting our profile, right? And he's got a lot more subscribers.

32:25

But generally in the YouTube world, it's actually considered punching down for a bigger channel to go after a smaller channel, and he does indeed have almost half a million subscribers.

32:35

And that's kind of actually usually used to be kind of one of the general things that you weren't supposed to do with debunkings you always punch up if you try and do it on a smaller channel with no resources, because we do not get paid for, it's not even our services, because we don't even say our ministry, because he constantly accuses us of apologetics.

32:54

Yet we are very open about the fact, in fact, if you go to our Twitter profile, we're open about the fact that we are not apologists.

33:03

In fact, if you actually look at our profile right here, it says we indeed denounce deception, delight in truth.

33:09

We have fun. We aren't apologists. We are radio hosts who call it how we see it.

33:14

So he's going to reference us as apologists. He's going to accuse us of a lot of things that maybe he's doing, but we are not doing.

33:20

So let me just address that quickly. Just a quick point. I have enough respect for you as Mormons who are trying to offer a defense for Mormonism, and that's why we're responding.

33:32

There are not many Mormons today that have the stones that you guys have. I'll give you that, and I mean that.

33:38

That's not flattery. There's not a lot of Mormons today that are willing to go out front and try to offer a defense for Mormonism in the way that you guys do.

33:46

And so I respect you. I mean, you call it punching down, but I respect you as Mormons who are trying to offer a defense for Mormonism.

33:53

That's the truth. Punching down, showing respect to the limited number of Mormons that actually want to defend

34:01

Mormonism. That's why we're responding to you. And I just want to say this attempt to move away from being apologists,

34:12

Mormon apologists, is honestly, guys, it's silly. Denouncing deception would require arguments.

34:18

It would require reasoned responses. An apologia. An apologia.

34:24

The word apologia, the word for reasoned defense, the word we get apologists from comes from that word that was well -known in the

34:32

Greek world. It had to do with even law court situations where you'd offer a reasoned defense for your case.

34:38

And when you say you're denouncing deception with your channel, you're offering a reasoned defense for your position, and that makes you apologists whether you like it or not.

34:46

And even in this very video, you guys do laugh a lot. You tell jokes. You engage in ad hom and all that stuff.

34:53

All right. All that aside, you still offer defenses for the Mormon position. You're still defending the

34:59

Mormon gospel and the Mormon theological framework. That makes you Mormon apologists whether you like it or not.

35:05

Even if the defense is just a bare assertion like, hey, your theology sucks. Ours is better, like they say in the video.

35:12

Which, yeah, exactly. And so if you just take a quick look through their channel here, if you can look at my page here.

35:20

There you go. Okay. So if you look at some of the videos in terms of we're not apologists. Did Joseph Smith restore

35:26

Christ consciousness? New discoveries of Nauvoo polygamy.

35:33

Joseph Smith's seer stone was consistent with Old Testament antiquities. Debunking Joseph Smith's fake affair with Fanny Alger.

35:43

Debunking anti -Mormon Freemason and seer stone myths. Secrets of the

35:48

Lost, 116 pages revealed. Kindly correcting Trent Horn's comments on LDS Christians.

35:55

Response to Johnny Harris's real story of the Mormon church. We can keep going here.

36:02

The channel is dedicated to providing a defense for Mormonism. You are Mormon apologists.

36:08

Contradiction in terms from the description. You guys, look, I'll grant, and I don't have any problem with the laughing and the fun.

36:15

I think if we all hung out together, I would say over a beer, but that's not going to happen. Maybe no duels, guys.

36:21

We'd probably have a great time and enjoy each other's company. Nothing wrong with... I lose respect for you if you do that. Nothing wrong with laughing.

36:28

We don't have any problem with that at all. But in a situation like this where you're dealing with serious theological issues, you need to bring your game.

36:35

You've got to bring it better. You've got to have more integrity. You've got to decide where you want to stand, what your argument actually is.

36:42

Was it a lie or is it not a lie? Do we actually believe it, not believe it? And you guys just do a really poor job of representing yourselves here because you're completely confused.

36:54

And I know for a fact that there are Mormons who watched what you said that were very confused by what you said because that is exactly what we believe.

37:03

How are you calling this an evangelical lie? So let's go on to some more. And we are going to represent ourselves exactly as what we are.

37:11

We're people who we smell a rat. And we're going to say that we smell a rat and we're going to prove that we smell a rat.

37:17

Don't say that about Burger King's meat. That was not proven. No. That was

37:23

Jack in the Box. They couldn't tell what it was, but it wasn't rat. I think it was ferret. There's a number of things it could have been, all right?

37:31

Okay, so anyway, with that said, please make sure that you smash the Like button on this video. It helps the algorithms. And also make sure if you want to check a little bit more of this out.

37:40

Jeez, we're 12 minutes in and we haven't even touched it. We've only made fun of him. So anyway, here's the video. It's going to start right here.

37:46

And you're going to see what he has to say about those lying Mormons. ...Mormon friends and family,

37:52

Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints, which has undergone quite a facelift in this last generation.

38:03

I'm sorry. I'm sorry. You can't go. We just made fun of his head for 10 minutes.

38:10

And the first thing he says is facelift. We're the church.

38:16

The church is endorsing us as the facelift. He looks like he ordered his face off of Amazon.

38:22

There's just like so plasticky burger. Come on.

38:27

Oh, come on. Stop making fun of him. I think he's a handsome individual. I think he's a very handsome and charismatic individual.

38:33

That's true. He's just abusing his talents in unproductive ways, going after other members of the body of Christ instead of going after who the true enemy is, which

38:42

I believe is wokeism. And if he actually were to stop and think and meditate for a second. But I will say he did attack us, and us responding with jokes as opposed to attacking him is actually,

38:52

I think, the way to go. I challenge everybody who is watching this to go watch the collision episode where I engage with what they actually said.

39:02

I engage with the content. I engage with their arguments. I engage with what they actually said and see if that was me attacking them or if this, what they're engaging in, is actually attacking somebody, ordering their face off of Amazon.

39:16

I wonder what the audience thinks is actually attacking the other person. Here's my point, and I'll just say this briefly.

39:24

I think that this episode showed a great disrespect to the audience who is actually engaging with this because there are

39:34

Mormons who want answers, right? They want coherent answers. And I think this is a great disrespect to your audience because when you behave in this manner and you contradict yourself and you engage in such rank hypocrisy, you're treating your audience as though they're intellectually inept, like too intellectually inept to discover what you're saying is contradictory or it's hypocrisy or abusive.

40:01

You're treating your audience like they're dumb. And I don't ever want to treat my audience like they're dumb, like they're intellectually deficient in some way.

40:10

And when you behave in this manner and you engage in this many contradictory things and when you act with this kind of hypocrisy, you abuse your audience.

40:18

And I think that's a problem. And so when we start this, well, let's let him talk a little more because he's talking more about the facelift.

40:27

Yeah, so I agree, I agree. You always got to be yourself. So anyway, I'm going to rewind and we're going to see exactly what he was saying.

40:33

One more time, here is Jeff Durbin in collision with those lying Mormons.

40:39

This last generation, it's happened many times in their history, but the facelift recently, you know, they've gone from mormon .org

40:47

to the Come Unto Christ. The new website is, of course, the churchofjesuschrist .org

40:54

and they've tried at times to get away from the title Mormon. Made a lot of old school Mormons kind of upset.

41:01

Is this guy mad about marketing? Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Okay, wait, wait, wait. He was like, they've done this a lot in their past.

41:08

Can you believe their generations have done different things in one another? Wait, wait, wait.

41:13

I just want to point out, can you believe that this ploy of this facelift trying to get people to use the actual name of the church?

41:21

Yeah. What? Okay, well, here's the other thing. He's insinuating that we're working in conjunction with the official church as part of some kind of PR maneuver.

41:30

Well, that's debunking number one. I can assure you, Jeff Durbin, we are neither funded, it's ironic, but a lot of the woke -skulled ex -Mormon anti -Mormons accuse us of being funded by the church.

41:39

Yes, our production value is very high and as an independent movie and radio content producer in Hollywood, I would like to think that I'm somewhat talented in this arena and I apply those

41:51

God -given talents towards, yes, defending the kingdom. Doing what to the kingdom?

41:57

Yeah, right. Defending it. You mean like apologetics? Yeah, right. So, yeah, defending the kingdom, i .e.

42:05

offering an apologetic for the kingdom that makes you an apologist. Nobody made the claim that you're working in conjunction with the

42:13

Mormon church officially, the authoritative arm of the church. No one made that claim at all.

42:19

I was making the claim about the facelift that Mormonism has gone through on a number of occasions over the last generation or two and that's something that I think can't be disputed.

42:29

I brought up the fact that the Mormon prophet fairly recently was trying to get away from the word

42:34

Mormon and move it to the classical name for the church and get away from the term

42:39

Mormon and I said it made a lot of old school Mormons mad and it did make them upset.

42:45

But when I'm talking about facelift, what I mean is you're trying to get away from the classical teachings of the

42:50

Mormon church. Such as? Like Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, volume 13, page 95, 1870.

42:57

He says this about his sermons and his teaching. He says, I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men that they may not call

43:04

Scripture. Let me have the privilege of correcting a sermon and it is as good a Scripture as it deserved.

43:10

The people have the oracles of God continuously. So there is

43:15

Brigham Young saying that his sermons are in fact Scripture and to be seen as Scripture.

43:21

And so you're getting the very revelation of God from Brigham Young when he teaches. And here's what

43:26

Brigham Young also says, Journal of Discourses, volume 3, page 266, 1855.

43:32

Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives and continue to do so, I promise that you'll be damned.

43:39

But Mormonism today wants to get away from polygamy being practiced as necessary for exaltation or if you deny polygamy, you'll be damned.

43:46

Brigham Young said he's an authoritative prophet of God. He speaks for God. He's giving people the oracles of God. And what he is giving is as good as what's in this book right here.

43:56

It's pretty explicit. It's very explicit. Now Brigham Young says that if you deny polygamy, you'll be damned. How do you guys feel about that today?

44:02

How do you feel about it today? Because I know that there's Mormons in Utah today who are practicing polygamy because they read

44:10

Joseph Smith. They read Brigham Young. They read the prophets. They see that the prophets are teaching that you will never become a

44:16

God apart from being a polygamist. And if you deny polygamy, you'll be damned. Well, there's a facelift necessary because of course the

44:24

United States government threatens the Mormon church and then God has a revelation. He changes his mind. Now polygamy here is no longer necessary.

44:30

After Brigham Young said that they'd never be entered into the union apart from denying polygamy and they would never do it.

44:39

And then of course what happens is exactly that. They deny polygamy. They're part of the union. Everyone knows the history.

44:44

And Brigham Young also as a prophet said a number of things, highly, highly offensive things.

44:52

Let me just read you this from Brigham Young. Sorry, I just lost the page here. Brigham Young also taught about Joseph Smith that in order to get to God, you had to have the passport of Joseph Smith and the permission of Joseph Smith.

45:08

You'll forgive me, guys. I just lost the page here. Feel free to jump in as I find it here, guys.

45:13

While you're looking for that. Here we go. Okay, go ahead. Brigham Young, there's so much more I could say here and I'll go easy on the racist quotes about black people from Brigham Young as a prophet.

45:26

I'll go easy on that. But Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Volume 7, Page 289, 1869 says,

45:33

No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith.

45:40

From the day that the priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, Jr.

45:47

as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are. How's that going for you guys today?

45:53

As our brothers and sisters in Christ that teach that Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation. Brigham said you need

45:58

Joseph. You need Joseph. You guys want to stand by that? You want to stick by that? Brigham Young said that you need to because he said that what he's giving to you are the oracles of God and they're as good as what's couched in the

46:09

Bible. We can go for days here, guys. Do you want to talk about the Adam God doctrine? Do you want to talk about black people? You want to talk about blood atonement and throwing a javelin through somebody so their own blood will be spilled so their sins will be atoned for?

46:21

Yeah, Brigham Young taught that. You want to stick with that or are you good with the facelift? That's occurred over the last generation.

46:27

You want to stick with the horrifically racist past of your church? The horrifically racist past of your church?

46:33

That only after the civil rights movement in America where the culture shifted did it actually say, okay, now our black brothers and sisters are allowed to hold a priesthood.

46:44

You guys want to talk a lot about that? Because we can talk a lot about that. We can actually listen to your prophet, Gordon Hinckley, being questioned on this issue of our black brothers and sisters and the

46:56

Mormon priesthood. Until 1978, no person of color attained priesthood in your church.

47:04

Why it took so long time to overcome the racism? I don't know.

47:11

I don't know. I can only say that. I don't know.

47:19

Acknowledging that therefore it was racist and hatred and I don't know why it took so long to get over it.

47:27

That's the prophet of the Mormon church. That's the prophet of the Mormon church and he just doesn't know why this stuck around for so long.

47:35

Why did it stick around for so long? Well, he's confused by it. But he goes on to say, and I want you to hear what he says here.

47:42

Sorry about the video, guys. We didn't make this video. I just was finding some old news clips of, and you can do this on your own, guys.

47:48

You don't need me to assist you. Just look up Mormon church and blacks and priesthood, Mormon church and polygamy news reports and you'll see just all kinds of good information.

48:00

But it's here now. We are carrying on a very substantial work in Africa, for instance.

48:09

We're carrying on a very substantial work in Brazil. We're working among these people.

48:15

We're developing them. We've had them among the leadership of the church.

48:25

And they're able. They do a great work and we love them and appreciate them and respect them and are trying to help them.

48:35

And trying to get away from the very racist past of the Mormon church. And so when I talk about facelift, that's what

48:42

I'm talking about. I'm talking about polygamy. I'm talking about the racism. I'm talking about the doctrine of blood atonement.

48:48

I'm talking about things in that vein. That's what I'm talking about. And even, yes, going so far as to try to get away from the name that you are known by, the nickname, the

48:58

Mormon church. Which, again, did upset a lot of Mormons. They rather like the name.

49:04

They're used to it. They're comfortable with it. And it upset a lot of Mormons. And so that's what we're talking about when we talk about the facelift.

49:11

I was just going to say an important point, the point you were making with the website. Because it used to be

49:18

LDS .org, I believe, right? Mormon .org. Wasn't it? Didn't they have LDS as well? They might have. Because I think if you do it, if you type those in now, they both go to churchofjesuschrist .com.

49:28

And they're like, oh, what? Just trying to use the name of the church? It's like, hold on. You're missing part of the name of your church.

49:36

And it's Latter Day Saints. Last Day Saints. Yeah. They have removed that because they're trying to be more

49:44

Christian, to be more just another denomination of Protestants. So that was the point you were trying to make.

49:50

They completely missed that, what you were saying. So I just wanted to make sure I pointed that out. I think there's a good opportunity to say there's a distinction between also the presiding, governing leadership of the church doing these things and trying to move people into this association of the

50:06

Mormon church with every other denomination of Christianity. And I would say that's probably where the comparison is here because they keep saying, why would you come after your brothers in Christ?

50:17

Yeah. They're a bigger fish to fry there. They wouldn't have said that 10 years ago. Yeah. Right?

50:23

So while we may not believe that you all are a syndicate together, a coalition working in tandem, there is still a general desire for you to educate the masses that Mormonism is just another

50:38

Christian denomination. Well, I mean, even like, Jeff, you can attest to this. Even the Easter pageant, which you're going on almost 30 years of that.

50:46

Mm -hmm. What's it be? It'll be 30 years in three years.

50:52

Yeah. Three years. Right? 96 was when I first went. Oh, so even, yeah. Like, I've been going for about 15 years, about half of that.

51:01

And there's been some significant shifts even in that over the years. Originally, when you were going, it was just like straight

51:07

Mormon doctrine, and then it switched to basically a King James version of the life of Christ with little

51:15

Mormon things splattered in here that you wouldn't even catch if you weren't paying attention.

51:20

And the new one they did, even our friend was like, wow, this is totally different.

51:26

It's basically like a Disney musical of the life of Jesus. It's completely different, and there's hardly any eye -catching

51:34

Mormon doctrine at all in it, and that's what we're talking about. We've witnessed all this. Pastor James also says, before I was there, when they first started the

51:41

Easter pageant, it was like the Mormon Jesus foolproof. Mm -hmm. And it was the

51:48

Mormon story foolproof, and so people would show up to the Easter pageant, they would start getting through what was being done, then they left.

51:55

They left. So the Mormon church changed the Easter pageant even after that because they tried to give the foolproof version of Mormonism.

52:02

That's the issue in here with this, is the effort to make Mormonism more palatable to the average citizen of the nation because things like polygamy still don't go over quite well, even in a culture as evil as ours.

52:18

Look, guys, go watch the documentary, and I think there's actually a docu -series called

52:25

Under the Banner of Heaven. Now, please forgive me, I haven't actually watched the whole series, so I don't know if there's some inappropriate parts in it.

52:31

I'm not sure if you guys have seen it or remember it, so forgive me. But when I talk about the facelift, let's talk about it in light of something like Under the

52:39

Banner of Heaven. Under the Banner of Heaven, where you've got Mormons that get connected to original source teaching material from Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and they realize the

52:49

Mormonism we're practicing here in Salt Lake ain't what Joseph gave us. Look, there's doctrines of blood atonement and polygamy here, and that's what they taught explicitly, and so we're trying to be faithful to that.

53:01

So even this new series of Under the

53:07

Banner of Heaven that sort of illustrates this sort of a problem is what I'm pointing to, is the facelift of Mormonism, trying to get away from the racism, trying to get away from the polygamy, trying to get away from all of that.

53:19

That's the facelift. And so now, moving into the next part, guys. Remember, if you would, as we go through this, don't lose your place in this, please, if you would.

53:29

Remember that the title of their video, still on Ward Radio's page, that I played, the 60 -second video, says, debunking the evangelical lie that Mormons get their own planet.

53:44

So again, according to them, title of the video, it's an evangelical lie that Mormons get their own planet.

53:51

And then in the video, the comment was made, they think, like, we really believe this. Right? Okay.

53:57

So now we are about 46 minutes into the

54:02

Burger King episode. And this is said, in terms of excuse -making now.

54:08

Let's keep going, let's let them finish. And grow in ability and power and worthiness to govern such a world with all its people.

54:18

We educate ourselves in the secular field and in the spiritual field so that we may one day create worlds, people, and govern them.

54:31

There seems to be plenty of space out there. He's not found one quote so far that matches anything we were responding to, anything

54:40

Mike Winger was saying. It heralds to it, because he does say, there seems to be plenty of space out there in the universe, and the

54:47

Lord has proved that he knows how to do it. And he did say, you will become gods, and he says, you will be able to rule over kingdoms and planets.

54:54

He's trying to take, to its most beautiful extent, the concept of eternal progression.

55:01

Yep. Oh, wait. So you do believe that. So it's beautiful because you believe it also.

55:07

But it's beautiful now. It goes from being an evangelical lie to, well, he's taking the beautiful concept of exaltation.

55:16

We just don't like how he's saying it. Well, how I was saying it, I was saying it with the words of your own prophets.

55:22

I was quoting your prophets. When you say it's an evangelical lie that Mormons get their own planets, I'm going to give you original source material.

55:30

I'm going to give you your own prophets speaking for themselves in context, talking about planets, ruling over these planets, kingdoms, peopling those earths yourselves.

55:41

That's what Spencer Kimball taught. That's what Joseph Fielding Smith taught. That's what Bruce R. McConkie taught. That's what

55:46

Brigham Young taught. We can keep going. That's what your church teaches. And so when you say, do you think like if we thought we had eternal sex, we'd be a little less frumpy people?

55:54

But you do believe in that same story that you have for this earth, that Elohim with his goddess wives peopled us as spirit offspring in the pre -existence and then filled this earth with us.

56:09

You believe that. And you believe that through exaltation, you'll go through the same thing. You don't believe that every Mormon is going to get that.

56:15

You don't believe that every Mormon is going to that celestial kingdom. We know that. We grant that. But that is the plan of exaltation.

56:23

No lies detected. And now you guys are really struggling here to backpedal, make excuses for what you were trying to do in mocking

56:34

Pastor Mike Winger for bringing up the fact that this is the Mormon story of exaltation.

56:40

You guys do believe it. It's not an evangelical lie. And now here come the excuses.

56:45

Again, we weren't saying we do not believe in eternal progression. We were calling out

56:52

Mike Winger for claiming to be an expert on Mormonism and then recycling anti -Mormon tropes about us.

57:00

One of those tropes being that our missionaries go around door to door pitching the idea that if you believe in our version of the sky dad, you'll ultimately end up getting your own planet that you will have to rushingly populate with some kind of form of eternal sex with whatever polygamous concubines you have.

57:16

Nope. That's actually not what you did. That's not what you did. You can say the word trope all you want referring to metaphor, symbol, or whatever trope all you want.

57:27

You said it was an evangelical lie that Mormons get their own planet. It is still up today on your channel.

57:35

Anyone can go see it right now. Ward Radio, go check them out. It's not far down in the scrolling.

57:41

You'll see the video I'm referring to debunking the evangelical lie that Mormons get their own planet. Watch the video.

57:47

60 seconds long. Won't take you long. What do you say? They think like we really believe this. Like we talk about it all the time.

57:53

Do you really think if we believe this we would be less frumpy people? But you're admitting we do believe it.

58:01

It's called exaltation. It is part of our story. You guys just can't decide where you want to land.

58:08

It may not be what you meant, but it's what you said. What did you say? That's the issue here.

58:14

It seems to be just a lot of just a cunning use of language to try to obfuscate what they really believe.

58:21

I was going to say they try to make a little switcheroo here. It may be possible that that's what Wenger was trying to say that they go around door to door saying that we're not saying that.

58:30

They switch it to that's the lie. We're not trying to say that at all because we don't believe that that's what you do.

58:38

As a matter of fact, going back to the facelift comment, we've talked to people who were actually Christians who got sucked up into the

58:45

Mormon church for three years before they heard this doctrine. Then they were like,

58:50

I was in here for three years and never heard this. That's the kind of stuff we're talking about. Just for the record, we're not saying that you guys do that.

58:58

We're saying you believe it. That's the point. You believe the doctrine. You believe it. You teach it.

59:03

You think it's beautiful. You believe it. You teach it. You think it's beautiful. Whether or not more missionaries come to your door to sell the program in that way is irrelevant.

59:14

What you were saying is that it's an evangelical lie that Mormons get their own planet.

59:19

You guys really think we talk about this? We really do this? Well, you know who does talk about it? Joseph Fielding Smith. Do you know who does talk about it?

59:25

Bruce R. McConkie, Apostle of the Mormon Church. You know who does talk about it? Spencer Kimball. Do you know who does talk about it? Brigham Young.

59:32

You see, what's amazing here is that who does talk about it is in a class higher than your missionaries.

59:37

And that is your prophets and apostles. Teach it. Believe it. That is the goal of exaltation.

59:43

You think it's beautiful and actually not a lie. Isn't that the point? You think it's beautiful and actually not a lie.

59:51

That's the point. One other thing too. If you're going to respond to videos like you have here, don't just pick and choose little snippets without the full context because you guys just complained that Jeff wasn't using quotes or something.

01:00:06

And if you would have actually continued the clip and listened, he gave plenty. You guys just missed out on it because you were not being honest about what he said.

01:00:15

So next point, and this is, again, you guys can go watch the video for yourselves.

01:00:20

Highly encourage you to do so. Listen to both sides. Listen to what's being said. But at about 21 minutes into the

01:00:26

Burger King episode, Luke, thank you, Luke. Not me. Yeah, thank you,

01:00:31

Luke, for having enough integrity to be honest about the problem. In the video, they can't decide what they want to say.

01:00:39

Oh, we were joking to, oh, no, we do believe it. It's actually beautiful. You know, was it a lie?

01:00:46

You just can't get a fix on where they're really at. Say what you mean. Yeah, but in 21 minutes of the

01:00:51

Burger King episode, this is what's said, and I want to say a big thank you to Luke for your integrity. The thing is, like, this is not an indictment of all evangelicals.

01:01:02

Apologia themselves are masterminds at manipulation. They consistently manipulate everyone they engage with.

01:01:11

And what he did here was he took our YouTube short and our comedic reaction to a claim someone else made without showing the exhaustive claim that that person had made in that video.

01:01:23

Just the infinite babies portion. Yes, yes. And then our humorous reaction to that ridiculous point, he's now reacting to saying that we're lying about original doctrine without actually presenting the original doctrine so far.

01:01:39

You didn't watch the video, did you, Kwaku? Oops. I'll just say that. Shame on you, Kwaku.

01:01:44

Oops. If you had watched the video before you did this episode, you wouldn't be making that claim because you would know throughout the whole video,

01:01:51

I even had to, I think I even apologized in the video. It's going to be a quote heavy episode because it was just quote after quote after quote after quote, demonstrating exactly what

01:02:02

Mike Winger said that you guys mocked and said wasn't true. And now in this episode, you're saying it actually is beautiful.

01:02:09

It's a beautiful part of our story, exaltation. Again, so I can't quite decide where are you guys landing on this?

01:02:14

Like either it's beautiful and we do believe it or we were laughing about it. Which is it? The collision episode, go watch it yourself.

01:02:21

You should have watched it before you did this, Kwaku. That was very irresponsible of you once again to not know actually what you're engaging with.

01:02:27

You have a long history of this. If you watch the video, you'll see it's just filled with quotations from your prophets and your apostles demonstrating exactly what

01:02:36

Mike Winger said, which was not an evangelical lie. It was from the mouths of your own prophets.

01:02:42

And without actually, he could have gone to their actual video. Yeah. And as opposed to the short of it and react to that, but he didn't.

01:02:48

But Kwaku, that is what someone who is interested in like figuring out what's true would do. I don't think this guy is. And I get it.

01:02:54

I get it because the line is out the door of orders and they only have so, they can only make so many French fries at Burger King.

01:03:00

But like, you know what I'm saying? You gotta give them the full meal. All right. This is why McDonald's beating you.

01:03:06

Yeah. I hear you. I hear you. That was a good reference. Solid Burger King reference. Yeah. Pardon is exactly right.

01:03:12

Pauline's mom Bailey. Because, and I want to not apologize, but I want to say that even when we put that out, when we put that short out, people at the

01:03:22

Cougar Chronicle messaged me and said, what exactly are you saying here? I don't get it. Are you saying you're debunking the fact that we think we become gods?

01:03:30

And I was like, no, we didn't speak as well as we could have because we were in a comedic, excitable moment.

01:03:36

Well, Luke, thank you for the integrity. Gotta respect that. I respect you. I respect you for being honest about what people were coming to you with.

01:03:43

Like, wait a minute. We're Mormon. We do believe that. What are you saying? But the problem is, is not that just, you know, you were caught up in a comedic moment and all the rest, is that you were actually calling it in the title of the video, an evangelical lie that Mormons get their own planet.

01:03:58

And listen, Luke, Kwaku, guys, there's no way out of this. I was just thinking that. There's no way out of this.

01:04:05

You did it. There's no way out of it. You can't clean it up now without like demonstrating deception.

01:04:12

The video is still up. It says debunking the evangelical lie that Mormons get their own planets. You believe it. You think it's beautiful.

01:04:18

You call it exaltation. What Mike Winger said about what you believe about the future and exaltation and getting your own planet and populating with your own spirit children, you guys actually believe.

01:04:28

The video says debunking the evangelical lie that Mormons get their own planets. It's there. You're stuck with it. You guys should just have the integrity to say, yeah, we did that wrong.

01:04:37

We got it completely wrong. Because if anybody can see with their own eyes, and they can watch the full clip, I mean, maybe we'll get time to do it here.

01:04:43

I'll watch the full clip with you guys to show you that you guys were walking back the idea that you guys get your own planets and you'll populate it with your own spirit children.

01:04:55

When we put that out there, and he had just said we gather together a ton of babies, have lots of sex, make a lot of babies until it's time to move out into a new planet that we're given.

01:05:05

And that's the thing that we're saying. That's not laid out that way anywhere. It's just put in that way to make it sound as crazy as possible.

01:05:13

It's kind of like atheists. But do you believe it? Yeah. Do you believe that in the next pre -existence that you'll be a part of, like the

01:05:22

God of this earth, do you believe that you're going to have goddess wives, that you'll have wives or a wife that you will populate that earth with, that you will people that earth like your prophets have said?

01:05:34

Do you actually believe it? The answer is yes. You believe it.

01:05:39

You guys admitted in the episode. You think it's beautiful. So you don't just believe it. You think it's beautiful.

01:05:45

Mike said it. You said it was an evangelical lie. You guys can't decide where you want to stand.

01:05:53

And I think that's why your audience can see, anybody can see, that you guys are being deceptive and that now you've been caught flat -footed.

01:06:02

You were caught. You were caught being deceptive. You were caught lying about what your religion teaches. Proof positive is the fact that Luke, you just admitted you had people contact you to say, what exactly are you saying here?

01:06:15

What's going on here, guys? Because the truth is your church teaches that and that comes down to my main point at the beginning.

01:06:22

This is an attempt at a facelift to walk back comments of your apostles and prophets, to distance yourselves from historic teachings of Mormonism, to try to put a spin on Mormon doctrine and theology that is historically not

01:06:39

Christian. It is anti -Christian. And you guys are just trying to make Mormonism look mainstream Christianity.

01:06:45

And you'll never be able to do it, gentlemen. You'll never be able to do it because you have a different God. You have a different gospel.

01:06:50

You have a different authority than Scripture. You have an ultimate authority above Scripture. That's your position.

01:06:56

And so you'll never be mainstream Christianity. You'll never be Orthodox Christianity because from the inception, Joseph Smith was a false prophet of God who gave people a different version of God, had a different gospel, had many false prophecies.

01:07:07

The only way to recover from this is redemption, is to turn away from the false prophet,

01:07:12

Joseph Smith and Brigham Young and Orson Pratt and Bruce R. McConkie, the apostles. Turn away from them and their doctrine to the true and living

01:07:20

Christ and experience a saving relationship with the true Christ through His saving gospel.

01:07:28

That's the only way out. Yeah. It doesn't matter how much you want to say that the Bible teaches this.

01:07:34

Like, they point to Romans 8 in the video saying, see, this is the plan of exaltation. You know, we're partakers of God's nature.

01:07:42

And, you know, that's what Paul was referring to. We can become gods and apparently have their own planets and populate them with it.

01:07:51

But I think as anyone that sees that examines Mormon doctrine and the teaching of Scripture is that the two end results, like we might be using the same words, we want to be like God, but we certainly don't define those things in the same way.

01:08:07

They are very opposed, the concepts are. Here we go. Calling God sky daddy. Yes. 100%.

01:08:14

And then the evangelical says, what are you talking about? Come on, like, shut up. And they say, no, look at the

01:08:20

Scriptures. Heavenly Father, he's up in the sky with Stephen. So he's in the sky, right? Okay.

01:08:25

And here's the other parts that says he's your father. So he is your sky daddy, you idiot. You're totally right.

01:08:30

This is the level. And the thing is, Jeff, I'm trying. But see, you're engaging in a category error here,

01:08:37

Luke, and it should be clear to you, obvious to you, is that when the atheist wants to manipulate language and say you believe you have a father in heaven, so that's a sky daddy,

01:08:47

I'm not denying that I believe my father's in heaven. I'm not denying it.

01:08:53

I'm saying you're using language that's abusive to express that point of our father in heaven, but I'm not going to deny that I believe

01:09:00

I have a heavenly father, a father in heaven. What you guys were doing was something very different. You were saying it's an evangelical lie, like we talk about this all the time.

01:09:09

They think like we really believe this. I mean, don't you think we'd be a less frumpy people if we believed we were going to have sex, you know, eternal sex?

01:09:16

And it's like, but wait a second, but you actually do believe in sex?

01:09:22

Eternal sex. Yeah, exactly. It's going to be going on forever through exaltation. We're going to be going through the same exaltation that the gods before us did.

01:09:30

That's exactly what you believe. You believe you're going to people these worlds with your own offspring, that you're going to get your own planet through exaltation.

01:09:36

You guys actually do believe it, and that's what's being stated. And so it's a category error,

01:09:42

Luke. And what you're trying to bring up as an excuse for what you guys were doing is just a category error.

01:09:48

It doesn't make sense. And your audience, gentlemen, your audience can see it. They're not as intellectually inept as you are playing them to be.

01:09:58

And so let's move on. Help you be better at this because if you're talking to a

01:10:03

Mormon and you're trying to, you know, convince them that they're wrong, you don't need to use these kind of warped terms that make everything sound so weird.

01:10:13

Just use what we use. Explain it the way we explain it. It's not really going to hurt your position, though. Great. Let's try it.

01:10:19

Exaltation. Through exaltation, we will become like God, our

01:10:24

Heavenly Father. He was once a man like us and has a body as tangible as man's.

01:10:30

And he went through the process of exaltation through obedience to his God and Father.

01:10:36

And through exaltation, he with his goddess wives produced us sexually in the pre -existence and peopled this earth.

01:10:44

And through exaltation and obedience, we can progress in exaltation to go to the celestial kingdom to progress like he did to become gods and goddesses of our own planets, to have spirit children through celestial sex and to produce these children and get them to a planet like we did here.

01:11:04

Isn't that the story? And isn't that essentially what Mike Winger was saying to you? And is that an evangelical lie?

01:11:10

Or is it what you actually believe? ...much to explain it the way that we do. And I think we were a little imprecise in that video and it can come off sounding like we're saying we don't believe in the

01:11:21

God stuff. It's comedy. Like, he keeps accusing us of the facelift of apologetics.

01:11:27

We're a comedy show. I won't speak for everybody then. Yeah. I won't speak for everybody then.

01:11:33

I felt like I was imprecise in that. Okay, cool. Well, remember on Eternal... Thank you for the integrity.

01:11:39

Thank you. Thank you for the integrity. I like Luke. I do. I do like him. He seems like, of the gentlemen that are on this show, he seems like the one who's most desirous of consistency and integrity.

01:11:51

So, I want to say, Luke, I appreciate you greatly for having the integrity to say that. And just for the record, we do want to have you on,

01:11:58

Luke. Yeah, we do. We do want to get you on. I know that comes at the end of the show. We did try. Yeah, we just couldn't get a total line right.

01:12:04

Our schedules over the last two months, please forgive us. I honestly mean that. Our schedules over the last two months have been very intense and difficult.

01:12:10

And I know that we've had... We've crossed each other on one day you could come, but we couldn't do it. Another day we wanted to do it, you couldn't come.

01:12:16

And so, we do want to make that happen. But we do appreciate, Luke, your integrity here amongst the group to say that you were imprecise.

01:12:25

And if you admit to that, then you're admitting to the necessity for us to correct it, which we did in collision.

01:12:36

We corrected it. I would argue that you were not being imprecise. You guys were trying to backpedal.

01:12:45

You were trying to move yourself away from historic Mormon teaching. It wasn't imprecision. It was outright denial because the title of the video, ready, again,

01:12:54

Debunking the Evangelical Lie that Mormons Get Their Own Planet. It's still there. You're stuck with it.

01:13:01

If you change it and say, look, we got this wrong, we did it wrong, I'll actually honor and respect that.

01:13:07

But you're going to have to come out with the kind of integrity you just exhibited here and make that change because the video is still up.

01:13:15

Anybody can go see it. It's called An Evangelical Lie that Mormons Get Their Own Planet. And you guys are admitting in this episode that you do believe in that story of exaltation.

01:13:24

You do believe it. Final words, boys? I don't think so. Yeah, there's so much there.

01:13:31

So much we could keep going with and saying. Let's go to the Super Chats, everybody. By the way, we are heading over just after this to the

01:13:38

After Show live at ApologiaStudios .com. Join us over there and you guys will get more in this conversation.

01:13:45

We're excited to have this conversation over there at ApologiaStudios .com. Sign up for all access. Super Chats. Andy P.

01:13:51

Happy September. Thank you, Andy. Andrea Timmers, thank you so much for the Super Chat. Liberty Lisa says, they deceived me for three long years before I found out about becoming a god.

01:14:02

Thank God my mom had dropped me off at the Baptist Church when I was a child and knew something was wrong and began to break away.

01:14:08

Right on time. I didn't know that comment was in there when I met him. Wow. There you go. Kay Hamilton, thank you so much.

01:14:14

A few weeks ago, I had a couple Mormons come to my door. If I hadn't been watching you guys and Mike Winger, I wouldn't have known the difference in language and what they really believe.

01:14:23

By the way, before we head off, guys, before we head off, some of you guys have been noticing recently in the episodes,

01:14:30

I've been wearing an Ion Layer patch and you'll see that today, it's not on my arm, but let me just say,

01:14:36

I am still wearing it. It's on my bottom. Because I was told by Ben Greenfield, a

01:14:44

Christian who is just all into biohacking and all this amazing stuff, he's got some good stuff, that the best place to put the

01:14:50

NAD patch is the NAD patch is on your backside, wherever you have fat, because it'll distribute the

01:14:57

NAD or the N -A -D through the fat. It'll get through your system better. Some of you guys are like, what's NAD and N -A -D?

01:15:03

We're lost right now. I know. Go to IonLayer .com, guys. IonLayer .com.

01:15:09

Solid Christian dudes and they are just finding a way to get this amazing chemical that your body naturally produces.

01:15:15

It's a God -given chemical. They call it the Fountain of Youth. Into your system. Feed your cells and your whole system.

01:15:21

It's blessed my life tremendously. And my wife, I mentioned, she had the long COVID stuff, terrible stuff with smells for years.

01:15:29

She started doing the N -A -D treatments and two or three days in, she got two of her favorite smells and tastes back.

01:15:36

So take that for what it is. That's what happened with her. We have a close friend of ours that had to have a hip replacement.

01:15:43

He did NAD and was back on his feet in like no time. It was like supernatural what happened.

01:15:49

So IonLayer .com, I -O -N -Layer .com. When you go there, if you want to get hooked up with it, they're giving everybody who's involved in this ministry with us, they're giving you guys a special.

01:16:02

And that is you put APOLOGIA in all caps in the coupon code, you get $100 off. I'm grateful for those guys.

01:16:09

I love what they're doing to help bless people's lives and increase people's longevity and their health.

01:16:15

And go look up NAD benefits and you'll see what I'm talking about. So IonLayer .com,

01:16:21

we love those guys. We're thankful for all of you guys. Please pray for us in Germany as we bring the gospel into conflict with it in Germany.

01:16:30

I'm trying to avoid saying it as many times as I can so we don't get demonetized or taken away.

01:16:36

That's Luke the Bear. Peace out. I'm Jeff, they call me the Ninja. That is Zach. See ya. And we'll catch you on the other side at the after show.