Covenant Theology with Patrick Abendroth

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Welcome to The Rap Report with your host, Andrew Rapoport, where we provide biblical interpretation and application.

This is a ministry of Striving for Eternity and the Christian Podcast Community. For more content or to request a speaker for your church, go to strivingforeternity .org.

Welcome to another edition of The Rap Report. I'm your host, Andrew Rapoport, President and Executive Director of Striving for Eternity Ministries and the

Christian Podcast Community, of which this podcast is a proud member. So today's topic is going to be covenant theology.

Wait, Andrew, Andrew, I thought you were a dispensationalist, and you're going to talk covenant.

It's going to be a bunch of straw man arguments that you're going to make against covenant theology, right? No, actually, it won't be.

I actually have a guest that has written a book called— well, it's called

Covenant Theology, and therefore that's kind of what it's about. So we're going to talk with Patrick Abendroth today on his book,

Covenant Theology, which immediately gets some people to say, wait a minute, you as a dispensationalist are going to give people that would disagree with you a platform to talk about things you disagree with?

Yeah, yeah, exactly. I am. Because that's what we like to do here on The Wrap Report, is not just promote our own views, because guess what?

I'm wrong somewhere. So is my guest, by the way. We don't know where that we're wrong, and when we get to heaven, we will agree.

In fact, I can make this claim right now. My guest and I and R .C. Sproul will agree 100 % in about 100 years from now.

So that is, that's just, I know that for sure. So let me welcome to The Wrap Report, Patrick Abendroth.

Welcome. So good to be on with you, Andrew, and looking forward to seeing R .C.

Sproul the Baptist one day, right? Amen. He's a Baptist now. It's not one day.

He understands the arguments better than we do. Exactly. He could come back and tell us the better views of baptism.

Andrew, the last time we saw each other, we were at the Shrine of the Book in Jerusalem.

And that's the first time I think that you and I have met. We had to go halfway around the world to meet. It's true.

The Shrine of the Book just sounds kind of bad, but it's actually a cool place, right? It was. Yeah. And it was funny because every day, so for my audience, many know that I went to Israel.

What they did not know, what I didn't share, was that you were there with your brother, Mike. Someone else was there as well,

Andy Woodward. He was the connection to let me know that you guys were there.

Andy was a pastor in New York City. He had mentioned, hey, here's our schedule.

He and I were going back and forth sharing our schedule to see, is there a place we're going to overlap?

And there were a couple of places we overlapped, and I kept looking for you guys. Well, he warned us.

He said, there's this really weird pastor, Andrew guy, and try to avoid him at all costs.

And then lo and behold, we ran into you and found out you were not so weird. Oh, I'm kidding.

He didn't say any of that stuff. He wanted to help me. So Andy's a great guy. Yeah, no, what ended up happening was that was one place.

I didn't think with the schedule, I didn't think there were any more overlaps. So I was walking with the group and all of a sudden

Andy's just like, hey, Andrew. And Andy and I used to do open air evangelism in New York City.

He did a church plant there in New York City. So we would evangelize and promote his church so that anyone that got saved, we'd send a number of people over to the church.

And so we got to know each other. So he ran into me. And so he brings me over where Mike is, and I got to meet you for the first time, which is you and I were joking.

And just a little bit for my audience. This was,

I literally have our very first, at least private conversation. I couldn't put our first one.

So I know your brother, Mike, I've known him for a very long time. I've spoken at events with him, other than the fact that he doesn't know how to dress.

And if anyone has seen him, you immediately know, but he loves these loud shirts.

And so I always bust on him every time I'm in a store that I see a shirt, I'm like, hey, Mike, here, here, this one's for you.

You put something up about your brother, Mike, and I, you know, did a jab at him and you were pretty,

I don't want to say harsh, but it was pretty strong with me having been that you and I had never met or ever talked.

So I realized quickly, let me take this private. And so I said, I said, so this was, this was literally, this was actually,

I could tell you, May 12th of 2022 is the first time I said, I hope, I hope you did not take any offense at my joke about your brother.

He and I are friends. And I think he would know that I respect him very much dot, dot, dot.

But I do, I do not miss an opportunity to make fun of him a bit from time to time. Please forgive me.

If I came across, if it came across differently, since you did not know that we know each other and your response, which

I actually read to your brother, I don't know if I told you this, but I told your brother that you had said this. You said,

Hey, Andrew, thank you for being kind. And now I'm now I'm assuming I assume the best.

Mike is my closest friend and I love him dearly. And we'll assume that's from you blessing. So, so it was really funny that I told

Mike, Hey, I spoke to your brother online on Twitter. I think we had a misunderstanding about you.

And he says, Oh, he probably had nothing good to say about me. So I read what you actually said. He's like, you sure my brother said that.

That's funny. You know, Mike's nine years older than I am. And so when I was a little kid, you know, the bullies in the neighborhood or whatever, you know, he, he'd go visit them.

He'd go knock on their door. So maybe I'm just trying to make up for it. You know, I've got my brother's back, but he, he, you know,

I said to him, I said, Hey, look, I'm, I'm interviewing your brother tomorrow. Can you give me any, any pointers? And he said, well, he's, he's younger than me.

He's faster than me. He's better looking than me, but I make it all up and experience. Oh, that's funny.

Yeah. He is definitely my older, wiser brother. So, yeah. But you, you are faster as, as we discovered because the three of us went up Masada.

So anyone that's been to Israel and has tried to, has, has done that track. I encourage you if, if you're up for it is to take the snake path which is the way they would have gone.

They wouldn't have taken a trolley ride to Masada. They would have gone up snake path. I encourage you to do that.

But one of the things is to see how fast you can make it up. And I just, with my, you know, with my heart,

I, I'm not able to run something like that, like I used to. And so I walked at a

I want to say it was 25 to 30 minutes that I made it up there.

Well done Andrew, well done. But you, you, I heard had a really nice time. Was it sub 20?

I think it might've, I don't remember if it was eight minutes or what it was, but we were, yeah,

I have a teenage son and he's a runner. And so he just dropped me so hard at the beginning and the group was cheering, you know, you old man, look at you.

And so, but you know, I did make it up like three minutes faster than him because experience wins out sometimes, right?

It does. It does. You know, I, I, I had a race with my son. My son turned 18.

We did a, we did a 5k race. And what happened was I, because I had,

I had this issue with my heart. I was concerned about not having going over my max heart rate. Well, I, I, I was convinced

I saw him sitting down on a bench because he took off real fast, but my watch told me

I went over my max heart rate. So I was fiddling with it. He, he ended up telling me, yes, he saw me, realized

I was catching up to him and just took off. And I'm like, you know, I just shouldn't, I should have ignored the watch and just gone for it.

Might be in glory right now. If you would have done that though. Yeah. But, but at least I would have beat him.

Pride is a terrible thing, but something in us, right? That's right. Yeah.

I knew eventually he'd beat me, but he's never wanted to do another one. I've told him, see the issue is it's only 5k, you know, let's do a half marathon.

And then, you know, that's, that's the roots when you get older, it's the endurance. So, so let's, let's get to, first off, let me ask you to introduce yourself to my audience because, you know,

I, I mean, I know a bit about you, but, I don't know how much my audience follows your podcast or maybe even already has a copy of your book.

That might be good. But, introduce folks to yourself, the church that you've been pastoring in Omaha.

And why, why Omaha? Oh, because we were born, I was born and raised in Omaha. So, didn't grow up in a

Christian home. Just strangely enough, got converted. My brother Mike got converted about the same time after our father died and our, you know, life was just turned upside down.

And the Lord used that tragedy to draw us to himself. So that was back in the late eighties.

And so I've been pastoring a church really close to where I, where I grew up, which is strange. In fact, we outgrew one of our buildings and we met at my high school for a while.

And there I was preaching, you know, in the auditorium where I emceed the homecoming in 1987.

So the Lord has, has a sense of humor in one sense. But anyway, I've been in Omaha Bible church since 1998.

So coming, coming up on 25 years, I love the saints there. Love the church.

It's been a wonderful pastorate, great leaders. It's just been great. So there's that part.

I host a podcast called the Pactum. And so that's got a lot of traction. Been doing that for the last couple of years.

And now the book, the book is out and called Covenant Theology. Excited to see what it's doing.

It's been out for about a month now, helping a lot of people. It's already sold more copies than I thought it would in a year,

Andrew. So super encouraged by that. Yeah. That's always an amazing thing as an author. I have my book,

What Do They Believe? And I put it out as a Bible study on the internet. Cause I'm like, who's going to buy a book from me?

Like I figured when, when we actually, when someone encouraged me to put it in his book,

I'm like, my, my guess was 300 copies. That's what

I anticipated I would sell. And, you know, we did a first printing of,

I think it was like a thousand, a second printing of 1500 and then like a printing of like 3000.

It was like, okay, maybe I've done a little bit more now it's on Amazon. So I don't, I don't even know how many it sells now.

Super cool. So, yeah. So the church for folks, if they, if they're out in Omaha is Omaha Bible church and the website is

Omaha Bible church .org and then your, your podcast and more where people can find about you is, is the, the pactum .org

and that's let me spell that out. I'll put in the show notes as well so that people can do it, but some people are driving and they they're not going to remember the show notes, but it's just the

P A C T U M .org.

So. You just think pact and then go, um, what's that about? Pactum.

There you go. There you go. Always good to have a way to, for people to remember it.

So before we get into the book, you know, let's, let's talk a little bit about you and stuff.

I, I, I know that, or at least I've heard that you like to study theology.

In fact, I heard that you have weekly breakfasts to discuss theology that are very helpful for folks.

It's true. I don't know where you heard this, but we do a theology for breakfast. It's a men's group basically on a Tuesday morning.

And we've been doing it now since I think 2005, 2006. And I hate getting up early.

I'm not a morning person. Uh, you know, my day off is Monday. So now I have to work on Mondays to prep for theology for breakfast on Tuesdays, but you know, 50 men show up and wanting to study deep profound things.

And, uh, it's wonderful. I leave every single time thinking that was awesome. It was worth it. I just don't want to wake up early anymore.

So it's a great time kind of a Q and a format. And so I like to tell guys, you know, it's a safe place.

You can, you can, you can pose questions. You can say how to, you know, what about this? And, uh,

I like to hear what they're thinking. So it's, it's wonderful. So the women want to do it too. And it's not, you know, men specific, but I want something for the men, uh, the women have their

Bible studies. So this is for the men, but it's not male specific. And that's kind of where the pactum podcast came in because I thought let's do a similar kind of thing for everybody.

And so it's the fruit of the really the men's group. So I'm definitely into that.

And I love being at a church where people are hungry and they want to learn as well. Yeah. And, and I know people that don't attend your church have attended, because I know someone that I know,

Virgil Walker, when he was in Omaha used to come, you know, sometimes even though he attended a different church, he was pastoring at a different church, but he would show up early.

I think that was all secretive, but now that he's no longer in Omaha, it's okay. But yeah, Virgil, literally

Virgil used to live down the street from my house and we didn't know each other. And he started showing up at theology for breakfast and he's on staff at a church.

I'm not sure if it was, if it was cool or not for him to be coming to my class. We struck up a great relationship and then he started bringing other men with him.

And so I didn't realize that, that you knew about that. Yeah. He's a, he's a great guy.

He's a great guy. Contraband. Oh yeah. Well, I, I, I don't know if I could reveal everything

I was told about you in prep for this, but you know, I will, maybe we'll have to see if we drop other secret now.

So let's, let's talk about your book. You know, obviously you and I would not be in the same kind of theological theological camp in this way, but you know, one of the things is and some people were asking me because they knew

I was reading your book and prep for the, for the, for this. And they asked my thoughts and I said,

I, you know, I think your book is very well written. I think that it is, it is written and you can correct me if you think

I'm wrong, but I think it's more written toward someone that's in my camp, trying to explain what your position is and give a lot of, it does give some of the arguments that people in my camp would make against those in your camp.

And I think that was, it was very well written, but here's the thing I will say, if there's, you know, for any dispensationalists that want to read it,

I think that it gives a good argument without being derogatory toward people in a dispensational camp.

I appreciate you saying that, Andrew. I essentially wrote it as a dispensationalist because that's my training.

That's my background. And I'm trying to argue, and I am arguing that we're talking about soteriology.

We're talking about the doctrine of salvation, first and foremost, we're not talking about a millennial view or whether or not there's a future for national

Israel. We're talking about matters that relate to justification. And so I am trying to win people like you over and others.

And even if we, I don't win you over, it's hopefully at least helps you understand where I'm coming from, better arguments, we can have better discussion.

And I want to point out things like, you know, Lewis Barry Chafer believed in the covenant of redemption. And last time I checked, he was a dispensationalist.

So it's been done before. In other words, I was just looking at Larkin's charts, literally,

Tuesday of this past week. And, you know, he talks about basically a covenant of works.

And last time I checked, he was pretty dispensational as well. So not trying to argue from the text of scripture, but also pointing out that there have been dispensationalists who've held these positions.

Yeah. And this is one of the things I just was on a podcast and it will have aired week before this one.

Not it hasn't aired yet from the recording that we're doing, but where I was on another show and we're talking dispensationalist, he was, so it's a flip.

He was a covenant theologian writing a book on covenant theology. And I'm the dispensationalist that he's interviewing.

And the thing is, I find that there is usually a lot more agreement than disagreement that we have.

And there's a lot more straw man arguments that people make from both sides. And the thing that I said on that show that I appreciated with your book is the fact that it doesn't lay the straw, the straw man arguments just because they preach well type of points.

You're laying out a case. In my opinion, you're laying out a case for what you believe you, you explain what you believe and you lay out a case that I found consistent with your view.

It doesn't mean I agree with the view, right? But that's the thing I'm looking for is consistency. And that's what

I appreciated with your book was to a, even if it's a layman, someone that doesn't know the issues,

I found that your book really lays out the view at a high enough level that anyone can pick that up and understand the issues.

And then those who do understand the issues have enough meat to dig deeper. And I appreciate that in a book, cause that's not easy to write that way.

That's gracious of you. So I appreciate that very much. Again, trying to be,

Oh, it's just, it's laid out in a strong way. I have convictions, but I'm trying to say the water's warm.

Come on in. Covenant theology is not the boogeyman and it's probably not what you were told it is from my perspective anyway.

Yeah. It's funny you put it that way. Cause that's usually, that's usually the way I say it with dispensationalism.

Cause when people, if I say I'm a dispensationalist, the number one thing people say is, well, I'm a millennial.

Okay. And I go, okay. So you don't understand dispensationalism, right? It's like, you know, it has nothing to do with that.

Right. But, but let's, so, and let me mention right off the bat, if folks want to get a copy, you can, you can get a copy at Amazon.

It's called covenant theology. Just that simple. Covenant theology by Pat Abendroth. Go to amazon .com.

If you want to get bulk copies, which Pat has said you can do, just go to the pactrum .org

website, get ahold of them there. And that's how, how you'd be able to get bulk copies. So let's start, let me just start with having you give an overview because we're, we're ready to kind of dig in deep and some people may be going, well,

I don't even know what covenant theology is. How does it really differ from dispensationalism?

What, what are the issues? So could you just give a short overview? What is covenant theology and how would it differ from a dispensational view?

You, you were dispensational, you're now covenant. What changed? I mean, you didn't just put on a different suit, right?

So there, there was a change in, in, in, in thinking in what like help folks to understand what those differences are.

Sure. So I'm going to say that covenant theology is a way of understanding the

Bible, biblical history, human history, through representation, through the two

Adams. So I'm going to use Romans five and I think Romans five is inspired by God.

So I think it's the divinely inspired way of understanding human history. And through the first Adam, he represented the human race.

He disobeyed and led to condemnation. And then the last Adam first Corinthians 15 refers to Jesus as the last

Adam, the second Adam, he did what was right. He obeyed. He fulfilled

God's obligation, the divine obligation. And it led not to condemnation for those he represents, it led to justification.

So that at the most simple, at the simplest level, I'm going to say that's federal headship.

Federal comes from a Latin word foidos, which means covenant. So federal headship is covenant headship.

And we're talking about matters of salvation first and foremost. Like I said earlier, we're not talking about matters of millennial views or whether or not the nation of Israel has a future or not.

We're talking about issues that relate to things like justification and righteousness and what it means to be saved.

So at the most basic level, I'm saying that's what covenant theology is and how it differs from dispensationalism.

I want to argue that it actually doesn't. We're talking about apples and oranges. We're not talking about apples to apples.

I think you could be dispensational and also at the same time, affirm federal headship, federal representation.

And I even, I even hear some dispensational say, well, I believe in federal headship, but I don't believe in covenant theology.

And I think that's actually just a contradiction. That's like saying, you know, I like Chinese food and I don't like Chinese food.

Federal means covenant. And so that's really what I'm getting at. So hopefully that provokes a little bit of discussion.

What are your thoughts? What's your pushback to that? Or do you have any? Well, I do believe in federal headship, but I can argue

I like Chinese food and don't like Chinese food at the same time, because see, I like real

Chinese food and not American Chinese food. See, so it just depends on how you define Chinese food.

Well, I think I'm the authority in the matter, Andrew, because I used to pastor a Chinese church.

So how about that? Okay. Well then, so for playing that game, I used to pastor a Chinese church as well, and I'm married to a

Chinese woman. Okay. I didn't know this. So you didn't get to meet my bride in Israel.

So see. It's true. I raised your pastoring a Chinese church, or however that is when you're playing poker,

I see you and I raise you a Chinese wife. You got me there. You got me there. Yeah. When I lived in Los Angeles, I was the college pastor for a bunch of UCLA, USC students.

Okay. This is to my own shame, but it'll give you some humor at my expense.

When I felt that I should be marrying who I'm married to now, she was like going,

I don't, like she was thinking the same thing, but she was like, you know, for her, it was, I don't know if I want to marry an American.

She's very Chinese. Some of her sisters took American names. She didn't.

She never wanted to be in American culture. She wanted to stay in a Chinese culture.

All of her friends were Chinese for me. The pathetic thing was

I was going, Lord, I don't know if I should really think about marrying her because I don't like Chinese food that much. Oh no.

Yeah. It was that pathetic. And then she introduced me to authentic Chinese and game over.

I was, I was good with it. See, so I could not like Chinese food and like Chinese food.

Fair enough. Well, on the serious level. So that that's my number one appeals to say, this is a way to understand the

Bible, human history. Ultimately it's through the lenses of the two Adams.

And it's an important matter because we're talking about issues related to salvation. Yeah. I should probably point out too.

Sometimes people don't even know what a covenant is. And your listeners probably do. I actually was going to ask you to define a covenant because you, you focus on three covenants in your book, but one of the things that's healthy in your book is you lay out it right from the beginning of what, what exactly is a covenant, which is, when we talk covenant of redemption, which will be the next thing, it's important to know what a covenant is, because there is this discussion even that you recognize in your book about the covenant of redemption.

So you'll define a covenant. And then with that,

I want you to explain why you chose the three covenants that you did. Sure. So a covenant is a formal agreement and by agreement, what we don't mean is you don't have to have equals.

You know, God didn't say, do you agree? He can, he can impose the covenant if you will. It's a formal agreement that creates a relationship is how

I would simply define a covenant. So marriage is a covenant in the Bible and the old Testament. So it's a formal relationship.

There's a formal agreement in marriage. It's why we exchange vows, right? We're swearing, we're taking oaths, if you will.

So in simplest terms, a covenant is a formal agreement. It's binding. There are consequences if the covenant is broken, there might be rewards if it's kept or benefits.

And so I tried to find as many definitions as I could. And some of the definitions are too elaborate and some are too lean, but I think when you boil it all down, it's a formal agreement.

So I think that's the best way to summarize it. If we start adding things and we say there has to be blood or things like that, maybe we're going to discount certain things that are covenants and now we're going to say they can't be covenants because there was no blood.

Marriage would be an example of that. So I've met so many Christians that don't know what a covenant is. And the words, you know, you saw often in the

Bible, it would be good to know it's a formal agreement, creates a relationship. It's not that complicated.

And it's important what you pointed out is it doesn't require both sides to have agreement in that.

For example, we see a covenant in scripture where God says, okay, you're going to go to sleep and I'm going to cut two halves of the animal and walk between them because sorry,

Abram, you had nothing to do with the covenant. It was all God. And that was a sign for him that God was making the covenant.

And it really didn't matter what the human in that case thought about it. Yep. Absolutely. Yep. And we're familiar with covenants.

If we own homes in America, at least, you know, we have covenants in my neighborhood.

I can't paint my house pink or something like that. There's an agreement that all abide by the rules.

And if not, there are consequences. Yeah. Now you chose three covenants to focus in on with covenant theology, that let's deal with the first one, the covenant of redemption, which you point out, not everyone would see it as a covenant.

Some people try to say it's an agreement, which kind of by your definition is a covenant.

So what is meant by the covenant of redemption?

And why is it important? Yes. And none of these covenants, the covenant of redemption, covenant of works, covenant of grace that we're going to be talking about.

You can't find any of them in a word search. If you have a, even a fancy Bible program, but they're labels, sort of like Trinity is a label.

You won't, if you do a word search in your Bible, you won't find Trinity. So we're using them as labels, shorthand.

Hopefully that helps people as well, just to know that. So covenant of redemption would refer to the fact that our triune

God, father, son, and Holy spirit committed, agreed, if you will, covenanted before the foundation of the world.

So think Ephesians chapter one to redeem sinners. And so what we have is not an afterthought, not something that God came up with later as, oh, maybe

I should do that. In light of Ephesians one before the foundation of the world, you have the father, you have the son, you have the spirit, all three members of the triune

Godhead in Ephesians one. And so that's what I would mean by covenant of redemption.

So they're unified in doing what they did. The father elects, if you will, the son provides redemption and the spirit applies, but I'm a good enough

Trinitarian to know they're all involved in all three, but that's kind of an oversimplification. And the helpfulness of knowing this would be even before Genesis one, one there, there is a plan.

There's a plan for human history. History's going somewhere. We start seeing, you know, the animal sacrifices.

We say, oh, those are, those are anticipating. Those are looking forward to a greater lamb, if you will.

So it's quite helpful as well. Even when we talk about the covenant of redemption, this pact, that's where we get the pactum from my podcast, the pactum .org.

The pactum salutis is shorthand for the covenant of redemption, the pactum of salvation.

Theological covenant. It's not a biblical covenant. I don't mean unbiblical, but it's not a biblical covenant as in Abrahamic covenant,

Mosaic covenant, new covenant. It's more of a theological construct based upon the biblical data.

And just for anyone in the audience who may say, wait a minute, Pat, what do you mean unbiblical versus biblical?

What he was saying there is that there are things that are biblical. In other words, we find them in the

Bible. The fact that God is one, that's in the Bible. There are unbiblical things such as a plurality of gods.

That would be unbiblical because the Bible speaks against it. But there are things like this, for example, the

Trinity, as Pat, you brought up, that are not in the Bible spoken for, it doesn't clearly delineate a definition of the

Trinity in the Bible, but it doesn't speak against it. So it's not that it's unbiblical.

It's just not in the Bible. Right. That's what I meant by a construct.

We say Trinity is a good example, or when people try to explain, when theologians try to explain the deity of Christ, as well as the humanity of Christ, both are true.

And so they use labels like the hypostatic union, and you're a new Christian, you're like the what?

But once you've been involved in the Christian family for a while, you learn some of the shorthand. And that way you can simplify things, cut to the chase.

If I was talking to a brand new Christian who has come out of Jehovah's Witnesses or something, I probably wouldn't use the label

Trinity. I would explain things from the biblical text, but eventually when they've been in the family a little while and they understand shorthand, we would just say

Trinity. Yeah, and it's good to define what we mean by terms, but at the same time, folks, if you're listening and hearing something like the hypostatic union and going,

I don't know what that means, it either means you're not in a church that's encouraging you to dig deep, or you're a new believer, or you just have not rooted yourself in the body of believers enough to start to understand these shorthand terms, these terms for us to know.

So my encouragement, if you don't know that term or any of the terms, it is encouraging that you get involved more in theological discussions, reading, talking, podcasts, whatever, to understand some of these things.

So I do want to talk about why the covenant redemption, you started with that, why it's important.

After a quick word from our sponsor, I want you to dig into, you started with this.

This is really, I think, foundational to the other two covenants you're going to discuss.

And so I want to ask you, why is this one so foundational in understanding covenant theology?

But let's do that right after a word from our sponsor. We are sponsored here from MyPillow. If you guys want to get yourself a great night of sleep,

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So let's get back with our guest, Patrick Ebendroth, with the book

Covenant Theology. It's available on Amazon .com. If you want to get large quantities, get a group discount, maybe go through this book as a

Sunday school in your church, you could go to pactum .org to contact them for group discounts.

If you're going to do a Bible study like this, only do it if you're already Presbyterian. Oh, wait, no.

No, but I think it's helpful. Look, folks, why would

I read a book like this? Why would I get into a book like this? Because I think even if I don't agree with it, it sharpens my understanding of both

Patrick's view and my own view. There's some things that he raised that I had to get me to go, okay,

I want to rethink that. I got to think about that. That is a healthy thing for us to do as Christians.

We got to kind of loosen the reins a bit on thinking that we are the end -all be -all of theology and realize that we're all wrong somewhere and we can learn from others.

It is healthy and helpful to read from the other side and understand the other position, especially before criticizing it.

But in covenant theology, Pat, the covenant redemption is a very important covenant.

It's one that none of us were there for. But why is this so important?

Why is this kind of the foundational one for everything else that we're going to build upon?

I think it's foundational because we actually have biblical data telling us that there's a thing behind the thing as the kids say.

Something happened before time even began as we know it, and that would be God being sovereign and purposing, decreeing to save, elect sinners.

Once again, it's Ephesians 1. In theological terms, we describe it as the intratrinitarian, the atemporal, how about that,

Andrew? The atemporal intratrinitarian covenant or agreement, which is a really fancy way of saying the triune

God before the foundation of the world committed, think covenant, committed, swore, went under oath, if you will.

It's formal. It's not casual to redeem, elect sinners. And so that's really important.

It's what causes us, I think, the Apostle Paul to praise God because it's beyond our pay grade.

No wonder he says, blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. And he has that in Greek, the run -on sentence.

He's like falling over himself in sanctified praise that our God has done this.

It's not because we deserve it. And so it's important for that reason. It's also important because then when we're reading the whole

Bible, we know history's going somewhere. Even when we're reading, you know,

Nehemiah or Esther, somehow there is a perfect plan that centers on, culminates with Christ.

Things are moving toward Christ. And so it helps us to be better Bible readers as well.

I think it helps us to be Christ -centered in an appropriate way, knowing that the types and shadows are anticipating, you know, the substance, the reality of Christ.

So it helps us with our Bible reading. It helps us with assurance because this is something that God decreed to have happen.

And so it's sure it's going to happen absolutely, positively. So I love the covenant of redemption because it's about sovereignty.

It's about sureness. It's about God's loyalty, even to himself, if you will.

There's so many good reasons to think about how great this plan and purpose is. So you're just getting me started, getting me revved up and warmed up to talk about the covenant of redemption.

Think about the son. He didn't come here to do nothing or to do whatever he decided to do.

He came to do what he was commissioned to do. I'm thinking of John 17 and just looking forward to he's accomplishing his perfect work.

Covenant of redemption is wonderful. The reason we call, you know, our podcast ministry the

Pactam is because it includes everything. We can talk about anything. We can talk about any theological issue, any theological concept, past, present, future, because somehow everything relates to the

Pactam, the covenant of redemption. I like how you say it in your book here for this covenant.

The formal agreement is between the members of the triune God made before the foundation of the world and is in order to redeem the elect.

I mean, that's probably the, to be honest with you, the simplest I have ever seen it explained and defined.

Awesome. Awesome. Well, it's controversial if you don't believe in election. Yes. Predestination and things like that.

But if we're already okay with those things, I think the biblical data is there to at least get our attention to say, huh, that seems like it could actually have biblical traction.

And it's why Christians believed it in the past. If we're not okay with election, then you got a problem because it's in the, that's actually one that's in the

Bible, right? I had someone that accused me of being a Calvinist and I just,

I never use the term because I never know what people mean by it. And this is from a sinless perfectionist.

And I said, he said, well, you're a Calvinist. I said, what makes you say that? He says, your doctrinal statement.

I said, what am I doctrinal statement is Calvinistic. And he quoted where I quoted

Ephesians one before the foundation of the world, God elected. He's like, you're a

Calvinist. I'm like, you do realize that's Paul writing by inspiration of the

Holy Spirit, right? It's amazing sometimes. It's like, don't confuse me with the facts. I know what

I believe. Hey, I say on this program very often. Unfortunately, we live in a generation now where theology doesn't matter.

Truth doesn't matter. The narrative matters. And really that's what we see, especially on social media, right?

It's just the narrative that matters. It doesn't matter what's true. I think you're correct.

So let's get into the next two because this is where I think a lot of focus when we talk covenant theology, when people discuss it, the covenant of works and the covenant of grace is the next two covenants you focus on.

And I want to explain, son, that I've explained on this show before, there is a fallacy that people make.

I've seen it on both sides when they describe the other view, strongman arguments people make. And I always tell this story when

I was in seminary taking class on dispensationalism, I'm reading from a dispensational book first.

And I was glad I went to a seminary that encouraged reading both sides of an argument. I like doing that anyway.

It was helpful. But I still remember reading a dispensationalist said, well, we dispensationalists, we basically said covenant theology is basically wrong.

And they believe in two ways of salvation, works in the Old Testament, the covenant of works and grace in the

New Testament. But we dispensationalists believe ever since the fall of Adam, it has always been by grace.

And I read that and said, well, I guess I'm a dispensationalist because that's what I would believe. But some weeks later, when

I'm reading the covenant position, I read this basically, and again, paraphrasing, but basically the author said, well, dispensationalists believe in two ways of salvation, works in the

Old Testament and quote Schofield's original reference notes where it said that and grace in the

New, but we covenant theologians believe ever since the fall, it's always been by grace. And I remember taking the other book off the shelf, looking at it, looking at both of them going, these guys are not reading each other, right?

So when I want to preface, when we talk about a covenant of works and a covenant of grace, they are not.

And if any dispensationalists are making this argument, stop it. It's bad.

It's a, it's a straw man. The covenant of works is not a works -based salvation of the

Old Testament. It is not keeping the law to earn a salvation in the

Old Testament. That's a bad argument. Don't do that. So, so.

That sounds so much better coming from you than from me. So Andrew, high five. Well, could you explain what it is?

Because this is the thing. I know that many dispensationalists will make this division because they only hear covenant of works and covenant of grace.

There's more covenants we have in throughout scripture. You have the Abrahamic covenant. You got no way to covenant, right?

You have a lot of different covenants, but I think that lazy people, just my guess, maybe they're not so lazy, but I'm assuming lazy people just look,

Old Testament, New Testament, covenant of works, covenant of grace, and they assume works are for Old Testament time that people got saved through obedience to the law.

That's what it's not. So what is the covenant of works? So covenant of works would be, again, think formal agreement between Adam and God.

So Adam was to obey, and he was to obey to gain eternal life for himself and those he represents.

And so that goes back to Romans 5, 18 and 19, but he didn't obey.

He disobeyed, he rebelled, and it led not to justification. It led to condemnation.

So God works through representation, and the two representatives we're talking about would be Adam and Jesus.

And that's the covenant of works. If he obeyed, it would lead to eternal life. It led to condemnation.

And this is not just in the Old Testament. It's also true in principle. So in principle, and the reason

I'm saying that is because it was only formally with Adam, but in principle, it's always true.

So even after Adam fell, the requirement was still there. Love God with heart, soul, mind, and strength and love your neighbor as yourself.

That's Old Testament. That's New Testament. And it is why, Andrew, Jesus says in Luke 10, he says, do this and you will live.

And that's in the context of someone asking him, you know, how do you gain eternal life? And the answer is, love

God with heart, soul, mind, and strength, love your neighbor as yourself. And Jesus says, that's right. Jesus affirms that answer.

He says, do this and you will live. Now, in reality, that attorney, that Bible attorney, that law expert, that theologian couldn't have because he's in Adam.

He's already condemned. But in principle, it's always true. If you obey perfectly, personally, and perpetually, as the theologians say, you'll gain eternal life.

It's not going to happen for any of us, but it's still true. It's why we need a last Adam. It's why we need

Jesus. It's why we need a representative other than Adam. And so do this and live in principle.

And once you see that, you see it repeating itself throughout Scripture. It's again and again and again.

That's covenant of works talk. Now I say, I like and appreciate the knee -jerk reaction.

When a believer hears covenant of works, I like it that they respond with, that can't be right.

Because they're thinking Ephesians 2, 8, and 9. They're thinking of all the texts that teach salvation is not by works.

And I say, praise God, that's a great instinct. It's not by works. But he's talking to sinful people who are already condemned in Adam.

But in reality, in principle, it's always been about works. That's why you need someone who perfectly does all the right things and makes atonement for your rebellion.

So covenant of works, formal agreement between God and Adam. And he was in a covenantal relationship.

That's an objection. People said there was no covenant in Genesis. Or Genesis 1 to 3. Well, I think that's a fallacy because the word sin isn't used there either.

But we all know there was sin. In the garden. Just because the word's not used doesn't mean the concept isn't there.

Adam was not in a casual relationship with God. He formally had to do what was right.

And so, I like what Mike Horton says. If it looks like a covenant, sounds like a covenant, I don't think he says smells like a covenant.

It's probably not a horse. Might just be a covenant. Yeah. You put it this way in your book.

Quote, The covenant of works is the divinely arranged agreement whereby

God would give eternal life to Adam and those he represented if Adam obeyed.

Unquote. So this is not... Clearly, you're making the clear delineation.

And I think covenant theology makes the clear delineation. The covenant of works is not a covenant that started with Moses.

With the law. That's true. Yes, absolutely. This is the mistake I think many people make with this.

They act as if the covenant of works is tied to the law and not to Adam.

And this is where, like I said in my experience in seminary, there's agreement on both sides.

And yet both sides like to point darts at the other side in bad arguments that are made.

Not everyone does it, but a lot of people do because it's easy. It is. It is. And I think sometimes it's...

I think some earlier dispensationalists were more covenantal when it comes to this issue.

And I don't know if it's just to try to protect the system or have a slam dunk argument or turf wars, but I find it refreshing that some older dispensationalists, even

Larkin in his charts and others as well, they see this covenant of works concept even if they don't use the label, the covenant, the

Adamic covenant. They're okay with using the label because the data is there.

The concept is there. So I love what you pointed out, Andrew, that we're not talking about with Moses. This is with Adam in the garden.

And even though we're not talking about Mosaic law, we are talking about law because there is a law written on the human heart.

It's a law before the law, if you will. Adam wasn't free to do whatever he wanted. I think this is what Paul talks about in Romans 2, where he talks about it's not the hearers of the law who are justified, it's the doers of the law who are justified,

Romans 2 .13. Well, that's covenant of works talk. We learn in chapter 3 of Romans, there's none righteous, no, not one.

No one does good, no, not one. But in concept, in principle, I think that's what he's getting at in Romans 2.

It holds true. If you're perfectly obedient, if you're a doer of the law, you'll be justified.

Well, you and I know, Andrew, there's not a long line of doers of the law to be justified.

In fact, there are no sons of Adam in that line. There's only one, and his name is Jesus. He's the only one who fulfilled all righteousness.

But it is helpful. It's a helpful theological concept because once you see it, you say, oh,

I see this in principle. It's in the old, it's in the new. And it's in the mosaic, right? When Israel's called to obey perfectly, to gain reward, they don't do it.

There's failure after failure. And so there, I think, the covenant of works concept or principle is applied to Israel.

They hear the law and they say, oh, yes, we'll do it. For sure, we'll do this. It doesn't go so well.

And so let's, I want to get to the covenant of grace. But before I do, I just want to mention, folks, we're sitting, we're having disagreements.

That's healthy. I think it's healthy. Let me recommend knowing this podcast, but another podcast that likes to do the very same thing, and that's conversations that matter with John Harris.

If you aren't listening to that one, you are missing out. He is someone who, like this podcast, likes to listen to both sides of an argument, likes to make sure he researches things before he speaks.

A crazy idea, I know. But if you're not listening to conversations that matter with John Harris, I highly recommend that you check that out.

I also will let you know that I'll have more details coming, but John has invited me to speak at one of his upcoming events that will be in September.

I believe it's, I'm going to get there September 21st to 24th, and it's up in Northern New York.

So the details for that, the registration is going to be coming out soon. So be looking for that.

That's a men's retreat. So I encourage you to, I think the topic is overcoming evil.

So that will be something to look forward to. So I encourage you to check out conversations that matter with John Harris as a podcast.

Another one to add to, you should also add, as we're discussing it, the Pactrum. Go to pactrum .org,

find out about our guest's podcast. Again, the guest we have is

Pat Ebendroth. The book is Covenant Theology, available on amazon .com.

So Pat, the Covenant of Grace, this is the one we love to talk about. And this is, though, again, if we go back to the fallacy, people think this started with Jesus Christ on the cross.

This goes right back to that same fallacy that many people make of Old Testament, New Testament. What is the

Covenant of Grace? And did it start at the cross or was it earlier than that?

How about it could never have been a reality apart from the cross. That's true. Let's not have it start with the cross, right?

So all of the saints who've ever been saved in the Old Testament, so Abraham was justified by faith, according to Romans 4, not to mention the actual text in Genesis.

So all folks who've ever been saved have been saved by grace alone, through faith alone, we would say on account of the finished work of Christ alone.

Even if it was before Christ came, it was in anticipation. I'm thinking of Hebrews chapter 9.

So if we affirm what we call in theology sola fide sola gratia, grace alone, faith alone.

If we affirm this, I think there's just a shorthand label for addressing it and it would be the

Covenant of Grace. Because of the perfect work of Christ, he fulfills the obligation. Salvation comes to us freely.

And so if we really want to simplify things, my relationship with God, my formal relationship with God now that's positive,

I'm not under condemnation. I've been justified freely. It's freely. It's only because of grace.

It's been given to me not because of anything I've done, just like it wasn't given to Abraham by anything he had done.

It's all because someone met the obligation for doing this and living eternal life and his name is

Jesus. And so if that's what we can call the

Covenant of Grace for shorthand, I'm all for it. Again, I can't find it in a word search.

But how do we relate to God? We relate to God formally as believers, not under condemnation, but justification.

How did that happen? Only by grace. Came to me freely. I didn't do anything to earn it.

And so that's what I mean, really, if we're getting down to it, by the Covenant of Grace. And so for folks to realize, this is not

Old Testament, New Testament. This is every Old Testament saint was saved under the

Covenant of Grace. So it's just people have to recognize it. But I want to get a little practical with folks because we lay out the foundation, but when we talk about the differences, dispensationalism and covenant theology, the mistake some people make is thinking dispensationalism is an end -time system.

Some people will make the mistake of saying covenant theology is really a systematic theology that you read the

Bible through. It's really not. Both are really a hermeneutical system, which is hermeneutics is a fancy word for the art and science of interpretation.

It's how we interpret things. And in fact, every one of you listening is practicing hermeneutics right now, whether you realize it or not.

You're hearing us speak and you're interpreting what we're saying. You're listening to context.

You're listening to the words, the grammar. There are rules you apply. But when we talk covenant theology, really it is a hermeneutical system, just like dispensationalism is, right?

And so there are differences that we see between these. Let's make it practical for folks. From a covenant perspective, how does this help us to interpret the

Bible? I think it helps us to interpret the Bible because there are so many verses, right?

There's so much data. And how do we get our mind around all of the data? Are there conclusions we can draw about the whole thing?

Genesis to Revelation, that would be true, biblical, but could also be helpful in our reading of scripture, our understanding of scripture.

And what I mean by covenant theology, what we're getting at, I think there is a way. And there are other nuances, there are lots of details, but the big picture, 30 ,000 foot level, oh, covenant of redemption, covenant of works, covenant of grace.

When I read strict requirements in the Bible, for example, I don't have to say, oh no,

I've not done that perfectly. I haven't done enough to be justified. That could happen in Romans chapter two, if I weren't reading it in context, and if I didn't have a broader biblical lens, and I think it's even easier if I just remember the two

Adams, if I remember covenant of works, covenant of grace, then I can say, oh, wait a second, I'm gonna look at other biblical texts and it's part of the system, yes, but I think it's biblically derived that can cause me to not lose sleep because I haven't done enough to be justified.

I can actually have assurance because Jesus met the obligation for me, and now I can rest in Christ.

I think that's part of the practicality of covenant theology. Maybe another one would be when

I'm reading through Matthew's gospel account, and I see Jesus overcame temptation, and he did so wonderfully, and he did so, and he quoted scripture, and so is the big takeaway when you're tempted, you should quote scripture to the devil also, and somehow if you do that good enough like Jesus did it perfectly, then

God will be happy with you. Well, Andrew, you and I have heard those sermons from people, maybe to my shame,

I've preached them, but when you grow in your understanding of the bigger picture and looking at all the data, you say, you know,

Jesus was tempted, and that sounds like the temptation of someone else we learned about in a garden kind of scenario, tempted by the devil, and unlike the first Adam, Jesus does the right thing.

I want to trust in that Adam, the last Adam, 1 Corinthians 15, for my salvation.

Oh, he was acting federally. He was acting covenantally. He's acting as a representative.

Oh, that's the takeaway. That sounds a lot like, you know, how covenant theology is helpful in understanding scripture.

He did what he did. Jesus wasn't baptized by John the Baptist because he's showing all of us it's important to be baptized.

It is important to be baptized, but that was a unique baptism of repentance, and Jesus didn't need to repent, but he did it as a representative.

He said, let's do this, even though John didn't want to do it. Let's do this to fulfill all righteousness.

Oh, that means legal requirement. God was calling people to repent, and Jesus, you know, if you will, repented on behalf of everyone who would trust in him representatively.

So it really changes the way we read scripture, and I think for good, not in a false, you know, superficial, superimposing kind of way.

Well, and I think this is helpful, folks. I want you to consider, even if you don't agree with covenant theology, may

I encourage you to get the book Covenant Theology on Amazon by Pat Abendroth.

The reason being is at least make sure you have a fair representation of the other side, even if you don't agree.

If you do agree with covenant theology, then I do recommend the book because I think this is, like I said,

I get referred to as someone who writes in a very concise way, and that's what

I found with this book. I found it to be very concise, very easy to read, yet there's a lot of meat there.

There's a lot to dig into. So I think this book has something for everyone. That is, whether you agree or disagree with the view,

I think you're going to get something out of it. I think you're going to learn something, even if you disagree.

Yeah, you can learn something from people you disagree with. It's a crazy idea. But I encourage folks to get a copy of Covenant Theology by Pat Abendroth, or Patrick Abendroth is the way that it is on the book.

You know, holy right reverend. Yeah. So, okay. Look, I got to ask, before we go, really, who's the better preacher, you or your brother,

Mike? Oh, you know, he's a preaching professor. So without any question, he's the better preacher.

So there is that. I'll admit that anytime. I thought you were going to say you were the better, and, you know, but he, so to be completely transparent here, your brother's actually the one when

I, after I got to know him, I would send him my sermons for review.

That's kind of risky. Oh, no, I sent it to him because I know he, he even said to me, he's like, but Andrew, you know,

I'm going to be brutally honest. I said, that's why I'm sending it to you. I don't like, I want you to be brutally honest because I want to improve.

And so I was, you know, I was glad, although I admit that, you know, this was, this was during COVID.

So like one thing he was like, you know, you got to get rid of the laptop. I'm like, well, yeah, it's because I'm Zooming.

So he was like, oh, okay. Cause yeah, no choice.

And it was funny. Like he, his other criticism was really funny. Cause I like, I had a coughing fit just before I started preaching.

So I threw a cough drop in and he's like, you were, you had sun in your mouth. It was very distracting. I'm like, okay, that's very unusual for me to do, but, but he is, he is an outstanding preacher.

Shout out to him. Yeah. And I'm up by him. He came up to new England area.

He's he's up this way preaching. I've I've had the privilege of being at his church before. And so, but I appreciate your time.

Maybe, you know, maybe have you, if you, if you're interested coming onto the Apologetics Live, which is a longer podcast where we have more back and forth,

I could disagree. I'll disagree with you more on that show. No, but no, I, I. So generous on this episode,

Andrew. So I appreciate that. No, I, I really, I, I mean, look, I'm honest. I found the book to be very helpful.

I think that it was well -written. It would, it really explains the view without, you know, misrepresenting the opposite view, which

I unfortunately find few books that do. So I really commend you on the work on, on this book.

I really appreciate it. You know, I, I, I, I, I do should say for the record though, that, you know, you're, you know,

I received a free copy of it for review, but that did not in any way influence my review.

Cause I know for, for legal reasons, you have to mention when you get free copies of things, but you know, but you, you sent me a copy.

I read it. I told you, I disagreed. I told you, I wouldn't say that, you know, that I would agree with it if I didn't.

And, and there's, you know, there's things I would disagree with is, but I think that it's a very helpful book and I think it's a good book for everyone to have on their, on their shelf.

So I, I commend folks get a covenant theology by Patrick Abendroth.

Pat, any, any last things you want to say, any, any things you're working on any things with the podcast you want to promote?

Sure. You know what I'm working on something on the active obedience of Christ. So there is an appendix in covenant theology on the topic.

So this is a same takeaway, but working on something that's smaller, easy, accessible.

I just want people to sit down and be able to read it in one sitting and by active obedience of Christ. I mean that, that he not only made atonement for our sins, which is super important, but he also did all of the right things.

He fulfilled all righteousness. And so there's great assurance in that. So it's the twofold work of Christ, if you will.

And it's a controversial issue for some, hopefully. We can help out with that a little bit, that Jesus is maybe a better savior than we even realized.

Pat Abendroth has a lot of sin to be atoned for, but Jesus doesn't just bring us to zero.

He doesn't just get rid of the guilt. He also does everything right on our behalf so that God can justify us freely.

Not based upon nothing. The Roman Catholic church says that we believe in legal fiction because we believe in justification by grace alone through faith alone.

No, it's not legal fiction because it's based upon something real, the real righteousness of Christ.

So working on that, hopefully it'll be out in the next few months. And so appreciate you asking me about that.

Well, I'm really looking forward to the trilogy closing with why I left covenant theology and returned to dispensationalism.

No, no, that's not coming. Oh, all right. We have to work on that.

No, I, I appreciate you coming on. I appreciate, you know, you know, even like the lighthearted way we could, we could have the discussion.

I think that it was, it's good for folks to see. Even how some people disagree on these, in these areas very strongly.

And yet you and I can have a brotherly love for one another agree where we agree and know where we disagree, but not misrepresent one another.

So I appreciate you coming on and taking the time. Absolutely. We'll have to see each other again, maybe not in Jerusalem, although that would be fine.

Yeah. Yeah. We got to find somewhere more local like United States to meet, you know, that would be, that would be better.

Yeah, that'd be good. So with that folks, that's a wrap. This podcast is part of the

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