Sam Allberry’s RZIM Presentation on Transgenderism, Important Issues in Textual Tradition

Anchorings welcome to the dividing line. It's I think it's Tuesday and no, it's Monday. It's Monday because we are doing a short week. I leave on Thursday. For Virginia if you're in that area, we've been posting the information for a long time.

You can register at the door. It's relatively inexpensive. It's on the Trinity and there is a bunch of smart guys talking other than me. I'm just sort of showing up but I'm sure it will be very rich in Apologetic material on the nature of God and things like that.

And so I believe it's Mechanicsburg, Virginia I believe is where that but you can get the information at a omen org. So I leave Thursday and so we've just basically moved the schedule back by a day so we're on today and we'll be on Wednesday at 530 Eastern Daylight Time Lord willing and the Video cards and internet connection and everything else because we never did figure out what happened that last time some.

You're gonna do a test tomorrow. Okay. Anyway, we're supposed to tomorrow. On Wednesday have Michael Brown joining me for about 90 minutes to Discuss the issue of the extent of the atonement. There was a debate last December very strange debate three minute Position statements followed by 45 minutes of cross-examination each really weird with dr. Sunny Hernandez.

It was frustrating because in in General I agreed with dr. Hernandez his position though. Not not completely because he makes You know Goes way way way beyond where where you need to go with a lot of stuff makes it an issue of Fellowship and and really Christianity for that matter.

Doesn't believe I don't believe that Michael Brown's even a Christian and not because of anything else just because it's one thing if you don't believe this then You're not a Christian. The most frustrating thing and I'll only mention it briefly on Wednesday.

Was that no matter what text was addressed for some reason? Dr. Hernandez believes that you are to Quote it in Greek and parse everything before you can comment on it. If you took all the Greek quoting and parsing out.

From what? Dr. Hernandez says he he he talked for about five minutes. You really can't make your position that way and 99 point nine five percent of the Greek was irrelevant to the topic. So it was just hey, I'm really good at first-year Greek Big deal.

It was just Anyways, so after I listened to it, I was like Let's and I had said beforehand if it goes the way I sort of expected to go. How about we have a discussion about this ourselves and Michael said that'd be great.

So We're going to attempt to do that we tried to do that right before I left for Germany and Russia and it didn't work our system went boop and we don't still don't know to this point exactly why it went bloop but it did and so we didn't even get to do the program that day and So we're gonna try it on Wednesday at 530 because you all play with your clocks.

I think the weekend after that if I recall correctly the first weekend in March. So the rest of us don't do that and then we've got to figure out, you know, make all this stuff. I did Notice that a book was sent to me.

I can't tell you much about it and I don't even know exactly how to Pronounce Josh's last name here Naemi, I guess Naemi Nimi something like that. So He lives in central, Illinois and Phil Johnson Mike Abendroth and and good old Nate all put nice comments on the back.

If Josh happens to be a listener it's on limited atonement the supremacy of Christ limited atonement called greater than Aaron I'm. The best way for me to read stuff like this is if I get it in electronic format.

Then I can convert it to mp3 and I can listen to it. But who knows maybe I'll have a few moments to sit down and at least scan through it before before Wednesday. Obviously my desire on Wednesday is to explain To Michael in a clearer fashion than was in the debate the Trinitarian harmony argument for particular redemption the the unity of Father Son and Spirit in accomplishing one Particular thing and obviously Michael and I do not have the foundation in a belief in a Exhaustive decree of God sometimes Michael says things that sort of requires that but that's where I think the inconsistency is but It will be it will be challenging, but we will attempt to do so in a in a useful fashion so that will be on on Wednesday and hopefully everybody will find that to be useful, I Want to fairly briefly.

I don't want to spend a whole lot of time on this. I'm just gonna play some sex segments. I'm gonna. I can't play it at 1 .8. Well In fact, you know what and let me let me try this. Let me try this audio cleanup.

Oh, it doesn't do that noise cancellation low frequency cut. No, I don't need that. How drab I had I had a Program once that would remove dead space. Yeah. Yeah, and I'm not seeing it here in audio note-taker the audio cleanup noise cancellation click reduction low frequency cut high frequency Cut thinner brighter and play back in mono.

That ain't gonna do me a good Wait a minute. Here's clear lecture processing. I wonder what that is, but it's grayed out so I don't know what maybe that's something I have to buy. Or something. I don't know.

Anyway, as I'm looking at Sam Mulberry's presentations It's about 1 3rd blank space and we could get through it a lot faster if Sam didn't take very very long breaks between statements, so I'm gonna kick that baby up to 1 .4 so we can Use this when the speaker is talking too slowly.

I Left the cursor on the plus. It's this little pop-up thing like no. Okay. All right anyway I've got a lot of other stuff that I want to get to that only we talk about. But this is important stuff, I mean The stuff going on in the SBC how Much of the Conversation taking place There in the Southern Baptist Convention in light of the Onslaught of woke ism.

I mean man there are. And it doesn't it's not just amongst Baptists. There are woke reform Baptists. There are a bunch of woke Presbyterians these days and man once somebody gets woke they they're just once that once woke twice broke and All of a sudden they just lose foundational discernment skills and so There are people making suggestions that basically fundamentally Baptists should abandon their ecclesiology.

Because of the crisis we've got a crisis got to do something. It's called reflexivity. It is a tactic of the left. It is extremely effective. Now that most people are public school educated and Educated by film and by culture to to reflexively respond rather than patiently considering long-term ramifications and functioning on the basis of a consistent worldview you just Knee-jerk reaction just do something that we got to do something now and then you use words like, you know protect people or Stop violence or you know, whatever whatever.

Whatever floats your boat, whatever is going to make people feel better. You use those terms even if what you're actually suggesting isn't going to help Anybody and it's actually gonna make the situation worse, which is normally what you're going for and So that's what we have going on.

That's what we have going on the SPC. I mean, we've got a good we got a good crisis can't can't waste the crisis. So let's let's change all of our Ecclesiology and Create a denomination with a hierarchical structure that can control the local churches.

Well, if that's where you want to go just stop calling yourself a Baptist. That's all The You know so many people say we need to have a centralized structure that can do this that and the other thing.

You mean like Rome? You mean like the Anglican Church? You mean like the Episcopalians with their gay bishops? I Mean this really accomplishes something not really. And of course, what should be the first question?

Tom Askel got to it right the real issue here is an unregenerate church membership. It's It's self-appointed self called Pastors in churches that don't have elders that do not have any type of situation.

We have internal accountability. It's it's come completely discernible from a biblical perspective. But that people but people are still willing to go, you know, I think we'll just over let's just forget about this this Conviction that people in the past have had.

That there are these offices in the church and that you you're not supposed to have this hierarchy and something like hey. The fact the matter is the vast majority of Southern Baptists have never even given thought to ecclesiology.

So why shouldn't they want to abandon it? I? Mean, let's just be honest. The 95 of Southern Baptists have just simply accepted whatever ecclesiology they were handed when they were a kid. They've never thought about they've read over verse, but they've been hit in the head over and over again by the the Apostles appointed elders in the churches and and Stuff is like right on by because you don't have much in the way of interaction going on.

And so I'm not overly shocked that people would be willing to abandon the ecclesiology. They didn't know they had in the first place. I Was talking with this one guy who gets me in trouble all the time.

So I won't mention who he is because I try not to get him in trouble all the time. And he tries to get me in trouble all the time. But anyways, I was mentioning a Similar context where a Southern Baptist.

Well, he was mentioning to me a similar context where a Southern Baptist was fundamentally arguing against original sin and We've seen amongst the traditionalists there. There is really a deep Semi-Pelagian really there isn't any original sin concept a federal headship.

Are you kidding? And So they're just left looking at Romans 5 going on. I don't know what's going on there. It's just really weird and I would say functionally the vast majority of Baptists. I know of excluding reformed Baptist.

Including some but excluding the vast majority of reformed Baptists Do not believe in original sin. They believe in the age of accountability. Because they don't believe in original sin. The two don't go together in case you have ever really tried to figure that part out.

They don't believe in original sin and as a result fundamentally There is no grounds for their having a deep commitment to the imputed righteousness of Christ. They don't see Covenant relationships. They don't see Christ as the head of a new humanity that Romans 5 is just a mystery mysterious babble to them and so the idea of union with Christ election the imputed righteousness of Christ this all stands and falls together and unfortunately for large majority of Baptists they Do not have a coherent Systematic theology so they have no commitment to it.

So if something comes along and all of a sudden it's a crisis. Well, okay. That solution sounds good. Let's go with it. But that solutions against what your statement of faith has said all along. Let's rewrite it.

There you go, and that's what we see happening. That's what's that's what's going on. So It's um, it's troubling but I come back to What I was supposed to be here what happened is Little over a week ago RZIM had Sam Albury speak now my understanding I Forgot to look it up.

I was something I was gonna do. It's a short week I've got I don't even know what I'm gonna be packing to get to get to Virginia and I don't even know what the weather's Gonna be like in Virginia. Who knows?

I hope this cold front and all this cold stuff moved out and moves out before I get there I'm Okay, I'm done with the cold. Okay, the snow in the mountains was night. That's it. Okay I was in It snowed in Munster.

I was I'd never felt the cold that I felt in Russia. I'm done. That's it Don't need any more. It's gonna be in the 70s here. Well, I when I leave it's gonna be great, but Yeah, I'm done I'm ready I'm ready for the ready for summer to come back People go yeah wait till September I'm gonna try to keep this in mind anyway I've got a lot of my mind.

And so I keep forgetting various and sundry things, but I was going to look up When it was that I addressed the live out article and It's been within the past three four months I would say where I took strong Disagreement Based primarily as I recall I didn't pull up the article again Upon the fact that it seems very clear to me that Sam Albury and I disagree on The nature of Homosexual desire or just same-sex attraction if we want to Include lesbianism without making distinctions and so on so forth.

Now this talk and we look talking about was about transgenderism so Related but as we point out in the last program Actually at odds with each other Remember the Martina Navratilova story Where you you cannot hold together LGBTQ, it's it's a self-contradictory Incoherent group.

And so I had at that time Wondered about some of the things that Sam Albury was saying in regards to the nature of same-sex attraction and The issue of it being a disordered desire and therefore If a person as Sam Albury says he himself experiences same-sex attraction He does not believe he can act upon that and therefore he remains celibate but is in leadership.

My understanding is he's in leadership within Anglicanism, which is a whole different dynamic. Even within Anglicanism, I mean you've got the GAFCON guys that are on our side basically and the conservatives and things like that and then you've got Canterbury and Everybody else is way off on way out in some of those cells and the African guys are with the GAFCON guys, basically.

But anyways, um, you've got your conservatives and you got your non-conservative. That sound yeah, that sounds right that sounds right. Yeah, so November 6th of last year, so just a couple months ago.

So I said three or four months. That's right at four months or so anyway, I think we have a disagreement as To whether same-sex attraction is disqualifying for any number of things. So once I listened well, by the way, I was directed To this article By another article about Okay, I was directed to the RZIM.

I had seen it was it was gonna happen, but I had forgotten about it. I was directed to listen to the RZIM Presentation by a written article about it that made it sound really bad. I mean really really bad mega bad and so I went into it probably Unfairly prejudiced because of this article then when I listened to it, I was like should have known better.

It was meant to make it sound as bad as possible. No effort made to actually listen in context at all. So Let me admit right up front that We're all Subject to that and in fact, let's just face it. Most of us act upon what somebody else says about something a lot of you're gonna act upon Sam Albury based upon what I say and That's not a good thing.

None of us can keep up with everything. None of us can avoid all of it but that's why Grace is important grace and truth. The great balancing act that any mature Christian must constantly try to maintain it the world will do everything it can to destroy balance of grace and truth anyway.

So I listened to it and so I said, you know There were stuff in here that concerned me there's stuff in here that troubled me. But there was a whole lot of stuff that was said exactly the same way. I would say it there was there was a bunch of stuff that was like Yeah, that's how I'd respond.

Oh, there was one. I forgot to mark it. Mmm. Oh It was the There was an audience question. He was asked oh That's right. He was asked would you use someone's chosen pronouns when you knew? What their Genetic gender birth gender, it's so confusing anymore.

Did we ever we start this program? We never thought we'd be sitting around trying to figure out who boys and girls are. Oh, yeah He was asked would you you if someone asked you to use their chosen gender pronouns and I Appreciate the response.

Because my my immediate response would always be no. Because that is asking me to engage in rebellion against God. God Makes men male and female there is. I wrote it's how man. Why didn't I memorize it?

What was it point 0 .05 was the maximum number at 0 .05 of the human population experiences actual genetic polymorphism when it comes to sexuality. I Have an old genetics book because I studied genetics in college.

I've thought about finding out what the current updated version would be that would give me the numbers. But I also looked it up online and of course you find all sorts of transgender sites that massively inflate the number just amazingly.

But the actual number is about point zero five percent. So ninety nine. So when I say ninety nine point nine five, that's That actually is the right number. Leaving out the point zero five, that's the maximum number the point zero five percent.

Ninety nine point nine five percent of people are dealing with are not genetically abnormal and Therefore are engaging in an act of rebellion. They may have a serious mental problem. For example and remind me that I'm trying to get back to whether you use gender pronouns what Sam Albury sick, but for example There are people who have a mental illness.

That causes them to think that their appendages or an appendage and arm both arms both legs one leg toes, whatever. That some element of their physical body does not belong to them. It's unnatural and they can't sleep.

They can't rest. It's it's like an alien, you know. That's good that's gonna get memed. Yeah. And They they are absolutely serious about it and some people have literally sawed-off limbs. Now we're still at a point in our society Where we recognize that's a problem That somebody needs.

We need to have some counseling here and there needs to be some intervention because we can't have people lopping appendages off. Just Because you feel that's actually an alien when actually it's you and we recognize there's something wrong about that.

There's some there's something has gone but in in the mind and this person is ill. There is a serious issue here that needs to be addressed now, obviously. There are gonna be a bunch of folks or you go.

Well, I don't see a problem with that if you just don't identify with your hand lop it off. That's what we're doing today, that's what that dude and that unbelievable thing He was wearing on the red carpet last night was doing right, you know, we need to stand with the transgender people.

So I'm gonna wear a I'm gonna wear a tuxedo top with a big old poofy skirt. Okay, this happened in Rome too not very long before it fell and that's what's gonna happen here too anyway. So there are people that can seriously Experience Gender dysphoria but Again out of all the people that are calling themselves Trans transgender all the Bruce Jenner's in the world The vast majority of them as well are doing this as an act of sexual rebellion.

There isn't any truly underlying cause they're not gonna lop off a hand. They may lop off something else if they go far enough, but they're not gonna lop off a hand and it's just rebellion and A lot of it is now being engendered by the breakdown the family boys who don't have fathers women who don't have mothers and fathers and it's Yeah, it just it just goes from there.

And so you have all sorts of these types of aspects that need to be kept in mind as well. And so When someone says to me do you use someone's preferred gender pronouns if they are in the 99 Plus percentile of people who are not genetically Different and are Simply experiencing rebellion that's asking me to sin with them.

And so I'm not I cannot and will not do that and that will lose you your job in many places today No question about it. That's something that each one of us has to make a decision about. But as the question was being asked I remember right where I was right where I was on the canal riding listening to this as the question was being asked I Had the thought across my mind.

I said well. Then I said to myself Well, I would want to be sensitive to The different context in which this could be asked in other words if I know this person is simply in rebellion and Doesn't know any better in other words.

Well today if I know this person is rebelling and they do know better say raised in the church and they've left the church and they've become an apostate or Something like that then yeah Wild horses couldn't get me to do it because I'm confirming them and their rebellion.

But what if it's somebody who's an Abused foster child who has never even seen a Bible let alone heard the first word of the gospel. Am I going to in that instance? Make sure I cannot ever say anything to them.

Because I will this is the hill I'm gonna die on they're not asking me to compromise anything at that point because they don't know any better and So I thought to myself, I guess I guess there could be some situations where I Could at least use that as an opening to talk about God defines these things and you know say something like well, you know what Jesus said about that.

And instead of just saying no try to find an opening to present the gospel because I Grew up at a time where there weren't all that many people in our society. Who hadn't? Had some exposure to the Bible or to the gospel.

That's not the case anymore. That's just not the case anymore. We have an entire younger generation coming up. That's just secular. They just haven't heard and so in that situation and Right as I'm thinking these things which I thought fairly quickly, you know, you're writing, you know.

You think faster. Sam Mulberry gave the same answer. Basically. He said it, you know, if I know someone who was raised in the church They know better I'm not gonna do it Can't do it because I know what they're asking me to do.

But if I if I do not know whether they have any true knowledge of these things that I'm not gonna make that to be a hill to die on and I'm gonna try to find a way. It's like no. Okay. So what that did is that made me go?

All right before you review this you wrote a book is God anti-gay so I Bought it in Audible very short barely two hours and And listened through it Fairly quickly and I just simply have to say Sam all bear and I are Clearly at odds with one another in regards to same-sex attraction and ministry.

I'm getting the feeling that from living out they are supportive of Stuff that I cannot but cannot be supportive of in regards to the roles of same-sex attracted men and women in church adoption. Parenting can't go there be worth having a conversation about but I've got to say this.

I've just just got to be honest When I listened to is God anti-gay. I I'd like to find out from Sam sometime. Did you read the same-sex controversy? Because the exegesis that was offered of the key texts Leviticus Genesis 8 17 through 19 the Sodom Gamorrah story and and the reason I'm giving you that look right now is There are all sorts of popular ways to get around that one he didn't take him.

He I wrote the section in our book on on the Sodom Gamorrah story. We were smack dab on we emphasized the exact same things all the way through. It was I wrote it first. But Romans 1 1st Corinthians 6 arson equates he thinks the ESV is right, which I think the SV is right in its understanding of arson coit a Somali coy first Timothy 1 on every single one of the biblical texts I could not bring a single word of Criticism because it was I the exegesis was identical to that which Jeff Neal and I had presented almost two decades ago now.

So I'm like, all right, at least I did due diligence and took the time to read the book. So I'm gonna play some of this material and Hopefully and and of course on Twitter, I don't know over a week ago.

I Made the statement That Given Sam Albury's confession of faith Acceptance of Fundamental basic doctrine and of course you're you're hyper-Calvinist type guys or people just go nuts as soon as you say that means anybody is.

If you want to stand in heaven someday and explain to all these other people why you did not treat them as your brothers sisters In Christ, even though they confess that Jesus Christ is Lord risen the dead and so on.

So are they that that's up to you. I You're just much braver than I am. If that makes you feel better because I think they think it's why you want to feel better. But anyway, people went nuts because I said I have to accept that statement that confession of faith and therefore I'm going to try to listen and study in that context and I also included and I can Believe that my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ can be in error on Things that are not definitional of the gospel.

And of course those people who make everything definitional of the gospel Go they go nuts that point but made them a bunch of people get all yeah James White attempts to decipher contemporary gender pronouns circa 2019 colorized.

Yeah, okay, there you go. Yeah, so can you see that yeah. It's Not exactly, you know What was going on there that was more of the alien, you know type thing, but hey, that's that's good. We knew that was coming.

The world has gotten a little strange, you know, it's. So I yeah, just just just a little bit. Yeah. Anyways, I better get back to this. Because this is supposed to be the short part of the program so I have picked this up all the way to 1 .4.

So Sam's going to start talking a little bit faster, but I do want to at least interact with Some of the things was said here. Okay, let's let's let's get to it here. Stop. Well, he sounds funny. It'd be helpful if I plugged it in.

Let's try to him.

So let me ask an awkward question. Am I saying? That transgender people are all futile in their thinking foolish in their hearts and darkened in their minds. No I'm saying that is true of all of us. Without exception Paul is making those comments to the human race.

It is a very unflattering anthropology. But the bottom line is none of us not a single one of us is qualified to determine our own identity. And whatever identity we do come up with for ourselves will not be a good fit.

We just don't have enough access to enough information to truly understand who we really are. And the only identity that could be a good fit would have to be an identity that comes from someone who knows us exhaustively and thoroughly.

Now He was attacked for this section a section and then once you listen to it Then you realize he was unfairly attacked for this section because what he's saying is God Defines our identity not us. We don't get to look at ourselves and our body fit or anything else and Say I am this.

We need to have access to divine revelation. There's a revelation outside of ourselves that defines who we are. God gets to say this not us. It's real easy especially because the long pauses to cut that up and say he's saying something basically the opposite of what he actually did say and That's way way way way too easy to to do so.

Yes Romans 1 is to all of humanity. That's true. But Romans 1 26 to 27 tells us that there are certain depths and levels to which the disordered relationship of creator and creation can go. That end up producing self-destructive realities and Putting us in the position of what homosexuality does being given over to Shameful desires and Just as again we discussed with JD Greer In that sermon that aged very badly in light of the Houston Chronicle story Remember where he said the Bible only whispers about sexual sin that ouch.

As we explained at that point Putting Homosexuality or same-sex attraction and I don't know if Sam would distinguish in Romans 1 between merely the experience of same-sex attraction and what's described in in Romans 1 in reference to Burning in Desire one for another.

I'm not sure if he would make a distinction there I I don't remember him making that distinction in the book, but I could have missed it. I Don't see that there is a real distinction there, but I'd be interested to know whether whether he does or doesn't but once again in emphasis I Think it's important to see the role that same-sex attraction has in Romans 1 now there.

There really isn't a discussion as far as I can see of the modern concept of transgenderism because I mean it's just such a violent violation of Creation ordinance that you don't have a Romans 1 or Leviticus 8 18 and 20 or a Genesis 18 and 19 type situation where you can have a discussion and And bring these types of things out, I mean, it's it's just such an obvious Category violation that the I you know, you have the prohibition against cross-dressing but that hardly gets into the You know the modern situation with what what that is all about so.

We continue on and so it is that after a Samaritan woman encountered Jesus Christ She went back to her hometown and said come and meet a man who told me everything I ever did Could this be the Christ.

Her encounter with Jesus showed her certain things about Jesus, but actually. What she saw about Jesus she saw from what Jesus showed her about herself. It was his ability to put his finger on who she really was.

That made her ask the question. Could this be the Christ. Come meet a man who told me everything I ever did Could this be the Christ?

Sort of except there's there's more to it than that. I mean Jesus didn't just tell her. Well, Jesus didn't tell her everything she'd ever done. He just gave evidence that he knew her heart and knew What her situation was and how many men she had had and so on and so forth.

But he started off with Teaching about who God was and where salvation comes from and and a number of things along those lines as well. So it wasn't just that.

So when there seems to be some kind of tension between our perception our mind and our physicality. We can't just assume what might my mind definitely knows who I am. And if my body doesn't feel like it fits, it must be the body that's wrong.

And which needs to catch up with the mind. Okay, so what do you say?

He's right. The primary problem that Exists from the Christian worldview with transgenderism is Your mind doesn't get to determine your reality. Isn't this the whole point of The autonomous man concept that that as I think I am.

That's what it's all about. And he's saying no God has created you in a particular fashion and it's getting your heart and your mind right that will bring harmony with your body. And.

He's of course exactly right about them. As a pastor, I've I've known many people. Okay, I don't need to. These big big big big gaps. And so was was simply refusing to eat.

Okay, he talks a little bit about anorexia there how your your mental perception can bring tremendous damage to your body.

There was something objective about her physicality that she was missing to significant potential harm. How we perceive ourselves and how we perceive our bodies is not always healthy. It's not always accurate.

It's hard to have these conversations and It's hard to raise these issues. Our culture seems to be in such a kind of I was gonna say such a tizz. Do you have that word in the u .s? Can I commend it to you?

We're in such a tizz about these issues that to stop and think about them always almost seems a kind of betrayal. But think about them we must precisely because we are talking about people and it does not do as well simply to be told.

Well, no, no, you just got to agree with us and don't even ask questions about it.

Now that sounds like he's talking about the people on left. Saying that just accept it. Just just run with it. And he's saying no, we can't do that. And of course we agree.

But as well as what we need to think more carefully about them perhaps our culture and The social media environment is encouraging us to we also need to think through how we help and I want to finish with a few Comments on this.

What can we do? Whatever our particular? Experiences may be or even our beliefs at this stage. Maybe what can we do? to help. Again, I want to commend some wisdom to us from Christian scripture.

Okay, so this is this is where. There were statements made that this made me go and made me go like that more after reading the book because the exegesis in the book was In my opinion quite solid and these comments I didn't find quite solid.

First thing we can do all of us.

Is to listen well. Let me share with you a proverb from the Old Testament. I suspect it's one of the most Overlooked Bible verses in our culture today. If one gives an answer before he hears it is his folly and shame.

The hot take on Twitter. Based on a snap knee-jerk reaction to what you think the other person is saying and whether you like it or not. Is folly and shame? Okay, which side of the debate you happen to be on?

We need to listen to people well if we're going to respond to them wisely and people are people and not issues. We may have very strong feelings one way or another about certain issues. But that is never a justification for not taking the time and care to listen to a person to get a sense of who Someone is where they've come from what have been that the things that they've gone through only when we do that.

But we begin to be in a position To know how to be an encouragement and a help to someone so we can listen well. Secondly we can avoid.

Unhelpful gender stereotypes. Now here's where it was sort of like unhelpful gender stereotypes. Is every gender stereotype helpful and healthy, okay, no. But are there all sorts of Appropriate Gender stereotypes and the answer is yes.

The biblical prohibition on the switching of garments. That's a that's going to change from what one society is to another. It's a stereotype, but it's a good stereotype. This was this was different.

Whether we're believers or not many of our ideas about what makes a man manly or a woman womanly are arbitrary. And for those of us who are Christians again often our kind of instinctive sense of what we think a man should be like and what we think a woman should be like a far more to our culture and often to a previous generations culture.

Then so what the Bible actually teaches. So a question I've been asking people recently just just as to kind of gain a bit of a survey both here and back home In the UK is when you have a men's event at church.

What is it typically built around? What kind of activity when you have a women's activity at church? In the UK the typical response for men's events is it's based around alcohol and spicy food. Specifically beer and curry.

Women's events tend to be based around things like craft. We have an event back in my home church every year. Women's events in the run-up to Christmas on how to make a Christmas wreath. It's a good thing to make Christmas wreaths.

There's a nothing wrong with doing that, but it's interesting. We just we're just assuming. And we're giving out a single if you are a man this is the kind of thing you are expected to be into and interested in in our church and If you're a woman, this is what we expect you to be about and to be interested in.

How many of those things are are somewhat arbitrary?

Okay, I'm not I'm not sure exactly what that means and unless you're saying that it's We should encourage male Christmas wreath production or something. I'm not I Think we're gonna get some of that when he starts talking about David here in a second and that that's where I'm like.

I don't see the reason to go here. So let me just say a couple of quick things on this from a Christian perspective. The vast majority of what the Bible says it says to men and women without distinction.