Is It a Sin to Have Fur Babies?

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Bible sissies Sodomites men with man buns those who approve of men with man buns man bun enablers white nights for men with man buns Homemakers who have finished

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Hanging over our head. They will hear his words They will not act upon them and when the floods of divine judgment when the fires of wrath come

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Welcome to Bible bashed where we aim to equip the Saints for the works of ministry We're your host

Harrison Kerrig and pastor Tim mullet. And today we seek to answer the age -old question Is it a sin to have fur babies now?

The reason that we're doing this episode is because over the weekend I was scrolling through Twitter and I came across a post that Disturbed me to my very core and it read the following Pizza slice for my wife

Thank you. God for putting her in my life and allowing her to love me as her husband now that sounds nice and loving and very heartwarming especially in this holiday season until You see the picture that is

Posted with it and it is a picture of this man feeding a slice of pizza to his dog with his hands and I was looking at that and and that was essentially the the straw that broke the camel's back where You know

Tim and I we were both like, alright, we've got it We've got to do an episode talking about pets in our society.

It's time to have this conversation So Tim, I guess we'll just start off by asking.

Okay, so is it a sin to have? fur babies to refer to animals as Fur babies or or children essentially

Yeah It seems like it's been a conversation that's been building for some time and so let's let's go there but Yeah With the question.

Is it okay to have fur babies? I guess it's it's one of those questions that could be taken in several different ways as far as I can tell so The first way to take that seems to be the most straightforward way to take it

Which is probably not what you're intended by the question, but that is the question You know, is it wrong to attempt through science to create an animal human hybrid, right?

How did you know that that's exactly what I was trying to ask with that question Well, I didn't think it was didn't want to Delimit that as a possibility the second one maybe

Which I don't think you're intending the either but is the is the more general question

Is it okay to have pets right? So is it okay to have fur babies? Is it okay to have? pets

Then a third way to take it would be to take it in a way to say is it okay to call pets fur babies

Is that maybe getting close to where you're going with it? Yeah. Yeah, that's that's probably the closest to what

I'm getting at with that Kind of question. Well, then four though would be though. Is it okay to treat pets like family members?

Uh -huh So, what do you think? What do you want to start? I guess let's start with well, you know the post so the post is about this man treating his dog as his wife, so why don't we why don't we start with the

Family members and work our way down to animal human hybrid We'll work across the spectrum

Yeah, so I don't even know where to start with is it okay to treat pets as family members, but I think

I can I Guess this is the kind of phenomenon, maybe we could just Step back a bit and then talk about why this is even a question, right?

so obviously We'll start out that way. Just you know, why is this even a question?

We're talking about so you saw a post and use Man referring to his pet as his wife and In a lot of ways that's it's the kind of thing that I don't know what to make of that, right?

so I don't know if that's like a tongue -in -cheek kind of thing where it's just Reflective of some, you know animal lover who?

is pretty Uncautious with his words or something like that, right?

And just as you know Reflecting the fact, you know some kind of sentiment like, you know Dogs are man's best friend or something along those lines, or you know, maybe he has a troubled marriage

Oh Bessie over here treated me better than my wife ever did

But the thing is it's the kind of thing that It's the kind of question that really

In some sense, you know is is the kind of question I've been expecting for a while now and and it's the kind of thing that you you've seen building for years and years and years to where we really as We live in a world that really does not

Understand what the purpose of animals are right? We don't understand how we're supposed to relate to them.

I would say but then not only like Society in general, you know, the more that we chuck a

Christian worldview and throw it down the drain essentially I think the more confused we are at this very point the churches seems to be just as bad, right?

So like that example you gave I mean I could multiply examples Just like that so for example

There was a couple at the church. I went to last and I won't tell you their name to protect the guilty, but they posted a picture on Facebook that was essentially a picture of Them, you know the couple and their dog and then the dog said had a

Shirt on it that said big sis, right? And that How did we get here?

How did we get here? Now, all right, so but that's you know, that's not uncommon at all like that kind of thing is not uncommon

Just things like that now me and you you know, I won't we won't say her name but we counseled a girl who was essentially you know a high school girl whose parents

Or Basically, you know her dad was long picture and her mom abandoned her and her brother for long periods of time and she was essentially

Starving to death because she spent all of you know What little money she made from a part -time job trying to feed her brother and her cat, you know and so I mean that's a sad example, but I mean

I I I think this was This kind of issue was really brought home to me and probably you know about six years ago, and I was at a funeral of a church member who whose husband had died and the her kids, you know, they were coming and they were in the midst of grieving and everything else but The kids were two single people

Both of whom you know were career people so there was a guy who was single and the girl who was single and then you know, they're in the midst of this funeral and Their dad just died.

And so they're they're coming To the house, you know to figure out what to do with their mom and everything else and both of them come with you know

They're both single career people and they both come with their pets, right? So they each have their own pet and so instead of getting married, you know

They're off getting a job and you know, first thing they do is get a pet and I mean I I've looked at you know

Every church I've been at it seems like young people. The first thing they seem to do is It's it's like right when they you know want to start off life

It's first impulse seems to be to get a pet before they even get married, right? So get a pet and then and then couples, you know instead of you know

Just getting married and having some sort of expectation. You're gonna have kids first thing They do is go out and buy a pet, right?

Mm -hmm. And so It seems it seems like Like examples like that could be multiple.

I mean, you know, you call Regents Bank for example, and they have some absurd and obscene kind of Whatever that is a call waiting music that's going on That basically is trying to persuade you to get a second mortgage on your home

So you can give your furry friend the backyard he deserves, you know And I mean, it's like we're living in a society right now where we don't we really don't understand what?

Pets are for at all, right? I mean, it's just it's it's overwhelming. It's obvious.

It's like we're in some sense Trying to do something with pets that you're supposed to be doing with people, right so so I mean

So, I mean whether it's just like you have this deep desire for companionship

And so you you want to get married one instead of you know, you're having a hard time doing that So you go buy a pet or you have a desire to have a child and so you you know instead of doing that you?

Get a pet right As a parent or in so I mean

I think the natural result of all that is obviously going to be at some point to where you know You're living in a society which blurred those lines to such a degree that now we're you know, asking a question

Is it okay to marry your pet, right? But Then the question, you know, you're asking is is the question is it okay to treat pets like family members essentially, right?

All right, so that that's where we'll start. So is it okay to treat pets as pets like family members?

and and I think I Think this gets at Something About the idea of pet in general that seems to me to be inherently problematic.

Okay. Mm -hmm. So it seems like There's a passage in the Bible that seems to be relevant to this as far as I'm concerned.

And so You know if you're listening you open your Bible open it to Genesis 2 18 and Genesis 2 18

It seems like you know, if you want to understand why we're here why God made us Then there's no easier place to go than Genesis and that's a book of origins essentially

But then one of the things that's kind of amazing about this passage is that I mean Genesis tells you, you know

In the beginning God made man. He made man in his own image, right? In the beginning he made him male and female if you want to look at our society and see all the things that are wrong

With our society almost at every single point. There's almost like a step -by -step Reversal about what's happening in Genesis and and you know

One of the more interesting things that is happening in Genesis And this is something that people don't all often notice is that in Genesis 2 18?

The Bible says that the Lord God said it's not good that man should be alone.

Okay So it's not good that man should be alone. I will make a helper fit for him, right?

So God didn't design man to be fundamentally alone so God creates Adam first and then

God is looking at Adam and he's you know, the the interpretation there is it's not good for man to be alone So I'm gonna make a helper fit for him and what immediately happens in the passages that God brings, you know

Now out of the ground it says the Lord now out of the ground the Lord God had formed every beast of the field every bird of the heavens and brought them to the

Man to see what he would call them and whatever the man called every living creature. That was his name So the man gave names to all the livestock.

So so at this point in history, right you have man like a single singular entity

Surrounded by animals and yet God describes him as being alone right. Mm -hmm

Think about like the theological implications of that So man is surrounded by animals and yet he's saying God's describing as being alone and that's not a good state

So, what does God do he brings all the animals around man to see what he would name him, right and It says whatever what whatever the man called every living creature

That was his name the man gave names to all livestock to all the birds of the heaven and to every beast of the field But for Adam there is not found a helper fit for him, right?

Mm -hmm No helper fit for man while the animal so what what did God do? Well, then

God makes a woman for the man so that he will not be alone and that he'll have a helper fit for him

And that tells you something about like none of these animals Were meant to be his companion, right?

Wait, so he didn't give him the golden retriever and the slice of pizza It seems to be the case that That if that was what

God intended there was no need for a woman, right? Right. Yeah, but but then you know, this is this this creation account and it says it's not good for man to be alone

This is I mean, it basically gives us a biblical view of what marriage is in general I mean marriage is one man plus one woman in a covenant forever

And that's I mean, this is how you argue against, you know Polygamous marriage you think about the formula one plus one equals, you know one flesh, right?

One man plus one woman equals one flesh. That's where you argue from polygamy. That's how you argue Pedophilia, you know, it's one man one woman.

It's not one man one child. I mean, that's how you are against homosexuality, right? It's not one man plus one man equals one flesh.

It's one man plus one woman So it's not good to man to be alone man supposed to look to a woman to be his corresponding helper to be his companion

Right, but then apart from that even having all the animals they are related to this topic.

He's alone, right? So it seems to me that if you're gonna say hey Is it okay to treat pets like family members?

Well, like the problem there is just to say that from a biblical perspective Like a a a pet is wholly unsuited to that role

Right, right make sense, right like because the pet is not a human and there's a fundamental difference between man and animal

Man is given dominion over the animal and I mean, you know, it just is a simple passage when

I think it was a Samaritan woman was asking Jesus for healing And he looks at her and he says hey, it's not good to give the children's bread to the dogs, right?

Mm -hmm, and her response is that is to say hey, you know, yeah, but even the dogs eat the bread from the master's table like she didn't seem to be offended by that like a good feminist should have been but The problem though is to say that his principle is right

Like there is a fundamental difference like it's immoral like to mix categories in that kind of way to treat

Like there is a care that a person has that he ought to be given

To his children that does not belong to animals, right? Mm -hmm. Okay now, I mean just to give you a funny story along those lines

I mean, I I you know, I'm Constantly trying to warn my children that pets are not people, right?

Right? And so I'm trying to tell them this all the time And so I like they probably roll their eyes at me because I say so much

But I mean, I am constantly saying pets are not people their food, right? And so Now I've told them this over and over and over pets are not people their food

Because I don't want them to fall into this lie that I see that's giving birth to the pizza man, right?

Right Okay one of my kids and I won't tell you it was but he found a lizard and Wanted to bring him home and put him in some sort of enclosure

And he looked at all of us and he said hey we have a new member of the family today, right? Mm -hmm

And I said, hey, wait a minute. Wait a minute. I that Animal is not a member of our family

Like I do not love that animal the way that I love you I'm not making any commitment to care for that animal that animal can go at the moment.

It starts to bother me, right? It can be disposed of We like this is this is an animal like this is not a creature that's made in the image of God like we

We might think that he's fun or neat to look at and see how he camouflages himself with rocks

But he's we should not love him or treat him as a human or act like he's a human or attributed to him human names as far as that Well Well, it may be ironic to attribute him human names

I met human care human emotions and affections and you know Treat him as if he's a human being so So, yeah, no,

I think it's fundamentally immoral and a biblical To treat pets as family members so You know, like we said at the beginning

This is obviously a problem that is Pervasive in our society right now even in the

Christian community, I think I Mean, honestly, I don't even really see a difference personal just anecdotally,

I don't really see a difference between Unbelievers and Believers in terms of you know the way they treat their animals.

Do you agree with that? Oh, I mean, absolutely not I mean like I I you know, just looking at couples in the church world.

We're doing the same thing I mean we the first thing that any couple does is they go out and they get it if they haven't already acquired an animal for themselves it seems like the first thing that they do is

Acquire an animal, right? And then they you know, they obviously Treat them as if they're family members

Despite whatever they claim to be doing and I mean, you know that they do because I test this all the time just because you know

Like to You know put people in situations where I'm gonna get more information out of them than they think

I am, you know, and so But I mean I'm constantly testing this very thing because I mean

I you know, I Can't you know people will probably just roll their eyes. I mean think I'm crazy, but I'm doing it for a reason but But you know,

I'm constantly making jokes about like hey, you know Isn't it nice to have an additional food supply in case the zombie apocalypse comes, right?

But No one thinks that's funny but me, you know, in fact I mean,

I think it's hilarious, but then no one thinks it's I mean, no one thinks it's funny In fact, they think they look at me as if I've said something fundamentally immoral almost every time

Like I without exception like they look at me as if I've said something fundamentally immoral and that tells you though that That like there isn't like they are they are treating them like a family member.

Mm -hmm, right? Mm -hmm like You know what? Why wouldn't you if things got rough and tough?

Kill that thing in order to feed yourself or your family if you're starving to death But then

I mean, you know, we live in a society right now We're I mean the major plot of like TV shows and movies is that very point, right?

So like Superman, which one was it with the where the dad walks into the hurricane?

I forgot. I forgot all about that Oh, man, man of steel. Yeah, we're here to steal. I mean, yeah

We're the whole plot Where he uh, yeah, the tornado is coming and the dog is is the dog trapped in the car?

Is that what yeah, and then he like doesn't let Superman save him. He goes in the car Like, you know, it's like let me go save the dog, you know, it's like that's not here heroism, right?

That's that's insanity. Like that's like, you know, but that's the major plot of a TV show. This is us or whatever

Where the house is burning down and the dad goes in there to save the dog and ends up dying And then they have to deal with it, you know, it's like this is immoral

This is not like greater love has no man than to lay down his life for his pet, you know It's like come on, you know, like this is this is sub biblical this is sub

Christian, you know, this is this is This is not even remotely

Helpful in any way, you know, but anyways, you know, I don't see I don't see the difference

Okay. Uh -huh, right. I don't see the difference in the Christian world. Right? We we We may not be yet at the point where we're gonna, you know, hold out a slice of pizza and You know call the dog or wife, but we've done everything else, right?

But go ahead and so you know, like like we said there there's not really a difference between unbelievers and believers in terms of how they treat their animals, so Um, I guess first.

Yeah, I mean example of that is Karen swallow prior perfect former professor at Liberty basically says that she has a more visceral reaction to Like an animal being abused than the thought of abortion

So this is this is a problem, okay, but anyways good, um, so I Guess the first I guess the first step in the question would be so Your argument was was essentially, you know, hey

Genesis is showing us that Adam was alone. Even when all of the animals were there.

He was naming all the animals. They were all around him He was still alone and God said that it wasn't good for him to be alone.

So he makes a helper He makes Eve and he says that That it's very good.

Right that uh, right that Eve is with him as a helpmate He names

Eve and he's now no longer alone so so that tells us that you know, obviously we've in some way

Elevated animals to a position that they weren't meant to fill but then what does that mean for us?

Morally, I mean is it is this just like a Like a hey, you know, whoops my bad or is this like as a sin?

We're talking about is this unwise Actions that we're taking unwise things that we're saying unwise views that we're

Applying to our animals or is this something worse? Is this is this to the point where you know?

It's we're in like sin territory now Yeah, I mean,

I guess just maybe you could clarify. What is the this? Oh the this would be treat, you know treating animals as a member of the family whether it's you know, the the, you know dog wife or It's fur babies or whatever, you know, it's the lizard that's now

Joined your family You know, where is this falling in terms of moral categories?

Yeah, treating pet as a family member. I think I Think it's a difficult question to answer because There's obviously a spectrum of people who are doing things along these lines.

And so in some sense, it's like it's hard to Talk about like something, you know, like the

Like the couple or whatever who has the dog in there basically Has a big sister shirt on it or something like that, right?

Mm -hmm like If you were to confront them about it

It might be that the responses. Hey, yeah, I know that they're not their actual sisters

Come on, man, just like lighten up a little bit and it's just right, right? It's just a joke

Yeah, as far as that goes, but then the problem is it's like it obviously doesn't seem like a joke

Okay The problem is it obviously doesn't seem like a joke because it seems like you love this animal as much as you'd love a human being and Like your life revolves around this animal and you treat it as if it's a kid

You talk about it as if it's a kid, right? You act as if it's a kid.

I mean like you You're turning, you know from for a long time

You've turned to these animals to do for you what human beings should do And so you'll forgive us if we think perhaps that there might be possibly something a little bit more to it than just a joke

Right. Mm -hmm. So there's that I mean, I think but you know, obviously people when it comes right down to it

They are gonna retreat to hey, I was just joking right or just quit taking everything. So seriously, you know line up or Whatever else and you can't really, you know judge the heart when it comes right down to it

And so there is that kind of basic problem, but but I mean I would

I would say that You know Satan's plan is at every single point to undermine everything that you see happening in Genesis, right?

So God like basically gave us the book of Genesis to tell us, you know, basic questions like who are we?

Why are we here? Where do we come from and where we're going, you know, all those basic worldview kind of questions

And so if you read Genesis then what you find is, you know God made us and he made a stink distinct from the animal.

He's given us dominion over the animals and so Like we're living in a society right now that you know, basically finds it more immoral for Joe Biden to experiment on puppies, right?

Cause them harm then to create a vaccine that is going to This Done with aborted humans and so Satan's plan is obviously to mix those things up So God says hey

We have dominion of the animals God's made us male and female and they told us to be fruitful and multiply In every single one of those components is being under attack under attack at every single conceivable level

And so, you know knowing that then essentially like if you're the girl who's saying hey, you know

I want to be married, but I can't so let me go out and buy a dog, right? Mm -hmm All right, well

Or you're the guy who's like, hey, I want someone to love me So I go and buy a dog and he's gonna love me more than any, you know

Woman is gonna do because women are crazy hard and all that right hard to get along with they look pretty but you know

It's just a lot of work and this is easy Like the problem is like you're what you're doing at that point like to answer your question

Is it like in terms of moral categories? This is sinful like what you're doing is you're

Fundamentally rejecting the reason God made you Right. It's like you're doing something like very similar to homosexuality

Like homosexuality is like rejecting the natural function of a woman in turning to a solid way shoot

To do what a woman is supposed to do, right? So what you're doing is you're rejecting the natural function of the woman and so you're doing something

Similar to that when you turn to an animal to Meet those basic needs for companionship that you're supposed to get through human beings.

Does that make sense? Mm -hmm So there's not fundamentally I guess just a difference of degree but not of type.

Does that make do you follow what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah, you mean when you when you say that you're you're just meaning

You know It's the same. It's the same exact Mistake that's being made.

It's just obviously not as bad or Yeah, maybe not as bad isn't the best way to say it.

Well, no, it's not I would say it's like Sodomy is much worse. Right, you know a couple putting a

T -shirt a t -shirt on the dog saying big sis, but it's the same basic error.

Okay like you are rejecting the natural function of An animal, right?

Rejecting a natural function of human companionship and trying to find an animal it's the same type of thing

It's just to a different degree of depravity. Does that make sense? Yeah, so if you're doing that, yes,

I think yes, that's obviously like you're Rebelling against God and a pretty high -handed way

But the problem is it's just like is it like in order to say to make that land or stick you have to do

Some sort of judging of a person's heart, you know where they can just retreat and say hey, you know And everyone does it's just like oh, yeah,

I know it's not a human being and whatever else and I you know, it's just You know, but it's

God's creation. We should care for them and everything else and I'm just I'm just joking, you know It's just all in good fun and everything else.

It's like yeah, okay, you know, but I just you know, you'll forgive me if I Don't believe you But the problem though is that you can't substantiate it like very easily, right?

Right, you're you're you're left with just okay. Well, all right if you say so, right, but If it looks like a dog and it smells like a dog and you know

Then it might be your wife. It might be your wife So is that is that helpful yeah, yeah, no and that kind of brings up another question, which is you know, obviously it seems like you're saying this is kind of a

When it when it comes to the way that we as a society

Treat animals. It's clearly wrong. But then in individual cases it gets a lot harder

To distinguish what is sin and what is not? So so that begs the question then, you know, what what how should we?

interact with our Christian brothers and sisters when They demonstrate this kind of behavior,

I know I know you mentioned earlier that you like to to mess mess with people and essentially, you know

Suggest eating eating the pet, you know Should we have similar responses?

in general to Christians who are who seem like they're treating their pets more than just Animals yeah.

Yeah, if you're not pushing back on it at all, then I would say you're probably part of the problem. Okay So like and you just don't even know it like you don't see it like you don't see it for what's what it is

And what's actually happening? So if you're not like aware of you know

Like the the issue then I think if you're aware of the issue then you're gonna have to be pushing back because I mean it's just so like Overwhelmingly obvious that you're living in a society right now that absolutely loves animals more than it loves humans

And it's trying to get from animals what it should be getting from humans And if you don't see it, then you're part of the problem.

Okay, and so I mean like Matt Walsh just had a you know a video on Listen to him from time to time just to see what pagan

Catholics like him say but The thing is it's like, you know, he was pointing out the inconsistency of everyone's sitting there losing their mind over you know

Fauci experimenting on the You know putting the little

Boxes over the dogs Head where they're being eaten alive by insects and they were outraged by that and incensed by that But then you've been creating a vaccine that is done through You know aborted baby parts and no one cares and you know the comments to him at that point we're just essentially to say like hey

You know, I love animal animals are way better than humans all the time And I mean at every famous like, you know animal death

So like her and be the monkey or whatever or the kid falls into the enclosure and they have to shoot the ape

You know, everyone is so like they're they're basically just like you read the comments and it's just like hey they you know

This is fundamentally immoral Like they're more concerned about the ape than they are about the kid, right?

Or you know when one of those circus guys, I don't know if it was Sigfried or word got Roy or whatever I can't remember who they were but they got eaten by the tiger and everyone was like, well, that's what you deserve, right?

Like we were living in a world right now that absolutely is Messed up as far as that goes and if you're not pushing back and against it all then

I think that you're probably part of The problem, okay Like if you're not trying to say hey, you know, aren't we getting a little crazy like why is it that I mean?

like I I know young women who would love to get married and They can't

But then everyone like they're you know, they will even tell you, you know, I can't you know

Like I'm just gonna go instead of get married and go buy a pet, you know I guess a big it's a big problem

And then you look at every young couple and it's just like instead of having kids They wait like three or four years and get a pet, you know

It's like this is an issue and if you don't see it, then you're blind like so I mean, I obviously I think we should be

Doing what we can to try to To say the obvious, you know as far as that goes but You know from the reactions

I've gotten as I've attempted to do that. I don't I don't think that Many people really realize like how big of a problem this is to be honest

Yeah, I think we should be pushing back so what What does that look like exactly though?

So, I mean, I know you're saying you you're making kind of like the the joke about it

It are there other responses that would be helpful in terms of pushing back against this idea in your mind

Well, I yeah, I mean, I think we should be having I mean I make jokes about it all the time. It's kind of preventative medicine it's what

I hope to be preventative medicine and actually it's just you know, making me wildly annoying to be around but But no,

I mean, you know when I see a young couple and it's like, you know, they go out and they buy the dog I I do ask him, you know, what?

Why the pet, you know, why not children? All right. Why aren't you trying to get married? You know, I have those why not get married, you know, why are you going to the animal with this, you know?

And I mean, I think that that's a valid question Like to to think through and to be asking people as far as that goes

And so yeah, I think there's a place for rebuking people. Hey, like what are you doing? You know, like what are you doing to your life?

Mm -hmm. I hear a young man who's a dicky porn and you can't stop, you know Self gratification and everything else and you go out and you buy a dog you think that's gonna help you, you know with your problem like Are you know,

I mean that I think there's plenty of Christians who you know Wish they could serve Lord and do things and be free but then you know, they're always having to find pet sitters and do everything else because their life is interrupted by this animal and so I think conversations need to be had

Out of curiosity When you ask those kind of questions, what's normally the answer that you get?

Yeah, I mean most people like no one's gonna say hey, yeah, I'm making an idol out of this I See what you're saying

Obviously, you know making an idol out of this I'm obviously, you know, I'm obviously trying to get from an animal

What I should be getting from humans. Thank you for telling me Tim I mean, I'm just so thankful that you you brought this up to me because I've never thought about that before You know, it's like that never happens

I Normally happens is it's like oh wait, no God gave us animals and so, you know, I mean come on, you know Like I know you you know, we shouldn't treat him like humans and all that But you know,

I can't get married right now. I want to be so, you know, I'm gonna get a pet, you know, so It's what it is, you know, it's just like yeah

Obviously, I shouldn't treat it like a husband, you know, so but But you know, yeah, maybe that's a danger that I might be

Looking to an animal for love when I should be, you know Dealing with what's actually going on my heart in a more healthy way, but no one seems to want to admit it obviously

So so I Mean we've talked about the difference between Or I mean, there's basically no difference between Christians and Non -believers when it comes to pets and essentially essentially what's kind of being said there as far as I can see there

There's really no pushback at all against the the way that Our society views animals at all.

There's pretty much no There's no voice out there that that is saying hey, maybe we're taking this a little bit too far here, right?

Missy any big -name theologians talking about it myself, right? I don't see anyone pushing back at it at all and that's what's so troubling about it

It's just like I know that like it's it's a huge issue It's like why don't people see it right and and the thought process here is, you know, essentially there's no one really

Speaking out against this at all and a lot of times When I see stuff like that I'll see stuff online you know like the post that I talked about at the beginning of the episode and and a lot of times the the response

To any objection that might be made about a post like this is it's what you're saying.

It's like the oh, well, obviously You know People don't actually think this way and and No one is crazy enough to actually call their dog their wife

And this guy must be kidding or if he's not kidding He's the only one out here saying that it's not it should be normal for him to be

You know sexually attracted to and and committed to for life

This dog that is now filling the role of his wife or at least attempting to feel fill the role of his wife so Here's why

I think that is I can tell you why I think it is So is that is that where you're going with it?

You're going well well I'm basically I'm I'm basically wanting to ask you know if no one's if no one's stopping if no one's stopping this and The the response is always like well, this isn't normal and and normal people don't think this way

But then the reality is I mean doesn't it seem like it's kind of inevitable

That if there's nothing there to stop it it eventually is just gonna go there, right?

Well, yeah, I think yeah, and that's kind of but I I think what's happening is we've we've accepted an idea of a pet and That leaves us

Like in a thoughtless way To where that leaves us to where we don't really know how to interact with what's happening

Mm -hmm. So what I mean by that is I think that the idea of a pet in of itself is

Inherently problematic Now when you say that I think that sounds extreme

But you have to give me a few minutes to explain what I'm saying But I mean, I think the idea of a pet itself is inherently problematic.

Okay? now if that's the case then Like I don't think people have like stopped to consider what a pet actually is

We've just accepted that that's fine, right? There's no biblical command that says thou shalt not have a pet or something like that, right?

but then there's like the idea of a pet itself, I'm trying to say I think that there's problems with the very idea of a pet and so if you accept that then you really don't have any way of like stopping all

The problems that we've talked about. Okay, so I was trying to figure out What is a pet and it's a very simple thing to do is because like all you do is just look up dictionaries pet, right?

Mm -hmm. And so I so a pet, you know, obviously is a distinct category of animal care over and against different types of animals but like you look up pet in the

Cambridge dictionary and what you're gonna see is a pet is an animal that's kept in a home as a companion and treated kindly

Right All right. So dictionary .com any domesticated or tame animal that's kept as a companion and cared for Affectionately, so those two definitions you think about that and you think whoa, like there's a lot in that Definition that you might not have thought about right?

Mm -hmm like an animal that is kept in a home as a companion now

Merriam -webster gave a different aspect of a pet and Merriam -webster basically says a domesticated animal kept for pleasure

Rather than utility. Okay. Mm -hmm And so if you try to simplify what you just what

I just read in two ways It seems like in common usage a pet is to to is one of two things

One it's an animal companion, right? Mm -hmm Or it too is a domesticated like a tame animal kept for pleasure rather than utility

So what that's meaning is it's like an animal distinct from a horse So you have a horse right and a horse has a purpose.

It's as it's useful in certain ways It's gonna be a mode of transportation that will drive you around I mean typically people they may name their horse, but they no one typically considers a horse a family member, right?

Right because the horse doesn't live inside your house and you don't treat him as a family member and you don't Yeah, you know you could imagine plenty of Westerns where the guy gets attached to the horse because you know

They've been everywhere together and all that and the horse has learned How to be ridden by him

And you know, it's like, you know, but I mean most of the time the cowboy when he loses a horse He you know curses and says

I lost a good horse, you know But he's not grieving as if he just lost a family member, right?

Mm -hmm And the same kind of thing but then like a cow is kind of you know You don't keep the cow in the house. It'll destroy the house as far as that goes

And you most of the time you don't name them You may want to name them like hamburger or something like that But if you're smart, you don't try to name the thing and you know, treat it like a family member

But like, you know a horse has a certain utility Cow has a utility you can get meat or you know

Milk or hide from it Chickens have certain utilities, but no one would you know fall in love with their chicken really, right?

Hopefully not. Hopefully not I guess you can't really count anything out at this point.

Well, I think I Remember hearing a story about that, but I'm not gonna talk about but but Anyways, so but I think like the point though is that the idea of a pet is in some ways it seems to be like the product of I'm just making a generalization.

It seems to that we've done wonders with breeding animals to the point where we've

Domesticated like the modern dog in the modern cat, right? So in the Bible like dogs were like scary

Like beware of the dogs beware of the mutilated mutilation right like you read that in the Bible and you don't think oh, man

Like nice, you know puppy at home man's best friend man's best friend. You don't think that you think pack of wild dogs

It's gonna eat you right? And that sheds a little bit of light on Lazarus laying there and having a source like by the dogs like these weren't like puppies

These were like wild animals that were Licking a source like this is not a good happy nice picture.

This was something else, right? as far as that goes, but so I think one of the things that we've done is we've attempted to like breed the wildness out of dogs and cats and everything else and To the point where I mean largely

We've done an okay job of it and now I mean, you know There's still stories of like woman goes jogging with two pitbulls who gets eaten by her pitbulls or whatever else, right?

Like and I mean, there's plenty of dogs that I've been at, you know Where they're sitting there barking at you and growling at you and they're you know

Idiot owner doesn't realize that you're about to get eaten by this animal, you know, oh, they're nice, you know They're nice and they're friendly.

It's like yeah. Okay. Well, can you put them up please? Because It seems like I'm about to get eaten, you know, and then if I try to defend myself

You're gonna be mortally offended, you know by this thing here, but anyway, so but the point though is just to say

I think the idea of a pet in general is an animal that is either Viewed as a companion companion or an animal with no functional utility.

That's just there for pleasure, right? Mm -hmm and like the first part of that an animal kept as a companion

Like that seems to me to be fundamentally wrong In the way that we've just described, right?

Like if you're looking to an animal to be your companion The problem is that God doesn't want you to find companionship among the animals like that's why he said

Adam was alone in the garden While all the animals existed in the world, right?

And then he tells man to find companionship with humans not with animals He says, you know, it's not good for you to be alone

I'm gonna make you a helper and then you know Go get married have babies right fill the earth full of people Fill them and then you know there's a restatement of that in the

New Covenant where you fill the world up full of disciples and you're told you know, God's building a church and then you're told to admonish one another correct one another exhort one another

Another great one another welcome one another like you're you're supposed to look for this idea of companionship or fellowship or Cornelia in the

Greek And you know in terms of the New Testament you're looking for that with people not with animals And so like what

I'm trying to say is like it seems like the air idea of a pet fundamentally is an attempt to reverse that most often okay, mm -hmm

Or you know, it could be in a simple way if you're just you know, if you're not going with Cambridge dictionary dictionary comm

You go with Merriam -webster and it's just like well, it's that animal that's been tamed and kept for pleasure rather than utility, right?

Mm -hmm And so like it seems to me that like that what I'm trying to say is the idea of a pet is inherently

Problematic and of itself now if the idea of a pet is inherently problematic If like you're looking for a pet to be a companion right and not just Something that's just like oh look at that.

That's pretty neat God's creation right there, you know And we get to enjoy seeing all its funny little things and everything else.

You're just pure pleasure not companionship at all But but I think that that idea though more closely is the companion idea

And I mean, that's why my son said hey, you know, we got a new member of the family with the lizard, right? It's because it like the most natural idea of a pet is an animal companion

And I think that that's you know, so but then basically if you if you if you if you say, okay This animal is a companion, right?

right Then like you've you've lost the whole argument at that point because then it's just a well like yes

Like it's okay for them to be companions. So long as they're not too close, you know And so you don't have any way to push against anything that just Happened because you accept the idea of a companion animal as normative and then

I would just push back and say hey, wait a minute Is that normal? Right. Mm -hmm. Is that like are you doing something fundamentally flawed there by looking at them as companion?

And then what would it look like for you to say? Hey, like they're not a companion at all Wouldn't you have to be proactively telling yourself?

This is not a companion. This is not a companion I don't need to treat him like a companion. This is simply just an animal for pleasure, right?

Mm -hmm Or like some kind of function, you know, like it's a guard dog. I'm a single woman, you know

No one will marry me because all these guys are crazy and failed in the launch and you know everything else and so I need some sort of protection and everything else so You know

Strain relations family, whatever get a dog. Okay without waiting into all that. It's a guard dog, you know, it's like, okay

Well fine. It's your guard dog. Are you gonna cry and have a funeral for it when it dies? Really, you know,

I mean so, I mean, but I imagine there's a type of redneck that probably would you know, it's like Oh, it's my guard dog, you know, whatever

Well, it's got rabies time to go put it down, you know On to the next one on the next one, you know, that was a good cattle herding dog, you know

But anything but but yeah, no, so I think we've accepted the longer it is short of it is I think we've accepted that fundamental contradictions like The idea of a pet itself and so then basically

Like that's why no one's speaking out against it because we just don't know how to like we just you know What you you know start down the dark path forever will dominate your destiny essentially

So, okay So are you essentially saying in no way shape or form?

Is it really? A good idea to ever have an animal in your house

Unless unless it's meant to perform some sort of like service for your family or something you know, like the guard dog or or Maybe you get like the you live on the farm and you get the cat that Yeah, let me make sure

I understood so you're saying am I saying in no way shape or form Is it okay to have an animal in the home unless it has some sort of specific like utility or function?

Yeah, yeah, like unless it has some form of you know use Essentially Or or I guess like maybe

I know you had you had said somewhere in your answer that you might could get away with the you know

The animal is providing some form of pleasure now Obviously, we're not talking about pleasure in the same way the guy that posted the pictures probably talking about pleasure

But but you know some form of Oh, well, you know joy, and you know, look at God's creation kind of thing.

We can observe it up close It you know, are those kind of is that essentially what you're saying?

Like hey, those are the only acceptable times to really ever have an animal in your house and ever call it a pet

Yeah I understand what you're saying. I I think it's I don't

I guess there's two kind of questions there One is like can the animals go in your home period right? Right and then two

If they are then, you know, should it only be for like utility or you know?

Joy or something like that And I would just you know, I would just say, you know, is it it it's not intuitively obvious to me that most

Animals are even really Good house guests, right? I mean most I mean

Most homes I go in with animals in there. I mean like they look like a barn. They smell like a barn You know, you get hair all over yourself,

I mean it stinks and You know, if you're not accustomed to the smell it's it can be

I mean it it's like they tear up your house like there's many animals out there that don't just you know without significant training tear up your house and Like most people are not like demonstrably good animal trainers, right?

It's just a reality just just like I'm you know Not saying anything shocking. It's just like they tear up your homes like they tear up your homes.

They make it home home smell like barns and kennels and As far as that goes,

I mean like that worst case, you know, they yeah, well Best case scenario, you know, they tear up your furniture and you know, make everything smell worst case scenario

You start to get fleas or ticks on yourself by living with them Or you know worse they start attacking you or biting you or you know

You or one of your kids or or a guest or whatever else? I mean, I don't know that they're they often excel at hospitality

I don't know that people who you know don't like animals typically like going into a home and having an animal jump all over them and you know scratch up their clothes and you know, everything else and you know,

I I Was doing a job at a house recently and the dog comes up there and sniffs my butt, you know

This is not my thing here, you know Barking up the wrong tree

Don't nobody go there, you know Put their face there, you know get away, you know, but I mean so they don't make

I saw I mean I think it's it's like you sound practical level. I don't you know, give you allergies, you know, it's just like it it

If you want to have a nice hospitable home, it's not like really all that wonderful, you know way to do it, but then

Biblically, so that's just pragmatic answer to the question, but then biblically speaking You know,

I do think like if you are going to have an animal in your home then

You have to like be very diligent to be telling yourself that this is not a companion, right?

This is not a companion. So I'm not using Cambridge Dictionary definition of pet or dictionary .com

definition of pet. This is not my animal companion Like I'm man was not made to find companionship among the animals.

This is simply a Domesticated animal kept for pleasure, right?

Mm -hmm, but then I would say that, you know in 99 .999 percent of the cases

People aren't able to keep that distinction in their mind, right, right I don't think

I think they're fundamentally failing at it because the idea of a pet in and of itself is just training you to treat them as a companion and I don't think most people have the intellectual or Moral Kind of fortitude necessary to You know treat something bring something into your home like that and not

Emotionally tie yourself to it as a family member really. Mm -hmm Particularly with all the influences out there that are just training us to do that very thing, you know

I don't see anyone. I don't see many people successful it, you know, right

So and I think you would be successful at it. If like if you could like if the dog died and you don't cry

Right, you go get a new guard dog, I would say you probably won Mm -hmm, you know,

I think you probably did it well, but I don't know that many people I don't know anyone who does that Right, right.

In fact, I mean we're you know, your dog dies and you send out a you know Social media message asking everyone to pray for you and you know, you're grieving this, you know bad or worse as you would you

Know if a human being died and like that, I don't think that's like I think that's not

Whatever that is, that's not godly grief, right that reminds me of a time

I think I think my wife was out of town and it was just me here and we have one cat and For whatever reason

I had left the window open in our kitchen and we live up on the second story of a building

That's really tall. So the second story is actually much higher than a normal Second story would be

I think and and So I had this window open and I was off doing

I don't know if I was cleaning or what I was doing but I heard something not get knocked over by the window and my my immediate thought was my stupid cat

Just like fell out of the window To and probably to his death and I and then my

I mean my only thought was just simply What a stupid cat There there was like he's probably dead or if he's not dead

There's no saving him at all. Not that I would want to try anyway, and And so it's just like well, he's gone now

Whatever I guess I guess now it's time to make a pair of gloves out of them or something.

What's left of his fur? Oh Okay, so I guess that's a good transition

I mean I don't I'm not trying to say that there's like You know Bible says a righteous man cares even for his animals

And I don't know that I think anytime and even an animal dies like I think it should be a reminder to us that like sin has entered into the world and death is

Result of sin and right death is an enemy and and so I think that there's a kind of you know

Sadness that is appropriate to something like that to where It's a kind of sadness to say hey, you know, like this is the result of our sins, right?

and one day God's gonna come back and set everything right and fix it all and Everything else and so just kind of like I'm not advocating for you know you know a little kid with a magnifying glass like Burning the ant up and glee or delight or something like that because it's just you know worthless garbage

It's like well, no, these are creatures that have the breath of life in them, too And they're affected by you know, human beings moral decisions but I think the kind of sadness there should be a moral sadness that is just like It's a reminder of you know, the sinfulness of human beings and but I don't think it should be this extended overpowering, you know

Grieving, you know, that would be appropriate to human being. I mean, that's just totally inappropriate You know in those moments and if you have let yourself get that attached it is because you were looking to the animal to do something more than just be a source of enjoyment and And or have some sort of utility or you know function or value

I mean, you know if you're I mean It might be that you know

You're the little girl on the farm and you know Every time that cow gets slaughtered you you know cry because you're a sensitive soul or whatever else and you can't help your emotions or something

But that's kind of a childish thing that you should grow out of right? That shouldn't be characteristic of adults, you know what

I mean? Like that's something that hopefully you grow out of and it's it's endearing in a certain way, but like it's

You know, it's not healthy for adults to behave that way Like as far as that goes, you know

So, I mean if you're driving your car down the road and you hit a deer, I mean, I think Unless you're like just you know have no sensitivity whatsoever.

It's like oh, well, you know, I got what he was got He got what he? Had coming, you know, it's like oh, that's kind of sadistic.

All right, that's a little weird Yeah, but I mean like just to sit there and you know cry like a baby for you know

Three weeks about the deer, you know, it's like something happened like what's going on, you know, like there's bigger problems there then

Everything else but yeah, so but yeah, no, I if if a person is able to you know lose a pet and Not be reduced to a blubbering mess for weeks and weeks and weeks

I would say that maybe they figured out how to do it. Well, but I just don't see many examples of that. Uh -huh Because I think the idea of a pet itself is problematic

Well, I think that leads me into the next question pretty well which is essentially You mentioned earlier.

I Can't remember who it was But talking it was okay.

Yeah Fauci testing on the dogs or whatever and people were

More upset about that than about Abortion, right? They're more upset about testing on dogs than they are about baby murder and and You know, obviously

I think for I think for Christians my experience with Christians when it comes to what

I'm about to ask is essentially They all cut at the

Christians kind of have this response when it comes to like watching movies for example you watch movies and there's the the human characters and then oftentimes there will be like the the family dog that's in the movie or or whatever it is the the animal that's tagging along and a lot my experience with people is whenever we whenever we watch those kinds of movies

The response is normally something along the lines of I was more sad when the dog died

Than then when the human characters died and this is this is so this is so kind of universal in terms of People thinking that way that there's even websites.

I don't know if you know this but there's websites That you can go to when you're gonna watch a movie that essentially there

They'll tell you if the dog dies, right? So, I mean there's one I think it's literally called does the dog die and it's it's a website dedicated to telling you

Hey you know it's because you've rejected the function of human beings and you're looking for that an animal and the fact that you like the

Very act of looking for companionship in an animal is an act of despising human beings

Itself, right? Mm -hmm. I mean, that's what you're doing. So just like, you know, like a sodomite looking

To a man to find what he should be finding in a woman He's that very act is training him to despise women, right?

And like that's why you know sodomites they like they hate kids, right?

Like they hate kids like like over and over again I think they just like kids are inconvenient and blah blah blah blah blah and you know

You know, it's like it's because they're like the very act of that is like despising, you know

Children and women in a certain way and when you're looking to pet for companionship instead of a human being that very act of Turning to an animal for that is an act of despising human beings.

So that's why you have that. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah, and that's essentially what I was gonna ask is why are people this way where you know, you watch

John wick The guy Is his dog his dog gets gets, you know quote -unquote murdered in the beginning of the movie and then he goes on a

Mass murder shooting spree essentially now, I guess you maybe maybe somehow you could try and justify his killing of Definitely in the like killing hundreds of people probably in the for I've I haven't watched how many

I haven't counted how many people He kills in the first movie alone, but surely it's over a hundred people that he kills because his dog dies

Maybe you can justify it a little bit and saying that well look His wife gave him the dog and then she died and the dog was the only thing he had left

To remember her by or whatever, but then still you can't go on a murder spree because the dog died

I Think I think that's essentially why though is it that the act itself of looking to an animal?

For that is an act of despising Despising human beings right fundamentally, right?

I mean, you know, that's the whole thing I mean like, you know, like a girl goes into lesbianism or whatever else it's like it's an act of hatred for men and it's no shock that she hates men and Like doesn't want anything to do with them because it's a it's a rejection of men right in that way or the sodomite is a rejection of women and Offspring and children like it's a rejection of those kind of things and when you're looking to an animal

I mean, there's there's that's what people are doing, you know, instead of getting married They're looking to an animal for that and like when you feed that you feed your effects

You put all your affections all the stuff you're supposed to be putting into a human, right? Mm -hmm all these like emotions and you're tying it now to an animal you're doing violence to your relationship between You and other human beings like you're making yourself a less healthy person

Like in terms of emotionally and mentally and everything else. That's what you're doing, you know

And so then that's why people react it like the way that they react is because like this thing was their replacement human, right?

Mm -hmm and So like they're taking all that stuff and they're putting it into This dog this animal and that's why they despise human beings and it shows up, you know and that's why you have all the like the things you're talking about like And that's why we care so much about it.

And so it's because the act itself is a rejection of humanity Mm -hmm fundamentally now.

I have seen some people who who? When you bring up like the the movie and the dog dies or whatever or you see the

The news article where you know, all the the family dies and the dog was with them and the dog died too or something

I have seen some people argue Well, hey the reason it's more sad

That the animal died is because the animals essentially Defenseless like normally we

I think we view animals as kind of morally good as you know, especially The pet golden the family golden retriever, right?

And so some people argue In terms of like you can beat a dog and the dog will still come back and yeah

Right, right. So Yeah, so that's obviously so that must make it

More sad, you know because essentially the dog is somehow more of a victim Than the human was so so what's your response to that kind of?

objection Sure, I mean I I think you know, you look at an objection like that and essentially

I think might the other explanation is essentially what's happening on a fundamental level but then that would be just I think that kind of objection has a long history of Training to get us to that point.

So I mean you watch Bambi or something like that and You know, you're greeted with the ominous words, you know

Man has entered into the forest and we've had like years and years and years of training to Essentially Train us that like human beings have no place in the natural order essentially that we're seen as an intrusion and so Like, you know movies like Bambi or you know avatar or that kind of stuff

Like we're trained to think that man is an interruption into the natural order itself and so like The natural order itself is fundamentally kind of like this good thing

And this is kind of where the natural path movement goes as well So the nature is deified nature is seen as like good right and then by virtue by extension animal

You know all like how many times you've heard people talk about, you know animal seek to live in harmony You know as far as that goes and you know, then human beings like we mess everything up You know consumeristic materialistic

Westerners who you know with capitalism and all that kind of stuff, right? and so yeah, but the problem with that though is the

Bible says that the Creation itself is subjected to futility, you know and like the creation itself is fundamentally broken

Now it's broken on account of human being sin, but it's broken And so like there is no

You know, you have all these animal rights advocate Advocates who are you know, weeping over the death of Tigers, you know in these third world countries

That are getting shot by these hunters, but then like the people on the ground are like getting eaten by these

Tigers, you know Because the natural world is set in opposition and hostile to us at fundamentally every way

I mean, that's why the Bible describes like false prophets as brute beast who are made to be caught and destroyed like animals

Like there's a fundamental disharmony that was introduced With the fall meaning like there's a war against the offspring of the serpents and the offspring of the woman, right?

Now like that has a spiritual parallel But it also has a physical parallel in that the national natural order is set against us in hostility to us

I mean bears are trying to kill you, you know tigers are trying to kill you snakes are trying to kill you Alligators are trying to kill you right and like now

I think in you know After years and years and years of effort we managed to domesticate a few animals, right?

But not many Like you're not gonna domesticate a raccoon or a possum or you know, well anything some people some people want to do that Well, I'm not saying it

Well, you'll probably have a video of people doing it eventually But I'm just trying to say that like you just look at you know, there's horror stories of like You know

The hippies living with the commune of lions who are getting attacked every day, you know to make the movie and all that and you know

That's been covered up but I mean like the thing is like we are fundamentally at war with the with Animals in a way that only will really truly be resolved when when

Christ returns and so now with like animals I think we've kind of trained through, you know genetic engineering in many many years certain breeds of dogs to Be compliant in Dormat kind of dogs, right?

Mm -hmm, but then there's for any for any of those stories. There's still Plenty of other stories of the two pitbulls eat the jogger, you know

Or the old man getting eaten by his household of dogs when he comes home, you know after not feeding them for long enough you know, and so like the thing is

I mean like You know there there is a fundamental disharmony between man and animal that maybe we resolve in certain ways

Maybe we don't but like there's more going on than just like oh, these are innocent animals, right?

I mean like if you think about like the behavior of animals, I mean, they're fundamentally immoral by human standards, right?

I Like the male lion comes into the pride, you know Kills the old guy, you know

Takes all the ladies for himself and then like kills off all the little baby lion offspring in order to you know

Like that's like fundamentally immoral But the thing is like there is a truth that like morality doesn't even apply to the animal kingdom because it's only a human concept

You know, so if you're thinking about it that way, it's like this is inapplicable anyways, right?

Like Meaning like you can't hold like an animal to human standards is fundamentally a contradiction in terms more morally speaking anyways, right?

Right. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah When you were giving that explanation it reminded me of this video that I watched a long time ago

Where like I guess I don't know if it was a You know a documentary or what it was but it was very graphic it was

These hyenas were chasing a gazelle, right?

And they they catch the gazelle and they They I mean just start tearing the gazelle apart and it's extremely graphic You're seeing everything and then all of a sudden you realize that this gazelle was pregnant and they rip out the you know

Like baby gazelle or whatever you call them before they're born and No, this must have been this must have been online

Yeah, yeah because it was it was graphic it was very graphic Yeah, I wasn't ready for that.

But I think it was online somewhere like maybe I saw it on reddit or something I'm not sure but all the comments were like this is so sad.

I can't believe this Whatever happened in the wild, you know, but then you think about that juxtaposed to What we are doing as a society, you know, you're you're murdering 60 million babies

You know in the womb there they never get to be born or really have a chance at the life that God's given them and then

Most people aren't even batting an eye at it. So there's obviously a clear difference in terms of I Mean a disturbing

Disturbing difference What's interesting about that also is that You know that kind of thing only makes sense in the

Christian worldview, right? so Meaning like if you have an evolutionary worldview then obviously like the hyenas are doing what hyenas are doing is survival right and it's right and if we're just like advanced animals then

Where is the outrage for the puppy being experimented on where is the outrage of you know?

Human beings putting animals in cages and dominating them and you know using them for food and everything else

It's like it's like the animals aren't following these rules like they're like there are carnivore animals.

And so, you know, what? Where's the outrage coming from? It doesn't come from an evolutionary worldview

It like I have an illusionary worldview basically says if might makes right, right? So if we if we're stronger than them, we're smarter than them, you know

They do just as bad to each other as what you think we're doing. So right problem, right, right?

I don't I don't know why I don't remember what you said that made me think about that but I was just like this is such a strange

Lying coming into the line coming. It must have been it must have been that But I guess all guys taking all the women and you know, whatever but I guess that leads me to the the

Last few questions, which are all kind of coming from the same vein you know when you think about It seems like the

Bible really Really is trying to tell us that Especially and especially in Genesis that God has given us the animals to help us and and Serve us and be subjugated to us and and you know in an agricultural society that mainly looks like you know, you have you have the oxen that are plowing your fields and you probably maybe you have horses or or in the

Middle East camels that You we use or donkeys that we use for transportation and you know, they have a lot of different farm applications but then we obviously don't really live in that same society and and even even when it comes to people who have

Based their livelihood in agriculture. We we're so advanced at this point that oftentimes you have giant

Factors giant. Yeah giant machines that are that are doing all of this work it much more efficiently than animals ever could

So we've we've begun to find other uses for animals and you know a lot of times it's things like hey, you put you put

Shamu and the Cade or in the Enclosure at SeaWorld or you put the the polar bear in the zoo, you know in Birmingham, Alabama Or whatever it is, or you test, you know new makeups or medications on animals to see if they're safe for humans, so You know a lot of our a lot of our conversation has been about hey, we don't need to We've taken our care for animals far beyond whatever it was supposed to be

I mean, we're so far past the line that it's it's crazy is we're trying to marry a dog we're trying to marry our dog, right and So that but that does beg the question, you know

We've taken it this far are these are these new uses that we've that we found

For animals, are they are they acceptable uses should we be?

Should we be upset, you know when it comes to the Fauci thing, should we be should we be upset, you know?

at least to a much lesser degree than The the baby murder

That's going on to try and come up with a with an antidote to Covid -19 should we be less upset but still upset or should we not care at all that that that those kinds of things are

Taking place. What should our view as Christians be who understand that God has

He's subjugated the world to us But then he's also he's also entrusted us with you know, keeping it and taking care of it sure

Yeah, and I don't I don't know that it seems like there's so many questions at that point then I don't know that I'm gonna be able to unravel the quick way, but like in terms of just Some You know,

I think I could probably come up with 20 different questions or ways to go about trying to answer all that but I think

Maybe you could talk about different eschatologies at this point to try to get at some of that.

So It seems like the eschatology of avatar essentially is to say that you know

The salvation of the earth is going to be found by basically getting rid of all the humans and letting nature be like By itself in its raw form, right?

So there's an eschatology like that that essentially the human being is the intrusion upon the natural order and Basically every like it like human being has no place in the natural order it by itself is a good

That needs to be left alone. And the only way like the logic of that ultimately is the humans must die, right?

Mm -hmm. And I mean that's like the plot of you know, movie after movie after movie is that you know

We've intruded upon this and we just like basically logic is we just gotta go, right? So that everything could be healed, right, right

It's a you have like a eschatology that has no human being involvement in that, right?

And then I think on the opposite extreme you have like an eschatology that has no place for animals, you know and basically just in a simplistic way says says that all animals are just made to be caught and destroyed right and Disposed of and so they're not human beings.

And so then you have an eschatology. That's just totally, you know, only humans Right, no place for animals, right?

Kind of thing and it seems like that. There's some kind of Middle -ground thing. I mean not necessarily middle -of -the -road position, but there's some way to say hey

Human beings are part of the natural order, right? They're not an intrusion upon it

But then animals are also part of the natural order in a way that God designed and I would say that you know

God has pit the two of us against each other because of the fall and there's some things that may never be resolved this side

Of you know, the Lord's return Like the bears are you might always you know eat you

Right, I mean there are predators who will just kill you if they can and like that There may be no way to wreck like you may never tame the hyena pack, you know

And if you try, you know your kid might I mean I remember a story of you know person keeping exotic pet as a pet or whatever in the

I Think the leopard came and you know bit the baby's arm off, you know

And I think that there's like there's there's a war there that's going on and but then the thing is got so I think like That the fall has introduced difficulties between animals and humans

That may not be overcome in this life So that it may be that every time you see a tiger the appropriate thing to do is shoot it.

You know what I mean? Like because it's made to become destroyed and it's gonna it's either you or him and God Values your life more than his because you're made in his image, right?

But then so so I think you know, I think God's designed the world in such a way that you know all the animals have their part and we're supposed to use our wisdom and intelligent to figure out how to Trust that he had a purpose with them, right?

And I mean, I think you could think about how ecosystems actually work And it's just like if you kill off all of one animal than the other animal grows

You know out of control and then there's problems that are introduced and so, you know Just coming in there and thoughtlessly removing

God's creation isn't just an answer and at the same time though worshiping You know the creation and and basically elevating them and status or dignity above you

It leads to its own share of problems as well, right? And so God's given it given us dominion over like we're more important more intrinsically valuable than this aspect of its creation

But then there's a distinction, but so it's like hey We're more valuable than animals within animals have more dignity because they have the breath of God in them than a tree, right?

You know and maybe a tree has a little more value than a rock, you know Okay, like there's a hierarchy of things but then you know, so I don't think we should just thoughtlessly, you know

You know just thoughtlessly without any wisdom just destroy every animal you come across but if I see any bugs in my house

They're all dying, you know, you know Or if there's any predators in my backyard, they're gone.

They're dead. You know what I mean? like that's the way it works and so but Yeah, so yeah,

I don't know that there's a simple answer to that other than just to say I mean, I mean and that's part of an answer that is just to say that You know

We have to be wise and you know And the Bible says a righteous man cares even for his animals and you know

We're living in a society right now that machines can do a lot of the work that animal can do Animals can do and so, you know like putting them in a zoo or like preserving them and keeping them around It's something that we can marvel at and say hey, isn't

God God's creation unique and something be enjoyed I don't think there's anything wrong with that You know if you have that choice over just you know, kill all the

Tigers off or put them in a zoo, you know I think yeah, I mean That is doing something good but then

You know, if you're living in a third world country where you're being raided by the Tigers, I think you're gonna want to die, you know Yeah All right.

So there's that but now now should you experiment on them? I mean, I think there's something sadistic about the kind of kid who's like, you know they're on the cat off of the

Throwing the cat off of the roof just to see if he always it's gonna fall on his foot, you know feet, you know

That kind of thing. I think that you're showing, you know, despising God's creation and just you know

Causing it needless harm is not Helpful in any respect and so I think that is showing contempt for Something that God made for a purpose and if you don't know what the purpose is, you might want to be

Cautious in what you're doing, you know As far as that goes and you know the wrath of man doesn't produce the righteousness of God requires taking out your temper on a dog or taking your temper out on a

You know on your donkey if it's preventing you from going where you want because I ain't you with the flaming swords in your way

You know like that's not Good thing, right, right But you know whether or not it's okay to experiment on animals or issues of factory farming and that kind of stuff

I would say that If the you know PETA had its way, you know

Humans would be dead and the animals be alive and we feed, you know more people over the world because of you know some of these

Techniques that are considered inhumane. So I Think an animal is worthy of dignity, but it's not worthy of a big kind of dignity that humans worthy of Okay, so And you know,

I don't know that every pet I don't know that every animal deserves his own backyard with a You know its own air conditioned pet dog house or something like that Yeah, so Okay now

I think that there's ways that you can just be unnecessarily cruel to your food, you know and It that's worthy of more extended discussion than this, you know, but then at the same time, you know

Ultimately animals are part of the creation that we have dominion over that You know, you're living in a human centered world.

Not a animal centered world, too, right? But any follow -ups you want to ask on that?

Yeah. Yeah um, I guess the first one is would wouldn't you say that when it comes to the person who is

You know, like the the kid who throws the cat off the roof 12 times to see how many times the cat lands on its feet.

I mean, wouldn't wouldn't you say a part of that is That must inform

That must inform an observer in terms of how highly they would view human life as Well, right.

I mean if they're if if they value an animal so little that they would just Pick it up and throw it off the roof for no other reason than just to see what happens

Isn't it like a rational thing to say? What what's stopping this person from taking that farther?

Yeah, I think so. I mean, I think I Think so to some degree.

I don't mean that in terms of you know Obviously the animal is as valuable as a human therefore

If they're if they're willing to do it to the animal they're willing to do it to a human I mean it more in terms of in terms of You know,

I think it could be like progressively, you know pushing the boundaries more and more and more

Yeah, I think it could be that you're yeah, obviously a kind of kid doing that kind of thing

Might be a serial killer in the making right just enjoys Causing things harm perhaps, you know, like I wouldn't want to I would

I mean it and it might just be that he's I mean

I Wouldn't necessarily say that like I mean kids like destroy everything, right, right?

So like they tear up their toys, you know go over their friends house and tear up everything and just you know, they don't you have to kind of train them to Like take care of things in general, but then

I wouldn't say okay. Yeah, you know you poke holes holes and you're you know Your friend's wall with a stick or something, right?

like it well, that's just You know psychopathic, you know contempt for things that's gonna lead you to be a serial killer.

I mean it may you know, but But I mean, I think yeah, I think I think you know, there might be in a lot of cases that kind of Correlation though to right but then the problem is like the animal rights people

You know, they look at things like like they They don't have any like there is a difference between the animal and the human right?

And so it's like hey if you shoot the deer for food, aren't you causing them pain and aren't you killing their life?

Yes, and are you doing it? So in order to eat? Yes, you know, it's like why are you training yourself to be a cannibal?

Well, no, right Now I'm treading myself to like a deer burger

The classic gateway drug to cannibalism Right Yeah, I think that I think though when you do show that level of like callous contempt for God's creation you're doing something

That's fundamentally Immoral, you know and you when you despise

God like that, why would you have any respect for people? Sure Yeah, so the next one is

I guess just more pointedly asking, you know when it when it comes to like the Test testing stuff on animals for example testing medicine on animals to see if it's safe for humans where where exactly does that typically fall in terms of The morality of it.

I mean is it is it a scenario where you say? Well, hey look the options are either we test it on animals or we don't test it at all and possibly risk unnecessary human death or is or is it a conversation maybe more along the lines of there's got to be some other way to Think you know

Try and figure out the safety of these types of drugs or or maybe even worse for some people listening you know,

I know they I know they test like makeup and stuff on animals and and that's obviously not nearly as as crucial a

An endeavor it's not as certainly Like we don't need makeup, right?

We just we just like to use makeup. So is that really justifiable more?

Morally in terms of testing those kinds of things on animals medicine and and makeup as the examples

Yeah with the idea of is it okay to experiment on animals or you know

Makeup testing makeup on animals that sort of question It seems that there's several kinds of passages in the

Bible that you want to try to harmonize So you want to harmonize the proverb which tells us that a righteous man is good even to his animals and so it seems that a righteous man won't seek to cause animals unnecessary harm

But then at the same time there's a whole another set of passages that say like 2nd

Peter 2 12 that describe Animals in this way, but the they're compared to false prophets and it says these like irrational animals creatures of instinct

Born to be caught and destroyed You know because of the effects of sin

You have a whole category of predators that are put into the world Just simply to be an obstacle to humans that you know

If you were living during the time where dinosaurs existed you you're gonna you see an animal It's either you or them and because you're made in the image of God your life is more valuable than them

So there's not some, you know universal prohibition against causing animals pain Period in fact some animals need a good killing essentially.

That's the point and so That's true But I mean, you know how

God has given you know in the creation mandate and and as it's restated with Noah God's given us animals for food.

And so so one of the things to realize is that in order to Eat an animal you're gonna have to kill it and you're gonna have to cause it pain

And so that you can't just say in some simplistic way that any attempt to cause an animal pain is morally wrong

I think you're gonna Not want to cause it unnecessary pain, but then Nature of this question is that we're trying to answer the question.

What is necessary pain and what isn't right? so That's essentially what we're trying to get at now.

I think in the Bible if you think about the idea of the scapegoat in the

Old Covenant or the where the sins of the people are put on the on the goat and it's you know driven out of the

City or like the idea of sacrificial lambs God has instituted that You know, you have animals that were killed whether birds or lambs

In order to become a substitute for Humans to protect them from death.

It seems that you have a principle in those kind of examples that would mean that Causing an animal pain in order to prevent to mitigate the effects of the fall for human beings in some way

There is some precedent for that in the Bible. So it doesn't seem to me that in some sort of simplistic way you can

Articulate that it would be morally wrong for an animal to take the place of a human Like their life as a substitute for the humans life

So it seems like some saying that some sort of simplistic way would be Not faithful to what the

Bible is teaching. So it does seem that there is at least some category of Animal testing that could be put into that category

That would be morally permissible as far as that goes for me now, I Think there's obviously different types of testing that you could do on animals.

I don't I brought up the Fauci situation where he's Putting you know dogs heads inside these little enclosures and insects are eating them while they're alive that sort of thing or you know, even

I've seen like disturbing videos of you know, I Think Chinese people basically

Boiling a dog while it's still alive in a pot and I just I think that Seems to me.

I'm not disturbed by the fact that they're eating it I'm disturbed by the fact that they're boiling to death in a pot while it's still alive.

And so I think you know not all animal testing is equal and There are

Nazi kind of experiments that you could do on an animal, you know Just you can get the tiger and well, it's a creature made to be caught and destroyed

And so let's see how many arms it can cut off before it dies kind of experiments that hey

It may get you some useful information, but is that morally necessary? As far as that goes or hey, what would happen if we you know cut off the lower?

Part of a tiger and tried to attach it to a cow's Legs or something like that.

I think that there are things like that that you should probably That don't pass the smell test in the same way but in principle,

I think there is some sort of category there You just need you know Probably a better Ethicist than me to work out the particulars as far as that goes now the idea of testing medicine on a

Our testing makeup on an animal what? What what were you thinking of when you asked that because you seem to indicate that that was morally

More reprehensible to some people than the idea of experimenting for like medicine. What is the thought process there?

Yeah, I think so some basically For anyone not familiar.

I think what happens is, you know, you have these makeup companies that make whatever product and and You know, they'll say some it'll be

Like eyeliner or something that doesn't irritate the eyes or something along those lines and essentially what they do is they

They'll take the eyeliner and put it in the eyes of animals to see their reaction to it and whether or not you know, they respond to like a

Painful reaction from the makeup and so for some people, you know, this is like a

Moral morally Reprehensible action because is it's not even

You know life or death Kind of trying to trying to test it on animals so that we can see.

Hey, will this be deadly to humans or something? it's just about level of comfort essentially and and they don't really see that as You know a worthwhile endeavor to to put animals through some kind of pain

Just to see if the makeup doesn't irritate your eyes or something like that and so for some people that seems way worse and so I wanted to hear what you had to say on You know, you've talked about them.

Yeah when it's life or death, you know even the Bible has has plenty of scenarios where you you give up the animal for the preservation of human life

But then what about these sort of lesser examples where it's not about the preservation of Human life or really even human well -being.

It's just more kind of comfort So what are your thoughts on that? Yeah, I mean human well -being

I mean comfort would be in the category of human well -being though, too. So I don't know that I would Distinguish that in such a harsh way, but I take the point you're making right as far as that goes

Maybe part of that discussion. Is it just a discussion on the permissibility of makeup or that kind of thing anyways, and so maybe part of the reaction there is

You are living in a society right now that You know, let's be honest feminism makes ugly women

Okay so like if you want to learn how to be like revolting to men just be a feminist and so like the in part of that is true

Well, I mean a rejection of femininity at almost every level to where it's almost like more desirable just to have woman in her natural

You know let the armpit hair go Don't take a bath, you know

Let the leg hair grow and I mean there are plenty of like, you know quote -unquote Christian women who were having who feel morally offended at the thought of even wearing makeup or At all or you know, why should

I have to be, you know attractive attractive to a man or subject to the male gaze or You know, it's almost as if it's more virtuous to be hideous to look at, you know

Then it is to even try, you know, so I think part of that discussion might then hinge on how

On Makeup in general and maybe we need to have a whole podcast on you know should women

Wear makeup, you know kind of thing In general but You know, it seems it still does seem to me that it's hard to have a simplistic, you know any

Pain that is caused to an animal to you know aid Mankind in its basic tasks that are given and I mean,

I I think you know for women You could just read through the Old Testament and I just read through the

Song of Solomon Just read through different stories in the Old Testament and the idea of beauty preparations for a woman

Like prior to getting married. I mean, that's just a normal natural thing

Like women are created to be beautiful and I don't see why Using the creation in order to accomplish its purposes is a bad thing

I mean, I think the fact that we've invented razors and things like that, right? Like I think that Anything that can

I think the fall has a way of marring? You know female beauty and I think using technology to try to enhance it.

It's probably a good thing I mean, I I'm glad that we have deodorant. I'm glad that we have baths, you know Oh, yeah,

I don't think the natural scent of a man is you know It's Very inviting, you know, and so if there's a way that we can like eliminate through technology some of the like Men make you know,

I pursue what the opposite sex might find desirable. I think that's a largely a good thing.

And yes I mean, I would rather an animal That's made to be caught and destroyed go blind

Instead of like a woman going blind as far as that goes So I come in I think that there's you could do that kind of thing with pain medication and stuff to eliminate some of the things but I think that I you know, it's hard to give a

I think without getting into the weeds of what particular thing it just seems to me that like if that is just It more hinges on what you think about Matt makeup in general

I think you know as far as that goes and and you probably need a longer discussion on that but yeah,

I think That I don't think in a simplistic way you can just say oh man, that's just awful unless you adopt some kind of Personification of animal or DFI animals in certain ways or just have no category whatsoever for causing an animal discomfort period

You know, so I think you have to adopt something like that in order for it to be Totally morally impermissible.

Okay. Okay. Well, I guess to just to kind of Take us home on the episode now that we've discussed a lot about you know

It feels like basically a lot of what we talked about this episode is here's what you shouldn't do with animals

Here's how we shouldn't view Animals how we shouldn't treat animals. So if you could just take a minute and Maybe explain for everyone listening.

I mean probably I Would I'm pretty confident in saying that probably most of the people who will ever listen to this podcast probably either have a pet right now or Have had a pet at some point in their life

And so maybe just take a moment and and explain what you think the

Bible tells us about How we should actually treat pets in general

Sure, so I think animals are Obviously God had a purpose in bringing animals here

And I think most naturally when you think about the purpose of animals in general you think that that I mean you could see

I think particularly in agrarian societies how they can have some sort of usefulness so an ox can help you plow a field, you know a cow can give you milk and give you hide and In order to clothe you and everything like that and so I think in general like the normal way that God has designed animals is to have some sort of utility as we've talked about to be useful in some sort of way it would

Be a means of transportation to be a source of food in clothing And in that sort of thing and so and I also think you know beyond that you have animals that are here just to marvel at and wonder at and They point you back to God and his good design for the earth and his wisdom

And they reveal certain parts of his attributes and everything else now when you talk about pet

I think the concern that we've addressed in the course of the podcast is the concern that people are looking to pets to do

To meet these basic needs for companionship desires for companionship that they've had and so what they're doing essentially is they're

Treating an animal like they're investing all the emotions and Desires that they should be invested in human beings and looking to human beings

They're looking to animals to do that. And so with those two definitions of Pets that were given they are looking for animals to be a companion in a problematic way and so but but it seems to me that it's possible to Have that second usage of animals as a pet meaning that they're there for pleasure rather than utility and You know,

I just I would say that we most naturally Know how to do this already with animal pets not as companions

With certain kinds of animals over and against others. And so, you know, if you have a pet parakeet for instance

I don't know that anyone is going to weep and sob and cry over the death of a pet parakeet or a pet turtle or Well, maybe if you're the main characters of dumb and dumber

Yeah, but Yeah all right, so But I mean

I think like the idea of you know You go to some sort of you know millionaires house

And he has a glass wall that is an aquarium with a bunch of fish in there I mean no one like has some sort of emotional attachment to these fish

I mean you can look at that and you say oh isn't God good isn't that neat isn't that neat like something? So I think we have the idea already of a pet for enjoyment.

It's already present in our vocabulary It's just that with particular types of pets we as a society

I think have given ourself permission to attach all of our emotions to them As if they're humans, you know human beings that substitute companions for us and we're looking to them to do for us what human beings should and so I think if you could try to figure out the difference between like a pet turtle or a pet parakeet or a pet fish and a pet like whatever you think would be appropriate to Level of enjoyment and love and care you would have for those kind of things

It's probably you know, honestly the kind of love and care that you should have for pets and you know,

I was talking to a friend of mine about this and and and one of the things that he was pointing out is

I was talking about some of the things we were talking about in the episode and And he was saying that it seems to be that like a very unique problem with our generation

Like we can all imagine like the crazy cat lady or whatever else who has like the 20 cats

But that crazy cat lady with the 20 cats like if one of them died, she just goes and gets another one, right?

There's not like the same kind of emotional attachment to the animals And and if you were to look at a lady like that who has all those cats

I mean that was something that in past generations. You kind of pity her. No one wants to you know end up like that, right?

No one wants to end up with like that crazy cat lady. But right now it's like I I mean I've talked to young people and they're spending $4 ,000 on They're in college trying to spend $4 ,000 on their animal

Companions, you know that are Therapeutic animals for them and they don't even feel embarrassed by the fact that this is they're dependent upon a therapeutic animal, right?

Like there's something dramatically different that's happening And and I think it's that we're doing all the bad things with pets instead of just looking at them

Like you might look at a turtle or a fish or parrot, you know No, so I I would think that we already know how to do this with most animals except for cats and dogs

Right, and it seems like we don't we no longer know how to Keep them in the proper perspective anymore because we are so used to Feeding this, you know human ends and instinct impulse with them if that makes sense.

Mm -hmm. Yeah, I haven't seen any Pictures of people feeding a piece of pizza to their wife turtle

At least not yet. Anyways, maybe that's coming pretty soon Yeah, but you can imagine like the you know the white are you can imagine the pet turtle dying and like the kids and the family all cry right and Then you think oh, well, that's like All right kids like this is your first encounter with death.

You need to grow up, right? But then you can't really imagine a grown -up crying over a turtle if he's crying over a turtle

It's like something's wrong with you, man You're like you've lost your way here and I say you need some help, right?

Maybe you need to go to counseling Get a grip get off the ground, you know, like what's wrong, you know, but then

I think I think so I think we already know that it's just that for some reason, you know talk

We've allowed ourself with particular types of animals to go You know

All of our emotions put them in there in a way that is really abnormal historically really.

Yeah So is that helpful? Yeah. Yeah. No, I think I think that's a Good kind of landing question to finish on so this has been another episode of Bible bash