August 11, 2025 Show with Dr. Jason Lisle on “What Scientists Have Learned from the James Webb Space Telescope”

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Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer

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George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend

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Jim Thorpe. It's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth.

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We're listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this 11th day of August 2025.

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I'm absolutely thrilled to have a returning guest today, Dr. Jason Lyle, who is a

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Christian astrophysicist, a theologically reformed Christian apologist, a young Earth creationist, an author, conference speaker, and founder of Biblical Science Institute.

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And today, he will be addressing what scientists have learned from the James Webb Space Telescope and the biggest lies perpetuated by scientists and why they continue to tell them.

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We're also going to be announcing an upcoming conference in Nashville, Tennessee, and one in Colts Neck, New Jersey.

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But it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr. Jason Lyle. Well, thank you for having me on,

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Chris. Appreciate it. Tell our listeners, please, a little bit more about the Biblical Science Institute. Well, we're a

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Christian ministry. And what we do is we show people how science confirms what the Bible teaches, particularly in Genesis.

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A lot of people have the misimpression that science has proved millions of years of evolution, that it's disproved the historical account of Genesis.

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And what we do is we show people that's not the case, that science, when you understand it, confirms that God really did create in six days the way the

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Bible teaches and that that was thousands of years ago, not millions or billions. It's contrary to the narrative, so it takes a little time to go over that evidence.

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But that's really what we do. And because I'm a scientist, I tend to focus a lot on the science of this issue.

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We get into some of the theology as well, but I try to deal with the scientific issues, particularly in my own area of specialty, which is astrophysics.

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Yes, and I had the great honor and privilege to feature Dr. Jason Lyle recently as the keynote speaker of one of my biannual

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Iron Troupe and Zion Radio Free Pastors luncheons, when he spoke on that very thing, the importance of Genesis and using visual aids for us all.

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And everybody that was there was totally riveted to Dr. Lyle.

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And I had many people approaching me afterward, thanking me for inviting them there and just raving about how blessed they were from Jason's presentation.

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And I look forward to many other opportunities to work with him on some kind of a special event.

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But if you are interested in inviting Jason to speak, the website is biblicalscienceinstitute .com,

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biblicalscienceinstitute .com, and all of the details will be there. And also, as I've already said, you are speaking at two different events.

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I'm sure even a lot more than that, but we're going to highlight two coming up in the not so distant future.

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First of all, let's talk about the one that's closest, September 5th through the 6th of this year in Nashville, Tennessee, the

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War of the Worldviews. Tell us about this conference that you are featured as one of the keynote speakers.

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Yeah, there's going to be four speakers, I believe, at that conference. James White, Eli Ayala, Marcus Ross, and myself.

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And we're going to deal with a number of different topics. But basically, we're going to focus on the presuppositions that are necessary for science, the presuppositions that come out of the

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Christian worldview. So it should be a lot of fun. Yeah, and I'd love to learn more about Dr.

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Marcus Ross. He's the only one of the four you mentioned that I have not yet interviewed.

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And it's fascinating and encouraging that he is a geoscientist who will be speaking at this, because the geoscientists that I have become familiar with who are professing

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Christians love to boast of the fact that nearly all of them are old earth creationists.

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And I'm assuming, since Dr. Marcus Ross is speaking with you guys, that he is not. He's a young earther,

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I'm assuming. That is correct. He's a PhD, I believe, in paleontology, but he is an expert on issues relating to fossils, rock layers, things like that.

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Really sharp guy and, frankly, a good friend. I really like Marcus. We really hit it off right away.

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I first met him when he was working as a professor at Liberty University. And, of course, that's one of the requirements at Liberty is that you have to be a biblical creationist, which, of course, he is.

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But he's a sharp guy, a very good scholar. I think he's going to be talking on the subject of alleged ape men, and that is something that he is very knowledgeable of.

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So I hope to actually sit in on his presentation on that. I think that'll be a lot of fun. Great.

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And I hope that he also seeks to disprove the commonly held myth that I am one of those ape men.

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So I would be delighted to be vindicated in this. And, by the way, folks, for more information on that conference,

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War of the Worldviews, on September 5th and 6th, go to TennesseeApologetics .org

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forward slash War of the Worldviews. No spaces or dashes in that.

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That's TennesseeApologetics .org forward slash War of the

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Worldviews. And then coming up in November, November 30th, to be more precise, which is a

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Sunday, you are speaking at the church pastored by a friend of mine,

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Chris Durkin, who is actually providentially speaking here on Iron Trip and Zion Radio tomorrow.

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That was not planned that way, to have you two back to back. It just wound up that way.

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And Pastor Chris Durkin has been a guest in this program. Not only is he pastor of Colts Neck Community Church in New Jersey, but he is the co -host of a documentary on Fox Nation that he co -hosted along with Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth, before Pete was

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Secretary of Defense, The Life of Jesus. And he recently was invited by Pete Hegseth.

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In fact, it was in June, to speak at the Pentagon. He led a prayer breakfast there.

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So I was delighted to hear that since he is so biblically solid. But on Sunday, November 30th, you are going to be speaking on the biblical astrophysics of the

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Star of Bethlehem. Can you tell us more about that? Yeah, that's a fun topic.

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What I do in that presentation, it's an issue I've studied in some depth, because there have been a lot of speculations on what was the star that guided the

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Magi to Christ. As mentioned in Matthew's Gospel in chapter 2, it's the only place it's mentioned in Scripture.

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And what we do basically is, I go through Matthew 2 and exposit the passage and give people a little bit of background information on it.

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And see if we can figure out what this mysterious star was that guided the Magi to Christ. Looking at the biblical text, in some cases we'll have to go back to the

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Greek a little bit to study it, but a lot of the speculations that you hear really don't match what the text of Scripture says.

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And I am a Christian first and a scientist second. And so I believe that it's most important to exposit the text correctly.

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That's what we're going to look at. And then after we get that, then we can look and see, is there a scientific explanation for this?

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Or is it something that God did that was a supernatural manifestation of his power? Which, of course,

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God can do. God is not limited by scientific means. I mean, science is the study of the normal way that God upholds his creation.

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But God is always welcome and able to do something extraordinary. And spoiler alert,

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I believe that the star was a supernatural manifestation of God's power. Yes, I assume that.

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I think everybody did. And by the way, folks, if you would like a list of all of Dr.

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Jason Lyle's East Coast speaking engagements coming up for the remainder of 2025, send me an email and I will forward it to you.

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I just now received an email from the wonderful Sister in Christ who sets up Dr.

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Lyle's speaking engagement, Denise Toth. She just sent me a list of all of these churches, and I can forward it to you if you ask me at chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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By the way, I forgot to mention, I think, the Colts Neck Community Church website for more information on that November 30th speaking engagement on the biblical astrophysics of the

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Star of Bethlehem. That website is coltsneckchurch .com.

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Well, Dr. Lyle, we are speaking on something that has got you very excited, and this is something that is bringing about new developments in the study of space by scientists such as yourself, and I believe scientists such as you who are young earth creationists and astrophysicists, probably even especially, are probably more excited than anybody about the

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James Webb Space Telescope. Before we go on to the biggest lies perpetuated by scientists, tell us more about this

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James Webb Space Telescope, why it is superior to other telescopes, and what it enables scientists to see that they couldn't see before.

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So the James Webb Space Telescope, it was really conceived back in the late 80s, early 90s.

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It was designed to be the successor of the Hubble Space Telescope, and I think most of us are familiar with the

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Hubble Space Telescope, these wonderful images that we get. You can Google them. Frankly, the best images in astronomy up until very recently have been from the

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Hubble Space Telescope, but the Hubble Space Telescope can only peer so far out into space because galaxies, as they move away from us, their light gets redshifted, which basically means it gets shifted to longer wavelengths, lower frequencies, and the

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Hubble Space Telescope has a range of frequencies that it can detect, and the farthest galaxies are below the detection threshold of Hubble.

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It cannot detect their light anymore. It's been stretched too much, and its instrumentation is not able to do that.

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That's where the James Webb Space Telescope comes in. It is designed to detect these longer wavelengths, much longer than Hubble, and therefore it can see galaxies that are much farther away than Hubble can, and frankly, it's pushing the frontier in terms of how far we're able to see into space.

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Where no man has gone before. Right. Exactly. Where no man has gone before. Exactly.

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So tell us about some of these things that you've seen. So it was this

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James Webb Space Telescope. It was launched back in Christmas of 2021, and in January 2022,

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I thought I need to make some creation -based predictions on what I expect this telescope to find, because the secularists, at their expectations, based on the

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Big Bang, based on billions of years, based on their ideas of galaxy evolution, they believe the universe exploded into existence 13 .8

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billion years ago, and then after a few hundred million years, the first galaxies, the first stars formed and collected into galaxies, and the galaxies get bigger over time and more massive, and I thought, wait,

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I don't believe in any of that. So I'm going to make some different predictions, because in the secular view, as you look out farther into space, they say it's like looking back in time, because the light has taken so long.

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It's allegedly taken billions of years to get from there to here, and so you're seeing the universe, the distant universe, not as it is today, but as it was in the distant past.

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Now, I could dispute that. I have written some articles on that, showing that, in fact, we can see the universe in real time, depending on how time is defined.

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It's kind of complicated. It involves the physics of Einstein. But basically, I don't believe that galaxies have slowly evolved over billions of years.

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I don't believe that there was a time of hundreds of billions of years where there were no galaxies. I only believe there was four days where there were no galaxies.

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And in any case, what I predicted was that the James Webb Space Telescope would see lots and lots of galaxies at distances farther than the secularists thought possible, that these galaxies would be large, not babies, because God created them as adults.

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God created Adam and Eve as adults. I believe he made the galaxies as adults. And that they would contain what astronomers call heavy metals, which are elements like oxygen and nitrogen, which from a chemistry perspective are not metals, but from an astronomy perspective, they're classified as metals.

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And that's the opposite of what the secularists are predicting. They're predicting that as you go out farther, you should see fewer and fewer galaxies, because you're looking to a time when only a few of them had formed, and you ought to be able to see a distance.

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The James Webb ought to be able to see a distance where there are no galaxies, because they hadn't formed yet. It's looking back to that time.

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And frankly, the earliest galaxies that you should see should be babies. And they believe that the earliest galaxies should not have these heavy elements, because those are supposed to be produced in the cores of stars later.

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And therefore, the earliest galaxies should not have them. Long story short, the three predictions that I made have now all been verified.

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Wow. Hallelujah. Yeah. Very exciting. Now, were you able to say, I told you so to any of these secular scientists?

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In a polite way, yes. Yeah. So that article I wrote, Making the

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Predictions, that was back in January of 2022, before James Webb had taken any data.

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And it wasn't until July of that same year that the first images were released from the James Webb Space Telescope.

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And it showed indeed tremendous numbers of galaxies, far more than the secularists were expecting, at distances farther than they were expecting, higher redshifts than they were expecting.

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And it did detect the presence of heavy metals, things like oxygen, carbon, and so on. And it found that these galaxies that are there, many of them are massive.

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Many of them are as massive as our galaxy, based on the luminosity. So that shows you they're not babies.

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They're adult galaxies, which is just exactly what creationists expected. So 2020 year was a very fun year to be a biblical creationist.

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Amen. Now, have you heard of any walking back by secular scientists as they scramble to explain how they were wrong?

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Well, the funny thing is, I knew that would happen. And so back in 2022, I not only predicted that the secularists would be wrong in their predictions, but I also predicted how they would respond.

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I predicted that they would, rather than give up the Big Bang, because that's sacred, that's their sacred cow, they would just push back galaxy evolution to an earlier time.

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They would say things like, the Webb Space Telescope discovers that galaxies formed much earlier than previously thought.

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And lo and behold, I can show you quotes where they have said almost exactly, almost verbatim, what

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I said they would say. Namely, they pushed back. They've said, oh, galaxies must have formed much earlier than we thought. But it would have to be a lot earlier, because they're massive galaxies.

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And so the results of that I published later that year. It was in September of 2022. And you can find these articles on the

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Biblical Science Institute website, biblicalscienceinstitute .com. The results article is,

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I believe it was September that year, where I pointed out that cosmology confirms creation, that these discoveries confirmed the predictions that creation scientists expected and were contrary to what the secularists were expecting.

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Now, I have friends, they're not scientists, but they do a lot of public speaking as Christians.

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They believe in biblical creationism.

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And some of them that I've had conversations with will take an agnostic position in regard to the

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Big Bang. They don't think that believing in God's use of a

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Big Bang, unlike secular scientists who don't believe

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God caused anything, because they don't believe God exists, or that you can in any way prove it or what have you.

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But they don't even seem to make a big deal whether or not that was true.

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Now, why is that view, the Big Bang? I believe you may have explained this on your last interview with us, but I think it warrants repeating.

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Why is that view not compatible with a biblical creationist view, in your opinion?

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Yeah, of course. Basically, first of all, it kind of defeats the purpose. The Big Bang was designed to explain how the universe could come about or at least how it comes to its current rate of expansion and so on without invoking the

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Creator. Now, the inventor of the Big Bang did believe in a God, in fact, the biblical

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God to some extent, but he did not believe in the literal Genesis. He thought that wasn't real history. And he was trying to use the

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Big Bang to explain how the universe could come about naturalistically, how it could come about without supernatural intervention.

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So the first thing I'd point out is the purpose of the Big Bang is to explain the universe without God.

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Secondly, the details of the Big Bang are not compatible with Scripture. The Big Bang, for example, supposedly takes place...

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I mean, the expansion of the universe, the formation of galaxies is supposed to take hundreds of millions of years for the first galaxies to form.

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But according to the Bible, stars and therefore galaxies, which are comprised of stars, are made on day four of the creation week.

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They're only two days before Adam. Adam's made on day six. So the idea that these galaxies took millions of years to form is not compatible with the

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Bible. Some people try to say, well, the days of creation aren't really days, they're long ages.

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First of all, that doesn't work in terms of the Hebrew. There's no doubt that the author of Genesis intended those days to be taken as ordinary days.

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That's the basis for our work week, according to Exodus 2011. But even if you did, the order of events is wrong.

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The Big Bang, that model, the standard model, supposes that the galaxies formed hundreds of millions of years ago, actually hundreds of millions of years to form.

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And the galaxies that we see today are like 10 billion years old and that they formed long before the earth.

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So our galaxy is supposed to be 10 billion years old. The earth's supposed to be 4 .5 billion years old. So it's later than the galaxies.

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But according to the Bible, the earth's made on day one. In the beginning, God created heaven and the earth and stars aren't made until day four.

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So according to scripture, galaxies come later. My point is the order's opposite. Big Bang says galaxies, then the earth.

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The Bible says earth, then galaxies. So you can't reconcile those two. If the Big Bang is true, then

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Genesis is false. If Genesis is true, then the Big Bang is false. You can't have it both ways. Well, we're going to our first commercial break.

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If you have a question for Dr. Jason Lyle on anything regarding astrophysics and space and the

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James Webble Space Telescope and any of the common, most perpetuated lies of scientists, you can give us an email at chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

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chrisarnson at gmail dot com. As always, give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence.

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Don't go away. We're going to be right back with Jason Lyle right after these messages from our sponsors. James White here of Alpha Omega Ministries announcing that this

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September I'm heading out to Pennsylvania to speak at two events that my longtime friend

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Chris Arnzen has lined up for me. On Thursday, September 18th, at 11 a .m.,

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I'm speaking to men in ministry leadership at Chris's Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Free Pastors Luncheon at Church of the

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Living Christ in Loisville. Then, on Sunday, September 21st, at 1 .30

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p .m., I'm speaking at Trinity Reformed Baptist Church of Carlisle on the theme, Can We Trust the

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Bible is the Authentic and Inerrant Word of God? I hope you can join Chris and me for both events.

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For more details on the Free Pastors Luncheon, visit ironsharpensironradio .com.

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That's trbccarlisle .org. God willing, I'll see you in September in Pennsylvania for these exciting events.

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I'm Simon O'Mahony, pastor of Trinity Reformed Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania. Originally from Cork, Ireland, the

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Lord in his sovereign providence has called me to shepherd this new and growing congregation here in Cumberland County.

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At TRBC, we joyfully uphold the Second London Baptist Confession. We embrace congregational church government, and we are committed to preaching the full counsel of God's Word for the edification of believers, the salvation of the lost, and the glory of our

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That's royaldiadem .com. We're now back with Dr. Jason Lyle, who is a

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Christian astrophysicist, a Reformed Christian apologist, a young Earth creationist, an author and conference speaker, and the founder of biblicalscienceinstitute .com,

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and we are addressing some of the discoveries through the

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James Webb Space Telescope. And by the way, isn't that kind of redundant?

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Aren't all telescopes space telescopes? No, most telescopes are on Earth.

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Most telescopes are what we call ground -based, and the reason that space telescopes are so superior,

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James Webb and the Hubble being two very prominent ones, is because they're above the turbulent effect of Earth's atmosphere.

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Oh, okay. Yeah. So where is it? I've got a telescope... Go ahead.

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I've got a telescope in my backyard, a pretty decent one, and I can look in, zoom in on the stars, but they always look a little bit blurry, and that's because of the

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Earth's atmosphere. That light travels trillions of miles through space in perfect clarity, only to be screwed up in the last 10 miles or so as it comes to Earth's atmosphere.

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James Webb and Hubble are both above the atmosphere, and so they're not subject to that turbulence or the blocking of infrared light, which the

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James Webb Space Telescope, that's why it wouldn't work on Earth, because it's looking at infrared wavelengths, and they are absorbed by Earth's atmosphere.

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Now, forgive me if I asked you before, but where exactly are the James Webb Telescope and the

34:31

Hubble Telescope, Space Telescope? So the Hubble, yeah, the Hubble Telescope is in what we call low

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Earth orbit, so it's orbiting around the Earth, and the advantage of that is it's repairable.

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Remember back when the Hubble was first launched, they had miscalibrated the mirror curvature very slightly, and that caused the initial optics to be incorrect, and they were able to design

34:55

COSTAR, and the astronauts were able to go up and repair it, basically. They basically gave Hubble glasses to fix its incorrect curvature of the mirror.

35:03

Now, the James Webb Space Telescope, it's out much further in space. It won't work in a low Earth orbit because it's seeing these long wavelengths of light, infrared, basically heat, and Earth's heat would affect it if it were too close to the

35:18

Earth, so they had to put it way out in space. It's about a million miles out in space in the opposite direction of the sun, so think where the sun is, point in the opposite direction and go a million miles, you'll find the

35:30

James Webb Space Telescope there. It's what's called the L2 Lagrangian point. It's a stable spot where Earth's gravity and the sun's combined so that it will orbit sort of along with the

35:40

Earth but a million miles out farther into space, so it's four times farther away than the moon. Fascinating.

35:46

Well, we have a listener in New Rochelle, New York, Joey, and,

35:51

Joey, you can say hello to Rob and Laura Petri for me out there in New Rochelle, and I don't know if Joey is old enough to remember the

36:00

Dick Van Dyke Show, but that's where the characters Rob and Laura Petri lived in New Rochelle, but anyway,

36:08

Joey asks, thank you for standing firm on biblical authority. Secular astronomers more and more agree in positing dark matter as a way to explain various phenomena such as the unexpected expansion rate of the universe.

36:27

Wondering what is your view of dark matter and whether it is relevant to the

36:34

Christian worldview? In fact, what Joey didn't even ask is, do you believe that the universe is expanding to begin with?

36:44

But go on and answer Joey's questions. Okay, so dark matter, a lot of people have the sort of misimpression that it was invented to sort of fix the

36:54

Big Bang or things like that. That's not the case. Dark matter is the observation that the way stars move in galaxies suggests that there's more mass than what we can account for by our visible observations, by the observations of stars and gas and dust, which we have various ways of detecting that.

37:15

The way that stars move tells us how much mass is interior to their orbit. And when we add up all the visible stuff we can see, we find that it's insufficient to keep the stars in their orbit and yet they're still orbiting.

37:28

So what that suggests is that there's a great deal of invisible mass in the universe, which we call dark matter.

37:35

And there are several lines of evidence that would support that. So I am an advocate of dark matter.

37:41

I think there's good evidence that it does exist. It's not relevant to the Big Bang. It's just good science.

37:47

In fact, before Neptune was discovered, technically it was dark matter because astronomers knew it was there because it was pulling on the orbit of Uranus, but they couldn't see it yet because they didn't know exactly where it was.

38:00

And then when they finally pointed the telescope at it and saw the planet Neptune with visible light, then it's no longer dark matter because now we can see it.

38:07

But apparently there's a substance in space, we know not what it is, that is pulling on stars, keeping them in their stable orbits in their galaxies.

38:14

And it accounts for more mass in the universe than is visible mass.

38:20

Now, with regard to, you mentioned the acceleration of the expansion, that's a different issue. That's thought to be caused by Securus.

38:27

It's thought to be caused by dark energy. And dark energy basically is the hypothesis that empty space might have a little bit of energy to it.

38:36

Even if there's no particles in it, empty space sort of has a little bit of mass to it. And that would create a sort of pressure that would cause the universe to expand at an accelerated rate.

38:48

Now, that is more controversial. And in fact, I published a paper just last year challenging the idea that the universe is expanding or that the fabric of space is expanding.

39:00

And if my alternative is right, then dark energy might not actually exist.

39:06

So I would say dark matter is a very, it's on very good scientific grounds. It's not absolutely proven, but it's the best hypothesis we have.

39:14

Whereas dark energy is far more tentative, far more controversial. Now, am

39:19

I misremembering a previous conversation with you where you were saying that the latest discoveries of the universe is that it's not expanding?

39:31

So what I, yeah, what I discovered is, and I published a paper on this last year, is that there is evidence that the fabric of space does not expand as the galaxies move through it.

39:43

So the universe is expanding in the sense that galaxies are getting farther away from each other and from us. But the fabric of space, you could think of empty space as sort of like a rubber sheet or something that can be stretched.

39:55

The latest observations from the James Webb Space Telescope are not actually very consistent with that. And this was something that surprised me.

40:02

But when I, if the fabric of space is expanding in the way that secular astronomers and frankly creation astronomers have assumed for the last hundred years, it follows a mathematical formula called the

40:16

Friedman -Lemaître -Robertson -Walker metric. And that's named after the four scientists who discovered this.

40:21

And it postulates that the fabric of space is like a rubber band that's stretched and the galaxies just kind of go along for the ride.

40:28

If that's true, then that sort of distorts the appearance of distant galaxies, making them larger than they really are.

40:37

It creates a sort of magnification effect. You know how normally when you look at something that's far away, it looks small, right?

40:44

You see a car that's close by, it looks big. You see a car that's down the road a couple of miles, it looks very small.

40:49

That's angular size. Now, if the universe is expanding, that effect is only true out to a certain distance, a redshift of 1 .6.

40:57

And then after that, things should start to look bigger the farther away they are, which is counterintuitive.

41:04

But that's what the math tells us. And when I looked at the sizes of these galaxies in James Webb Space Telescope data,

41:11

I did not see that effect at all. I was expecting to see that, to see galaxies starting to look bigger and bigger at a redshift greater than 1 .6,

41:19

but they don't. They continue to look slightly smaller and smaller. And what I did is I did the math and calculated how big they should look if the fabric of space is not expanding at all.

41:29

And it turns out they should look exactly the size that they look. And I published this, that the data fit is remarkable.

41:36

It's controversial. I could be wrong about this, but what I'm postulating is that the universe, the fabric of space is not expanding, at least not in the way that we have assumed in the last hundred years.

41:48

I'm proposing that the Friedman -Lemaître -Robertson -Walker metric is wrong. And when I make that postulate, the data fit to the sizes of these distant galaxies, it matches almost perfectly.

42:00

And if people are interested that, they can look at my paper. It's been published in the Answers Research Journal. That's answersresearchjournal .org.

42:08

And that was published back last year. So look at the 2024 issue. And I think I called the article something like galaxy sizes challenge standard model, suggest new cosmology.

42:23

Galaxy sizes suggest new cosmology. There's been one response to it. There was a secular astronomer,

42:30

Luke Barnes, who very politely has challenged my model, but I think he's mistaken. And my reply to him will come out

42:36

August 20th. So this month, just in a few days, actually, in the Answers Research Journal.

42:41

So you can see who, you can look at both of our positions and see which one makes the most sense. By the way, have you ever participated in a live public moderated debate with a fellow scientist?

42:55

I've done a number of debates, but none of them have been formal where you have a timed opening and then a time rebuttal.

43:03

All the debates I've done have been informal, but yeah, I have done a number of debates. Not a whole lot. Informal meaning being exclusively in writing or?

43:12

No, informal meaning there's no explicit time limit. The moderator will ask me a question and then he'll ask my opponent to respond and then vice versa.

43:21

It's just sort of, it's informal, but there's no official cross -examination or things like that. Right, which is the best part of any debate as far as I'm concerned.

43:29

I know it is. We have, I think, I'm not sure, but Carol in Colorado Springs, Colorado, may be a first -time questioner.

43:40

Perhaps she could let me know if she is with another email. She says,

43:45

Hello, I'm listening to your excellent interview on Iron, Triple Zion, and I have a question for Dr.

43:50

Lyle. With the Big Bang losing scientific credibility, what will secular scientists likely turn to as an explanation for the universe's origin?

44:02

And how would you respond to whatever might be the next most prominent argument, if there is one?

44:08

Or do you think the Big Bang theory will lose favor at all?

44:16

Ah, good questions. It's interesting because when

44:21

I made the predictions about what James Webb Space Telescope would detect and I'm predicting that the secular predictions will be wrong,

44:28

I also predicted that they would not give up the Big Bang. They would simply push back galaxy evolution to an earlier time.

44:34

And that's what most of them have done. They've simply said galaxies must have evolved quicker, earlier than we thought.

44:41

So, the Big Bang, because it's, it's not really a theory.

44:46

It's a paradigm. It's a worldview, mental glasses through which people interpret the evidence.

44:52

And for that reason, it's going to be very hard for them to give that up. Because no matter what evidence is discovered, they will shoehorn it into the

44:59

Big Bang. That being said, there are very few secularists who are questioning the

45:04

Big Bang or pushing the entire age of the universe back to trying to double it. I read one technical paper where they tried to combine what's called the tired light hypothesis with an expansion of the universe that's basically half what it is.

45:18

That would double the secular age of the universe, making it 26 billion years old. So, that's one possibility. Another view that might come back, if the

45:27

Big Bang, if people find it, the evidence too difficult to shoehorn into it, would be the steady state model.

45:35

That was an older position that has largely been considered refuted, but it might come back now that we're getting data that the

45:41

Big Bang, or at least Big Bang and secular models of galaxy evolution are wrong.

45:48

Carol, if you are indeed a first -time questioner, you have just won a

45:54

New American Standard Bible, compliments of the publishers of the NASB, and compliments of Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com.

46:04

We'll be shipping the Bible to you. We just need your full mailing address in Colorado Springs, Colorado.

46:11

So, thank you very much for your question. We have Ted in Moundville, Alabama.

46:20

And Ted says, you made a quick reference early in the show to the order of creation, and specifically to the

46:30

Earth's having been created before the sun through somewhat similar,

46:36

I'm sorry, though somewhat familiar with your work, I don't think

46:43

I've heard your explanation of how we could have, how we could have a 24 -hour day in absence of the sun, giving that a 24 -hour day would require the rotation of the

46:58

Earth, and that rotation would require the presence of a gravitational force, i .e.,

47:05

the sun, which according to this model hasn't been created yet. Okay, so it's actually not the rotation of the

47:17

Earth does not require gravitational sorts. It's the revolution of the Earth, the Earth going around the sun, and that's where we get our year.

47:24

But the day is caused by the rotation of the Earth, and things can rotate without orbiting something else.

47:32

All stars that we know of rotate, but some stars do not orbit around another star. Our sun rotates, but it doesn't orbit around another star as far as we know.

47:42

So as long as you have a source of light and a rotating planet, you're gonna have ordinary day and night.

47:48

You don't need a gravitational source outside the Earth for that. And we know the Earth was already rotating on the first day because the first day is defined scripturally in terms of an evening and a morning,

47:59

Genesis 1, verse 5, and there was evening and there was morning one day. That's defining what a day is.

48:05

It's one Earth rotation. And there was already light because God provided the light for those first three days.

48:12

God said, let there be light, and there was light. God divided the light from the darkness, so light is illuminating one half of the Earth and not the other half, and the

48:18

Earth's rotating, so you're gonna have ordinary 24 -hour days. It's just God was using a temporary light source before the sun, but it doesn't have to have gravity because the

48:27

Earth doesn't need to be orbiting anything at that point. And then God replaced that temporary light that he used for the first three days with the sun on day four, and presumably the

48:36

Earth would have been orbiting the sun at that point, but it's already rotating, so it's the rotation of the Earth that determines the length of the day, not the revolution of the

48:45

Earth. Thank you, Ted, in Manville, Alabama. Please keep spreading the word about Iron Trip and Zion Radio there and beyond.

48:53

And has a secularist scientist, especially from an atheist point of view, which

49:04

I'm assuming the vast majority of secular scientists are coming from that point of view, or at the very least a false notion of God, has any of them ever posed a question to you that has stumped you?

49:24

Well, I think most of my astronomy colleagues probably do believe in God or a

49:29

God. There are some exceptions. There was a friend of mine in grad school. He was a pretty devout atheist, but we kind of got along.

49:37

We kind of liked each other, actually, and we had some good conversations. I don't think there was anything that really stumped me. There are some things

49:43

I don't know the answers to, but not in the sense of a gotcha question, whereas if you can't answer that, it disproves your position.

49:51

I don't know why God made the planet Neptune, for example. I'm glad he did. It's beautiful. It declares his glory, but why did he give

50:00

Saturn rings and Jupiter only very thin rings that we can't see from Earth? There's lots of questions like that that I can't give an answer to, but they're not questions that would stump or disprove a creation view.

50:13

Those aren't even questions that a secular scientist could prove the answers of their own to.

50:20

That's true. That's true. I mean, they speculate on the origins of rings and things like that and the origins of planets, but they don't have really a good...

50:27

I mean, they can tell stories, but they don't really have a good answer to that either. So, yeah, I would say there's not really been a good question.

50:33

The ones that they think are good gotcha questions are very easy to answer.

50:38

Like if God's all powerful and all good, why is there evil? Why is there pain in the universe? That's easy to answer scripturally.

50:46

God has a morally good reason for the evil that he allows. And Romans 9 talks about that.

50:52

The fact that God is even allowed vessels prepared for destruction so that he might show grace and mercy to vessels of mercy.

51:01

So we get to experience God's mercy. That's one reason why he allowed Adam to sin and so on.

51:07

It's ultimately a very good thing, not that Adam sinned, but God brought good out of it and God allows things like that.

51:14

So these gotcha questions are, how do you get starlights to the earth in the biblical timescale? Well, we've answered that.

51:20

I've written articles on that. It's not something that's easy to answer succinctly to people who don't know the physics of Einstein, but we do have an answer for that and I've written about it.

51:29

So I haven't heard any really good gotcha questions. By the way, Ted from Moundville, Alabama has a follow -up question.

51:38

What was that light though, if not the sun? What happened to this temporary light source?

51:46

Yeah, that's a good question. The Bible doesn't say. The Bible simply says that God said, let there be light and there was light.

51:52

So God did provide light for those first three days. People have speculated they could say that it could be the

51:58

Shekinah glory of God himself. That's a possibility. It could be supernaturally created light that God simply poured down photons on the earth for the first three days and then

52:08

God replaced that with the sun on day four. So presumably that original light is not around anymore.

52:14

I could speculate, but that's all it would be. It would be speculation. The Bible, we don't have any information beyond scripture on that and therefore anything we say would be speculation.

52:23

But I can tell you that God had a good reason for doing it that way. And this isn't explicitly in the

52:29

Bible, but we do know that many ancient cultures worshipped the sun. They considered it the primary source of life.

52:36

And so it does make sense that God would displace the sun, delay it a few days, perhaps

52:41

God's way of saying the sun is not the primary source of life. God's saying I'm the primary source of life.

52:47

And so God simply created the sun a few days later to sustain the life that only he can create.

52:55

By the way, Carol in Colorado Springs, Colorado has confirmed she's a first time listener and she has provided me with her mailing address so you will be receiving that free

53:05

New American Standard Bible. And she's been wanting one for a long time.

53:11

And she says, I love what you're doing on the radio and hope to continue listening. Thank you for serving the

53:17

Lord in this way. And many thanks to Dr. Lyle for sharing his wisdom and love for the Lord. Thank you for those encouraging words,

53:25

Carol. And we're going to our midway break right now. And if you also have a question for Dr.

53:31

Lyle, submit it to ChrisArnson at gmail .com. ChrisArnson at gmail .com.

53:36

As always, give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence. We'll be right back. Please do not go away.

53:51

I'm Dr. Joseph Piper, President Emeritus and Professor of Systematic and Applied Theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary.

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Every Christian who's serious about the Deformed Faith and the Westminster Standards should have and use the eight -volume commentary on the theology and ethics of the

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It is much more than an exposition of the Larger Catechism. It is a thoroughly researched work that utilizes biblical exegesis as well as historical and systematic theology.

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For details on the eight -volume commentary, go to westminstercommentary .com, westminstercommentary .com.

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For details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit heritagepresbyterianchurch .com,

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Joseph Piper of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary sends you. Hello, my name is

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Anthony Uvino, and I'm one of the pastors at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Quorum, New York, and also the host of the reformrookie .com

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Again, I'm Pastor Anthony Invinio and thanks for listening. Hi, this is

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When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

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Tell them Chris from Iron Sharpens Iron Radio sent you. Welcome back.

01:06:54

Before I return to my fascinating conversation with Dr. Jason Lyle, founder of the

01:07:00

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01:08:27

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01:08:59

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01:09:16

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01:09:28

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01:09:41

I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can send in a question to Dr.

01:09:46

Jason Lyle. That's chrisarnson at gmail dot com. Give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence.

01:09:53

And Dr. Lyle, I don't know if you have any other things that you want to tell us about new discoveries from the

01:10:00

James Webb Space Telescope, but if you're finished with that list,

01:10:06

I'd love to start to hear those things that you consider lies from the scientific community that they continually regurgitate.

01:10:16

Yeah, maybe we can talk about that now because there are, there is false information that goes around, and I don't necessarily want to impugn a person's motives.

01:10:29

Sometimes people hear a lie, they repeat it thinking it's the truth, that happens.

01:10:34

But there are certain claims that go around or have gone around in the past. One such claim is that creationists don't make successful scientific predictions, that science is all about predicting future observations, things like that.

01:10:51

And creationists just don't do that. And, of course, if they've been listening to the previous hour of the show,

01:10:56

I just gave three examples of predictions that I made back in 2022. So that claim is false, the claim that creationists don't make successful predictions.

01:11:06

That's one of them that you hear all the time, or that, frankly, that creation is unscientific, that you can't consistently be a creationist and also a scientist.

01:11:17

And that would certainly come as a surprise to people like Isaac Newton, who is certainly a creationist, or Johannes Kepler, who discovered the three laws of planetary motion and was a devout

01:11:27

Christian. So this claim that science is antagonistic to biblical creation is simply false.

01:11:33

And we have a history of examples of people that affirmed both, or that affirmed science and affirmed biblical creation.

01:11:43

And I would also argue that science comes out of a biblical creation paradigm.

01:11:48

The reason that we can do science is because God has constructed the universe and upholds it in a consistent way with patterns that we can discover.

01:11:58

And God has given us senses that are basically reliable, that can inform our mind about the outside world so that we can study it and probe it.

01:12:06

All these things are presuppositions that go into the scientific method that people take for granted, but they're creationist presuppositions.

01:12:15

They're Christian principles, and therefore this claim that Christianity is anti -scientific or creation is anti -scientific is patently false.

01:12:26

And are most of these arguments that you hear, the ones that you just listed, are they actually coming from secular scientists or just leftists in general?

01:12:39

That's a good question. It's probably a combination of both. And I do think that there are evolutionists out there who try to be honest, and I think that's great, although I would point out to them that on their own worldview they have no basis for being honest because that's a

01:12:53

Christian presupposition as well. The idea that there's a moral principle by which we're bound and going to be judged by, that's a

01:13:00

Christian principle. If we're just rearranged pond scum, there's no logical reason why you can't lie to a chemical accident that benefits your survival value.

01:13:07

That being the case, I do recognize that there are many evolutionists who try to be moral, and I appreciate that.

01:13:13

I think it shows that in their heart of hearts they do know the biblical God. But a lot of people just hear these claims and then pass them on.

01:13:21

Inadvertently, they're not trying to be dishonest, but nonetheless, these claims need to be confronted when they occur.

01:13:28

And of course, a scientist should not just be passing on things that they heard.

01:13:35

You would think that scientists would be above that, but the fact is scientists, we're people too, and we can't go back and rediscover the wheel every time.

01:13:45

We do have to rely upon other people, but nonetheless, it is incumbent upon us to do our homework, to take some responsibility for what we hear and not just blindly accept it.

01:13:58

I just recently was reading the transcripts from the scientists that were entered into written evidence in the

01:14:07

Scopes monkey trial from 100 years ago. It was really fascinating because a number of those evidences are now known to be false, and some of them are just fraud, like for example, the

01:14:18

Piltdown Man. Several of the scientists at the Scopes monkey trial in their written affidavits, now the jury never heard these, but these were written affidavits, and they included as evidence for evolution,

01:14:28

Piltdown Man as an evidence of an intermediate between a human being and an ancient ape, our alleged ape -like ancestor.

01:14:38

It's an ape man. Well, technically it is because it's the skull cap of a human and the jaw of an ape where the ape jaw had been filed down to make teeth look more human.

01:14:47

It is an obvious fraud. It is a lie, but several of the scientists, scientists you'd think, well, they should have looked, they would have looked into it.

01:14:55

Well, they didn't. They heard about it. They passed on that information as evidence that they found very persuasive to their evolutionary viewpoint.

01:15:04

Another example of that would be the idea of embryonic recapitulation, which is the idea that a human baby, when they're developing in the womb, they go through stages of evolution.

01:15:15

They look like a fish for a while and they have these little gill slits and then they, like an amphibian and then a reptile and so on.

01:15:22

It's false. It was based on fraudulent drawings by Ernest Haeckel and we all know that now, but at the time, those, again, several people at the

01:15:34

Scopes trial, several of the scientists used that as evidence of evolution, and today we know it's a lie and it makes you wonder what evidence is being used today that 100 years from now, everybody will say, well, of course that was a lie.

01:15:48

Why didn't they know that? Maybe we haven't discovered that yet. So it's kind of interesting. It's a lesson from history.

01:15:54

Now, from your knowledge of the Scopes monkey trial, is it true that William Jennings Bryan was, for lack of a better term, buffoonish and demonstrating great ignorance?

01:16:11

Not long ago, maybe it was two years ago or so,

01:16:17

I was asked to do a voiceover for a documentarian friend of mine,

01:16:25

Pastor Jason Wallace, Christ Presbyterian Church in Magna, Utah. He has produced some really extraordinary documentaries on a whole host of subjects, but one of them was a video that he had me do a voiceover for for the notorious atheist and journalist

01:16:48

H .L. Mencken, and the recording that Jason Wallace had me do the voiceover for was his written eulogy for J.

01:17:02

Gresham Machen, the fundamentalist involved, one of the many fundamentalists involved in the fundamentalist modernist controversy in the 20s and 30s, who also was the founder of the

01:17:20

Orthodox Presbyterian denomination and Westminster Seminary, Westminster Theological Seminary in Philadelphia.

01:17:28

And he had a high regard, Mencken, that is, had a very high regard for J.

01:17:34

Gresham Machen, even though Machen was a Christian, and he had a very low view of William Jennings Bryan and pretty much caricatured him as a foolish man.

01:17:51

Now, was there truth in that, or what do you have to say about that if you're aware of the facts behind that?

01:17:58

Yeah, there's no truth to that. That is another outright lie, really. William Jennings Bryan was a brilliant man.

01:18:04

Brilliant. Now, I think he made two mistakes in the Scopes trial, but there's no doubt that he was brilliant.

01:18:11

Now, he had some unorthodox views. He was, by today's standards, a little bit liberal on some issues, but in any case, no, he was brilliant, and he certainly was more knowledgeable of creation versus evolution.

01:18:25

He had talked with many scientists. He knew the issues, actually, a lot of them, and he was certainly more knowledgeable than Clarence Darrow.

01:18:31

But one of the moves that Clarence Darrow... Clarence Darrow was one of the lead defense attorneys defending

01:18:38

John Scopes, but... Who was teaching evolution in a school. Right.

01:18:43

It was an alleged violation of the Butler Act, which prevented any school getting state funding from teaching that human beings had descended from lower life forms in contradiction to Genesis.

01:18:57

It did not forbid teaching other forms of evolution, that dogs had evolved or something like that, only that human beings had evolved.

01:19:03

John Scopes never actually taught that. He never actually taught it in school. This was a trial that was not about the actual issue of the law.

01:19:11

It was the ACLU's attempt to overturn the law itself by saying it was unconstitutional.

01:19:17

And so Clarence Darrow was not interested in actually defending John Scopes.

01:19:24

In fact, he ended up asking the judge to instruct the jury to find his own client guilty as charged.

01:19:31

So there's no doubt that wasn't his interest. His interest was in trying to expose what he called the full religion of William Jennings Bryan.

01:19:40

And so in an interesting move, he asked William Jennings Bryan, one of the leading prosecution attorneys, to take the stand as an expert on the

01:19:49

Bible, which he did. And I believe he made two mistakes on the stand because he actually defended the faith pretty well when

01:19:57

Clarence Darrow asked him, should we take all the Bible literally? Bryan answered correctly.

01:20:03

He says, no, we should take it in a natural sense, but we understand that there's poetry. And he gave an example.

01:20:09

And I thought, boy, that's brilliant. I think the example he says when you know that Christ says you're the salt of the earth, it doesn't mean we're sodium chloride.

01:20:15

I thought that was a good example. Yeah, we take the Bible literarily. We take it in a normal sense with allowances for figures of speech.

01:20:22

He did a great job up until the first place where he messed up was when Clarence Darrow asked him where Cain got his wife.

01:20:29

And William Jennings Bryan humorously answered, I leave that for the secularists to look for or to hunt for or something like that.

01:20:36

It was meant to be humorous, but I think he should have answered the question. And he could have, if he'd known biblical history, he would have known that originally, so you can't marry a relative.

01:20:48

Everybody marries a relative because we're all related. Initially they would have had to have married close relatives, but up until the time of Genesis, or up until the time of Exodus, that wouldn't have been a problem because very few mutations and so on.

01:21:00

Anyway, he could have answered that. But the one where he really messed up is when Clarence Darrow asked him about the age of the earth, if rocks could be millions of years old or if the earth could be millions of years old, if the days were ordinary days.

01:21:14

And that's where William Jennings Bryan compromised and said, they could have been long periods of time.

01:21:20

I don't really take an issue on that. Because if he'd have stuck to his guns on all the other issues, when he asked him about Jonah and the great fish, hey, he stood his ground.

01:21:28

He said, yeah, I believe that happened. It's in scripture. If he had stood his ground, there was nothing Clarence Darrow could have said. The best he could have said was, some scientists disagree with you.

01:21:37

And then William Jennings Bryan would say, well, I'm gonna go with God rather than man. I mean, if he'd have stuck to his guns, he would have floored it.

01:21:45

And frankly, the only reason he took the stand was he was under the impression that he would then get to interview

01:21:51

Clarence Darrow the next day. And he would have destroyed him on the stand, I believe, because he was,

01:21:57

William Jennings Bryan was brilliant. There's no doubt about that. But so was Clarence Darrow. And Clarence Darrow, in a different way,

01:22:02

Clarence Darrow conceded defeat after he asked William Jennings Bryan this question. He accomplished what he thought he wanted to accomplish, was to show the foolishness of Christianity, the inconsistency of it.

01:22:14

And when William Jennings Bryan compromised, Clarence Darrow had one in his mind. Then he asked the judge, go ahead and find my client guilty.

01:22:22

And that prevented William Jennings Bryan from then interrogating him and from making a closing statement.

01:22:29

Now, do you think, I mean, obviously you could only guess, but could it be possible one of the reasons

01:22:37

William Jennings Bryan refrained from describing how

01:22:46

Kane could have had his wife, could have found a wife. Do you think he was fearful of publicly talking about something so scandalous as incest back in that day?

01:23:03

It could be. It could be. But nonetheless, I think we ought to stay, you know, it wouldn't be too hard to say, well, it would have had to have been one of his close relatives and that would have been okay early on.

01:23:13

And it wasn't until the time of Exodus that God forbid, you know, marriage of close relatives, but even

01:23:20

Abraham was married to his half sister, Sarah. I mean, he could have answered that very quickly on the stand. I just thought the approach he took as an attempt at humor,

01:23:31

I mean, maybe people chuckled. I don't know. It's not in the record, but I think if he'd have just given a straightforward answer to that and stuck to the

01:23:38

Bible, I think it would have been stronger because we do have an answer to that. The Bible indicates that Eve is the mother of all the living.

01:23:45

That's why Adam called his wife's name Eve. So all human beings are descended from Eve. All human beings are descended from Adam. According to Acts 17,

01:23:52

God's made from one man or from one blood, all nations. So we do have an answer to that. It's just, he didn't give it.

01:23:58

And then I think where he really lost it though was on the age of the earth because there he compromised. He knew what the

01:24:03

Bible said, but he also knew that there were a lot of scientists that disagreed with that. Even some of which were devout

01:24:10

Christians and he compromised on that. And that's when Clarence Darrow figured he'd established what he wanted to establish.

01:24:18

Yes, and I believe the name of that famous movie with Spencer Tracy was Inherit the Wind, right? Inherit the

01:24:24

Wind, which is a heavily, heavily fictionized version of what happened. It portrays the people of the town as mean -spirited, ignorant bigots.

01:24:34

Clarence Darrow himself said that was not true. He said he'd never met such nice people in the town of Dayton, Tennessee.

01:24:41

He was very gracious about them. So that play has generated, that's one of the lies.

01:24:47

That's generated a lot of misinformation about the Scopes trial. If you want the facts, go back and read the transcript, which is what

01:24:54

I did. And you'll find it's very different from the play. It's interesting that H .L.

01:24:59

Mencken would publicly resort to ridicule and mockery of William Jennings Bryant and exalt

01:25:08

J. Gresham Machen because they were both fundamentalists.

01:25:15

They were both, well, Machen was more, I'm not sure of William Jennings Bryant's theology, but Machen was obviously openly

01:25:25

Reformed. But I'm not sure why he would have favored

01:25:30

Machen that way, who was actually leading the revolt, for lack of a better term, against liberal

01:25:41

Christianity. Well, now that I'm thinking about or saying this out loud, I remember doing the voiceover that H .L.

01:25:50

Mencken despised the liberal version of Christianity because he just believed it was totally dishonest and hypocritical to deny things that if you are a

01:26:05

Christian, you should be standing up for. It was really his admiration of Machen's logical consistency and honesty and his brilliance that made him, uplifted him in that way.

01:26:22

I see, yeah. Now, William Jennings Bryant, he was theologically conservative, but he was politically liberal.

01:26:29

And so there might be some consistency there that he picked on. Oh, that's interesting. He was politically liberal and yet still wanted to have a man, a schoolteacher, politically punished in some way for teaching evolution in a school.

01:26:48

That's interesting. Well, the funny thing, really William Jennings Bryant wanted to, he was there to defend

01:26:54

Christianity. It wasn't about punishing scopes. He offered to pay scopes fine.

01:27:01

Really? It was $100. Oh, wow. Does any of that inherit the wind?

01:27:08

I don't think so, because it inherit the wind. It portrays him as kind of an ignorant guy.

01:27:13

He was just a Bible thumper, not really that smart, but really he was involved in politics.

01:27:19

He was well -known. I think he might've even run for president at one point, but he was politically savvy, although politically liberal for the time.

01:27:29

Now, obviously I don't want you to mention names unless they have made public statements that would prove what

01:27:37

I'm about to ask you, otherwise it would be slanderous. Sure. But the perpetuating and regurgitating of lies regarding scientists, regarding science by scientists, has really come to light probably more than any other time in my entire life during the whole

01:28:04

COVID crisis. And I thank God I found a doctor,

01:28:11

Dr. Joel Yeager of Heritage Family Health in Newmanstown, Pennsylvania, and he's got other locations as well.

01:28:19

Heritagefamilyhealth .org is his website. He is a conservative

01:28:25

Bible -believing Christian. He is theologically reformed, and he has been fighting against the health and scientific community for their endorsement of the vaccines for COVID and has written extensive articles on his website warning people as to why these vaccines are dangerous.

01:28:56

He has told me that any first -year medical student knows that those masks that they were promoting, that even

01:29:06

Fauci originally said, don't even bother wearing them, they're not going to do anything. Right. He later did an about -face and started wearing three of them.

01:29:16

Right. But he said that every first -year medical student knows that those don't do anything.

01:29:22

So he was so disgusted and infuriated by the whole health industry and medical community that he got a license for natural medicine, which he includes with his traditional medical practice.

01:29:42

And he still prescribes pharmaceutical items when necessary, when there's nothing else.

01:29:50

But he has done remarkable things in my own life, recommending supplements that have continually lowered my blood sugar and so on, berberine and cinnamon and so on.

01:30:05

But the reasoning, of course, has to be, at least in part, the fear of scientists and doctors of either the fines, during the mandates anyway, the fines they would have had, the fear of losing their practices, and with scientists, the lack of funding that they would get.

01:30:31

Am I going in the right direction here? Oh, yeah. I mean, yeah, the medical malpractice that happened in the last few years, it was insane.

01:30:40

And I actually had to stop reading about it because it was just so depressing. I did early on, because when

01:30:48

I saw them wearing masks for a virus that's 0 .1, you know, it's very, very tight.

01:30:54

It's about three times smaller than the holes in the really high -grade masks, the ones that have the tiniest holes.

01:31:01

And the virus is three times smaller. I knew that wasn't going to work. I mean, I'm an astrophysicist, but you don't have to be an astrophysicist to know that a hole that's much bigger than the object you're trying to block is going to get right through it.

01:31:12

I actually did a video recording. We have a video channel.

01:31:20

It's now on Rumble. It was on YouTube then. We still have it on YouTube. But I'd recorded these videos, and one of them

01:31:27

I did was on masks. And I thought, you know, I'll use this as an opportunity not just to hopefully give people some good medical information, but also to learn about the scientific method and how do we test these kinds of claims.

01:31:40

And so I went and looked at peer -reviewed medical literature and things like that, and I showed them the studies that had been done on masks.

01:31:47

And there have been many studies on masks and the fact that masks don't do much in the way of blocking viruses.

01:31:53

That's well -established. So that video got pulled from YouTube.

01:32:00

And they said, you can respond. You can challenge it. And I said, I do.

01:32:05

I said, can you show me anything in the peer -reviewed medical literature that disagrees with anything that I said in that video?

01:32:12

And of course they couldn't, because that's what I was doing. I was summarizing the peer -reviewed medical literature.

01:32:18

But nonetheless, they said, sorry. Well, they can do what they want. It's their platform. But that's when I took it and moved it over to Rumble, because Rumble allows you to say what you want to say within reason.

01:32:28

But yeah, it was just crazy. I hope that people have learned the lesson that when the government gets involved in science, it's never a good thing.

01:32:39

It's just never a good thing, especially when there's financial motivation to lie. And it didn't help that there are,

01:32:47

I mean, I'm sorry, but I have to deal with flat -earthers. I have to deal with people that claim we never went to the moon. And it didn't help that there was all this false information circulating, medical misinformation in the last few years.

01:32:59

And one of the things I've tried to say is, but look, guys, Pfizer had $33 billion worth of reasons to lie and say that their thing is perfectly safe, which now you can say, because they now have a list of side effects that includes sudden death as one of the side effects on their list.

01:33:17

But back then, you couldn't say that. Back then, I'd have gotten kicked off for saying that. But there's no motivation for having a conspiracy that the

01:33:28

Earth's flat or that we didn't go to the moon, things like that. There's no financial motive there. So follow the money is one of the things that I would encourage people to do when it comes to false science.

01:33:37

Is there a financial motive for lying? And if not, then it's probably more a question of how are we interpreting the data?

01:33:48

I think that most of the studies that Secularist produced, I think most of them, they're trying to be honest, but they're looking at it from a false presupposition.

01:33:57

That's my opinion. And what fields of science? Say again? In what fields of science do you think they're being honest?

01:34:07

In things like astronomy, where we don't have, you know, astronomers, we don't have money anyway.

01:34:12

We don't get government funding. I mean, we do get a little bit, but not a lot. I don't get any. But there's not a lot of funding to, there's pressure, for example, to find that a particular drug is effective and safe.

01:34:26

There is tremendous financial pressure to come to that conclusion. Regardless of whether or not it's true.

01:34:32

Whereas in astronomy, I think most astronomers, really, they're just trying to discover the truth, but a lot of them have a false worldview.

01:34:40

And that causes them to skew their, not their data necessarily, but their conclusions.

01:34:47

And you can see that in the recent exchange I had with Luke Barnes. I think he's been perfectly honest. I'm certainly being honest.

01:34:53

We have a disagreement about what the data means. And you can take a look and see our conversation in the interest research journal as one example of that.

01:35:01

Now, we mentioned earlier one of the Christians who is going to, who is on the roster of the

01:35:14

War of the Worldviews conference coming up September 5th and 6th in Nashville, Tennessee, Dr.

01:35:21

Marcus Ross. I believe there is some kind of financial risk for geologists, isn't there?

01:35:34

To go against the grain of the leftists and even brothers in Christ who are old earthers.

01:35:42

Depending on where your money's coming from, Dr. Marcus Ross was at Liberty University.

01:35:48

He's now started his own business, so he can say what he wants. He has that freedom now. As do I. If I were at a secular university, could

01:35:56

I say the things that I'm saying now? Maybe not. I probably wouldn't get tenure as a creationist at a secular university.

01:36:03

So there is some of that. And there are closet creationists at universities. I know some of them.

01:36:08

Obviously, I can't reveal their names. But there are some closet creationists. Yes, I believe in creation, but I can't publicly state it because then

01:36:15

I lose my funding. I lose my job. I lose the possibility of tenure. So that is a real motivation.

01:36:20

Of course, Ben Stein did that excellent movie on it, Expelled. Yes, that was quite a while ago. Yes, it was quite a while ago, but it's still relevant.

01:36:28

It still happens today. Yes, and I have heard stories.

01:36:33

Perhaps you could recount the ones that you're familiar with. With paleontologists who are being honest about their discoveries and were blackballed by their colleagues in paleontology.

01:36:50

I believe there was a woman who found actual meat on dinosaur bones or something like that.

01:36:59

And it totally disproved the idea that these animals died millions of years ago for that meat to actually still exist on the bone.

01:37:11

Yes, Mary Schweitzer. Mary Schweitzer discovered soft tissue in a T. rex femur, including what appear to be blood vessels.

01:37:19

Well, they're no doubt blood vessels. And what appear to be red blood cells still inside them. And I've seen the videos of the scientists taking that and it's still elastic.

01:37:28

It's amazing. And that's not going to last millions of years. But she was honest with her discovery and I credit her for that.

01:37:38

And she is an evolutionist, though. She still believes in the millions of years. So she's safe. She's touting the narrative.

01:37:45

But what they'll do with that is they'll say, well, there must be some unusual mechanism of preservation that's allowed soft tissue to remain for millions of years.

01:37:53

We don't know what it is, but that's the current paradigm there. So as long as you tout the narrative, you're generally safe.

01:38:01

And I have to say that in cosmology, it's becoming almost acceptable now to question the

01:38:09

Big Bang because so much data has come. We talked about some of it previously, but I have seen some papers in the secular literature that have challenged actually the

01:38:19

Big Bang and they got in there. And they're not by creationists. They're proposing an alternative secular view, a tired light model, for example.

01:38:27

And I thought, well, the good news is that that's being allowed. I appreciate that. That's the way science should be.

01:38:35

It should be open to different interpretations of the evidence. But it just depends. It really depends on where you're at, where your funding's coming from.

01:38:43

Yes, Cindy in Findlay, Ohio, just corrected me. She said that the soft tissue was in bones, in dinosaur bones.

01:38:53

And I think I was describing a drumstick or something. What it was is you have these fossils, and fossils are where minerals have come in and filled in all the holes in the bones.

01:39:06

And so you have a stone that's in the shape of a bone. And they found that when they dissolved away the outer portion of the fossil, there was still soft material on the inside.

01:39:13

So that's where that's coming from. Any other case? Well, you said that she was safe because she was still openly an evolutionist.

01:39:25

Correct. But didn't she have some kind of negative feedback from her colleagues? Wasn't there some kind of negative thing that happened?

01:39:34

I am not sure. But I know they found too many cases of that now for anyone to accuse her of fraud or anything like that.

01:39:42

She's discovering evidence that would not be expected. But the evolutionists, again, they've simply rolled that back and said, well, there must be some preserving agent, iron.

01:39:53

That doesn't even make any sense, but that's one of the things that's maybe the iron in the blood cells somehow has preserved the soft tissue.

01:39:59

And we've now found it in other dinosaurs as well. There's a Triceratops horn where they found soft tissue still inside it.

01:40:06

So there's been too many other cases to write that off as anything other than a genuine discovery of soft tissue in dinosaur brains.

01:40:15

Now, do you know of any other cases where evolutionists, secularists, scientists have made discoveries that made them unlike the paleontologist you just mentioned who made this soft tissue discovery, who began to question their evolution views and perhaps did get blackballed because of it?

01:40:41

I'm sure it's happened, but I don't have a list in front of me. I know Jerry Bergman has written a book on that subject,

01:40:47

Slaughter of the Dissidents, if people would like to look into the details of that, but I don't have a list. I don't have a list of names in front of me.

01:40:52

Sorry about that. Oh, that's okay. It has happened. And have you ever had conversations, and obviously this would involve you not mentioning names unless they have gone public with it, where people have expressed fear to you about being open about things that they know scientifically but can't talk about?

01:41:15

Yes, and in a sense, when I was going through grad school, I was in that category.

01:41:22

I was a creationist. I knew that there was a lot of evidence for creation. I did not feel the freedom to be able to talk about that.

01:41:30

I did talk about it with some of my fellow students, but in my early years,

01:41:36

I was naive. I thought, you know, it's a university. They'll allow discussion of these things. Well, you got to be real careful about that.

01:41:43

And towards the end, I became very careful because I'd heard of these cases of people coming out as a creationist and then that you don't get your doctorate.

01:41:53

That was my number one concern when I was standing before my dissertation committee.

01:41:58

And to be fair, I don't know that any of them would have blackballed me. I don't know that.

01:42:04

To my knowledge, they're good people. I liked my advisor very much. We worked well together.

01:42:09

He probably would have been okay with it. He would have thought it was odd that I was a creationist, but I don't think he would have stopped me.

01:42:15

But the point is you don't know. You don't know that somebody doesn't have it out against creationists, and so you have to be very careful.

01:42:22

And I hate to say this, but I recommend to students who are getting their doctorates, it's wise to, during the time you're getting that doctorate, be very careful in what you say about your belief system because there are some people that are just adamantly against creationists.

01:42:38

All right, we have to go to our final break. And once again, if you have a question, submit it to chrisorensen at gmail .com.

01:42:46

Give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence. Please don't go away. We'll be right back. When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

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01:47:27

Wednesday. And once again, we have time for maybe a couple of more questions from our listeners.

01:47:36

Our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence.

01:47:44

We have another question from Joey in New Rochelle, New York, who wrote to us earlier, and he says,

01:47:56

Hey Chris, on the point you just discussed, can you ask Dr. Lyle how he handled his dissertation topic choice, an approach to avoid the potential conflict?

01:48:09

I'm wondering if he chose a topic that was not relevant to age of the universe, or if he simply avoided the issue.

01:48:18

That's a great question. I did exactly that. I picked a topic that was not highly relevant to timescale to the creation versus evolution.

01:48:28

I picked solar subsurface weather. And there are a number of reasons for that. It's an interesting topic, but it was something that is not heavily influenced by ideas of origins, ideas of millions of years.

01:48:41

It's just good observational science. And that's what I stuck to. And so that's the way I recommend that.

01:48:47

And keep in mind too, for students who are maybe in the situation where they're in grad school now and they're taking a science exam or something like that, you're being tested on your knowledge of what you've been taught.

01:48:58

And so it's perfectly, and you can word things in ways that are perfectly true, but don't violate your conscience.

01:49:04

You can say, for example, that it is generally believed that the Earth's 4 .5 billion years old. That's a true statement.

01:49:10

Not that the Earth's 4 .5 billion years old, but that it's generally believed. And so there are ways you can say things like that.

01:49:16

And so I learned how to use that kind of diplomatic language. I hate to say that.

01:49:22

I wish we could just be honest. But the Bible does indicate that we're to be wise. Wise as serpents, in fact.

01:49:29

And that is to be very careful in what information you reveal. Frankly, it's none of your professor's business what you believe about origins anyway.

01:49:38

That's not relevant to whether or not you can do science. But yeah, I picked a topic that was largely neutral with respect to origins.

01:49:46

Okay, we have Lily in Santee, South Carolina, who says, please forgive me if you discussed this earlier, because I'm just tuning in.

01:49:56

But I was wondering if it is true that there are a number of secularist scientists who have come to openly abandon

01:50:05

Darwinian evolution, even though they are not Christians. Yes, that happens.

01:50:12

It's not super common, but it happens. And there are folks like Michael Behe, who does believe in evolution, but he does not believe the standard mechanism can possibly do it.

01:50:22

The standard mechanism that's supposed to drive evolution is a combination of mutations and natural selection.

01:50:28

Michael Behe, who does believe in evolution, has argued that that mechanism cannot possibly work. And he did that in his book,

01:50:34

Darwin's Black Box, which, even though it's from an evolutionist perspective, I highly recommend it. It's a great book. And there have been some who have doubted

01:50:42

Darwinian evolution, but it's kind of like, what else? I mean, that's the standard position if you're going to not deny biblical creation.

01:50:51

But, of course, there are other religious views that are not Christian that embrace some kind of creation, so that's a possibility as well.

01:50:59

It does happen. It's not super common. And I remember years ago,

01:51:05

Ken Ham was promoting a book, Bones of Contention.

01:51:12

That's a great book. Yeah, can you tell us about that author and what the agenda is behind that?

01:51:18

It's Marvin Lubinow, and it's one of the best books I've read on human non -evolution.

01:51:24

What he does is he goes through and looks at all the fossil evidence that's been discovered up to this point in time. And he's updated the book within the last few years as well, so I actually have both versions.

01:51:34

But he goes through and shows that of all the fossils that we've found, there is no evidence of anything in between a human being and an ape.

01:51:46

There is no evidence that modern human beings have evolved from apes or ape -like ancestors, however you want to put it.

01:51:52

There are certain features that human beings have that apes do not. The way our teeth are structured is different from apes.

01:51:59

Apes tend to have very large molars, and the shape of their teeth is different. Theirs makes a

01:52:04

U -shape where it's parallel on the sides, whereas ours are shaped like a parabola. And so you can tell. The bone that we have on the upper part of our nose, the bridge of your nose is bone.

01:52:14

The lower portion of your nose is cartilage, and that decays away. But when you see a skull and you see the bridge of the nose, that's a human being.

01:52:22

So there you go, Chris. That's one way you can prove that you're not an ape, is because you wear glasses. You wear glasses.

01:52:28

Apes cannot wear glasses. I've seen chimpanzees wearing glasses. It's a wonderful book.

01:52:38

I highly recommend Bones of Contention. There are ethnic variations of human beings.

01:52:45

Like most of the ethnicities today, it would be hard to recognize it in the skeleton, but there are some ethnicities like Neanderthals.

01:52:52

Neanderthals are human beings. They tended to be a little stockier than modern human beings, and their brow ridges were a little thicker.

01:53:00

They tended to have a recessed chin. But all their characteristics are human, and likewise with Cro -Magnon and so on.

01:53:05

So it's a very good book. It's a little techie, but I think it's a page -turner. It's a fun read.

01:53:13

I recall being a child and believing in Darwinian evolution.

01:53:22

One of the reasons is that it was actually taught as fact, believe it or not, folks, in the

01:53:29

Catholic parochial school where I was a student for the first eight grades of my education.

01:53:39

And also I can recall as a young boy going to the

01:53:45

Museum of Natural History, and I remember seeing a display with the skulls of primates developing and slowly but surely getting closer and closer and closer to the final skull, which was human.

01:54:13

And I thought that was just, as a kid, I was saying, well, there's all the proof we need that humans evolved from apes.

01:54:20

But those skulls weren't even real, I found out later, and that these paleontologists,

01:54:28

I don't know if they themselves are sculptors that do this or if they hire sculptors, but they'll take a tiny fragment of a bone, a skull bone, and turn it into a complete skull.

01:54:42

This is just total fraudulent behavior, isn't it? One of the most outrageous examples of that is the so -called

01:54:50

Nebraska man. This was based on a single tooth. And from that tooth, the artist reconstructed a complete skeleton and then put hair on it and everything.

01:55:01

And so, and a family. Not only the Nebraska man, but his family, they're all depicted hunched over as if you could tell that from a tooth, which later turned out to be, they now know it's actually the tooth of a kind of pig.

01:55:16

So it wasn't even a primate. What an extrapolation.

01:55:22

And that's just one example. And there are lots like that. The history of the evolutionist interpretations of human origins is just an utter catastrophe.

01:55:32

It's really a disaster. And a lot, by the way, a lot of those were used at the Scopes trial. A lot of those, you know, pelt down man and things that we know today are human, like Neanderthals, those were presented as evidence of ape men at the

01:55:45

Scopes trial. And they pointed out, look how the Neanderthal skull is a little smaller than ours because the brain's still developing.

01:55:50

We now know that's false. We know that Neanderthals on average had a larger brain capacity than modern humans.

01:55:56

They're just a variation of human. And so that stuff is now known to be false, but it persuaded a lot of people, at least the scientists at the

01:56:04

Scopes trial were persuaded by evidence that we now know is false. I can remember years ago, seeing a hilarious standup comedy bit by comedian

01:56:15

Paul Reiser, who was star of a very popular sitcom,

01:56:21

Made About You. He is a Jewish gentleman, and he was telling this joke about a couple of Jewish guys in heaven saying, can you believe what the scientists are talking about down on earth?

01:56:36

They're saying that we evolved from apes. And one of the proofs they got are Murray Goldstein's bones, his skeleton.

01:56:44

Remember Murray, the guy that was always walking hunched over with the bad posture? Oh yeah, you're kidding me.

01:56:50

He was mocking the whole idea of this. But we have two minutes left, and I'd like you to just summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today.

01:57:03

The whole point of our ministry is we want people to have confidence in the Bible as the word of God. And I use science as confirmatory, as supplementary.

01:57:11

I don't try to prove the Bible by science, because science is not a greater standard than the

01:57:17

Bible. The Bible is the standard by which we know that science has some usefulness. It's because God created the universe and upholds it in a consistent way that we can do things like science.

01:57:26

And so if you understand that, then you realize any scientific discovery is confirmation of biblical creation.

01:57:33

Even if they claim it's an evolutionist, that it supports evolution, they could not have made the discovery except God upholds his universe in a consistent way, the way the

01:57:42

Bible tells us. And so the whole foundation of science is based on creation. And that's why

01:57:48

I was able to make some successful predictions about what the James Webb Space Telescope discovered. The Bible tells me something about human nature.

01:57:55

It tells us that men love darkness rather than light, because their deeds are evil. And so people are very reluctant to believe the

01:58:01

Bible, because if you believe the Bible, suddenly you realize that God is rightly angry at you for your sin.

01:58:08

And although the Bible says that God is merciful and is willing to save anyone who repents and trusts in him, human beings, we're proud, we're arrogant, we're boastful, we're wicked.

01:58:19

And that's why you have all these alternatives to biblical creation. People do not want to bow to the knee to Christ. So what

01:58:25

I try to do is show people that, no, the science does confirm what the Bible teaches. You can trust the Bible. It's God's word.

01:58:31

It's what makes science possible. Most of the founding fathers of science were Christians and had great confidence in the

01:58:38

Bible. And the Lord honored that by allowing them to make these wonderful discoveries. And so that's where science comes from.

01:58:44

It comes from a Christian creationist worldview. Well, I want to repeat your website for our listeners, biblicalscienceinstitute .com,

01:58:54

biblicalscienceinstitute .com, for more details on the Conference War of the

01:59:00

Worldviews that Jason Lyle and others are featured on the speaking roster

01:59:06

September 5th and 6th, go to tennesseeapologetics .org

01:59:13

forward slash waroftheworldviews and then last but not least, the conference on November 30th, which is going to be held at Colts Neck Community Church in Colts Neck, New Jersey.

01:59:28

That information can be found at coltsneckchurch .com, coltsneckchurch .com.

01:59:35

Don't forget to listen to my interview with Pastor Chris Durkin of Colts Neck Community Church tomorrow.

01:59:41

I want to thank you for doing such a brilliant job today, Dr. Lyle, as you always do. I want to thank everybody who listened.

01:59:49

I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater