LOST AUDIO- Found! Mormon engages with Jeff Durbin

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Are you LDS? I am. Yeah? Why do you believe Joseph is a prophet? What's that?

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Sorry. The Holy Ghost is proclaiming to you. The Holy Ghost is proclaiming to you? And by the proofs you shall know them.

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Okay. So... Have you read the Book of Mormon? I sure have. Yes. Have you prayed?

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Yeah, and I have prayed to God for truth, absolutely. And my test for Joseph was God's test for Joseph. Not to pray about it, but to test him by Scripture.

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And to test his prophecies. Would you consider a false prophecy bad fruit?

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Some of Isaiah's prophecies have a clear guess that that's a good or bad. Well, we're not talking about a prophecy that is yet to come.

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We're talking about a prophecy that had a specific time indicator that he failed on. He prophesied about December 4th.

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Yeah, he prophesied... Guys, this is not going to go anywhere, because each side will go away more convinced than the other.

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Sure. Than they were before they started. I guess I would ask you that question, because I heard your wife is a

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Holy Ghost. Well, I have heard people say that, well, he's not a prophet because this prophecy didn't come true.

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I also know that there were...

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Sometimes there are conditional prophecies that say, if this happens, that will happen. I don't know, but I can say this.

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I can take on faith. How many times have you read the

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Bible? How many times have I read the Bible? Yeah, cover your head. I don't know. Best guess. Oh, I couldn't even tell you.

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I don't know. I really don't know. Cover your head. Can't even guess. Yeah, I can't. I don't even know. I'm a pastor. Less than 10, more than 10.

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Oh, more than 10. I have no idea. What faith do you believe in? Just Christian. Yeah, my church is a

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Christian church. We're Reformed Orthodox. Well, what is the name by which your congregation is called?

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Oh, there's a specific name of our church by name? Apologies. Okay. Alright. I know nothing about your faith.

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Well, it's just Christian, historic, Reformed Christianity. Well, there's a lot of things in there.

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Historic. Historic as in prior to AD 300 with apostles and prophets?

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Well, I'm confused. Do you mean, do you believe that prior to 300 AD they had apostles and prophets still active in the church?

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They did. Actually, until the last, the apostles got killed off. Which would have been end of first century.

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Along about 300 you had Constantine got involved. He wasn't considered an apostle.

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Constantine wasn't, I would not call him Christian. But he called himself

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Christian. Yeah, sure. But you said up to 300

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AD there were apostles. No, I did not say that. I said there's a lot of things that changed, that had changed by 300

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AD. He set up his church. He set up 12 apostles. When Judas fell, they called another apostle.

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It seems to me they intended to have apostles. Does your church have any apostles today? Right. Apostolos, the

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Greek word means messenger or envoy. And an apostle in the

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New Testament church had to be an eyewitness to the resurrected Jesus. That was a requirement. Paul was eyewitness by Revelation?

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No, he witnessed the actual living Savior, Jesus. Go back and reread.

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Go back and reread. So you're saying that Jesus didn't appear before... Jesus appeared to him after the resurrection.

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Right. So this is what I said to you a moment ago. And a requirement to be an apostle in the New Testament is you had to be a witness to the resurrected

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Jesus. Okay, that's fine. Right. But a key thing here that's important to recognize is that what I was getting across to you was historic or orthodox or reformed.

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It's just that the same teaching of God and the gospel has existed since New Testament times. And that's why we're here tonight, though, is we care about you guys.

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And we're concerned because this church teaches a different God and a different gospel. Well...

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You'd agree that you and I believe in a different God, correct? I don't know what God you believe in. Well, the God of the

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Bible. One and only true and living God. None before, none after. Okay. Right. Do you believe that there were gods before God?

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There were gods before God. Do you believe that? The Bible says not. The Bible says before God there is none other.

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Right. Only one God. That's right. Now, you're talking... Now, I think

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I know where you're headed. And I think you're missing the point. Jesus is our

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Lord and Savior. I didn't really understand your answer there. Just so I understand where you're coming from. I asked you a question. It was, do you believe there were gods before God?

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And I did not answer that question. Because I see where you're trying to take it. And you're missing the point.

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Jesus is our Lord. His Father is the only one we worship. And we worship Him in the name of Jesus.

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So you don't worship Jesus? No. We worship the Father in the name of Jesus. So you don't worship

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Jesus? We don't believe in Trinity. So you don't worship Jesus? Jesus is our Lord and Savior.

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So at the end of Matthew, where the Apostles are bowing down and worshiping Jesus, and where Thomas worshiped

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Jesus, in Revelation where Jesus... I will honor

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Him as my Savior. Would you worship Him as they do in Revelation? He taught us to pray to the

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Father. And when somebody said, good master, he said, why are you calling me good? There is one good and that is

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God. He's reminding them of who He is. No. He's talking about His Father. He prayed to His Father.

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As a man. You believe in the Trinity. You believe in the Trinity. I do not believe that that's a scriptural doctrine. And your understanding of the

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Trinity is... Is three and what? Three persons, one being. Yes. And that's a place where we disagree.

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And you believe in three gods of this earth. The three gods of this earth. I don't know what you mean by that.

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Do you believe that there are three gods of this earth? What do you mean by the question? I've never heard that phrase before.

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Do you believe that the Father is a separate God from Jesus, and that Jesus is a separate God from the

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Holy Spirit? They're one in purpose. They're one in intent. Would you agree with Joseph in History of the Church where he says these three represent three distinct persons and three gods?

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Since I'm not familiar with that quote, I'd have to read it in context. Sure. That's fair. That's fair. He said many men say there's only one

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God. But my point being, so you have just said that you believe that all three are one body.

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Three persons, one God. So, no. I do not believe... No. I believe in a unified council which has

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God the Father. Just to help you out. I didn't say three persons, one body. What do you believe? Three persons, one being, not body.

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I don't believe that God has a body of flesh and bones, tangible beings. So, what happened to Jesus' body when he was resurrected?

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Well, Jesus... Right. It says in the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God, the Word was God, and God became flesh.

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So, he took on something he had not had before in the Incarnation in Philippians 2 where he says,

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Have this mind in you which is also in Christ Jesus, who being in the form of God did not consider equality with God a thing to be grasped, but he emptied himself, and he became a servant, and he humbled himself to be viewed as a god.

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That's what Jesus did in the Incarnation. But Jesus clearly taught that God is spirit, and spirit does not have flesh and bones.

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Well... That's what he said. I suppose if you come to think of... There are different passages, various passages...

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Well, how would you interpret God as spirit? How would you interpret that? If you're talking about how

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Jesus was talking about to the Samaritan army, are you talking about how

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Paul is talking to the Romans? I guess it's a little bit different context there. Well, when

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Jesus is describing God's nature, that he is spirit, and then he says, Spirit does not have flesh and bones.

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So, Jesus' definition of the Father was that he is spirit. I would question that interpretation, and I would question that context because...

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I'd encourage you to look at it. And so would I. Because I've seen... First, I have seen some strange translations of the

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Bible. Do you read the Greek, either? I don't read Greek. Then how do you know they're strange?

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Because they don't agree with four or five other translations. In what sense? Give me an example.

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The Living Bible says... Paraphrase, right. It's paraphrased. It's not a good translation.

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It's a dynamic paraphrase. Because people... You have interpretive language, right? You cannot translate without either gaining or losing meaning.

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That's the nature of translation. Sure, yeah. If you want to get the sharpest, you've got to go back to the original. Yeah. Yeah.

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Okay, so you understand that. Yeah. But you just have made a specific reference to some strange...

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There are. What specific verses? Example. Example. Somebody came up to me once and said...

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Explain to me about the devils marrying men. I said, huh?

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Where is that in the Bible? And he brought up his Living Bible. And the verse said,

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And the sons of God married the daughters of men. Right. The Genesis. Yeah. And the

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Living Bible had interpreted the sons of God as devils. That is an extreme example.

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I was wondering how that would have to do with any kind of theological import of what I was talking about.

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Well, what I'm saying is, since I don't know what Bible you're quoting from, and I'm most familiar with King James.

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All translations will say God is spirit. King James says God is spirit. Yeah, but like they say... In the King James, Jesus says,

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Spirit hath not flesh and bones as you see me have. Oh, okay. So now we're talking about the context.

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We are talking about the resurrected Lord appearing to the apostles after the resurrection, and Thomas thought that he was seeing a ghost.

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Right. And he said... And Jesus had a body at that time. He still has a body. Yeah, thought he had seen a spirit.

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Yeah, and so... Right, which is why Jesus says God is spirit. No, he said...

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Say words. Touch me, handle me. And see. For a spirit hath not flesh and bones as you see that I have.

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Yeah. And that's when he sat down and ate with them. That's when Thomas had said, Ho kurios mu, ho theos mu, and he worshipped him.

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Yeah. I don't know. I think it's translated, Oh, Lord, my God, or something like that. Ho kurios mu, ho theos mu is my

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Lord. Say word. Use the Septuagint translation of Yahweh, kurios. So he's worshipping him as Yahweh, God.

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Yeah, and you probably are aware that we consider Jehovah as Jesus Christ.

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Right. But we do not believe that Jehovah was the name of the Father. Right. Except, what would you do with passages like Isaiah 43, where it says,

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Before me there was no Elohim formed, neither shall there be after me. And that's Jehovah saying that.

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Okay. That's what I would want to check the translation on. Because they're synonymous.

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Lord and God are synonymous. Yes. But when you say before, are you talking about prior in time, or are you talking about in precedence?

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Well, in his eternality. That's one that I would need to, that's one I would want to read two or three different translations.

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Well, I'll give it to you in Isaiah 43, 10. Anyway, it is not my intent to have a debate, but I would say this.

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Well, I'll read it to you so you can get that. It says, Hear my witnesses, declares Yahweh, Jehovah.

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This is the NASB, for literal word for word. And my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me, and understand that I am he.

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Before me there was no God formed, and there will be none after me. I even I am the

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Lord, and there is no Savior besides me. Even from eternity I am he. So the context here is saying,

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I'm the only God from all eternity, none before, none after. And... Now, just real quick, how does that fit?

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Okay. Considering Joseph's revelation. Are you willing to take this in context, the context

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I'm trying to share with you? Sure. Yeah, I'm willing to listen. Okay. Luke, that's not water.

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One of the definitions of, as I understand it, I'm not an expert, is that Jehovah is self -existent.

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It comes from the Hebrew verb to be, akiah, which means I am, I was, I will ever be. Okay, thank you.

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Because that's, it's one thing to hear that that's a translation, but it's another thing to know. Because I do not study.

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I have learned many things, but I have not had occasion to learn Hebrew and Greek yet. Well, I'm not a scholar.

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A word here and there, yes. Yeah, I'm not a scholar. I'm still speaking myself. I do like to use

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Young's literal translation. Yeah, I'm listening. There are a bunch of good ones.

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Yeah. Some of them, in my opinion, are better than, better than in quality, but less accepted than the

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King James. Among Mormons, you mean? No. I'm talking, I'm talking about Christian in general.

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In general. Yeah. Among Mormons, the official one that's used is the

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King James. Yeah, or the JST. Most of the scripture side,

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JST is used to, as, to help interpreting, but generally it's the

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King James. Sure. Now, just to get, just to get back to the text, specific to the text.

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What I was going to say is, I'd like to say, if you'll accept, now, you may choose not to,

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I'm willing to listen, I'm willing to listen. People have asked, whence did

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God come? Generally, theology as a whole does not have an answer for that question.

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What theology? What theology? I have never heard of any

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Christian theology that had an answer to the question, where did God come from? He's self -existent from all eternity.

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Okay. Psalm 90, verse 2, Deuteronomy 6, 4. Okay. And, okay.

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Now, Just real quick, just the passage is rich, you've sort of answered that. No, no, let me go on. Sure. It's my turn to talk.

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Oh, sure, I'm listening to you. Okay, so, now, God gives to men knowledge according to their ability to understand.

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If I go to a five -year -old and tell him, this mountain came out of the earth ten million years ago, he doesn't even know what a year is.

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As far as he is concerned, that mountain has been there forever. As far as the

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Indian tribe that's lived at the base of that mountain for five hundred years, or a thousand years, that mountain has been there forever.

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As far as we in this mortal time, time only is measured up to man.

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To God, it's... He's outside of time. He's outside of time. Yeah. If, in some degree of eternity, he had a starter beginning, it does not concern us.

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Now, people make... Am I still... I'm still talking. Well, you said you made a couple points there already. No, let me go on.

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Okay, all right. Okay, so, outside of our span of existence, from the time that God created us as spirits to the time...

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the end of all ends is what concerns us. If there were things outside of that, that, they are not really relevant to our eternal progression.

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And the question about were there gods before the

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Father of Jesus Christ? In my limited knowledge,

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I don't even know what the beginning of, as spoken by John, was. Well, God would answer it this way. Before me there was no god formed, neither shall there be after me.

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I am the first and I am the last. Besides me there is no god. He asks the question. He says, Is there a god besides me?

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Indeed, there is no other god. I know not one. On this earth there's... The god... Well, he answers that too. He answers that too.

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He says, He is the god, the only one. In the heavens and on the earth there is no other. In the heavens and on the earth.

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He says this. He says, Is there... Let me finish. He says, Is there a god besides me? Indeed, there is no other god.

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I know not one. He says he doesn't even know of any other gods besides himself. But Joseph taught, and you'll agree with this, that there was a council of gods, and in the beginning they came together and they concocted and prepared a plan to create the world and to people it, and that God himself was once as we are now and is an exalted man who sits enthroned in yonder heavens.

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That is the great secret. He says, You've got to learn to become gods yourselves the same way all gods have done before you. Now, that is antithetical to everything you see in scripture about who

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God is. And my concern for you in that is that Isaiah says, To the law and to the testimony. If they do not speak according to this word, it's because they have no light in them.

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So the test of a prophet is not them, and I understand your experience and I wouldn't discount that, but the test of a prophet is not

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I've prayed about it and I've had this feeling. Because guess what? I've prayed about your church too, and the Holy Spirit has testified something different than me.

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But the problem here is this, is the Holy Spirit that testifies to me that Joseph Smith is a false prophet has confirmed that through his word which he already spoke.

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My encouragement to you is to think about this. I would say that when you prayed, you probably were not honest, but be that as it may.

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We will let you rest on yours, but you wanted to say something. Go ahead. I can tell you that I absolutely am honest in seeking truth, and that the key thing here was this, is that the

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Holy Spirit confirmed through his word which he spoke that Joseph Smith was a false prophet, because Joseph contradicts what

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God has already said. God has already spoken in time 2 ,000 years before Joseph came, and what he said about himself is flatly contradicted by Joseph's revelation, which in Deuteronomy 13,

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God tells the Israelites to protect them. Even if somebody comes and has signs or wonders, but they lead you after a different God, that's a false prophet.

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And Isaiah again says to the law and to the testimony, if they do not speak according to this word, because they have no light in them.

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So the way that you test a prophet, even Jesus, is you test them according to what they say about God.

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John says in 2 John 9, he says, if anyone goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, he does not have

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God. And that was spoken to people who were at the early beginnings of Gnosticism, they were denying that Jesus was both

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God and also flesh, you see. And so a denial of the nature of God, John says, if they go too far and don't abide in the teaching of Christ, they don't have

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God. So my encouragement is this, is that if Joseph comes and has a different God and a different gospel, who are you going to accept,

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Joseph or God? The creeds.

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Develop the creeds. A lot of the... I'm confused. Well, actually... A lot of the leaders were like, they changed their

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God. Well, actually, the Nicene Council, I realize, was many centuries later.

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Where have you been taught this? Where have you been taught that... No, it's historical. Look, okay, I'm just confused.

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Because I've heard this a couple times over the last year, where is this Constantine... What do you think the

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Council of Nicaea was about? What do you think that was about? The Council of Nicaea was called to decide what constituted true

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Christianity. On what specific issue? The nature of God. What part of it was nature of God?

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Because what reason? What happened? Because there were a lot of different churches that were spread out. No, it's not just that.

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I'm trying to remember because it's been some time since I looked it up. It's called specifically to refute the

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Arian heresy that created two gods. And what happened was that you had

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Arius of Alexandria coming in and he was teaching a different god. He was denying the Trinity, which is what the

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Christians had always been teaching. The Christians have not always been teaching the Trinity. Have you read

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Polycarp, John's disciple? No, I have not. Clement of Rome? No. Ignatius? Clement of Rome, I have encountered some of his writings.

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Ignatius, I have encountered some of his writings. Irenaeus? Irenaeus. Tertullian? A lot of those...

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Tertullian, wasn't he the one that after the Council of Nicaea said... He was in the second century and Nicaea was hundreds of years later.

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So it wasn't Tertullian, it was Tertullius? I don't know. Well, what

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I'm telling you here is that you're seeming to say that the Council of Nicaea brought together a thing on the nature of God.

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The Council of Nicaea was, in fact, look it up with an unbiased eye.

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Read about it in Google or answers .com. Sir, just to be respectful, any reading of what happened in the

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Council of Nicaea is easy to do unbiased. It's just the facts are the facts. This is what they came together for. This is what they were talking about. And there was politicking and lobbying over the different views of the different groups over what would be the official, quote,

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Christian view. Well, sir, that's actually not what was happening. What was happening was you had somebody who was coming in teaching a different view on the nature of God than Christians had ever taught and it was being cast down as a heritage.

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Again, you say that Christians never taught. And again, I don't believe it. Well, let me ask you a question.

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Tertullian. What did Tertullian defend against? I have not read on the Council of Nicaea in a year.

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Let's go closer to the time of Jesus. Let's talk about Tertullian, 2nd century. I don't know Tertullian. I don't know him.

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How about Polycarp? Have you ever read of Polycarp? John's disciple? I have enough studying the scriptures that I have without studying people that I don't know whether they were inspired or not.

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Gotcha. So let's go to the text of scripture. So if God says that he's the only God, none before, none after... Okay.

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You've said your point. You've made that point. Sure. We're not going to convince you. Leave that point.

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Well, you haven't answered it, so I'm just kind of curious for an answer. I did it. And my answer was...

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How does that answer... My answer was that as far as we in this span of eternities from what the

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Bible calls the beginning, which I will leave that up to interpretation, to whenever, we deal only with God.

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Now, the question was... Real quick, real quick. I think you're confusing what I was asking.

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No, no. I know you're asking. I'm asking about the eternity before the beginning. Enough. We do not know the details on that stuff.

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We do not need to know the details. Psalm 90, verse 2 is the details. From everlasting to everlasting, you are God. And it's literally from eternity...

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Enough is enough. I said I know where you're coming from. You know where I'm coming from. Enough. Go on.

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It ceases when two people start repeating and repeating and repeating. Well, I can give you a new one just now.

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Psalm 90, verse 2. I need to get some food in there. Okay. I'm sorry. Well, hey,

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I'd love to chat with you some more. My number's on here. Maybe you can send me some e -mails. You can discuss some more with me. Maybe sometime when

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I can pay. Okay. Actually, I don't mind taking that. Okay. I think we are...

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Excuse me. I think we're... If we continue as we are, we will each go away more convinced that we know and the other one is wrong.

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To me, the fruits are not... I don't know.

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most evident in the prophecies. The fruits are inevitable what happens when people apply the teachings.

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Now, on that basis, there are some good fruits over virtually every faith

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I have ever encountered. So I have... Your main test for you is just fruit.

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Well, there's more to it than that, but there's a lot of things. Um... I know what it's like to ask questions of the

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Lord and get answers. I... have some little knowledge of the

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Scriptures. Yes, I've read... I don't know how many times I've read the Bible either. There's probably...

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I'm sure it's at least a score. New Testament, I'm sure it's a 3 score. Book of Mormon, probably a 3 score.

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I don't know it. I don't keep track of it. Um... I do know

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Christians who... Well... Changing subject, but you'll see how it ties in.

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In the 1920s, somebody wrote out what constituted the fundamental

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Christian beliefs. It became the core of what the Evangelist Church...

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Evangelists teach. Uh... Bible, the only word of God. Uh...

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Accepting of the Nicene Creed. Uh... So on. That... I'm talking about the 1920s, something recent.

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Um... I have known some people who are so dogmatic in that that they say that where the

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Bible says that pi is equal to 3 and science says it's equal to 3 .1,

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they have a problem with that. There have been... There have been some people that have been so dogmatic they try getting laws passed that define pi as 3 because that's what's in the

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Bible. Um... I'm sorry, I'm getting lost. I'm trying to figure out where you're going.

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Where I'm going is that as long as Christians are so dogmatic and so fixed on their own prior creed, their own private creeds, that they fail to recognize others who follow

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Jesus who they're worshiping. You realize, of course, though, that I'm not coming here tonight quoting a creed to you, but I'm coming here to talk to you about Christ.

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But you are saying that you don't believe that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints is

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Christian. You're saying you do not believe that we worship Christ. That is what you're saying. You would fall on,

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I believe, what Paul says in 2 Corinthians 11 .4, that you follow another Jesus, a false one. Because he's

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Satan's brother, he's a created God, he is one God among many gods, you can become one one day.

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And you don't understand the context of what you're talking about. Okay, then let's talk about that. Did Jesus create

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Satan? No, no. Let me ask you a direct question. Jesus did not. Did Jesus create Satan? No. Okay, so Colossians 1 .16

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says that he did. It says, but for by him were all things created in the heavens and on the earth, visible and invisible.

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That's my point, yes. Let me finish. Whether they be thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities, that's the biblical word for angels.

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Colossians 1 .16 says that Jesus created Satan. Your Jesus is Satan's brother. God the father is the father of all the spirits.

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But Jesus, according to Colossians 1 .16 created Satan. But you believe that God and Jesus are the same being.

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Same being, yes, one being. So hence you come to questions of definitions. Well, that's a direct.

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Notice we have an answer here. Colossians 1 .16 says that Jesus created Satan. You believe this. No, God created

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Satan. Well, again, let me show you Colossians 1 .16. No, no. You don't want to see it. Please understand, right now,

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I am having trouble keeping one thought together. I'm on a diet that says

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I eat every two hours. Okay. It has been four hours since I ate. Okay, no problem. I am very, this is a very uncomfortable thing.

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I enjoy discussing beliefs, sharing beliefs without trying to persuade people.

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I do, I would say, Do you go on a mission? Yes. Yes, I serve a mission. Would you try to persuade people on your mission? I presented the truth and asked them to ask

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God about it. I, when, if I would try to persuade someone on my mission, it was as productive as it's been.

29:19

That's not, because, What about Paul when he went to the synagogues and he refuted the Jews in the synagogues?

29:25

Was that wrong? No, it was not wrong. Okay, so you see, this is what people, but you're not feeling well, so we should continue later. It is not, that is, that is correct.

29:32

Let's talk later. Perhaps. Okay? I'm Jeff, by the way. Take care. Bless you. Bless you, man. Merry Christmas.

29:37

I'm Paul. Merry Christmas, guys. Yeah. My email's in the back of the room. You can contact me. We'll just chat over time.

29:43

We can do that. Okay. But like I say, this is probably not a good time and it's certainly not a good service.