January 20, 2021 Show with Doug Wilson on “The Gods of Civil Unrest & Jesus Mobs”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours and we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions and now here's your host

Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon

Cumberland County Pennsylvania Lake City Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com

this is Chris Arnzen your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 20th day of January 2021 inauguration day which many will view as a day that will remain in infamy and we have a guest returning to the program today

I'm thrilled to have him back he will be familiar to many of our listeners if not most his name is

Doug Wilson a conservative reformed and evangelical theologian he is pastor at Christ Church in Moscow Idaho a faculty member at New Saint Andrews College an author and speaker founder of Canon Press host of the

Applied Theology Podcast or as he calls it a Plodcast and blogger at blog and may blog and today we are going to address the gods of civil unrest and Jesus mobs which is a blog article a very lengthy a blog article that Doug recently wrote in reaction to the storming of the

Capitol recently and I am conducting this interview by the urging the enthusiastic and excited urging of my dear friend who

I've interviewed many times in this program Dr. Joseph C. Moorcraft III the pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church in Cumming, Georgia and although Dr.

Moorcraft and Doug have not seen eye to eye on certain theological issues

Dr. Moorcraft was utterly blown away by this article even to the point as his wife

Becky put to the point of tears and he enthusiastically encouraged me to read it and to book

Doug to discuss this subject today and also that was later confirmed the importance of this article was later confirmed watching the dividing line right after that and hearing my guest and my mutual friend

Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries also enthusiastically plug the article but it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Trip and Zion Radio Doug Wilson great to be with you thanks for the invitation and if you could before we get into our discussion tell our listeners about Christchurch in Moscow, Idaho.

So Moscow, Idaho is up in the chimney of Idaho up in the panhandle it's a very beautiful part of the country and I've been the pastor of Christchurch here for 40 plus years.

It's a growing congregation of very cheerful saints and I'm very privileged to minister here.

And how would you describe the church theologically? I would say we are I tell people that we are

Presbyterians but we're the kind of Presbyterians who believe the Bible so well obviously you are thinking or being prepared for the initial knee -jerk reaction that many have because they immediately will think of the

PCUSA because many people are typically unfamiliar with other

Presbyterian denominations that are very faithful to the scriptures like the Orthodox Presbyterian Church and the

Reformed Presbyterian Church in the United States and in varying degrees the

Presbyterian Church in America but and there are others as well of course but my confessional commitment would be summed up by the

Westminster Confession of Faith. Great and you are a part of a fellowship of churches are you not is it not the

CREC? CREC, Communion of Reformed Evangelical Churches, right small

Reformed Presbyterian denomination of about a hundred congregations.

Okay great well if anybody wants more information on the

Christ Church in Moscow Idaho you can look that up at their website which is christkirk which

I believe is the Scottish word for church christkirk .com christkirk .com

and this article that you wrote the gods of civil unrest and Jesus mobs was obviously as I already stated in response to the recent storming of the capitol building before you even get into that specific action that took place can you tell us what your first reaction was when you just saw the crowds the massive massive crowds there before anything illegal was taking place?

You know the the reaction I have my overall reaction to this sort of thing is to think of how many sheep don't have a shepherd you know it's like they're they're all these people who who have been basically they there's no there's no way for them to express or state their views everything gets run through the media and twisted there or run through corrupt election processes or run basically the system is rigged against those who would want to articulate what you might call a simple faith in God and Christ and I think

I would look at a crowd like that and think massive frustration right massive frustration how can we make our voice heard and and then of course there were some agitators who decided to storm the capitol and I've heard an anecdotal report that Alex Jones of Infowars fame was outside the capitol yelling at everybody not to go in it was a trick don't go in don't go in and then if and we've gotten to the point where Alex Jones is the voice of moderation yeah my my program was actually live streaming at one point on a different network and sometimes when

I would have to air a rerun there would be a goof up and instead of running an old episode of my show

I'd be listening I'd be tuning in just to make sure that they had the right episode on and here's

Alex Jones in my slot I'm like what I had to call them on several occasions what are you doing and they thought

I was out of my mind for being upset about that but so let's define some terms here who are the gods of civil unrest yeah the gods of civil unrest would be this is something

I learned many many years ago from probably from Rush Dooney and and that is that paganism ultimately has to believe that everything comes from chaos in Ovid's the pagan poet

Ovid is the first chapter of metamorphoses he talked about in the beginning nature was just this shapeless chaotic mass and then one day out of chaos sprang the gods and one of the impulses then when things start to go wrong according to the pagan mindset is they want to drive everything back into chaos in the hope that they could have a redo because whether it's darwinistic evolution or ancient paganism the idea the pagan idea is that anything can turn into anything else anything can morph into anything else and that chaos is sort of the primordial play -doh out of which order somehow springs and the gods of civil unrest are those who are trying to wreck one of the best things that this planet ever had going uh the the civilization the culture that was built warts and all you know i'm i don't need anybody to remind me of how how many faults and failings america has but common people ordinary people have never had it so good and the gods of civil unrest are driven by envy and they want to drive this thing into a tree they want to wreck it and uh and and they're doing this in the hope that their marxist utopia will spring up magically out of the out of the debris that's but those are the gods of civil unrest and how about uh defining for us jesus mobs obviously not everyone amongst those crowds of thousands at the capitol building uh didn't identify themselves publicly as christians or as jesus groupies or anything i mean there may have been many that did but it wasn't the universal thing amongst the crowd so what do you mean by jesus mobs uh what i meant by jesus mobs is i i noticed this uh in the in the gospel accounts um and also one time in the book of acts that there were different groups in in first century uh israel there were different groups that reacted to jesus in different ways there were the pharisees who were hostile to him largely although some like nicodemus were attracted to him there were the pharisees who were the theological liberals and who had control of the temple at apparatus there were the herodians who were in bed with rome uh there was the crowd uh that you might say was uh well represented at the triumphal entry uh this was a biblically literate crowd and they received christ the way he needed to be received and they applied the right psalms to him they you know they were good and and i should insert here uh my ongoing uh disagreement with the popular preachers trope of assuming that the triumphal entry crowd and the crucify and crucify him crowds just a few days later were the same people you know oftentimes preachers will talk about the sickleness of crowds well no you had in first century palestine a number of competing interests you had the rent a mob that the uh jewish leaders got that was the crucify him crowd but the triumphal entry crowd were people who followed jesus and who appreciated his teaching and who believed that he was the messiah but then there's another group that's very interesting that doesn't get enough attention and that is the group that is out there the general populace that didn't really get the memo but they were on jesus' side over against the pharisees right so and uh you can see this in in the way that the jewish leaders had to go about arresting jesus why did they arrest him at night well they arrested him at night it says because they were afraid of the people and in acts five uh when they go to arrest the apostles they they handle them very gingerly because they're they're afraid the crowd was going to stone them right so there there are these there's this group out there that had a high opinion of john the baptist and a very high opinion of jesus but really didn't wasn't really quite up to speed on the radical new everything that jesus was teaching but they just knew that they liked him right and they were prepared to kill jewish leaders who would manhandle so uh that's another group so i would say that the the group that was marching on washington although i believe that there were many genuine christians in that in that demonstration i know i know some um there were i think a lot of them are people who would think that jesus is good and the bible is good and god is good and traditional values are good and that's sort of the full extent of their theology and they're kind of mad at what the secular progressives are doing to our country okay that's those those are the jesus mobs now the thing that's striking in the new testament is that the disciples who especially after the resurrection who were having trouble hearing you the disciples who were up to speed on what jesus taught as they were preaching they didn't apologize for or feel bad about uh what the jesus mobs were doing right uh the apostles didn't issue a press release apologizing for the fact that the chief priests had received credible threats on their lives even though they had right um that's not um we we need to be careful that we make the appropriate distinctions that that were excellent and visible in the new testament uh in the gospel accounts and i think we have something very comparable today we've got mobs that are hard left rioting mobs and tifa rioting mobs we've got pro -traditional values mobs we've got explicitly christian uh demonstrations you know it's you can't just take one size one size fits all approach yes and uh this is an area this whole uh area of public demonstration being a part of protests and large gatherings or gatherings of any size publicly where christians are involving themselves uh whether it be pro -life demonstrations or demonstrations or gatherings for any other reason uh the the church is sharply divided you have those that even would be theologically closely aligned with you and i on one end of the spectrum who would believe that the church even though individuals have freedoms and liberties to do things uh as as individuals that the church should not participate in these kinds of things as an official function of the church and there are those others on the other side like on the totally on the other side 180 degrees on the other side of the spectrum who would even dare to say that uh those who believe that that the church should not be involved in the political arena or in public demonstrations they would even say that they would be in sin for being uh complacent or indifferent or not involved in the culture and in fact both sides might call each other's guilty of sin uh in this this whole question where do you land and i know there are nuanced and varying degrees of difference in the middle of those two extreme sides but where are you on this okay so i would say that um there are many who say that christians don't belong in the public square and i would say well jesus was arrested crucified and rose again in the public square and if they didn't want us to follow christ there they shouldn't have crucified him there right if the if the rulers of this age had known what they were doing they would not have crucified the lord of glory so basically jesus was executed in public and he rose from the dead and he appeared to 500 people he it was a public event that means that our testimony to that reality is a public testimony so uh and that our our commitment to that resurrection has ramifications in other words we must we must stop killing babies because jesus rose from the dead so if if a man rises from the dead in this world i think there's only one conclusion possible and that is he is in charge of this world the man who comes back from the dead in this world is lord and he doesn't want us killing babies so i think christians have every have every obligation to be speaking into the public square calling people to repentance and calling the nation to follow christ and do what he says that's what the great commission requires jesus says all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me so notice jesus doesn't say all authority in heaven is mine so get here when you can um he says all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me and then he says therefore go disciple the nations discipling the nations means that we're to baptize them and teach them to obey jesus in everything and that means no homosexual marriage that means no more killing the babies that means we have to repent and turn around now that that means that the church belongs in the public square now when we go into the public square we want to make sure that we don't go there and tell lies so we have to go there and speak the truth so i don't have any problem let's say there was a big pro -life march and we call the event citizens for life uh i wouldn't mind being at a big march called citizens for life together with muslims and jews and atheists and christians we're citizens for life and that's true now if someone says well let's call it christians for life and we're going to include mormons and you know various people who are not orthodox i say no i'm more than willing to occupy go into the public square and and proclaim the dignity of human life but i i don't want to connect it to a lie right so i want to make sure that we keep our testimony and our doctrinal integrity intact while we do what we do but i don't have any problem being there and being shoulder to shoulder with people have a very different conviction than i do yeah uh what complicates matters is sometimes when these gatherings occur uh there are people uh as you mentioned in the first category where it might be just something like a citizens for life uh demonstration where you might have roman catholics uh in mass uh no pun intended there uh where you have like perhaps even dozens or hundreds of people reciting the rosary and here you are standing or marching or walking right near them or next to them and giving a false impression to outlurkers witnesses that you approve of this kind of devotion uh i remember our mutual friend dr james r white uh at one point years ago i believe it was back in the 80s maybe the 90s he was a part an active part of a pro -life organization and he had to step down voluntarily from his involvement because he was reprimanded for evangelizing roman catholics during the event uh who were doing things and saying things in public that he adamantly opposed so if you could just say a few words about that the caveat yeah so basically if a lot of this has to do with what people could legitimately read if they're standing on the sidewalk watching you go by if um if they're standing on the sidewalk and 100 people walk by and 95 of them are roman catholics saying rosary and then you've got one methodist two baptists and two presbyterians um i'm fond of saying that if if there are uh 12 clowns in a circus ring you can jump down there and start reciting shakespeare but to the audience you're just the 13th clown right um they the what these other people are doing have sort of set the stage or you know captured the moment this is what that is and so i think it's christian are you there brother hello hello yeah for some reason you cut out okay so uh but if i'm in a march with a hundred thousand people and you know all the people marching down this avenue are bible believing evangelicals and the rosaries and the rosary people are a half mile away you know um then people are not going to make the wrong uh they're not going to jump to the wrong conclusion so uh if i i think i'm responsible to make sure that my testimony to the gospel as it is presented to us in scripture is a clear testimony because paul says if the bugle blows indistinctly who's going to get ready for battle so we basically we have to be clear and obvious in our confession basically and if it becomes murky or unobvious then we have to put some distance yeah i i have been quite concerned over the years when i have seen and heard uh the responses of fellow believers some of whom are even reformed uh this would typically not be elders or pastors but your average joe and jane uh in the pews who have been so enamored for instance with glenn beck that they swear that he is a regenerate born -again believer in spite of his commitment to mormonism and um glenn beck i don't know if you remember he had been a uh he had spearheaded a major event a gathering in washington dc years ago uh and the the thing that got me very upset and concerned about this event was that glenn beck was very clear this is not a political gathering it is a spiritual one and if he had kept it as a political gathering uh by by identity i would not have been uh necessarily upset by it but the fact that he was calling it a spiritual event and then uh to the clueless ears of the thousands of christians evangelicals that were in the audience uh he was he was teaching in very subtle ways but those that know mormon doctrine their their ears perked up because they recognized it he was teaching mormonism he was teaching things that were unique about mormonism about the fact that jesus walked the earth in the united states or should i say on the continent of north america and so on um so we have to be careful about how uh and when and where we align ourselves with those that share our moral convictions and social convictions and political convictions but who really oppose the christ of the scriptures and and this is going to be doubly triply important coming back to the the theme of this blog post on the gods of civil unrest your theology is going to become increasingly important the more stress gets put on it yeah so so in uh it's one thing let's say uh let's say this is all you know 1980 and it's the very first pro -life march ever you know something like that um everything the march can come off and there's no real um disaster that comes but this march on washington and the and the invasion of the capital uh which has been used to justify uh 20 000 national guardsmen a lockdown inauguration all the optics of a fascist takeover and all of that was justified by this uh uh storming of the right so but that was that came about because of what i mentioned earlier the massive frustration that ordinary rank -and -file americans feel so if you go uh it's sort of like putting everything into this huge pressure cooker clamping the lid on and then turning the heat on high at some point you're going to have beans on the ceiling right and when that happens you basically you've got to know that mormons and roman catholics and protestants and and secular conservatives are going to react very very differently when there's a crack totalitarian or authoritarian crackdown theology comes at your fingertips and what your um your theological commitments are going to be revealed under stress much more markedly and we have to get our first break right now if anybody would like to join us on the air or the question of your own for doug wilson our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com

c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n and gmail .com as always please give us your first name at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the usa please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter let's say you disagree with your pastor over public demonstrations and protests or anything that we're talking about uh or you're a pastor and you disagree with your fellow elders or your denomination or your fellowship uh well uh we could understand that you'd want to remain anonymous but if it's just a general question a theological question a historical question uh please give us at least your first name city and state and country of residence don't go away we'll be right back with doug wilson after these messages here's what gary demar president of american vision had to say about iron sharpens iron radio recently good to be back chris i always enjoy our time you uh i have to tell you one of the better interviewers out there and i've been doing this for 30 more than 30 years wow that's some compliment how much do i owe you for that you don't have to owe me anything we're in good we're in good shape i'm glad you said it on the air so i don't have to brag about myself tell your friends and loved ones about iron sharpens iron radio airing live monday through friday 4 to 6 p .m

eastern time at iron sharpens iron radio .com are you tired of looking for the silver bullet when it comes to health and wellness are you frustrated with the medical status quo which masks symptoms and doesn't treat the root problem of sickness more importantly are you looking for one of the most unique books ever written which gives you safe low cost and proven options to regain your health the way god intended then look no further than my new book health for all of life a medical manifesto of hope and healing for the nations hi i'm jason garwood and i'm a husband father pastor and writer whose passion for helping people led me to write this book if 2020 has proven anything it's that big pharma big tech and big government knows nothing about how to treat people naturally without poisoning them with synthetic drugs and experimental vaccines but what if god has given us a better way what if we can take the christian worldview found in the bible and apply it to health and wellness my book health for all of life does just that you can find this exciting new book on amazon pick up a copy for yourself and for your friends and family give the gift of health and don't be a dead end to truth when iron sharpens iron radio first launched in 2005 the publishers of the new american standard bible were among my very first sponsors it gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the iron sharpens iron radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the nasb i'm dr joseph piper president and professor of systematic and homiletical theology at greenville presbyterian theological seminary in taylor's south carolina and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor chuck white at the first trinity lutheran church in tonawanda new york and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor anthony methenia of christ church in radford virginia and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor jesse miller of damascus road christian church in gardenville nevada and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor bruce bennett of word of truth church in farmerville long island new york and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor rodney brown of metro bible church in south lake texas and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor jim harrison of redmills baptist church in mayapac falls new york and the nasb is my bible of choice here's a great way for your church to help keep iron sharpens iron radio on the air pastors are your pew bibles tattered and falling apart consider restocking your pews with the nasb and tell the publishers you heard about them from chris arnzen on iron sharpens iron radio go to nasbible .com

that's nasbible .com to place your order james white of alphanamega ministries here if you've watched my dividing line webcast often enough you know i have a great love for getting bibles and other documents vital to my ministry rebound to preserve and ensure their longevity and besides that they feel so good i'm so delighted i discovered post tenebrous lux bible rebinding no radio ad will be long enough to sing their praises sufficiently but i'll give it a shot jeffrey rice of post tenebrous lux is a remarkably gifted craftsman and artisan all his work is done by hand from the cutting to the pleating of corners to the perimeter stitching jeffrey uses the finest and buttery soft imported leathers in a wide variety of gorgeous colors like the turquoise goat skin tanned in italy used for my nestle allen 28th edition with a navy blue goat skin inside liner and the electric blue goat skin from a french tannery used to rebind a reformation study bible i used as a gift the silver gilding he added on the page edges has a stunning mirror finish resembling highly polished chrome jeffrey will customize your rebinding to your specifications and even emboss your logo into the leather making whatever he rebinds a one -of -a -kind work of art for more details on post tenebrous lux bible rebinding go to ptl bible rebinding .com

that's ptl bible rebinding .com chris arnzen host of iron sharpens iron radio announcing a new website with an exciting offer from world magazine my trusted source for news from a christian perspective try world now at no charge for 90 days by going to get world now .com

that's get world now .com i rely on world because i trust the reporting i gain insight from the analysis and world provides clarity to the news stories that really matter i believe you'll also find world to be an invaluable resource to better understand critical topics with a depth that's simply not found in other media outlets armed with this coverage world can help you to be a voice of wisdom in your family and your community this trial includes bi -weekly issues of world magazine on -scene reporting from world radio and the fully shareable content of world digital there's no obligation and no credit card required visit getworldnow .com

today also check out world news groups podcast the world and everything in it at wng .org

forward slash podcast that's w for world n for news g for group .org

forward slash podcast i'm dr tony costa professor of apologetics and islam at toronto baptist seminary i'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where i've been invited to speak and have grown to love hope reform baptist church in quorum long island new york pastored by rich jensen and christopher it's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of god like the dear saints at hope reform baptist church in quorum who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of christ in his holy word and to enthusiastically proclaim christ jesus the king and his doctrines of sovereign grace in suffolk county long island and beyond i hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love as i have for more information on hope reform baptist church go to hope reform li .net

that's hope reformed li .net or call 631 -696 -5711 that's 631 -696 -5711 tell the folks at hope reform baptist church of quorum long island new york that you heard about them from tony costa on iron sharpens iron iron sharpens iron radio depends upon the financial support of fine christian organizations to remain on the air like the historical bible society the historical bible society maintains a collection of christian books manuscripts and bibles of historical significance spanning nearly a thousand years the mission of hbs is the preservation and public display of ancient scripture dissemination of scripture to provide tools equipping believers and christian apologetics with evidence for the bible's reliability and to introduce reformation literature and christian art to a broader audience since 2004 hbs has toured schools and churches throughout the northeast united states reaching thousands of believers and non -believers alike who are hungry for knowledge of the bible hbs's founder daniel p buttafuoco attorney at law is committed to sharing this collection along with an inspirational historical message that will captivate you and your church come journey through their website historicalbiblesociety .org

the collection includes a complete 11th century bible an actual page of the gutenberg bible from 1455 the first book ever printed the geneva bible the 1611 king james bible and much much more visit historicalbiblesociety .org

today thank you daniel p buttafuoco attorney at law for your faithful support of iron sharpens iron radio we are excited to announce another new member of the iron sharpens iron radio advertising family banu gadi owner of three new york pharmacies lee's drugs of floral park long beach chemists and prescription center of long island in hempstead banu gadi earned a doctorate in pharmacy degree and is very knowledgeable on the current coronavirus pandemic please contact dr gadi so he and his expert staff can give you proper guidance amid all the contradictory confusion we are all hearing in the media to find the pharmacy nearest you call 516 -354 -2000 that's 516 -354 -2000 or order online at lee's drugs rx .com

that's l -e -e -s drugs rx .com don't forget to ask about their discount generic drug program greetings in the matchless name of our lord jesus christ my name is banu gadi i'm a pharmacist in new york which is the epicenter of the latest crisis the world is going through in psalm 139 verse 14 the psalmist offers praise to the lord like this i praise you because i'm fearfully and wonderfully made and wondrous are your works that my soul knows very well he saw god's goodness and mercy kindness and the beauty in what god has designed and he has erupted into praise in any crisis or problem brothers and sisters our only fallback position is to trust god's design and once we do there is nothing for us to do but to erupt in praise to him when the whole world is searching for a solution god in his infinite mercy has given us what we need to address this illness which can be very serious such is the beauty of his design knowing that design how can we not erupt in praise to our great god like the psalmist did may god bless you and give all of us wisdom to see greater things in his design thank you welcome back if you just tuned us in our guest today for the entire program is doug willison pastor of christ church in moscow idaho and a well known writer and speaker we are discussing a blog article of his the gods of civil unrest and jesus mobs this was written in response to the recent storming of the capitol building and if you have questions of your own our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com

chris arnzen at gmail .com c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com give us your first name at least your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the usa please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter and we do have a listener who has written a question for you doug his name is prosanth from new york city in fact he is a relative i think he's the nephew of the of the man whose voice you just heard in the ad for dr banu gadi the pharmacist that has become a very important advertiser on this program and prosanth says i would like to ask what words you would have for those ministers who continue to only hold online services rather than in person and or strictly mandate masking at all times during the services and enforce government capacity limits can you please address the big picture dangers of exceeding the authority of the state yes so here this is something where if you see it you see it and if you don't it's really hard to get people to see it but the the thing that astonishes me is that christians are not seeing the the bigger picture here and that bigger picture is that we are trying to get our hooks into the church such that we can regulate what they do and don't do on any given lord's day now so let me begin with a qualification if if you're in the middle of a worship service and the fire chief comes in and tells you that the roof of the church is on fire i don't think you need to convene a meeting of the session right i think everybody understands a true emergency you know if there's a active shooter or the church is on fire or tornadoes coming or the dam is about to break you know all of these um that's what a civil magistrate is for but with this pandemic scare this pandemic panic which has been going on for coming up on a year now um it is a bogus uh panic and it's not bogus in the sense that there's no such thing as covid or that there's no such thing as a covid death but our reaction to it has been wildly disproportionate to our reaction to comparable issues in the past and i think that pastors and elders who don't see the game that's being that don't see that the play that's being run on them are are being negligent in the extreme um so if you're in california let's say and you're and you're being told that abortion clinics are essential and pop shops are essential but churches are not essential something is badly askew and and if christian leaders don't see through it they they ought not to be christian leaders um yeah um it has really been mind -boggling to me to see people who are so theologically aligned have such sharp divisions over this i have had some very very nasty things said to me from fellow reformed brethren uh because of my disdain for the mask mandates uh and they just they are just totally convinced that the science proves that this is going to be a way to demonstrate love for your neighbor because you are going to lessen the spread or prevent the spread of the coronavirus and i just had some physicians on the program yesterday who who said that that is just as ridiculous as trying to stop mosquitoes getting into your house uh with a chain -link fence um and uh so it's just it's just been uh amazing to me to see the differences of opinion on this uh by the way one of the things i would i would want to uh mention here is that if i could give two book recommendations one sure is the price the price of panic um which is written by j richards um douglas axe and one other gentleman i've forgotten his name they are major figures in the intelligent design movement but they've written a book called the price of panic which is really really um good and goes just goes through this whole thing systematically then the other thing the other uh book i'd recommend is one called um shining like the sun and this was a book a theological treatment of uh the importance of face -to -face worship and it was a book that was written prior to the whole uh pandemic thing it doesn't have anything directly to do with this controversy except the the theology of it does tie in directly with it the theology of it is that we with as the apostle paul says we with unveiled face are worshiping the lord and we're being transformed from one degree of worry to enough to another um it face -to -face worship is important whether it's jacob wrestling with the angel or moses going up on the mountain or new testament saints worshiping god in spirit and truth yeah uh it has been such a tragic and sad thing and i even know personally some folks that had uh left the fellowship of the church years ago and were just starting to return to church after years of forsaking the assembling of the brethren and they were being counseled and so on and this whole uh coronavirus mandate uh that initially occurred kind of got them out of the practice of going to uh church going to worship and uh to my knowledge they haven't returned since then now obviously they are not guiltless in their uh reluctance to quickly return when the congregation returned to public worship but at the same time uh there is some blame to be had in this these false mandates and uh overreaches and so on uh by the way prosanth and i mistakenly said you were from new york city because i was thinking of your uncle's pharmacy which he has one in new york city and at least one in new york city and one in long island prosanth is from glenhead new york and uh uh if you could give me your full mailing address and glenhead since you are a first -time questioner you have won a brand new new american standard bible compliments of the publishers of the new american standard bible at nas bible .com

nas bible .com and also compliments of our friends at cvbbs .com cumberland valley bible book service will be actually shipping the bible to you at no charge uh to you or to us so thank you prosanth for your very first question on iron trap design radio i hope to hear from you again and often uh we have uh john and banger maine who asks you seem to be discouraged and opposed to the gatherings in washington dc recently even before the criminal activity by some began which there is some clear evidence that at least some of those people were not even conservatives but were a part of the antiva movement i was wondering uh would you be opposed to christians being a part of this very large protest if it did not have any criminal activity just because of the fact that these were honest bible believing christians who were opposed to the fact that in their opinion from evidence the election was stolen from president trump yeah i have no problem with christians protesting i have no problem with christians protesting what they see as a stolen election and a big demonstration like what occurred in washington the problem the problem is i and i know people uh who were there and but one of the things that was said by someone that i know who was there is that they're in this huge demonstration that you know tens of thousands of people they're in the middle of this huge demonstration and they uh for them it was just an ordinary peaceful demonstration like they'd been in before and they were following the storming of the capitol on twitter but it wasn't anywhere near them it didn't have anything to do with them right and so the problem basically the problem is you have to recognize that huge demonstrations and huge crowds are simultaneously hard to steer and easy to steer right they're they're hard for good guys to steer and easy for bad guys to steer yeah and and so what what happened is i think that in order for us to have um effective demonstrations that can't be turned back around on us uh there has to be more discipline in the leadership of it so that everybody knows who's in charge and who should which direction should be followed and which should not be followed right so uh when the president gave his speech and then he said we're all going to march peacefully up to the capitol there wasn't enough direction or a place to for the for the energy to go and so consequently i think it got co -opted by the bad guys right so if if someone wants to say yeah antifa got in there and there was a black lives matter guy that was inciting the crowd and and they and they got people to charge the capitol i would say okay i grant that and i think that the people who are protesting the stolen election were right to do so but my question is why was it so easy for antifa or the black lives matter guy to get in there and get control of it who was this who was asleep at the switch i i don't think that that sort of thing i think we need more uh discipline i think too many people think that we're operating in 1972 america and we're not and we have to go to a midway break right now and uh please be patient with us because the midway break on our show is always the break that is longer uh than the other breaks because grace life radio 90 .1

fm in lake city florida requires of us a longer break in the middle of the show because they uh to obey scc regulations they have to localize this show and all of their programming to lake city florida they have to have their own public service announcements and other things while they do that we air our globally heard commercials use this time wisely write down the information provided by our advertisers so that you can more successfully and more frequently patronize them so that they remain our advertisers which means we will likely remain on the air for a longer future but also send in questions for doug wilson to chris armson at gmail .com

chris armson at gmail .com don't go away we'll be right back with doug wilson after these messages from our sponsors was your business shut down during the covid 19 pandemic depriving you of earning any money causing you to default on your rent as you try to survive without income maybe you've had to close your doors for good the good news you thought was that you purchased business interruption insurance as a part of your business liability policy with a major insurance company who told you they are a good neighbor or that you would be in good hands you filed a claim only to be told that it was denied due to the pandemic exclusion clause the pandemic exclusion since 2006 most insurance companies added this clause to enable them to deny your income loss claims in the event of a worldwide pandemic do not give up no matter what state you live in call buttafuoco and associates now at 1 -800 -669 -4878 buttafuoco and associates is a part of a large multi -district litigation and they are working with lead council to bring what they believe will be a successful lawsuit for these claims it is the best way for you to proceed there's absolutely no risk to you you do not have to pay them out of pocket and there is no fee unless you recover on your claim you need to call 1 -800 -669 -4878 right now trust the law firm where the attorneys at one of the largest business firms on long island new york are sending their own clients for representation during this lawsuit buttafuoco and associates here to help business owners rebuild their lives in the wake of the pandemic call 1 -800 -669 -4878 this is pastor bill saso grace church at franklin here in the beautiful state of tennessee our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support iron sharpens iron radio financially grace church at franklin is an independent autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of god as revealed in scripture through the person and work of our lord jesus christ and of course the end of which we strive is the glory of god if you live near franklin tennessee and franklin is just south of nashville maybe 10 minutes or you are visiting this area or you have friends and loved ones nearby we hope you will join us some lord's day in worshiping our god and savior please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about grace church at franklin our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org

that's gracechurchatfranklin .org this is pastor bill sasa wishing you all the richest blessings of our sovereign lord god savior and king jesus christ today and always hi i'm buzz taylor frequent co -host with chris irons and on iron sharpens iron radio i would like to introduce you to my good friends todd and patty jennings at cvbbs which stands for cumberland valley bible book service todd and patty specialize in supplying reformed and puritan books and bibles at discount prices that make them affordable to everyone since 1987 the family owned and operated book service has sought to bring you the best available christian books and bibles at the best possible prices unlike other book sites they make no effort to provide every book that is available because frankly much of what is being printed is not worth your time that means you can get to the good stuff faster it also means that you don't have to worry about being assaulted by the pornographic heretical and otherwise faith insulting material promoted by the secular book vendors their website is cvbbs .com

browse the pages at ease shop at your leisure and purchase with confidence as todd and patty work in service to you the church and to christ that's cumberland valley bible book service at cvbbs .com

that's cvbbs .com let todd and patty know that you heard about them on iron sharpens iron radio hi this is john sampson pastor of king's church in peoria arizona taking a moment of your day to talk about chris arnson and the iron sharpens iron podcast i consider chris a true friend and a man of high integrity he's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key doctrines of the christian i've always been happy to point people to this podcast knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the internet where folk won't be led astray i believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide this is a day of great spiritual compromise and yet god has raised chris up for just such a time and knowing this it's up to us as members of the body of christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances i'm pleased to do so and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting iron sharpens iron financially would you consider sending either a one -time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry i know it would be a huge encouragement to chris if you would all the details can be found at iron sharpens iron radio dot com where you can click support that's iron sharpens iron radio dot com when iron sharpens radio first launched in 2005 the publishers of the new american standard bible were among my very first sponsors it gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the iron sharpens iron radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the nasb i'm dr tony costa professor of apologetics and islam at the toronto baptist seminary and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor jeff downs of knox reform presbyterian church at mechanicsville virginia and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor mark rimaldi of grace reform baptist church of long island in merit new york and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor scott pisolo of the master's church of bux county pennsylvania and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor kevin venue of the bible church for washington new york and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor andrew smith of christ reformed community church in saint augustine florida and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor clint leiter of highway m chapel sedalia missouri and the nasb is my bible of choice here's a great way for your church to help keep iron sharpens iron radio on the air pastors are your pew bibles tattered and falling apart consider restocking your pews with the nasb and tell the publishers you heard about them from chris arnzen on iron sharpens iron radio go to nasbible .com

that's nasbible .com to place your order james white of alpha and omega ministries and the dividing line webcast here although god has brought me all over the globe for many years to teach preach and debate at numerous venues some of my very fondest memories are from those precious times of fellowship with pastor rich jensen and the brethren at hope reform baptist church now located at their new beautiful facilities in corham long island new york i've had the privilege of opening god's word from their pulpit on many occasions have led youth retreats for them and have always been thrilled to see their members filling many seats at my new york debates i do not hesitate to highly recommend hope reform baptist church of corham long island to anyone who wants to be accurately taught discipled and edified by the holy scriptures and to be surrounded by truly loving and caring brothers and sisters in christ i also want to congratulate hope reform baptist church of corham for the recent appointment of pastor rich jensen's co -elder pastor christopher mcdowell for more information on hope reform baptist church go to hope reformed li .net

that's hope reformed li .net or call 631 -696 -5711 that's 631 -696 -5711 tell the folks at hope reform baptist church of corham long island that you heard about them from james white on iron sharpens iron radio are you tired of looking for the silver bullet when it comes to health and wellness are you frustrated with the medical status quo which masks symptoms and doesn't treat the root problem of sickness more importantly are you looking for one of the most unique books ever written which gives you safe low cost and proven options to regain your health the way god intended then look no further than my new book health for all of life a medical manifesto of hope and healing for the nations hi i'm jason garwood and i'm a husband father pastor and writer whose passion for helping people led me to write this book if 2020 has proven anything it's that big pharma big tech and big government knows nothing about how to treat people naturally without poisoning them with synthetic drugs and experimental vaccines but what if god has given us a better way what if we can take the christian worldview found in the bible and apply it to health and wellness my book health for all of life does just that you can find this exciting new book on amazon pick up a copy for yourself and for your friends and family give the gift of health and don't be a dead end to truth every day at thousands of community centers high schools middle schools juvenile institutions coffee shops and local hangouts long island youth for christ staff and volunteers meet with young people who need jesus we are rural and urban and we are always about the message of jesus our mission is to have a noticeable spiritual impact on long island new york by engaging young people in the lifelong journey of following christ long island youth for christ has been a stalwart bedrock ministry since 1959 we have a world -class staff and a proven track record of bringing consistent love and encouragement to youths in need all over the country and around the world help honor our history by becoming a part of our future volunteer donate pray or all for details call long island youth for christ at 631 -385 -8333 that's 631 -385 -8333 or visit liyfc .org

that's liyfc .org you charles haddon spurgeon once said give yourself unto reading the man who never reads will never be read he who never quotes will never be quoted he will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves he has no brains of his own you need to read solid ground christian books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the prince of preachers to heart the mission of solid ground christian books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to christians in the present and future and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world since it's beginning in 2001 solid ground has been committed to publish god -centered christ exalting books for all ages we invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com

that's solid -ground -books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past or present you can unearth from solid ground solid ground christian books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of iron sharpens iron radio and please folks don't ever forget how vitally important solid -ground -books .com

is to iron sharpens iron radio they are a premier a primary a vital sponsor of this program without their continued advertising that funds us every month we would likely have to go off the air because of the crucial percentage of funding that comes from solid -ground -books .com

barring a miracle from god of course we would likely go off the air and we hope that you will begin if you haven't already patronizing solid -ground -books .com

they publish the finest christian literature from the past and the present you're not only going to be doing them a favor and you're not only going to be doing us a favor by keeping an advertiser happy you're going to be doing yourself an enormous favor by frequently purchasing books from solid -ground -books .com

and you're going to be doing an enormous favor for anyone for whom you are purchasing books from solid -ground -books .com

there's a wide variety of themes and authors and spanning centuries all coming from a theologically reformed perspective so please go to solid -ground -books .com

frequently and purchase generously and please always mention that you heard about them from chris armson on iron sharpens iron radio before we return to our interview with doug wilson on his blog article the gods of civil unrest and jesus mobs we just have a couple more important announcements to make tomorrow i hope that you tune in to the program as my friend pastor joe jackowitz of christ bible church in dublin california who's also the founder of first love radio and first love publications he's joining us tomorrow along with ryan denton to discuss ryan's book even if none uh this is a book that we began a discussion on a number of weeks ago the subtitle reclaiming biblical evangelism and the forward was written by my dear friend dr conrad and bayway the pastor of cubata baptist church in lusaka zambia and faculty member at african christian university i hope that you tune in for part two of our discussion on even if none with my guests also on friday you've been hearing ads for jason garwood's book health for all of life a medical manifesto of hope and healing for the nations well jason is going to be our guest on friday so i hope that you tune in also i hope that many of you join me next week when i'm going to be manning an exhibitor's booth at the voddie balkan conference in central pennsylvania in mifflinburg to be precise and dr balkan is going to be exposing and refuting critical race theory and he is a valuable spokesperson on that issue because he happens to be a black brother in christ and he is also an extremely gifted proclaimer of the gospel and a brilliant brother and i think i know for certain that if you love the scriptures you're going to love hearing brother voddie balkan speak if you join me that would be a week from tomorrow thursday january 28th from 8 a .m

to 12 noon in mifflinburg pennsylvania if you want more information go to facebook and type in central pennsylvania reformation society that's central pennsylvania reformation society and you will have all the information that you need on this conference and you could also email me chrisarnson at gmail .com

chrisarnson at gmail .com for more details also folks if you love this show and you do not want it to disappear from the airwaves please go to iron sharpens iron radio .com

click support then click click to donate now you could donate instantly with a debit or credit card by doing that and if you prefer snail mail the old -fashioned way mailing in checks and an address a physical address will appear on your screen when you click support iron sharpens iron radio .com

where you can mail a check made payable to iron sharpens iron radio also if you'd like to advertise with us as long as you're promoting something that is compatible with what we believe you don't have to believe identically with me but you need to be promoting something that's very compatible with what i believe then please send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com

and put advertising in the subject line because we surely could use your advertising dollars as far as those that are donating uh please always remember that i never want anybody siphoning money away from their regular giving that they're accustomed to to their own local church where they are a member in order to give to iron sharpens iron radio in other words don't punish your church financially by blessing iron sharpens iron radio financially and also if you are really struggling to make really struggling to survive i don't want to have anyone take food off of their tables in order to give to iron sharpens iron radio and put your family in further financial jeopardy those two things are commands of scripture providing for church and family providing for my radio show is obviously not a command of god but if you are financially blessed above and beyond your ability to obey those two commands providing for church and family you have extra money you want to cut into your recreation money uh your restaurant money your movie money your theater money your concert money well whatever extra funds you may have we would be more than happy to take as much of that money as you are willing to share with us because we are in urgent need of your financial help the coronavirus pandemic hysteria has hurt us seriously financially because many in our audience who were very faithful donors and advertisers have had to cut back on donating and advertising because they and their livelihoods their careers and businesses have been very hurt by the hysteria going on with the mandated shutdowns of businesses and so on or the restrictions so please help us if you can go to iron sharpens iron radio dot com click support then click click to donate now and please do that frequently and generously if you are financially capable and if you love the show and you don't want us to go away also if you are not a member of a local bible believing church no matter where on the planet earth you live i have lists of biblically faithful churches all over the world and i may be able to help you find a church possibly even right around the corner from where you live as where as i have done for many people in the audience who didn't even know churches near them existed or they didn't know that these churches were biblically sound so please send me an email to chris arnzen at gmail .com

and put i need a church in the subject line if you are in that category of being in need of a good solid biblical church that's chris arnzen at gmail .com

and put i need a church in the subject line that's also the email address where you could send in a question to doug wilson on the gods of civil unrest and jesus mobs as chris arnzen at gmail .com

chris arnzen at gmail .com and we have an anonymous listener for you doug who says i'm constantly being mocked and made fun of by fellow brothers and sisters in christ even in my own church because they think i'm a conspiracy theory nut and i was wondering since i have read your blog article you seem to be clear that your blog will likely not be permitted to exist for very long you do have a backup plan i understand but as far as what you are currently doing you think that the governing authorities or the social media crowd who are in control will shut you down am i right in categorizing your words in that fashion and am i just a conspiracy theory nut uh yeah but first remember uh brother doug you're really muffled how's that yeah that's better okay um you have to remember that just because you're paranoid that doesn't mean they're not after you right so i i think honestly if you're talking about things like having your access to the microphone being shut off that's not conspiracy theory that's open up eyes in there you just have to have eyes in your head for that so for example we produced a lot of content here in moscow and we've already been censored in different areas and in different ways um we had uh we were producing a series of videos called reform basics and and we were platforming them on amazon prime and amazon discontinued uh discontinued doing that i did an interview with peter hitchens on the covet crazy stuff on a show that i had called man rampant and amazon uh turned that off so basically you're not a conspiracy theorist if you say that big tech is coming after us you have to be willfully blind not to see that well thank you anonymous and uh yeah that's another thing that christians are dividing over now obviously you and i don't know this individual because they may be saying other things that would lend their friends and brothers in christ to come to the conclusion that they were conspiracy theory nuts but uh these uh there are certain things that have already demonstrated themselves as being factual like what you were just saying about being censored and so on absolutely uh thank you anonymous and if you are a first -time questioner please let me know and give me your full name and mailing address off the air of course because we're not going to identify you being anonymous then you will receive a free new american standard bible so uh please do that as soon as you can and cvbbs .com

will send that out to you i we were touching before when we on this before but if you could expand a little bit further on christless conservatives and also uh get uh into a comparison and contrasting of that with some christ syncretistic christian conservatism yeah yeah um uh one of the things that we have to realize is that america um let's say the america of the eisenhower administration was not a christian country but it was a country that was heavily influenced by christianity so there's a difference between being an explicitly christian nation and self -consciously confessing the lordship of christ on the one hand and on the other hand being a a nation that was profoundly affected by the presence of many millions of christians down through her history america has been the latter not the former now what that means is that america is like the prodigal son in the parable where he didn't earn the money himself but he had it to spend okay he didn't earn the money himself but he had to spend and that's what christless conservatism is like christless conservatism is the uh are the uh citizens who like the fruit of what christianity brought to our culture to a public square they liked the fruit but they didn't think the tree was necessary they thought for example it would be possible to have free speech and the right to free assembly and the right to keep and bear arms and all our civic public liberty without confessing that jesus is lord and it's turning out to be the case that that's simply not true if you want the apples you're going to have to have the orchard and so those christless conservatives who say and do and argue many good things have not recognized that this is a fruit that requires a transcendental anchor in order to in in order to remain and so basically uh i think that we need to be done with secularism as a right -wing or conservative strategy we need to confess jesus we can't have salvation without a savior we can't have true legislation without a lawgiver christ it's got it's christ or chaos and our culture is voting for chaos right now embracing chaos yeah i've i've seen uh different reactions to what you are saying which i agree with 100 uh but there are different reactions there are some that would go too far in your response um in reaction and they would say uh remember uh it doesn't matter if you're voting for somebody that is pro -abortion or pro -homosexual marriage or any of these things because that's not the gospel we have liberties as uh brothers and sisters in christ to vote for whom we we should we want to vote for and uh we have to not confuse the gospel with these political uh problems and differences that we have in our culture and then of course you have some who would radically oppose that and say no i mean there are things that transcend political issues abortion is murder and obviously christians cannot be in any way complicit in supporting anyone through their vote or otherwise who believes in the mass genocide of unborn children and believes in sodomy as a completely acceptable and even praiseworthy activity and lifestyle and identity and go we could go on and on and on with that uh so they would say uh it's a sin to vote for anybody that would be promoting these things especially if they are aggressively and enthusiastically promoting these things so how do you respond to these different reactions to the uh yeah the the combining of secular conservatism with christianity i would i would go back to something you said at the very beginning where the person says well these issues are not the gospel well there's a fundamental confusion there because the gospel is the death the vicarious death of christ on the cross his burial in accordance with the scriptures his resurrection and his ascension on high that's that's the gospel that's the objective gospel but then there's the subjective response to the gospel which throughout all scripture is consists of two things they are repent and believe repent of your sins and believe the gospel so the gospel is the message of the death burial resurrection of christ but what do you repent of well you repent of your spin and your sin is whatever is keeping you from christ and our embrace of homosexual marriage is what we need to repent of so opposing homosexual marriage is not the gospel but it is repentance that's necessary to enable you to believe the gospel so abortion where america must repent of the tens of millions of children we have slaughtered in the um in the jaws of molech we have done that and we have to repent of that and because if you don't repent you can't believe and if you don't believe you can't come to the gospel so it's a so something can be not the gospel and nevertheless be a gospel issue right so a person might uh be addicted to pornography or addicted to cocaine or an alcoholic a drunkard or you know but abstaining from alcohol is not the gospel but in smith's case he must repent of that in order to come to the gospel he there must we must not hold on to anything so the um the evangelical reformed christian church must proclaim the gospel and must attack sin the the sorts of sins that are keeping america america from coming to the gospel and uh what uh further do you have to say about comparing and contrasting christless conservatism with syncretistic christian conservatism yes syncretistic uh christian conservatism has two forms there's the left wing and the right wing of it the right wing would be you know carrying a flag where jesus is hugging trump from behind and jesus jesus is wearing a maga hat okay what you're doing is you're combining christ and your political peculiar provincial politics now everybody sees pretty much everybody sees that if if we're if we talk about jesus and the maga hat because generally people who do that are not very sophisticated at all but but there are people over on the left wing of christian conservatism who who are much more subtle and educated and sleek in what they combine they they combine for example their christianity with open borders immigration free for all politics okay but they're generally not they'd like to couch their support for open borders in in biblical terminology but it's just as syncretistic as the maga hat thing and we have arnie in perry county pennsylvania who says before we you were talking about it being completely legitimate to be a part of public protests but we have to be very cautious and leery about really massive crowds the problem is you don't always know before you get to this public event that it will turn into such a massive event that will be easily steered by the wicked in the crowd can you tell us what to do in your opinion do you have counsel should we leave such a crowd if it's physically possible etc um yeah basically this is one of those wisdom judgment call things um i believe i'm just going to say a few things about what i think um trump's gifts and deficiencies are uh trump was a very gifted if you were a football quarterback he was gifted at scrambling he was not he was not gifted at running a disciplined play right where uh sometimes you see a football team and everybody you know 15 seconds into the play everybody on the field on that team is exactly where they needed to be and and the thing runs like a singer sewing machine it's disciplined and focused then you've got some you know football quarterback who's a who's a football genius but he's not disciplined and he can scramble like crazy and sometimes he can make things happen trump was that second kind of leader i think if you're going to have a march on washington that has hundreds of thousands of people involved in it you absolutely need discipline at the top and i think it would be wise for christians to stay away from um trying to ride the avalanche down the side of the mountain i just don't think i don't think that that's wise but i do think it's legitimate to protest the things that they were protesting i just think it's important to bring more discipline to the to the venture than was this last time so i'm assuming then you would think uh that if somebody wound up there in this massive sea of humanity that didn't realize it was going to turn out to be that large that if they could wriggle their way out of that crowd that they should leave yeah so let me um give you two scenarios i could i could see a conscientious christian going to protest and then they're in middle of this mob and they notice that their phone's blowing up and they start looking at video footage of what's happening two miles away you know if the people are storming the capitol i think they should make their way out feel you know deal me out um if i had been invited to as a minister if i'd been invited to speak at that rally i think i would not have gone unless i had assurances that they had discipline in place like how what's the plan i don't want to be part of the leadership of something unless i know what the plan is we do have a first -time questioner uh who is somewhat off topic but it's not completely off topic uh his name is sam from salem oregon or oregon uh hello pastor doug i listened to your debate a while back ago on does god decree evil or should i say does god decree all evil i agree with your position in that debate you said something to the effect that we are to rejoice or be happy in the evil that happens or tragedies that happen what does that look like under this harris biden regime for us christians yeah so i think that's a great question um i i said earlier i think that i believe that this is a time of turbulent mercy i think the prayer of christians ought to be that god would break us down shake us down so that that which cannot be shaken might remain in other in other words the united states deserves the judgment of god i believe that we should pray that the judgment comes in such a way as to enable us to turn around and repent now i believe that the the biden administration is likely to be chaos on stills i i don't i i don't think that the left i don't think his left base is going to allow him to be moderate i think he's going to be pushed around like nobody's business i think he's going to overreach and i think it's i think we're at an impasse basically um so i think that our prayer should be lord please do what it takes if it wrecks the economy of the united states i mean totally wrecks the economy of the united states but we stop killing babies that would be worth it right so i i if i'd rather be a citizen of a poor country that wasn't killing babies than of a rich country that is i would rather be a citizen in a poor country that didn't have homosexual marriage than of a wealthy country that did and so i think our prayer ought to be that god take us to the woodshed and this appears to be in my thinking this appears to be what what we're in for uh god taking us to the woodshed in the long run we can be encouraged because in the long run stupidity doesn't work but i believe that god is being kind to his people even though it doesn't necessarily look like it so um i'm fond of telling our people in our church that god loves cliffhangers and he does this over and over again david's running away from saul and he's on one side of the mountain and saul is on the other side of the mountain chasing him and it's at that exact moment that the philistines invade and saul has to go deal with them abraham takes isaac up on the mountain and he's got the knife in the air he's just about ready to kill isaac and god interrupts and stops him uh and it became proverbial in israel on the mount of the lord it will be provided and so you have uh just in time delivery then you have uh the the people of israel more than a million of them standing on the banks of the red sea the water lapping at their toes moses is standing there with a stick and they look at the water in front of them and they turn around and look at the dust from pharaoh's chariots coming up behind them okay and and there's nowhere to run nowhere to hide nothing to do and moses following what god tells him says stand still and see the salvation of the lord but there's nothing what do we do what can we do nothing but standing still and seeing the salvation of the lord and i don't i don't think one in ten thousand of those israelites was expecting those chariots coming up behind in a very short space of time to be under the water that was in front of them but that's how it turned out yeah that's what happened so i think christians um christians need to be stalwart we need to have a firm understanding and we have to have stout hearts and realize that god is going to deliver his people he always does well i urge you please write a book with one of the best titles i've ever heard god loves cliffhangers please that's an excellent i'm sorry that would be a good title yeah yes excellent title i thank you sam and sam in oregon please give me your full mailing address because since you are a first -time questioner you're getting a free new american standard bible and cvbbs .com

cumberland valley bible book service will ship that out to you and once again we thank the publishers of the new american standard bible nasbible .com

uh for providing these bibles and for renewing their advertising sponsorship on iron sharpens iron radio uh let's see here we have another question uh we have uh cj in lindenhurst long island new york and he has a question i keep hearing james white on the dividing line mention the sweater vest dialogues what on earth is that so um i think we've done three or four of them uh periodically once a month or so james white and i have a video chat where we go for an hour um and i commonly wear sweater vests and somebody made a joke i think i'm the first one and that's what the where the name came from he wears these odd i keep forgetting the name of um very colorful sweater vest type of things and i wear just ordinary sweater vests and so somebody dubbed it the sweater vest dialogues and so what we do is we hook up in a video feed and then james and i talk about some theological topic and it's once a month or so um you can uh find them on the canon press app there's a uh a canon press app and you can probably find them on facebook also just google best dialogues and it's uh james white and uh yours truly talking one of the things that i love about your friendship with him is that it started after a debate that you had when you were both having opposite holding two opposite positions in a debate yeah what shows you that and on the topic that we're debating we were debating that we still do hold the opposite positions on on that that's right well we're but we're good friends um thank you uh arnie for your question actually that was cj i'm sorry cj and lennon hurst long island thanks for your question um going back uh to a question uh that uh i think it was sam in oregon salem oregon asked yes it was i i forgot i wanted to ask my own follow -up question there are differences of opinion amongst brothers in christ on how we should respond treat talk about publicly address joe biden and kamala harris because these individuals differ on whether they were legitimately elected into office or whether this was a fraudulent election uh stolen basically from donald trump and so there's a difference of opinion on the two different groups uh or even you might have some that believe agree that the election was stolen but still they will say this happened uh as as a part of god's foreordained orchestration he is sovereign he raises up all rulers no matter who they are so we have to give them the utmost respect we should not mock them we should not make fun of them we should not publicly uh be uh unkind toward them etc and then you have others that say oh no these people are not really are legitimate rulers and leaders etc so how do you respond to that that difference yeah yeah there are several layers of response there so even if they were legitimate rulers even if they were legitimately elected uh we should rather say we should not mock them or use rhetoric on them that goes outside the boundaries of what scripture teaches so when somebody brings word to jesus about something what harrod was doing jesus says go and tell that fox what was that what was that when when jesus is saying that um that addresses harrod as a fox was that a political commentary was it um was it was it a witticism what what was that and then there's the time when paul is in front of the sanhedrin um and uh he has come to the high priest command said to be struck and paul says god will strike you you whitewashed wall uh and then someone points out that was the high priest and he says he and paul uh drops it backs off and says you shall not speak uh evil of the leader of your people so i think that there is uh a certain measure of the uh scripturally appointed you might call disrespect that follow that that falls within scriptural guidelines but you're not permitted to go beyond that even if the people you're addressing are evil okay yeah so um so that's one thing the other thing is uh legitimacy is a strange creature because i happen to believe that joe biden did steal the election i believe that it was a fraudulent election but let's say that he got away with it okay as it appears he has done and let's say that uh we're we are three presidential administrations downstream from biden i don't think you can go back upstream and say everything after that point was illegitimate because um the status quo in scripture the status quo confers a certain measure of legitimacy because there's there's a real there's a true oddity in this um and that is in the gospel of john caiaphas uh prophets basically when caiaphas is saying that it's better that one man died than that everybody dies uh john says that he being high priest that year prophesied so caiaphas is a scoundrel right he's one of the worst people in history but he was the high priest and not only was he the high priest but he was the high priest illegitimately he was not descended from zadok he was not part of the priestly line that should have been ministering in the temple so in jerusalem there was a true temple with a false line of priests ironically over in alexandria egypt there was a false temple and the sons of zadok were ministering there so the false temple had true priests and the true temple had false priests and yet because he'd been there a while there was a certain status quo legitimately legitimacy such that john says caiaphas being high priest that year prophesied all right so um i believe that if the issue was let's say um biden stole the election he was being installed but or is about to be installed and it was actually in the courts and there was a battle back and forth i think it's fully legitimate for christians to withhold judgment and say let's let's wait and see how this shakes out right i don't think you are obligated to give your allegiance to someone simply because he's been in office five minutes and he's claiming that he's legitimate so right um in another blog i think was another blog post uh i did within the last month uh the year in in ab68 uh it's known as the year of the four emperors nero was forced to commit suicide and then a destination was the general in jerusalem besieging jerusalem when nero committed suicide and then there were three emperors in succession galba otho and vitalius each of and they all reigned for a matter of just a few months um so there was nero galba otho vitalius and the station left the siege and came back to take over and he established the flavian dynasty so i don't think if someone's sitting there in rome pointing to romans 13 and galba has just taken the throne and he's only going to be there a matter of weeks and someone says well we've got to do whatever galba says no wait we've got to do whatever otho says no way we've got to when things are in turmoil you can withhold judgment if the civil war is not over yet you don't know who the established authorities are and we're going to our final break it's going to be a lot more brief than the last ones uh if you could doug uh have in front of you and it's up to you if you want to read it or if you want me to read it but you have an excellent quote by theodore dalrymple uh i think it has a lot of bearing especially on what you were saying earlier about your uh you're being convinced that they are going to the powers that be in the social media anyway are going to shut down your your blog at least until you have a backup plan that relaunches it but uh we're going to be right back after these messages so don't go away we are excited to announce another new member of the iron sharpens iron radio advertising family banu gadi owner of three new york pharmacies lee's drugs of floral park long beach chemists and prescription center of long island in hempstead banu gadi earned a doctorate in pharmacy degree and is very knowledgeable on the current coronavirus pandemic please contact dr gadi so he and his expert staff can give you proper guidance amid all the contradictory confusion we are all hearing in the media to find the pharmacy nearest you call 516 -354 -2000 that's 516 -354 -2000 or order online at lee's drugs rx .com

that's l -e -e -s drugs rx .com don't forget to ask about their discount generic drug program greetings in the matchless name of our lord jesus christ my name is banu gadi i'm a pharmacist in new york which is the epicenter of the latest a crisis the world is going through in psalm 139 verse 14 the psalmist offers praise to the lord like this i praise you because i am fearfully and wonderfully made and wondrous are your works that my soul knows very well he saw god's goodness and mercy kindness and the beauty and what god has designed and he has erupted into praise in any crisis or problem brothers and sisters our only fallback position is to trust god's design and once we do there is nothing for us to do but to erupt in praise to him when the whole world is searching for a solution god in his infinite mercy has given us what we need to address this illness which can be very serious such is the beauty of his design knowing that design how can we not add up and praise to our great god like the psalmist did may god bless you and give all of us wisdom to see greater things in his design thank you this is pastor bill saso grace church at franklin here in the beautiful state of tennessee our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support iron sharpens iron radio financially grace church at franklin is an independent autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of god as revealed in scripture through the person and work of our lord jesus christ and of course the end of which we strive is the glory of god if you live near franklin tennessee and franklin is just south of nashville maybe 10 minutes or you are visiting this area or you have friends and loved ones nearby we hope you will join us some lord's day in worshiping our god and savior please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about grace church at franklin our website is grace church at franklin .org

that's grace church at franklin .org this is pastor bill sasa wishing you all the richest blessings of our sovereign lord god savior and king jesus christ today and always linbrook baptist church on 225 earl avenue in linbrook long island is teaching god's timeless truths in the 21st century our church is far more than a sunday worship service it's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant it's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement it's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people and healing we're a diverse family of all ages enthusiastically serving our lord jesus christ in fellowship play and together hi i'm pastor bob waldeman and i invite you to come and join us here at linbrook baptist church and see all that a church can be call linbrook baptist at 516 -599 -9402 that's 516 -599 -9402 or visit linbrookbaptist .org

that's linbrookbaptist .org charles heddon spurgeon once said give yourself unto reading the man who never reads will never be read he who never quotes will never be quoted he will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own you need to read solid ground christian books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the prince of preachers to heart the mission of solid ground christian books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to christians in the present and future and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world since its beginning in 2001 solid ground has been committed to publish god -centered christ exalting books for all ages we invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com

that's solid -ground -books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past or present you can unearth from solid ground solid ground christian books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of iron sharpens iron radio welcome back and uh doug if you could i would love for you to read that quote that i mentioned by theodore dalrymple will do happy to um so this is theodore dalrymple who's a british cultural commentator quote political correctness is communist propaganda writ small in my study of communist society i came to the conclusion that the purpose of propaganda was not to persuade or convince nor to inform but to humiliate and therefore the less it corresponded to reality the better when people are forced to remain silent when they are being told the most obvious lies or even worse when they are forced to repeat the lives of the life forced to repeat the lies themselves they lost once and for all their sense of probity to assent to obvious lies is to cooperate with evil and in some small way to become evil oneself one standing to resist anything is thus eroded and even destroyed a society of emasculated liars is easy to control i think if you examine political correctness it has the same effect and if intended to wow that is chilling and so true um and and it's the the whole idea of our enemies in the media always resorting to mockery rather than actually dealing with facts rather than dealing with public debate uh controlled moderated debate and so on uh if you just make your opponent look like an idiot because you're laughing at him people aren't uh going to take your opponent seriously uh as if they have any allegiance to or um affection towards the the leftist in the media doing that and uh and even you know there were have been mean debaters down through history who would argue their case and make you look like a moron but in the modern world they're not arguing in such a way as to make you look like a moron they simply assume that that argument has been made somewhere by somebody and they just called you a moron so uh let's say you say something on twitter that is controversial like i don't think a little boy can become a little girl you know something like that right uh the people will pile in and they won't say i think you've mistaken our position because this journal article and you know they don't do that they just say what you know what an idiot what you know you must have three heads and drool they just come in and start conducting the ad hominem attacks because they they don't know how to argue they just know how to name call and they want to humiliate you the thing that's most chilling about this are the christians who accept it who sort of own the humiliation and say yes i i do have a problem i i do have a problem with my whiteness you know the only problem i have with my whiteness is that i am sometimes embarrassed by my pastiness and do need to get out in the sun more right i would like you and first of all i know already that if you are willing i'd love to have you back to do another program on the same blog article because we've only really scratched the surface so if you'd like to return i would love to have you come back as soon as possible but i'd like you to summarize for now what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners about this subject sure thank you very much i believe that this point by dalrymple is is the takeaway we're not we're not arguing or debating with the left about the future of america in any kind of good faith exchange it's not a good faith exchange this is um basically i think it is a life and death struggle i don't believe that argument is going to deal with it and fundamental as and fundamentally it is got to be the preaching of the gospel i don't think there's any hope for our i don't think there's any hope for our country apart from a massive reformation and revival amen well uh i think i have time for one more question uh the question is are you post -millennial and how does that play into the rapid decline of america as a constitutional republic yeah great question that's that's an anonymous listener by the way okay okay i am post -millennial and i believe that um i said earlier that god believes in creative destruction well i said god believes in cliffhangers but also god also shakes those things that can be shaken so that which cannot be shaken may remain i'm very grateful to be an american but america is not the kingdom of god and i believe that uh there are certain things that america signed up for abortion on demand being one of them that is getting in the way of the work of the kingdom of god and and basically you can't argue that we deserve judgment and then object when judgment comes we got time for one more we have bb in cumberland county pennsylvania who says i believe in american exceptionalism but i have seen it go on awry and turn into straight -out idolatry what are your thoughts on this uh yeah my take on american exceptionalism is i believe that the founders of our republic really were exceptional but the reason they were exceptional is they knew that we were not exceptional babylonian uh when babylon was on top of the world they believed in babylonian exceptionalism when the british empire was on top of the world they believed in british exceptionalism the american uh the american founders knew that this was going to be a very very great country they knew that um but they also built in the constitution firewalls and protections that demonstrated that they knew that americans were not to be trusted american politicians were not to be trusted and that constitutional framework that they gave us was exceptional because they recognized that american political leaders would not be exceptional they would be corruptible just like everybody else well thank you uh bb and uh as i said doug if you could hold on the line until i go off the air because i'd like to give you a proper goodbye but also want to schedule a follow -up interview with you i want to make sure our listeners have your church website it's christkirk .com

christ k -i -r -k dot com and uh if anybody is interested in the uh the blog that you run uh that website is dougwills .com