December 1, 2021 Show with Andy Woodard on “A Line in the Sand: Bringing Clarity, Courage, & Confiction to the Issues Most Threatening the Church Today”

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth. We're listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnson, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this first day of December 2021.

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And I'm thrilled to have back on the program a returning guest, my friend Andy Woodard, who is pastor of Providence Baptist Church of New York City, a

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Reformed Baptist congregation. And we are going to be addressing a conference that's going to be held there next weekend,

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A Line in the Sand, a nonconformist ministries conference bringing clarity, courage, and conviction to the issues most threatening the church today.

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And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Andy Woodard. Thanks, Chris, for having me.

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I'm glad to be here. And tell our listeners about Providence Baptist Church. So, PBC is a confessionally

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Reformed Baptist church that started last year during COVID. Our church went through some difficulties during the

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COVID season, as many did, and that led to restarting the church.

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And so what we did, I formerly was pastoring New Covenant Church, and one of the things that we did to help bring stability to the church was adopting the 1689.

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That just brought a lot of helpful clarity to the congregation.

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Yeah, so the church restarted last year with about 20 people, and now there's 60 to 80 or so on a normal Sunday.

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And we're doing a conference next week. Well, praise

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God. Tell us about nonconformist ministries, that is the actual ministry producing or creating the conference.

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Yeah, so nonconformist is a separate entity. It's in Zone 50133, similar to Grace Community Church and Grace to You, or Ligonier and St.

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Andrews there in Orlando. So it's a side ministry that is connected with our church, but it is better suited for doing things that are outside the direct scope of Sunday service.

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So if that means in the future publishing or like a conference or just all kinds of things, whether it's media or really like anything that's kind of beyond the scope of the normal ministries of the local church.

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Well, why don't you define nonconformist for our listeners who may not be familiar with church history, especially in regard to the

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Church of England and the Puritans and so on. So why don't you describe or define nonconformist for us?

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Yeah, so thanks for bringing that up. So nonconformists were these

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Christians in England in the 15th, 16th, 1700s,

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I mean even through to today. But a nonconformist was someone who believed that Jesus was head of the church, not the king or queen of England.

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And so as a result of that, they didn't participate in the

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Church of England and the Anglican system. There's been all kinds of issues throughout history.

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There was like the Act of Uniformity, where I believe that was in 1662, but I could be wrong.

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The Act of Uniformity was passed to say that every church had to use the

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Book of Common Prayer. And if you didn't use the Book of Common Prayer for your church's liturgy, then that was in violation of the law.

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So you had events like the Great Ejection. No, the

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Great Ejection was in 1662. That was when over 2 ,000 nonconformist ministers were kicked out of their churches and kicked out of their homes, because many of them lived in the parsonages attached to the churches.

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And so these were men like John Bunyan, and I believe

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Matthew Henry was a nonconformist minister as well. Most of the

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Puritans were nonconformists, and they were persecuted heavily for their allegiance to Jesus and saying that Christ was the head of the church.

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And so when I started nonconformist ministries last year, knowing that there were things that I'm burdened to do for the sake of the gospel that are perhaps a little outside the scope of the ordinary

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Sunday service and Sunday church activities, I was looking for a name for a ministry, for a nonprofit, and through church history

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I've always appreciated the nonconformists. And then in my visits to England, I visited

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London and went to the Metropolitan Tabernacle, and I realized these people at Spurgeon's Church are still using that term, nonconformist, and I think that that's a good thing.

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And here in the States, and in New York in particular, there's very much a spirit of conformity to the spirit of the age, and we just go with the flow.

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Whatever culture says, we put some Jesus -savored sprinkles on top, and we go with it.

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So the name nonconformist ministries, even that itself is a dividing line, or it's a line in the sand.

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It's something that says, hey, this is who we are, and we're not ashamed of it.

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So that's the nutshell behind the name nonconformist ministries.

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Yeah, I was actually surprised watching a documentary on Charles Spurgeon recently.

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I already knew that he had no formal education, which is quite amazing.

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When you read his writings, he was obviously quite a brilliant man, even pastoring when he was 16 years old.

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But during the documentary, I was quite surprised that the reason that he was unable to attend seminary was at that time in the 19th century, and I'm assuming prior, you could not attend seminary if you were not

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Anglican. And so I was assuming that this documentary was correct in that information.

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I was quite surprised by that. Well, you have quite the lineup of speakers at this conference.

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It looks like there's going to be almost as many speakers as people in attendance. Wow. Well, I don't mean to say that you're going to be poorly attended.

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I was actually inflating the number of speakers. Well, I was going to make that joke myself, but you beat me to it.

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Well, the lineup includes my longtime friend,

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Mike O 'Fallon, founder of Sovereign Alliance. Also on the lineup is

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Josh Bice, who is not only pastor of Praise Mill Baptist Church in Douglasville, Georgia, but he is also the founder of G3 Ministries.

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Virgil Walker, who is half of the podcast host

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Just Thinking, along with Darrell Bernard Harrison, and he is also, on top of that, the executive director of operations for G3 Ministries.

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Darrell Bernard Harrison, who is the dean of social media at John MacArthur's ministry.

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Grace to you. And you, Andy Woodard, pastor of Providence Baptist Church of New York City.

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And the photographs that you've provided on the website, I do not recognize the other three brethren on the roster, so perhaps you could tell us about them.

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Yes, we have on that website, ncc .nyc .org. We've got

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Mike O 'Fallon, and next to him is Mike Ebendroff. Mike Ebendroff is... Oh, yeah, I've interviewed him.

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Yeah, he's up in the Boston area in Massachusetts. We met through PMS.

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He was one of the adjunct professors in my doctoral program, and he and I really hit it off.

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And both being in the Northeast, we committed to keeping in touch, and he has become a good friend and a close mentor, particularly as we were going through the difficulties last year with the church and then restarting.

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Underneath of Mike in this picture is John Benzinger. John is one of my classmates from that PMS doctoral program.

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He pastors a church out in Arizona in the Phoenix area, which he calls the Real Redeemer, Redeemer Bible Church, and he's a solid, solid brother.

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And you might be familiar with his more famous former associate pastor,

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Kosti Hinn. Oh, yeah. He worked with John for a couple of years, and just this fall has launched his own church.

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So, yeah, John is the senior pastor of Redeemer Bible Church. They've gone through explosive growth in the last few years.

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When we first met, his church had maybe 200 or 300 people, and now, three years later, they've got like 1 ,500 people.

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It's, I mean, like they've hired faculty members from PMS to come and teach, to come on staff with them to lead their, like, men's training, like theological training.

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So they've really seen a tremendous move of the Spirit of God in their church. So next to John Benzinger is a newer friend of mine named

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Ryan Helfenbein. Ryan is the executive director of the

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Standing For Freedom Center at Liberty University. I met Ryan at G3 this last, this fall.

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Oh, yeah, he gave a speech. He wasn't one of the speakers on the roster, but he gave a speech there, didn't he, or not?

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Yeah. Yeah, I wasn't in the room for that, but he did speak, and we were chatting right before it, and he was like,

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Andy, what should I say to these people? And I was like, I don't know, but we kind of talked through some ideas.

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But he's an adamantly anti -woke guy.

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He went to Southern Seminary, and so we kind of share that stuff in common of, you know, being in that system but having the same convictions on issues related to CRT and social justice and all that sort of thing.

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Yes, I was actually quite embarrassed because when everybody was packing up and breaking down their booths after the

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G3 conference was over, I was greeting a woman who was departing the conference hall, and she was with, his name just slipped my mind, the brother.

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Oh, Ryan. Yeah, she was standing next to him. And I looked at this woman and I said, where do

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I know you? I know that I know you from somewhere. Have I interviewed you? I know there was something that causes me to recognize you.

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And she said, well, you probably see me around. And then I realized somebody told me that's Jenna Ellis, one of Donald Trump's lawyers, who

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I've seen on TV many, many times, and I just completely forgot who she was. Yeah.

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Yeah, so Ryan runs the Freedom Center down at Liberty, and he invited me to speak at their recent conference about three weeks ago.

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Jenna Ellis, Trump's lawyer. Jenna also represented MacArthur against the state of California and successfully defeated the state.

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I mean, they won that lawsuit, and she was the attorney involved in that.

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But Jenna was also speaking at that conference and talking about the

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Constitution and things related to liberty and freedom and such.

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So when Ryan invited me to speak at that, I had already invited him to speak at this conference, but it's even more of a natural invite to say, like, hey, yeah, come to New York.

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Come up here and speak. So hoping that he can give a message that's a bit, like, connecting the dots, connecting the dots from, like, hey, here we are as Christians, conservative

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Christians, but what does this look like for us to be engaged in the world in which we live in, in the social sphere, in the political sphere, rather than withdrawing from the world and withdrawing from the events of our age, but being responsible citizens as Christians but also citizens of this country.

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So that's kind of what he does for a living is thinking about those issues. So it's good to have him come and speak.

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Well, I want to repeat the website where people can find out more about this conference and how they can register, ncc .nyc

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.com, ncc .nyc .com.

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And I am so thankful to God that you have founded this very important church in Manhattan, Providence Baptist Church, because I get a number of people throughout the years who have contacted me asking me for church recommendations.

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And now I know I can with confidence recommend Providence Baptist Church in New York City because I know that you are one of the few churches that is a non -woke church.

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Messiah's Reformed Fellowship is another one that I'm aware of. But do you know of any other churches that are taking a public stand where they're opposing all things under the woke umbrella?

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Yeah, so I just met Paul Murphy. Finally, after years of hearing his name, we finally met a few weeks ago.

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Now, other churches that are willing to take a public stand on this, I mean, it's very, very few.

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My friend who is... I call him my lawyer even though I don't really have any lawsuits going on.

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My lawyer is a Pentecostal pastor and a lawyer, and he is very conservative and very anti -woke and publicly anti -woke.

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Now, he and I are not... We don't have the same confession of faith as far as proper

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C, proper F, capital C. But nevertheless, he's an anti -woke guy, and he will preach about it.

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I mean, he's far more bold than I am. He's far more courageous on these issues than I am.

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So I'm thankful for what he's doing on that side of the fence because he runs in circles that I would not be in.

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I'm not involved in the Assemblies of God or even like the

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Hillsong Network and such, but he knows those guys, and he's talking to them. He's rebuking them.

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He's confronting them, and so I'm very thankful for him. He and I kind of made a little pact, which was he said,

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All right, Andy, you go after the Reformed and the Baptist world, and I'll go after the non -denom and the charismatic world.

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And I was like, All right, sounds good. Let's do it. So he's actually one of my board members for Nonconformist Ministries.

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It's not a super busy job. We're a tiny, brand -new ministry, but he helps me stay out of jail, and I just talk to him about what the freedom of speech laws are and what can

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I say or what should I not say and how should we deal with things that are related to legal issues.

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And let me also give our listeners your church website for Providence Baptist Church in New York City.

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It's pbc, for Providence Baptist Church, .nyc, pbc .nyc.

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And many of my listeners, if they are intending to register for this conference, will be delighted to hear that there are no mask requirements.

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Correct. That's good to know. And, well, we know now the speakers of the conference, and I gave a very summarized description of the theme of the conference,

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A Line in the Sand, Bringing Clarity, Courage, and Conviction to the Issues Most Threatening the

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Church Today. But why don't you be more specific about some of the messages that we'll be hearing as far as the themes go.

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Yeah. So each speaker has kind of a specific task at hand for their message.

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Michael Fallon is, I'd asked him to speak Friday night, but I think he might have to speak

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Saturday based on flight schedules and such. But he's going to be giving us his best diagnosis, like a doctor looking at a sick patient.

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He's going to give us a diagnosis saying, hey, here's where we're at, here's what's happening in the world. He has these podcasts that he produces on an almost daily basis, and he's the best guy

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I know of who has such a clear handle on what is going on in the world.

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He'll talk to me and tell me about a certain thing before it happens and then it happens, and then

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I chat with him, and I'm like, yep, you were right again. Yeah, there are very few people out there that James White describes in the same way.

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James White has been very good and right on the money predicting a lot of things, but Michael Fallon has told him things years ago that he was probably pessimistic or somewhat doubtful would actually occur, and then all of a sudden

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Michael proved himself to be absolutely correct. Yes.

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Now, being my usual blunt here, I'm glad to have all of the speakers, but if there was only one speaker

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I could have, it would be Michael Fallon. He's like my number one draft pick that I wanted to have come to this conference.

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So he, I don't know if you know this, but he actually helped James White start

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Alpha and Omega Ministries, and he's on James' board. He's on the G3 board.

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Really? I didn't know the first part at all. Yeah. If you

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Google it, you can find, I think James White has a blog article that explains how

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Mike had invited him to come speak at his church back 20 -plus years ago and do some kind of conference or debate or something, and then in order to like fundraise or pay for the event, they put on,

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Mike put on like a cruise and had James speak on that as well, and that was kind of the beginning of Alpha and Omega Ministries.

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So they go way back. But yes, Mike's going to give us a diagnosis of what's going on.

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Kind of using the law gospel paradigm from Reformed theology, Mike is bringing the law.

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He's saying, hey, this is the bad that's happening in our world, and you need to really understand it.

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In fact, let's pick up where you left off with the other themes and speakers' messages right after the first break, because we have to go to our first break right now.

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And if anybody has any questions before Andy Woodard, our e -mail address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

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chrisarnson at gmail .com. If this is your first or at least your city and state of residence in your country of residence, if you live outside of your city, please let me remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

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It's chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com. We'll be right back after these messages, so don't go away.

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If you just tuned in, our guest today for the full two hours, Pastor Andy Woodard, a very good friend of mine, and I'm so delighted that he is there in the front lines, as it were, in the most liberal, leftist, crazy area in the world, telling the line of Biblical truth there.

37:54

One of the very few pastors and churches there in Manhattan standing firmly for the movement.

38:05

We're talking about a conference that he is hosting next weekend, that's the 10th through the 12th of December, on the theme,

38:15

A Line in the Sand, a non -conformist ministries conference bringing clarity, courage, and conviction to the issues most threatening the church today.

38:24

And Pastor Andy, right before the break, we were just, or you were just wrapping up, describing what our mutual friend

38:34

Michael Fallon is going to be speaking on at this conference. He is one of eight speakers at the conference.

38:40

Why don't you continue with some of the other themes? Yeah, so the next one there pictured is

38:49

Mike Ebendrop. He's, Lord willing, going to be speaking two times.

38:55

And his first message will be more of similar themes to what

39:00

Michael Fallon is talking about with diagnosis and, hey, here's where things are at, here's some bad news.

39:09

He's more than likely going to be approaching it from a heavily theological perspective. And then he's going to do a second message on Christ, Christology, and Jesus as our solution, as our hope and confidence.

39:28

And when are those messages going to be delivered? So, Mike Ebendrop is,

39:33

Lord willing, the schedule is in a bit of flux, but he's tentatively going to be speaking on Friday night and on Saturday, probably

39:44

Saturday late morning. Maybe 10, 10 or 11 a .m.

39:50

on Saturday morning as well. And then, because he has to head back to Massachusetts.

40:03

So, yeah, so he's not going to be staying the full weekend. He's just speaking Friday night and Saturday and heading home.

40:12

Then after that we've got Josh Price. Josh is speaking on Sunday morning for the main

40:17

Sunday service at PBC. And he is going to be speaking on Ecclesiology, the local church.

40:25

I asked him to talk about the text in 1 Timothy 4, that the church is the pillar and grounds of the truth.

40:37

And what happens when the church strays from that, when the church can no longer be trusted for truth?

40:47

What does that mean? But also, what's the importance of the church being a place of truth?

40:57

So, he's going to speak a message that hopefully will be encouraging to believers in their churchmanship, that they would be faithful in the local church.

41:09

And if anybody listening has not heard Josh Price, he alone would be a reason to go to this conference, because he is an absolutely extraordinary and powerful preacher.

41:20

Yeah, I was thinking as you were speaking before the break, that any one of these speakers by themselves could be the key speaker in a mini conference.

41:35

And just how blessed we are to have a bunch of them all together.

41:42

And honestly, part of the reasoning for doing this with all these guys together is for them to have a chance to be together, to hang out together, to speak together and encourage one another.

41:53

For guys like Mike Avendross to get to know them and for the others to get to know him, because he's off.

42:00

I'm looking forward to meeting Mike, because I've interviewed him a number of times, but I've never met him. That's why his photograph was unfamiliar to me.

42:09

And so I'm glad to meet him finally face -to -face. He is a great guy. Not only is he also brilliant and an excellent guest on this program, but he's also got an absolutely hilarious sense of humor.

42:22

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Honestly, all these guys are very multi -talented.

42:32

So, you've got Josh speaking Sunday morning for the main service. Virgil is going to speak during the

42:39

Sunday school hour, so at 9 .30 Sunday morning. And he's going to speak about fear and how we should not be afraid in this moment that we find ourselves living.

42:53

So that will be an adaptation of one of their podcast episodes called, Do Not Be Afraid.

42:59

When I listened to that episode, I thought it was so good. I wanted him to deliver that message here to our congregation and whoever else happens to be in attendance.

43:12

So we're doing those two messages Sunday morning at 9 .30 and then 10 .30, which is when we would normally do

43:18

Sunday school and then the main service. So those two are happening then. Daryl Harrison is going to be speaking either on Friday night or on Saturday, depending on the schedule and some of the other events and other things mainly that Mike O 'Fallon has going on.

43:41

So it depends on when Mike is able to get in. But Daryl is going to speak on critical race theory and its tie to Marxism and the connection to New York City and all of that stuff.

43:57

Because, as I'm sure you're aware, New York is sort of the breeding ground for all sorts of heresies and false teachings and destructive ideas.

44:08

And ideas like critical theory and cultural

44:14

Marxism came from the Frankfurt School in Germany to Columbia University here in New York.

44:22

So that's one major point. Another major point is Black Liberation Theology with James Cone was propagated from New York City at Union Theological Seminary.

44:36

Then there's a few others. I think possibly Walter Rauschenbusch with the

44:41

Social Gospel. Some others as well. So Daryl is going to speak on that topic.

44:52

And then John Benzinger, I've asked him to speak on... So it's tied to Mike O 'Fallon's messages because in Mike's podcast, which he does all the time, he says at the end of his podcast he'll say things like,

45:07

Hey, we must win. There's no losing this. If we lose this fight, there's no future.

45:14

Like, it's over. And so I've asked John to speak on what happens if we don't win?

45:21

What if we lose? Because in my opinion, let's be real,

45:27

I'm not a post -millennialist and I don't think the world is getting more and more Christianized. And so if we don't stop this aggressive agenda that is bent on deconstructing

45:44

Western civilization and really turning the world into a great reset utopia that's going to be just barbaric, what does that mean for us as Christians in the face of genuine persecution?

46:01

Like, what's going to happen in our world if we don't stop this? And what is our call going to look like as Christians no longer living in the freedom and prosperity that we have known for a couple hundred years here in the

46:18

U .S.? So, John's going to talk about that. And then

46:24

I've asked Ryan Helfenbein to speak about what does it look like to be a

46:33

Christian American? Like, what are we supposed to... Like, how are we supposed to think about these political issues?

46:40

How are we supposed to think about our responsibilities as a

46:45

Christian and as an American? Not to withdraw from the culture and say, hey, we don't care what's happening in the world because we're headed for heaven.

46:53

But how to navigate those waters, especially when the world is calling anything that has any hint of conservative

47:05

Christianity, they call that, like, Christian nationalism, they call that just all sorts of things.

47:12

So how do we faithfully steward our responsibilities and privileges as Christians living here in this country, particularly from a

47:23

Baptist angle where we're not trying to make, like, a state church and send all of the

47:30

Pentecostals to the Gulags. We're trying to have freedom of religion, and yet seeing the church really be all that Christ called the church to be.

47:45

So I'm looking forward to hearing what he has to say because I'm not quite sure what he's going to say.

47:51

So it'll be good. Now, if you look on this website with the schedule, the conference schedule, at the bottom of the page,

48:02

I have this Friday night, Saturday, and Sunday schedule. They're listed with sessions one through six, and we've got congregational singing, two messages, and then a panel discussion.

48:13

So that structure is designed that after the first two messages are delivered, then we'll have someone emcee or moderate a discussion with those two people who just spoke.

48:27

So, for example, if Friday night, if we're able to have Michael Fallon speak on Friday night and Mike Avendross, then we might hand

48:36

Virgil Walker a microphone and say, hey, go lead a conversation between those two guys, just to flesh out and apply what was just discussed.

48:46

So we'll do that type of thing after each session in kind of in a similar way to what they've done at conferences like T4G where there's a lot of panel discussion.

48:57

There's a lot of conversation about what was just said and how that works its way out.

49:05

So that's something I'm looking forward to hearing, especially if you hear the interaction, because sometimes conference speakers will say things that another speaker doesn't completely agree with, and I'd love to have that place where they can have conversation about what was just said and also address the questions that are popping into your mind as you're listening.

49:31

So that should be, those panel discussions should be worth the price of admission as well.

49:38

Great. And as far as any negative feedback,

49:44

I remember when you and I would attend the annual foundations conference, the sermon audio conference, they had some threats.

49:58

I don't know how severe they were, but there were some kind of threats from especially the homosexual community about the conferences that were being held in Manhattan.

50:10

Has anything erupted like that yet for the conference that you're listening to?

50:17

We have not had any issues like that. Now because of that issue, because I was involved in the foundations conference,

50:29

I believe all three times that they did that here, they had a lot of attacks from certain gay activists who would then go after their hotel registration.

50:46

They would go and harass the hotel companies and say, Oh, you've got these homophobic

50:52

Christians staying in your hotel and you need to cancel their reservations, cancel their bookings.

51:02

So whenever they would list a hotel on the website, these activists would go and harass those official hotels that were the designated hotels for the conference.

51:16

And so because of that, I didn't even bother doing a designated official hotel for the conference and list it on the website.

51:27

So that's made things a little harder for us, but it's also been easier in the sense that nobody knows which hotel everybody's staying at.

51:38

Yeah. Well, if anybody has any questions, we're going to be going to our midway break right now.

51:49

The midway break, as most of you know, especially if you listen regularly, is a bit longer than the other breaks because Crazy Life Radio 90 .1

51:58

FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a longer break in the middle of the show because they are required by the

52:07

FCC to air their own public service announcements and other local things that geographically localize

52:15

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and all of their other programming to Lake City, Florida.

52:23

So while they do that, we simultaneously air our globally heard commercials.

52:29

So please use this time wisely and write down the information provided by as many of our advertisers as you can and respond to those advertisers.

52:43

The only way that we can remain on the air, folks, is through the funding that comes from our advertisers.

52:50

And the way that you're going to best ensure that our advertisers keep renewing their advertising contracts is to respond to them.

53:01

That will hopefully at least sometimes mean that you're purchasing their products, using their services, visiting their churches, supporting their power church organizations financially.

53:13

But when you can't do any of those things, please at least, at the very least, respond to the advertisements with whatever contact information they provide and thank them for sponsoring

53:28

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. If, indeed, you do love this show and you're grateful that it's on the air, and therefore please thank them.

53:38

Let them know that you are listening. Let them know that you really do thank them for keeping us alive.

53:46

And, of course, use this time also to send in your questions to chrisarnson at gmail .com,

53:52

to Andy Woodard. That's chrisarnson at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

54:00

Give us your first name at least, city and state of residence, and country of residence. And we'll be right back after these messages, so don't go away.

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When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

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Hi, this is John Sampson, Pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona. Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnzen and the

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Iron Sharpens Iron podcast. I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity. He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions.

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While always defending the key doctrines of the Christian faith, I've always been happy to point people to this podcast knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the

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Internet where folk won't be led astray. I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide.

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This is a day of great spiritual compromise. And yet God has raised Chris up for just such a time.

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And knowing this, it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances.

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I'm pleased to do so and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting

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Iron Sharpens Iron financially. Would you consider sending either a one -time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry?

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I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would. All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com

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where you can click support. That's ironsharpensironradio .com. Here's what

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Gary DeMar, president of American Vision, had to say about Iron Sharpens Iron Radio recently.

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Good to be back. Chris, I always enjoy our time here. I have to tell you, you're one of the better interviewers out there, and I've been doing this for more than 30 years.

57:41

Wow, that's some compliment. How much do I owe you for that? You don't have to owe me anything.

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We're in good shape. I'm glad you said it on the air so I don't have to brag about myself.

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Tell your friends and loved ones about Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, airing live Monday through Friday, 4 to 6 p .m.

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Eastern Time, at ironsharpensironradio .com. I'm Dr.

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Tony Costa, professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary. I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love,

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Hope Reform Baptist Church in Coram, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Jansen and Christopher McDowell.

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It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God, like the dear saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Coram, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in his holy word, and to enthusiastically proclaim

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Christ Jesus the King and his doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island, and beyond.

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I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love, as I have.

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For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.

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That's hopereformedli .net. Or call 631 -696 -5711.

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That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, New York, that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.

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We are excited to announce another new member of the Iron Sharpens Iron radio advertising family,

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Do you know what they all have in common? They all require training, assessments, and certifications. But do you know what requires no training at all?

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Becoming a parent. My name is A .M. Brewster. I'm the president of Truth Love Parents and host of its award -winning podcast.

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I've been a biblical family counselor since the early 2000s. And what I've discovered is that the majority of Christian parents have never been biblically equipped to do the work of the ministry in their homes.

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That's why Truth Love Parent exists. We serve God by equipping dads and moms to be the ambassador parents

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Please visit us at truthloveparent .com. Truth Love Parents As host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

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A church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey, pastored by Alan Dunn.

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Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's God's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshipped and how he shall be represented in the world.

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They believe churches need to turn to the Bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship

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Or call them at 908 -996 -7654 That's 908 -996 -7654

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Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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If you love Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, one of the best ways you can help keep the show on the air is by supporting our advertisers.

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One such faithful advertiser, who really believes in what Chris Hansen is doing, is

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Dan is the president and founder of the Historical Bible Society. Their mission?

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Hope to see you there! Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said,

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01:11:22

Before I return to my guest today, Andy Woodard of Providence Baptist Church of New York City and our discussion on the upcoming conference that he is having next weekend at Providence Baptist Church we just have some important announcements to make.

01:11:42

First of all, I really hope that you do attend this conference that I am going to be attending,

01:11:52

God willing, in Manhattan. Let me take this time to also repeat the information that we have been providing throughout the interview, but this conference is being held from the 10th through the 12th of December at Providence Baptist Church in Manhattan and there are eight speakers at this conference and all of these speakers are quite impressive, quite powerful.

01:12:19

I have heard the majority of these men speak publicly and the majority of them have been guests on my program.

01:12:28

In fact, only two have not yet been on the program and I intend to change that very soon,

01:12:34

God willing, but for more details go to ncc .nyc

01:12:40

forward slash conference ncc .nyc forward slash conference and I hope to see you there.

01:12:49

Please look for me if you attend and ask somebody to point me out to you if you have never seen my photograph or never met me before and I would love to greet as many of you as possible who register for this conference

01:13:04

I'm looking forward to be there with bated breath Also, folks, if you love this show and you don't want it to disappear

01:13:13

I'm asking you to please go to arnottropedesignradio .com

01:13:18

click support, then click click to donate now You can donate instantly in that fashion through a debit or credit card and if you prefer snail mail an address will appear on the screen where you can send checks made payable through Arnottrope Design Radio.

01:13:38

By the way, that address will be changing as of January 1st because we are moving into new facilities here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania Very excited about that as much as I love where I am right now and as much as I will miss this historic building, the parsonage of 19th century gospel minister

01:13:57

George Norcross I am nonetheless looking forward and excited about our new facility, but you might want to send us an email to check on the address before mailing a check through snail mail but you can always deposit a check into the account of Arnottrope Design Radio instantly at arnottropedesignradio .com,

01:14:18

click support, then click to donate now. Remember folks as I try to remember myself to remind you every day, it's a lot of reminding in that sentence, but please never siphon money away from your regular giving that you are accustomed to, to your own local church where you are a member in order to give to Arnottrope Design Radio please never do that One of the main reasons

01:14:48

I started this show back in 2005 on Long Island, New York at WNYG and WGBB radio in West Babylon, Long Island One of the main reasons that I founded this show and then relaunched it here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania in 2015, was to be a friend, a helping hand, and a platform for the local pastor and the local church, therefore

01:15:16

I never want to do anything that hinders or harms the local church therefore don't punish your own church financially by giving them less than you are accustomed to in order to give to us please don't do that, and please don't neglect your family regarding your financial responsibilities and providing for your family if you are really struggling to survive and make ends meet

01:15:42

I don't want to take food off of your dinner table by you donating to Arnottrope Design Radio so please remember that but if you are blessed financially above and beyond your ability to provide for your church and family please, if you have extra money in the bank if you have extra money for recreational purposes and trivial purposes, please

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I'm asking you, if you love the show, go to ArnottropeDesignRadio .com, click support, then click click to donate now last but not least, if you are not a member of a local

01:16:18

God -honoring, biblically faithful church no matter where in the world you live

01:16:23

I may be able to help you find a church I have extensive lists spanning the globe of biblically faithful churches and I may just have one on the lists or even more than one that are near where you live or where you're vacationing or where your friends and family and neighbors live if they don't have a church home so please, send me an email if you are in that condition to chrisarmson at gmail .com

01:16:52

chrisarmson at gmail .com and put I need a church in the subject line that's chrisarmson at gmail .com

01:17:00

I need a church in the subject line that's also the email address where you can send in questions for our guest

01:17:08

Andy Woodard and that's chrisarmson at gmail .com chrisarmson at gmail .com

01:17:16

as always, give us your first name at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside of the

01:17:24

USA Pastor Andy, tell us about some of these crucial issues the main issues that pose the greatest threat to the church today that you believe we must take more of an aggressive stand in regard to these threats than most churches perhaps are doing yeah,

01:17:52

I'm looking to pull up my ad that I made for this one is the closure of churches

01:18:02

I think it's a huge problem there are still churches that are closed but on the other hand at this point,

01:18:11

COVID started over a year and a half ago, almost two years ago and if the churches go closed, can you even call it a church so that's one thing another is the relationship between church and state viewing the government as having jurisdiction and authority over the church that was one of the issues related to reopening churches and lockdowns and mask mandates does the government have the authority to mandate the way you worship

01:18:49

God in the church does it have the authority to tell you that you have to wear a certain article of clothing on your face or that you have to have a certain health procedure in order to attend the church that's another issue but it's all tied in together and it's all tied to this issue of who's in charge is

01:19:12

Christ in charge of His church or is the

01:19:17

Democratic Party in charge of the church tied to all these things another issue is an extreme

01:19:28

Christian pietism where Christians are significantly disengaged from society and the culture and they basically think, hey,

01:19:39

I've got my salvation and that's all that matters instead of saying, hey, we were called to live faithfully in this world like Ephesians 2 .10

01:19:54

says a workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works so it's not just enough to say hey, we ratified

01:20:03

Solos, we're saved by grace through faith in Christ and that's the only thing

01:20:09

I need to think about or give attention to Related to this as well is your eschatology there is some really creepy eschatology coming out of leftist political progressive evangelicals that are kind of driving some of this

01:20:37

I haven't heard specifically about the eschatological circumstances what is that?

01:20:47

I have to chat with Michael Fallon and see if he's going to talk about that at the conference especially coming out of Asia there are some of these billionaire donors who are funding the work evangelical movement and some of them have some really crazy eschatology and that's motivating them to try to basically destroy

01:21:17

America because they believe it's the antichrist or something and so in America we have in our normal eschatology we have some dispensationalists who believe hey, if we can speed up the return of Christ that's a good thing and we can do that by sort of greasing the rails to make society worse so then

01:21:47

Jesus will come back this idea that's coming out of certain people in Asia is like a really really twisted version of that and but I'm not sure how much

01:22:05

I can say about it right now because it's something that apparently is caught with lawsuits and non -disclosure agreements so, go ahead no,

01:22:24

I just thought you might have been disconnected there yeah, no, no so, let's see for cultural issues, obviously critical race theory is a huge one one issue that I'm seeing with that and one that needs to be addressed is the argument that CRT doesn't exist except in law school and it's not being taught in churches, it's not being taught in schools that whole argument is just lies it's false

01:23:00

I heard from a young man that I met in Denton, Texas when

01:23:08

I was manning an exhibitors booth for Iron Trump and Zion Radio this young man approached the booth and said that he was a member of a church in Mechanicsburg, which is the neighboring town to Carlisle, where I live and there's a very prominent so -called conservative evangelical congregation there and the wives of one of the elders is teaching

01:23:37

Whiteness 101 so, it's just amazing where this rears its ugly head, this stuff it's just amazing yeah there are issues of believers being not even just believers, but conservatives, anyway, being fired from their jobs for not getting vaccinated or not getting vaccinated enough there are pastors who are not willing to sign religious exemptions for their church members

01:24:21

I've had dozens and dozens of people come to me from across the New York area asking for me to sign their religious exemption because their pastor won't do it then there's just so many issues that are all pressing

01:24:41

I think another thing that's very tempting for people on our side of these issues is to get overly distracted by these things and forget the main purpose and the main mission which is preaching

01:24:59

Christ so we shouldn't just say hey, these are the things that are wrong but we should also say what the things are that are right and that's definitely a constant temptation and moving churches that's a big problem all across the country we're having people leaving our church to move to other states where they have more freedom for the sake of their jobs and such and they're having incredibly hard times finding found churches in other parts of the country because a lot of other places haven't had to be on the offensive and they've just been in a very pro -Christian culture for generations and then these pastors don't want to be viewed as overly polemic or caustic or astermetic or whatever word you want to put on it so these pastors won't say anything bad about anything bad and the result is the entire church is just sort of drifting off to the left along with the culture, the media and the spirit of the age so that's a big problem as well and that's in every circle whether that's conservative

01:26:36

Southern Baptist churches or the TMS circle some of my classmates at TMS they're somewhat vocal in our group chat about, hey, if you disagree with MacArthur he should not be standing up against Governor Newsom and if the governor tells the church to close the church should close and they should stay closed forever until the government says it's okay to reopen because Romans 13 so those types of things are even in our circles of conservative reform type circles yeah, that's really frightening stuff you expect it from mainline liberal, leftist, apostate groups but when it's rising up amongst our fellow conservative reformed brethren even concessionally reformed, it's just amazing you already addressed this question, but obviously this person tuned in late, and for the sake of others who tuned in late he didn't provide us with his city and state residence, as I've been requesting but Jake asks are you having the conference in the

01:28:04

Rock Church building and is there a mask or vaccine requirement for seats?

01:28:11

The second one is the issue that we already addressed yes, so that is the location, yes and no, there are no mandates required but I will mention that you do need to register we will have people at the door asking for your name and if your name is not on the sheet you're going to need to register before we let you in we do have security as well, so if there's any antagonists who are listening to this or wanting to do some funny business or whatever,

01:28:53

I want you to know that there will be undercover law enforcement in the building so anybody attending the conference needs to register and there will be there will be security on site

01:29:12

OK, we have Mike from Monroe, New York Mike says, we talk about CRT cultural

01:29:21

Marxism and yet I don't hear anyone calling out the Gospel Coalition Tim Keller, John Piper, Al Mohler, Ligon Duncan Naviti Anyabwile, to name a few along with a host of others associated with the

01:29:36

Gospel Coalition will work with and will share the stage with all sorts of Christian Socialists and outright

01:29:44

Marxists, even pro -LGBTQ proponents. Satan's children who operate in this circle, like Liberation Theology connoisseur,

01:29:56

Mississippi Democrat and social advocate John Perkins someone who has received accolades from John MacArthur and Al Mohler, seems to get a pass on their unholy alliances with such devious and unsaved men.

01:30:12

The witness against those named above is undeniable if you take the time to look and listen to what they say.

01:30:20

Piper's relationship with Rick Warren is one outstanding example of such infidelity. The biblical doctrine of having no fellowship with the works of darkness apparently has no impact with these compromisers, and in my opinion, cowards.

01:30:36

Tim Keller being the most egregious example of a reformed Christian Socialist.

01:30:41

His words and writings clearly expose him for what he truly is. Wokeness has come to reform

01:30:46

Christianity whether one is willing to admit it or not would our brother see these men as I do and if so, is he as troubled as I am about their wicked influence?

01:31:02

A lot, so the question was do I agree with that assessment or? Yeah, does it trouble you as much as it troubles him?

01:31:11

Yeah, I mean it troubles me a lot I attended Southern Seminary and I was in Al Mohler Sunday School class and I heard people saying things here and there about things on the internet and back in 2015 and 2016

01:31:30

I was woke, I was you know, I bought, I drunk the Kool -Aid

01:31:35

I bought along with, not, I wasn't like as woke as the

01:31:40

BDI Nebulae, but I was definitely you know, lamenting everything that came out of CNN instead of saying, wait a second, is that even true?

01:31:52

So I definitely had a woke streak in me back in 2015 and then eventually, well after I graduated and moved back to New York, I started seeing things a little more clearly down at Southern and things that I heard people say about Al Mohler, I started realizing like, okay, they're telling the truth and that Mohler is not who he seems to be because he wants to come across as this defender of the faith, that he's trusted for truth and all that sort of thing, but as he said in MacArthur's Shepherd's Conference panel, you should judge him by who he platforms, and if you judge him by who he platforms, you'll realize he's not nearly as conservative as he talks like he is.

01:32:51

Guys like Jarvis Williams, Russell Moore, Matthew Hall, Curtis Wood, that's

01:33:00

Curtis, the analytical tool Wood, these people are not conservative.

01:33:08

They are advancing CRT, they believe in it, they teach it, they promote it and they are speaking with torqued tongues to be accepted in conservative evangelical circles promoting their progressive agenda.

01:33:31

So I see that as a huge problem. Now, I'd say someone like Tim Keller, I see Tim Keller more in the category of like a

01:33:39

Beth Moore or a Joel Osteen, where it's like there is so much there that is so obviously bad that sometimes

01:33:53

I forget that not everybody sees it already because in those circles that I tend to run in or that I'm more comfortable running in, they are addressing that, they are calling out these people by name.

01:34:07

I mean, one of my friends sent me an article from Davidi's blog platform in 2016 on the

01:34:15

Gospel Coalition when he advocated for voting for Hillary over Trump and my friend said, hey, this needs to get more publicity because the

01:34:25

Supreme Court hearing is being revisited today and if the Supreme Court overturns

01:34:31

Roe vs. Wade that's going to be because of Trump's appointment to the Supreme Court and that needs more attention.

01:34:39

So, that was my friend sending me that message so then I went on Twitter and I retweeted it.

01:34:47

So anyway, the purpose of this conference though is to hopefully motivate some of these people that are more conservative but they're not quite willing to draw a line in the sand.

01:35:01

They're not quite willing to get off the fence and certainly not willing to confront someone like an

01:35:08

Owler or a Tim Keller or any of these people that are speaking out of both sides of their mouth.

01:35:16

They're both a conservative and a progressive and they're employing both conservatives and progressives to teach their students, to train church planners, to do whatever it is that their organizations will do.

01:35:32

I do agree that it's a massive problem but I think the problem is far worse than any of us are aware of.

01:35:41

Now, tell us more about this John Perkins individual, the listener,

01:35:48

Mike from Monroe, New York was critical of one of my greatest living heroes,

01:35:55

John McCarthy saying that he has poured accolades on this individual.

01:36:06

Now, I don't know what the timing of that was. I had leaders in the woke movement on my show and that was nine years ago when they were saying 180 degree different things than they're saying now.

01:36:20

That would include Sabiti and Yagwile. By the way, Sabiti's book

01:36:26

The Clawing of African American Theology is excellent but he is now really saying 180 degree different things than he wrote in that book and to my knowledge,

01:36:38

I don't know if you have heard anything I've never heard Sabiti say, yes I wrote that I used to believe these things but I recant that,

01:36:45

I repent I've never heard him say anything like that but it's as if these folks, some of them anyway are pretending that they always had these woke views but what about this person

01:37:03

John Perkins and the accolades from somebody that I'm sure you and I both admire greatly,

01:37:09

John McCarthy Yeah, so I'm not super familiar with John Perkins other than that he is a civil rights activist who's pretty old now,

01:37:25

I'm not sure if he's still alive but I was very surprised when

01:37:32

McCarthy pulled his name out and said, oh yeah I marched with John Perkins back in the day. Now John Perkins has come out against that and has tried to criticize

01:37:47

McCarthy's version of the event from the day that MLK was shot and that whole story that blew up on the blogosphere a couple years ago

01:38:04

I'm not sure what the question is, do I like John Perkins or what do I think about McCarthy speaking favorably of him

01:38:12

I'm not sure why he did that and I wish that he would not but I also recognize that McCarthy is 82 years old

01:38:21

I think and I hope that I am as faithful to the

01:38:27

Lord at 82 as he is at 82 so I'm not sure what else to say on John Perkins I think that we just have to be very careful about overreacting to statements and comments as well and somebody could say

01:38:53

Chris Armson must be woke because he has had the BDN and Anthony Bradley on his program and has promoted their books but that was nine years ago so we have to be very careful and in fact

01:39:09

I'd like to have them on anyway today but to have more of a debate format with them

01:39:14

I don't think that they would ever do it and I'm very open to that not that I want some kind of ugly shouting match or anything as entertaining as those sometimes are but anyway well thank you

01:39:33

Mike for sending in your question we have to go to our final break right now and if anybody wants to get their question read on the air

01:39:44

I advise you to send it in immediately because we're rapidly running out of time chrisarmson at gmail .com

01:39:49

chrisarmson at gmail .com give us your first name at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the

01:39:58

USA we'll be right back here for these messages and the

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In your opinion, should I fear that I'm risking my life by attending the

01:52:07

Wine in the Sand conference? That is an interesting question I used to love going to Manhattan I used to love going to Manhattan In fact, it was a favorite place that my late wife and I would visit so many wonderful memories of Broadway shows and restaurants

01:52:28

I have a ton of memories of shows from New York City I have a ton of memories of shows from New York City That was all before Mayor de

01:52:36

Blasio turned this into a much more dangerous place

01:52:42

What's your opinion about what the anonymous listener said? In general, crime rates have gone up In general, crime rates have gone up but I was in the

01:52:55

South Bronx yesterday which is one of the most dangerous parts of the most dangerous borough in the city and had no issues at all

01:53:05

Together with a homeless guy who came on the train and was acting wild and crazy and scaring people but then someone else on the train confronted him and then he stopped

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I'm not homeless, I was just having a bad day Just kidding folks

01:53:25

Our conference is in the Upper East Side and the Upper East Side is a very, very safe neighborhood

01:53:32

We're also in Manhattan and Manhattan is pretty much the safest borough in New York You're definitely not risking anything significant by coming anything significant by coming but I would encourage everyone to just be alert and aware and don't take things from strangers and don't get into any unmarked vans late at night with strangers late at night with strangers

01:54:02

But yeah, you'll be fine You're not risking your life coming into New York You heard it there folks

01:54:11

It's faster in New York I used to be able to very confidently tell that to people because people who had never been to Manhattan have all kinds of crazy notions in their head largely because of movies and things and I used to be able to tell them with confidence before de

01:54:35

Blasio got in there that it was one of the safest places in America especially since after 9 -11 you saw military walking around there were armed military walking around but like I said,

01:54:48

I haven't been there since de Blasio won the election but I'm very happy to hear your added words of confidence to visit

01:55:00

Manhattan, especially for this conference Well I want you to just summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today before we go off the air

01:55:10

Yeah so if you're able to come to the conference if you live within about a 2 -3 hour radius of New York City, I would really encourage you to come to the conference

01:55:21

You can register online at ncc .nyc forward slash conference

01:55:27

That's ncc as in non -conformist conference ncc .nyc

01:55:32

forward slash conference Money is tight and you want to come but your registration fee is an issue or whatever just contact me,

01:55:42

I can get you a coupon code to register for either cheaper or free We want to see people come

01:55:48

If you're not able to come but you're interested in this whole thing just wait and we'll have the content up on YouTube in the weeks to come and also if you are interested in financially supporting the conference, we are definitely in need of donors to help make this thing happen so your donations will directly go to help provide hotel airplane tickets and payment or gifts to the speakers so if you're listening to this and you would like to help make this thing happen you're welcome back

01:56:59

This question is also anonymous Why is it that reformed ministries and churches all over the world do not seem to find

01:57:10

New York City to be a top priority as far as sending out missionaries and planting churches

01:57:16

It's very frustrating to learn that there are very few biblically solid confessional reformed churches in Manhattan Why on earth is this the case?

01:57:30

I really don't know but if I had to guess it would be because people have a naive view of Tim Keller and they think that Tim Keller is confessionally reformed and doctrinally sound and so because Tim Keller basically owned

01:57:49

New York evangelicalism for all practical purposes, a lot of people don't think that there's a need in the same way that they think of Burbank, California is

01:58:01

John MacArthur territory and Minneapolis is John Piper territory so New York is

01:58:07

Tim Keller territory and there's no need to send missionaries there because Tim Keller is planting every church in New York and that is generally very true but I would say because of that there is a need for confessionally reformed conservative churches that actually agree with their statements of faith instead of denying their statements of faith

01:58:34

Amen Well, one more time, let me repeat the website for this conference ncc .nyc

01:58:42

That's ncc .nyc .com I want to thank you so much

01:58:48

Pastor Andy for being my guest today I'm eagerly looking forward with great enthusiasm to see you once again in Manhattan next weekend as I attend this conference

01:58:59

I want to thank everybody who listened, especially those who took the time to write I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater