Jon Reacts to “Mega-Churchianity”

Conversations That Matter

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Welcome to the conversations that matter podcast. I'm your host John Harris for this cell phone travel edition

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I have a request actually to request to talk about a video called mega Churchianity, so I really quickly want to give you my reaction to this video

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It's about I don't know over 200 ,000 views on YouTube and the premise seems to be that there's this insider group of elites who?

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Really form a guild they try to benefit themselves and membership in the guild confers monetary

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Rewards as well as just perks and status and and so this all came about as a result of the rise of the mega church model

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And that's a consolidation model where the church is now run more like a business than a church And I think there's so much to say about this that is in support of that particular narrative because we all know something exists

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That some call Big Eva. I call it the evangelical industrial complex. You can call it a guild, but it's really an interconnected often

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Inter woven and interdependent group of organizations and individuals and missions organizations and denominations and publishing houses and conferences and they all kind of form a web in which

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They support one another they aren't allowed to criticize one another and if they do criticize that criticism has to have a limit

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It can't it can't be too much. It must be mild and that's why I think there's been reluctance even

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Among organizations that many of you would consider to be very conservative against social justice I mean, they're they're fighting the good fight

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But if you really think about it, how much have they actually said about false teaching? in organizations that perhaps members of their church

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Have been impacted by or listen to even uh now or read they they're very reluctant to say anything too harsh sounding

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Uh, that's where the tone issue comes in and the winsomeness and all this it's it's not so much

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I mean it is about the world But it's it's it's not just about the world and what the world thinks of us and the world is watching

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That's certainly an aspect of this but there's this also this sense of we need to play nice together in these organizations in order to uh, keep providing the services and the goods that evangelicals want and consume and Gain their allegiance and their money and everything else that comes with that.

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So there's a business aspect to this too So, you know, let me give you an example so if you are And in fact, this is a real example.

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I'll give you a real example from the wild out there. So I i'm thinking right now of a seminary probably 99 of you listening think is one of the better options a conservative seminary

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And I would say it's probably one of the better options as well. However, this particular seminary is very um, sensitive about saying critical things about other

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Institutions of higher learning and evangelicalism including seminaries in fact, this particular seminary has not even

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It's really been recent. It wasn't that long ago made it mandatory for professors there to I I believe it was get written approval before Criticizing or saying anything negative about professors at other seminaries and this is a recent thing

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Didn't used to be like that in fact academics used to be able to this sounds like ancient history But used to be able to criticize each other all the time

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They had public debates all the time Even people working at the same institution would often have debates with one another and this was part of the learning process

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Well, not anymore That those days are gone now It's got to be just support and if you don't support kind of shut up and if you aren't going to shut up At least soft pedal your criticisms

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And and so I I know that this has been happening all over the place. I know personally I bet you 95 or more of the organizations in evangelicalism ones that you even consider to be

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Conservative against social justice would have nothing to do with someone like myself Or ad robles or anyone who's really gone hard after the social justice movement who's used the term false teachers who's

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Has the scars to prove, you know, how how hard that they've gone after this they would be reluctant to ever ever ever

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Partner with someone like that or allow them to have a booth at their conference or allow them to um, you know want even invite them to come in and and maybe uh,

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Talk about it or or write something for their journal or and that's because there is a guild that exists and even

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Conservatives are part of it. Now. I think you see kind of like two guilds ish forming, but there's still a lot of uh, connections between both and Uh, and and so in the case of the seminary

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I just mentioned if they were to criticize or allow their professors to criticize members of other seminaries

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What would happen is those seminaries or those bible schools would be reluctant perhaps to send or recommend students go to uh their particular seminary so if you got a bachelors in bible and you want to go to seminary or if you got a seminary degree and you want to go on to thd work or uh get a

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A d -min or or you know, you want to take it higher then, you know Let's let's say you graduated from southern seminary and then a professor criticizes a professor at southern seminary

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Or or you go after southern seminary and this is coming from a conservative seminary does this then they're not going to recommend students to go to your seminary and you're also going to have you're going to put into jeopardy perhaps contracts that might exist in cooperation between each other and conferences that could possibly be held in pooling each other's resources and so there has to be consolidation there has to be a pooling of resources there has to be um just working together and You scratch your back my back i'll scratch yours in order to Uh, let allow this kind of thing to to happen

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And so I think that um the documentary gets some of this stuff, right? Because it does parallel I think the rise of mega churches in some ways.

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I mean, it's the same kind of um It's it's this celebrity christianity this uh, this guild that's formed as a result of celebrity christianity and the all the things that are

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Provided the optics really that's and that's really what i'm thinking of the optics, uh that exist at Um many of these churches, um, those those are the front door for people when they are looking at places to go to school or books to read or um

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Missions organizations to partner with all of that the mega church model has served sort of as a front door now,

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I don't know for how much longer that's going to be Happening, but I I think they're that mega churchy entity has a point with this that there is something to that now

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What I want to say is that I don't think this is Unique in other words.

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I don't think that a nefarious group of people got together in a smoke -filled room Um, of course the baptist wasn't smoking in that room, but you know all the presbyterians smoking

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I don't know but they're they're sitting there thinking. What are we going to do to fleece the flock more man?

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What can we do? Let's do mega churches. I don't think that's what's happening. I think what's happening is Something way bigger than that.

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It's something it's a social transformation that has happened on every level of our society

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It's not just in our government either. We see consolidation with our government. We see consolidation with our voluntary associations uh, we see consolidation with um

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Uh things like um Even you know the the the restaurants that we frequent and the gyms we go to and you know

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We're we're looking for walmart. We're looking for Uh fast food. We're looking for What can provide my needs in the quickest way possible?

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And give me the most stuff that I could possibly want, uh in the shortest time period it's convenience.

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It's Um, it's modernity it's industrialization. It's it's efficiency. It's all of these things

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Have happened all around us uh, and of course in the case of government, it's really not efficiency, but uh, there's there's there's kind of a merger between government and big business and the local is becoming

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There's less control on the local level more on the national level And we just see this kind of thing happening everywhere.

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And the thing is people choose it. It's not just that It's a bunch of tyrants getting together, although that does happen i'm not saying it doesn't

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But it's that people actually want the walmart of churches They want to go to church and they don't want to see a cemetery there

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I mean that could make them think about death who wants that they want to just think happy things Uh, they want to see smiling people.

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I mean, it's a product they want to see. Um They they want their their coffee when they get there

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So the coffee shop's got to be there and they want and i'm not saying each any of these things are bad in and of themselves but you can definitely see that the strip mall kind of church model which many of you might go to one and i'm not saying that's bad either but Just just realize that this is a new thing for the most part and it's you just got to be careful of it because you can end up being

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You know, you get your logo you get your brand and you're you're just like a corporate restaurant in town and you're providing services and the more services you you provide for the wives and the kids and the husbands and the retreat and this

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And that and it becomes like almost a social club that you you join and and mega church has really offered this

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Uh, it's a product that they're selling and people have bought it a lot of people have now

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I don't know for how much longer that can last because There's a projection of an image and it's artificial to some extent

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And people I think are looking for more authentic now They know that you can go on tiktok and project any kind of image you want about yourself

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But what's real what's really real what kind of people have skin in the game and actually want to sacrifice

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Those are the kind of people that I think are going to be more The ones that attract the following the people who are willing to sacrifice who have principles

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Uh, and I I think we're we're in a transitory phase and i'm because we're not out of The big evil land yet at all, but I think that There's a crack in that foundation

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So that's one of the points I want to make number one This kind of thing this consolidation tendency, uh this big business model this

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Industrialization of The church this has happened. Not just with the church. It's happened in just about every segment of society you can think of Now the other thing that I wanted to mention is not all the individuals

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I think involved in a big mega church or an evangelical organization. That's large are necessarily parts

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Consciously part of uh Propagating the the big eva, you know

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Brand or model or whatever. They're they're not they're not just beholden to the guild receiving benefits from the guild and therefore

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Must support the guild and can't say anything negative about the guilt and I want to use as an example. John mccarthur here, uh, because uh the video

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Goes after john mccarthur to some extent that and it uses some some hit piece stuff that about his the price of his watch and the properties that that he or the the house that he has and And then it shows him at the shepherd's conference q a from I think it was 2018 where he says that he doesn't want to Go after his friends

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And you know, he'll just be left with him and phil johnson if he goes after his friends He doesn't want to oppose them now The ironic part is he is kind of left with just himself and phil johnson at this point

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Even though he chose not to go after his friends because his friends Chose to go after him many of them

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Uh, and I I mean i'm just now coming up with examples in my head after the beth moore go home thing lincoln duncan, uh, decided to tweet a veiled um

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Rejection of what mccarthur said a condemnation of what he said. Um, you have mark devor and jonathan leeman with the whole

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Being critical of grace community church for opening up Their church during covet too early. Uh, you have um, al moeller choosing to defend all the seminaries in his denomination where they're on the ropes

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But he won't defend john mccarthur when when john mccarthur's on the ropes And in fact, you know, well,

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I could go on but You have the people that were sitting on that stage Uh, they haven't been a friend to john mccarthur really and and so it's sad to me that mccarthur wanted to have loyalty to these guys and yet these guys really don't have loyalty to him and um what i've thought i'm just giving you this is john harris's

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Uh view on this whole thing or my suspicions and my um, I don't have a necessarily a um primary source for what i'm about to tell you all of it at least but I do have suspicions based on the way humans behave and uh, and then some observations that i've made about The way that some of these guys have behaved since that q a

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It seems to me that it's very possible at least that some of these guys saw john mccarthur as someone to To be friendly with potentially or in part because of the size of his ministry and because of uh

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There's benefits to that. I mean he has long coattails people john mccarthur. Here's the thing. John mccarthur doesn't need the guild

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John mccarthur if he moved and went to a small church in the middle of nowhere would have a following instantly because he's john mccarthur and I think guys like john mccarthur and r .c.

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Sproul and Uh, and I think bode bacham and um, perhaps to some extent even guys like doug wilson

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Uh, and and i'm you know, I I could probably go on. Um, there there are guys out there who I think

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They don't have the same motivations as some of the others and we have to make a separation here

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Because there are people who are beholden to the guild who are always they're obsessed with their image They're obsessed with the image of their institution.

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They're institutionalists They want to make sure that their mega church or their institution is somehow uh free of the the kinds of attacks that come from the media and they they want to make sure that they're protected and that they still have students coming to their seminary and people coming to their church and The offering cups are filled and and and they're interested in this kind of thing

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I think though there's also guys and I think john mccarthur is probably part of this who aren't interested in that kind of thing

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I really think that there's guys who are in it for for primarily good reasons they're looking at uh

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They want to help people. They want to explain the word of god. They they want to you know, even if they have theological ideas that I would say

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I disagree with they they they have a motive at least that's Wanting to help people wanting to do the right thing and you know what platform's not part of it for them

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Getting a lot of money and accolades. That's not part of it for them But what happens is because people see the genuineness and see and see those helpful tools

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They flock around them and so there ends up being an incentive. There's a benefit to cozying up to someone like that so if someone's um

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You know a really good preacher Then in a you go and you sell yourself to them and say look I can uh,

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I I can make sure that i'll run your social media or i'll i'll do this. I'll do some service for you

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That job only exists because that person is a preacher who's attracting a lot of listeners, right?

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And so there's an incentive to kind of cozy up to that Uh that it becomes you become a brand whether you realize it or not uh

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So in the case of john macarthur, you know, there's the master's college and seminary and you know all the rest uh grace to you and I think that there are people

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In fact, I know there are some people not all Who are in some of these ministries because look they're riding the coattails of john macarthur

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And they're proud of being part of that macarthur brand And I think it is difficult for someone like a john macarthur to see that And the reason is is because he's not really like that so if you're not someone who is

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Motivated and fueled by your desire for greater platform and power and pleasure and all of that When other people are motivated by those things

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It's hard sometimes because you you can project you can project negative things onto people But you can also project positive things you can think well, they're just like me

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They just want the ministry to grow when in reality they want their own pockets to grow They want their own influence to grow and so I think that can that can sometimes be hard to determine if you're not someone who thinks like that or you're not if you're not you don't have a healthy dose of suspicion and Because john macarthur when he was starting out, you know

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There were people around him that ended up recording his sermons giving them to radio shows You know, there's an industry that kind of built up around him

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It wasn't like he had the plan of like we're going to build up an industry It just kind of happened and so that's not with everyone at a megachurch or an institution, they're not all doing that but um but uh, but some people are and so This is where I think a separation much must be made and I don't think the documentary megachurchianity does that well

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They just kind of assume like when john macarthur says that he Doesn't want to fight with his friends that he's saying he wants his watch in his big house because he's somehow

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I guess Relying on them for his income. That's ridiculous John, macarthur doesn't need any of them for his own money money or aggrandizement or anything

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He's his own industry. They need him really he doesn't need them But I think he really viewed them as friends

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I think that's an honest take on this that john macarthur looked at them and said man You're friends.

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I don't want to fight you That was and however Ill -conceived maybe that quote has been and how it's been

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Now looking back at it. It's might even seem foolish to some people. I think that's an honest.

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Um An honest Desire that we can all relate to of I don't want to fight with people that i've had so much partner

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I've partnered in ministry with that. I love and it's Um Sometimes you have to fight unfortunately, you you can't let that get in the way of speaking the truth, but I think

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We can all understand where that might come from Uh, it's not because he he needed you know, his mega church is gonna somehow fall apart without them

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His mega church is fine, whether they're there whether he partners with them or not They've proven themselves not to be great friends of his

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When he's gone through trials, especially during the covid stuff, where were they right? So these are the kinds of things that uh,

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I think I I think that this particular little if you want to call it documentary or pot, whatever it is

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I think churchianity just goes way too far with uh with just really trying to Categorize everyone who is part of a mega church or or has been involved with Big eva quote unquote as as they're all just in this kind of same boat and I I think um

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I think overall there's a good point to be made here that this is a really This is a system or a it's a model that lends itself to a corruption

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But it doesn't mean that every person enmeshed in this model is necessarily corrupt And that's what we

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I think have to be careful. So that's my reaction. That's what I think Of that particular documentary. I hope that was helpful for you.

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And um, I just want to say whoever put it together I mean i'm in large part appreciative of what they're doing