February 8, 2018 Show with Dr. Ashley Null on “A Reformation Manifesto for Contemporary Anglicanism”

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

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Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Now here's our host, Chris Arnton. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

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Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnton, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this eighth day of February 2017.

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The reason why I started chuckling in the midst of my typical opening announcement is

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I was going to say good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, and I was happening to be looking at the words

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Cambridge University, so I almost said good afternoon, Cambridge University, and there's a reason why

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I almost said that. Today we have as a returning guest one of my favorite guests of all time,

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Dr. Ashley Null, and he has his B .D. from Cambridge University.

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We're going to be finding out more about what that exactly means. He also has his M .Div. and S .T

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.M. from Yale University. He's an Episcopal minister, speaker, scholar, author of Thomas Cramner's Doctrine of Repentance.

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He's the co -author of Reformation Anglicanism, a vision for today's global communion.

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He's the canon theologian for the Diocese of Western Kansas, the theological advisor for the

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ACNA Diocese of the Carolinas, and he is the canon theologian to the

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Anglican Diocese of Egypt, having received Fulbright Guggenheim National Endowment for the

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Humanities and German Research Council awards, and he is a German Research Council fellow at Humboldt University in Berlin, Germany, and today he is going to be discussing a

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Reformation manifesto for contemporary Anglicanism, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr.

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Ashley Null. Hey, Chris, it's a pleasure to be with you again. And it is much more of a joy for you, or I should say, it's much more of a joy for me.

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That was the most honest response. I meant to say it is a much greater joy for me than it is for you, okay.

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I meant to say it is a much greater joy for me to interview you, and I apologize for the slip -up.

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I am just tongue -tied today. Before we go any further, there is something very unusual about your degree at Cambridge University, the

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B .D. You're only one of three living human beings to have this

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B .D. degree, and if you could tell our listeners what that is. In the medieval university, the way degrees worked, the

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Master of Arts was the highest degree in the Faculty of Arts, and then you went into what was called a higher degree, either into Divinity or Law or Medicine.

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So it would be a M .A., and then in the Theology faculty, it would Bachelor of Divinity and Doctorate of Divinity.

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You may recall that C .S. Lewis only had a Master's degree, even though he was a full professor at Cambridge, and that's because in his time, there wasn't a degree higher than an

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M .A. in English. After the Second World War, England decided to adopt the

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Anglo -German concept of the Ph .D. in the Arts faculty.

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Ph .D. was begun in 19th century Germany. The Americans picked it up, so the

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English adopted it after the Second World War, but when it came to Divinity, because it had these two ancient medieval degrees, where do you put a

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Ph .D.? Do you put it above a Bachelor's of Divinity or below a

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Bachelor's of Divinity? And do you think that the English are going to put a German American idea above an old ancient

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English degree? No. So in the Divinity faculty in Cambridge, it goes

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B .A., M .A., Ph .D., B .D., E .D.

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So although it sounds like a B .D. is going backwards after a Ph .D.,

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in Cambridge, it's a post -Ph .D., Ph .D. It's the equivalent to a habilitation in Germany, but Oxford has deleted its

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B .D. program, so it's at Cambridge, and it's rarely awarded, but that's what that means in Cambridge.

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Yes, and Dr. Null, as I said, is one of only three living human beings who have this degree,

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I being the second of the three. No, I'm only kidding. You may recognize one of the names.

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Ever heard of a man named Alistair McGrath? Oh, yes. He holds a Ph .D. as well. Oh, wow.

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In fact, I have never had Alistair on this program, but I would love to eventually have him as a guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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Well, tell us about this book. We had you on our program the last time to discuss your book that you cooperated with several other

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Anglican authors, and the title of that book is Reformation Anglicanism, a

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Vision for Today's Global Communion, which is actually the first in a

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Envisioned series on this topic, first volume, and we had you on this program the last time to broadly discuss this, and especially we were involved in the history.

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Today, we're going to be discussing a Reformation manifesto for contemporary Anglicanism, but if you could tell us about the book, especially for the sake of those listeners who did not hear you the last time you were on.

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Anglican history is somewhat complicated because as a state church, as culture shifted through the centuries, that had an impact on the theology that the church was teaching, but here's a handy rule of thumb.

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As any guide, it's a bit simplistic, but it's still useful to get an overall grasp of how to understand the evolution of theology in the

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Church of England. Richard Hooker is famous for clarifying the sources of Anglican theology are

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Scripture, Tradition, and Reason. Actually, Cranmer is the one who comes up with that, but Hooker goes through a much more elaborate and sophisticated explanation, elaboration, and defense of that in his

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Ecclesiastical Laws at the end of the 16th century. And that rule of thumb,

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Scripture, Tradition, and Reason, holds through throughout the history of Anglicanism.

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What happens is that different centuries emphasize different parts of that triad.

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So for the 16th century, Scripture is the most important theological authority, and Reason and Tradition are aides to unlocking the truth of Scripture, but Scripture is paramount.

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Would you ever plant your petunias in the handle of your spade?

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No, I don't think I would plant anything in the handle of a spade. Exactly, and therefore for the 16th century,

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Reason and Tradition were spades to unlock the nutrients in difficult parts of Scripture, i .e.,

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soil that had become clotted. But just because you need a spade to break up the clogs in your garden, you would never think of planting a flower in your spade.

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It doesn't look like that, right? That's right. So that Tradition and Reason don't supplement the truth of Scripture, they simply help you unlock the truth of Scripture.

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That's the 16th century understanding of what I call Reformation Anglicanism.

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In the 17th century, there is a backing away by certain parties from the

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Reformation, and an emphasis on a primitive, patristic church.

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And guess which of the three they emphasize the most? I don't know. Tradition.

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You read the Scriptures through the Fathers, not the other way around.

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So Tradition is a great source that Scripture and Reason help you understand.

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And then finally, in the 18th century, with the

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Enlightenment, which of the three do you think becomes paramount? The Scriptures.

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No. No, the Reason, the human Reason. Reason, exactly. We simply make clear what one could have discerned if you tried hard enough with Reason, and anything in the

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Scriptures that appear to be contrary to Reason are set aside. So Reason is your guide to morality, and Scripture and Tradition help you convince the average person of what

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Reason says, because not everyone is an intellectual, and having, you know, the divine sanction through Revelation and through custom can reinforce it, but there's nothing in Tradition or custom that's authoritative if it contradicts

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Reason. Now, in the 19th century, we have adherence to each of those streams of Anglicanism, and that's when you begin to get a sense of real party within Anglicanism.

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And the Evangelicals look back to the 16th century, to Reformation Anglicanism, to the authority of Scripture.

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The Anglo -Catholics look back to the 17th century, and the

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Broad Church Progressives look back to the 18th century. So you begin to begin to have

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Low Church Evangelical, High Church Anglo -Catholic, and Broad Church Progressive all within the state church vying for supremacy, and those competing groups in the 20th century have led to the current tensions.

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And so an overall view of the book, Reformation Anglicanism, a vision for today's global communion, would be confronting the problems that we have with all the different branches of Anglicanism coming from a

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Reformation Anglican critique of the other branches? Chris, what

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I'm about to say is not a criticism of other people's call, but it is a clarification of what

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I and my fellow authors in Reformation Anglicanism are trying to do.

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It is true that to proclaim the gospel, you often have to protect it too, if you understand what

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I mean. You have to defend it from false interpretations at the same time as you proclaim the true interpretation.

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The difficulties in current Anglicanism have become so severe that a lot of energy is being expended in explaining why certain developments in Anglicanism are not appropriate, are not biblical, are not in keeping with the

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Anglican tradition. And that's certainly appropriate, but if that's all that happens, then you create an atmosphere of knowing what you're against and not knowing what you're for, and not knowing how what you're for critiques your own life to shape it.

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Into a lifelong discipleship of crucifying the old man and letting the

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Spirit vivify the new man in you. Yeah, that is a... A lot of Reformation Anglicanism is a positive assertion of the pastoral wisdom from the

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Bible, reclaimed by the Reformers, and then those principles applied to today's world.

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Amen. And what you were saying earlier, and it's not exclusively the fault or the flaw, a major flaw within much of fundamentalism or fundamentalist

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Christianity, but there seems to be a very dominant trait within fundamentalism that would be very quick to expose the errors of everyone else other than themselves, but they might not be very adequate to defend exactly what it is they're supposed to believe themselves, if you follow what

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I'm saying. Right, and again, we are called... You cannot propagate truth without refuting error.

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Those go together. But we can get so caught up in refuting error, we forget that the

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Spirit wants us to propagate the truth, and propagating the truth will critique us, that we need to change and grow.

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Doctrinal purity does not necessarily translate into personal purity.

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It's so much easier arguing about doctrine than it is denying yourself.

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Amen. I want to repeat our email address for those of you who would like to join us on the air with a question of your own for Dr.

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Ashley Null. That is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

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Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

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USA, and please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Let's say you are a member of an

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Episcopal or Anglican church. You want to say something critical about it, but you don't want to draw attention to your own identity.

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I can understand that you would want to remain anonymous or any other reason that involves a personal and private matter, but other than that, please give us at least your first name, city and state, and country of residence.

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We have a listener in Peekskill, New York named Melinda. This is a good question, I think, that will open up the discussion on your manifesto that you intend to discuss today.

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Melinda in Peekskill, New York says, My question for Dr. Null is, in what specific ways do you think the

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Anglican church today is in conflict with its Reformation roots?

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That's an excellent question. Let me answer that, but there is a fundamental difference between Reformation Anglicanism and a lot of Protestantism that I think it would be helpful to clarify as well.

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So which would you like me to first answer Melinda's question, or to do that clarification about the difference between Reformation Anglicanism and much of Protestantism?

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Do the latter. Okay. It's a crucial question.

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Is the Bible the record of a saving message, or is it a blueprint for everything in society?

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In other words, is there one authentic human culture that's contained within Scripture, and every human culture around the globe needs to be shaped so as to fit a biblical blueprint?

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Or is the message of salvation universal, but how that is proclaimed in a given place is determined by the cultural specifics of that time and people?

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A classic example where this tension was made known in the

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English Reformation is the debate between Thomas Cranmer and John Knox about kneeling at communion.

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Cranmer, in his second prayer book, has retained kneeling at communion.

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Knox vehemently objects because he says that if it's not mandated in Scripture to kneel, it's not of faith, and if it's not of faith, it's a sin.

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There must be a distinct warrant in Scripture to do it, i .e.,

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the regulative principle. Cranmer replies, if that's so, then we all, if we can only, if we must follow a biblical practice and everything, that means we need to lie down in the chancel to receive communion, because that's how they received communion in the days of Jesus, right?

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At the Last Supper, everybody was lying on the chancel. Right, if you want to be literal about having an example for everything that you're doing, yeah,

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I understand what you're saying. Now, some people think that Cranmer was just making a witty, professorial joke, taking the argument to the point of being absurd, but they're actually missing his point, which is how one eats is not a moral issue.

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The Native Americans who eat with their fingers around the campfire, is that immoral, rather than using a knife and fork?

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Obviously not immoral, no. No, no, it's a matter of custom, and what you then have to do is to figure out how to talk about a fellowship meal in an explicit, in a cultural context that fits that generation.

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I personally think Cranmer would have, as some people say, in his third prayer book, gone to a seated communion, because how do we eat at a meal in our culture?

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You sit down at table. But he wasn't willing to adopt what he would have thought was the right practice for the wrong principle.

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So for Cranmer, there is a universal message that then the

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Church has to figure out how to effectively proclaim in the light of its culture.

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Now, in the last hundred years, that's what our missionaries have figured out. That to be effective, you have to figure out how to proclaim the

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Gospel within the cultural and societal norms and understanding of the people that you're, of the people groups you're dealing with, particularly the whip of Bible missionaries.

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But Cranmer is saying that way back in the 16th century, that what you need to do is, the

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Bible is absolutely authoritative for faith and morals, but how you proclaim that will differ over time and place to be effective in communication.

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Remember, Cranmer is a good humanist, and it's about rhetoric, and rhetoric is about effectively communicating a message to its audience.

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And therefore, Reformation Anglicanism in the book is not an antiquarian project to try to recreate the 16th century

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Church. It's to try to do what the 16th century Church did, which was to reflect on certain key aspects of the salvation message, and particularly salvation by grace alone through faith alone, and proclaim that effectively to the current generation of their day, and therefore in the 21st century, to take these biblical principles recovered by the

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Reformation and effectively proclaim them around the globe for the 21st century.

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One thing I want you to clarify very briefly, you use the term humanist, and I know that some of our listeners might be confusing that with a modern usage of that term, which is not flattering at all for a

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Bible -believing Christian. Yes, I spend too much time in the 16th century, you're absolutely right.

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Humanism isn't an atheistic promotion of human beings being at the center of the universe in the 16th century.

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Humanism is a movement that goes back to the authentic sources for something.

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So if you're trying to figure out how to do speech, you look back to the great rhetoricians of the

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Greco -Roman period. In theology, you look past everybody who's written about Scripture to Scripture itself, that it's the most authoritative.

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Humanism is a recovery of the authority of the sources of a subject.

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Have you ever been a Boy Scout? Yes, I was. As a

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Boy Scout, if there's a beautiful running stream beside you on a mountain, and the

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Boy Scouts camp halfway down the mountain, do you get the water below the Boy Scout camp or above the

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Boy Scout camp? You'd get it above, because you wouldn't want the sewage that would be below.

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Exactly. And therefore, the humanist of the 16th century used a phrase of odd fonties, to the sources, because the closer you got to the source of water, the purer the water would be.

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So a 16th century humanist is looking back past the

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Middle Ages and scholastic theology, and all of its logical games, to the original documents.

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And theology is the Greek Bible and the

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Hebrew Old Testament, looking past the Latin Vulgate, and in terms of rhetoric, it's looking to the great authors of the ancient classical period.

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And now, if you want to address specifically Melinda and Peekskill's question.

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Melinda? Is that right, or Melinda? Melinda? Melinda with an M as in Mary. Right. Well, Melinda, I'm going to give you a roundabout answer, but hopefully by the time

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I finish, it'll be clarifying for you. What the

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Reformers did, the Anglican Reformers, by having this distinction between the authority of the

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Gospel message and its implementation, its proclamation, they argued that faith and morals, as revealed in Scripture, are unchanging.

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But church structures, even church ceremonies, need to evolve to make sure that it's still, the church is still effectively proclaiming its message generation after generation.

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So it was a no -brainer for Cramner, who's deeply steeped in patristic learning, that you get rid of the

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Latin mass, not only because of doctrinal issues, but because it's in Latin, and that's not an effective way to proclaim the

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Gospel in a liturgical service to people who only speak English. That seems so obvious to us today, but that was a radical application of that principle.

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And as much as I love Cramner's 16th century language, he would be the first to say that you need to make sure that in the 21st century that you have a liturgical service that is useful for today's participants.

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Ironically, what I'm discovering with Millennials is the archaic and otherworldliness of Cramner's 16th century language enables them to have an experience of the transcendent that a lot of their big -box, megachurch worship, they don't find.

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So ironically, what I would have normally said 10 years ago, we really, that we need to put aside

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Cramner's liturgical language for a modern language, I'm saying we'll actually need to have both, because some folks find that Elizabethan language helpful for worship.

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But the point is that you have principles that unchange, but then how you proclaim them change over time, and the things that you change that are not required by Scripture, like your worship services, those are called adiaphora, and in fact, in 16th century

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Anglicanism, you have episcopacy not because God founded episcopacy as the

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Roman Catholics think, nor the presbytery system, which many

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Reformed people think are mandated by Scripture, but that you could have either, depending on what made sense for the effect of proclamation of the

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Gospel, so England chose bishops, but it wasn't the only way to organize a church, so that the 16th century

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English Church didn't disenfranchise the Reformed churches on the continent, but saw themselves as all part of a general

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Reformed theological tradition that had implemented the principles in ways that were suited to the customs and culture of each country.

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Now, what happened in the 21st century in America is this notion that you can adapt the practices of the church to effectively missionize in a culture has caused, how can

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I say, sexual self -expression as defined by the individual rather than any other source like Scripture, becomes the number one way to fulfillment in popular culture.

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With the tradition of the church, it's up against that. What do you do?

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In the Episcopal Church, they had decided that the

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Spirit is speaking through culture to implement a higher principle of love from Scripture, and that therefore the church must, in order to proclaim its message of love, must accept and incorporate this cultural practice.

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How do you feel about that, Chris? Well, I think that anytime somebody tries to appease the majority of humans who are reprobates and they forego the clear teachings of Scripture and they purt obeying

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God in a much lower rung of importance than appeasing men, in fact if they totally abandon any interest in obeying

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God, then you have a serious, serious problem. Well, here's the thing.

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Kramner believed in cultural accommodation.

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You don't speak Latin, you speak English, even though that's been the tradition of the church for a thousand years, because the people don't speak

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Latin, you know. But many in the Episcopal Church have misunderstood cultural accommodation for cultural capitulation, that the culture determines your truth and not the

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Scriptures. Kramner wisely put in the

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Articles of Religion that you cannot interpret one place of Scripture so as to contradict another.

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You can't say because God is love, then the Scriptural ways of defining what is and isn't loving, you can't say the first one trumps the second.

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You have to be faithful to both and figure out what the church looks like when all of Scripture is authoritative, not just your favorite parts.

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So the biggest difficulty with the Episcopal Church today is that they have decided that the

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Spirit, to quote the convention, that the Spirit is doing a new thing in culture, and they're letting culture interpret

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Scripture for them rather than letting Scripture interpret and correct culture.

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We are going to our first station break right now, and by the way, Melinda in Peekskill, New York, you have won a free copy of the book that we are addressing today,

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Reformation Anglicanism, co -authored by our guest Dr. Ashley Null. If you would please give us your full mailing address in Peekskill, New York, so that our friends at CVBBS, Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, can ship a copy of that book out to you.

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Compliments of Crossway, who published that book, and also compliments of our friends at CVBBS, who are sending it to you at no shipping charge to either you or to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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And we thank you for your participation in today's program. Oh, by the way, since you're a first -time questioner, you are also receiving a free

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New American Standard Bible, compliments of the publishers of the NASB, so please make sure you get us your full mailing address.

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We are going, as I said, to our first station break right now. If anybody else would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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chrisarnson at gmail .com. Some of you have submitted questions without providing your city and state or country of residence.

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Please always provide us your city and state or country of residence when you write your questions, unless you are remaining anonymous, because the question is a personal and private one.

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Dr. Ashley Null. And Dr. Ashley Null is on our program today, on our program today,

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I think I added an extra syllable in that sentence, and we are talking not only about the book that he has written,

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Reformation Anglicanism, a vision for today's global communion, which he co -authored with other

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Anglicans, but we are also specifically talking about a Reformation manifesto to contemporary or for contemporary

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Anglicanism. If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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We might as well take one more listener before we get to the manifesto itself that you'd like to address.

42:03

We have Brandon in Dayton, Ohio, who says, how can non -Anglicans learn from Reformation Anglicanism and include those elements in its liturgy and culture?

42:22

Well, Brandon, it looks like you need to talk. Chris is inviting me back for a 10 -hour session.

42:31

Well, I have no problem inviting you back, but our show is only two hours long every time. And Brandon, if you live in Dayton, Ohio, you should go by Springboro and visit my seven great -grandfather's two -story walnut block home, which he built as the first European in the

42:53

Dayton River Valley in 1798. It's an historical site managed by the city of Springboro and the local historical society there.

43:04

And, by the way, Brandon, you have not only won a free copy of Reformation Anglicanism, since you submitted a question today, but you're also, since you're a first -time questioner, receiving a new

43:17

New American Standard Bible. We need your mailing address in Ohio, so please give us the full mailing address and we'll have

43:24

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service get that out to you as soon as possible. But is that as far as you wanted to go, answering

43:30

Brandon's question? No, that wouldn't be very much of an answer, would it?

43:36

That wouldn't be great knowledge, but that wasn't my intention. But it's a very interesting log home built by Christian Knoll back in 1798.

43:52

It was actually used on the Underground Railroad, and I'm very grateful to the city of Springboro for making sure that it continues in existence today.

44:03

Anyway, it's about 20 minutes from Dayton, because he literally picked the most beautiful spot in the entire

44:10

Dayton River Valley for his log home, since he was the only person, European, he was the first person to homestead under the 1785

44:21

Northwest Territory Act in Dayton. Anyway, to be honest,

44:28

Brandon, there is so many things that one could talk about, but I would like to concentrate on two of them.

44:39

One is, we've already talked about the regulative principle.

44:46

I think that one can interpret that too strictly for matters of worship, and create difficulties in effectively communicating the

45:01

Gospel. Many people do not realize that in the 16th century, the idea of congregational responses was considered somehow against the

45:12

Bible, because people came to church to listen to God speak, and the minister spoke for God.

45:21

Therefore, things like the litany, or in the

45:26

Anglican tradition, where you have one -line prayers said by the minister and then by the congregation, alternating back and forth, even though those were quotations from the

45:39

Psalms that they were saying, that was considered unbiblical, and it's on the basis of that that John Knox breaks away from the others in the

45:54

Church of England, and goes to Geneva to form it more pure worship.

46:02

I think that that kind of narrow understanding can be an impediment to mission today.

46:09

But a much bigger issue is the nature of God.

46:18

Cranmer is an early Reformed theologian, so he does believe in predestination.

46:28

He doesn't want it taught, because he fears it will confuse people in terms of letting them be anxious about whether they're saved or not.

46:39

He believes in preaching the benefits of predestination, and encouraging people to repent and experience

46:49

God's blessing, though he knows that he'll only be able to repent.

46:58

He wants the Church to proclaim a

47:05

God of love. Within a couple of generations, the

47:10

Church begins to proclaim the sovereignty of God as the defining characteristic of God, rather than love.

47:22

And then repentance becomes a matter of duty and obligation.

47:29

And not a matter of love. And with it, Cranmer's whole concept of divine allurement is lost.

47:39

I don't believe that one has to give up on a predestination to proclaim the doctrine of divine allurement, which is central to Cranmer's theology and to his liturgy.

47:55

And divine allurement basically says this, the medieval Church used institutional authority and fear of punishment in this life and the next to try to get people to change.

48:12

But in fact, fear, shame, guilt, and duty in the long term do not enable you to stop sinning.

48:25

There's only one thing that enables you to stop sinning, according to Cranmer.

48:31

And guess what that is, Chris? Love. Loving God more than sin.

48:37

Right. Now obviously, God saving you from hell is a grounds for gratitude and love.

48:47

So it's not as if the English Reformers want to downplay the reality of sin and judgment.

48:55

But what they want to emphasize is that what Christ did freely to deliver you from such things, and that He wants

49:05

His love to allure you, to persuade you.

49:12

This is so incredibly pastorally important, I think, for the 21st century.

49:21

We have at least a couple of generations now where society has not encouraged parents to make children first.

49:38

It used to be that parents made sacrifices for their children so their children would have a better life, and their children could grow up and make sacrifices so that their children would have a better life.

49:53

But after the 60s, parents began to be encouraged to think about that adulthood was the point where they got at long last to be in charge, to put themselves first, and to seek their own satisfaction, and that children had to come to grips with how important it was for Mommy and Daddy to be happy, even if that happiness came at the expense of the children, like breaking up a marriage.

50:28

I realize that there's a lot of heartache around that, and I'm sure enough blame to go around.

50:37

But for many folks, it's almost as if it's an automatic right of a parent to say, whatever makes me happy, that is my first consideration.

50:49

And when that's become the cultural norm, we have young people who are terribly insecure because they don't feel loved.

51:01

They don't have a sense of self -worth that doesn't go away. And when the

51:06

Church proclaims their sin, they get frightened and angry because they fear that the

51:19

Church is right, that they are screwed up, that they are blowing it, that they are lost.

51:30

And rather than being given hope, they feel exposed and they run.

51:36

They feel condemned by the Church, rather than embraced.

51:44

And Klamner summarized his understanding of divine abhorment in his comfortable words, which are literally at the center of his 1552 service for Holy Communion.

52:01

And he quotes four scripture verses in order. Number one, come unto me all ye that travail and are heavy laden, and I will refresh you.

52:13

Chris, does he mention judgment in there? No. Sin? Nope.

52:20

Hell? Nope. Where does he begin? An invitation.

52:26

He begins at human need, right? Yeah. He invites them to come and get their needs met.

52:36

He's acknowledging their brokenness and saying, let me help you with your brokenness.

52:45

The next one is, for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that all that believe in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

52:55

Does he use the S word for sin? Nope. Does he condemn?

53:00

No, he does mention condemnation, but he is trying to convey that there is a a cure or a preventative established thing that he has, that God has sent his

53:15

Son to do. If the first one's about human longing, the next one's about divine longing, right?

53:24

Uh -huh. And what's the divine longing? That's safe.

53:31

Yeah. Human beings have a longing to be rescued. God longs to rescue.

53:41

Those two incredibly important principles are the foundation for all his evangelism.

53:49

And by the way, we have to go to our midway break right now, so you could continue your thought there, if you'd like, when we return.

53:55

This is our longer break than normal, because Grace Life Radio requires a long break between our two 54 -minute segments.

54:03

Please be patient with us and take this time to write in your questions right now to chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com.

54:10

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54:15

And if you live outside the USA, give us your country of residence, but you can remain anonymous. If the question is about a personal and private matter, don't go away.

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chrisarnson at gmail .com if you have a question on the Anglican or Episcopal church, both ancient and modern, and we are going to pick up where you left off there,

01:08:48

Dr. Null, when you were speaking about, I believe, John 316, if you wanted to elaborate a little bit more on what you were saying.

01:08:58

I was saying that we have to understand that the current generations that we're proclaiming the gospel to do not have the same self -confidence of previous generations, and when they hear the church talking about their sin, what they hear is condemnation, and they secretly fear that what the church is saying is true, and so they just run.

01:09:33

They often say the church is simply trying to make me feel guilty so they can take away the guilt, because they don't have anything in their experience that tells them that there is a right or wrong.

01:09:50

It's just simply what works for them, but they know that what they're doing doesn't work for them, so they're confused and uncertain, and the church has to figure out a way to proclaim the gospel in a way that these people can hear, and what's interesting is that Cranmer was reacting to a medieval culture of shame and guilt -driven conversion, which wasn't successful, and so he, with the other reformers, pioneered a message of God's alluring love, that God's love draws people into conversion, and the four verses that he uses to convey this are found in the middle of his service of Holy Communion.

01:10:39

They're called the Comfortable Words. They begin by saying, Hear the comfortable words of our

01:10:44

Lord Jesus Christ to Seth. Come unto me, all ye that travail and are heavy laden, and I will refresh you.

01:10:52

He points out the human longing to be rescued from the ill and easiness that people, apart from Christ, experience.

01:11:06

The second Comfortable Word, For God so loved the world that all that believe on him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

01:11:16

Not only do we have human longing to be rescued, we have divine longing to rescue.

01:11:23

The third Comfortable Word is 1 Timothy 1 .15. This is a true saying, where they've all meant to be received, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners.

01:11:39

Okay, now we've got the yes word, right? Now we're circling back.

01:11:47

It's God, human, divine. Now we're back to the human side of salvation, and the trouble, the reason why people are at ill at ease, the answer to their problem, what they didn't realize, was they've been cut off from God.

01:12:05

And what separated them from God? Their sins. And what is the answer to the separation?

01:12:12

Is there a ladder they need to climb? What's really interesting is how puritanical the world is becoming about certain moral values, and not others, and this constant emphasis on proving that you're a good person by doing good deeds.

01:12:34

And if you do bad deeds, you're a bad person, and there's no mechanism for redemption.

01:12:41

If you've been a bad person 30 years ago, the only appropriate thing is to completely cut you out and throw you away.

01:12:52

This is the current common morality.

01:12:58

And the whole point of the third thing is that people sin, the sin is a burden on them, cutting themselves off from God, cutting them off from other people, and cutting them off from their true selves.

01:13:13

But that's what Jesus came into the world for, to rescue them from their sin, both from its guilt and from its power.

01:13:28

Because is it not true not only are you guilty when you transgress the law, but the more you transgress it, the more it becomes a power operating within you that is more difficult to say no to.

01:13:46

The secular world can only call it addiction, but the Church has always called it the power of sin.

01:13:54

And Jesus comes to remove not only the guilt, but to break the power so that you really can begin to change.

01:14:04

And as St. Vincent Millay said it best, it's not one thing after another, it's the same bleak thing over and over again.

01:14:14

And without Christ rescuing you, that is true. And if we now know that salvation from a human point of view is

01:14:25

Jesus coming to deliver us from our sins because He longs to rescue us, and He longs to meet that deep -seated desire on our part to be rescued, we now have the fourth comfortable word, salvation, from God's point of view, 1

01:14:45

John 2, 1 and 2. If any man sin, we have to advocate with the

01:14:51

Father, Jesus Christ the righteous, and He is the propitiation for our sins.

01:14:58

Well first of all, is Jesus our judge? No, not yet.

01:15:03

He comes as our advocate, as our defense lawyer. He doesn't come to condemn,

01:15:09

He comes to redeem. But what cost is it to Him that He's able to act as our

01:15:16

Redeemer? He must die in our place. That's what makes it possible for God to rescue.

01:15:25

The cost of divine longing to meet human longing is that the divine becomes human, the immortal becomes mortal, and dies so that the mortal might become immortal.

01:15:44

And once we understand the depth of God's love, that He then comes and rescues us, then how can we not have in our hearts start up a loving gratitude to love and serve

01:15:59

Him? Cram the whole church on the notion that once God's immense love is shown to us, that we will then grow and change.

01:16:13

And we now have, oh by the way, Brandon, thank you very much for that question.

01:16:19

Please make sure that you get us your mailing address so that you will receive the free copy of Reformation Anglicanism and also the free copy of the

01:16:28

New American Standard Bible, since you are a first -time questioner on the program.

01:16:35

Let's see here, we have Matthew in Fredericksburg, Virginia.

01:16:42

Matthew says, I have a question for Dr. Noll. What is the relationship between Luther's ideas and those of Thomas Cramner?

01:16:49

Where do they differ? Okay, before I answer that question, may

01:16:55

I just point out that what I've been talking about, divine allurement, if that notion of the presentation of the

01:17:02

Gospel is interesting to you, in the book on Reformation Anglicanism, we have a chapter on Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, and Sola Grazia, and Sola Dei Gloria, and for the

01:17:16

Sola Grazia chapter, we have an extended discussion of the Comfortable Words and Divine Allurement.

01:17:25

Now... You want me to reread

01:17:31

Matthew's question? No, you always encourage me to be brief, and I never do so, so I was just trying to think how

01:17:39

I could shorten the answer for Matthew. Let me begin by saying that Luther's question is not

01:17:51

Cramner's question. Luther's question is, how do

01:17:57

I find a gracious God? Cramner's question is, how do we get people to follow

01:18:09

God? You remember that in England, there's been a civil war that's disturbed the country, and the whole

01:18:20

Tudor regime is dedicated to creating political stability, and the

01:18:28

Tudors recognize that political stability begins with people doing their duty.

01:18:38

That the civil wars are broke out because inferiors didn't obey their superiors, and superiors didn't look after inferiors, and therefore, if the

01:18:52

Tudors were going to have a lasting standing throne, then they wanted the

01:18:58

Church to push morality. And Cramner, therefore, is looking as a

01:19:08

Tudor humanist, i .e., part of this renewal movement of going back to the sources, looking for biblical authority and biblical morality, how to get people to practice

01:19:21

New Testament religion. He's confronted with, basically, how do

01:19:27

I get people to love God more than sin? That's what he's wrestling with.

01:19:34

Whereas Luther is, I am a sinner, how do I find a gracious God? Yeah, especially since he was a

01:19:40

Roman Catholic Augustinian monk who was torturing himself, literally, trying to appease

01:19:48

God for his sins, and he was driving himself insane because he had no cure for this.

01:19:56

He had what is called a scrupulous conscience, that he was very aware of the sinful emotions in his heart and in his life, and no matter the traditional aids to help him did not seem to be sufficient.

01:20:15

And he was terrified that as a priest who handled

01:20:21

God's body and blood on the altar, that he was unholy to come into contact with such holiness.

01:20:33

And he was looking for a way to understand his relationship with God that he could actually love

01:20:42

God rather than be terrified by Him. Cramner is trying to figure out how people can love

01:20:50

God more than sin, and to cram this great horror in midlife, in his early 40s, which in the 16th century is a senior adult, he realizes the answer to Luther's question is the answer to his question too.

01:21:11

Justification by faith for Luther gave him a sense that he didn't have to be pure enough for God, that God saw him through the blood of Jesus, and that God could credit him with the righteousness today that he would only fully be in the age to come.

01:21:46

Chris, have you ever made homemade ice cream? Never. Have you ever cooked at all?

01:21:52

Yes, not much, but usually when it's me and the stove, it's reheating something.

01:22:00

Okay. My late wife was a master. You have to put milk, maybe if you want fresh vanilla, eggs, you put some fruit, peaches in it, lots of ice, and do you think it looks very good looking at the egg yolks in the ice cream mix?

01:22:27

Do I think it looks good? Yeah. Probably not, I don't know.

01:22:33

No, it doesn't feel good. Does that bother you?

01:22:39

Does it bother me that it doesn't look good in the initial stages? Yeah. No, it doesn't.

01:22:44

Why not? Because I know it's going to be the final product, or at least I'm expecting something. Oh, really?

01:22:52

Luther argues that Paul argues that God does the same with us, that in justification, we are incorporated into God's family forever, even though we are a work in progress, that we are credited with Christ's righteousness, although our cynical self -centeredness is not fully eradicated and can burst out in unhelpful ways and need to be dealt with.

01:23:25

But whereas in the medieval church, the minute you sinned, you lost your relationship with God.

01:23:32

Luther said that God held on to you and would bring you assuredly to heaven, which of course, if you were a medieval

01:23:40

Catholic, you never knew if you'd be good enough for heaven, that you could be assured of salvation, because God was committed to completing the good work

01:23:51

He had begun in you, Philippians 1 .6. And that even if you were a mixed bag now,

01:23:58

His love working in your life over time would make sure that in the age to come, you would not only be credited with Christ's perfect righteousness, you would actually exhibit

01:24:11

Christ's perfect righteousness as God's gift to you. Amen.

01:24:20

Now, Crander discovers that this way of thinking is what enables people to begin to love

01:24:30

God and not fear Him, and that love can begin to...

01:24:36

And once you know you're saved, you can begin to concentrate on serving

01:24:42

God and others, and not constantly worrying about your own fate, and be freed up not only to pursue godliness, but to pursue godly service.

01:24:55

And therefore, he adopts justification by faith, and then seeks to proclaim it to the

01:25:05

English people. There are similarities in how he and Luther both used liturgy to proclaim the gospel message, and there are similarities how both were prepared to use the state to help further and proclaim that message.

01:25:30

There are a little bit of difference between how the state worked in Lutheranism versus England, but there's still a matter of involving the state.

01:25:41

And what I like to say, Crander was

01:25:47

Lutheran on soteriology, Reformed in his sacramental theology, and English in his ecclesiology.

01:26:00

The basic Lutheran anthropology, based on the length and theological commonplace is 1521.

01:26:10

What the heart loves, the will chooses, and the mind justifies.

01:26:16

And Crander takes that over into Anglicanism, and it's the basis of his divine aborment and soteriology.

01:26:25

So Reformation to Anglicanism, soteriologically wise, is heavily influenced by Lutheranism.

01:26:33

When they talk about covenant in Crander, it's the covenant of the length and the gospel of promise.

01:26:40

It's not the kind of covenant with obligations that you get in Swiss theology.

01:26:47

So soteriology, he's deeply Lutheran, but he and Luther disagree over the nature of the real presence.

01:26:55

Crander believed in a spiritual but powerfully effective, supernaturally effective understanding of the sacrament.

01:27:03

Luther believed in powerfully, supernaturally effective sacrament, but insisted on Christ's bodily presence in there as well.

01:27:11

So that is another divide. Why I say that he's

01:27:17

Reformed on the sacramental theology, but Lutheran on soteriology.

01:27:23

Yes, and he disagreed with Luther, did he not, on baptismal regeneration. Did not

01:27:29

Crander disagree with baptismal regeneration, whereas Luther defended that?

01:27:36

Well, it's all very difficult because, of course, Crander believes in baptismal regeneration.

01:27:45

I mean, he wrote a prayer book for that. But there are footnotes that are not printed in the service.

01:27:52

One, baptismal regeneration is only for the elect. Two, that the baptismal regeneration is not necessarily tied to the event of baptism.

01:28:11

The fact that you are baptized and you're elect, the power of that baptism may come into your life at a different moment than the actual sacramental moment.

01:28:27

Luther talks about the importance of baptismal regeneration, but Luther also talks about election, but he doesn't actually talk about how those two work together.

01:28:37

Right, but the 39 articles, though, which Thomas Crander was responsible for, they do not include baptismal regeneration in those articles, to my knowledge, to my memory.

01:28:49

Well, again, it depends on how you define it. Well, the way Crander defines it, he defines it in a typical

01:28:55

Reformed way. I mean, a Catholic won't acknowledge what

01:29:01

Crander calls baptismal generation, baptismal generation. He redefines it. And again, a typical understanding of baptismal regeneration is that every child who is baptized at that moment is infused with the

01:29:19

Holy Spirit. That's rejected by the

01:29:25

Reformed, because first of all, only the elect are regenerate in baptism, and Crander also believes only the elect are regenerate, and even then, a blinker is very big on making clear that the moment of baptism is not necessarily the moment the

01:29:48

Holy Spirit comes into the life of the child. They're trying to wrestle with how do you—well, this comes to a deeper issue that we haven't talked about, which is that although later historians have tried to separate the 16th century conversion from 18th century conversion, that the 16th century conversion was more an intellectual illumination, whereas the 18th century is actually more of an experience.

01:30:21

That clearly, for the English Reformation, is not tenable, that it is very much like a experience for the 16th century

01:30:30

Reformers. So how do you correlate a born -again experience of hearing the gospel as an older person with your baptism right before?

01:30:46

And Crander isn't very clear how he does that, and he seems to be in the tradition of Bollinger, where, again, although the elect are regenerated in baptism, if you mean the indwelling of the

01:31:06

Holy Spirit, that may happen at a later time when one has the experience of justification by faith, but then what's happening is

01:31:14

God is simply fulfilling the ordinance of the Church for His elect at the time that God in His sovereignty decides, all of which would be completely unacceptable to a

01:31:27

Catholic for, quote, baptismal regeneration. Right. We have to go to our final break right now, and when we return we're going to really focus on the

01:31:35

Manifesto, the Reformation Manifesto for Contemporary Anglicanism, and this is your final opportunity to ask a question, at least during today's interview.

01:31:44

If you'd like to join us, send us an email as quickly as you can to chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:31:50

chrisarnson at gmail .com. We still have a few of you waiting to have your questions asked and answered, and we'll try to get to as many of you as time will allow.

01:31:57

Don't go away. We'll be right back after this brief break, so don't go away.

01:32:06

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01:32:11

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01:32:22

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01:34:19

This is Chris Arns, and if you just tuned us in for the last 90 minutes and the next 25 minutes to come, our guest has been and will continue to be

01:34:27

Dr. Ashley Null. We have been discussing his book, Reformation Anglicanism, and specifically now we are going to get into the portion of the program where he is going to present a

01:34:38

Reformation Manifesto for Contemporary Anglicanism.

01:34:44

And if you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com. C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

01:34:52

Please give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside the USA. And I don't know if I mentioned to Matthew in Fredericksburg, Virginia, but you have also won not only a free copy of Reformation Anglicanism, but you have also won a new

01:35:09

New American Standard Bible since you are a first -time questioner also. So far all of our listeners who have submitted questions are first -time questioners, and so please make sure you give us your full mailing address so we can have cvbbs .com

01:35:24

ship out to you not only the free copy of Reformation Anglicanism, but also the free copy of the

01:35:30

New American Standard Bible. Now if you could, Dr. Null, this manifesto that you wanted to present today, a

01:35:38

Reformation Manifesto for Contemporary Anglicanism. Yes, there are divergent streams of Anglicanism claiming to be the one authentic version.

01:36:00

There are strains in the Communion. We have provinces using

01:36:08

Ecclesiastical language of Impaired Communion, which basically means that we don't recognize you as a godly church.

01:36:23

So for instance, the province of Southeast Asia just this month declared that they were in Impaired Communion with the

01:36:33

Scottish Episcopal Church, the Anglican province in Scotland, because the

01:36:38

Scottish Episcopal Church has moved their canons and prayer book so as to be able to bless same -sex marriages.

01:36:51

In the midst of all of this tension and confusion, one way forward that is being proposed is that we simply look to structural unity.

01:37:02

The provinces, again, it's a misuse of the

01:37:08

Cultural Accommodation Theory, and basically saying that we'll let the provinces in their part of the world address the sexual issues that best fit to their culture, but we'll all stay united through the structures of the church.

01:37:28

So the Anglican Church of North America is not recognized by the

01:37:36

Archbishop of Canterbury because the structure for official Anglican Communionism in the

01:37:43

United States is the Episcopal Church. And what the

01:37:48

Reformation Manifesto is suggesting is that we need to recover not merely a structural unity, but a theological unity, and a theological unity that will propel the mission of the church.

01:38:10

When I look at American TV, when

01:38:16

I sit in an airport, when

01:38:24

I see the masses of humanity who do not know the

01:38:33

Lord Jesus Christ, it just strikes me that the message of salvation needs to be proclaimed more clearly and more effectively throughout the world.

01:38:54

There are more of God's children yet to break forth in society, and the church needs to recover its priority of mission.

01:39:08

And therefore, the Reformation Anglican Manifesto is looking to the principles, the biblical principles of the 16th century, to help

01:39:19

Anglicans fulfill their duty to be a missional church that brings people into relationship to God, through Jesus Christ, and through Jesus Christ to one another, and to their true selves.

01:39:36

And what I try to do, along with John Yates, who is the co -author of this manifesto, which is the last chapter in Reformation Anglicanism, is to look at the marks of what

01:39:48

Reformation Anglicanism is, and to help specifically for Anglicans to understand these terms in their 16th century sense, rather than how the 17th or the 18th century may have interpreted them.

01:40:06

So, the marks of Reformation Anglicanism, first of all, it's apostolic.

01:40:13

Chris, what do you think of when you hear the word apostolic? Well, I know that if something is apostolic, it can be traced to the apostles, and therefore, as a

01:40:22

Bible -believing Protestant, I believe that means they are the teachings that are found in the scriptures. Exactly.

01:40:30

Now, in Anglicanism, because of the 17th century and the 19th century, many people think that a defining doctrine of Anglicanism is apostolic succession, that as long as a bishop has had the right lamp hands laid on him, an unbroken chain back to the apostles, that they're in good standing with God.

01:40:56

But that's not a Reformation understanding. They believed in apostolic succession, but for them, that was the succession of apostolic teaching.

01:41:07

And guess where they found apostolic teaching? In the

01:41:12

Church Fathers? No, in Scripture alone. I'm sorry, I was thinking that you were talking about those who broke away from the

01:41:20

Reformation tradition. Of course, in the Scripture alone. Yeah, that's what—and therefore, for Reformation Anglicanism, the first thing to understand that Anglicanism is apostolic, which means sola scriptura.

01:41:35

Amen. It doesn't mean that the Fathers and reason don't help us understand Scripture, but Scripture is on a level of authority above and beyond anything else.

01:41:46

It is the ultimate revelation from God, and therefore, nothing can contradict it.

01:41:53

That's what Reformation Anglicanism means by apostolic, the authority of the

01:41:59

Scriptures to define for us. But Reformation Anglicanism is often

01:42:05

Catholic. But now again, what does Catholic mean? Does Catholic mean that you hold to the medieval understanding of the

01:42:14

Roman Catholic Church? For many folks, that's what Catholic means, but not for the 16th century.

01:42:22

For them, they recognized that there were people running around in the

01:42:30

Patristic Church with the false understanding of the

01:42:36

Scriptures. Gnostics, who would twist things out of context, and in fact, write their own

01:42:44

Scriptures and claim that they were apostolic as well. And therefore, the creeds called the

01:42:52

Catholic creeds were devised not to supplement

01:42:58

Scripture, but simply to be drawn from it, and its literal meaning to be a rule to make sure that anyone interpreting the

01:43:10

Scripture didn't twist it out of context. And of course, Catholic in both

01:43:17

Latin and Greek simply means universal. And so, you know,

01:43:22

Anglicanism bleeds in the Apostles and Mycenaean creeds, because they're the universal understanding of the message of salvation, which

01:43:35

Scripture teaches. They don't get their authority because the Church ruled them, they get their authority because they're authentic, summary statements of the revelation of God found in Scripture.

01:43:54

Thirdly, Reformation Anglicanism is, guess what? It's reformational!

01:44:01

So, once you take that the early

01:44:07

Church principle that Scripture is the fundamental revelation of doctrine, then that challenges many of the medieval assumptions about the nature of salvation.

01:44:20

Right -standing with God is not something that you achieve by your works, even if those are assisted by God.

01:44:29

Right -standing is a gift that they receive by trusting in God's promise, and that this will produce in you a transformation, a new heart that will begin to love

01:44:45

God more than sin, and so your justification will lead to growth in sanctification, although not perfection of sanctification in this life.

01:44:59

Have you noticed, Chris, at least for me, I realize that the more

01:45:05

God gives me victory over sin, the more

01:45:11

He shows me how sinful I am? Yes. That I'm just realizing that I'm just scratching, you know, the surface layers, or another analogy is from the valley, the foothills look like mountains, but when

01:45:26

I got to the mountains, the foothills, I discovered real mountains beyond them, and that God in His mercy didn't want to completely overwhelm me and make me think

01:45:36

He was hopeless, so He only showed me a little bit of the sin. Yes, and I also find myself growing in my gratitude because of that.

01:45:44

Well, Luther said that the more you understand the law of love, the more you understand how you fail, which makes you understand the importance of grace.

01:46:01

But the more you understand the importance of grace, you see how much God loves you unconditionally, and how little you love unconditionally, which then, guess what, makes you realize how much more it's unique grace, and it's a constantly reinforcing thing.

01:46:17

I like to say that you have to grow closer to God to begin to understand how unlike God you are.

01:46:27

Amen. And that's why sanctification is a longer -than -life process.

01:46:34

There's no purgatory, but we will not be fully sanctified in this life even though we make progress.

01:46:41

But what the progress does is show us how gracious God has been to overlook so much that He now does want us to deal with, but that process continues throughout our lives.

01:46:54

But that message of free salvation that then inspires a heart to serve

01:47:02

God not out of love, but out of a loving gratitude is at the heart of the proclamation of the gospel in the 16th century and the 21st.

01:47:15

Next, Reformation Anglicanism is mission -focused. Everything in the church's life, its government, its worship services, everything has to remember that it's about how one proclaims the gospel.

01:47:35

There's two ways of looking at the church. Did Jesus come to found an institution to proclaim a message?

01:47:45

That's the Roman Catholic model. Right. Or did Jesus proclaim a message that had the power to create a community?

01:47:58

The latter. That's the Reformation understanding, and that's the understanding of Reformation Anglicanism.

01:48:05

If that's how the church starts, then the authentic church must be always concerned to make sure that its proclamation is continuing to grow the church in godly ways in its current generation.

01:48:22

And mission -focused, which is part of the DNA of Reformation Anglicanism, must be at the forefront of our mission today.

01:48:32

Reformation Anglicanism is also episcopal. At its best, godly bishops are entrusted with the task of proclaiming the gospel and defending the gospel.

01:48:51

And as an individual rather than a committee, they are more effective in standing for the truth.

01:48:59

I remember, have you had any experience church committee work,

01:49:06

Chris? No, thankfully. Well, there was an old episcopal bishop who had a great plaque on his wall of his office.

01:49:16

Well, God so loved the world, he did not send a committee. Now, to my brothers and sisters in the

01:49:27

Presbyterian tradition, I recognize that, again, from an Anglican point of view, that ecclesiastical institutions don't all have to be the same, and I don't want to denigrate committees.

01:49:44

One of the great ironies of Anglicanism today, because individuals can often disuse power, that's why you have committees to check them.

01:49:56

So Anglicanism now has both bishops and committees, which is probably the worst of all possible worlds. But historically, they have a bishop as a focus of unity and a spokesman for Orthodox teaching.

01:50:13

And you can see in the midst of the current difficulties of Anglicanism, what you have a majority world of bishops and archbishops standing up and saying, we have an obligation to defend the

01:50:27

Gospel, and that means that we disapprove and disassociate ourselves and our provinces from those

01:50:35

Anglicans who are not adhering to the Bible. And that in our context, in our day and age, it's helpful to have godly bishops who can proclaim and defend the

01:50:46

Gospel. And Reformation Anglicanism is liturgical.

01:50:53

Have you ever heard of this notion of the quiet time, Chris? Yes, I've heard of that.

01:51:02

Yeah. Well, it actually arises out of something called the

01:51:08

Mixed Life Movement in 15th century

01:51:14

England that, well, it becomes popular in 15th century England, actually, because all the way back to Gregory the

01:51:20

Great. But the idea is that you can be active in the world and still have a rich prayer life by taking time away.

01:51:35

The great strain was, do I become a monk to devote myself to a life of prayer and contemplation, but then

01:51:42

I no longer have any influence in the wider world? And the Mixed Life Movement arose by saying, no, you can serve the world, but still take time out to your devotions.

01:51:58

And, of course, they point to Jesus as the example of someone who did both. And when lay people in 15th century

01:52:07

England were becoming more excited about their faith, this was an example given to them that they should maintain a vibrant personal prayer life and Bible readings in addition to their secular duties.

01:52:22

And therefore, Kramner takes that notion of everyone having a time away from the duties of the world to pray and listen to Scripture, and he fashions out of that morning and evening prayer.

01:52:40

He creates a systematic way for everyone to read through the

01:52:46

Bible in a year, and to begin in their days by having

01:52:51

Scripture spoken to them. Because for Kramner, the spigot of the

01:52:56

Holy Spirit isn't holding hands and unbroken susception, and unbroken chain back to the apostle.

01:53:10

But actually, it's whenever God's Word goes forth,

01:53:16

His breath, His Spirit goes forth, just like human beings talking.

01:53:23

And therefore, if you want people to change, you need to sit them under listening and interacting and praying the

01:53:32

Scriptures. And therefore, the whole prayer book tradition is trying to give people a pattern of regular devotion,

01:53:43

Scriptural, Biblical devotion, so that the Holy Spirit will have a chance to work in their hearts.

01:53:51

I don't know if you've ever read any of Kramner's prayers, let's say in Holy Communion.

01:53:57

He's famous for doublets and triplets. We have erred and strayed from my ways.

01:54:08

A perfect, sufficient oblation and satisfaction for the sins of the whole world.

01:54:15

His prayers can literally be a mouthful. Do you know why? Why's that?

01:54:21

Not only is it beautiful rhetoric to make it memorable, but by being a mouthful, you can't speedily read through them.

01:54:33

And it gives time for the Holy Spirit to soak the truths of those

01:54:39

Biblical words into the hearts of the readers. One of the things that comforts me when

01:54:52

I'm with an older Anglican whose memory may not be clear and the end is nearing, we can get out the prayer book, the

01:55:07

Psalms, the things they've heard in year after year, and all of a sudden, even if they have difficulty recognizing stuff, the clarity, they'll be able to repeat with meaning the prayers.

01:55:25

That those words of God sewn in their heart remain even when so much other things have washed out of their memory.

01:55:35

That's the purpose of liturgy, not to create a straitjacket or to quench the

01:55:41

Spirit, but to be an effective means for the Spirit to write things on people's hearts.

01:55:50

I know that people can object to the notion of written prayers, but do you know what

01:55:57

I always ask when someone says that basically written prayers quench the

01:56:03

Spirit? Guess what I say. What do you say? May I ask what kind of church you go to,

01:56:09

Chris? I am a Reformed Baptist. Okay. Do you use 19th century gospel hymns or do you use contemporary worship?

01:56:19

I would say that the dominance or the predominant worship, as far as our hymnal is concerned, involves 19th century, but we do incorporate some contemporary worship, for instance, the

01:56:33

Gettys and so on, but a mixture of both. We also have the Psalter in our use.

01:56:41

I mean, this is not a diatribe against anything, but just to point out that many contemporary worship songs are, in effect, spoken meditations.

01:56:55

You are holy, you are holy, you are holy, right? Right. You're meditating as you sing these words over and over again, and many churches, the worship service consists of, let's say, 45 minutes of songs, announcements, and then a 45 -minute sermon, and a closing song, right?

01:57:21

Right. But those 45 minutes of songs are all written down, aren't they?

01:57:27

Yes. No one ever says, I need to compose a song right here and now for it to be meaningful for me.

01:57:36

Right, and in fact, just to remind my fellow Reformed Baptists and other Calvinists who might have a knee -jerk reaction against written prayer, a very popular book amongst us is

01:57:47

The Valley of Vision. I don't know if you've ever seen that, but it is a book filled with Puritan prayers, and obviously it has been of great help to people when they are at a loss for words when they are praying.

01:58:00

Yeah, so if you feel comfortable singing songs over and over again when someone else has written the words because they effectively help you express something that you find difficult to express, then written prayers can fall into the same pattern.

01:58:22

I don't think one has to be absolutist on only written prayers or only contemporaneous prayers, but Cramner understands liturgy as having the power to enable the

01:58:35

Spirit to work through his words in regular patterns so that it becomes part of people's hearts.

01:58:43

And by the way, Dr. Noll, we're out of time, so we're going to have to have you back to continue this discussion. One last thing.

01:58:50

Sure. Reformation Anglicanism is both transformative because the Holy Spirit uses

01:58:55

Scripture to enable people to love God more than sin, and therefore it's relevant to today's generation.

01:59:02

Amen. And if anybody would like to order the book Reformation Anglicanism, which is published by Crossway, you can go to cvbbs .com,

01:59:11

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com, and make sure you enter the coupon code IRON to get 10 % off when you order

01:59:18

Reformation Anglicanism, a vision for today's global mission, which is the first volume in a series on Reformation Anglican Essential Library.

01:59:29

Well, thank you so much, Dr. Noll. If you could hold on, I would love to say a proper goodbye to you.

01:59:35

I want to thank everybody who listened today. I want to apologize to everybody who was waiting to have their questions asked and that we didn't have time to address them.

01:59:44

We'll bring up your questions the next time we have Dr. Noll on the program, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives,