February 8, 2018 Show with Dr. Ashley Null on “A Reformation Manifesto for Contemporary Anglicanism”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. Now here's our host, Chris.

Arnton. Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnton, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this eighth day of February 2017.

The reason why I started chuckling in the midst of my typical opening announcement is I was going to say good afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, and I was happened to be looking at the words Cambridge University, so I almost said good afternoon Cambridge University, and there's a reason why I almost said that.

Today we have as a returning guest one of my favorite guests of all time, Dr. Ashley Null, and he has his B .D. from Cambridge University. We're gonna be finding out more about what that exactly means.

He also has his M .Div. and S .T .M. from Yale University. He's an Episcopal minister, speaker, scholar, author of Thomas Cramner's Doctrine of Repentance. He's the co-author of Reformation Anglicanism, a vision for today's global communion.

He's the canon theologian for the Diocese of Western Kansas, the theological advisor for the ACNA Diocese of the Carolinas, and he is the canon theologian to the Anglican Diocese of Egypt, having received Fulbright Guggenheim National Endowment for the Humanities and German Research Council awards, and he is a German Research Council fellow at Humboldt University in Berlin, Germany, and today he is going to be discussing a Reformation Manifesto for Contemporary Anglicanism, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr. Ashley Null.

Hey Chris, it's a joy to be with you again. And it is much more of a joy for you, I should say, it's much more of a joy for me. I meant to say it is a much greater joy for me to interview you, and I apologize for the slip-up.

I am just tongue-tied today. Before we go any further, there is something very unusual about your degree at Cambridge University, the B .D. You're only one of three living human beings to have this B .D. degree, and.

If you could tell our listeners what that is. In the medieval university degree in the Faculty of Arts, then you went into what was called a higher degree, either into Divinity or Law or Medicine. So it went B .A., M .A., and then in the Theology Faculty, it went Bachelor of Divinity and Doctorate at C .S.

Lewis, only had a Master's degree, even though at Cambridge, and that's because in his time, there wasn't a degree higher than an M .A. in English. To adopt, a Ph .D. was begun in Germany, the Americans picked it up, but when it came to Divinity, because it had these two ancient medieval degrees, where do you put a Ph .D.?

Bachelor's of Divinity? Or below, put a German-American idea of Doctorate? No. So in the Divinity Faculty in Cambridge, it goes B .A., M .A., Ph .D., B .D., B .D. So although it sounds like a B .D. is going backwards after a Ph .D., in Cambridge, it's a post-Ph .D. Ph .D.

It's the equivalent to a habilitation in Germany, Cambridge, and it's rarely awarded. Yes,.

And Dr. Null, as I said, is only one of three, or one of only three, living human beings who have this degree, I being the second of the three. You may recognize one of the names. Ever heard of a man named Alistair McGrath?

Oh, yes. He holds a Ph .D. as well. Oh, wow, in fact, I have never had Alistair on this program, but I would love to eventually have him as a guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Well, tell us about this book.

We had you on our program the last time to discuss your book that you cooperated with several other Anglican authors, and the title of that book is Reformation Anglicanism, a Vision for Today's Global Communion, which is actually the first in a Envisioned series on this topic, first volume, and we had you on this program the last time to broadly discuss this, and especially we were involved in the history.

Today we're going to be discussing a Reformation manifesto for contemporary Anglicanism, but if you could tell us about the book, especially for the sake of those listeners who did not hear you the last.

Time you were on. Anglican history is, as a state church, shifted, but here's a handy, as any kind of theology. Richard Hooker is famous for tradition, and actually Cranmer is the one who comes up with that.

Hooker goes explanation, elaboration, and defense of that in his Ecclesiastical Laws at the end of the 16th century. Tradition and reason hold through throughout the history of Anglicanism. What happens is he emphasizes that scripture is the most important theological authority, and reason is paramount.

Would you ever plant your petunias in the handle of a spade? No, I don't think I would plant anything in the handle of a spade. Exactly. And therefore, for the 16th century, reason and tradition were spades to unlock the nutrients that had become clotted.

Because you need a spade in your garden, you would never think of planting a flower in your spade. Doesn't work like that, right? That's right. So that tradition and reason don't supplement the truth of scripture, you unlock the true century understanding of what I call Reformation Anglicanism.

In the 17th century, there is on a primitive, patristic church. And guess which of the three they emphasize the most? I don't know. Tradition. You read the scriptures through the Father. Tradition is the great and reason help you with the Enlightenment is paramount.

The scriptures? No. No, the reason. The human reason. Reason, exactly. We don't trust Revelation. Revelation simply makes clear what one could have discerned if you tried hard enough with reason. And anything in the scriptures that appear to be contrary to reason are set aside.

Guide to have scripture help you convince the average person, because not everyone is an intellectual, and having them through Revelation can reinforce it. But there's nothing in tradition or custom that's authoritative.

If 19 of those to begin to have low church evangelical, high bar church, progressive liberals, all within the state church vying for supremacy.

And so an overall view of the book, Reformation Anglicanism, a vision for today's global communion, would be confronting the problems that we have with all the different branches of Anglicanism coming from a Reformation Anglican critique of the other branches?

Chris, what I'm about to say is not a criticism at all, but it is a clear, it is true claim that you have to defend it from true interpretation. The difficulties in current Anglicanism have become, if that's all that happens, then against, and not knowing what you're for.

Right.

How what you're for critiques your own life.

Yes.

To shape it into a life within you. Yeah, that is a...

And what you were saying earlier, and it's not exclusively the fault or the flaw, a major flaw within much of fundamentalism or fundamentalist Christianity. But there seems to be a very dominant trait within fundamentalism that would be very quick to expose the errors of everyone else other than themselves, but they might not be very adequate to defend exactly what it is they're supposed to believe themselves, if you follow what I'm saying.

Right, and again, we are called, you cannot propagate truth without refuting error.

Right.

But we can get so caught up in refuting error, we forget the truth, and propagating the truth will critique us, that we need to change and grow. Doctrinal purity does not necessarily translate into personal purity.

It's so much easier arguing about doctrine than it is dying to say.

Amen.

I want to repeat our email address for those of you who would like to join us on the air with a question of your own for Dr. Ashley Null. That is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the USA. And please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Let's say you are a member of an Episcopal or Anglican church. You want to say something critical about it, but you don't want to draw attention to your own identity. I can understand that you would want to remain anonymous or any other reason that involves a personal and private matter.

But other than that, please give us at least your first name, city and state, and country of residence. We have a listener in Peekskill, New York named Melinda. This is a good question, I think, that will open up the discussion on your manifesto that you intend to discuss today.

But Melinda in Peekskill, New York says, My question for Dr. Null is, in what specific ways do you think the Anglican church today is in conflict with its Reformation roots?

That's an excellent question. Let me answer that. But there is a fundamental between Reformation and Protestantism that I think it would be helpful to clarify as well. So would you like me to answer Melinda's question or to do that clarification about the difference between Reformation, Anglicanism, and much of Protestantism?

Do the latter.

Okay. It's a crucial question. Is the Bible the record of a saving message? Or is it a blueprint of everything? In other words, is there one authentic human culture? And every human culture around the globe needs to be shaped so as to fit a biblical blueprint.

Or is the message of salvation universal or claimed in a given place is determined by the cultural specifics of that time and people? A classic example of this may be known in the English Reformation, John Knox's Communion.

Cramner, in his second prayer book, has retained Knox, Jacks, and Chancel. Last supper, everybody was lying on the couch.

Right, if you want to be literal about having an example for everything that you're doing. Yeah, I understand what you're saying.

Now, some people think that Cramner was just making a witty professorial. It is not a moral issue. Native Americans who eat with their fingers around a campfire, is that immoral rather than using a knife and fork?

Obviously not immoral, no.

No, no. It's a matter of custom. And what you then have to do is to figure out how to talk about a fellowship meal in an explicit, in a cultural context that fits that generation. I personally think Cramner would have, as some people say in his third prayer book, gone to a seated communion because how do we eat at a meal in our culture on a table?

But he wasn't willing to adopt what he would have thought was the right practice for the wrong principle. So for Cramner, there is a universal message that then the church has to figure out how to effectively proclaim in the light of its culture.

Now, in the last hundred years, that's what our missionaries have figured out. That to be effective, you have to figure out how to proclaim the gospel within the cultural and societal norms and understanding of the people groups you're dealing with, particularly the Book of Bible missionaries.

But Cramner is saying that way back in the 16th century, good humanists, and it's about rhetoric, and rhetoric to the Anglicanism in the book, is not an antiquarian project to try to recreate the church.

It's to try to deal with the 16th century salvation message, and particularly salvation by grace alone through the generation of their day, and therefore around the globe.

One thing I want you to clarify very briefly, you use the term humanist, and I know that some of our listeners might be confusing that with a modern usage of that term, which is not flattering at all for a Bible-believing Christian.

Yes, I spend too much time in the 16th century, you're absolutely right. Humanism isn't an atheistic, for trying to figure out how to do speech, theology, the recovery of the soul.

Yes, it was.

As a Boy Scout, if there's a beautiful running stream, Boy Scouts camp, do you get the water below the Boy Scout camp or above the Boy Scout camp?

You'd get it above, because you wouldn't want the sewage that would be below.

Exactly. And therefore, the humanists of the 16th century used the phrase of Ad Fontes to the sources, and all of the rhetoric of the great authors.

And now if you want to address specifically, Melinda in Peekskill's question.

Melinda? Is that right, or Melinda? Melinda?

Melinda with an M as in Mary.

Let me give you a roundabout answer that are fine for you. Reformers did. The Anglican Reformers, by having this distinction, authority of the gospel message, and its implementation, its proclamation, they argued that faith and morals, as revealed in Scripture, are unchanging.

Even church ceremonies make sure that the church is still effectively proclaiming its message, generation after generation. So it was a no-brainer for Cramner, who's deeply skeptical that you get rid of the Latin Mass, not only because of doctrinal issues, but because it's in Latin, and that's not an effective way to proclaim the gospel in a liturgical service to people who only speak English.

That seems so obvious to us today, but that was a radical application of that principle. And as much as I love Cramner's 16th century language, he would be the first to say that you need to make sure that a liturgical service that is a millennial's century language enables them to have an experience of the transcendent that a lot of their big-box, mega-church worships go by that.

It's helpful for how you proclaim them change over time, and the things that you change, or depending on what, that's not the only way to organize a church so that the 16th century, and tries to reform churches on the continent, gets up against that from Scripture, and that therefore the church proclaims its message of love.

Well, I think that any time somebody tries to appease the majority of humans who are reprobates, and they forego the clear teachings of Scripture, and they purt obeying God in a much lower rung of importance than appeasing men, in fact, if they totally abandon any interest in obeying God, then you have a serious, serious problem.

Well, here's the thing. Cramner believed in cultural accommodation. You don't speak Latin, you speak English, even though that's been for years, because the people don't speak Latin! Many in a misunderstood cultural accommodation, the culture that Cramner wisely put in, so as to contradict another.

You can't say because God is love, then the scriptural, what is and isn't loving.

We are going to our first station break right now, and by the way, Melinda in Peekskill, New York, you have won a free copy of the book that we are addressing today, Reformation Anglicanism, co-authored by our guest, Dr. Ashley Null.

If you would please give us your full mailing address in Peekskill, New York, so that our friends at CVBBS, Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, can ship a copy of that book out to you. Compliments of Crossway, who published that book, and also compliments of our friends at CVBBS, who are sending it to you at no shipping charge to either you or to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

And we thank you for your participation in today's program. Oh, by the way, since you're a first-time questioner, you are also receiving a free New American Standard Bible, compliments of the publishers of the NASB, so please make sure you get us your full mailing address.

We are going, as I said, to our first station break right now. If anybody else would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Some of you have submitted questions without providing your city and state or country of residence. Please always provide us your city and state or country of residence when you write your questions, unless you are remaining anonymous, because the question is a personal and private one.

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And Dr. Ashley Null is on our program today, on our program today, I think I added an extra syllable in that sentence, and we are talking not only about the book that he has written, Reformation Anglicanism, a vision for today's global communion, which he co-authored with other Anglicans, but we are also specifically talking about a Reformation manifesto to contemporary or for contemporary Anglicanism.

If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com. We might as well take one more listener before we get to the manifesto itself that you'd like to address.

We have Brandon in Dayton, Ohio, who says, How can non-Anglicans learn from Reformation Anglicanism and include those elements in its liturgy and culture?

Well, Brandon, it looks like you need to talk. Chris is inviting me back for a 10-hour session.

Well, I have no problem inviting you back, but our show is only two hours long every time.

And Brandon, if you live in Dayton, Ohio, you should go by Springboro and visit my seven great-grandfather's two-story walnut block home, which he built as the first European in the Dayton River Valley in 1798.

It's a historical site managed by the city of Springboro and the local historical society there.

And by the way, Brandon, you have not only won a free copy of Reformation Anglicanism since you submitted a question today, but you're also, since you're a first-time questioner, receiving a new New American Standard Bible.

We need your mailing address in Ohio, so please give us the full mailing address and we'll have Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service get that out to you as soon as possible. But is that as far as you wanted to go, answering Brandon's question?

No, that wouldn't be very much of an answer, would it? That would be a great dodge, but that wasn't my intention. But it's a very interesting log home. Christian was actually very grateful to the city of Springboro for making sure that it continued.

Anyway, it's about 20 minutes, because he literally logged home since he was the only person, European, he was the first person to homestead under the... Anyway, to be honest, Brandon, there are two of them.

One, I talked about the regulative principle. I realized that in the 16th century, the idea of congregational responses was considered somehow, rather than repentance and not a matter of love. Cramner's whole concept of divine allurement is lost.

I don't believe that one has to give up on a predestination. The doctrine of divine allurement, which is central to Cramner's theology and to his liturgy. And divine allurement basically says this, the medieval church used institutional authority and fear of punishment in this life and the next to try to condemn hell.

So it's not as if the English reformers want to downplay the reality of sin and judgment, but what they want to emphasize is that they love children, so their children have a better life. Their children have a better life after the sin.

Nope. An invitation.

Right? Yeah.

He invites them to come and get their needs. He's acknowledging their brokenness and saying, let me help you. The next one is, for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that all that believe in him should not perish.

Does he use the S word for sin?

Nope.

Does he condemn?

No, he does mention condemnation, but he is trying to convey that there is a cure or a preventative established thing that God has sent his son to do.

If the first one's about human longing, the next one's about divine longing, right?

Uh-huh.

And what's the divine longing?

The faith. Yeah.

Human beings have a longing to be rescued. God longs to... Those two incredibly important principles are the foundation for all his evangelism.

And by the way, we have to go to our midway break right now, so you can continue your thought there if you'd like when we return. This is our longer break than normal, because Grace Life Radio requires a long break between our two 54-minute segments.

Please be patient with us and take this time to write in your questions right now to chrisarnson at gmail dot com. Chrisarnson at gmail dot com. Please give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence, unless you live outside.

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Since its beginning in 2001, Solid Ground has been committed to publish God-centered, Christ-exalting books for all ages. We invite you to go treasure hunting at solid-ground-books .com. That's solid-ground-books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past to present you can unearth from Solid Ground.

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