October 21, 2022 Show with Brad Gsell on “Veritas Christo et Ecclesia: Truth for Christ and the Church” PLUS David Reece on “What is a True Church?”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

It's iron sharpens iron.

This is a radio platform in which pastors Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing

the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us.

Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage We are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to

have in view in conversation To make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours.

And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions.

And now here's your host Chris Arnzen.

Good Afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania.

Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity Living on the planet earth.

We're listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron radio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen your host of iron sharpens.

Iron radio wishing you all a happy Friday on this 21st day of October

2022 we have two guests today one per hour.

The first is an old friend who's been on this program before and the second is a first -time guest who I just

recently met at a Conference in Knoxville, Tennessee,

and we'll be talking more about that momentarily.

But let me introduce Our first guest who is returning to the program.

His name is Brad Zell and if you're looking that up on the internet, it's G S E LL.

He is the author of a very controversial booklet the legacy of Billy Graham the

Accommodation of truth to error in the Evangelical Church.

It is a booklet that every Christian Should get a hold of because there is so much

ignorance about the very serious errors.

And even heresies of the late Billy Graham he was such a grandfatherly

figure and So godly in many ways that even I feel uncomfortable

criticizing him, but we cannot let the The

famous people in the world of Christendom be untouchable we have

to Treat them as Bereans and if the Paul if the Apostle Paul welcomed that kind

of examination anybody should Be open to that

and that includes those who love and still

uplift Billy Graham, but that is not our topic today.

I just wanted to give a plug to that very important booklet.

Brad is also an ordained minister at the Bible Presbyterian Church of Charlotte, North Carolina.

He is president of the International Council of Christian Churches and of the Independent

Board of Presbyterian Foreign Missions, he's also the editor of redeeming the time magazine

and today We are going to be addressing the theme Veritas Christo at Ecclesia Which

means truth for the for Christ and the church which happens to be the original motto believe it or not

of Harvard University who just appointed an atheist as its chaplain.

We're also going to be announcing the American Council of Christian Churches convention in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

But let me welcome you back to iron sharpens.

I am radio Brad Zell.

It's great to have you back on the program Just to refresh the memories of our listeners who have

heard you and also to introduce you More formally to those who have never heard

you on this program.

Why don't you tell our listeners about the Bible Presbyterian Church of North Carolina?

Where you are an ordained minister?

And for more details on the Bible Presbyterian Church of North Carolina where

Brad Zell is one of the pastors.

How would they find that tell us the website?

Okay.

Okay,

and I think you probably should include in their Charlotte, North Carolina since there are many Bible Presbyterian churches

and Tell us about the International Council of Christian Churches.

Yes

Fathers the ICCC

started as an answer to

apostate organization they include many ministers that denies a

deity of Christ the virgin birth of

Christ many of the major doctrines and the World

Council assembly in Germany and their whole message that a

gospel of The new world social

save anyone.

The ICC be holding

our next June from the

21st to the 28th 2023 in Collingswood, New Jersey, which is right across the

river from Philadelphia and The theme will be declared God

the nations.

We will have those many races

Methodist Presbyterian Independent and many others who will be coming

together To declare the Word of God.

The ICCC like the American down to

a least common denominator doctrinal Creed that

everyone that's all they believe the Methodist or Methodist Presbyterians or

Presbyterians and they hold strongly to their conviction which was

The teaching of dr. J. Gress the major that Princeton Seminary back in the

Early part of the 20th centuries that we can have wonderful Christian fellowship Even with those

who are not in our.

Yes, the thing that I found fascinating.

About the Conference that you had the last time.

Perhaps it was a year ago.

I can't remember exactly off the top of my head.

But when you had your council your convention here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania the American

Council of Christian Churches annual convention it was a unique experience

because I Believe most of those men who spoke and gathered

there Would have considered themselves fundamentalists in some

shape or fashion and yet There was no hostility.

An animosity and Tension between the Calvinists and the Arminians in the group,

which is something that for fundamentalists You very rarely find that experience.

Amen.

And tell us about redeeming the time magazine where you are editor.

Yes.

Well, if anybody wants to find out more about redeeming the time magazine

go to RTT publications org.

RTT publications org and As I said at the outset of the

program The theme for the conference which is coming up and it's coming up very

quickly actually.

It's going to be held October 25th through the 27th which is Tuesday

Wednesday and Thursday of next week and the theme as I

mentioned before Is the former motto or perhaps it still is the motto, but it's

it's an it's a motto that is totally being ignored.

I don't know.

You could tell me a bit more about that, but Veritas Christo at Ecclesia truth for Christ in the

church the original motto of Harvard University.

This as I said It demonstrates the

downfall of this great institution founded by and

for Bible believing Christians and and now they have an atheist as their chaplain, which

is quite a a Shuddering thing to

even contemplate.

Tell us about this theme that you are going to be basing all of the sessions

upon at the American Council of Christian Churches Convention here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania next

week.

Yes, we don't

need to have the American

Count

holding only amen.

And so

what

are

some of

the.

The headings of Sessions that will be delivered and perhaps you can even share with us.

Some of the speakers sure.

Yes.

Begin on to the clock

the

and how

the

Methodist and how

the Presbyterian.

And then we spoke of Harvard and how it has changed its motto and now

Harvard is an enemy of Christ.

And as Chris mentioned they have a chaplain on

the

characteristics

of Jonathan Peters from

Baltimore Maryland.

These

John McKnight from a biblical philosophy of Christian education

and Kevin Hoby, dr. Kevin Kobe from New Hampshire will be

presenting a

session

on godly

man.

Well, I'm looking forward to being at as many of the sessions as I can

This time around I'm going.

I already have shows booked.

But I am looking forward to To being blessed by as much

as the conference as I can possibly attend.

And I'm looking forward to seeing my old friend John McKnight the pastor of Reformation Bible Church in Darlington,

Maryland Who is a really magnificent preacher?

Yeah,

the

your pastor

will also be speaking from that church.

Adam Eshel might be hearing him.

Well, if anybody wants more information about this convention, it's the website is

ACCC the number for truth org ACCC

the number for truth org and then click on events and you should have all of

the details that you need and I as I said Will

God willing be there for at least a part of? the of The

convention and I'm looking forward to it.

We're going to our first station break.

And if you have any questions for our guests today Brad Zell Please submit them to Chris

Arnzen at gmail .com Chri s a r n z e n at gmail

.com.

As always give us your first name at least.

You're a city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the USA

and please only remain anonymous if your question involves a Personal and

private matter.

Don't go away.

We're gonna be right back right after these messages.

Have you noticed the gap that exists between the Sunday morning sermon and the Sunday school classroom or the small

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Our ministry is dedicated to providing local churches with sound Bible study resources.

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May God bless you.

Such a blessing to hear from iron sharpens iron radio listeners from all over the world.

Here's Joe Riley a listener in Ireland who wants you to know about a guest on the show.

He really loves hearing interviewed.

Dr. Joe.

More craft.

I'm Joe writing a faithful iron sharpens iron radio listener here in a toy in County Kildare, Ireland.

Going back to 2005 one of my very favorite guests on iron sharpens iron is dr. Joe

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We're now back with Brad Zell and Brad.

How is it from your understanding of history?

That not only great institutions like Harvard University, Yale

Princeton and even denominations that began as

Stole warts as bulwarks for biblical faithfulness.

Have crumbled into the ash heap of apostasy.

It is mind -boggling when you have seen throughout history

How some of these organizations even even a local school that is Less than a five -minute walk

from where I'm sitting Dickinson College Was founded by a Christian and

that is a an extremely liberal school today.

How does this happen?

20s and 30s.

It was a great struggle in these churches.

Renowned minister preached

declared war against word of God and

then dr. Jay Gresham Machen from Princeton

Liberal.

It

founded other churches

now to that division and then The Bible Presbyterian

Church.

That I.

So we need to be vigilant.

And never give up

on the part.

Do you think from what you understand from history?

I'm sure that over the years it has been a combination of both of the things that I'm going

to Mention but is it initially more of a theological

change a doctrinal switch or Is it more often? before

that.

Which maybe produces the heretical and apostate doctrine eventually?

A misunderstanding of.

The biblical.

Definition of true love.

There are many professed liberals who identify as Christians

who think that they are the champions of loving thy neighbor because they believe that

the most essential elements of Christianity have to do with

Reaching out to the underdog no matter who the underdog may be.

And feeding and clothing and housing the poor.

Now I believe that feeding and clothing and housing the poor are very important elements of biblical

Christianity, but liberals and leftists tend to go about Doing those

things improperly and unbiblically and very often they involve

Wanting to see government programs developed to do those things that actually are Robbing from the

wallets of other people to get them accomplished.

But am I making sense here though is it very often in your your knowledge of

history people who may think that they are Functioning as

biblical Christians and Imitating Jesus at least the Jesus that they have invented in their

mind when they are seeking to love others but very often their ideas

of Bringing that about and manifesting love it is a false love.

It's a love that tolerates sin it's a it's a love that cares

more about the comfort and peace of mind and the prevention of hurt

feelings on this earth than it does caring about the Eternal destiny of

your fellow man.

Am I making sense?

Yes.

Amen.

Now.

As I asked in the beginning, do you think that that was the predominant factor in the collapse

of all these once? great biblical institutions into the ash heap of apostasy.

Was it that or was it giving a listening ear to? the intellectual.

And false Christian leaders of academia

who were basically trying to promote the idea that

their discoveries and their theology and

teachings Were those that someone who is truly intelligent?

Would adopt and the rest of Christendom are basically behaving like cavemen

in ignorance by following outdated ideas in their minds.

Yes.

Logically assess different viewpoints, and I think

that

pride in

man is

accomplishments and thought that that is a direct

link to going down the wrong path.

Well, we have an anonymous listener who says I Am wondering what your

thoughts are on those that choose to remain as long as possible in

liberal denominations and congregations because they want to be a Light for the

truth there and they want to see if they can bring about Reformation in these places.

Is that a proper way for Christians to behave or should we always? depart

from such Institutions.

I am in the middle of a mess involving this question right now.

Yes, well the

Bible in many places talks of

to the Presbyterian once

the apostates got into control.

There was really.

The losing battle.

2nd Corinthians chapter 6 Tells us that What fellowship

has righteousness with unrighteousness or Him that believeth he that believeth

with an infidel.

And then it says come out from among them and be Separate sayeth the Lord and touch not the

unclean thing.

And I will receive you and be a father unto you and ye shall be my sons and daughters.

So there's a great promise attached to that and so the American Council

and the International Council and the Bible Presbyterian Church have always been known as

Not that we think we're the only ones by any means but that

We can't work within a denomination with men that say that

Christ didn't literally rise from the dead.

Oh, that's just a Metaphor or an allegory for newness of

life and they Explain away the scriptures and take out all

leaving.

Yeah, obviously.

To remain in a church and some of it would depend upon

whether there is a mixture in that specific congregation of Bible deniers of

liberals of apostates and Those that are true Christians that cannot in any way shape or form

function because you're giving a seal of approval upon the apostates merely by

being in worshiping with them in their midst and

Recognizing their leadership.

Right

and

came out there's the What was the Bible Protestant Church that

left the Methodist Church due to the apostasy?

And then I mentioned the Presbyterians and there's the the fellowship of fundamental Bible

churches and conservative Baptist denominations

and I I think we do much better in obeying the

scriptures and Separating from that which is evil.

It's a Denomination equity as

a true church when it fails to discipline Those that are

teaching false domain.

We may allow man nominations.

I can't think right now, but the One of the bishops made fun of the Trinity saying

that it was a God of committee all

kinds of terror.

Yes and.

Even church discipline when conducted by leftists

the wrong people are being Disciplined right for the wrong reasons.

Even J. Gresham Machen.

He was.

Excommunicated was he not.

A number

of

others

had to go

through ecclesiastical trials

and they

lost their churches and everything.

Yes, and that all started.

Did it not due to dr. Machen's Lack of

recognizing as a true Christian missionary.

A very famous female a Christian minister missionary of the early 20th century

Pearl Buck who was denying crucial teachings of the

scriptures, right.

Yes,

that's

yes.

We Go ahead.

China for many word.

And

they

were

missionary many illustrious

left the Presbyterian Board.

We have a listener named Robert in Westchester County, New York and

Robert says I Agree with everything that you have said thus far.

But I am always concerned that many brethren who identify themselves

as separatists do not include a vital element into their

separatism and that is humility and Very often it becomes a

shipwreck when separatists are Accusing

truly born -again brethren as Apostates or false Christians and have no

fellowship or communion with them Over secondary and tertiary and even lesser issues.

I am glad to see that the fellowship that you are a part of welcomes fellowship

between Reformed and Arminian Christians, but that is not always the case as

there are many Anti -calvinist fundamentalists who will have nothing to do with reformed Christians in any

way shape or form.

Yes, and no

matter what

does

this public

and

that

attitude?

I didn't appreciate their spirit.

It's Joyce and

one of sadness when

we have to separate from brethren and none of us is perfect or

Always does everything right?

It's nonetheless.

Yes, I very recently actually had an un a very unpleasant

telephone conversation with a fundamentalist Baptist who was

vehemently anti -calvinist and When he was first

speaking with me on the phone he thought that I Was an ally with him and all things

That he stood for and then when he found out that I was a Calvinist He said if we are

going to have any further communication It's going to be by text because even hearing your voice

knowing that you're a Calvinist is making me sick to my stomach and the

the irony is that Before he found out that I was a Calvinist he asked

me where I was from and I said, Pennsylvania and he Said all the great state of Pennsylvania

one of my greatest heroes of the faith George Whitfield was

was highly was was Always spoke very highly of his beloved

state of Pennsylvania, and he gave me an exact quote So after he this gentleman found out that I was a

Calvinist and started spewing venom at me I said, sir You do realize that George Whitfield was

a five -point Calvinist.

Don't you and he said you think I'm stupid I know that but George Whitfield lived

250 years ago and accomplished great things for God.

And I said to him and that makes sense how?

And he hung up on me, but well.

Some

of the Christ

said that

he

shall

come that

may be

in John,

but then

there's

also No man cometh unto the father unless the father

draw.

When Paul and the Apostles were in Berea As many as were

ordained to eternal life belief, so it's impossible denied that those

verses are in the scripture plus many many more and Some people cherry -pick just a verse

here or verse there, but we have to compare scripture with scripture and

so I I'm sure I may have someone from a different theological persuasion that

might have Much to say in rebuttal, but I came

from Arminian background and came to love

through the grace, and it was actually Actually

Charles had that's what

the Lord used and in my heart in life, but reformed people I've

seen some that it is

and I've

seen that

yeah, we have to

have a.

Correct ladder of priority.

In regard to what are the truths over which we totally separate and what

which are the truths? that we defend but

Very graciously have some kind of division.

For instance My church where I'm a member and and every reformed Baptist Church of

which I'm aware confessional reformed Baptist Church will have

very biblically faithful Presbyterians preach from our pulpit, but we would not

allow a Presbyterian to become a member unless the Presbyterian

was baptized biblically and Also, we would never allow a a

Pato Baptist into a church office.

So that's you know there are areas where you graciously Have

some kind of division.

But we have to be very careful when we completely cut off someone and declare them to be not a brother or sister

in Christ.

Right.

Well, I want you to summarize now because we're almost out of time For this hour

and we have a second guest coming up, but I want you to summarize.

What you want those who attend the American Council of Christian Churches Convention next

week in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

What you want those who attend that meeting to walk away with?

What you want to?

What you want to have most etched in their hearts and minds?

Well, I

believe.

Be faithful to the Word of God love the Great.

Commission

the

error.

And folks if you want to find out more about this convention that I spoke of That we have been discussing

next week October 25th 26 27th here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania Go to

a CCC the number for truth org a CCC the

number for Truth org and then click on events.

It's always a pleasure to have you on the program Brother is L and I look forward to your return.

It's been great talking with you as well.

And don't go away folks because we do have a second guest coming up.

As I announced in the beginning of the program We have coming up for our

second hour David Reese pastor of Puritan Reform Church in Phoenix, Arizona.

Who is going to be addressing?

What is a true church?

So send in your questions to Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

As always give us your first name at least your city and state and your country of residence.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back.

Here at iron sharpens iron radio praise God for the generous monthly financial support

of royal diadem jewelers educated by and affiliated with the American Gem

Society jewelers of America and the gemological Institute of America.

For the perfect custom -designed engagement ring or any one -of -a -kind piece of jewelry created

exactly according to your imagination and specifications.

Royal diadem jewelers has you covered no matter where you live in the world.

Royal diadem.

We'll walk you step by step through every stage of the process and even hold a high -tech Internet

virtual visit using state -of -the -art jewelry design technology to serve you.

They start by listening carefully to determine your needs.

They're interested in making what you want not what they want to sell you.

From rough design to digital model to photo realistic image to wax prototype model to

the finished product.

They are continually listening to your input likes and dislikes making any changes necessary

along the way.

This will ensure that your custom jewelry will turn out exactly as you dreamed and well beyond

your expectations.

Visit royal diadem calm.

That's royal diadem calm today.

Sterling Vanderwercker owner of royal diadem jewelers his wife Ronnie his business partner

and manager Brian Wilson and the entire Family, thank you all for listening to praying for

and supporting the work of iron sharpens iron.

Radio,

dr. Joseph Piper.

President emeritus and professor of systematic and applied theology at Greenville Presbyterian

Theological Seminary.

Every Christian who's serious about the deformed faith and the Westminster standards should have and use

the eight volume commentary on the theology and ethics of the Westminster larger catechism titled

a Authentic Christianity by dr. Joseph more craft.

It is much more than an exposition of the larger catechism.

It is a thoroughly researched work that utilizes biblical exegesis as well as historical and

systematic theology.

Dr. Moore craft is pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia.

And I urge everyone looking for a biblically faithful church in that area to visit that fine

congregation.

For details on the eight -volume commentary go to Westminster commentary calm.

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For details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia Visit Heritage Presbyterian

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Please tell dr. Moore craft and the saints at Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia That dr. Joseph

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to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in scripture through the person and work

of our Lord Jesus Christ and of course the end of which we strive is the glory

of God.

If you live near Franklin, Tennessee and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe ten minutes.

Are you are visiting this area or you have friends and loved ones nearby?

We hope you will join us some Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior.

Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church.

Our website is Grace Church at Franklin org.

That's Grace Church at Franklin.

Dot o -r -g.

This is pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our Sovereign

Lord God Savior and King Jesus Christ today and always.

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As host of iron sharpens iron radio. I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

A church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in

Flemington, New Jersey pastored by Alan Dunn.

Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's God's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshiped and how he

shall be represented in the world.

They believe churches need to turn to the Bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship

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I'm dr. Tony Costa professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love

Hope Reform Baptist Church in Coram, Long Island, New York.

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I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and Receive the blessing

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Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, New York that you heard about them from Tony Costa

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It's also the email of justice and in a question to our guest our second guest today David Reese pastor of Puritan

Reformed Church in Phoenix, Arizona, and we are going to be addressing the theme.

What is a true church?

It's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to iron sharpens iron radio pastor David

Reese.

My pleasure well before we do that we have a custom here in iron sharpens iron radio whenever we have a first -time

guest.

That guest gives a summary of their salvation testimony that would include the kind of religious atmosphere if any

they were raised in and What kind of providential circumstances our sovereign Lord raised up in their lives that

drew them to himself and saved them and that would include you.

So I'd love to hear your story.

Put me into a believing

household.

I can remember probably

talked about so the idea

that scripture was the authorities

alone and By faith alone in Christ alone and my mom would use this

phrase.

She would talk about how God cares about the fame of his great man.

He would watch the news with me and talk to me about worldview And talk to me and he kind of analyzed the news

at the time Telling that the only news sources that we were able to find were basically a godless secular news sources.

And he would kind of deconstruct it and explain how to look at things and how to apply the Bible to that.

I remember my parents reading the Bible to me.

I remember Having being exposed to the gospel from my youth and I can remember

I can remember my parents talking to me as they were kind of getting me ready for bed one night and talking

to me about how Solomon had asked the Lord for wisdom and That it pleased the Lord

that he had asked for wisdom as opposed to great power Or riches or or something like

that and I remember thinking how important it was to know the Lord.

Then and I remember later on Being exposed to John chapter 17 and you

know John 17 3 says and this is eternal life to know the only true God in

Jesus Christ whom he has sent and So the knowledge of God being the way that

God saved and engaging

Thinking through and struggling through some of the parables of Jesus.

And how striking the the words of Jesus are my grandparents also and I can remember in high school Engaging

with I went to the public school system, which I think my parents looking back on it regret that.

But they and so I would encourage everybody who has children in the public school system to pull them out and give them a Christian

education.

But I remember there being so frustrated with the liberalism and the

godlessness there and it pushed me to think about Christianity more deeply and

to be Find answers.

I remember reading a good deal.

So it'd be difficult for me to point to a particular moment Of conversion.

I can remember several times in my life having a strong sense of being struck by my own

Sinfulness and my need for salvation.

But I can't recall a very specific moment coming to the knowledge of God.

I have many moments I can think of throughout my childhood Where there was a deepening of the knowledge of God and

awareness of my own sin.

And if I need of Christ to make payment for my sin.

And I am very grateful for my parents and my grandparents For their role in that and grateful for the Lord and putting me

in a home.

That was a professing Christian home where I was put under The ordinances of God and under the

preaching of the word and to have my parents Kind of informally catechizing me by instructing me

in a way that I should go.

So that's how I came to a knowledge of the Lord.

I have obviously other growth that I can recall but that that's how I initiated into

eternal life and.

How did you come to discover and embrace the reformed faith

in college in particular?

I started to read the Bible.

I even got involved in some of the campus ministries and as I was

reading the Bible people started to The sovereignty of God.

I remember in the book of Matthew the Lord Jesus Christ talking about how? the hairs

of your head are numbered and how a sparrow can't fall from the sky apart from the will of the Father and

And thinking God controls everything.

And being struck by that and I remember being anxious about a number of things.

I could remember the weight of anxiety falling off of me dramatically when I became

Convinced that the Lord controlled every detail of the whole of life.

And so people started to tell me that I was a Calvinist.

I said, okay, it sounds like I should read this guy and.

I.

Started to engage with With basically the Institute of the Christian religion.

I started to read Martin Luther and I started to become aware of of that

reformed faith and Going well, this is biblical.

And I remember finding the Trinity Foundation Trinity foundation org with the published

works of Gordon Clark and John W Robin and being introduced to the Westminster

confession.

And Gordon Clark has an excellent kind of commentary on the Westminster confession.

That's kind of written for an introductory level and it's also made available as a free set of recordings on their

site and I remember kind of engaging with that and becoming convinced of the

Westminster Confession as the best confession available for summarizing what I thought the Bible

taught.

In that time, so that would've been my time in college A couple decades ago.

And so that was that was significant for me and I was trying to engage with Basically the

philosophy of the university there were people who were you know Just skeptics and and things like that and engaging with the

questions of how do you know anything and being able to embrace?

The the idea that the revelation that comes from God is a sure foundation for knowledge.

And how it is able to tear down all false philosophies is something that was

so powerful for me and such a balm because I could see the fruitlessness of

False philosophy and being able to take the word in a more thoroughgoing and systematic way and

engaging Apologetically it was first for my soul.

But it also made us I became a much more effective communicator.

And so the the benefits of the work of the Westminster Assembly and having Westminster confession and

catechisms to organize and systematized doctrine made it much easier To be able to communicate things

and to help to disciple other people, but it also gave greater stability to my own thoughts

and.

When and how did you become convinced that God was placing a call upon your life

into the pastoral ministry?

In Phoenix I Had a desire already

To to be able to serve in

college and I became reformed.

Talking to my father about entering the ministry and I remember him advising me that you know He had seen in the state of the

American Church.

They were trying to figure out how to earn your living in in the pastor.

It was something that he was concerned about for me.

He said why don't you figure out how to make a living and then seek to serve in the church?

But not make it something you have to depend upon.

So I went into business.

I own a business now.

And do not thankfully have to rely upon the church to be able to provide for my living.

Which makes those additional resources and I'm not it's good work.

For people to provide for their pastors and and that and that's good.

It's a good thing to take payment for that work.

There's certainly nothing sinful about it.

It's a good thing.

It's a blessing for everybody, but that was the advice my father gave me when I was nominated into office.

Sadly in my local church, there was soon thereafter a controversy over the doctrine of

justification and In that controversy over the doctrine of justification.

The you know, the pastor at the time was starting to teach from John chapter 10 that the

the saving knowledge of God was an experiential knowledge and that it was not a

The understanding and believing of doctrine that was sufficient as the means of

justification some sort of experiential knowledge and so I objected to

that and Put forward the assertion that if you understand and believe the

gospel that has been revealed from the mind of God.

That is only possible by the supernatural work of the Holy Spirit and it is the sufficient

instrument of justification and.

So that resulted in Sadly having to break away

and the organization of basically half of the church we we ended up organizing in defense of that doctrine of

justification of my faith alone and.

That was a sad thing with that resulted in a quick need to organize and then a couple years later I

became the pastor of that church and that's church and reform.

So that's the that's the process by which I became pastor and that is Going back.

Long before that I had an interest in it.

Well at the same time having my father advised me that he believed it would be prudent.

Given the state of the church to not have to basically go chase a job looking for that but instead

just seek to be able to serve in a faithful church and to look for opportunity without having to look for a living and.

And someone who works for an ad agency Might tell you are you

out of your mind?

You're calling your church Puritan Reformed Church.

The Puritans have such a horrible stereotype connected with them.

They were according to the myth to the slander they were Mean

spirited bigoted hateful nasty people joyless Condemning

everyone else but themselves and so on and so on.

So why the name Puritan Reformed Church and tell us how that stereotype?

That I just rattled off is a false one.

You read the writings of the Puritans.

You find that there are people who are focused on Seeking to fill the earth with the

knowledge of God as the waters cover them because they are

in Lord the Lord Jesus Christ.

And so you're certainly right that they the Puritans have a bad rap and people hear Puritan and they go What's this.

And they do think that what I found is it provides an opportunity to explain?

Doctrine in a way that other names would not and so when I tell people that a pastor appears in reform You know, they

typically ask what's a Puritan?

What do you mean by that and I'm able to express to them?

Well Puritanism is simply the idea that we need to be very

careful to have the doctrine that is taught in the church be from Scripture

alone and also that Puritanism is the

idea that we should have the worship that is Done in the church and the public

worship of God that it should be only that which we can demonstrate from Scripture.

And then thirdly that the government of the church ought only to be That which has

been appointed by God in his word.

And so Puritanism is Scripture alone applied to doctrine worship and

government.

And so when I get to explain that to people that the benefit of the name is it draws Questions and the

other thing is it makes it very easy to push people to go read the Puritans and you and you know

This there's a resurgence of people who are reading books from the Reformation and reading Puritans.

And so our goal is to be able to call together and and gather together.

Those who are concerned about those same things.

So the name is a very targeted Advertising name that makes it easy for people to know what we're about

and then people who don't know who are newer to Christianity there's an ability to explain it to them and

Right now our church is about half people who have been evangelized to and discipled and half people who

are who grew up in Christian homes and so the people that that didn't grow up in the

Christian faith that come there is that they see that there's a

shallowness to most of the modern church and.

So the the depth and the seriousness of the Christianity at Puritan reform was a

part of what made it attractive to people at the same time it prevents people from entering into a

covenant.

Membership covenant, you know without taking it seriously and helps to prevent All sorts of

vain covenanting that would otherwise occur.

So we found the name to be very fruitful and useful and I would encourage everyone to be clear about their

conviction and I think that Advertising that focuses on a niche audience in fact

is far more efficient than advertising that seeks to be broad.

Yes as somebody who's been involved in advertising for most the vast majority of my

adult life I have definitely early on found that to be extremely true and

whenever I have sold churches an Advertising campaign

I've told them don't use the slogan re about come to a place Will you'll receive a

warm hug and a loving greeting and all this stuff that?

Jehovah's Witness Kingdom Hall might provide you got to be very specific about

what you believe and either or both get the

interest of those who already agree with you or Perhaps spark an interest in those who are

foreign to what you're standing for who may want to investigate so I have always

instilled that in the minds of advertisers for decades and I want to make sure that the

Listeners know of your website.

I will try to remember to repeat this again before we go off the air, but it's Puritan phx

.com.

Puritan and phx is an abbreviation for phoenix .com and

At risk of going on a rabbit trail that is not on our major theme here.

But please I found it so fascinating what you do for a living what the company that that you run.

When I was at the fight laugh feast Gathering of course politic.

I was sitting there riveted listening to you and.

Tell our listeners about your fascinating business and

see that but Armored Republic

Manure, yes, we have.

We've sold to

various government agencies.

But the vast majority of our business is to the American consumer.

We have focused on selling body armor to free men and the reason we want to do that is I

believe that a.

Rifle a.

Semiautomatic rifle like an ar -15 is the basic piece of equipment of an infantryman to be able to resist

tyranny and the second piece is body armor and so if you think about having a

Good rifle and having body armor those those two things together Make it so that you can be an effective

infantryman and it is the duty of free men and of Christian men to be able to defend

themselves and to be able to be ready to defend other people and The ability to gather around

a sheriff if he calls for deputization In the event of an emergency or to gather around a

governor if he calls for the assembly of the people for defense the militia those two

basic pieces of equipment a rifle and Body armor make it so that you can be effective in

those and we talk a lot as Christians about resisting tyranny and about you know seeing the crown rights

of Jesus protected and you know, the extent of human authority being limited and We

need to be ready to support godly magistrates When they stand up

for our rights and since 2020 people have been thinking about this a lot more.

Because they've been thinking about all of the governmental overreach and you know The the forbidding of churches to

assemble and things like that governors that stood up Need to be governors that

Christians are Appreciating and ready to support and if there are future acts of tyranny

we need to be able to support those governors and so Having basic equipment that we

call tools of Liberty that are necessary to defend your God -given rights.

Those those pieces of equipment They help to give you a little bit more of a backbone because they

they help you to feel like you're prepared more.

But they also make you more ready.

Body armor is also useful for resisting criminals.

But I frankly tell people but the reason you need to get this reason is a duty for it is to be equipped to Be able to

resist tyranny and to be able to gather around godly magistrate as there is need.

And so body armor is that in school of Liberty and we try to make it very inexpensive.

And to make it so you have a deals where there's an ability to equip yourself.

And you know if you have adult sons encourage that as well.

But the idea of being ready to resist evil wherever it's found.

And the website again is armored Republic calm.

Armored Republic calm.

We're going to be going to our final break.

It's going to be a lot more brief than the last break.

If you have a question on our major theme, which is what is a true church? Submit it to Chris

Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

As always give us your first name at least your city and state and country of residence.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back.

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Pastor Reese, this is a.

It's amazing that this is a controversial thing to say, but that asks the simple question.

What is a true church?

Raises the ire of some people they think that that's a cultic statement.

Some kind of a statement made out of Arrogance that anyone would dare say there's such a thing as a true

church.

I can remember when my friend. Dr. James are white debated Barry Lynn

Back in the early 2000s.

It was a debate that I organized and Barry Lynn was defending the position that Homosexuality was

compatible with biblical Christianity and at the end of the debate He chastised very loudly and angrily

the audience for daring To say who could be a true Christian and who could not be

and of course if you were to ask Barry Lynn.

So in other words the neo -nazi skinheads who are in some kind of a church.

Is that a true church?

Obviously, I don't think he would have agreed with that.

But tell us why is this an important question and tell us the main elements that must exist in a true

church.

There's first of all you think about Individuals there's this question of you know, whether a person has a

credible profession of faith and who you should consider a true

churches.

Right,

there are there are radical bodies

there are institutions with idolatry

persons who are saying by staying in heretical bodies or false churches

and it's their duty to is

in

membership if they will

careful about the holiness of our association in formation of a covenant

bond and.

So you are under the influence of the teaching of that

church and you're giving your presence your support your gift your money

to that body and so you are influenced by the teaching and you are also

going to be supporting that teaching by your Participation and by your involvement and so

it is important for the honor of the Lord Jesus Christ that we not be members

of churches that are not true churches and It is also important

for the honor of the Lord Jesus Christ the true churches.

Exercise discipline and not have members remaining in we don't have a credible profession

that are.

That are that are in unrepentant sin.

And so those two things align together.

And so when we think about a true church, I think it's really valuable to think about

Also a credible profession of faith and that's really what's happening with a church is it's giving a public testimony and you're trying to evaluate

Is it credible that these people are?

Servant of the Lord Jesus Christ because the word church just comes from the word

Kurios, which is which is Lord.

It's about this is an assembly that's in submission to the courier to the Lord.

That's where you get kind of the German word the Scottish word Kirk and then the word church comes from that.

We're coming in down out of that.

We see this sort of linguistic connection there to that idea of Kurios the Lord.

And so we are trying to figure out what bodies are bodies that are actually

Submitting to the Lord Jesus Christ.

So I think that there are three key marks that we have to look for and you'll find this Caught in

scripture, but you also find it in the Reformed Confessions because in the Reformation people were really trying to consider,

you know is Is a Institution that submits to the Pope.

Is that a true church?

And so there were these a lot of work and thought went in during that time.

So for example the Scottish Confession the Westminster Confession both lay out what are called kind

of the notes of the church or the marks of the church and those marks are Having

doctrine that is in accordance with the Word of God.

Those marks are having worship that's in accordance with the Word of God and Also having government in

accordance with the Word of God and there's there are things that are more basic or less basic in each of those Categories so

when we think about doctrine I think the two basic things you have to examine are does this church claim that

the Bible is the inerrant infallible Word of God and that it should govern

our doctrine and our practice and our worship and our government and if it won't say that the Bible is

the authority then that right there at its root is Something that shows this is not a

true church.

Now from there The next thing you have to look at is the doctrine of the gospel and the word gospel has two

senses.

It it can be used in a broad sense the word gospel can refer to the whole counsel of God everything It's in the scriptures

or can refer in a narrow way to the saving message the good news About what

Jesus Christ did and who he is and so if It's really useful to

have the five solas of a Reformation, you know scripture alone Grace alone faith alone

Christ alone all to the glory of God alone if any of those are impaired.

If there's an undermining of grace at all of salvations by anything other than grace It's a false gospel to false church.

If there's anything other than faith as the instrument to connect us to the meritorious work of Christ,

then that's an Impairment of the gospel.

That's a false church and if they had any other mediator By whom we are saved

and the Lord Jesus Christ.

That's a false church now We can look at the doctrine of the Trinity and the doctrine of

incarnation as key things there as well associated with that gospel.

But I would say if we're looking for those things if there's anything that's a denial of those key

things is Absolutely a false church.

I need to not be under that teaching and so Separating involves going through a

process of Matthew 18, which lays out the idea of when is a public controversy?

going to engage with the public government of that body and Expressing your protest and then when

you look at the worship of God in particular are the sacraments being administered there

the Lord's Supper and baptism and Those being done in such a way.

They are not Being used as a sort of false gospel, for example in Roman

institution.

You'll have them claiming that baptism regenerates a person where the Lord suffered Transforms into the body and

blood of Christ and those things are idolatrous and heretical and therefore False, but you

could have other violations or removal of the sacrament and that would mean it's not a church.

But you should be concerned about worship to the whole and lastly with government if there's no discipline there is no church

because there's no distinction between those that are in and out and Also, if the discipline is done

tyrannically without any sort of public process.

Then you have not a church, but instead you have a sort of tyrannical

Institution that is governed by men and not by Christ.

And so those three major markers in terms of the Word of God and the gospel for doctrine looking

at the sacraments and really the worship of the church is the God being worshipped in the way he's commanded and

The government of the church those those three markers are the markers to differentiate true churches from false churches.

There's a lot more to say about those.

Well, we have an anonymous listener who says I am struggling with the idea of leaving my

church because I love so many people there.

The church does have the marks that you just listed, but they have music

that Appears more to be like a rock concert than a worship service.

That is the main reason that I'm leaving.

Is that a legitimate reason?

You go down to you can go down to

minute details of anything.

The basic question is is the church willing to deal with what the scriptures have to

say on the subject?

Exclusive psalmody a cappella scripture and we do not use musical

instruments.

It is our belief that that is the worship that God has

appointed if

you can show from scripture.

That the type of worship that is being done is sinful.

Or is contrary to God's Word or is an invention of human beings.

The appropriate thing to do is to go to the officers of the church in a public

governance meeting.

Evens why you are concerned about it why you think it is Unbiblical now if they can argue

back and prove to you from the scriptures why they're doing what they're doing then you ought to

submit to the teaching of scripture and If instead you find that they are doing

things that they are Appealing to human beings into the flesh and they are unwilling to reform

the worship after the Word of God.

Then I think there's a legitimate basis to leave on the grounds of anything where there's ultimately an

unwillingness To apply the Word of God and you have to be careful and go into detail

discussing things.

With leaders and the idea is you're going through much discussion.

You're engaging you're going through the Word of God and and you're trying to Patiently

discuss but we can't just engage on everything all at once.

What we have to do is we have to pick What is the thing that is most public and most

significant and you go from the thing that is? at a most disordered.

That's how the church has to reform.

The thing is there are lots of true churches that are immature in some way or that have some Some

some some sin element obviously that we all we all have sin elements that there are feelings in my church.

We have you know.

Every person in the church is is continuing in elements of place where they have sin and they they are blind to certain things.

So this idea that you have to keep reforming is an individual and also that a church body has to keep reforming.

There's a need to continuously reform.

The question is when you bring the issue up.

Is there a willingness to go through the matter?

According to the Word of God and if there's not a willingness to apply the Word of God then there's a pretense to

Submitting to that word no matter what the subject is.

And so if you go through it patiently and there's an unwillingness to apply the scriptures.

Then you ought to leave based upon an unwillingness to apply the scriptures after much discussion

and patience.

Yes, by the way, I'm halfway in agreement with your views of worship.

I personally believe that acapella worship is the most biblically faithful when you

use the New Testament As your blueprint in the regular relative principle.

I'm not an exclusive psalmist and I also have to make it clear that the church where I'm a member is

Neither a strictly acapella or exclusively psalmist

Church although we have the Psalter in our pews and we sing psalms frequently.

But I guess the listener also has to examine

If what he is saying.

Because somebody might describe a church's worship service as a rock concert because they are they have a

hypersensitivity to musical instrument instrumentation and it may

be overkill it may be a a false description.

But ultimately if their conscience is telling them to leave after it has been

biblically informed They should do so graciously and not

leave with an ugly stain a blemish on the relationship

that this person formally had with the congregation and leaders.

Isn't that a very important thing when Somebody leaves a church that they do so graciously and humbly.

Right,

right.

I was just speaking of something that only was a division over the the kind of music that is in the

worship service.

But that you think

that

they are in

error on that point.

Destroy.

Destroy all those relationships.

A difference in terms of how to engage on different kinds of doctrine.

I agree.

By the way, I want to just plug three programs that I did on iron sharpens iron radio back in

2017 promoting or biblically defending acapella worship.

They were three interviews with my friend pastor John Price of Grace Baptist

Church of Rochester, New York Who wrote an excellent book old light on new worship?

Musical instruments in the worship of God a theological historical and psychological study.

If you go to iron sharpens iron radio .com and type in John Price into the search engine all three

of those programs will come up and I Hope you'll find them interesting.

Even if you disagree with Pastor Price's conclusion In fact you brother

brother Reese you might find them interesting as well because the book did receive accolades from

exclusive psalmists, even though John Price is only exclusively

acapella and not an exclusive psalm.

Adi advocate.

Well, I'd like And I'd like you and the mating three minutes of

time that we have To summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our

listeners regarding the subject.

Whether the teaching is entertaining.

Edification of the body.

Focusing on the worship.

How seriously is the worship of God focused on God or is it focused upon?

People and trying to gain the pleasure of men.

And so what is what is the worship like.

Examine the worship and ask yourself?

Is this the worship that the Word of God teaches.

And then when you're examining?

In government of the church.

Asking.

Is this the government that Christ has appointed in his church?

Is this how Christ would have his church government and is there a concern or

discipline for holiness here?

And so if you examine that you look at a church and Consider the doctrine the worship and the

government and examine them all according to the Word of God Then what you will find is the ability

to discern rightly between those bodies that you can join in honor.

It's in the Lord Jesus Christ in those bodies that it would be sin to join.

And so I think those three categories are the main thing I want to make sure that everybody walks away with looking at the doctrine the

worship and the government of the church.

According to Scripture alone.

Amen, any events coming up or anything else that you might want to mention to our listeners before we go.

If you're here

reformed we

are.

We have worship at 10 a .m On the Lord's Day and also at 4 p .m.

And so we have morning and evening worship every Lord's Day.

Different teachings that are going on there and so I just want to if anybody's in Phoenix, make sure they're encouraged to come

and participate in the worship and also.

If anybody's going to reform car, I'd be happy to meet you and to talk there.

And I was reformed con taking place right now or is it in the near future?

Okay Great and If anybody's

interested in that send me an email and I will get you that information.

Well, don't forget about the website for Puritan Reformed Church in Phoenix, Arizona.

Puritan phx abbreviation for Phoenix comm puritan

phx.

Calm and also don't forget about the website for Armored Republic my guests business

Which is primarily body armor.

Armored Republic comm.

Armored Republic comm.

I want to thank you so much for being such an excellent guest today.

Pastor Reese.

I look forward to your return to the program and hopefully for a longer period of time next time.

Amen, I want everybody who's listening to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ

is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.

Have a blessed and Christ honoring weekend and Lord's Day.