Mormon vs. Pastor at Temple

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00:00

Wait the Mormons say that the spirit bears witness to them. Are you a Latter -day Saint? Yes, I am.

00:05

Oh, I see. Okay. Sorry So that makes sense then. So so real fast. I would go back even further than that.

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I'm an original. Okay, so this so Oh Good stuff. So you guys are then I respect you

00:18

Okay, Alma Gordon, okay I've seen Alma we've been we've been

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Alma from their page, right? I know. Okay, because I got them on We've been down because he likes to troll

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Because definitely is here's here's why you could argue that Christianity is a cult in their definition

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Well, it's a single person with a bunch of people wrote coming around him. That's no That's not that's not accurate at all

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The reason you got banned is because we'll we'll answer your questions and you'll ignore what's being said to you and go on I'll give you an example what happened just now

01:06

You tried to critique reform theology. Okay, you created a straw man a straw man.

01:12

Yeah, I'm going on for what you guys To find one place

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I challenge you to find one place give you one example where you talk that man does not have a will The lies justice in the free will deter you say that all the time you said at the

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James White said exactly why we don't Have a free one out of the body doesn't have a this is where it shows you need you need training to understand what all

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This means we don't believe this man. No, I don't mean to do you're too stupid I never said that and there's another example of you misrepresenting what's said to you.

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I didn't say you're too stupid I said you need training in the theology. You're trying to critique Reform theologians for a long time.

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Well, then why would you miss and I listen to everything? No, I'm saying this is what you guys Say no, I can't let me finish the fourth and you reform theologians denied man has a libertarian free will right libertarian

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There were free. No, no because we a libertarian freely is a free will as a completely

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I know I will and we're saying that God is the only being I am a libertarian. No Different context completely

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Liberty no, no, we're talking now See this goes show once again Alma you need more study in this before you try to critique it because you just tried to compare libertarianism as a conservative

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Political principle with Libertarian free will is the idea of a truly completely free being now

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The Bible teaches that God is Well, God is the only truly free being right, but you and I are

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In John chapter 8 where he says whoever commits sin is a slave of sin, right you agree with Jesus I'll be quiet as soon as you answer that question

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Do you agree with Jesus? Whoever commits sin is a slave of sin? Men and women are enslaved to sin

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Whether we've been enslaved to sin like Jesus said that it's a choice to be okay Do you agree with Jesus?

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Whoever commits sin is a slave to sin I'm just quoting it. I know you are.

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I've listened to that. That's if you agree with John chapter 8 I agree with Jesus Alma.

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Do you agree with him? Do I agree? Do you agree with Jesus when he says whoever commits sin is a slave that anybody who is a slave?

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There is always a reverse on that but they have to what Jesus says if to be signed to be in order Jesus says if the

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Sun sets you free you'll be free indeed Right, right, but he says if you commit sin, you're a slave to it

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Do you agree or disagree who caused us to be that that answer Jesus real fast? If you commit sin, you're a slave to sin go back to the premise the fundamental.

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Why can't you answer the question Alma? Why can't you answer the question because if I say yes, you're gonna move on to something No, I'm just asking if you agree with Jesus or not.

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Do I agree with? Whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. If you're committing sin that proves it.

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You're asleep. Thank you. That's all I wanted you Know now go on who caused us to be that.

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Okay, so let's did we cause ourselves to be that way Well, we have the choice to say hey, we're gonna choose this or did

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God just set us in motion to go use You're saying we but that's why I asked you what's your what's your fundamental basis for truth and how you know, what's true?

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You said the Spirit but there's a God in heaven and Muslims Muslims believe that the spiritual is leading them

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So they deny they don't have a fullness of it they deny definitely how true wait, there is truth everywhere

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So do you can gain truth? This is something that Joseph Smith said and I absolutely agree with him The fundamental principles of Mormonism is to go out and seek truth wherever it is.

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You guys have truth I agree with so much you guys say but then I go back to your fundamental premise of that we are predetermined to either be saved or go to hell and I did not

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I Absolutely deny that there because then that takes away accountability. So you disagree with the

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Apostle Paul in Romans 9 Jesus and I Interpretation of it. I just quote it.

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Would you like me just to quote it Ephesians chapter 1 you can quote it but there are certain things that I know that have

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Been interpreted. How do you know? Well, well, how about how about I just give you the quotation, but just so we don't get too far feel here this

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Paul was a fallen person, right? Right. So who's to say that his interpretation from God was pure?

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Well, we know that Paul he wasn't we know that Paul well Here's how you know the test of it's an attempt.

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No, no Because we are fallen creatures and and we are fallible creatures.

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We can make mistakes We can think the spirits talking to us when the spirits not talking to us. For example, there was a woman

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I'll tell you an example There was a woman who actually drowned her two children in a lake and she says that it was a spirit of God that told

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Her to do it Now your standard is well can't argue with that the spirit leads people, right?

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But the spirit lead her to drown her two children in the lake My point exactly now, how do you know if it's a spirit of God talking and not the devil or not yourself?

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You go back to the Word of God. You go back to the Word of God So there's the question. So when you said how do you know that Paul is speaking for God?

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Let me finish the question when you ask the question. How do you know Paul is speaking for God? I would say because God's already revealed himself

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Pre the Apostle Paul and he said in Deuteronomy chapter 13 verses 1 through 5

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That even if someone has signs and wonders, but they lead you after another God That's how you know, they're a false prophet

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So if they actually deny or contradict God's previous revelation of himself, that's how you know

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And if they have any false prophecy Deuteronomy 18 8 20 through 22, they're a false prophet.

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So the Apostle the Apostle Paul he's consistent with God's revelations How do you know

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Paul's from God because his words are consistent with God's previous John 14 6

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Jesus is I am the way the truth and the life no man comes No No Once again another misrepresenting misrepresentation, we don't say because the book says it that makes it true

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I've heard you say that right what we're saying is that the impossibility to the contrary is your guys's

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No, what we're saying is is that God has spoken? Yes, and he's given his revelation and it's in that book and we know that it's only there

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But the standard of the revelation in terms of its objective truth is based upon God and God's own revelation of himself

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Without that revelation you and I do become fools. If you reject his revelation you become a fool.

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Okay? Let's go back to this thing. If everything is predetermined by God that means everything that has come forth

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There is no there is no standard outside of God, right? No, there's no There's no so that means there's no nothing outside of God because there was there was

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God and then there was nothing and then he for Whatever reason created everything and that set the standard.

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So everything there's nothing else behind God is the Yeah, and then you say he's not the cause of those effects that later came about He's the he's the he's

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God is the holy Righteous standard point and you can't even judge and determine that something is wrong or evil or should not be a certain way

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Without his character and standard. So you're trying to essentially Yeah, take it inside the square

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You're trying to use God's holy character and his standards against God Essentially To essentially argue against God's own sovereignty

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What I'm saying is this is your problem isn't with me and reformed theology Your problem is with God's revelation of himself because he says this

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I declare the end From the beginning he determines he declares the end from the beginning

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Where's this where Turn you're using your three pound brain as a creature.

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Okay to add work who gave me my three pound brain Okay, so my three pound brain three pound brain is what's causing me to not

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So I have to suspend reality. No spend Logic and reason and all of that stuff to understand you can't even you can't even understand logic or reason apart from God So, why are you importing then your creaturely fallacious ideas into the text of Scripture God made you right but you're at you are an accountable creature to God Well God God is the standard of reason and logic and the laws of logic that are invariable and immaterial and universal

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Let me finish the thought go ahead exist in this universe because God created the universe It's a reflection of his own thinking and he sustains it all that doesn't mean however

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That human beings can't engage in fallacious reasoning. What's you just well a moment ago.

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You were arguing because you reason I disagree that my reasoning was okay, and I'm gonna show you that I'm gonna show you that it is relations

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I'm gonna show you that it is fallacious based on predetermined. No, no based on God's own

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Word now when you misrepresent Predeterminism, okay, then

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I don't have any problem joining you at that with you and that misrepresentation saying yeah, that's fallacious

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Okay, but when you actually accurately represent what God says about himself, there is no problem with predeterminism

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Give an example ready quick thing who who's responsible for the murder of Jesus? That would be

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Jesus He was the one that freely what's the Bible saying? He was the one that freely chose to die.

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Did Jesus have to die? To save his people from his sins. Yeah, why what's the Bible say about Jesus and and when all this could happen any other way?

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Well, the Bible says that Jesus is a lamb slain before The foundation of the world and we're all fast.

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You don't like that Alma Because because God did try your figuring out what

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I'm telling you what you're arguing against You don't like predeterminism God determining the future, but it says that Jesus was determined to die

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It depends on your before the foundation of the world. I believe in for ordination. Okay, because I believe in a pre -existence

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Okay, and yes, I do believe that Christ was pre -existing as well Well for a time you believe his pre -existence and he was created in pre -existence

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You believe that Jesus has eternally been gone read the King Follett discourse I know you guys like to quote the

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King Follett discourse Yeah, but I don't know if you guys have ever if you ever read the whole thing I look do you want to see my notes my mark?

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Okay, I have I believe you Okay, but every time I've listened to any one of your videos you go to the one part you say

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Okay, Jesus or Joseph Smith Said that that Have you read

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He said we have imagined and supposed that God has been God from all time and eternity and I will refute that idea

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And then let's expand This is made known to him by vision and by the

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Holy Spirit Body is what is that? What does that mean though because he's expands later and he says that nothing has been created and Here's why you have to accurately

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Alma you'll have to you'll happen. Oh, yeah. Well, let me let me finish the thought here beginning You don't have to have an edge.

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That's logic. You'll you'll have to accurately represent Joseph Smith, I'm and Mormon theology right in order to argue any kind of coherent way

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Hang on keep going. I just I've got a train of thought. Okay in terms of Mormonism doesn't teach that God creates things out of nothing

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Mormonism teaches that Mormonism teaches that God Essentially molds things pre -existing matter things that already were existence.

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That's a different thought Then what was God doing before he created hold on?

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We're still in the King Follett this boy. Okay continue That's something I would like I can just I could well

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I can tell you very simply and quickly Psalm 9. No, I'll give you what the Bible says.

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Go ahead 90 verse 2 says from eternity from eternity Into eternity you are

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God now. You don't believe that. I agree that you do not leave the standard of God Has always existed that is an eternal helmet.

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You just perverted again. You twisted it again. I'll give it to you I'm not taking your interpretation of the Bible from eternity in the

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Hebrew What is in turning a forever ago forever lasting with no beginning right from all eternity?

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Into all eternity you are God amen now, you don't believe that I do believe that so you believe

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I believe that Elohim Existed as God from all eternity. What does Elohim Elohim is

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Heavenly Father? Him actually from the original Because it to turn it talks about Elohim is a plural it's not necessarily

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I've listened to you guys From You don't take anything from white and flowers

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He's a sweet guy. We love we lovely and he's Disagreeing with you guys on your determinism.

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Okay, because if it is predetermined if everything's predetermined that means everything now is

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Now we're bouncing back and forth other things we're on there I asked you a question if you're trying to try to tell me what the

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Hebrew word Elohim means It means and I and I asked you it doesn't word does not mean plural. It means plural gods.

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No, it does not mean It's it's it's a word for God. It means that can be translated as a singular can be or a plural

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Yes in the Hebrew, right? It doesn't mean plural God Right, what does it mean?

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It's a singular translated as a plural say say for example in So use an example you had the book of Genesis the word there.

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Let us Create man in our image one God Father Son and Holy Spirit Consistent from Genesis to Revelation.

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What does it say father son? Well, the Bible teaches us the Bible teaches that the Father is God the

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Son is God The Holy Spirit is God and yet the Bible teaches that there is only one God none before There's none after standard of God using the word standard.

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Okay, let's go back to this then Christ said father I noticed listen to me.

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I've given you a second. Give me a second. Sure. Okay, Christ said father I pray

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Paraphrasing. I'm not gonna say it exactly because I haven't I'm not sure which Bible version you guys are taking it from anyway

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But I pray that they will become one with me even as I am one with thee

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All right, what does that mean? Well, do you know we're all gonna become a Cohesive massive

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God what I would encourage you to ask you this question. Where are you quoting from? Well, what what discourse is that in And this and this is the challenge

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I need to have the challenges is that you will take proof text to try to prove a point for yourself

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You don't even know where it's from. You don't know. Let me finish. You don't know the context in the Bible It is in the

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Bible. What does that mean? You know, what else is you know, what else is you guys? Let me

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I know let me finish this Yes, if Christ is wanting to be one with his people you don't even like he's one with God If you're not gonna let me finish a thought

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I'm gonna discontinue This is why you are banned from our pages because you ignore what's being said to you to simply change a subject and go elsewhere

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I my challenge my challenge No, I Give you my oath before God you did no such thing.

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Okay Trust me. You have a lot of work to do friend in your study of reform theology.

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Okay, so John 17. Well, you don't even know the basics as far as I can tell in terms of how you're misrepresenting reform theology

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I know and I know you say John I've heard John 17 of your videos John say the exact same thing

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Everybody I challenge you to find right? Okay with quake here when you talk to him. Yeah Okay, good.

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Now we're jumping to Quaker John 17. I have a John 17 goodness. We'd stay on a single point

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Alma Okay, I'm sorry John 17. That's the way my mind is where you quoted from right now. What is

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Jesus talking about a John 17? He's talking about making the people one with him in purpose

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In there's literally nothing in that text. So what does he say? I just want to point out to you something

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I want what you do What you what you do what you've done a few times already and I'm gonna encourage you against this isn't to abuse you

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I don't want to make you feel small. I'm gonna encourage you with this. I'm gonna encourage you with I know who I am When you proof text

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I'm saying I'm not trying to be abusive. I know. Okay, so this is a watch enough This isn't trying to puff chest against each other

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I know what I'm saying is is when you proof text as a way of Argumentation and you don't even know from where you're proof texting or the con no,

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I just barely read it. I didn't Alma when you build doctrine and theology off of proof texting when you know, nothing about the context is dangerous

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Right. What's because what did Jesus say in John 17? That's his high priestly prayer.

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And what does Jesus say? He says father Glorify me now with yourself with the glory that I shared with you before the world was

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Right, I agree with that. And so Jesus is teaching there that he's gonna receive the same glory as the father

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Now, here's the thing received or already had no in terms of Jesus veiled his glory

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Philippians chapter 2 When he condescended to become a man to take on flesh and became humble even unto death

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Which is what Philippians 2 says so Jesus is the God man. He's fully God and he's fully man

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But he veiled his glory I would say take that up with the Apostle Paul in Philippians chapter 2 and in John chapter 1 that's where I definitely agree

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I need to be a little bit more versatile. Okay. No Recommend I've got which

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English translation King James Versionism Okay What I would encourage you to in terms of maybe what you're getting at when you say which

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Bible I would mean English translation Yeah, which well, which which one has the best? Best way to interpret it.

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Well, I think that they all King James is actually But but it's really old English and you're talking about, you know hundreds of years old

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English style what I would encourage you with today is like an ESV It's a very readable easy to modern readable

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English version of a way to do it. Okay When you guys say that I got banned just because I wasn't listening.

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So real fast I just I want to ask you a question. So you hold on to that I'm just gonna say the final thing John 17 Jesus says

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Glorify me now with yourself with the glory. I had with you before the world was God says in the Old Testament.

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He says I am Yahweh and he doesn't share his glory with anybody and yet Jesus says that he shares the glory of the eternal

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God He had it before the world was to the standard of your in there So you notice how you have to import words into the text?

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Well, I'm just looking at this you adding words I will get it from your guys's point of view. I'm just going to dust and everything here.

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You are again It's the fundamental Everything you just change the subject everything starts

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Okay Jesus is sharing the glory of the only eternal God and God says he shares his glory with nobody else

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So what's Jesus doing with it? He is the eternal God and so in that passage of John 17

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You were trying to prove text attacks from the bottom about Jesus bringing us into unity with himself

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That unity had nothing to do with us becoming gods or sharing the glory of God at all It has to do it had to do with the fellowship and unity the same unity the father and the son

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The father and the son have a unity a fellowship and we share in that fellowship, but not in that nature

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We don't become gods like Mormonism teaches. There is only one

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God none before none after John chapter one was eternity.

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So he was just hanging out. Why did he make us? That's can I give you this John chapter 1? I don't want to answer you according to my own words everyone.

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I have read that one. I'll have to read reread it Okay, so, you know, but here's the I know you know this You know what in the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was

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God It says as far back as you want to go in our cane. Halaga's without a stopping point.

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He was already there Mormonism denies that it does not teach that Jesus Interpretation that it denies that no back to the

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King Follett Joseph. We believe Through the King Follett discourse what he talked about that spirits and the intelligence did not come into creation

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They didn't were not created nor then they can be destroyed. They have always been they are eternal I know therefore

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God the standard of God and people being able to encompass to partake of that standard and that glory has always

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Existed. Yeah, absolutely, but you don't believe that God has always been God Which God Thank you.

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That proves the point exactly See that that proves the point exactly the Bible teaches that God has been

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God from all eternity To be God by nature God What was he doing before he you keep going back to that?

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Here's what I say Alma Alma That's not even know listen, you may like that objection, but it's not a coherent objection when you say to me

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Tell me yeah When you cuz here's the thing when the Bible says that he's been God from all eternity go back to the

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Bible So when the Bible says God's been

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God from all eternity from all eternity and then your response is we know that's yeah

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But what was he doing for all that? What was he doing? Here's the thing ready? That's not an objection to the eternal nature of God.

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It's just you as a creature saying. Yeah, but what was he doing? I look at it and say God was always doing something to prepare us.

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Come on. Let me answer. That's something that's always happened Let me answer was never a time when there was there was okay

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There was something and then there was there was nothing and he made something Does that not prove that he didn't make things out of nothing?

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He actually made it out of himself because he's something right got a substance, right? None of this is coherent

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It's a non sequitur Everything you're saying have you taken a class in logic? I don't mean that yes, I have

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Where's I took it? Well, I went to the Art Institute of Salt Lake City, but I took it from a guy who actually

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He had a I can't remember exactly all before God. Oh, that's all I'm not saying anything.

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I'm not I'm not saying I know I'm asking my appeal to it. Who did you know? I'm asking what book on logic what logic textbook would teach you that what you just said was coherent

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Or that it logically followed That God had to be doing something and or that he just Eternally existed that attorney

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To eternally exist apart from everything being there's nothing and then he's the thing that exists

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There was never a time when there was nothing, right? Exactly, but you guys talk about Creation what

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I what I mean is means creation What I mean is when you say there was a time when there was just nothingness the

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Bible denies that because Who was there from all eternity was the one and only true and living

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God father son and Holy Spirit John chapter 1 I didn't finish the verse in the beginning was the word and the word was crossed on they on Face to face with it's a it's a word way of saying in fellowship with the father

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And he was by very nature God. Are they the same being same being? Three persons same name three persons one nature one substance one essence

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I would say this Where is it that we can ever even see that that's something that's so original.

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How do we even have a concept? Here's how here's how because you as an image We actually made it sense said that there was three person in three gods three beings

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Same God because they were all together. No, it wasn't the same God. It was only one in purpose

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What does that mean? Were they okay, so we're the same God by nature Okay, so look at it this way we can all be okay

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Not necessarily me because I don't believe in the same way as Christianity as you but you can all have Multiple Christians believing the same thing and they're together in unity, right?

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multiple persons beings Together under that same standard. Mm -hmm, right?

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This is exactly No, because that's something that you can actually logically gather now.

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We're together. I got you And I I know I know that that's how you would explain it according to Joseph's revelation

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Well, I just want to make sense the prop well to you as a creed as a fallen creature. Yeah, okay So now

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I need God to unfold. Yes, you need God's revelation and salvation for sure. Do you deny that?

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Okay, I I don't deny that. I need God. This is what I'm not saying. Did you deny that you need God's revelation?

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I I definitely do. Okay, so if in God's revelation, that's That predates

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Joseph Smith's revelation if he says in there in that revelation It's before Joseph Smith came and said this is what

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God the Father told me You gotta let me finish the thought jets you predated

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Alma you didn't you didn't even let me finish the thought just I'm just already started. I'm just trying to understand.

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Where's that come into all my to say this predated this therefore this And if you had let me finish the thought without interrupting

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Without assuming what I was gonna say, I never would have hung yourself like you just did just now

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Okay, I was making an argument. I wasn't tell you some weird That don't don't think about don't analyze me cycle.

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Oh, no I'm just saying that that in terms of our conversation with each other when you keep

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Misrepresenting your opponent or you keep assuming, you know their arguments. So you interrupt them to give them their argument

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I'm just I'm trying to figure out that right? So what I meant was Joseph Smith said he was representing the biblical

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God, correct? Yes. Yes, so the biblical revelation predated

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Joseph Smith Yes That's my point. So to find out if Joseph represents that God truly you look at his revelation where he says there's three

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Gods of this earth many more gods outside of that and you can become one one day

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The God of the Bible says that he is the only God he doesn't know of any other gods He is only one

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God by nature and it teaches that the Father is God The Son is God the Holy Spirit is

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God They share the one being or substance or of God nature of God now Of course just my three prime to a creature to a fallen creature.

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Can it here's the thing watch So I gotta say this to you humbly Alma, okay, go ahead

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You got to consider this and I mean this in terms of truly truly love for you. Please hear this truly

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If we as creatures who were in mid or falling and simple and I admit that I am

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If we look at God and we say no, it doesn't make sense to me I want him to look like me and we go this

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God over here makes sense to me as a human being You see how that's a problem

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I don't see how you can ever even get to that point if he isn't like you we were created in the image of God What does that mean the image or likeness of God doesn't mean created?

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Like God and why not by nature? You see the difference you're not a

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God by nature so Not necessarily saying that that's a hundred percent sure

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I would actually say that we have that capacity within us I know you believe that but that would deny what God says about himself

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He says I'm the first the last besides me. There is no God the standard. You don't believe You don't believe he's the first or last.

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I Don't believe that the standard Where's that word standard? That's the way

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I have to I'm sorry. How about that makes sense? How about if you read it just from Isaiah 40 through 40? How do you know that the

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Bible go back to that? Well, I'll start them. We can do a number of ways to To start the long time

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I talked to your guys from the cultish. He said I need to Recognize that the impossibility to the contrary

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Well, I would say if you want and I definitely know that you have to start from a starting point of there being a transcendent

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Logging you got that. Absolutely. I have to be a transcendent good good because otherwise we're just in that evolutionary thing

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There's we're just muck that came out. That's right. You got it. But at the same time

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Why is it when I listen to you guys You guys talk to atheists a lot and I've watched a lot of your guys videos

30:56

Why do you guys drop your Calvinism when you talk to atheists? I? Have I have never heard you guys talk to an atheist and tell him.

31:04

Hey, we're all Predestined people have already been predestined to be chosen to live or die

31:10

Outside of anything, you know, you know what you need to do. I'm misrepresenting that you're misrepresenting it. Yeah, right

31:15

You really doesn't make any sense. Yeah, you're but here's the thing It's in You demonstrate not logical

31:22

What you just said Wasn't what the Bible teaches or reformed theologians have ever taught.

31:29

So when you say that doesn't make sense I'm over here with you kicking it as well going goodness.

31:34

Let's let's beat this thing down when you beat up a straw, man It isn't impressive Okay, so when you when you ask it when you ask reforms, so when you're talking about Let me finish the thought because you did your thing, okay

31:47

So when you ask reformed biblical Orthodox Christians, how could you just dropped your view of God's sovereignty when you talk to the atheists?

31:55

I would say never did It's the gospel that is the power or can't

32:00

Calvinistically because that's the way God you just chose you to do you use You try to use one of the arguments we use

32:07

As a good doesn't apply to us. It's totally a no it doesn't because we don't hold the atheistic perspective you but you

32:13

We don't believe we're bags of biological stuff. So there's nothing transcendent You don't believe everything about you that you are has been predetermined to follow.

32:21

It's I here. Let me say to you this way Yes, I agree with the scriptures that God is absolutely sovereign like he says he is

32:29

Okay, you may deny it. He's sovereign over sin. You may deny it Well, and this is what I was asking in the beginning and then you got off of it

32:35

I'm sorry when I asked you because this might be a good helpful point for you And again, I'm not trying to be abusive to you I'm trying to help you see that Alma.

32:43

You can't beat up a straw man of reformed theology. I don't think we're getting anywhere You guys start off at this point and then you say but we don't actually go that way if you start off with three

32:57

Destination, I believe that God is sovereign. God is sovereignly to create everything we do. Yeah, he did create everything that we are determined he determined In his eternal infinite wisdom, he determines the end from the beginning right every however

33:13

However, he also made creatures like you and me who have a will right and we are making choices

33:20

God God is not making choices for us. He's not saying to us you be bad

33:27

You are doing what you want to do, right? So I asked you earlier who caused us to do what we want to do, right?

33:34

You gotta ask the question first and foremost. What point of time are you talking about pre fall ever or post fall?

33:43

So in the fall according to the book of Ecclesiastes when God created man He created him upright, but he sought out many devices

33:51

So when we fell we fell in Adam Romans 5 death spread to all of us all of us are dead in Adam God predestined

33:59

Adam to fall or was that just wait, are you saying you don't know? I'm just asking I'm asking you

34:05

Here's what I'm saying. I'm uh, if we just can agree do you agree with this? I believe that was absolutely necessary Do you believe that Jesus Christ is a lamb slain before the foundation of the world?

34:17

Yeah, he chose that yes because it was a necessary it was determined that he was gonna die as the lamb of God choice before the world began

34:25

Could he have chosen different The Bible teaches very clearly that God determines the shape of history

34:33

He declares the end from the beginning all the good and the bad So when it says well, this is what I was trying to get you to real fast because you keep springing off I'm just it's

34:42

Incoherent I'm gonna say that here's the thing your eyes and your heart need to be opened to the biblical

34:50

God who can do that first Only God only God This moment for you is either

34:57

God graciously moving in your life to give you truth to open your eyes to the truth or it is

35:03

God judging you This moment before with you receiving this much truth is either an act of God's grace to open your eyes

35:13

Or it is God allowing you to have your sin. So here's here's what he predetermined whether or not

35:19

I would oh He knows his plan. He's already pretty this isn't a surprise Are you doing with you?

35:27

No, it doesn't cuz you're doing what you want. You know what you just said, right? I do what I want. I'll prove it to you. You know what you said you said

35:34

Something about arguing and this is so much fun. All right arguing this fun. You're enjoying yourself. I agree you doing what you want

35:43

Okay, I'm doing what I said what I'm enjoying myself That God The Bible teaches that God nothing to do with Whether or not he's gonna allow you to love your sin or hate your sin if he allows you to love your sin

36:01

It's an act of judgment righteous judgment Then why doesn't God just do that for all men because he if we're all equally hold on hold on You don't believe that Alma You do not

36:12

I'm not saying that I don't believe Argument that you just tried to use against God you do not believe that I'll show it to you ready.

36:24

If I know that God is not a tyrant Alma if you and I walk into a courthouse Together and we sat in the seats

36:31

From 7 a .m. To 10 p .m. Or whatever time they closed and we watched all the court cases of robbers rapists murderers child molesters

36:43

You would not stand up after every single time they were gonna give a verdict and you would not say your honor

36:49

Why don't you just let them all go? Why not? Are you serious?

36:55

According to your guys Alma. No, no. No, that's what you just said. No, I am

37:00

NOT taking this for me I don't believe Alma if we rewind this tape here You're gonna see that you just tried to use that argument

37:09

You just tried to use an argument for yourself as a positive or I'm not arguing for myself

37:15

I'm checking for your guys's real life. No, that's not my perspective. Okay from your guys's theology. No, no

37:20

No, that's not what you teach because I'm gonna stop for a second. Okay, because you're forgetting where you were

37:26

You were using the argument about God and his sovereignty. Why doesn't he just give his grace to everyone? Let him all go

37:32

I said you don't believe I don't believe thank you. You know what you hold you hold to essentially a

37:39

Uniformed perspective of justice in the courts here because when you go to the court here do you stand before judges and you go?

37:46

I don't believe they should hold on three because they had that free will Enable to that they did what they wanted outside of that.

37:53

Well, who caused them to add? Let me finish the thought right? We're talking about human court analogy right now, right?

38:00

Okay, so we're there and I've been in court I understand how so send me to human court analogy You're in a court of law and you and I both agree

38:07

That that judges can't just be letting people go like flowers out of a hat I'm at right because we you and I believe he follows a standard justice right justice now

38:16

What's this? What is every criminal that goes in that court? That is truly guilty truly guilty What do they all deserve mercy grace or justice?

38:27

Now watch does the does the judge have the right at times to say

38:34

I choose to let you go say that for example, there's a Hold on does the judge have the right to say

38:43

I choose to remove the fine. I'll let the fine go Truck true, right, but it's possible.

38:50

The judge can say I'll give some great outside of what it says But he can say he can say

38:56

I'll give you grace on this particular thing Like have you guys seen on a Facebook? What's the name of the guy comes on Facebook all the time?

39:03

It's like the judge in Providence. It's like a judge in Providence. He's like the sweetest old judge who will come in Oh, yeah, and they're really guilty at times

39:11

They're like, yeah, I really was speeding but then he'll he'll he'll hear them and he'll say, you know what? I'll give you grace like I'll take away the fine of the fee and if the law states it

39:21

But it's within his it's within his wheelhouse to say I'll give you grace now watch us all of us hold to a perspective

39:30

Standard did God use to get to that so it's a real fast You are saved so real fast real fast.

39:35

So the issue of all of mankind being sinful. Do you agree with that? They have the capacity.

39:41

Hold on Do you believe what the Bible says all have sinned? We all have fallen short and fall short of the glory of God So we're in agreement.

39:49

It doesn't have to be all debate. We could be like I Wanted to talk all of them and I'll really what it comes down to I'm Don't forget what you're saying, right because I don't want us to get

40:02

I don't want us to lose this This is where I keep missing all you cuz you're asking the question about God's Sovereignty and his graciousness, but listen,

40:09

I'm trying to tell you is this we already agree that a judge has to give what? Justice but he has the watch he has the freedom if he desires

40:20

To give grace at times now you hold to a reformed perspective of the human court

40:27

But you all of a sudden when you get to God you abandon that so when God I'm going on to give grace

40:34

I'm going off of my understanding thing Alma Alma Alma. Here's the thing. It's nice. It's What is it

40:41

Alma Alma? Yeah, it's I'm gonna show Sarah. I don't want it It's not surprising that God gives justice to any of us that's what he owes us agree

40:51

It's surprising that he gives grace to even one of us. Okay, why? That's the nature of grace if God is the cause of us falling because he created wait

41:02

How is he not when you say that? How is he not when you say the cause of us falling?

41:08

He God determined everything to happen. It's already predetermined. So let's start at the beginning So, how do we do anything? That's not already predetermined.

41:15

This might just might help you Okay, God created Adam our representative in the garden. That's why that's why

41:21

I said I create him upright But he sought out many devices. God didn't go to Adam and say Adam.

41:26

Where does this be bad? Where's that? Okay, like I just barely read through that whole garden.

41:34

Yeah So the Bible says that that God created man upright and sought out many devices.

41:40

So Adam wasn't created In a state of righteousness. He was in a period of testing in term

41:45

He hadn't like been completed his righteousness because he had to obey God, but he also hadn't sinned so he was upright

41:53

But he sought out many devices so he fell when he saw the fruits and it looked desirable to him

42:00

So he took it God put that temptation did what he wanted. He did what he wanted.

42:05

No, no, listen How's him to watch Alma Alma hang on not God God didn't say you be bad you be bad

42:12

Who says it was bad though? Who says it wasn't? Would we even be here at all if there wasn't a fall?

42:18

Well, here's I'm saying actually the fact that there was a fall and the Redeemer Came into the world to save his people from their sins is to the glory of God So we are in the world and experience that brings most glory to God in his justice and his grace

42:35

So it was necessary for him to fall Necessary was it necessary determined determined would fall.

42:41

Okay, so he couldn't another wall No, there's no way that we wouldn't be in this state.

42:46

God knows God Oh, not only knows in terms of the future, but he doesn't learn the future

42:52

So your God learns the future your God has to my God constantly learning because that's the only way he can actually love somebody

43:00

Yeah, they got a Bible teaches that's a false God the idea that God learns something it says

43:06

Bible in the Bible Let's go back known to get me quoted known to God from all eternity are all his work

43:13

All that were all that all those wordings are Absolutely from you notice what happened there whenever you're given scripture biblical concepts

43:21

There are a few your position you go back to chestnut arguments like well, how do I even know the Bible? How do you for a minute there you were appealing to the

43:30

Bible as though it were true phone it works against you There are certain parts in the

43:36

Bible that contradict you and and and when you say contradict themselves Meaning when they contradict your perspective faith faith without works is dead.

43:44

Uh -huh, right, right. So, how do you have? Faith to be saved apart from works

43:51

So, okay, you can say that that's that's cherry -picking these two things. No, no, I'll answer it.

43:56

Okay, go ahead Okay, so Paul and James Into different things, right? Well completely and it's provable just by looking at the text at what point in Abraham's life is

44:07

Paul in when he's doing Romans Chapter 4, do you know and this is not a test.

44:12

I'm asking I'm legitimately asking Do you know a part of it of Abraham's life? He was pointing to in Romans 4 I mean this to genuinely probably genuinely.

44:20

I'm pretty sure that was when he was about to sacrifice Isaac. Well, he says before Abraham, I'm sorry

44:27

Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness, right? Now that was that was long before Isaac was offered on the altar

44:37

Okay, Abraham believed God spit on you. I'm sorry Abraham believed God and it was credited him as righteousness

44:43

Now that was long before Isaac That was long before Isaac was sacrificed in the altar, okay

44:50

But then you go to James chapter 2 and it's wisdom literature Completely different kind of writing style and James is appealing to a different part of Abraham's life

44:59

He's referring to the part of Abraham's life where he offered Isaac on the altar So Abra sorry

45:04

Paul and James aren't even talking about the same thing Because he already had faith first and then the works he was already justified

45:12

But then he says this how do you and I know that Abraham's faith was alive that it was real and not dead

45:20

By the fact that he offered his son on the altar. So the question for that. So here's the question

45:26

That's that was the proof. So James. Yeah, I think you're exactly right way James chapter 2 is not about how a person is saved

45:32

Whether it's my faith alone or faith and works James isn't even having that conversation. It's literally not his conversation

45:38

His question is can living faith or dead faith save? Which one? There's no such thing as dead, but you have dead you don't have

45:49

I agree. That's the argument. Let's see. What's the what I listen to you. What's the only thing that saves?

45:56

faith Right, but if you have faith apart from your words, you don't actually have faith

46:02

Anyway, if there are no one works why the works go together. Hold on. They're not separate. There are no works

46:07

There is no faith. There was no faith So what what is that? But according according to Paul and James, what's the only thing that saves and justifies?

46:21

faith alone Now the only way you and I know whether someone works you had no faith. Hold on the only way the faith is the fruit

46:29

Yes The work You wouldn't even do worse if you didn't have

46:37

Thank you. So but here's the thing watch the Bible teaches in Romans 4 just read it and don't read it with me hanging over your

46:43

Shoulder literally go read it and it's Paul's whole argument is this is the law can justify nobody

46:49

He says in Romans 3 by the works of the law No flesh no flesh will be justified in his sight for through the law comes the knowledge of sin

46:56

But then he moves on to say what about our father Abraham he says Abraham believed

47:02

God it was credited him as righteousness He says to the one who's working. He says his faith is not credited as a gift

47:09

But as what is due in other words, you're working for something you get a wage not a gift Okay, well, we finish the thought and you can answer definitely let you answer.

47:16

He says And when he's talking about this faith in Romans chapter 4 He says to the one who works his wages and credit as a gift for what is due

47:24

But to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly

47:31

His faith is credited as righteousness You were on a good point. No work. Hold on.

47:36

You were on a good point a second You were like, yeah, but you have to have faith. But if it's real faith, there will be works agreed

47:43

But watch what God says in the text He doesn't say he justifies righteous people who have good works

47:49

He justifies the ungodly Right, but they all go hand -in -hand because on you're not letting it

47:56

You don't have the words that you have not the faith and you can never be justified by the faith

48:01

Oh, hold on. No, no, the faith is faith alone and are and to prove it to you

48:07

That's why I said the Alma listen don't make this about me hanging on your shoulder Don't make this a bit of the camera right now go read it

48:13

Romans Good go read Romans 3 and 4 and just sit there and let it speak not

48:19

Jeff Not some other any just let the text be He justifies the ungodly and it says this how about David?

48:27

How did it happen with David? He said God credited to him righteousness apart from works and then it says

48:35

Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven whose sins have been covered Blessed is the man to whom the

48:41

Lord will not count his sin So through faith in Jesus We get a righteousness apart from any works and we also have all of our sins washed away and it's through faith like Abraham What did

48:54

Abraham offer God? Not a thing So there was no reason for him to offer

49:01

Isaac no Hold on remember I told you I specifically said that to you

49:08

There are two points in Abraham's life right that are used and Paul's or before he was offered

49:14

Isaac and that about 20 years And then Isaac is 20 years later in James.

49:21

So what did Abraham offer God in Genesis 15 6? What did he do?

49:27

Nothing Alma. That's the point But he believed he had those works going for he was teaching.

49:33

He was doing something He was believe how do you believe in God without doing anything that's passive didn't say that he didn't do anything in his life

49:40

But when he was not those good works in the faith going no, he was justified through faith proof

49:49

You've read the story later. Yes, you know, okay Do you remember the scene where the whole context of Abraham believed

49:55

God it was credited him as righteousness What did God do to make a covenant with Abraham? Do you remember?

50:01

Not a test, I'm just saying do you remember what he did Well, he promised the sentence and Right, but do you remember you were the covenant that he made with him?

50:15

No Remember he did how it says that he took the animals because they had a tradition a custom where they would take animals

50:20

They would cut their bodies in half and you had to hold like hands actually holding Up here.

50:27

We're close up there and it was to show like like Your your deepest level of commitment like and you would even walk through They the cut animals and it was basically a symbol to us together as we make a promise to each other

50:42

Let what happened to these animals happen to me if I break this covenant with you

50:49

But two men understand two men had to walk through it together They would even shake up really high to be like sure like I'm sure about that like get your way up there

50:57

So they have these customs we know it's amazing as God meets Abraham and that custom and he has the animal parts torn, but then what's he do with Abraham?

51:06

He makes him go to sleep and who walks through the animals God did by himself and swore

51:13

Only by himself that he would keep this covenant with Abraham. So what did Abraham do to be a part of that covenant?

51:20

What did he do? He was passive. He was asleep So God brings

51:25

Abraham into this covenant makes promises to him and what's Abraham's part of that covenant, what is it he's asleep

51:32

He's got nothing. Well, that was that was God making a covenant to him And that's are you part of the

51:39

Abrahamic covenant and blessing? Yes, you you daggone better be if you're a part of Romans 3 and 4 you had better be a part of that I Like I said,

51:50

I'm still having issues It's just if God already predetermined everything to happen.

51:57

Yeah, I know we have to go back to previous. No, it's all right I'm with you. I'm with destination is right. That isn't this is where I would you read a book if listen

52:04

It would you read a book if I gave you a book on it? Yes, you promise? Yes Yeah, I will do this, but we have an audio version.

52:10

I'll get that would be the best way I'll meet you my favorite, but I'll buy you a book so you can least understand

52:16

It'll take you through the texts from the Bible and then it'll have at least a solid simple Explanation so that you and I aren't chasing down trails going.

52:26

No, that's not what we're saying and you'll you'll have a better understanding Well, you will you I'll buy it for you.

52:31

Will you do that? Okay, so we'll make sure before you leave today I'll get your address It's called the reform doctrine of predestination by Lorraine Bettner, I'll buy that for you.

52:43

Let me buy it for you as a gift I haven't seen about two days or so And that'll at least run you through the text in Scripture from Genesis Revelation.

52:49

You can work through them You can listen to the arguments you can agree or disagree, but at least you'll see what we're actually saying

52:56

Yeah, I I want to understand what here's my one challenge because I'm completely lost everything. I've watched from you guys

53:02

I don't know if you haven't explained it right or if it's just been an appeal to a mystery or whoever you were talking to No, and it's like okay, but my problem is well, let me go back to it

53:13

Stated and let me answer this is where I am right now. Okay, if God predestined everything to happen the way it happened and this was like when

53:21

I was listening to you guys talk to Quake it with Even Jesus Christ he got to choose whether or not he would be sacrificed or not

53:30

Jesus is God that was his free will and choice and real fast. We gotta stop here real fast

53:36

I don't believe that in your version of Jesus who is a creature created by another God With a free will

53:42

I believe in Jesus as the eternal God Who is the God just go off here?

53:48

Okay, okay, make it sure that we understand that but then I heard You know, this is what I listen to James Ryan. He said that yeah

53:54

He said that it was worse that Christ died Than the little girl who was raped and murdered in in Houston.

54:01

Okay, but the problem is She never had a choice She was predestined according to the way.

54:08

I understand it. It's going on the way. I understand her I'm not trying to make a straw man. I'm with it. I'm with it. She was predestined to be raped murdered

54:17

Die cast off and dead out of our herbs. It held burned for all eternity Because she wasn't a

54:22

Christian. She couldn't have accepted. Okay, right pause there. I don't I don't want to do too much Point by point.

54:28

Yeah, I want you to keep going But let's do point by point first and foremost the Bible says God determines the end from the beginning Right, okay, and I'm giving you that one simple verse

54:36

I can give you 50 more that are as descriptive as that But he determines the end from the beginning right and I believe that but watch watch where you're stuck

54:45

Alma. You haven't helped You haven't helped you haven't helped it You haven't helped the situation because watch when

54:51

I say I believe yes in this fallen wicked evil world Where we all sin against each other.

54:58

We all hurt each other. We all violate each other Yes, God is sovereign in that fallen simple world as to what he allows sinful preachers to do them to others

55:08

But that God my God the Sovereign God he causes all Things to work together for good for those who love him and those who are called according to his purpose

55:19

Known to God are all his works from all eternity. Now, that's my God Just let me finish the thought and I'll let you talk.

55:25

I promise. Okay, that's my God known to God are all his works from all Eternity everything he's gonna do including the murder of Jesus, but I'm gonna think about this real fast

55:36

You haven't helped the situation because in your version God is always learning.

55:42

He doesn't know what's gonna happen and there are criminal rapists raping little girls and God's going

55:50

Sorry, I didn't know or I couldn't do anything about it. Your God isn't even worthy of worship.

55:57

I Would dip totally You believe that a guy who is impotent who doesn't know who learned

56:05

I've already heard that who's trying to figure things out See what the thing is, but don't you believe he's impotent?

56:12

This is my my point that I'm gonna finish this up, this is my point I'm gonna let you get to it. Okay, go ahead finish it.

56:17

Help me. Help me stay on this point You do believe he's impotent because you don't believe he could do anything to stop it

56:23

You could have done something to stop it. He's not a tyrant, but he won't he can't he won't stop

56:29

Man acting on his free will he on his will So he's got

56:34

Sammy so ready. He can't your God is Okay, but you're saying that your

56:39

God is your God could have done it But he just chose not to do it God in this world.

56:45

Here's the thing according to the Bible. God is holy Right. He is holy.

56:51

He is the standard of all righteousness and this world is fallen He's not falling it's falling and in this fallen wicked evil world people sin and violate one another and Yes, I believe in the sovereign

57:04

God who determines what evil he allows in his world and what evil he will not allow

57:10

Like, you know, you're forgetting, you know, you're forgetting you're forgetting about this You're forgetting about all the things that God is constantly restraining the hearts of the evil of men in But he's the one to predetermine them to be that Predetermined their nature.

57:26

This might help you. I think I found it. Yes, maybe that maybe this is German the nature. Hold on There you go.

57:32

I'm in our fallen nature. He predetermined us to be with you. Yes, God Therefore, hold on with God free does he not the other

57:39

God predestined that man would fall into sin, right? Now that doesn't mean however that God is behind you with a gun saying you're gonna be bad today

57:48

You and I are fallen creatures before Christ You and I are fallen creatures before Christ and you do what is according to your nature to want to do so for example

58:01

Okay, ready? Let's take us out of the equation. Let's do that again. You got you got a room Okay, and in this room, you've got a pile of meat and a pile of carrots.

58:12

We're talking about nature now in decisions Or no see guys going back to the rabbit and the vulture you got it, right?

58:19

Yeah, so heard it before so so good. Like I said, I've watched all your video good So I want you to think through it in our everything you said and I've gone through this and respond to it

58:27

No, when you when you get the rabbit that nature hold on when you send the vulture into the room What is the nature of the vulture?

58:34

What does it want by its nature? Wants to meet right and you put the key put the rabbit in there because of the nature of the rabbit

58:40

Right, so in the same thing for a fallen simple human being you put them in a world where they're fallen rebellious creatures hostile towards God What will they choose?

58:51

freely Their sin, they're freely choosing. They're freely What's the necessity for God creating us sinful on if he's an all -powerful

59:03

God Why even bring us that have to go back to the beginning? Here's here my answer to you because he gave us freedom.

59:08

Why why did God create in the way that he did and why did God? I give us very specific.

59:28

I didn't say it was arbitrary. So you're saying that he didn't have any other way that was no I said for his

59:34

Glory, and I'll show you how ready God's gonna be glorified Alma and I hope and pray with all my heart that you both

59:41

Were standing together before the Lord redeemed and saved on this day God will have a day where he is glorified in the end

59:50

In his grace through the people that he saved when they didn't deserve it And he'll be glorified and he'll be glorified on the last day in his justice

59:59

When he gives to people what they wanted all along and that's eternity without him

01:00:06

God That's true. There will but they can choose to be they choose it to be apart from him.

01:00:12

This is okay Thank you again your reformed theologian again Again, again, this is my you're getting closer.

01:00:20

This is okay I'm I'm still missing the part where you guys because this is what I've heard over and over and over again

01:00:25

Okay, if God had predestined everyone to choose to be

01:00:30

Evil sinful things and he chose and everything they do has already been predestined every sin

01:00:36

You commit every impure thought that you ever have Not only knows it he caused it here real fast real fast when we talk about God my

01:00:47

God Okay, so I'll just do two points here, okay one

01:00:55

You're getting there you are seriously you're getting this so when you talk about God knowing We don't mean like Mormons mean and I don't mean this offensive.

01:01:03

I'm not trying to jab at you We don't mean like Mormons mean like God knows the future because he

01:01:08

Learned about it or look through time to figure it out when we say that God knows We mean that God not that he learned but that he determined The shape right, but I'll give you a deal if you're like, but Jeff, what do you mean?

01:01:23

What does that mean in the context of like a sin or something? I would say I can bring you to a number of places

01:01:29

I would point you to two so I don't make it I don't overwhelm you with like a bunch of texts Just you and that would be

01:01:36

Genesis chapter 50 well, actually That whole section there of Joseph with Joseph and in Egypt just read from the beginning of that section to the end

01:01:47

But I would point God caused God caught or you've caused or meant it for evil But I meant it for righteousness or God meant it for right to one example

01:01:55

Yeah, cuz think about real fast what happened just go there I don't want to belabor this but just just please just barely for to think about what happened this story

01:02:04

I'm passionate about I used to be a pastor. I know this in a drug rehab hospital Yes, and so I used to like I said,

01:02:11

I've watched I am much everyone I used to love to share the story with them because I it was a lot I was trying to show them in terms of you might think you're here now and it's awful how you got here but God If you're in Christ God meant it for good.

01:02:24

That's all all of the wickedness all the evil that he allowed He meant it for good

01:02:30

God uses even the wickedness and the righteousness for his just So we're done

01:02:46

Used it, okay, he allowed it to bring forth his righteous. Thank you when somebody does something evil.

01:02:52

Thank you That's you just think guess what? Not Calvin You just helped to describe that's that's reform when we talk about God how he knows the future determines the future

01:03:09

He causes all things to work together For good even the evil sinful actions of men, but watch this he is not responsible

01:03:19

How well here's here's exactly on I try to give you the two passages, right? Let me I'm just gonna run through It's not complicated but Genesis His brothers it said that they hated him

01:03:33

They never had anything nice to say about it, right and then whenever he's coming to them now dad's like go help your brothers

01:03:39

He's coming they're like, oh look here comes this dreamer like they're just mocking him, right? So they grab him they throw him into a pit and then they sell him into slavery.

01:03:48

They hate Joseph Yeah, no me too crazy

01:03:56

Okay, so it says that they had never had a nice day about him. They hated their brother So now he goes into slavery to Egypt.

01:04:01

They go what they do now. They lied to their dad They're like an animal torn apart in the wilderness. So now what happened? He's broken and he's weeping

01:04:08

They're causing all this pain They are they wanted to do it, right?

01:04:15

But now he goes in a pot of her sows. What happens there? She's like got the hots for him and she tries to sleep with him

01:04:20

He does the right thing by running away and she says he tried to rape me. So what she's guilty of lying

01:04:27

Injustice. Oh, I agree. So now watch this at the end of that thing He says to his brothers when they show up and now he's like Prince over Egypt He says to them and you know the story he says evil but God he says

01:04:41

You did not send me here God Now wait, hold on if you think about it

01:04:50

How because actually no, actually y 'all had something to do with that You did but but how

01:04:56

Joseph says it is it actually? Ultimately it was God who sent me here for what purpose to preserve for you a remnant

01:05:05

Many people alive, right? So what was God's purpose in allowing Joseph's brothers to be as wicked as they were because God there we go an ultimate purpose

01:05:17

He determines whether or not he was gonna let them be wicked to their brother Joseph for his greater purpose

01:05:24

Glory Just just hypothetically hypothetically

01:05:31

If Joseph's brothers had not done that evil act would the same thing have happened?

01:05:37

No It wouldn't happen. No There's no way that God could have done it. God shows that he'd already showed bring about So he shows that those they would be wicked.

01:05:47

He wouldn't he would he didn't he didn't make them Because they were fallen creatures who wanted

01:05:59

Wanted to be wicked You don't have to ask a rabbit to want to be a rabbit Yes, but now we're talking about sin happens if a rabbit eats meat real fast we're talking now

01:06:11

We're now we're talking about sin. That's that's why I think but now we're now we're say the rabbit and the

01:06:16

Vulture what happens to a rabbit if it eats me? Well, you're you're pushing the analogy a little too far

01:06:22

Point is is Yeah, all we're talking Always I say it only goes so far.

01:06:28

That's right The point is talking about nature by nature what you want to do what you desire now fallen creatures desire sin

01:06:35

They're gonna want their sin. They're gonna want their rebellion. Okay, so I'm fine.

01:06:41

Yeah, God caused us to fall for his glory God determined to allow

01:06:47

Adam and Eve to have their sin Different than predetermined. He didn't predetermine it if he allowed that because they could oh, no, he was in charge of it shows different No, he was in charge

01:06:58

He was in charge and when you say caused it's the only way logically

01:07:04

We're not we're not saying we're not saying by cause that God again was putting a gun to Adams face saying

01:07:11

Be bad Adams going but in Adams watch and watch this and Adams going. No, I don't want to I don't want to and God's Causing him to do it.

01:07:20

He did what he wanted to do and God determined Exactly that plan of history for his glory

01:07:28

Another example is the murder of Jesus, you know the story Pontius Pilate Is it gather in this city against your

01:07:33

Holy Servant Jesus was? Pontius Pilate Herod the peoples of Israel and the Gentiles to do whatever your hand predestined to occur

01:07:43

So hold on he had that choice before so hold on What was for ordained by God to do to Jesus How Tell me how to describe it

01:07:56

Yeah, we have to talk about it because it's not gonna make any sense. I don't talk about he was He was beaten with a

01:08:05

Reed and he was whipped with a cat a nine tails and he had the thorns pressed into his head and he had his clothes

01:08:17

Organs exposed Beaten shamed what else happened in the court? They lied about him in court, right?

01:08:24

And they are the pilot says I find no fault in him and washes his hands of it Everyone says give us the murder or not him. So what is that wicked?

01:08:30

It's all wicked. They're lying in court They're taking an innocent man, you know, but what it what does it say they?

01:08:38

Did all these things but it was God's Predestined plan that they would he predestined the murder of Jesus So, yes certain individuals, but did it have to be exactly those in the hold on just got it

01:08:54

You gotta go that way Alma you got it. You gotta take a take a step back now first You were arguing that no, it's not possible for God to predestine evil things, but now oh, no

01:09:03

No, not that it's not possible that he doesn't way that he can be apart from the author of that sin

01:09:10

How about that ready? We already agreed that he did it with the murder of Jesus Okay This is something

01:09:18

I wanted this is something I wanted to say I want to answer that This is something I wanted to say when we talked when you talked about that to Quaker when you said and James White said it

01:09:25

Was worse that Christ died. What did Christ receive after he died? He rose from the dead on the third day and he seated on the right hand of God Enthroned with power, right?

01:09:37

So he received Amazing he didn't lose anything by dying by that sacrifice.

01:09:43

It wasn't really a sacrifice of loss He gained weight. He might have given up something temporarily, but hang on hang on Alma We have a little girl you and I have a different You and I have a different much different perspective of the crucifixion the

01:09:57

Bible talks about God's wrath God's judgment poured out and fully absorbed into Jesus on the cross

01:10:05

When you talk about like no big deal, he just died then rose again Jesus received the wrath of the father

01:10:12

I'm not talking about. Oh, yes I'm not understanding your point

01:10:18

Okay, this is what I'm saying when I was when I'm listening to James why when he's saying that that it was worse

01:10:25

That Christ dying on the cross was worse than what that little girl went through Who received the worst outcome that little girl according to she wasn't a

01:10:36

Christian. She was a Hindu or whatever She was raped murdered and now because she wasn't a

01:10:42

Christian She didn't have that thing. She's cast into hell Christ died

01:10:49

Beaten all those things by his ultimate reward He gained he didn't lose she lost and it had nothing to do with her

01:10:58

It had to do with God predestined her wrong to be there's where you're incorrect When you talk about people going to hell right according to the

01:11:07

Bible nobody innocent goes to hell Right. Nobody but who caused them to hold on.