Mormon vs. Pastor at Temple

Wait, the Mormons say that the spirit bears witness to them, right?

Okay.

Are you a Latter -day Saint?

Yes, I am.

Oh, I see.

Okay.

Sorry.

So that makes sense then.

So so real fast this year I would go back even further than I'm original.

Okay, so this so oh.

Good stuff.

So you guys are then I respect you.

Okay, Alma Gordon, okay I've seen.

Alma we've been we've been down low from their page, right?

I know.

Okay, because I got them.

We've been down because he likes to troll.

You could argue that Christianity is a cult in their definition.

Well, it's a single person with a bunch of people wrote coming around him.

That's no.

That's not that's not accurate at all.

The reason you got banned is because we'll we'll answer your questions and you'll ignore what's being said to you.

And go on.

I'll give you an example what happened just now.

You tried to critique reform theology.

Okay, you created a straw man a straw man.

Yeah, I'm going on for what you guys.

Find one place.

I challenge you to find one place.

Give me one example where you talk that man does not have a will.

The lies Justice Smith free will deter.

You say that all the time you said James White said exactly why we don't have a free.

Well, it doesn't have a doesn't have a.

This is where it shows you need you need training to understand what all this means.

We don't believe this man.

No, I don't mean to do you're too stupid.

I never said that.

And there's another example of you misrepresenting what's said to you.

I didn't say you're too stupid.

I said you need training in the theology.

You're trying to critique.

Reform theologians guys for a long time.

Well, then why would you miss and I listen to everything?

No, I'm saying.

This is what you guys say.

No, I can't let me finish the fourth and you reform theologians.

Denied man has a.

Libertarian free will right libertarian that we're free.

No, no.

Because we a libertarian freely is a free.

Well as a completely I know I will and we're saying that God is the only being.

I am a libertarian.

No.

Different context.

Completely.

Liberty.

No, no, we're talking now.

See this goes.

Show once again.

Alma you need more study in this before you try to critique it because you just tried to compare

libertarianism as a conservative Political principle with

Libertarian.

Free will is the idea of a truly completely free being.

And we believe like the Bible teaches that God is.

Well, God is the only truly free being right?

So you and I are In John

chapter 8 where he says whoever commits sin is a slave of sin, right.

You agree with Jesus.

I.

Make sure that we're understanding.

I'll be quiet as soon as you answer that question.

Do you agree with Jesus?

Whoever commits sin is a slave of sin?

Men and women are enslaved to sin.

Like Jesus said that it's a choice to be okay.

Do you agree with Jesus?

Whoever commits sin is a slave to sin?

I'm just quoting it.

I know you are.

I've listened to that.

That's if you agree with John chapter 8.

I agree with Jesus Alma.

Do you agree with him?

Do I agree?

Do you agree with Jesus when he says whoever commits sin is a slave that anybody who is a slave?

There is always a reverse on that.

But they have to what Jesus says if to be sunny to be in order.

Jesus says if the Sun sets you free you'll be free indeed.

Right, right, but he says if you commit sin, you're a slave to it.

Do you agree or disagree.

Who caused us to be that that answer Jesus real fast?

If you commit sin, you're a slave to sin.

Go back to the premise the fundamental.

Why can't you answer the question Alma?

Why can't you answer the question.

Because if I say yes, you're gonna move on to something.

No, I'm just asking if you agree with Jesus or not.

Do I agree with?

Whoever commits sin is a slave of sin.

If you're committing sin that proves it yours.

Thank you.

That's all I wanted you to.

That's all I know.

Now go on who caused us to be that.

Okay, so let's.

Did we cause ourselves to be that way?

Well, we have the choice to say hey, we're gonna choose this or did God just set us in motion to go

use.

You're saying we but that's why I asked you what's your what's your fundamental basis for truth and how you know, what's true?

You said the spirits because there's a God in heaven and Muslims.

Muslims believe that the spiritual is leading them.

So they deny they don't have a fullness of it.

They deny definitely have truth.

Wait, there is truth everywhere.

So do you can gain truth?

This is something that Joseph Smith said and I absolutely agree with the fundamental principles of Mormonism.

It's to go out and seek truth wherever it is.

You guys have truth.

I agree with so much you guys say but then I go back to your fundamental premise of That we are

predetermined to either be saved or go to hell and I did not.

I absolutely deny that.

Because then that takes away accountability.

So you disagree with the Apostle Paul and Romans 9 Jesus and I disagree with the interpretation of it.

I just quote it.

Would you like me just to quote it?

Ephesians chapter 1 you can quote it but there are certain things that I know that have.

Been interpreted.

How do you know?

Well, well, how about how about I just give you the quotation?

We don't get too far.

Paul was a fallen person, right?

Right.

So who's to say that his interpretation from God was pure?

Well, we know that Paul he wasn't we know that Paul.

Well, here's how you know the test of it's an attempt.

No, no.

Because we are fallen creatures and and we are fallible creatures.

We can make mistakes.

We can think the spirits talking to us when the spirits not talking to us.

For example, there was a woman I'll tell you an example.

There was a woman who actually drowned her two children in a lake and she says that it was a spirit of God that told Her to do it.

Now your standard is well can't argue with that the spirit leads people, right?

But the spirit lead her to drown her two children in the lake.

My point exactly now, how do you know if it's a spirit of God talking and not the devil or not yourself?

You go back to the Word of God.

You go back to the Word of God.

So there's the question.

So when you said how do you know that Paul is speaking for God?

Let me finish the question when you ask the question, how do you know Paul is speaking for God?

I would say because God's already revealed himself pre the Apostle Paul.

And he said in Deuteronomy chapter 13 verses 1 through 5 that even if someone has signs and

wonders.

But they lead you after another God.

That's how you know, they're a false prophet.

So if they actually deny or contradict God's previous revelation of himself, that's how you know.

And if they have any false prophecy Deuteronomy 18 8 20 through 22, they're a false prophet.

So the Apostle the Apostle Paul he's consistent with God's revelations.

How do you know Paul's from God because his words are consistent with God's previous

John 14 6 Jesus is I am the way the truth in the life.

No man comes.

So the book says it therefore that's the way.

No, no.

Pause.

Once again another misrepresenting misrepresentation.

We don't say because the book says it that makes it true.

I've heard you say that right.

What we're saying is that the impossibility to the contrary is your guys's.

No, what we're saying is is that God has spoken?

Yes, and he's given his revelation and it's in that book and we know that it's only there.

But the standard of the revelation in terms of its objective truth is based upon God and God's own

revelation of himself.

Without that revelation you and I do become fools.

If you reject his revelation you become a fool.

Okay.

Let's go back to this thing.

If everything is predetermined by God, that means everything that has come forth.

There is no there is no standard outside of God, right?

No, there's no so that means there's no nothing outside of God because there was there was God and then there was nothing and

then he For whatever reason created everything and that set the standard so everything there's nothing

else behind.

Except for God God is the eternal.

No, that's a logical.

Yeah, and then you say he's not the cause of those effects that later came about.

He's the.

God is the holy Righteous standard point and you can't even judge and determine if something is

wrong or evil or should not be a certain way Without his character and standard.

So you're trying to essentially Yeah, take it inside the square.

So you can't.

What you're trying to use what you're trying to do is essentially you're trying to use God's holy character and his standards against

God.

Essentially.

What I'm.

To essentially argue against God's own sovereignty.

What I'm saying is this is your problem isn't with me and reformed theology.

Your problem is with God's revelation of himself because he says this.

I declare the end from the beginning he determines he declares

the end from the beginning where the end from the beginning that man has a free will and.

Where's this?

Where?

Tell me where.

You're using your three -pound brain as a creature.

Okay to add work.

Okay.

Three pound brain is what's causing me to not understand.

So I have to suspend reality.

No spend.

Logic and reason and all of that stuff to understand.

You can't even you can't even understand logic or reason apart from God.

So, why are you importing then your creaturely fallacious ideas into the text of Scripture.

God made you right, but you're at you are an accountable creature.

Well God.

God is the standard of reason and logic and the laws of logic that are invariable and immaterial and

universal.

Let me finish the thought.

Go ahead.

Exist in this universe because God created the universe.

It's a reflection of his own thinking and he sustains it all.

That doesn't mean however That human beings can't engage in fallacious reasoning.

What you just well a moment ago You were arguing because you reason.

I disagree that my reasoning was okay, and I'm going to show you.

I'm going to show you that it is relations.

I'm going to show you that it is fallacious.

Determinism.

No, no.

Based on God's own word.

Now when you misrepresent Predeterminism, okay, then I don't have any problem

joining you at that with you and that misrepresentation saying yeah, that's fallacious.

But when you actually accurately represent what God says about himself There is no problem

with predeterminism.

Give an example.

Ready quick thing.

Who who's responsible for the murder of Jesus?

That would be Jesus.

He was the one that freely.

What's the Bible saying.

He was the one that freely chose to die.

Did Jesus have to die.

To save his people from his sins.

Yeah, why.

What's the Bible say about Jesus.

And and when all this could have happened any other way.

Well, the Bible says that Jesus is a lamb slain before The foundation of the world and we're all fast.

You don't like that Alma.

Because because God did not you're figuring out what.

No, no I'm telling you what you're arguing against.

You don't like predeterminism God determining the future.

But it says that Jesus was determined to die.

It depends on your for the foundation of the world.

I believe in for ordination.

Okay, because I believe in a pre -existence.

Okay, and yes, I do believe that Christ was pre -existing as well.

Well for a time you believe his pre -existence and he was created in pre -existence.

You believe that Jesus has eternally been gone read the King Follett discourse.

I know you guys like to quote the King Follett discourse.

Yeah, but I don't know if you guys have ever if you ever read the whole thing.

I look.

Do you want to see my notes my mark?

Okay, I have.

I believe you.

Okay, but every time I've listened to any one of your videos you go to the one part you say

Okay, Jesus or Joseph Smith said that.

That.

Have you read.

He said we have imagined and supposed that God has been God from all time and eternity and I will refute that idea.

And then let's expand.

This is made known to him by vision and by the Holy Spirit.

The body is what is that was man's.

What does that mean though?

He because he's expands later and he says that nothing has been created.

And no, right, no, hold on here's why you have to accurately Beginning you have to have an

end now logically Alma you'll have to you'll have no.

Yeah.

Well, let me let me finish the Thought here beginning you have to have an edge.

That's logic.

You'll you'll have to accurately represent Joseph Smith and Mormon theology

right in order to argue any kind of coherent way.

Okay, so real fast.

Hang on.

Let me finish the thought.

Keep going.

I just got a train of thought.

Okay in terms of.

That Mormonism doesn't teach that God creates things out of nothing.

Mormonism teaches that Mormonism teaches that God Essentially molds things pre -existing matter things that

already were existence.

That's a different God.

Then what was God doing before he created?

Hold on?

We're still in the King Follett this boy.

Okay continue.

But that's not what that's something I would like I can just like well, I can tell you very simply and quickly

Psalm 9.

No, I'll give you what the Bible says.

Go ahead 90 verse 2 says from eternity from eternity.

Into eternity you are God now.

You don't believe that.

I agree that you do not leave the standard of God Has always it's Alma.

That is an eternal Alma.

You just perverted it again.

You twisted it again.

I'll give it to you because I'm not taking your interpretation of the Bible from eternity in the Hebrew.

What is in turning?

Forever ago forever lasting with no beginning right from all eternity into all

eternity you are God, amen.

Now, you don't believe that I do believe that so you believe I believe that Elohim Existed as God

from all eternity.

What does Elohim Elohim is heavenly father?

Elohim actually from the original.

The kid it deter it talks about Elohim is a plural.

It's not necessarily.

I've listened to you guys.

He's a sweet guy we love we lovely and he's.

With you guys on your determinism, okay, because if it is predetermined if

everything's predetermined that means everything now.

Now.

Now we're bouncing back and forth other things we're on there.

I asked you a question you're trying to try to tell me what the Hebrew word Elohim means.

It means and I and I asked you it doesn't.

Word does not mean plural.

It means plural God's.

No, it does not mean.

It's it's it's a word for God.

It means that can be translated as a singular candy or a plural.

Yes in the Hebrew, right?

It doesn't mean plural God.

Right, what is it?

It's a singular translated as a plural say say for example in.

So use an example you had the book of Genesis the word there.

Let us Create man in our image one God Father Son and Holy Spirit

Consistent from Genesis to Revelation.

What does it say father son?

Well, the Bible teaches us the Bible teaches that the Father is God the Son is God The Holy Spirit is God and yet

the Bible teaches that there is only one God none before.

There's none after standard of God using the word standard.

Okay, let's go back to this then.

Christ said father.

I noticed I've given you a second.

Give me a sec.

Sure.

Sure.

Okay, Christ said father.

I pray Paraphrasing I'm not gonna say it exactly because I haven't.

I'm not sure which Bible version you guys are taking it from anyway.

But I pray that they will become one with me even as I am one with thee.

All right, what does that mean?

Well, you know, we're all gonna become a Cohesive massive.

God what I would encourage you to ask you this question.

Where are you quoting from?

Well, what what discourse is that in.

And this and this is the challenge all my Need to have the challenges is that you will take proof text to try to

prove a point for yourself.

You don't even know where it's from.

You don't know.

Let me finish right?

You don't know the context in the Bible.

It is in the Bible.

What does that mean?

You know, what else is you know, what else what does that mean to you guys?

Let me I know let me finish this.

Yes, if Christ is wanting to be one with his people if you don't let him in like he's one with God.

If you're not gonna let me finish a thought I'm gonna discontinue.

This is why you are banned from our pages because you ignore what's being said to you to simply change a subject and

go elsewhere.

I my my challenge my challenge you guys on Calvinism and you guys.

I answer I give you my oath before God you did no such thing.

Okay?

Trust me.

You have a lot of work to do friend in your study of reformed.

Okay, so John 17.

Well, you don't even know the basics as far as I can tell in terms of how you're misrepresenting reformed theology.

I know and I know you say John.

I've heard John 17 your videos.

John say the exact same thing I did everybody I challenge you to find right?

Okay with quake here when you talk to him.

Yeah, I love to talk to you about this.

Okay, good.

Now.

We're jumping to Quaker John 17.

I have a job here John 17.

Goodness, we'd stay on a single point Alma.

Okay, I'm sorry, John 17.

That's the way my mind is where you quoted from right now.

What is Jesus talking about the John 17?

He's talking about making the people one with him in purpose.

In purpose, there's literally nothing in that text that says so what does he say?

I'm gonna I just want to point out to you something.

I want you to watch it what you do what you what you do what you've done a few times already.

And I'm gonna encourage you against this.

This isn't to abuse you.

I don't want to make you feel small.

I'm gonna encourage you with this.

I'm gonna encourage you with I know who I am when you proof text.

I'm saying I'm not trying to be abusive.

I know.

Okay, so this is a watch enough.

This isn't trying to puff chest against each other.

I know what I'm saying is is when you proof text as a way of Argumentation and you don't even know from where you're proof

texting or the kind.

No, I just barely read it.

I didn't think I had it on Alma when you build doctrine and theology off of proof texting when you know.

Nothing about the context is dangerous because what did Jesus say in John 17?

That's his high priestly prayer.

And what does Jesus say?

He says father.

Glorify me now with yourself with the glory that I shared with you before the

world was Right.

I agree with that.

And so Jesus is teaching there that he's gonna receive the same glory

as the father.

Now here's the thing received or already had no in terms of Jesus veiled His glory

Philippians chapter 2 when he condescended to become a man to take on flesh and became humble Even

unto death which is what Philippians 2 says.

So Jesus is the God man.

He's fully God and he's fully man.

But he veiled his glory.

I would say take that up with the Apostle Paul in Philippians chapter 2 and in John chapter 1.

That's where I.

Definitely agree.

I need to be a little bit more versatile.

Okay now.

Recommend.

I've got which English translation.

King James version is okay.

What I would encourage you to in terms of maybe what you're getting at when you say which Bible I would mean English

translation.

Which well, which which one has the best?

Best way to interpret it.

Well, I think that they all.

James is excellent.

Okay, then I'll just but but it's really old English and you're talking about, you know.

Hundreds of years old English style.

What I would encourage you with today is like an ESV.

It's a very readable easy to modern readable English version of a way to do it.

Okay.

When you guys say that I got banned just because I wasn't listening.

So real fast, I just I want to ask you a question.

So you hold on to that.

I'm just gonna say the final thing.

John 17 Jesus says glorify me now with yourself with the glory I had with you before the world was.

God says in the Old Testament He says I am Yahweh and he doesn't share his glory with

anybody and yet Jesus says that he shares the glory of the eternal

God.

He had it before the world was to the standard of you're in there.

See notice how you have to import words into the text.

Well, I'm just looking at this.

Keep adding words.

I will get it from your guys's point of view.

I'm just voting destined everything here.

You are again.

It's the fundamental.

No, I'm talking about Jesus, I'm everything's just change the subject everything's just change the

subject.

Okay, Jesus is sharing the glory of the only eternal God and God

says he shares his glory with nobody else.

So what's Jesus doing with it?

He is the eternal God and so in that passage of John 17 You were trying to prove

text attacks from the bottom about Jesus bringing us into unity with himself.

That unity had nothing to do with us becoming gods or sharing the glory of God at all.

It has to do it had to do with the fellowship and unity the same unity the father and the son.

The father and the son have a unity a fellowship and we share in that fellowship, but not in

that nature.

We don't become gods like Mormonism teaches.

There is only one God none before none after God was he doing.

What was he doing before that.

John chapter one was eternity.

So he was just hanging out.

Why did he make us?

That's the thing.

I give you this John chapter one.

I don't want to answer you according to my own words every one.

I have read that one.

I'll have to read reread it.

Okay, so, you know, but here's the I know you know this.

You know what in the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God.

It says as far back as you want to go in our cane halal goss without a stopping point.

He was already there.

Mormonism denies that it does not teach that Jesus.

Interpretation that it denies that no back to the King Follett Joseph, we believe.

Through the King Follett discourse what he talked about that spirits and the intelligence did not come

into grace.

They didn't were not created nor then they can be destroyed.

They have always been they are eternal.

I know therefore God the standard of God and people being able to encompass to partake of that standard

and that glory has always existed.

Yeah, absolutely, but you don't believe that God has always been God.

Which God?

Thank you.

That proves the point.

Exactly.

See that that proves the point.

Exactly.

The Bible teaches that God has been God from all eternity.

To be God by nature God.

What was he doing before he you keep going back to that?

Here's a mental Alma.

That's not even know.

Listen.

You may like that objection, but it's not a coherent objection when you say to me Tell me yeah,

but when you when you cuz here's the thing when the Bible says that he's been God from all eternity Go back to the Bible.

Let me finish.

So when the Bible says God's been God from all eternity from all eternity and then your response is we know

that's yeah.

But what was he doing for all right?

What was he doing?

Here's the thing ready?

That's not an objection to the eternal nature of God.

It's just you as a creature saying yeah, but what was he doing?

Now I look at it and say God was always doing something to prepare.

Let me come let me answer Something that's always happened.

Let me.

And there was never a time when there was there was okay.

There was something and then there was there was nothing and he made something.

Does that not prove that he didn't make things out of nothing?

He actually made it out of himself because he's something right got a substance, right?

None of this is coherent.

It's a non sequitur.

Everything you're saying.

Have you taken a class in logic?

I don't mean this.

Yes.

I have.

I took it.

Well, I went to the Art Institute of Salt Lake City, but I took it from a guy who actually.

Had a.

Before God.

I'm not saying anything.

I'm not to him.

I'm not saying I know.

I'm asking my appeal to a door.

Who did you get this?

I'm asking what book on logic what logic textbook would teach you that what you

just said was coherent.

Or that it logically followed.

That God had to be doing something and or that he just eternally existed.

That attorney.

To eternally exist apart from everything being that there's nothing.

And then he's the thing that exists.

There was never a time when there was nothing, right?

Exactly, but you guys talk about Creation.

What I mean is means creation.

What I mean is when you say there was a time when there was just nothingness.

The Bible denies that because Who was there from all eternity was the one and only

true and living God father son and Holy Spirit.

John chapter 1.

The verse in the beginning was the word and the word was prostom they on Face to face

with it's a it's a word way of saying in fellowship with the father.

And he was by very nature God.

Are they the same being same being?

Yes, three persons same name three persons one nature one substance one essence.

I would say this.

Where is it that we can ever even see that that's something that's so original.

How do we even have a concept?

Here's how.

Here's how.

Because the u .s.

It shows that he actually made it sense said that there was three person in three gods three beings.

Same God because they were all together.

No, it wasn't the same God.

It was only one in purpose.

What does that mean?

Were they okay, so we're the same God by nature.

Okay, so look at it this way.

We can all be okay.

Not necessarily me because I don't believe in the same way as Christianity as you but you can all have Multiple Christians believing

the same thing and they're together in unity, right?

Multiple persons beings together under that same standard.

Right.

This is exactly what Joseph Smith.

No, because that's something that you can actually.

Logically gather now we're together.

I got you.

No, I and I I know I know that that's how you would explain it According to Joseph's revelation.

Well, just the problem is it makes sense the prop well to you as a Cree as a fallen creature.

Yeah, okay.

So now I need God to unfold.

Yes, you need God's revelation and salvation for sure.

Do you deny that?

Okay, I I don't deny that.

I need God.

This is what I'm not saying.

Did you deny that?

You need God's revelation?

I I definitely do.

Okay, so if in God's revelation, that's That predates Joseph Smith's revelation if he

says in there in that revelation It's before Joseph Smith came and said this is what

God the Father told me Dated Christianity, I mean, you gotta let me that was true.

I'm a you gotta let me finish the thought.

Yes, you predated Alma.

You didn't you didn't even let me finish the thought just I'm just already started.

I know I'm just trying to understand where's that come into all my to say this predated this therefore this what I mean

is.

And if you had let me finish the thought without interrupting, I'm sorry without assuming when I was gonna say I thought you never would have

hung yourself like you just did just now assuming I was making an argument.

Don't use some weird.

Don't don't think about don't analyze me cycle.

Oh, no.

I'm just saying that that in terms of our conversation with each other when you keep

Misrepresenting your opponent or you keep assuming, you know their arguments.

So you interrupt them to give them their argument.

I'm just I'm trying to figure out that right?

So what I meant was Joseph Smith said he was representing the biblical God, correct?

Yes.

Yes, so the biblical revelation predated Joseph Smith.

Yes.

That's my point.

So to find out if Joseph represents that God truly you look at his revelation where he says there's

three Gods of this earth many more gods outside of that and you can become one one

day.

The God of the Bible says that he is the only God.

He doesn't know of any other gods.

He is only one God by nature and it teaches that the Father is God.

The Son is God.

The Holy Spirit is God.

They share the one being or substance of God.

Nature of God now.

Of course, it's my three -pronged to a creature to a fallen creature.

Can it.

Here's the thing watch I'm gonna say this to you humbly.

Okay, go ahead.

You got to consider this and I mean this in terms of truly truly love for you.

Please hear this truly.

If we as creatures who were admitter falling and simple and I admit that I am

If we look at God and we say no, it doesn't make sense to me.

I want him to look like me and we go this God over here makes sense to me as a human being.

You can you see how that's a problem?

I don't see how you can ever even get to that point if he isn't like you.

We were created in the image of God.

What does that mean.

The image or likeness of God doesn't mean created?

Like God and why not by nature?

You see the difference.

You're not a God by nature.

Not necessarily saying that that's a hundred percent sure.

I would actually say that we have that capacity within us.

I know you believe that but that would deny what God says about himself.

He says I'm the first the last besides me.

There is no God the standard you don't believe.

You don't believe he's the first or last.

I.

Don't believe that.

The standard.

Where's that word standard?

That's the way I have to.

I'm sorry.

That's.

How about that makes sense.

How about if you read it just from Isaiah 40 through 40?

How do you know that the Bible go back to that?

Well, I'll start them.

We can do a number of ways to.

To start the one time I talked to your guys from the cultish he said I need to

Recognize that the impossibility to the contrary.

Well, I would say if you want and I definitely know that you have to start from a starting point of there being a Transcendent log.

You got that.

Absolutely.

I have to be a transcendent good good because otherwise we're just in that evolutionary thing.

There's we're just muck that do came out.

That's right.

You got it.

But at the same time Why is it when I listen to you guys?

You guys talk to atheists a lot and I've watched a lot of your guys.

Why do you guys drop your Calvinism?

I.

Have I have never heard you guys talk to an atheist and tell him.

Hey, we're all Predestined.

People have already been predestined to be chosen to live or die.

Outside of anything.

You know, you know what you need to do.

I'm misrepresenting that you're misrepresenting it.

Yeah, right.

You really doesn't make any sense.

Yeah, you're but here's the thing.

It's into you you demonstrate that you demonstrate not logical.

What you just said Wasn't what the Bible teaches or reformed theologians have ever taught.

So when you say that doesn't make sense I'm over here with you kicking it as well going goodness.

Let's let's beat this thing down when you beat up a straw man.

It isn't impressive.

Okay, so when you when you ask it when you ask reforms, so when you're talking about Orthodox, let me finish the thought because you

did your thing, right?

Okay, so when you ask reformed biblical Orthodox Christians, how come you just dropped your view of God's

sovereignty when you talk to the atheist?

I would say never did.

It's the gospel that is the power or can't.

Calvinistically because that's the way God you just chose you to do you use.

You try to use one of the arguments we use As a good doesn't apply to us.

It totally no, it doesn't because we don't hold the atheistic perspective you but you we don't believe.

We're bags of biological stuff where there's nothing transcendent.

You don't believe everything about you that you are has been predetermined to.

Follow it.

Hi.

Yeah, let me say to you this way.

Yes.

I agree with the scriptures that God is absolutely sovereign like he says he.

Okay, you may deny it.

He's sovereign over sin.

You may deny it.

Well, and this is what I was asking in the beginning and then you you got off of it.

I'm sorry when I asked you because this might be a good helpful point for you.

And again, I'm not trying to be abusive to you.

I'm trying to help you see that Alma.

You can't beat up a straw man and reform theology.

I don't think we're getting anywhere.

I think I'm.

Because you guys start off at this point and then you say but we don't actually go that way if you start off with Three

deaths.

I believe that God is sovereign.

God is sovereignly decreed everything we do.

Yeah, he did create everything that we are.

Determined.

He determined.

In his eternal infinite wisdom.

He determines the end from the beginning, right?

Everything.

However, however.

He also made creatures like you and me who have a will right.

And we are making choices.

God.

God is not making choices for us.

He's not saying to us you be bad.

You are doing what you want to do, right?

So I do it earlier.

Who caused us to do what we don't want to do.

So you're gonna ask the question first and foremost, what point of time are you talking about pre

fall ever or post fall?

Okay.

So in the fall according to the book of Ecclesiastes when God created man He created him upright, but

he sought out many devices.

So when we fell we fell in Adam.

Romans 5 death spread to all of us.

All of us are dead in Adam.

So God predestined Adam to fall or was that just wait?

Are you saying you don't know?

I'm just asking.

I'm asking you.

If we just can agree do you agree with this.

I believe that the fall is absolutely necessary.

Do you believe that Jesus Christ is a lamb slain before the foundation of the world.

Yeah, he chose that yes because it was a necessary it was determined that he was gonna die as the lamb of God

before the world began.

Could he have chosen different?

The Bible teaches very clearly that God determines the shape of history.

He declares the end from the beginning all the good and the bad.

So when it says well, this is what I was trying to get you to real fast because you keep springing off.

I'm just.

I'm gonna say that here's the thing your eyes and your

heart need to be opened to the biblical God who can do that first.

Only God only God.

This moment for you is either God graciously moving in your life to give you truth to open your eyes to the

truth or it is God judging you.

This moment before with you receiving this much truth is either an act of God's grace to open your eyes

Or it is God allowing you to have your sin.

So here's here's what he predetermined whether or not I would.

Oh.

He knows his plan.

He's already pretty this isn't a surprise that it falls right back into.

Are you doing with you?

What you know, he said.

I'm gonna go.

No, it doesn't because you're doing what you want.

You know what you just said, right?

I do what I want.

I'll prove it to you.

You know what you said you said.

Something about arguing and this is so much fun arguing this fun.

You're enjoying yourself.

I agree.

You're doing what you want.

Okay, I'm doing what I'm enjoying my son.

I'm taking you guys.

I like that God caused me to be that the Bible teaches that God had nothing to do with.

Whether or not he's gonna allow you to love your sin or hate your sin

if he allows you to love your sin.

It's an act of judgment righteous.

Then why doesn't God just do that for all men.

Because he if we're all equally hold on hold on.

You don't believe that Alma.

You do not.

I'm not saying that.

I don't believe.

Argument that you just tried to use against God.

You do not.

I'll show it to you.

Ready?

If I know God is not a tyrant.

Alma if you and I walk into a courthouse Together and we sat in the seats

From 7 a .m. To 10 p .m. Or whatever time they closed and we watched all the court cases of

robbers rapists murderers child molesters.

You would not stand up after every single time.

They were gonna give a verdict and you would not say your honor.

Why don't you just let them all go?

Why not?

Are you serious?

According to your guys.

No, I am NOT taking this for me, I don't believe.

Alma if we rewind this tape here You're gonna see that you just

tried to use an argument.

You just tried to use an argument for yourself as a positive.

I'm not arguing for myself.

I'm checking for your guys.

No, that's not my perspective from your guys's theology.

No, no, that's not what you teach because I'm gonna stop for a second.

Okay, because you're forgetting where you were.

You were using the argument about God and his sovereignty.

Why doesn't he just give his grace to everyone?

Let him all go.

I said you don't believe that don't believe it.

Thank you.

You know what you hold.

You hold to essentially a reformed perspective of justice in the courts here.

Because when you go to the court here, do you stand before judges and you go?

I don't believe they should hold on three because they had that free will.

And able to that act they did what they wanted outside of that hold on but who caused them to add.

Let me finish the thoughts right?

We're talking about human court analogy right now, right?

Okay, so we're there and I've been in court I understand how so send me to human court analogy.

You're in a court of law and you and I both agree that that judges can't just be letting People go like flowers out of

a hat.

I'm in right because we you and I believe follows a standard justice, right?

Now what's this what is every criminal that goes in that court that is truly guilty truly guilty.

What do they all deserve mercy grace or justice?

Justice now watch does the does the judge have the right at times

to say I Choose to let you go say that for example, there's a

Hold on does the judge have the right to say I choose to remove the fine.

I'll let the fine go.

True right, but it's possible.

The judge can say I'll give some great outside of what it says.

But he can say he can say I'll give you grace on this particular thing.

Like have you guys seen on a Facebook?

What's the name of the guy comes on Facebook all the time?

It's like the judge in Providence.

It's like a judge in Providence.

He's like the sweetest old judge people come in.

Oh, yeah, and they're really guilty at times.

They're like, yeah, I really was speeding but then he'll he'll hear them and they'll say You know what?

I'll give you grace like I'll take away the fine or the fee and if the law states it.

But it's within his it's within his wheelhouse to say I'll give you grace.

Now watch this all of us hold to a perspective.

Standard did God use to get to that.

So it's a real bad.

You are saved.

So real fast real fast.

So the issue of all of mankind being sinful.

Do you agree with that?

They have the capacity.

Hold on.

Do you believe what the Bible says.

All have we all have fallen short and fall short of the Lord of God.

So we're in agreement.

This doesn't have to be all debate.

We could be like

Don't forget what you're saying, right.

Because I don't want us to get.

I don't want us to lose this.

This is where I keep miss so all you because you're asking the question about God's Sovereignty and his graciousness,

but listen, I'm trying to tell you is this we already agree.

But a judge has to give what?

Justice.

But he has the watch he has the freedom if he desires.

To give grace at times now you hold to a reformed perspective of the

human courts.

But you all of a sudden when you get to God you abandon that.

So when God I'm going on to give grace I'm going off of my understanding thing.

Alma Alma Alma.

Here's the thing.

It's not it's.

What is it Alma Alma?

Yeah, it's.

I'm gonna show say right.

I don't want to.

I don't want to.

It's not surprising that God gives justice to any of us.

That's what he owes us.

Agree.

It's surprising that he gives grace to even one of us.

Okay, why?

That's the nature of grace if God is the cause of us falling because he created.

Wait.

How is he not when you say that?

How is he not when you say the cause of us falling.

He Determined everything to happen.

It's already predetermined.

So let's start at the beginning.

So how do we do anything?

That's not already predetermined.

This might this might help.

Okay, God created Adam our representative in the garden.

Oh, that's why that's why I said I create him upright, but he sought out many devices.

God didn't go to Adam and say Adam.

What does this be bad?

Where's that?

What it's not how many the asses?

Okay, I was like I just barely read through that whole garden.

Yeah.

So the Bible says that that God created man upright and sought out many devices.

So Adam wasn't created.

In a state of righteousness.

He was in a period of testing in term.

He hadn't like been completed his righteousness because he had to obey God, but he also hadn't sinned.

So he was upright, but he sought out many devices.

So he fell when he saw the fruits and it looked desirable to him.

So he took it.

God put that temptation did what he wanted.

He did what he wanted.

No, no, listen.

Well, who caused him to walk Alma Alma?

Hang on not God.

God didn't say you be bad.

You be bad.

Who says it was bad though.

Who says it wasn't?

Would we even be here at all if there wasn't a fall?

Well, here's I'm saying actually the fact that there was a fall and the Redeemer Came into the world to

save his people from their sins is to the glory of God.

So we are in the world and experience that brings most glory to God in his justice and

his grace.

So it was necessary for him to fall.

Necessary was it necessary determined determined would fall.

Okay, so he couldn't Know.

There's no way that we wouldn't be in this state.

God knows God Knows.

But he doesn't learn the future.

So your God learns the future your God has to.

I got constantly learning because that's the only way he can actually love somebody.

Yeah, they got a Bible teaches.

That's a false.

God the idea that God learns something.

It says Bible in the Bible.

Let's go back known to get me quote.

It's true known to God from all eternity are all.

All that work all that all those wordings.

Are absolutely from you notice what happened there whenever you're given scripture or biblical concepts.

There are a few your position you go back to chestnut arguments.

Like well, I don't even know the Bible.

Well, yeah, I agree.

How do you for a minute there?

You were appealing to the Bible as though it were true.

Phone.

It works against you.

There are certain parts in the Bible that contradict you and and and when you say contradict themselves.

Meaning when they contradict your perspective faith faith without works is dead.

Uh -huh, right, right.

So, how do you have faith to be saved apart from works?

So, okay, you can say that that's that's cherry -picking these two things.

No, no answer.

Okay, go ahead.

Okay, so Paul and James.

Into different things, right?

Well completely and it's provable just by looking at the text at what point in Abraham's life is Paul

in when he's doing Romans Chapter 4.

Do you know and this is not a test.

I'm asking I'm legitimately asking.

Do you know a part of it of Abraham's life?

He was pointing to in Romans 4 I mean this to genuinely probably genuinely pretty sure that was when he was

about to sacrifice Isaac.

Well, he says Before Abraham, I'm sorry Abraham believed God and it

was credited to him as righteousness, right?

Now that was that was long before Isaac was offered on the altar.

Okay, Abraham believed God spit on you.

Sorry.

Abraham believed God good and it was credited him as righteousness.

Now that was long before Isaac.

That was long before Isaac was sacrificed in the altar.

Okay.

But then you go to James chapter 2 and it's wisdom literature.

Completely different kind of writing style and James is appealing to a different part of Abraham's life.

He's referring to the part of Abraham's life where he offered Isaac on the altar.

So Abra sorry Paul and James aren't even talking about the same thing.

Because he already had faith first and then that works he was already justified.

But then he says this how do you and I know that Abraham's faith was alive that it was

real and not dead.

By the fact that he offered his son on the altar.

So the question for that.

So here's the question.

So James, yeah, I think you're exactly the right way.

James chapter 2 is not about how a person is saved.

Whether it's my faith alone or faith and works.

James isn't even having that conversation.

It's literally not his conversation.

His question is can living faith or dead faith save which one?

There's no such thing as dead.

I agree.

That's the argument.

What's the only thing that saves faith?

Right, but if you have faith apart from your works you don't actually have faith anyway.

If there are no works, why don't works go together, they're not separate.

There are no works.

There is no faith.

There was no faith.

So what is that?

But according according to Paul and James, what's the only thing

that saves and justifies?

Faith alone.

Now the only way you and I know whether you had no works you had no faith.

Well, then never the only way.

Yes.

The worst is that motivating.

You wouldn't even do or say you didn't have.

Thank you.

So but here's the thing watch the Bible teaches in Romans 4 just read it and don't read it with me hanging over.

Your shoulder literally go read it and it's Paul's whole argument is this is the law can justify

nobody.

He says in Romans 3 by the works of the law.

No flesh no flesh will be justified in his sight for through the law comes the knowledge of sin.

But then he moves on to say what about our father Abraham?

He says Abraham believed God of his credit in him as righteousness.

He says to the one who's working.

He says his faith is not credited as a gift But as what is due.

In other words, you're working for something you get a wage not a gift.

Okay, well, let me finish the thought and you can answer definitely let you answer.

He says.

And when he's talking about this faith in Romans chapter 4 He says to the one who works his wages and credit as a gift for

what is due.

But to the one who does not work but believes in him.

Justifies the ungodly.

His faith is credited as righteousness.

You were on a good point.

No work.

Hold on.

You were on a good point a second ago.

You were like, yeah, but you have to have faith.

But if it's real faith, there will be works agreed.

But watch what God says in the text.

He doesn't say he justifies righteous people who have good works.

He justifies the ungodly.

Right, but they all go hand -in -hand because on you're not letting it.

You don't have the works that you have not the faith and you can never be justified by the faith.

Oh, hold on.

No, no.

The faith is faith alone and are.

And to prove it to you is why I said the Alma.

Listen.

Don't make this about me hanging on your shoulder.

Don't make this a bit of the camera right now.

Go read it.

Romans.

Good go read Romans 3 and 4 and just sit there and let it speak.

Not Jeff.

Not some other anybody.

Just let the text be.

He justifies the ungodly and it says this.

How about David.

How did it happen with David?

I said God credit to him righteousness apart from works and

then it says Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven whose sins have been covered.

Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not count his sin.

So through faith in Jesus We get a righteousness apart from any works and we also have

all of our sins washed away and it's through faith.

Like Abraham's what did Abraham offer God?

Not a thing.

So there was no reason for him to authorize it.

No.

Hold on remember I told you that's why I specifically said that to you.

There are two points in Abraham's life right that are used and Paul's or before he was

Offered Isaac and then about 20 years.

And then Isaac is 20 years later in James, so what did Abraham offer

God in Genesis 15 6.

What did he do?

Nothing.

Alma.

That's the point.

But he believed he had those works going for he was teaching.

He was doing something.

He was believed.

How do you believe in God without doing any.

Man's passive didn't say that he didn't do anything in his life.

But when he had those good works in the faith going hell he was justified.

Through faith proof.

You've read the story.

You know, okay.

Do you remember the scene where the whole context of Abraham believed God?

It was credited him as righteousness.

What did God do to make a covenant with Abraham?

Do you remember?

Not a test.

I'm just saying do you remember what he did?

Well, he promised.

The sentence in Stars.

Do you remember you were the covenant that he made with him?

No.

Remember he did how it says that he took the animals because they had a tradition a custom where they would take animals they would Cut their

bodies in half and you had to hold like hands actually holding Up here.

We're close up there and it was to show like like Your your deepest level

of commitments like and you would even walk through They the cut animals and it was

basically a symbol to us together as we make a promise to each other.

Let what happened to these animals happen to me if I break this covenant with you.

But two men I understand two men had to walk through it together.

They would even shake up really high to be like you sure like I'm sure about that like get your way up there.

So they have these customs.

We know it's amazing as God meets Abraham and that custom and he has the animal parts torn.

But then what's he do with Abraham?

He makes him go to sleep and who walks through the animals God did by himself and

swore Only by himself that he would keep this covenant with Abraham.

So what did Abraham do to be a part of that covenant?

What did he do?

He was passive.

He was asleep.

So God brings Abraham into this covenant makes promises to him and what's Abraham's part of that covenant.

What is it?

He's asleep.

He's got nothing.

Well, that was that was God making a covenant to him.

And that's.

Are you part of the Abrahamic covenant and blessing?

Yes, you you daggone better be.

If you're a part of Romans 3 and 4 you had better be.

My point is that I'm still having issues With it.

It's just if God already predetermined everything to happen.

Yeah, I know we have to go back to previous.

No, it's fine.

I'm with you.

I'm with destination is right.

That is this is where I.

Listen would you read a book if I gave you a book on it?

Yes, you promise?

Yes.

Yeah, I will do this.

You have an audio version.

I'll get.

That would be the best way.

I mean to my favorite.

But I'll buy you a book so you can least understand.

It'll take you through the text from the Bible and then it'll have at least a solid simple

Explanation so that you and I aren't chasing down trails going.

No, that's not what we're saying and you'll you'll have a better understanding.

Will you will you.

I'll buy it for you will you do that?

Okay, so we'll make sure before you leave today I'll get your address.

It's called the reformed doctrine of predestination by Lorraine Bettner, I'll buy that for you.

Let me buy it for you as a gift I haven't seen about two days or so.

And that'll at least run you through the text and scripture from Genesis Revelation.

You can work through them.

You can listen to the arguments you can agree or disagree, but at least you'll see what we're actually saying.

No, yeah, I I want to understand what here's my one challenge because I'm completely lost everything I've watched from you guys.

I don't know if you haven't explained it, right or if it's just been an appeal to a mystery or whoever you were talking to.

No, and it's like okay, but my problem is well, you can go back to it.

Okay, where I am now stated and let me answer this is where I am right now.

Okay, if God Predestined everything to happen the way it happened.

This was like when I was listening to you guys talk to quake it with.

Even Jesus Christ he got to choose whether or not he would be sacrificed or not.

Jesus is God that was his free will and choice.

And real fast.

We gotta stop here real fast.

I don't believe that in your version of Jesus who is a creature created by another God with a

free will.

I believe in Jesus as the eternal God.

Who is the God.

Just go off of your okay.

Okay, make sure that we understand that.

But then I heard you know.

This is what I listen to James Ryan.

He said that yeah, he said that it was worse that Christ died Than the little girl who

was raped and murdered in in Houston.

Okay, but the problem is She never had a choice.

She was predestined according to the way.

I understand.

It's just going off the way.

I understand her.

I'm not trying to make a straw man.

I'm with it.

I'm with it.

She was predestined to be raped murdered Die cast off and dead out at our herbs

it held burned for all eternity because she wasn't a Christian.

She couldn't have except for God.

Okay, right.

Okay pause there.

I don't want I don't want to do too much Point by point.

Yeah, I want you to keep going.

But let's do point by point first and foremost the Bible says God determines the end from the beginning.

Right, okay, and I'm giving you that one simple verse I can give you 50 more that are as descriptive as that.

But he determines the end from the beginning right and I believe that but watch watch where you're stuck Alma.

You haven't helped.

You haven't helped you haven't helped you haven't helped the situation because watch when I say I believe yes

in this fallen wicked Evil world where we all sin against each other.

We all hurt each other.

We all violate each other.

Yes, God is sovereign in that fallen sinful world as to what he allows sinful

preachers to do them to others.

But that God my God the sovereign God he causes all Things to

work together for good for those who love him and those who are called according to his purpose Known to God are

all his works from all eternity.

Now, that's my God.

I just let me finish the thought and I'll let you talk.

I promise.

Okay, that's my God known to God.

Are all his works from all eternity?

Everything he's gonna do including the murder of Jesus, but I'm gonna think about this real fast.

Okay, you haven't helped the situation because in your version God is

always learning.

He doesn't know what's gonna happen and there are criminal rapists raping little girls

and God's going.

Sorry, I didn't know or I couldn't do anything about it.

Your God isn't even worthy of worship.

I.

Would dip totally.

You believe that a God is I believe it impotent who doesn't know who learns.

I've already heard that who's trying to figure things.

See what the thing is, but don't you believe he's impotent.

This is my my point.

This is my point.

I'm gonna let you get to it.

Okay, go ahead.

Finish it.

Help me.

Help me stay on this point.

You do believe his impotence because you don't believe he could do anything to stop it.

You could have done something to stop it.

He's not a tyrant, but he won't he can't he won't stop man acting on his free

will he on his will.

So he's got Sammy so ready he can't your God is he's a tiny.

Okay, but you're saying that your God is your God could have done it.

But he just chose not to do it.

God in this world.

Here's the thing according to the Bible.

God is holy.

Right.

He is holy.

He is the standard of all righteousness and this world is fallen.

He's not falling.

It's falling.

And in this fallen wicked evil world people sin and violate one another.

And yes, I believe in the sovereign God who determines what evil he allows in this world

and what evil he will not allow.

Like, you know, you're forgetting, you know, you're forgetting you're forgetting about this.

You're forgetting about all the things that God is constantly restraining the hearts of the evil of men

in.

But he's the one to predetermine them to be that.

No, no, no God didn't predetermine their nature.

This might help.

I think I found it.

Yes, maybe that maybe this is determined the nature.

Hold on.

There you go.

Determine our fallen nature.

He predetermined us to be with you.

Yes God there for.

God free does he not the other.

God predestined that man would fall into sin, right?

Now that doesn't mean however that God is behind you with a gun saying you're gonna be bad

today.

You and I are fallen creatures before Christ.

You and I are fallen creatures before Christ and you do what is according to your nature to want

to do so for example.

Okay, ready?

Let's take us out of the equation.

Let's do that again.

You got you got a room.

Okay, and in this room, you've got a pile of meat and a pile of carrots.

We're talking about nature now in decisions.

The rabbit and the vulture.

You got it, right?

Yeah.

So so good.

Like I said, I've watched all your video.

Good.

So I want you to think through it in our thing you said and I've gone through this and respond to it.

Now when you get the rabbit that nature hold on when you send the vulture into the room.

What is the nature of the vulture?

What does it want by its nature?

Wants to meet right.

And you put the key for the rabbit in there because of the nature of the rabbit.

It wants the carrots, right?

So in the same thing for a fallen simple human being you put them in a world where they're fallen rebellious creatures

hostile towards God.

What will they choose?

Freely.

Their sin, they're freely choosing they're.

What's the necessity for God creating us sinful on if he's an all -powerful back.

Why are you gonna bring us that have to go back to the beginning?

Here's here my answer to you.

Because he gave us freedom.

Why and why did God create in the way that he did and why did God?

I talked to Jess when you guys are down in Arizona already.

All right, and then I talked to Christian over there.

He said you guys are over here.

So I just want to come say hi.

No, no, no, I give us very specific I didn't say it was arbitrary.

So you're saying that he didn't have any other way.

That was the way I said for his.

Glory, and I'll show you how ready God's gonna be glorified.

Alma and I hope and pray with all my heart that you both We're standing together

before the Lord redeemed and saved.

On this day God will have a day where he is glorified in the end In his

grace through the people that he saved when they didn't deserve it.

And he'll be glorified and he'll be glorified on the last day in his justice When he

gives to people what they wanted all along and that's eternity without him.

God.

That's true there will but they can chase me they choose it to be apart from him.

This is okay.

Thank you again.

You're a form theologian.

Oh, yeah.

Again.

Again, this is my getting closer this.

Okay I'm I'm still missing the part where you guys because this is what I've heard over and over and over again.

Okay, if God had predestined everyone to choose.

To be.

Evil sinful things and he chose and everything they do has already been predestined.

Every sin you commit every Impure thought that you ever have.

Yes.

God knows it.

Not only knows it he caused here real fast real fast when we talk about God my God.

Okay, so I'll just do two points here, okay one how does he remove himself when you're getting

there.

Seriously you're getting this.

So when you talk about God knowing we don't mean like Mormons mean and I don't mean this offensive I'm not trying to jab

at you.

We don't mean like Mormons mean like God knows the future because he learned about it.

Or look through time to figure it out.

When we say that God knows We mean that God not that he learned but that he

determined the shape, right?

But I'll give you a deal if you're like, but Jeff what does that mean in the context of like a sin or something?

I would say I can bring you to a number of places.

I would point you to two so I don't make it.

I don't overwhelm you with like a bunch of texts.

Just two and that would be Genesis chapter 50 well, actually.

That whole section there of Joseph with Joseph and in Egypt just read from the beginning of that

section to the end.

But I would point God caused God caught or you've caused or meant it for evil.

But I meant it for righteousness or God meant it for right.

To one example.

Yeah, cuz think about real fast.

What happened.

Just go there.

I don't want to belabor this but just just please just bear with me for to think about what happened.

This story I'm passionate about.

I used to be a pasty for I know this in a drug rehab hospital.

Yes, and so I used to like I said, I've watched.

Oh, yeah much everyone.

I used to love to share the story with them because I it was a lot.

I was trying to show them in terms of.

You might think you're here now and it's awful how you got here, but God.

If you're in Christ God meant it for good.

That's all all of the wickedness all the evil that he allowed.

He meant it for good.

God uses even the wickedness and the righteousness for his just.

So we're done.

But.

You used it, okay, he allowed it to bring forth his

righteous.

Thank you.

When somebody does something evil. Thank you.

That teaches me.

Guess what?

Not Calvin.

You just helped to describe that's that's reform when we talk about God.

How he knows the future determines the future.

He causes all things to work together.

For good, even the evil sinful actions of men, but watch this he is not responsible.

How.

Well here's here's exactly on.

I try to give you the two passages, right?

Let me.

What happened to Genesis his brothers it said that they hated him.

They never had anything nice to say about it, right and then whenever he's coming to them now dad's like go help your brothers.

He's coming.

They're like, oh look here comes this dreamer like they're just mocking him, right?

So they grab him they throw him into a pit and then they sell him into slavery.

They hate Joseph.

Yeah, no me too crazy.

Okay, so it says that they had never had a nice day about him.

They hated their brother.

So now he goes into slavery to Egypt they go what they do now.

They're like an animal.

So now what happened he's broken and he's weeping he's wailing they're causing

all this pain.

They are they wanted to do it, right?

But now he goes in the pot of her sows.

What happens there?

She's like got the hots for him and she tries to sleep with him.

He does the right thing by running away and she says he tried to rape me.

So what she's guilty of lying Injustice.

So now watch this at the end of that thing.

He says to his brothers when they show up and now he's like Prince over Egypt.

He says to them and you know the story he says evil, but God meant it he says.

You did not send me here God.

Now wait, hold on if you think about it.

Hmm.

How.

Because actually.

No actually y 'all had something to do with that.

You did but.

But how Joseph says it is it actually.

Ultimately, it was God who sent me here.

For what purpose.

To preserve for you a remnant many people alive.

Right.

So what was God's purpose and allowing Joseph's brothers to be as wicked as they were?

Because God there we go.

An ultimate purpose.

He determines whether or not he was gonna let them be wicked to their brother Joseph for his greater purpose.

Glory, so go back though.

Just a second.

Just just hypothetically.

Hypothetically.

If Joseph's brothers had not done that evil act would the same thing have happened?

No.

It wouldn't happen at all.

There's no way that God could have done it.

And God shows that he already showed to bring about so he shows that those they would be wicked.

He wouldn't he would he didn't he didn't make them what he caused.

They were Fallen.

They were fallen creatures who wanted Wanted to be wicked.

You don't have to ask a rabbit to want to be a rabbit.

Yes, but now we're talking about what happens if a rabbit eats meat real fast.

We're talking now.

We're now we're talking about sin.

That's that's why I think now we're saying the rabbit and the and the vulture.

What happens to a rabbit if it eats meat.

Well, you're you're you're pushing the analogy a little too far.

The point is is yeah all we're talking All we I say it only goes so far.

That's right.

The point is talking about nature by nature.

What you want to do.

What do you desire now.

Fallen creatures desire sin?

They're gonna want their sin.

They're gonna want their rebellion.

Okay, so I'm fine.

Yeah, so God caused us to fall for his glory.

God determined to allow Adam and Eve to have their sin different than

predetermined.

He didn't predetermine it if he allowed that because they could.

Oh, no, he was in charge of it.

Shows different.

No, he was in charge.

He was in charge and when you say caused it's the only way not logically.

We're not we're not saying we're not saying by cause that God again was putting a gun to

Adams face saying be bad.

Adams going and Adams watch and watch this and Adams going.

No, I don't wanna I don't wanna and God's causing him to do it.

He did what he wanted to do and God determined.

Exactly that plan of history for his glory.

Another example is the murder of Jesus.

You know the story Pontius Pilate.

Is it gather in this city against your holy servant Jesus was?

Pontius Pilate Herod the peoples of Israel and the Gentiles to do whatever your hand predestined to occur.

For ordained so hold on he had that choice before so hold on what was for ordained by

God to do to Jesus.

How.

Tell me how to describe it.

Yeah, we have to talk about it because it's not gonna make any sense.

Don't talk about it.

He was.

Once he was he was.

Beaten with the reed and he was whipped with the cat and I tells and he had the thorns pressed into his

head.

And he had his clothes.

Organs exposed.

Beaten shamed.

What else happened in the court?

They lied about him in court, right?

And they are the pilot says I find no fault in him and washes his hands of it.

Everyone says give us the murder or not him.

So what is that wicked?

It's all wicked.

They're lying in court.

They're taking an innocent man, you know, but what does it say they?

Did all these things but it was God's Predestined plan that they would he

predestined the murder of Jesus.

Okay, but I'll say this.

Hold on.

So yes certain individuals, but did it have to be exactly those in the hold on.

Just got it.

Alma you got it.

You got to take a take a step back now first.

You were arguing that no, it's not possible for God to predestine evil things, but now oh, no.

Not that it's not possible that he doesn't way that he can be apart from the author of that

sin.

How about that ready?

We already agreed that he did it with the murder of Jesus.

Okay.

This is something I wanted this is something I wanted to say.

I want to answer that.

This is something I wanted to say when we talked when you talked about that to quake you and you said and James White said.

It was worse that Christ died.

What did Christ receive after he died?

He rose from the dead on the third day.

And he's seated on the right hand of God in throne with power, right?

So he received.

Amazing.

He didn't lose anything by dying by that sacrifice.

It wasn't really a sacrifice of loss.

He gained weight.

He might have given up something temporarily, but hang on hang on Alma.

We have a little girl you and I have a different murdered and you and I have a different much different perspective of the crucifixion.

The Bible talks about God's wrath.

God's judgment poured out and fully absorbed into Jesus on the cross.

When you talk about like no big deal, he just died then rose again.

Jesus received the wrath of the father.

Ultimate I'm not talking about.

Oh, yes.

Dying on.

I'm not understanding your point.

Okay, this is what I'm saying when I was when I'm listening to James White when he's saying that that it was

worse.

That Christ dying on the cross was worse than what that little girl went through.

Who received the worst outcome.

That little girl according to she wasn't a Christian?

She was a Hindu or whatever.

She was raped murdered and now because she wasn't a Christian.

She didn't have that thing.

She's cast into hell.

Christ died.

Beaten all those things by his ultimate.

Reward.

He gained he didn't lose she lost and it had nothing to do with her.

It had to do with God predestined her wrong to be.

There's where you're incorrect.

When you talk about people going to hell right according to the Bible nobody innocent goes to

hell.

Right.

Nobody but who caused them to hold on.

No, no, no way you got it.

You got to go from what we agree upon the Bible teaches nobody goes to hell who's innocent.

You.