Evangelizing Mormons at the Doorstep

British? Do I sound British to you?

Morning, how's it going?

Morning, how are you?

Good, good.

What's good to do? We're just talking to the missionaries in the area.

Yeah.

And we're going to talk to people about Jesus Christ.

Okay.

I'm Carlos.

Good to meet you.

Carlos, good to meet you.

Good to meet you.

Opening Conversation with the Mormon Missionaries

We're talking to people about how we can grow closer to Him and grow our faith in Him. We're learning about a modern day prophet. Is that something you guys are interested in though?

You guys are Mormon?

No, we're from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Mormon was the nickname that we were given.

Long time ago.

Yeah.

So what do you believe? How do you get right with God?

Believe in Jesus Christ, repent of your sins.

Okay.

There's a scripture that says, Whoso repenteth, the same is forgiven.

Okay.

And who is Jesus?

Son of God, creator of the world.

Is He the only God?

Yeah.

I mean, you have God the Father. Jesus Christ Himself testifies of Him.

Mm-hmm.

Right?

Yeah.

And you have the Son, Jesus Christ.

Okay.

Yeah, because I know you all have the Book of Mormon, but there's also the Doctrine and Covenants and the...

Father of the Great Price.

Father of the Great Price, right?

Yeah.

Because in there, there's a lot of other stuff that would sort of negate what you just told me.

Oh, so?

About Jesus Christ being the only God. According to these things that you all say,.

That are in the other books,.

He's the only God of this planet.

Right?

And so that there's other planets. In fact, if you're a good Mormon, you die and you become a God of your own planet.

Right?

Not necessarily your own planet.

Well...

Per se.

What is it called?

A world.

And you populate it perpetually with your polygamous wives and stuff?

Not quite.

Yeah, that is what it says, though.

What it says is that just like the Scriptures tell us in the New Testament, we can become joint heirs with Christ.

Yeah.

Right? What does that mean?

But Jesus said that in Heaven, there's no giving and marriage. We're like the angels.

Right?

So there's no procreation in Heaven.

Right?

There's no sealing. We believe there's a... He didn't say they were sealed, right? That was with a woman who married multiple men.

Right?

It was for a very specific circumstance. Right? He was answering a question.

Right.

No, but He was stating a principle, right? That in marriage, there is no Heaven because there's only one marriage. It's Christ, the bridegroom. And the church, the bride. That's the only marriage that there is in Heaven.

And we believe that the power that was given to Peter, to seal that which is on Earth in Heaven, to seal that which is in Heaven on Earth, exists on the Earth today. So it can be sealed in the eternities.

So you said we're saved by repenting and believing.

Right?

Right.

So that sounds a lot like what Protestants, like what Christians would say. But what do you mean? So what do you mean by repenting and believing?

You've got to have faith in Jesus Christ, right? You've got to believe that He is the Son of God. And then you have to repent of all your sins. Try and draw closer to Him. Turn yourself towards Him.

So repenting means what exactly?

Turning towards Jesus Christ. Following after Him.

That sounds really good. I mean, but in the Mormon, there's like these Mormon articles, right? The Mormon articles of faith or religion or something like that. It says that to get right with God we have to...

Have faith. Repent. Be baptized.

Receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

There's a key phrase that you left out, right? After all we can do.

Right?

After all we can do.

So that works.

It's not just faith.

Right.

So, because the Bible says we are... Ephesians 2 says we are saved by grace through faith apart from works.

Right?

So there's a difference there between salvation... Because there's nothing we can do to earn our right standing with God.

It is only through the grace of Christ that we can improve. But don't you think God wants us to be good?

Well, of course. He says, be perfect as your heavenly Father in heaven.

Exactly.

Perfectly.

He laid out commandments.

Right.

Things he wanted us to follow.

Exactly. So, but the problem is, do we keep them?

Not perfectly, but that's why repenting is so important.

Right.

So we don't keep them and we can't ever earn a right standing with God.

That's the whole reason why Jesus said we need to die, right?

Well, no, we can't. And that's how. It's because Jesus Christ gave us the atonement.

Right?

We make mistakes every single day. Ones that we may not even be aware of.

Right?

But because of Jesus Christ's atonement, because of the grace that he has given us, we can repent and turn to him and we can find forgiveness for those things.

So, but, so are you all saying, are you saying that we're saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone? Apart from any works that we do?

If you accept Jesus Christ and repent of your sins and follow after him, you're saved.

Okay, so follow after him. That sort of sounds like after all we can do, right?

Kind of, yeah. Jesus Christ himself asked us to follow him.

Well, do you all have a Bible?

Yeah.

In John, so in John 5, 24,. John 5, 24, right? He says, he who believes in me, so he who believes in me,. John 5, 24. Verily, verily, I say unto you, he who heareth my word and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation, but is passed from death into life.

Right?

So here, Jesus is clearly saying, believing my words, you've passed from death to life. There's no other requirement apart from...

Now what is salvation?

Same thing.

We believe that there are multiple layers to that. That one can be saved from death, yeah? Absolutely, the temporal death is one of the easiest to be saved from.

So, but here he's talking about everlasting life.

Exactly.

Has everlasting life.

You can be saved from death.

Well, this is saved from damnation because it's everlasting life.

What is eternal life?

To know God.

Exactly.

So, but eternal life is, we are going to, we get to go to heaven with Christ because he has eternally forgiven us on the cross.

Right?

So, we have everlasting life by simply believing his words.

Yeah, absolutely.

Not, well, but that's...

We receive glory in his kingdom.

Right?

When we believe on his words.

So, but that's it. He doesn't say we have to work for it, we have to...

No, we agree.

We agree?

Well, but your church doesn't teach that.

No, we believe to receive exaltation in the celestial kingdom. And to return to the kingdom of God. The kingdom of Jesus Christ the Father. As he says, one must be born of water and born of the spirit.

Born of fire.

Right?

We believe that covenants are essential. That one can be...

So, but what does that mean?

One can be saved. We believe that there are multiple, there are many mansions in heaven.

But what does it mean to be born again?

What, what?

We believe to be baptized. In complete and utter symbolism, baptism, we are put under, symbolizing our death. And then we come back up, symbolizing our resurrection or being born again.

So baptism is that's required for us to be saved?

No, not saved.

Okay.

So, yeah, I mean...

Baptism is just required to be exalted and clear, as it says in John 3, 5. John 3, 5? Born of water and born of spirit. In the Lord's name, in the kingdom of God.

Born of water and spirit.

Yeah.

So, but, but water and spirit. Born of water and the spirit. This is talking about regeneration, right? It's not literally getting back. Because 1 Peter chapter 3, 20 says it's not the physical removal of dirt from the flesh.

But a renewed conscience that comes as a result of God's spirit regenerating us.

Right?

So this is pointing back to Ezekiel. It's talking about the rivers of living water represented by the spirit's work. Because the spirit is about... That's what changes us here in chapter 3.

Yeah, it's the one that sanctifies us. Without being given the gift of the Holy Ghost, baptism is almost meaningless.

Right.

So, do you all... Is Jesus the spirit brother of Lucifer?

And so are you.

Okay, so that's definitely not what the Bible says.

Right. Where?

Jesus is God. And so he has no... He has no brothers.

Why does Jesus himself say there is no other good except for his father in heaven?

Right.

When someone was giving him praise.

Right.

That was Jesus Christ himself.

Yeah, yeah, but because we're sinners.

Right.

But nowhere does the Bible say that the devil is the brother of Lucifer.

He was the son of the morning.

Yeah, okay.

An angel fallen from heaven.

He's an angel, right? But Jesus is not an angel. He's God.

Right?

What does it mean to be the son of God? What does that mean to you?

Well, John 5, 14.

Right?

Jesus kind of answers that question there. So, in John 5, 14, he says... Afterward, Jesus findeth him in the temple.

No, wait, I'm sorry.

It's 18. Yeah, the Jews sought the Moor to kill him because he not only had broken the Sabbath, but he said that God was his father, making himself equal.

Exactly.

So, Jesus is God, right?

He's not an angel.

He is a member of the Godhead.

Right.

But him and our Heavenly Father have...

The devil isn't.

No, they are not.

So, then they're not...

The devil is cast out.

So, then they're not brothers, right? Because he was an angel. So, Jesus...

Can you have a brother who does something wrong?

Well, yeah. But we're both, like, we're humans, right? An angel is not God.

Jesus was as much human as he was God. He was born of the Virgin Mary.

Right?

That was the whole point.

Was that he came to earth having the same experience as we had and didn't fall. That he was the only one who came here to be pure.

But are you saying that Jesus, I mean, married earth to the devil?

No.

Did I say that?

Well, because you're saying that he was...

I'm saying Jesus Christ...

The reason he became a man was through marriage, right?

Exactly.

He was born through Mary, the Virgin birth.

Right.

But if the devil was the brother of Jesus, then he would have...

We believe the devil doesn't have a body.

Okay.

So, well, angels, they do have bodies.

Because it says in Isaiah 14, Ezekiel 13...

A spiritual body.

28.

But not a physical body as we have.

But he was made of instruments, right? Instruments and of jewels, right?

Spirits. The spirit, right? We have... We each have a spiritual body.

Heavenly bodies, right? Because we're going to get a body in the resurrection.

Right.

We get our bodies back, perfected.

Right, perfect bodies.

It's the same body.

Right.

But...

That's why having a body is so important here. It was one of those things that needed to happen.

So then, that's one thing we would say, or at least... In terms of the big issue here with the fact... You know, there's Joseph Smith, who... He also taught, clearly, polygamy.

So did Abraham.

Well, that was the old covenant, right? Because you said the importance of the covenants matter.

The Old Testament.

So...

So what's the difference? The law is still the law.

Well, there's no... There's no laws that would endorse polygamy. There's only laws that regulate polygamy for kings in the Old Testament.

But there are several times where Abraham, not being a king, was commanded to... Or even his sons, take multiple wives.

So, you remember Jesus said, from the beginning, it was one man, one woman.

Right?

So he was correcting the abuses of the Old Testament patriarchs. Because polygamy brought on a lot of problems. And so he was saying it was meant to be, from God's design, one man, one woman.

Exactly.

So, in the new covenant, that's why there's no polygamy any longer. That's not something that we do. And, in fact, the problem in Doctrine and Covenants, chapter 132... I've read several of those parts.

So, Doctrine and Covenants, chapter 132, I think it's in verse 10 or 20, around there. It says, you have to partake of the marriage covenant of polygamy in order to be saved.

Right?

So, that's a problem.

In section 1?

Chapter 132, I think it's in sections 10 through 20, around there. And it says very clearly, you have to partake in the polygamous marriage covenant in order to be saved. So, that's why those expressions, those sayings, those teachings that are clearly at odds with Scripture...

I think that's a little out of context, sir. But our message is that there is a prophet on the earth today. That there is someone called a God. That Jesus Christ, He still calls people. But there's no reason He wouldn't.

Nowhere throughout the New Testament does He say that He is the last prophet. Because we wouldn't have half the New Testament if He was. Because the apostles wrote down Scripture. We believe that there has been a prophet called today.

Apostles and prophets. We believe that Joseph Smith was that prophet. That he was the one that was testified of in Acts 3. To bring about the restitution of all things. Before our Savior's coming.

And this is the guy that, again, stole other men's young daughters to marry. And died in battle. Because the village, the people were so furious at him for stealing his daughters. Their daughters.

How many women did Joseph Smith have? How many children did Joseph Smith have?

How many wives did he have? Four?

No, way more than four.

So, there you go.

But how many did he have children with?

But a prophet, a biblical prophet does not speak lies. He does not contradict the Word of God. How do we know a prophet is genuine?

By their works?

Well, and by what they teach, right? So, it can't contradict Scripture.

It doesn't.

Well, it does. Because he's teaching contrary to marriage. He's teaching contrary to salvation. He taught works of salvation as well. Which is why the article says we are saved after all we can do.

In the same book of Scripture it says if you repent you are forgiven.

Right.

Yeah, but repentance is, biblically speaking, the Greek is metanoia. It's a change of mind.

A change?

Repentance is the change of mind that from not believing to believing the gospel. Believing is simply understanding and agreeing that it's true. That's, biblically speaking, what repentance and faith are defined as.

Right? Be still.

That's the Greek word for faith or belief.

Yeah, but it means a change, right? A change of what you're doing.

Well, change is a regeneration.

Exactly.

Change.

So the change of mind results in a change of actions.

Right.

But that's not what saves us.

Exactly.

It's the change, the desires, right? Because sometimes our actions don't fit our desires. Sometimes we fall short. Sometimes we make mistakes.

Right.

But he still understands us. He knows us.

Yeah.

So, not to mention, I mean, you have the book of Mormon there.

Yeah.

It's the record of the people in this land.

So how many, how many, the book of Nephi, I think it is, or chapter on Nephi, where it talks about how the curse of Cain was the black race, and that being black was a curse.

It does not say that.

It does say that.

No, it says that there was a curse put upon the Lamanite people to have dark skin.

And made their skin black.

That's what it all says.

No, and Mormons did not allow black people to become members of the Mormon church.

Nope.

That is true.

Never.

That was changed.

No.

That was changed later on.

No.

They allowed it later on. There was a time, since the time of Joseph Smith, people with black skin could be baptized, could even hold the priesthood. There was a time.

Can you pass me my phone, honey?

Where African American people could not hold the priesthood. And that is not something that is unheard of, right? There are times in the Bible where we can see that certain people are taken, like, are not allowed to have the priesthood.

Yeah, but there's no priesthood anymore, right? We believe in priesthood today.

But Jesus is our high priest who ended the need for priests to offer up sacrifices.

He's the high priest. He's the only priest. That doesn't say he ended it.

In fact, the Bible says we are a royal priesthood. Those who believe are a royal priesthood. There's no opposite of priests.

It's speaking to a specific people there. I'd like to keep that in mind.

Peter, right?

It's talking about believers.

It's talking about the baptized members of the church. We believe that there was a church established in the New Testament. And that it was given leadership, apostles and prophets. And we believe the same to be today.

And now we are looking for those who are humble and not hard-hearted, who want to hear this message, who are looking for truth, who truly want to know this. And if that is not you at this time, that's all right.

We wish the best of luck for you.

The Mormon Articles of Faith and Salvation by Grace

So, Mormon, the article of faith 3, that's the one I was referring to. We believe that through the atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.

What are the laws and ordinances of the gospel?

That's clearly at odds.

What is the laws and ordinances of the gospel?

What is it?

Read them. They're right there. Faith. Repentance. Baptism. Receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost and enduring to the end.

Enduring to the end. So that's...

Continue having faith.

Christ said to believe.

Did he say... You can believe once and then...

But it says, after all we can do. Right? After all we can do.

Exactly.

This is the... Okay, this was the Doctrine and Covenants 131. No, it's 131. In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees, and in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into the sword of the priesthood, meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage.

And if he does not, he cannot obtain it. He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom. He cannot have an increase. So, I have a question. Doctrine and Covenants 132. Go ye therefore and do the works of Abraham, enter ye into my law, and you shall be saved.

So, that's works.

Enter into the covenants. I have a question for you. What church is true? Because we can see, in the New Testament, Christ established a church.

Amen. Right?

He established his one. Which one has that same authority that he had given? Because authority is important. You can't throw away the whole Old Testament or the whole New Testament because you say authority doesn't matter.

No, no, no, no. I'm not saying the Old Testament. I'm quoting Hebrews 8. Right? Hebrews 8, 13.

It says the law is fulfilled.

No, no. It says Hebrews 8, right? So, Hebrews chapter 8. It says that the old covenant is obsolete and done away with. Right? So...

And in Thessalonians, it says that the church of Christ is built upon prophets and apostles.

Sure. But it says here...

No. Why just sure to that? Isn't that important?

No, no, no. But here... In that he saith a new covenant he hath made the first bold. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. So the old covenant is obsolete. It's done away with.

The old covenant is done. That's the new covenant.

What is the new covenant?

It's the new covenant in Christ.

What is that?

It's the new covenant.

Can you give me a definition?

It's the new covenant.

How does one enter into that covenant? Because there was a way to enter into the covenant in the Old Testament.

It's purely by repentance and faith.

Absolutely.

But you asked a question about the true church, right?

Where is the true church?

The marks of a true church... There's a three-fold historically defined marks of the true church. A true church preaches and teaches and believes the biblical gospel, the word of God faithfully. It administers the sacraments of baptism and the Lord's supper rightly.

And it administers, by extension, church discipline for errant church members.

We do all of that.

But the problem is you have the Book of Mormon, you have the Doctrine and Covenants...

What's wrong with the Book of Mormon?

It contradicts the scripture.

What?

It contradicts the scripture. We talked about a lot of them already.

What?

Where does the Book of Mormon contradict the Bible?

So, here. Well, the one that I quoted to you... Let's see. So, racism. Let's see. God shows no partiality. There's no Jew nor Gentile in Christ.

So...

To quote the Book of Mormon...

Jacob 3.

All are the like unto God. All are called to come unto Him. Black, white, bond, or free.

No, but... So, Jacob 3. The Lamanites, which are not filthy like unto you, nevertheless they are cursed with a sore cursing, whom ye hate because of their filthiness and cursing which hath come upon their skins, are more righteous than you, O my brethren.

I fear that unless ye all repent of your sins and their skins will be whiter than yours, and ye shall be brought with them before the throne of God. So, it's saying dark skin is a curse. And that's why the church had prevented black people from joining the Mormon church.

Historically.

That didn't happen. That is a lie.

No, that's true.

No, it didn't.

There was a proclamation given by one of your prophets.

No, there was...

It's a lie.

There was a time where black men were not able to have the priesthood. Which is different than joining the church. You need to keep that in mind.