June 17, 2022 Show with Dr. Sam Waldron on “Do We Still Believe Sola Scriptura? A Word of Caution to Reformed Churches & Leaders About Present-day Dangerous Paths & Slippery Slopes on the Rise Among Us”

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June 17, 2022 Dr. SAM WALDRON, President & Professor of Systematic Theology at Covenant Baptist Theological Seminary in Owensboro, Kentucky, who will address: “DO WE STILL BELIEVE IN SOLA SCRIPTURA?: A WORD of CAUTION to REFORMED CHURCHES & LEADERS ABOUT PRESENT-DAY DANGEROUS PATHS & SLIPPERY SLOPES ON THE RISE AMONG US”

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Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world today
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Chris Arnzen Good afternoon,
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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida And the rest of humanity living on the planet
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Earth who are listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron radio .com This is Chris Arnzen your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Friday on this 17th day of June 2022 and I'm delighted to have back on the program a returning guest
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Dr. Sam Waldron who is president and professor of systematic theology at Covenant Baptist Theological Seminary in Owensburg, Kentucky And we're going to be addressing the theme do we still believe in sola scriptura a word of caution to reform?
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Churches and leaders about present -day dangerous paths and slippery slopes on the rise among us
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And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron radio. Dr. Sam Waldron Thank you,
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Chris good to be with you And if you could let our listeners know something about Covenant Baptist Theological Seminary in Owensboro, Kentucky The last time you were on the program it probably had a different name back then
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I'm almost certain that the name has changed since our last interview. So why don't you tell us about this seminary?
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Yes, so I think we were formerly known as Midwest Center for Theological Studies in 2015 we changed our name to the much more clear
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Covenant Baptist Theological Seminary and We're delighted at what
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God has done among us. We are a confessional Baptist seminary committed to the 1689
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Baptist Confession and our motto kind of says who we are informed scholarship with a pastoral heart and we are endeavoring to Make an affordable theological education
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Available to men both here in Owensboro and through distance education means
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Great, and if anybody wants any more details on Covenant Baptist Theological Seminary in Owensboro, Kentucky Go to CBT Seminary org
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C for Covenant B for Baptist T for theological Seminary org and God willing we'll be repeating that information later on in the program
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And I know that you're also one of the pastors at Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Owensboro, Kentucky Why don't you tell our listeners about that congregation?
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Yes, so we're very thankful for what God is doing this for us here at Grace Reformed Baptist Church in Owensboro, Kentucky Grace Reformed Baptist Church is the host church for The seminary and right now
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God has given us a day of peace and growth and Both seminary and church would be moving to new facilities
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They're being remodeled right now and which greatly enlarges our Our available space in the first quarter of next year.
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We are hoping to be into our new facilities well, I also am
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Delighted to announce that one of my pastors John Miller Here at Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania is on your faculty at Covenant Baptist Theological Seminary he certainly is and teaches courses in Old Old Testament evangelism and church planning and We are and he's also the chairman of our board and has been a great help to The seminary over the past number of years we're pretty thankful for John and our fellowship with him
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Right. Well, I'm going to give our listeners The email address for them to join us on the air with a question of your own that email address is
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Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com as Always, please.
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Give us your first name at least Your city and state of residence and your country of residence
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If you live outside the USA and please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter
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By the way, I believe I forgot to give the website for Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Owensboro, Kentucky for our listeners as well
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That is grbco .org Grbco .org
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for Grace Reformed Baptist Church, Owensboro Grbco .org
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Dr. Waldron, I have been a Christian since approximately 1985 and a
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Reformed Baptist For nearly as long I was raised in the
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Roman Catholic Church had a false gospel obviously and Became a regenerate believer in the mid 80s and by God's good providence the very first church where I became a member after baptism was a
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Reformed Baptist Church and Although not immediately Reformed in my thinking
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I not long after that within maybe a couple of months. I came by God's grace to Understand and enthusiastically embrace and celebrate what we call the doctrines of sovereign grace and I am so thrilled about these doctrines and one of the things
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That has concerned me Lately, and maybe you have seen this on the rise amongst professedly
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Reformed Christians and even Reformed Baptists Maybe you have witnessed this occurring earlier but as long as I've been a
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Reformed Baptist the only Accusations that I ever heard against like -minded brethren of Denying Sola Scriptura or scripture alone as our sole
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Authority in matters of Faith and practice are so inerrant and infallible authority in matters of faith and practice.
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The only time that that was Basically coming into challenge during the course of my
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Christian life was by our fundamentalist brethren who were non -confessional and Those accusations at that time for the most part as far as I could see and people
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I knew Were wrong. They were slanderous. I did not know anybody that elevated the confession to Anywhere near the par of scripture and certainly not above it but in this day and age there seems to be some truth in those accusations that have been rising up and I'm not saying that those that perhaps are dabbling in those areas are consciously
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Doing it as a part of a creed or confession. They're not saying that the confession is is equally authoritative or Superior in its authority but would you agree that there seems to be some language amongst our fellow brethren and even
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Reformed Baptists that that Come dangerously close to coming to those conclusions Well, I have to admit that over the last few years you know, there have been a number of occasions in which
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I've read something and It kind of made a distant alarm bell or I began to The stoplight in my theological brain began to flash yellow
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And I and I wondered about the implications of what had just been said or what
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I had just read Or what I had just heard and and and so it did begin
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Over the last number of years to make concern arise in my heart about this matter especially
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Especially because it can these kind of changes these kind of difficulties these kind of problems
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Can arise so subtly and there's such a delicate balance to be held on this matter
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Now perhaps you should define Sola Scriptura as it has been historically inaccurately believed and Adhered to there are caricatures of it that might be more aptly named solo scriptura our
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Roman Catholic friends tend to slander us with caricatures of Sola Scriptura that no one
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That I not that I am aware of throughout history has ever believed they they are accusing us of saying that every fact
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Is contained in the canon of the scripture and things like that that that no
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Nobody who believes in Sola Scriptura has ever said So why don't you give us a biblical?
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Explanation definition of Sola Scriptura Well, I really can't do any any better of them to simply
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Refer to the confessional definition of it Of course the whole great first chapter of the confession of faith is given over to the
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Subject of the doctrine of scripture and the authority of scripture But in paragraph six,
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I think one of the great statements of that doctrine is given it says the whole counsel of God Concerning all things necessary for his own glory
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Emancipation faith and life is either expressly set down in scripture or by good and necessary Consequence may be deduced from scripture onto which nothing at any time is to be added whether By new revelations of the spirit or traditions of men now, what's really interesting about that statement?
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Chris is that Well, it's a very strong statement of the sufficiency of scripture
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It is there There are of course limitations placed on it.
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You've just mentioned one of them. Of course, we're not saying That the scripture is sufficient for every purpose and for every cause the confession is very clear about that It is necessary.
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I hit the whole counsel of God Concerning everything necessary for his own glory man's salvation faith and life is
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Is is what we're talking about. We're so we're talking about all the articles of the faith are found in scripture and Out there and that of course, there's the statement about of the
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The matter whether they think they may be there expressly Confession says is for expressly set down in scripture or The Westminster Confession puts it this way or by good and necessary Consequence may be deduced from scripture.
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So sola scriptura. This is does not say does not mean
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That everything that we need for God's glory man's salvation faith and life is there in it's scripture
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Explicitly. Oh, that's if there's a proof text for every single doctrine that states it.
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Oh Inexplicit or express terms, but it's simply saying that the scriptures properly interpreted
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Will will contain do contain all the whole foundation for faith whether there's whether by express statement or by good and necessary consequence and it's very important therefore for for us to understand that sola scriptura
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Involves both kinds of assertions of scripture what is expressly set down or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from scripture and and so The doctrine of sola scriptura isn't saying that we have a proof text for everything.
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It does say that proper interpretation of scripture Will is the basis for all of our our?
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doctrine and life before God He and I see if it's found in scripture either expressly or explicitly or implicit implicitly by good and necessary consequence one of the things that Has the reformed faith has been eager to say has to do with this whole matter of good and necessary consequence and and of course, there's a lot of there can be debate over what has good and necessary consequence or not, but but Sola scriptura does allow for that kind of sound scriptural reasoning which reaches conclusion conclusions on the basis of sound scriptural premises and The confession itself that we love the 1689
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London Baptist Confession also known as the Second London Confession Makes it clear that it itself is not inerrant or infallible and that only the scriptures
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Indeed are our inerrant and infallible authority That's right.
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That's right. In fact The I think it's maybe perhaps the most explicit
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Statements with regard to that are found in paragraphs 9 and 10 of the confession of faiths first chapter and it might be good just to Note those
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Paragraph 10 particularly the supreme judge By which all controversies of religion are to be determined and all decrees of counsel's opinions of ancient writers
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Doctrines of men and private spirits are to be examined and in whose sentence we are to rest can be no other
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But the Holy Scripture delivered by the Spirit and so The confession of faith is saying those scriptures are the supreme judge
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The confession itself is simply a a human document that endeavors to state clearly
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What Christians have come to believe are in Scripture? and Can you please tell us the primary areas of concern?
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that have arisen in your mind that even compelled you to Write an article that is publicly available on All forms of social media including the
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Covenant Baptist Theological Seminary website Do we believe in sola scriptura what led you
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To feel so passionately about Errors that you perceive are on the rise in this area of sola scriptura
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That that you said I've got to put this in writing I've got to make this a matter of public record that I am very uncomfortable
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With what I am witnessing and hearing and I've got to give a warning to the Saints about it
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Yeah, you know as I said before Chris I Think this is
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I think this is a delicate matter I think it's a I think we this is what truth is the width of a razor's edge.
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Somebody has said and And of course, there's no truth more fundamental to us as Protestants than sola scriptura the scriptures alone is the foundation of our faith and so I Feel passionately about that principle.
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I was I guess I I want to say that I was
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I It was not the statements that I was hearing That made me passionate the statements.
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I would make I was hearing made me troubled There was that it was sola scriptura that made me passionate but There were two
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I would come across A statement That Said something like every detail of the faith is
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Not in Scripture. That was one of the statements that came came To my attention and I would think to myself
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Well, what does that mean? Every detail of faith is not scripture to me the faith means the things that we must believe the the articles of faith and I thought to myself
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I Think I'm committed to the idea that every every detail of the faith is in Scripture Of course
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I acknowledge the scriptural doctrine that and the confessional doctrine because right in paragraph 6 it goes on to say that there are some
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There are some things and the government of the church and the worship of God that have to be determined by the light of nature
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Of course, we understand that and something like sanctified common sense but that's not the faith the faith has the to with the the matter of what we must believe or what the scripture teaches and And so I Said it like that made me wonder it seemed it seemed loose.
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It seemed unguarded to me, I guess Another another example came when
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We heard Someone saying that that heresy is to be defined in terms of the
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Of the creeds of the church now, I'm certainly aware that practically speaking
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Nicaea and Chalcedon both of which I hold with all my heart did define important departures from the faith and and practically speaking heresy was
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In the Middle Ages after the Formulations of Nicaea and Chalcedon the
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Those those those those things did define a scriptural doctrine in a clear way and and Certainly, I would agree that if someone
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Of flagrantly contradicted Nicaea or Chalcedon I would I would regard that as heresy, but I wouldn't regard it as heresy
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Because the creed said so I would regard it as heresy because the scripture says so said so and it was things like that That began to trouble me and I'm thinking to myself
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Are we going just that Fraction of an inch too far in our respect or in our respect for historical theology
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That that fraction of an inch too far. That's going to lead us down the slippery slope away from Sola Scriptura It was it was things like that Chris.
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Now if you could differentiate from that and an understanding like for instance if a
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Deacon or perhaps even an elder or some Formally Faithful man in the congregation is leading a
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Bible study or something like that and He is teaching something that Violates one of the primary tenets that a confessional church adheres to and there would be occasions when
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The the elders would point out to this individual who may be even under discipline for these things or at least removed from a an activity of teaching
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It might be initially pointed out to this person we adhere to the 1689
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London Baptist Confession of Faith and the summary of Biblical teachings that we adhere to are contained in this
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Confession and therefore you have violated this article or that article What would be the difference between that which it's still an understanding that it's a biblical violation
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But you're just pointing to the the the fact that since you are Officially confessional and you agree with the the framers
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Exegesis as to the primary doctrines contained in the confession that you're just going to that first to avoid a a
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Debate over what the scripture teaches you're actually going to a settled issue in the confession
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Yeah Yeah and we have to very clearly understand the purpose of our confessions of faith as churches and So let me just talk about that a little bit
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I would certainly if someone was contradicting the confession of faith and teaching a
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Bible study and someone brought it to my attention I would certainly not be embarrassed about citing the confession of faith
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But and saying look you can't teach contrary to the confession of faith in a ministry of this church because our
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Constitution Says that the confession of faith is what we understand scripture to teach and So if the confession of faith says well, well, we understand scripture to teach.
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It's not the confession That is defining heresy. It's it's the confession that is defining our understanding of the teaching of scripture and And the our agreed -upon understanding of what scripture teaches
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So the fundamental principle is still the the contradiction of scripture
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It's important here to though to allow the confession to Make some some distinctions that I think are not often enough made in discussions like this
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I I for one have become very uncomfortable and With the way that the term heresy gets thrown around and And the confession makes a very important distinction between Air and airs that in the language old
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English language avert the foundation Which means to overthrow the foundation or perhaps to turn the foundation inside out?
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And it it does not say that Christians never hold any airs
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But it does say that a man who holds an air that overthrows the foundation Does undermine his
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Christian profession? And I think it's important for us to understand that but so the principle
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I would use the confession I would say right here's the confession, but I wouldn't I wouldn't stop there
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I would I would take the man to scripture and say look here's why you're wrong here's what this but here's why the confession says what it does and And we must that we must take people to scripture and not simply stop with a fair citation of the confessional faith now one of the things that I have seen and heard that have given me reasons to Be troubled is
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That there are fellow Reformed Baptists who are saying publicly We have been using a wrong hermeneutic for as long as we have been professedly
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Reformed Baptists, and it is being told to us that we have to adopt a new hermeneutic
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And that would even include Viewing scriptures through the lenses of Thomas Aquinas And I I'm a former
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Roman Catholic and I happen to know that Thomas Aquinas is brilliant as he was and I'm not saying that everything he believed was false and That would be the case with most of the most renowned
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Roman Catholic Theologians throughout the centuries not everything that he would say is false but He was clearly not a brother in Christ.
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He rejected the gospel. He had a gospel that was later Repeated in the
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Council of Trent the very council that anathematized Protestants for our understanding of justification in the gospel.
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I have a very hard time Viewing that man as an authority and to the point where I'm supposed to be viewing the scriptures through his lenses and But he but even beyond that Even if an atheist says something that's true.
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It's true The fact that it seems to be Frighteningly close to a denial of soul of script or do you know where I'm coming from here?
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Yeah, I do and Let me maybe maybe it'd be good for your listeners if I tried to explain why
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I think this is coming from Untroubled by it as well
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I'm But but I think what I think there's a kind of Slippage here and people's thinking that I would like to To challenge just a little bit um, there's a
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There's a great concern in some of some men's hearts That there has been a
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Departure from what's known nowadays as classical theism which is the the kind of understanding of the doctrine of God, which is
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Confessed in chapter 2 of our confession for instance, and there's a great deal of concern that with the wave after wave early in the 20th century of Process theism and open theism and free will theism that There has been a slippage away from the classical doctrine of God among some of Evangelical and even some reformed thinkers
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I Think that concern is legitimate It's always easy to take concerns like that too far or to see heresy under Every misstatement, but I do think that's a legitimate concern.
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There has been a real Strong philosophical and theological
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A Wave of offense in the last century or a century and a half that has taken the
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Christian Church away from a classical doctrine of God and so I Think it's really important for us to carefully explain but teach the great attributes of God not only his eternity but his immutability and His and the divine simplicity and impassability these are doctrines that Cannot be given up without beginning to unravel the classical
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Christian doctrine of God and Defendant those doctrines many times.
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I will keep defending them, but I Think what the reason Thomas has become so popular is that he has
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He he's seen as a bulwark against all those modern trends of that have somewhat undermined the doctrine of God and he's seen as the epitome or paragon of Classical of the classical
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Christian doctrine of God now, I think I think that that's where the interest in and The attachment to Thomas has come from what
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I would like to say about all this is that Or there are a number of things I'd like to say about that In fact, could we have you really target that directly when we come back from the first break?
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We have to go to our first station break Sure, that's great. And we can return with a fuller examination of your views of Thomas Aquinas and the adoption of Reformed people of this historic figure
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So anybody wants to join us on the air with a question of your own or email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com
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I'm pastor Anthony video and thanks for welcome back This is Chris Arnson. If you just tuned us in our guest today is
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Dr. Sam Waldron, and he is president and professor of systematic theology at Covenant Baptist Theological Seminary in Owensboro, Kentucky We are addressing a very
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Important question do we still believe in sola scriptura and this we is being directed right now exclusively towards Our fellow reform brethren
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If you have a question Send it in to Chris Arnson at gmail .com Chris Arnson at gmail .com
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and give us your first name at least your city and state And country of residence right before the break. Dr. Waldron You're beginning to give your thoughts on Thomism the doctrines championed by Thomas Aquinas and using his lenses as a vital hermeneutic
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Principle in order to rightly understand not only the scriptures, but even our 1689
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London Baptist Confession Yeah Yeah, I Guess so that this is this is such a many faceted multifaceted subject
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Chris, but I Think I was saying that trying to understand the mentality of those who are kind of championing
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Thomas he looks like a safe guide Not in everything to them.
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They would acknowledge that but to the correct classical Christian doctrine of God and Of course, there's a few doctrines more central than our doctors have cut to the
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Christian faith I guess what I want to say though is that There are alternatives
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Chris are you still there? Oh, yeah, I'm still here. I Got it. I got a signal.
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I thought it might have lost it. I want to say that Aquinas is not the only alternative in Terms of the classical
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Christian doctrine of God and the other thing that I want to say is that That classical
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Christian doctrine of God was was shared by Augustine and Anselm and many other of the
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Church Fathers and And I think Aquinas influence has become too
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It's been seen as too far widespread in terms of too many things now one of the things
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I'm concerned about is You have you've had this trend among some theologians to say well
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There was a scholastic Methodology that was used and to some degree that's true
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Even by our Protestant and reformed forefathers There was a scholastic methodology used but then that gets broad to say.
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Well, that means that That they were following time of Thomas Aquinas But I really think that that's a misunderstanding one of the things
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I want to say and I've done the study of this is that they're trying to say that the
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Reformed Fathers and Puritans as a whole were just vastly influenced by Aquinas and I've done the work on this.
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The fact of the matter is that We go back to Calvin's Institutes of the Christian religion.
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He cites Augustine 300 times or so And by name most of those times
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He cites Aquinas a Not -ever very clearly, but only about three times when he cites
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Augustine He's usually in complete agreement with Augustine when he cites Aquinas It is either disagreement or a very qualified agreement with what he says and so I think what needs to be understood is that Aquinas isn't the the only option in terms of giving us classical theism
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Augustine and some are there as well. The other thing I want to say is once there's been this slippery slope scholastic methodology
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Then we go to Aquinas doctrine of God and then and then people want to take us from this
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Aquinas doctrine of God to now we have to accept this natural theology And his understanding of apologetics.
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We have to accept classical apologetics because that's what Thomas was And therefore we have to reject
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Vantil and presuppositionalism and and and we just keep we just keep finding out that the the
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Push for Aquinas doctrine of God doesn't stop there. It keeps going and what people what your listeners need to know is
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Aquinas and Augustine and Anselm held different views the whole issue of natural theology and and the proofs for the existence of God they did not agree with each other and I think
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I can show people clear statements in the in the
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Summa's of Aquinas where he actually contradicts a
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Statements that Augustine and Anselm made and one of the things that seems to be going on here
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Is that there's there's the assumption? It sounds so much like what was part and parcel of the
42:51
Roman Catholic view of tradition Although I'm not accusing anybody of that But it's like there's this universal tradition that that was always the same everywhere and always
43:02
Well, that's that's a really Simplistic view of the
43:09
Christian tradition even the Orthodox Christian tradition There were disagreements among these men about things like how you prove the existence of God and the arguments for the existence of God and Even though there was a general agreement on the whole subject of the classical
43:26
Christian doctrine of God We can't just take that and go everywhere with it and say this goes back to the question of hermaneutics now that you're
43:34
Raising we can't just say that. All right, so there's that there's this universal Christian tradition
43:40
About how the Bible's to be interpreted. They always agreed everywhere about all everything. That's a caricature
43:46
I know but the fact of the matter is that you get that impression that they that the
43:52
Great theologians never disagreed about anything. We know that's not true and we have to oh
43:59
We have to go back and say hey, Jim, wait a second. There were legitimate disagreements with Aquinas and and and Kelvin followed
44:11
Augustine more than he did Aquinas and And there were many important points like that.
44:17
So we can talk about and I think we should talk about Interpreting the
44:23
Bible with the help of the great pastor teachers that God has gifted through Christ of the church over the 2 ,000 years of church history and we ignore their teaching and we know their interpretation of the
44:35
Bible at our peril but Though that great tradition is a wonderful guide and teacher
44:42
It's a terrible Lord and master and we must we must distinguish those two things well, isn't one of the
44:49
Reasons that we're even having this conversation today. Is that there are those who are saying? that Reform Baptist now, obviously we believe as Reform Baptist that our beliefs are biblical, but they did not become
45:05
Real popular Until a resurgence of the beliefs in the doctrines of sovereign grace amongst
45:14
Baptists and the mid 20th century so so basically there is
45:24
There is a accusation being made. I'm assuming that there the accusations are being made about those
45:32
Reform Baptists whether they use that title or not all the way back from the 1950s and onward until today that the we all have been wrong in the way that we have
45:49
Interpreted the scriptures our hermeneutic has been wrong and we all should change
45:54
In order to be faithful to the scriptures, isn't that a reason for? alarm Bells to go off Hmm.
46:04
Well, that's a that's an important issue that you're raising and I Guess it depends
46:14
And to some degree what you mean by that Let me let me share a personal story with you Chris that may may help us get into this in a helpful way
46:26
I Still have my my library a couple of books that I Were used in my
46:35
Bible college as textbooks for hermeneutics for biblical interpretation and those books
46:46
While they were orthodox they were and not they were conservative Christian books they weren't books that assumed the fallibility of scripture anything they basically taught that the
47:01
Complete statement of or a summary of proper
47:06
Christian hermeneutics was that We must interpret the
47:11
Bible grammatically and historically well as That's that's certainly true.
47:18
We have to pay attention to the meaning of the language of the Bible grammatically historically and historically it means
47:27
The language of the Bible means what it meant in the context of a certain history And it means what it means in terms of the context of the laws of a given language
47:38
But here's here's the issue. Um and there there was something wrong with that kind of that kind of hermeneutic and It wasn't that it wasn't so much that it was
47:54
I said it was wrong it wasn't so much that it was wrong is that it didn't go far enough and when
48:01
I read Burkoff's manual on Christian hermeneutics He added another word to the vocabulary.
48:10
He said that Christian hermeneutics not only be grammatical and historical, but they had to be theological and I realized that in the kind of hermeneutics and Bible interpretation
48:21
I've been taught in college there that had been a missing element that the fact that the whole
48:28
Bible is God's message to us means that We have to interpret it in that way grammatical and historical
48:39
Interpretation while assuming that the Holy Spirit was inspiring them grammatical and historical
48:46
Interpretation were only taken into account the minds of the human authors whereas Burkoff was saying we have to go farther than that.
48:56
We have to understand that the Bible has a divine author and The simplistic notion that the
49:03
Bible can only mean what the original readers thought it meant is simply not
49:08
Accurate it doesn't go far enough We have to take into account that the the true and ultimate altar author of scripture is
49:17
God And we have to interpret the scripture in terms of it's been said it a number of different ways
49:23
We have to interpret scripture in terms of its canonical trajectory We have to have a big place in our thinking or typology in scripture
49:32
I remember being taught in Bible college that we couldn't assume that there were any types in scripture
49:38
But the ones that were mentioned explicitly in the New Testament Well, that's not true I had heard
49:44
New Testament texts that tell us there's a lot more types in the Old Testament than those the
49:50
New Testament Those the New Testament that defines and points out read
49:56
Hebrews 9 and 10. So the point is yeah I think there was a need to improve the kind of I I'm not sure what quite what the called the kind of hermeneutics
50:11
I was taught in Bible college and I went to a fundamentalist Bible college So I I guess the kind of hermeneutics
50:17
I would talk that there were not so much wrong as inadequate. Okay now
50:22
I said all of that to say that Another aspect of that of that That has been being emphasized is that there can be a kind of biblicism
50:38
And that's a word that gets tossed around in our day a lot. It needs to be carefully defined and I Think we have to say at least a couple of things about biblicism.
50:49
It's It's what you call soloscript soloscripture of before S -o -l -o
50:56
Yeah, s -o -l -o. That's right that I can improve on my Bible just me and my Bible and the
51:03
Holy Spirit And I don't have to and it's useless and really unnecessary
51:08
To acquaint myself with anything other Christians have said about the meaning of the Bible for the last 20 centuries
51:14
I wish another derogatory term could be chosen because I hate to think of Biblicism being used in some kind of negative or heretical way.
51:22
It seems strange Yeah, and okay, it is it is sad, isn't it?
51:29
But this is what guys mean by it that the Bible is interpreted without reference to the guides and teachers given to the church and church history and Biblicism is also associated with the idea that you need an explicit proof text and you can't and and and it
51:46
Basically a denial of good and necessary consequence Well, of course, I accept the need for the guides and teachers of the of the
51:55
Christian tradition I accept the need for What the
52:00
Bible says by good and necessary consequence is Bible And is what
52:06
God says? And so I think we have to accept both those things but but what where this all goes wrong is
52:17
When The Christian tradition is thought of as monolithic and there's a really naive and idea that It taught the same thing everywhere and always
52:32
Everything and that's not true. In fact, let's pick up right where you left off there because we have to go to our midway break right now and once again if anybody wants to Send in the question of your own and we do have a number of people waiting to have their questions asked and answered
52:48
But if you would like to join us in our discussion with a question of your own send it to Chris Arnson at gmail .com
52:55
Chris Arnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name city and state and country of residence Please be patient with us as we take this longer than normal break as we always do in the middle of the show
53:06
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53:35
Sam Waldron to Chris Arnson at gmail .com Chris Arnson at gmail .com. We'll be right back right after these messages
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I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations a church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is
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Sam Waldron on do we still believe in sola scriptura Chris arms in a gmail .com
01:12:54
Give us your first name city and state and country of residence. And before I go to any of the listeners who have already submitted questions
01:13:01
Dr. Waldron, you were talking about biblicism and for those of us tuning in Believe it or not.
01:13:09
That is a term that is being used in a derogatory sense And I hate the very fact that it is but it just happens to become a part apparently of common usage in theological circles to Condemn or to rebuke and warn people who think that they can just go off into the woods with the
01:13:31
Bible and and Not be in the need of any teachers whether they be in in churches locally or great minds of the past In order to rightly understand what is being said in the scriptures.
01:13:44
You could pick up where we left off Sure, you know, I have a couple of things to say about that, you know
01:13:51
And I've said them before but I want to say them in a little different way, you know Tradition and what
01:13:59
I mean by the Christian tradition is the line of great pastor teachers That's Christ's promise to give us church and church history that tradition
01:14:09
Does not have any independent authority the only value of that tradition is
01:14:16
It is as it guides us and and and helps us understand scripture itself and And so At best it is a light which when shined upon scripture
01:14:31
Opens up this dark places of scripture. We see. Oh, I see it in scripture for myself
01:14:38
It's not as though That their tradition has any independent authority over us and that's why
01:14:45
I said earlier It's it's a guide and it's a teacher. It is not a
01:14:50
Lord and Master and I'm reminded here of the words of the Ethiopian eunuch to Philip When it when he was asked do you understand what you're reading?
01:14:59
He says, how can I accept someone guide us guide me? Well, we need someone to guide us in scripture, but but when we're done, we don't say oh, thank you
01:15:08
You show me things that are not in scripture, no we say to our guide
01:15:14
Oh, I see it in the Bible myself and so the other thing I've been doing here during the break
01:15:20
Chris is sitting here staring at the words of Luther at the
01:15:26
Diet of Worms in 1521 and wondering if some people think that Luther would be a biblicist when he said unless I'm Convinced by scripture in plain reason
01:15:39
I do not accept the authority of the Popes and councils for they have contradicted each other
01:15:44
My conscience is captive to the Word of God I cannot and I will not recant anything for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe God help me.
01:15:54
Amen. His conscience was captive to the Word of God now I have to admit that in the context of the modern discussion of the reformed
01:16:04
Baptist Those words are kind of jarring to me and I I'm certainly not saying that a
01:16:13
Luther is a biblicist But I wonder if some other people would hear those words and wonder if Luther was a biblicist
01:16:19
You know one of the reasons why I think that that's a very poor choice of terms to use as a pejorative term biblicist is that those people that fit that caricature of Not having any authority at all
01:16:36
Of course, the Bible is our only inerrant authority and fallible authority, but but having no other authority or no other teacher other than your own mind in the
01:16:45
Bible They are violating the Bible when they have that conclusion. So it's really not biblicism
01:16:54
I mean not only does the the Bible command that we have teachers in the church. There are certain requirements
01:17:00
For teachers not everybody can be a teacher. So to call it biblicism that I think is a very poor choice of words
01:17:09
Yeah, I can understand your concern about that the fact the matter is that the
01:17:14
Bible is and remains our sole authority and The value of teachers and of course they need to have the proper qualifications in the church
01:17:24
But the value of teachers is simply to help us understand Scripture And the result of that teaching is that I now understand
01:17:34
Scripture I I've used this illustration a number of times Chris and preaching about it. I remember my kindergarten teachers name
01:17:41
I don't know if I remember very many other of my teachers names, but mrs. Kelly Mrs.
01:17:47
Kelly helped me to learn to read now I Don't need mrs. Kelly any longer to read
01:17:54
I can read for myself The value of teachers has helped us to understand the Bible for ourselves.
01:18:00
It's not to make us dependent upon Aristotelian philosophy and you know having read a hundred thousand pages of Church history, but but all of those things may or may not be helpful to us
01:18:16
But we need with but the goal is to understand Scripture in its own self -authenticating authority for ourselves
01:18:26
We do have a listener in Jefferson City, Missouri, and I believe this is a first -time questioner
01:18:34
Daniel in Jefferson City, Missouri, dr. Waldron How would you respond to people who claim that those of us who adhere to sola scriptura are making an idol out of the
01:18:44
Bible? well, I would think that that would primarily be Roman Catholics that would say that because even the
01:18:50
Reformed Baptists over which we are having a Difference of opinion would never say that sola scriptura in and out of itself makes an idol out of the
01:19:00
Bible, but Of course, they wouldn't but my response to that is
01:19:09
Well, I suppose there are a number of different ways that could be responded to but The what the
01:19:16
Bible is God himself speaking Yeah the language of Scripture about itself is that God has given us living oracles of The language of Scripture is that the
01:19:33
Word of God lives and abides forever It has a continuing authority Why?
01:19:40
Because the Bible's not a dead book. It is God himself speaking to us and if the
01:19:47
Bible is God himself speaking to us of Then I think we should
01:19:54
In a right sense worship the God who speaks to us in the
01:19:59
Bible And so this this idea that we're worshiping a book
01:20:04
Forgets that the book is the living Word of God and that we ought to worship
01:20:09
God in his living Word The Word of God is the second person of the
01:20:17
Trinity in another sense, right? Should we worship the second person of the Trinity? Of course, we should so I think this doctrine forgets the identity of the
01:20:28
Bible as the living Word of God as the living and abiding Word of God it's sharper than any two -edged sword and Read Hebrews 4 12 12 12 and 13 read first Peter 1 23 to 25 read
01:20:43
Acts 7 and how Stephen describes the Bible as the living oracles of God and And this notion that we can set up some sort of divide between God and the
01:20:56
Bible will go away No, we don't worship a black book with an end of paper But this but it's but it's the
01:21:04
Word of God and therefore we give it all the reverence That we would give to God's own
01:21:10
Word Thank You Daniel and you are going to receive I believe you are a first -time questioner and As all first -time questioners, you're going to receive a free
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Will be shipping that out to you if you provide your full mailing address in Jefferson City, Missouri We have
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Joseph in South Central, Pennsylvania and Joseph says
01:21:46
I have heard that there are Reformed Baptists who are now insisting that we cannot Interpret the
01:21:53
Bible rightly without using the Socratic method and Platonism Named after Plato.
01:21:59
Is this true? And how concerned should we be by this? Um Things like that,
01:22:11
I'm afraid are being said and I Think we need
01:22:17
I think statements like that aren't usually usually misunderstood And I want to be careful how
01:22:28
I respond here because I'm not that sure sometimes What people who say that say things like that actually mean by what they're saying?
01:22:37
But I'm going to respond to it as a presuppositionalist and I'm going to say look
01:22:48
Bentham made a distinction between using the words of philosophy and But and not allowing the concepts of secular or non -christian philosophy into our theology it's it's right to use non -biblical words of that's another thing that Some people mean by Biblicism that you can't use words that aren't the
01:23:16
Bible to describe Bible doctrine Well, if that's true, then the Nicene Creed's use of homoousia
01:23:24
Same substance is wrong if that's true Then that our use of the dot of the word
01:23:29
Trinity is wrong. And of course, that's that's very false. We can use words
01:23:35
That aren't in the Bible filling up filling them with the proper Biblical content defining them biblically and then of course we can we can use words that may have been used by Socrates or Plato or Aristotle but but there's but there's a cleansing process and there's a limiting process that must be
01:24:01
Exercised over those words before we bring them into our understanding of Christian doctrine
01:24:08
And I think that's that's what's troubling With the use of language like Christian Platonism, what does that mean?
01:24:18
My own understanding is that the Bible warns us against Non -christian philosophies
01:24:28
It doesn't Paul do that in Colossians 2 doesn't Paul do that Romans 1 and so every
01:24:36
It's not as though of Reading those kind of things and all knowledge.
01:24:43
There is profit we can understand we can we can learn words and concepts
01:24:49
But we have to make sure that before we bring them into sacred theology They are cleansed of non -christian concepts and and I I for one don't think
01:25:02
Plato was too Christian. I don't think Socrates was a Christian I don't think
01:25:07
Aristotle was a Christian and and therefore I that they may have had insight about such things but But we have to distinguish the ways in which they were reflecting the light of nature and the way in which
01:25:28
The way in which they interpreted that light of nature and so The natural revelation that comes that were reminded of through them.
01:25:38
We can use that but but the philosophical and theological understanding they have we cannot use that and So there's a distinction here between the natural theology of Aristotle and Plato and and the natural
01:25:55
Revelation which they're reflecting. Let me give you a biblical illustration of this
01:26:01
Paul cites heathen poets in Accentine a couple of times and again in Titus 1 look
01:26:12
In the original context of that poetry These are hymns to Zeus is is
01:26:19
Paul in any sense saying that this poetry that What was him to Zeus and reflected a
01:26:29
Pagan polyistic Theology is is valuable for us.
01:26:35
No, I think what he's doing though Is he's saying look the light of nature the sense of the census they have taught us
01:26:42
Shines in all men and it comes through in their philosophy and their philosophies and theologies in all sorts of ways
01:26:51
And and he's saying it reflects the light of nature It doesn't reflect it distorts it, but we can still see in what they say
01:27:01
Despite their false philosophy and their false interpretations of it the original light of nature
01:27:07
He's always he's citing these heathen poets not in terms of their theology and philosophy but as they
01:27:16
Reflected that the light of nature shines even in Pagan men and and kind of forces itself out
01:27:24
In their theology and philosophy. And so I think that's why he can we can cite the language of these heathen poets because he sees in it reflected the light of nature and not what the
01:27:37
What not because he agrees with one word about what they're saying about Zeus We have an anonymous listener who says
01:27:46
I have Cherished friends and brethren on both sides of the argument that you are discussing today, and I have become increasingly troubled saddened and Confused by the militancy that has arisen on Those especially on the opposing side to which you hold to dr.
01:28:09
Waldron The thing that this seems to be doing first and foremost is attacking the purpose cuity of the scriptures and it also seems to be forming a wedge between Things that typically historically were not a part of Baptist ecclesiology and terminology forming a wedge between Clergy and laity it seems that there is a group that even if they would never say this in this wording is beginning to view themselves as an elite group of Interpreters that we must all turn to in order to understand our scripture creating even if unintentionally and unconsciously a
01:29:00
Reform Baptist magisterium and my way off here That's Saying a lot right there and I'm not sure
01:29:20
I want to say I don't think that I want to attribute and Maybe your listeners and either motivations to those
01:29:33
That Trouble him and and to some degree trouble me. In fact the listener he or she did say
01:29:41
Unconsciously, they're doing this likely. Yeah. Yeah, I'm glad he said that because I You know, we're on slippery ground when we try to judge the motives of people at the same time at the same time
01:29:55
I Wish that those who are moving in that direction would
01:30:02
Stop just for a moment and ask themselves If they're doing anything that might give that give that impression to this listener, right?
01:30:16
You know what I wrote my what I wrote my piece on on solo scriptura
01:30:22
I'm not saying it was perfect. But I Try I tried not to name names.
01:30:28
I did not name names. In fact, I Tried to Say these are statements that are troubling to me these are statements that can confuse me and worry me and I wish and and and and I don't know how everybody responded to my blog, but I I do know that there was some
01:30:54
There was a rather ferocious response to it. And and I want to say hey
01:31:01
Look slow down here a second. All I'm saying I'm not I'm not out here to start a fight
01:31:06
I I'm just I'm out here really to say this stuff is worrying me and it's worrying me about a very fundamental issue of Reform theology solo scriptura and I wish
01:31:25
I'd like to say to some of those people. I wish you would just of stop reacting so much and and listen to what my heart and and and and and just have a
01:31:42
Exercise of a little portion of self -doubt here and and and maybe
01:31:49
Maybe there's things you could do and say I think there are things you can do it Say which would reassure people that are really being
01:31:58
Worried and troubled about some of the things you're saying rather than simply, you know Reacting to it
01:32:05
And I'm not saying everybody responded that way, but rather just reacting to it that they need to ask themselves
01:32:13
Is there something we need to do differently or explain differently so that?
01:32:18
Folks like the listener that just wrote in Can be reassured that We're not going off the rails here in some really bad way
01:32:28
Well, you know as the judge as the Billy Joel song goes we didn't start the fire for somebody to be reacting with nastiness to you because of your article is odd because It is the other group within the
01:32:45
Reform Baptist movement who is making the claim. We've all been wrong Yeah, right
01:32:52
So it's I mean it's as if everybody is supposed to follow in lockstep
01:32:59
With those that believe they have new insights that should Govern the thinking of everybody else that wears the title of Reform Baptist and confessional
01:33:10
Reform Baptist right You know, there's a danger on both sides, isn't there there really is
01:33:17
I mean I'll we all we all have to be really ready to continue to learn and all of us can
01:33:28
At some level think that we've attained and we've got nothing more to learn. I certainly learned a lot
01:33:34
He's over the last 35 years since I thought 40 almost 45 years
01:33:40
No, 40 years since I wrote a modern exposition of the Baptist Confession was a lot
01:33:46
I've learned since then and I want to keep being able to listen and And and learn from other people and And of course, it's always troubling to be told that you've been dead wrong about something for 40 years
01:34:04
Oh, but I want to be able to listen and re -evaluate myself with humility But at the same time,
01:34:10
I think that that shoe should be worn That shoe fits both both sides of the debate, doesn't it?
01:34:17
Yes, and we have to go to our final break It's going to be a lot more brief than the other breaks And if you have any questions submit them to Chris Arnzen at gmail .com
01:34:25
Chris Arnzen at gmail .com as always give us your first name at least your city and state in your country of residence
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Don't go away. We'll be right back with Sam Waldron James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here excited to announce that my longtime friend
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Welcome back and this is our final segment of our interview with Dr.
01:48:06
Sam Waldron today on the theme Do We Still Believe in Sola Scriptura? We have Robert in Westchester County, New York who says,
01:48:15
I hope you didn't cover this already, but after reading your blog article, it seems that one of the root causes of the issue that gives you trouble seems to be a misunderstanding of how people are using the concept of Semper Reformanda.
01:48:31
Could you further explain? Yeah, that's an interesting and a little difficult issue, but I had heard things that had limited
01:48:50
Semper Reformanda to the simply, you know, the confession is always going to be reforming us, we're always going to be becoming more confessional, and there's a lot of truth in that historical way of looking at it.
01:49:09
It's simply that whatever the exact historical origins of Semper Reformanda are, that we always have to and the confession itself says that we always have to be in a place with a mentality that our confessional commitments are reformable by Scripture.
01:49:36
I'm not in favor of doing that lightly, easily, quickly or anything else, but I am in favor, but I have to be in favor of the principle that our confessions need to be reformable in light of Scripture.
01:49:51
So, and when people kind of say all sorts of other things but never say that,
01:50:01
I wonder if we've slipped away from the fact that the final judge of truth is
01:50:09
Scripture, or at least I begin to worry about it. Well, thank you,
01:50:14
Robert. And if you could, in the time that we have left, I want to make sure that you clarify the major concerns, all of them,
01:50:24
I don't want to leave anything out if we have time, to address all the rest of the major concerns you had or have,
01:50:30
I should say, with what has arisen among us, that basically we are hearing voices from brothers and sisters and also in cases of people in the academic realm, colleagues that are saying, hey folks, guess what, we've been doing it wrong the entire time we've been professing
01:50:54
Reformed Baptists and we've been teachers and preachers and professors, we've got to revamp everything.
01:51:00
What are the major concerns you have with what is being said? That's hard to summarize, brother, but let's you know, some of the things
01:51:16
I said in my blog article is let's make sure that we're not so broadly or loosely defined
01:51:24
Biblicism that we have to raise the question, is sola scriptura now
01:51:29
Biblicism? We never want to get there and then
01:51:38
I was just raising a concern about the whole use of the analogy of faith.
01:51:46
I believe in the analogy of faith, don't get me wrong, in fact the Confession probably implies it quite straightforwardly in paragraph, chapter 1, paragraph 9, the infallible rule of interpretation of Scripture as the
01:52:00
Scripture itself and therefore when there's a question about the true and full sense of any Scripture which is not matterful, but one, it must be searched by other places to speak more clearly.
01:52:10
And so, clearly, if something is taught elsewhere in the Word of God very clearly, then we can't go to another passage of Scripture and say it teaches something that's completely contradictory.
01:52:26
At the same time, though, there must be a holy suspicion of our own logic and we need to be really careful that we're not seeing contradictions where the
01:52:39
Bible would actually be enlarging our understanding of truth and we're just denying parts of Scripture that we think logically contradict.
01:52:53
And here I want to appeal to the fact that what we have of the Bible is the revelation of the holy and mysterious
01:53:02
God and, you know, we have to remember that the analogy of faith has been misused.
01:53:10
Some people have said, if the doctrine of election is true, then no place else in the
01:53:16
Bible can the free offer of the Gospel be taught because that would contradict the doctrine of election.
01:53:22
Well, I think Reformed theology has at least reached a general consensus that there's no real contradiction between the doctrine of election and the free offer of the
01:53:31
Gospel, but that the fact that some Reformed theologians have reached that conclusion that there is a contradiction and the free offer isn't true ought to warn us about trusting our logic too much.
01:53:44
And we never want to get to the place where our systematic theology can't be corrected by the
01:53:50
Bible. That's another concern I have that somehow we're so confident in all the jots and tittles of our systematic theology and our understanding of the
01:54:07
Christian tradition that the Bible can no longer realistically and helpfully correct what we think.
01:54:19
And I also want to say that I believe that the development of doctrine in Church history is organic and that the
01:54:31
Bible teaches that there's going to be a development of doctrine. The Church is going to have an increasing understanding of the truth of Scripture.
01:54:40
Not that it's going to become completely different in the 21st century than it was in the 17th century.
01:54:48
But I want to say, look, we have to be prepared for our understanding, our doctrinal development as the
01:54:57
Church of Jesus Christ to develop and be enlarged and we can't take any century of Church history the 17th century or the 3rd century we can't take any century of Church history and say you know, that's they got it all right there's no room for any development since then.
01:55:23
And I say that as one who holds with all my heart to the truths of Nicaea and Chalcedon.
01:55:29
I don't think anything's going to contradict them. I think they make plain what Scripture makes plain itself.
01:55:36
But I'm just saying, look, I think sometimes I feel like, you know, if that's that we can't go any further than the
01:55:48
High Reformation and I just can't. That's not my understanding of Church history or the development of doctrine in Church history.
01:55:57
Don't you think a wise thing to ask especially those that might not only have been upset by your blog article but also upset by us having this conversation wouldn't a wise question for them to be, how do you want us to respond?
01:56:18
I mean other than just following in their footsteps with an allegiance to their understanding how are we supposed to respond?
01:56:27
Yeah. And I think that's a really good question, Chris. Must not our response, and must they not expect their response to be to the law and to the testimony?
01:56:41
If they speak not according to this word it's because there's no dawn for them.
01:56:47
And I'm not applying that to them, I'm just saying that our consciences are held captive by the
01:56:53
Word of God. We've got a seat in the Bible. And if we're going to believe it, and if we're going to walk in that way.
01:57:03
And is there to your knowledge any efforts being made to have perhaps at first a private gathering of folks on opposite sides of these issues so that a brotherly hashing out of the disagreements can occur, and then later perhaps even
01:57:21
I happen to be a lover of debates. I would love to be even a part of a public moderated, fair brotherly, in -house, collegiate debate between people on both sides.
01:57:34
But do you know of anything, and don't you think it would be wise for such a, at least initially a private gathering and meeting to occur?
01:57:45
I don't know of anything like that. I I The whole issue of debates,
01:57:56
I sometimes I have and I this is not a criticism of those who are well known as Christian debaters, but sometimes
01:58:07
I fear that in a debating context, it becomes more about winning than it becomes about elucidating the truth of God's word.
01:58:18
So but maybe I could be more in favor of something like a symposium than I could the thrust and stab of of a debate.
01:58:35
But to answer your first question, I don't know of anything like that, and perhaps some interaction like that would be helpful.
01:58:43
Well, I want to thank you so much Dr. Waldron for being such a superb guest today.
01:58:48
I want to remind our listeners that if you want more information about Covenant Baptist Theological Seminary in Owensboro, Kentucky, you can go to cbt seminary .org
01:59:02
cbt seminary .org And also, if you would like to find out more about Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Owensboro, Kentucky go to grbco .org
01:59:14
grbco .org grbco .org Thank you so much for being a superb guest. I want to thank all of our listeners, especially those who took the time to write.
01:59:22
I hope you all have a very safe and blessed and Christ -honoring weekend and Lord's Day and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater