Austin Petersen: Christianity & Libertarianism (Full Episode!)

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All right, guys, welcome back to another episode of Apologia TV, a really fascinating episode of Apologia TV.

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It's really kind of a first for us. I'm excited. Apologia TV to have something as unique as this. Yes.

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Right. I mean, just in terms of like someone that we really agree with in so many ways and yet not agree with.

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And so it'll be a lot of fun. We're actually very excited to have him on. So let me introduce real fast. I'm Jeff, the Common Ninja.

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That's Luke, the bear. What up? And that is Marcus King Ginger, usually in the ones and twos.

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Yes. But I wanted to be on this show. You want to be on this? I wanted to be here for this show. So kudos to you for getting this guest.

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One of my favorite people. Yeah. Really, really interesting. This this last election year has been just absolutely nuts.

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And I can't imagine it actually even being a possibility in like around 1776 that people would be saying the things that people are saying and doing the things people are doing.

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And the fact that the populace would actually be going along with it is absolutely insane.

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So let me go ahead and make the introduction again. Very excited to have him on. We are going. Let me just let me read it to you.

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OK, let me read this to you because it's so cool. This is his it's on the front page of his website.

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Ready? And something we talk about a lot taking this is a presidential candidate, a libertarian presidential candidate, 2016.

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This is the front page of his website, right? Taking over the government. And you're like, well, that sounds like just about everybody who's running for president right now.

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Right. Like that. Yeah. Well, that's what they want. Right. Like. And it says, ready to leave everyone alone.

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So I'm like, well, that's your job if you're the president of the States, right? Get in there and now go away.

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Leave everyone the heck alone and make everyone else leave us the heck alone. All right. So we have on, believe it or not,

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Austin Peterson. This is from his website. Austin Peterson is a constitutional libertarian who believes in economic freedom and personal liberty.

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Peterson's passion for limited government led him to a job at the Libertarian National Committee in 2008 and then eventually to the

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Atlas Economic Research Foundation. After fighting for liberty in our nation's capital, Peterson took a job as an associate producer for Judge Andrew Napolitano's show

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Freedom Watch on the Fox Business Network After the show's cancellation, Austin returned to D .C. to work for the

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Tea Party institution Freedom Works and subsequently started his own business venture Stonegate LLC and a popular national news magazine,

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Libertarian Republic. So we have on first time on Apologia TV, Austin Peterson.

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Thank you so much, sir, for joining us. Thank you for having me. Of course. All right. How unique. And here's let's just go ahead and talk about the elephant in the room.

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Let's talk about the elephant. OK, let's do it. We got a libertarian candidate. Yes. We actually like, man, when I listen to this man,

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I'm like, good. Yes. Right. My son and I were like, yeah, my son, my son on the way in, he was like, you're not really having

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Austin Peterson. I was like, yeah. He's like, no stinking way. He wore a suit today. He even got dressed up.

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He has his suit. You know, it's really funny if I can talk about Sage real quick. Jeff actually went to Sage and said, hey, how's

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Austin? And Sage was like, Austin's like the best candidate out there. He's like, let me tell you about Austin Peterson.

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At least you got Sage's approval. You got Sage's approval. Sage is 16. Here's the elephant in the room, OK, Austin Peterson, amazing stuff that he stands for.

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And then he talks about it. I'm like, good gracious, this guy. Where did he come from? Right. And then you also have to consider the fact that he's an atheist.

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Right. Are you an atheist? So in order for me to be intellectually honest,

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I have to say the truth is, is that I'm agnostic. Because an atheist says there definitely is no

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God. But I don't believe in a higher power to the same way I don't believe in any other form of magic or mysticism or spiritualism or anything that's supernatural.

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I'm very much a materialist. Gotcha. Gotcha. Good. OK, so so that's what makes it so compelling, right?

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Right. You got a Christian and an atheist going, yeah, we're seeing things in many ways the same way. That's right.

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So I want to get to know you, Austin. And so I got to watch a clip that you had,

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I forget where you had this discussion, but it was great. And you talked about your move to libertarianism.

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And I'd love for people to hear that. So can you talk about that? Well, yeah. So when I was a little boy, my mother and father sent me out into the fields to grow chrysanthemums.

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And then I would take the chrysanthemums and once they bloomed and sell them to the people of my small town.

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And so that was how I learned about free market capitalism, is, you know, working out of the fields alongside my father.

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And my father was a Green Beret and special forces, loved his country, very patriotic, believed in fiscal conservatism.

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And I, as I grew older and I evolved, I came in contact with the world and I started to have a more liberal social view, right?

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Not in the sense that I want to force people, force association, but I, I believe in things like gay marriage.

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I do believe in things that things like ending the war on drugs, for example, that would be a little less of a conservative worldview.

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So when I realized that there was something that was fiscally conservative and socially liberal, then

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I discovered what libertarianism was. And you don't have to be socially liberal to be a libertarian, by the way. All you have to do is believe in that maxim that I, that I posted on my website, which is leave everyone alone as long as you're not harming anyone, right?

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As long as it doesn't spook the cows, it should be allowed. And so government shouldn't be in the business of condoning someone's lifestyle or licensing someone's lifestyle or regulating someone's lifestyle as long as they're not harming anyone else.

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And that's really what a libertarian is. Interesting. Very good. All right. So I think what I'd like to do is I want to talk about some of the things that you talk about.

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You know, it is my actually surprised you, Austin. We are, we're pretty like Orthodox, you know, like historic

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Christians. We're in, we're actually, we're like, you might, you might really like us, Austin, because we're in the stream of the

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Puritans in many ways and the Puritan thought and like the New England pulpit, what gave us 1776, like the, the kind of worldview that, that led into all that we have.

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We're also against the war on drugs. And that's what I was going to get to. That might surprise you. We are very against the war on drugs.

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We, we think that how we handle that in our nation today is unjust. It's definitely not something that you would see in biblical law, a war on drugs, like a government war on drugs.

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And so those kinds of freedoms, you know, where we're at today is just completely unjust. So we fully agree with you there on, on that.

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And so here's what I think would be good to do. Let's, let's do it this way. We got about a minute left here. And when we come back, we're actually going to play through some of the highlights from when

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Austin Peterson was on the Fox business, libertarian debate. And in that debate, he went against Gary Johnson and oh,

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McAfee. What's his first name again? John McAfee. John McAfee. Okay. Which was interesting. I couldn't believe like, what's this guy doing there?

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I'm still trying to figure out what Gary Johnson was doing there, but you know, that's right. That's right. No. I think we're all trying to figure that out.

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Yeah. So what we'll do is we'll come back. We're going to play through some of this stuff because some of the stuff that Austin says is just awesome.

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And then, uh, let's have a good talk about it. So what we're going to do right now is come back. I want to point everybody to apologiaradio .com,

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A P O L O G I A radio .com. You can go there. You can get all the podcasts, download the, those.

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We did cover a wide spectrum of issues there from, uh, law, government, theology. We talk about current movies and films and just, we have a lot of fun.

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You can go there. You can get that as well. All that's up right now. Apologiaradio .com. You just partner with us and you get all that content and you support all the work that we're doing.

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We'll be right back with Libertarian candidate, Austin Peterson. I want to ask for y 'all good friends of ours to go out and click that button there and become my friends on the book face,

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I also want to tell you, we talk about apologetics and theology and we do a lot of swing dancing and we make a delicious chicken crave.

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Apologiaradio .com. All right.

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Back with Apologia TV, Luke the Bear, Marcus King Ginger and on with former presidential

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Libertarian presidential candidate, Austin Peterson. And what I want to do is actually run through a few things that Austin said in the

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Fox business Libertarian debate. Here's some highlights. Yeah. First off.

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Thank you very much. Can I say real fast, just before we start this, how annoying was that buzzer? I thought it was like a fire alarm going off.

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When I first heard it, I was like, was a fire alarm going off? Someone fix that. And it's just completely like annoying and inappropriate, like they couldn't find a better way to do that.

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Okay. Here we go. Sorry. I'm sorry. That's my two cents. Okay. John. And thank you to Fox business for hosting this forum. I was born in independence,

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Missouri. I was raised on a horse farm and peculiar. Just a short drive from a town called Liberty. Coincidence.

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I'll let you guys be the judge. I learned about economic Liberty when my parents sent me out into the fields to plant chrysanthemums and sell them to the people of my small town.

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I learned about personal Liberty from those who taught me about the golden rule. I believe that people are inherently good and that they can be trusted with freedom and that that freedom should be as expansive as possible.

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The role of government is to protect our Liberty, not our security. That's what the second amendment is for.

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I'm the grassroots candidate with a real national campaign. I have an army of freedom ninjas at my back who have been volunteering for me and financing me the entire way.

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I'm the fiscally conservative candidate with $0 of campaign debt, and I've budgeted my funds in the same manner that I would govern.

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I am proving that you can do more with less. I may be the youngest candidate in this race, but I'm the oldest in libertarian years.

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I'm the anti -establishment candidate in this anti -establishment party. I'm here to shake things up and inspire a generational

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Liberty movement now and into the future. I believe that I'm the only candidate on this stage who can inspire a coalition of libertarians, conservatives, reasonable

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Democrats, and independents to win. I'm pro -life, pro -constitution, and pro -freedom.

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My plan is to take over the government so I can leave everyone alone. Thank you. The revolution continues. Thank you.

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Oh, that was, that was a really cool opening. And so, uh, and what I really appreciated when

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I first heard it was you called them freedom ninjas. And I thought it just, how wonderful is that to have a guy that's running for president using the word ninja in his speech.

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You're probably the first person in the history of presidential debates, uh, Austin that actually used the word ninja. So yeah.

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Very unique. First there. Yeah. What's up ninjas. What's up my ninjas. Okay. So here's the thing.

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I want to hear, hear, hear you talk to, to this issue. You say so many things, Austin, that resonate with us.

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Like you talk about the golden rule and you talk about being pro -life and you talk about all these things that just did just draw us right into that conversation with you.

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Um, and I, so what it sounds like is that we're saying so many of the same things and I'm, here's what

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I want. Here's what I want to happen. I want people to follow the things that you're saying to get into the revolution and to start loving liberty again and to hate injustice and the things that have happened.

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But how, how do you think that that will take place? How, what, what has to happen for that to take place from your perspective?

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Oh, well it's going to take evangelicals like yourself and myself to spread the message and that's going to mean that we have to use the tools that you're using right now to do an end run around things like the mainstream media that don't want to let an unfiltered, unvarnished version of liberty get out to the masses.

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Because for a lot of these people, and I'm not really a conspiracy theorist, but it goes against their interests when somebody is out there advocating against subsidies for the dairy business, for example.

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Did you know that the government is buying something like, like $12 million worth of cheese from dairy farmers?

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I mean, the federal government is buying cheese in order to keep dairy farmers in business. And if you watch a lot of these television segments frequently at the bottom, you'll see that they're sponsored by, you know, the

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Summit Association or whatever. So you're going to have a problem when there's an intersection of the fact that a lot of these big sponsors don't want to talk about limited government solutions.

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Also there's a problem on, that's, that's outside of us in the liberty movement. But what's internally the problem

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I think is that we are sometimes are not very good listeners because we have all the solutions. We have all the answers.

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We're nerds and we've read all the lit, right? But the problem is, is that the American people haven't done all the research, but they have all these problems that could potentially be solved with libertarian solutions.

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However, they can't get a word in edgewise because we filibuster and we just tell them their status and we're not very good evangelicals because we're more interested in purging the world of vice and sin rather than going in and healing our friend's wound.

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So we've got to, we've got to be better good Samaritans. And I use these biblical terminologies because I was raised very religious and in a

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Christian home. So, and I've read the Bible about six times the way through. And so I think it's important for us who believe in the golden rule to not only be expository about our beliefs, but we also need to practice what we preach.

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So we've got to be good listeners and good Samaritans. You know what I love about you Austin? I love that you have not been able to shake your

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Christianity. You haven't been able to shake it loose. It's, it's, it's, it's philosophy, it's literature.

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I mean, the Bible has parts of philosophy and I think they're stories, right? To me, they're parables. And the idea is that you're supposed to learn a lesson from the parable.

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I don't take the Bible literally. I just think that there, there are lessons to be learned from that. And, and I mean, even

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Muslims take lessons from the Bible, take lessons from the Bible. And so there's, there's all, there's, there's a very universal, there are universal themes in the

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Bible that if you don't know the Bible, you don't understand Western civilization because that's what

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Western civilization is based on. Austin, you need to come to Jesus, man. You do, you do,

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I'm just going to say, you need to, you need to come to Jesus and we will fight this fight. So here's from our perspective, like here's, and you tell me, tell me what you think.

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So the, the reason people like today will hear someone like you and you sound so foreign, like the fact that you talk about like welfare state and it being a problem and like really needing to handle that issue and then get people off of that and the government shouldn't be involved in that level they are right now.

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You have these conversations and people in today's culture, Austin, they're like, but I want like, but I, but I need that and, and I don't want to have to work.

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And so here's the thing. I would say the answer to the problem is people have larceny in their hearts. They, they love to take from others and that's a deep seated issue where they don't respect the property and rights and money of other people and they say, well,

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I want what you have. And so I think that the problem is deep seated. Obviously as a Christian, we say, well, that's a, that's a problem of sin.

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We love, we love other people's stuff and so that's why we have that problem largely in society today.

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And I love what you just said, man, like, and I love that you do have a sense, an innate sense of entitlement.

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If you give a mouse a cookie, they're going to ask for a glass of milk. I have that book. I have that book. I've read that book too.

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It's true. It's true. Okay. So people will behave that way. However, if you give them an option, if they, if they choose to take something that's available, that's free, then next to something that belongs to someone else, they're going to do the right thing.

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They're going to take the thing that they know they can take versus what they think they shouldn't. But the problem is, is that because we have taken away the bounty, we've taken out, we have taken away the, the horn of plenty because now everybody's just scratching to scrabbling to survive.

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So if you give someone a, a decision between stealing a loaf of bread or starving, they're going to steal the loaf of bread every time capitalism creates the horn of plenty.

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It creates the cornucopia. It creates the excess that allowed the pilgrims to have the

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Turkey and the Thanksgiving feast. That's where the holiday comes from. It was because they had a bounty because they were allowed to own their own private property.

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And then once they were allowed to own their own private property, rather than living under a communal system, when they lived under a private property system, there was so much overflow that they had a

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Thanksgiving feast. And so everybody on Thanksgiving, everybody who wants to eat Turkey on Thanksgiving, if you live in the

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United States, nobody goes hungry on Thanksgiving that doesn't want to. Food kitchens are open. Everyone is opening up the generosity and the gratitude of their hearts.

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And that's because we as Americans innately have that very generous spirit. But when you take from labor of the mouth, the bread that it's earned, then you're going to have people doing desperate things and they're going to behave when they when they feel desperate or when they're put in desperate situations, they will act desperately.

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When the Titanic starts to go down, it's not every it's not, you know, it's not women for when children first anymore.

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It's every man for himself. And so we see society degrading because we have an every man for himself attitude because government has destroyed our economy.

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And because public schools are teaching your worldview. Right. Here's what

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I'm saying. Watch in Austin. This is I love you. And so I mean, it's in a playful kind of gracious way.

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I want to receive it that way. If you think about it for a second, you sound so Christian. It's it's like mind boggling.

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And you don't sound like the materialist that you say you are. I am. I am. The thing is, is that I use metaphors and analogies and parables to tell the story is because I think that that's a more powerful way to express a message.

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And because most people in Western civilization identify with things like the Bible. the Bible and the golden rule, I think those are useful tools.

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If I was preaching to a Muslim audience, I would contact them. Hang on to that. I want to hear what you say to the Muslim. Come out to break. This is fantastic.

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Austin Peterson, this is a blessing. Be right back. Apology on Radio .com. The goal for New St.

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Andrews College, as it trains its students, is not to make people who will be able to go out and just get jobs, people who will just be bricks in the wall of our society.

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The goal for New St. Andrews College is to make students into men and women who will really impact culture.

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If so what is a philosophically devastating critique of your world view, it is not a world view you should hold on to any longer.

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Virginia Tech, 2007. So what? 32 children, kids, students are killed.

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So what? Andrea Yates, 2001, killed her four children. So what? No, we're not baby eaters.

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So what? All right, back with Austin Peterson, former Libertarian presidential candidate, 2016.

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Really a fascinating discussion. You know, I loved to I kept catching it in a lot of the things that I was watching from you,

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Austin. I kept catching, you know, your history. And that's what this is what's fascinating to me.

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My son loves the things that you talk about. And he's he's just a history ninja. He loves particularly

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American history, loves to talk about the world view and the things that were happening, the things that were being preached from the pulpits.

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And that's why they all believed what they believed. And he just loves it. That's why he loves what you talk about. But you have you seem to have a pretty good, decent grasp on the history of our nation and its origins in a way that it's clear to me the current people who are running for this position and you got

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Trump, you got Clinton, they don't have that understanding that you have. So can you talk about that for a second?

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You have a grasp of it seems the history, the world view of this nation, which gave it its its rise.

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And that's that feeds in a lot to your positions. Remember, it's all about crafting the narrative.

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So if you are trying to win public office as president, the United States, you're going to want to try and lift up the people who are of your ideological lineage.

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And you're going to try and create them as heroes. And you're going to vilify all of the people who were heroes to the other side.

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So Hillary Clinton is going to want to vilify people like Dale Carnegie or JPMorgan Chase or any of the they call them robber barons back in the during the oil boom of the late 1880s.

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But that was one of the most libertarian periods of American history, Grover Cleveland. But but now history has been rewritten by the progressives and they call it the instead of calling it the

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Gilded Age, they call it the age of robber barons because they said it was free markets and unfettered free market capitalism.

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That was the problem. But it was the same problem back then with with government licensing and regulation and that that was blocking that was creating the types of monopolies that we see, such as like the

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EpiPen, for example. So this is the huge problem is, is that there is just one person who are the one company that manufactures this

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EpiPen and they say, well, this is the problem is that the free market capitalists have cornered the market. No, actually, anybody can create that.

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It's just the government through FDA regulations and through all of the years of study and testing that they force other companies to go through, that that's how they get protected.

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So this one company essentially has a monopoly because they're protected by the FDA and the regulations. But when you look at history, history has been one long march of tyranny and of loss of liberty.

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It's only been with the American experiment that we've had a tiny, tiny experiment with with human liberty in representative government.

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But as we've seen sometimes even representative government can be very tyrannical. And it's not really a democratic government because we have a constitutional republic.

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That's right. People people talk about, oh, you have a right to vote, right? You have a right to vote. Well, do you have a right to vote to take away my free speech?

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Right. You have a right to vote to take away my my freedom of religion. Actually, no, you don't have a vote on that.

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So sometimes tyranny can sometimes be systemic. But sometimes tyranny in itself, it can be outside of the system as well.

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It can be something that that people yearn for, because like you said earlier, like larceny in people's hearts, there is kind of a desire to subjugate your your neighbor, because if they use a vape, for example, well, this is undesirable.

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So what are we going to do? We're going to pass a tax or regulation on vaping. And maybe the people who are lobbying to get rid of vapes, maybe the people who actually do it are concerned moms against vaping.

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But who's funding them? Because people like it's right, right. But it's people like it's people of big tobacco.

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They're going to put the money in the coffers so that the moms can come out and cry. Well, what about the children? OK, so here's here's the thing.

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You you said something that I think because I listen, Austin, I want you, someone like you and the things that you say to be heard by others.

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But it's interesting because like you say, people are inherently good. Now, I think it's interesting hearing a materialist say something like that, because if we're all matter in motion and stardust, there's no absolute standard of good.

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I would say I want to have a conversation with you maybe over dinner. But what's interesting is that the former the framers of the

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Constitution Bill of Rights, they had a different perspective, though. They said that men are not angels.

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And because men are not angels, a constitution is necessary. They understood like this inherently people are.

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That's tyranny exists because people are ultimately fallen. We're sinners. And that and I want to communicate this to you as a friend.

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And again, I would love to sit down, have dinner with you and just talk about these things, because I think what you say is wonderful. That the perspective is and this is the perspective of the founders.

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And even if you weren't a Christian, this was in the air is that people are fallen were sinners were corrupt. And we would go off into tyranny.

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And that's the glory of the gospel. But that's another reason why I reject Christianity is because it does see man as fallen and I see man as inherently good.

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Right. I mean, I would take Satan's side in the battle of good and evil on that one. But when it comes to when it comes to people being inherently good,

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I mean, most people aren't murderers. When you say we need a government because people are inherently bad. Well, not all people are inherently bad.

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And so we need a limited government because a limited amount of people are very bad. And so if you have a limited government that can restrain the people who are who are committing acts of larceny or murder.

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So murder happens every single day. But in terms per capita, most people don't get murdered.

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Most people aren't involved in a murder. Most people are not involved in a robbery, for example. Most people aren't thieves.

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Most people choose to buy things rather than to steal them. So the great majority of people are good because if they weren't, then the free market would never work because everybody would just steal from each other.

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And we would return to an anarchic state of nature where it was every man for himself. Strongest, strongest may survive.

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Well, that's because let's say that people are good. The civilization has arisen. Well, let's go to that's a good. That's a good thing, because I want to get to the core of this to see how does this revolution begin?

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What's good from a materialist perspective? Why is it wrong to murder? Why do we tell people in society, don't murder, don't don't steal?

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Why from a materialist perspective? Because, see, I think that's where the wheels sort of come off where we can't get traction, because if people fundamentally disagree with you on origins and absolutes, they you know, you're

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I'm with you and everything you're saying. But if they'll say, well, like, why shouldn't I want to take someone else's stuff? Like, what's what's you know, why?

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Why should you care if I murder? Who made you who made you authority over me or a leader over me to tell me that I can't do such and such?

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Because the things that you're appealing to seem to be absolute standards that don't really fit with the materialism that you you have deep down.

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And so that well, I don't know what the last thing I want to do, though, is just say that I'm being good because somebody is watching over my shoulder or that somebody is.

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The only reason why I'm not committing a crime is because somehow knowing all powerful God is going to punish me in an afterlife. That's not virtue.

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Just yeah, we don't believe that either. You don't get credit for doing it and for doing the right thing just because you're being watched.

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You get credit for doing the right thing when no one's watching. So to me, if you're trying to explain to someone in terms of absolute standards, you're not going to find an absolute standard.

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I mean, I mean, even the absolute standards that religious people agree on. I mean, there's quite a few denominations of Christianity.

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So there's so so even Christianity doesn't agree completely on absolute standards other than the fact that Christ is the son of God.

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And by accepting him, you will be redeemed. But again, that's only the that's only the the heretics that split off of the

27:50

Catholic Church. But again, when it comes to my version of morality or virtue,

27:56

I believe that virtue exists because life in it in itself is virtuous and that the protecting and the advancement of human life is what

28:03

I believe to be the ultimate virtue and that the spreading and that the dividing of ourselves and that the continuation of human life is a positive force in the universe.

28:13

So if I can say at least that something is a positive, then I might also say that thing is a good.

28:19

So if something contributes more to human flourishing and thriving, then I think that's going to be a good if something comes along like abortion, which

28:26

I believe is the opposite of human thriving is the ending of human life. I'm going to say that that's going to be a negative towards life.

28:31

That's going to be a bad and that's going to be the opposite of virtuous. So I take a pro -life stance as a secular humanist because I believe that life in itself is a good as a positive.

28:40

And so that which advances human life is should be encouraged and that which detracts from it should be should be shunned.

28:47

Yeah. And I know I appreciate that. And I love your pro -life position. And I think, you know, you and Christopher Hitchens, Christopher Hitchens, one of my favorite atheists in history, really take the same position on the pro -life issue, which

28:58

I really, really appreciate. I see just a lot of consistency in your thinking there. But like this is, I think, again, like where the inconsistency comes in, where I think like,

29:05

OK, like we're not attacking the right issue is again, if we have a view that I mean, let's let's be honest.

29:12

Granted, I mean, this is the view of origins that our children, our public schools are getting on a daily basis.

29:18

If all of us came from the soup, if we're all stardust, as Carl Sagan says, if our ancestors were bacteria and we've evolved in an unpurposed and ungoverned universe to get to where we're at today, then there really is no use speaking about things like are good or oughts or life is valuable at all, because it's really an arbitrary distinction to say this is valuable and that is not.

29:40

I mean, I'm with you on life being valuable and needing to be protected. And I think you're consistent there in the area of pro -life and stuff.

29:46

But I think your perspective doesn't allow to have the force necessary to really draw people.

29:54

So here's what I would say, and I want you to respond to that. I want you to know Jesus. And the issue is,

30:01

I think, sin. And Jesus is God and he was perfect and he died and rose again. And I think if we come to him and know him, our hearts are changed and then we love the things that you're talking about.

30:10

Here's what I'm saying. When you talk, Austin, I'm like literally shouting. I was like shouting last night.

30:16

I was like, preach, Austin, preach. But that's because my heart's been changed and I long for the things that you talk about.

30:23

I so I reject the concept of sin. I don't you know, again, I reject the concept of man has fallen.

30:28

And and the problem is, is that that since I don't believe that there is a higher power and because I don't believe that that that you can use like the

30:37

Bible necessarily as authority, then then you you're forcing me to be a nihilist.

30:43

In essence, you're like, you must be a nihilist. If you are, you must not believe that there is any point to all of this. And the thing is, is that just because I don't know doesn't mean that, you know, the problem is, is that it's that it's not a black or white issue.

30:56

And the the problem is, is that I can't prove that there is no God, but you can't prove that there is a

31:01

God. In essence, we both have to be agnostic in order to be intellectually honest. I can say I don't believe that there's a

31:08

God the same way. I don't believe that there's any other magical forces out there. But again, you're the one who makes the the claims, the positive claim.

31:16

And I can't prove a negative. I can't disprove a negative. But when it comes to my question, the question of whether or not

31:21

I believe in some form of positive morality and what I base that in. Again, it's a life positive viewpoint.

31:27

And if all we have is life, because that's what I believe all we have, that's that we are here is the way to you for the universe to know itself.

31:34

Then being that those observational beings to me is is courageous, like being alive and choosing to live as an act of courage.

31:42

Otherwise, what would we choose to stay here? If we had any pain or any suffering coming along, we would just end it. But I think that there is a human yearning for something.

31:49

That's probably where I think religion comes from, is that there is a yearning to reach out beyond our meager lives, beyond the lifespan of the meager lifespan of humanity.

31:58

Everybody has that urge. But just because there's an urge for it doesn't necessarily mean that there's something there.

32:04

Humans have all sorts of instincts that lead us wrong. Humans, actually, we can only see certain types of light.

32:09

There's all sorts of spectrums of light that exists that humans can't even see. But that doesn't mean that there's a supernatural reason for it.

32:16

Well, that's a natural. That's a good point, too. I think to talk about there in terms of looking for consistency,

32:22

I think, you know, when you talk about the things that you do, I don't think they comport with the materialism. And so that's why

32:28

I think like there needs to be a change, a heart change and something needs to take place to put real, a firm foundation on this.

32:35

But like you, that's a great point, Austin. When you say just because the urge is there doesn't mean that it's true.

32:40

And I think it's the same way when you say human beings are naturally good and they have an urge to do good and to value life.

32:46

That's an urge doesn't mean that it's true. There's a lot of people that love destruction. They love misery. They love to hurt and to wound.

32:52

They love to steal from people with welfare systems and things like that. That's their urge. And I think if you don't have,

32:59

I would say, of course, the God of the Bible, you don't have an absolute foundation to point to beyond yourself and your preferences.

33:05

It's just preferences. Your preference is one way. Somebody else is another. And so what I'm saying is this an encouragement. Austin, I'd love it if you and I got together.

33:12

If you ever came to Phoenix, I'd buy you dinner. And yeah, I'd love to have these discussions because you the things that you say are amazing.

33:20

All right. Well, OK, one question for you, though. Like here's the thing. If if you let's say you had a child and you told them that they had to be good because somebody was watching over them.

33:30

I don't believe that. But you knew that that that that someone or something wasn't real. Do you think that's the right thing to do to tell people something that's not true?

33:39

But what if it changes their behavior for the good? Yeah, I reject that. I would reject that outright. And I know the noble eyes.

33:46

A lot of people would know a lot of people are atheists oftentimes. And agnostics and materialists will often make that argument like the because big brother is watching the

33:54

Chris Rich and Jesus argument often because big brother is watching like that's no basis for morality.

33:59

And I would agree with that. But that's, again, not the biblical worldview. Christians don't say we ought to do this or that because big brother is watching.

34:06

We say ultimately we're in the image of God, have inherent value and dignity and worth. And on that basis, we reflect the image of God.

34:14

And when we say something is good, it's because it's consistent with God's character. God is love.

34:20

Love does no harm to its neighbor. So the basis of morality from a Christian perspective isn't because God will smack you down or because God is watching you as big brother.

34:29

It's because ultimately we're image of God made to reflect God and his goodness and righteousness and goodness and truth is based upon the character of God.

34:38

And so that's what I tell my kids. Well, if I wanted to get rich, I would start a religion and I would tell people things that weren't true because I know man is incredulous.

34:47

This is where we get things, religions like Scientology, for example. Absolutely. That's a cult. And and there have been charlatans throughout history who have come in the name of God, because when you again, when you cannot disprove the claims that someone is making, the fantastic claims that someone proved, then you you again, you can get the incredulous to get on board.

35:08

So as a charlatan, a problem, let me ask you that as a charlatan. And you're a materialist.

35:14

But then but we have charlatans who also say that the state is God. They say that the state can solve our problems or provide us with health care.

35:21

You know, I'm a skeptic on both of these. We call them state theists, atheists, atheists.

35:29

But they they they're charlatans as well, because they believe that an all knowing, all loving, you know, benevolent, democratic

35:36

God can provide for all, you know, can create the 30 lows and fishes. And I just happen to believe that both are, you know, why is why?

35:45

I think I'm going to say, yeah, true. I think that you're losing your punch, though, in your argument when you don't have

35:50

God as your foundation, though, Austin, because being a charlatan isn't a problem from a materialist perspective.

35:56

We're all just stardust that you have. You have an arbitrary. You have an arbitrary. I do believe in a law.

36:02

I mean, we have natural law, right? So how do you justify that as a materialist? How do you justify an appeal to law that others should follow as a materialist?

36:10

Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. And you see that you see that in in the way that we administrate law.

36:16

So there is a bit there is a bit sort of an eye for an eye method to our justice system.

36:22

If you steal from someone, they're actually literally is because it was based on the Bible. Right. Right. So exactly.

36:28

So there's so what you see in the law is that when you misbehave, you will have mischief brought back onto you.

36:34

Retribution, retribution and justice is as natural as anything. So if you if retribution and justice occurs naturally in the marketplace, then

36:43

I don't need some supernatural definition to claim it as an authority because because the earth itself, you know, authoritatively punishes people who act out.

36:52

Yeah, I would say I would say I would disagree. I think that's an inconsistency right there. I don't think retribution and justice occur naturally in the marketplace.

37:00

Many times, like on Wall Street, people do what they want to do and they do what will hurt others and they do things that are ultimately evil.

37:08

And they don't it's not loving to their neighbor. And and when we look at eBay, eBay is a perfect example.

37:15

If you go on eBay and you and you're a seller and you screw over enough people, sooner or later, the marketplace is going to reject.

37:22

No, I agree with that. No, I know. I think you're misunderstanding. And I agree with that. It's self -corrects. Capitalism is from Jesus.

37:29

So I'm for capitalism. But I mean, in the sense that the the actual act itself, if someone gets away with it, right, and nobody catches them and they get it, they get away with it.

37:40

That actual act itself, is it evil? If they don't get corrected, as it has, it harms someone else.

37:47

Then I would say, yes. Why is that wrong? To to harm someone else. We're stardust.

37:52

Our ancestors were fish. Well, I think, you know, we're a little bit more evolved past stardust at this point.

37:59

So are rocks. Yeah. Well, because I think that if you're harming another human being, then you're then you're causing suffering.

38:05

If you're causing suffering, then you're committing an act that we would call evil. So what? But. Well, I mean, you know, again, you don't start an animal, be not.

38:14

So if you start talking trash, you might get slapped across the face. I do. Yeah. And that might be justice.

38:20

Well, what I'm saying is, is I love you. I love the things you say. And this is one of those this is one of those moments.

38:26

I think there needs to be more oomph in your step and in your message. And I think that is what you know.

38:31

But I don't here's the thing. I don't mean to be patronizing, but I mean, like, can I just is it possible? Can I make up an authority on the spot?

38:38

And now I'm a higher authority and say to you that this no false gods don't work. Like I. Well, but I mean, if I if I call, let's say

38:45

I called him the flying spaghetti monster. And I we I would say we were touched by his noodley appendage.

38:50

We can say that my authority states in my holy book that this is actually an act of evil.

38:57

I can tell you love Dawkins. I can tell you love Dawkins. And it's not really. He's kind of turned into a jerk in his old age.

39:02

It's kind of he has a big he has a big meaning. You are right. You are right. You are a a wonderful, wonderful man in this respect.

39:11

And I agree with you. I prefer honey to vinegar, but I can be all these flavors. And he always chooses salty.

39:18

Right. So I would prefer to to, you know, to be a little bit sweeter. This is this interesting is is watch this because I'm trying to show you.

39:25

I think there's an inconsistency here. And you can have more oomph and punch and everything else. If you were not only if you knew

39:32

God and you were forgiven. But listen, listen, listen. Go against my conscience. Right. Well, and that's not a problem. You're your ancestor.

39:38

It's not a problem to go against your conscience when you are the descendant of bacteria. But but watch this. You look what you have to do, though.

39:44

You in order to actually create an argument against the Christian God, you have to become a follower of the spaghetti monster to create.

39:52

No longer be a materialist. You have to start creating another world that might be able to argue against the Christian God. And so this is like, man,

39:59

Austin, I want you to know Jesus, dude. I do. I do. And I think Jesus was a great guy.

40:05

And I think he was definitely misunderstood in lots of ways. And I think that also that that Christians have twisted a lot of his words.

40:15

And I think it's I'm reminded of the quote by Gandhi. You know, I like your Christ, but I do not care for your

40:20

Christians there. So I'm like your Christ. You are you. You sound like you. Man, I like you. You sound like a

40:26

Puritan. You have this moral indignation of a Puritan, but not the worldview to back it up.

40:31

So here's what I want to do. Listen, Austin, if you ever come, if you ever come to Phoenix, dude, you got to come to you got to come here and you're going to come to the studio.

40:40

We're going to hang out and then we're going to take you out to the most amazing restaurant. It's really amazing. We're going to we got to do it, man.

40:45

If you come out to Phoenix, we got to do it because we'll have some spaghetti or we'll have fish.

40:53

Some of our ancestors. Right. So we'll just 30 loaves. OK, so here's here's no,

40:59

I really want to offer that. If you ever come to Phoenix, we've got to make it happen. I'd love to take you out to dinner. I'd love to have you in this in this room, because this

41:05

I mean this sincerely. When I say this to you, I want the things that you talk about. I want people to start accepting them.

41:13

And so I, I, I'm like your I'm your cheerleader when you say some of these things.

41:18

And I want you to know, I want you to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and eternal life. And so, dude, you are invited.

41:25

I want to take you out to dinner. I want to hang out and get to know you. And maybe we can go to a vape shop together and choose some juice. Awesome, man.

41:31

Sounds good. I really appreciate the invite on the show. Absolutely. Dude, you've been awesome. Thanks for having fun with us, man. Thank you. Thanks so much, man.

41:37

God bless, brother. All right. Luke, the bear, King Ginger on the ones and twos normally.

41:43

But he wanted to be on this show. Had to be on this show. All right, guys, so you guys can catch more at Apologia Radio dot com.

41:51

I really loved Austin. He is really fun to have on. And just a real just a real blessing, man. Hey, guys, seriously, check out the debate, the libertarian debate with the three guys,

42:00

Gary Johnson, McAfee and then Peterson. I mean, listen to the stuff that he says. And dude,

42:06

I got to say this. There's a point in the debate where they're bringing up his age. Oh, yeah. Right.

42:11

They're like laughing about his age. And he came back with the most the sweetest comeback. It was like it was like Mike drop over and over.

42:19

He knew the ages of some of our founders, like the legit like heroes.

42:26

He starts dropping their age like twenty five. And he was like, so I'm constitutionally of age to run for president.

42:34

And here's our heroes. Here's how old they were. Drop the mic. And then he says, watch. He says it was young people that started the revolution in this country.

42:43

And he says it's young people. They're going to get it back. That is amazing. So Apologia Radio dot com, guys.