Counseling Series: Marriage and Parenting

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00:03

I want to bring you back in. I want to ask you one burning question. You're a biologist. I have two biologists here.

00:09

I have a burning question that has been asked recently. I'm wondering if you can help out with. I know that this can't be answered by Supreme Court justices.

00:19

What is a woman? Oh, you do not want me to go down this road because sex determination and development,

00:28

I mean, Dr. Jensen is probably more familiar with developmental biology than I am, but that's a really complicated question, especially when you consider the complexities of human biology.

00:39

Look, I actually do, I talk in class about sex determination, chromosomal determinants, hormonal determinants, genetic determinants.

00:46

What determines sex? See, that's, there's no short, there is no answer to that question that I could answer in the time that we have tonight.

00:56

Really? It is a really complicated question. It is a really complicated question.

01:02

So it's not a question of chromosome X versus Y. 100 % no. 100 % no.

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You can ask me the question 12 different ways if you want, but you're going to get the same answer each time. I don't think it's all that complex.

01:15

I would answer it very simply. A woman is what God who created the women defines it as.

01:21

God created her, he gets to give the definition. So it's a woman is what God calls a woman. This is

01:29

Apologetics Live. To answer your questions, your host from Striving for Eternity Ministries, Andrew.

01:44

We are live, Apologetics Live here to answer your most challenging questions that you have about God and the

01:51

Bible. If you think you have a question we just can't possibly answer, or you just have a burning question, you can go to ApologeticsLive .com,

02:01

join us here. Just remember when you give me some really tough question, just remember that I don't know is a perfectly good answer.

02:09

You may not find it satisfactory, but it is. I loved that intro that was from a

02:14

Rutgers biology professor who just threw out centuries of science and even, well, centuries of common sense and decades or hundreds of years of science ever since we knew about an

02:28

X and Y chromosome. And we said that was how we determined it. Well, just throw that all out because now we know better.

02:35

So let me bring in my kind of co -host again is

02:42

Dan Kraft. How are you, sir? I don't know. After that intro, if I were not a believer,

02:53

I would say there is no hope for humanity. Yeah, it's just amazing.

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He teaches biology. Y. Y. You know what my pastor used to say?

03:06

I think maybe I've said this before, where there's mist in the pulpit, there's fog in the pews.

03:13

So when you have mist at the lectern, it's no wonder kids are coming out of college not knowing their left hand from their right or their

03:21

X from their Y. Yes. Yes. We should we should let folks know that Dan has joined the speakers at Striving for Eternity, our newest speaker.

03:33

What we're doing in this counseling series, we actually started it. I'm glad that Dan's here because we started it because the other two speakers that we have and many of you are familiar with Aaron Brewster and then well, he's no longer our newest speaker, but Anthony Russo.

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Many of you know, Anthony Russo, if you've been listening to Christian podcast community for long because you know him from his podcast,

03:57

Grace and Truth. But so what we actually it's

04:04

Grace and Peace, sorry, Grace and Peace radio is his podcast. So with that, we now have added

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Dan. So we having two of our speakers, Aaron and Anthony, that are both

04:19

ACBC counselors. We decided to highlight their specialty and do a series for the month of September on counseling issues.

04:30

And so Dan is coming in. He's the newest of our speakers. He he's the only speaker

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I know that instead of putting all of the people in the audience to tears, he starts by, you know, his abortion.

04:43

It was a great, it was a great message, though. It was a hard message to preach, so I think it's worth calling out.

04:52

I am certified in exactly nothing. So I don't know what

04:57

I'm doing here, but here I am. I'll tell you, I'm going to tell you, you have some you have some counseling to offer, but we'll get to that.

05:07

We're going to hold on to that for a moment. So we know that Aaron will come in later after he's done with the class he's teaching.

05:14

So let me bring in Mr. Anthony Russo. And you have someone with you.

05:20

And I do. And that is your bride, Amy Russo, who is familiar to my audience here because you've been on with me before.

05:30

We talked in the past about feminism, correct? And so that was your background.

05:38

Before I was saved. Before you were saved, you were a very, very conservative individual.

05:46

Before I was saved? Yeah, not even close. Not even close.

05:53

So we'll welcome Anthony and Amy, again, keeping with the A's. So and then

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I I'm really excited that the next guests pair of guests have agreed to do this when

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I first asked, because I'm very privileged and very happy that to have both my pastor and his wife,

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Pastor Dan and Robin Scogin on. So thank you. And now

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Pastor Dan and his wife are both ACBC counselors, Amy, you're also an ACBC counselor as well.

06:27

So it's just Dan and I that are not. What can we say? But I think

06:33

I think, you know, someone sent this actually. I do need to get to I should have done this before I got brought you guys in.

06:41

We did get a review for the podcast. Someone sent in a review, a five star review.

06:48

And this was this was just states it's from Leatherneck seven, four, seven, six.

06:59

They're in the United States and they say brilliant, brilliantly done. God has gifted this group.

07:06

I think that I think the episode was last week's. So I think but so congratulations for that, for you guys doing a great job last week because it wasn't me that they were talking about.

07:18

But Dan, you know, I think the way you and I counsel, we don't have the degrees as an

07:24

ACBC counselor, but someone had sent this last week. And I think

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I think I need to play this clip because it would help to show that are the way that I think you and I would counsel as far superior to to the way that, you know, any of these other

07:43

ACBC counselors may may counsel. But let's see how this goes, shall we?

07:50

Here's how Dan and I would counsel. Oh, is that coming through?

08:01

Yep. Oh, yeah. No audio. That's what

08:06

I was asking. So it's no audio. I mean, a little bit. Turn it up. Just going to have to read lips.

08:11

No, no, I have that. And I should say, well, while I'm doing that, I should say I thought I had that set, but I will check it.

08:19

The I do have I did the wrong one. I did make it a little bit quicker so that we can get through the six minute clip.

08:29

So here we go. Dr. Switzer. Yes, I'm just just washing my hands.

08:37

I'm Catherine Bigman. Janet Carlyle referred me. You're very delightful.

08:45

Yes. Yes, that's me. So I lay down. Oh, no, no, no, we don't. We don't do that anymore. Just just have a seat.

08:50

And let me tell you a bit about our billing. I charge five dollars for the for the first five minutes.

08:58

And that will be nothing after that. That sounds great.

09:05

Too good to be true, as a matter of fact. Well, I can I can almost guarantee you that that our session won't last for the four or five minutes now.

09:12

We don't do any insurance billing. So you would either have to pay in cash or by check.

09:18

Wow. OK. And I don't make change. All right. Go. Go.

09:29

So tell me, tell me about the problem that you wish to address. Oh, OK. Well, I have this fear of being buried alive in a box.

09:40

I'm thinking about being buried alive and I begin to panic. Has anyone ever ever tried to to bury you alive in a box?

09:50

No, no. But truly thinking about it does make my life horrible. I mean, I can't go through tunnels or be in an elevator or in a house.

09:59

Anything box. So what what you're saying is you're are you a claustrophobic? Yes. Yes, that's it.

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All right. Well, let's go. I'm I'm going to say two words to you right now. I want you to listen to them very, very carefully.

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Then I want you to take them out of the office with you and incorporate them in into your life. So I write them down.

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Well, if it makes you comfortable, it's just two words. Most we find most people can can remember that. OK. You ready?

10:29

Yes. OK. Keep you there. Stop it. Stop it.

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Stop it. Yes. S .T .O .P. New word. I .T. So what are you saying?

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You know, it's funny, I say two simple words and I cannot tell you the amount of people who say exactly the same thing you're saying.

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I mean, you know, this is not Yiddish, Catherine. This is English. Stop it. So I should just stop it.

10:59

There you go. I mean, you you don't want to go through life being scared of being buried alive in a box, do you?

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I mean, that sounds frightening. Stop it. I can't.

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I mean, it's been with me. No, no, we we don't go there. Just just stop. So I should just stop being afraid of being buried alive in a box.

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You know, it's only been it's only been three minutes, so that will be three dollars.

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I only have a five. So I don't I don't make change. And I guess

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I'll take the full five minutes. Fine. All right. Well, what other problems would you would you like to address?

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Oh, I'm bulimic. I stick my fingers down my throat. Stop it. Not of some kind.

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Don't do that. But I'm compelled to. My mom used to call me. No, no, no.

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No, we we don't go there. But I can have these dreams. No, we don't go there either. But my horoscope did say.

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We definitely don't go there. Just stop it. But what else?

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Well, I have self -destructive relationships with men. Stop it. You want to be with a man, don't you?

12:12

Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yes. Well, then stop it. Don't be such a big baby.

12:19

I wash my hands a lot. That's all right. I wash my hands all the time.

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There's a lot of germs on there. Yeah, don't don't don't worry about that. I'm afraid to drive.

12:32

Well, stop it. How are you going to get around? Get in the car and drive. You you cook.

12:40

You'll stop it. What's what's the problem? I don't like this.

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I don't like this therapy at all. You're just telling me to stop it. And you and you don't you don't like that.

12:54

No, I don't. So you think we're we're moving too fast, isn't it? Yes. Yes, I do.

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All right. And let me let me give you ten words that I think will clear everything up for you.

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You want to get a pen and a pencil for this one? All right. You ready?

13:14

Here are the ten words. You stop it or I'll bury you alive in a box. And there we go.

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So now, Dan, you're going to have to now explain why I when

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I debated. Oh, no. Yeah, let's stop that for the future.

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Yeah, well, I just saw my life flash before my eyes. So you'll have to explain why we all chuckled once the rest of you saw that.

13:50

What did you come in here with your name as? Oh, yeah. So when I when I initially joined the meeting tonight, my my name was stop it or I'll bury you alive in a box.

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And me being the only one to know what I was about to do. Oh, yeah.

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What's in that last week saying that that was their counseling? That's how I think Dan and I obviously would counsel. And I think that's a man that just gets right to the point.

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Yeah, that pretty much is like a big baby. It's not all those counseling problems. That works really well in marriage, too.

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When you tell your wife, you know, stop being a big baby. Gets right to the heart of the matter.

14:31

Yeah. For those of you watching, thanks for joining us. And have a great week. Did you spot the certified counselors in this meeting?

14:40

All right. Well, let's let's get into discussing topics that no one ever struggles with, ever has an issue with marriage.

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The process of getting two sinners together and expecting there to be no problems at all.

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So, yeah, I mean, this is when we went through and just remind folks that when we when we did this, when we came up with the topics,

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I let the four ACBC counselors that, you know, Aaron, Anthony, Dan and Robin to to say, what are the topics that come up a lot?

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And can we decide which ones to figure out the order? And so marriage and parenting came up quite a bit.

15:23

And so I guess, you know, we talk about marriage nowadays. We have to ask the question to start.

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What is marriage? Unfortunately, Dan, I think you can cover that one, though.

15:39

Oh, that's a really complicated topic. You can ask that question 12 ways to Sunday, but you're always going to get the same answer.

15:46

We don't have enough time for that. Well, I was asking you not not our record channeling your your previous guest.

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It's the two becoming one. It's what God, God joining two to two people together to become one.

16:04

Yeah, I mean, that's a biblical definition. Well, nowadays, though, we have to be more specific, a biological male to a biological female.

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Yes. You know, so we end up having to do that. I mean, this gets into the thing of and I'll ask this of Pastor Dan.

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What is the you know, what's God's design for marriage? Well, it's kind of clearly stated there in Genesis that you're to leave your mother and father cleave to your wife and become one flesh.

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So that would be those three components, leaving, weaving and cleaving. I love it right there.

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I love how every pastor has that that rhyming either alliteration or rhyme.

16:56

That's right. Yeah. From Lafayette, Indiana. Now, so let me let me ask.

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I mean, I'll put this one to to Robin and you guys, if anyone ends up having some of the one that they want to answer,

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I mean, you can always just like raise your hand or just put it in the private chat. But Robin, why why is it?

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Do you think that we have so much struggle within our marriages? Because we're not following the great commandment in Matthew chapter 22.

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Love God and love your neighbor, your neighbors, your near one. The closest near one you have is your spouse, your family, those in your sphere of influence.

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And we don't esteem others over ourself. We try to protect ourselves. We try to unwittingly look for our best interest.

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And we are the center of our world instead of God. Yeah. And so do you think that I'm trying to think how to word the question, but there seems to be within our family, we are we often treat our family a little maybe harsher sometimes than we would our coworkers.

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Why do you think that would be? Because we're with them, like getting married is like inviting the

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Holy Spirit 24 seven to see you. And the strengths like when

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Dan and I were dating Bible College, I loved this cold

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Norwegian, and I think he loved my hot Italian personality.

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And then we got married and love is blind.

18:56

Yeah, I know. And those things that actually drew us together and we found as strengths when we were dating, we found irritating.

19:09

And it was a struggle. It actually was such a struggle that it led us to take biblical counseling courses to help our own marriage first and to then help others.

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Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's it is kind of hard to counsel others on something that we're we know we're not strong in.

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But I think people don't see the log in the spec. They come in for counsel and their problems are real.

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And it's heartbreaking. But they they look at the other person's sin as greater than their own.

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And marriage is an opportunity to examine yourself. Conflict is an opportunity to examine yourself.

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Acting right when life is hard. It has benefits for ourselves to grow spiritually, for our families, example, for our community, for our church.

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They're all part of God's plan. Yeah, I remember I was at actually Cairn University, which is not far from us here, and I was having lunch with Lincoln Duncan and we were talking about marriage and he had a profound thing he said that marriage is the school for sanctification.

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He said, you know, and I said, I just turned to I said, so I guess kids are college. Yeah. And so we're going to go to school and college tonight and do it both.

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You know, Anthony, as as we think about marriage, let's start on the positive.

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What are some things we we are good? Like what would be helpful for having a good and thriving marriage?

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I mean, how do we we all want to have a good marriage, you know, a healthy marriage?

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However, there's a lot of things that seem to get in the way of that. What are we going to walk into it? Right. Like Robin just said, we walk in it and the love is blind.

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What kind of things should we be looking to do with ourselves when we come into marriage?

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Yeah, that's a that's a great question. And actually, I'm I'm going to borrow a lot from a lot of other more knowledgeable people.

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You know, first of all, scripture says a cord of three strands is not easily broken.

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So ultimately, we want to have a marriage where it's it's each spouse pursuing the

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Lord. So ultimately, that also means that we get our own heart right with the

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Lord. We've got to have the Lord in the marriage. It's it's pursuing him individually and then together.

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Also, I would just add that I know we're going to talk about resources later, but to your question,

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Ernie Baker's book, Marry Wisely, Marry Well, is a great, great book for for for preparing one's heart for the eventuality of marriage.

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You know, he makes a really good point in there that once you've fallen in love with someone, you know, you meet them and then you fall in love.

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It's it's almost too late to be able to rationally step back and even evaluate that person, evaluate yourself, evaluate your own readiness to get married.

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So that book really helps try to lay that foundation of being not only ready to marry, but also ready to be marriage material, if that makes sense.

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All right. Yeah. Now, Amy, when when you guys got married, were you already a

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Christian? We were both new Christians. I had gotten saved in 2004.

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He had gotten saved in 2005. We married in 2007. And and it's worth adding that, you know, part of my testimony is

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I was married for 13 years and had been divorced by then. And after that process is when

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I got saved. And then for me, I mean, I didn't get saved till at that time.

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It was I was 42. I'd been on my own for a while. But prior to that, I had lived with a man for 12 years.

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So we came to this marriage, you know, brand new Christians and a whole lot of life.

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Yeah. Having been lived. So we we we did it wrong the first time and had to learn how to do it right.

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Right. Yeah. And you guys had I mean, I think, Anthony, at that point, you were you were more conservative in your views.

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Were you still at that point very liberal in your views? Amy, I yeah,

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I say that I was probably the most liberal saved person at the time I was saved, but didn't really understand what that meant.

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I mean, I work for a public university. So, yeah, there was a lot to unlearn and there was a lot

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I needed to to figure out through scripture and whatnot. So that, yeah, that was a whole progressive walk there.

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So let me ask you, Amy. I mean, in that progressive walk, there's a lot of tension that I mean, being new

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Christians, but also, you know, and someone's asking about advice.

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Fatima is asking, can you please give some advice about being unequally marriages where one spouse is pursuing the

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Lord and the other is not? So, you know what? I mean, in this situation, you're you're new

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Christians. You're from a very, very different viewpoints on life, though, though both looking at Christ now.

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So how how should someone that's in a situation like that or or in an unequally marriage?

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How what are some things to do in a situation like that? Well, I think the communication is is key.

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You really have to be open and honest with one another. And talk.

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His communication style is very different from my communication style. We grew up different ways.

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You know, we had to learn how to communicate with one another. But the biggest thing that I learned is is being in the word.

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And I was even learning how to do that. But yeah, if you're not in scripture, and I would say this, even with Fatima, as far as being unequally yoked, you just need to be in the word and walk with the

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Lord closely, be in a good Bible teaching church and you keep praying for your husband.

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That's the only way that I think that you're going to. I want to say stay sane, but that's probably not the right way to put it.

26:16

Yeah. Yeah. In fact, I saw an article in the news a couple of weeks ago that a man,

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I think he was 93 or 90, and he just came to the Lord and his wife had been praying for him for 67 years.

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So, you know, while they live, we have hope, you know, and God can do anything.

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So that really just comes down to persevering in the faith and praying.

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Yeah. I mean, Pastor Dan, you and I are are kind of co -teaching through the book of First Peter together.

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And we got to chapter three. Lots of lots of discussion. Lots of questions came up.

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Yeah. What would that for someone like in Fatima's case, what would that teach us? Well, there's a couple of things that you have to be careful of, and that is you can't.

27:12

You can't push someone to salvation. You can't guilt someone into salvation. You can't manipulate or any other adjective or modifier you want to put in there.

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You can't do it. And all too often one gets saved and gets really excited.

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And then they just kind of use another cliche, browbeat their spouse. And it just doesn't work that way because it never worked that way.

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That's why Peter said that without a word, you may be able to win them over as they notice your example.

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So the greatest evidence or the greatest attraction for Christianity is seeing your spouse transform right in front of your eyes.

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They're kinder. They're gentler. Their words are changing. Their attitudes are changing.

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I mean, you just see that there's a whole demeanor change because, you know, the

28:07

Holy Spirit is working change from the inside out. Then they have a greater opportunity to say, you know, you could be a part of this, too.

28:19

Yeah, I mean, because I think that, as Amy said, and this is why we started the series, right, communication and anger, because that I think that's really we need that before we get into discussing marriage, because so much of it is so often

28:35

I find it's communication issues that people have. They bring that into the marriage that turns into anger issues.

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And then it's chaos. And that's, you know.

28:48

So let me ask. Let me ask you for Dan and Robin, because you guys have been counseling the longest.

28:56

You know, what what is it you often see as the issues within the marriage? You know, what are the the

29:03

I guess one of the main issues that you end up having to counsel on? Well, while Dan's thinking about that, are you saying that we're the oldest?

29:12

No, I said you've been doing it the longest. Just just check in there. You may not be the oldest, but probably

29:20

Anthony. Anthony just started late. I wanted to add something to the previous comment before we pass it by.

29:28

I love Gary Thomas's book, Sacred Marriage. The subtitle is What If Marriage?

29:34

What if God designed marriage to make us wholly more than happy?

29:41

And the other thing is marriage. Leslie Vernick, how to act right when your spouse acts wrong.

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The whole book deals with this. But one of the things that she talks about, too, is who are you looking to fulfill you, your spouse or God?

30:00

And no spouse can fulfill you like God can. So all of us need to focus on God and grow.

30:09

And then what are some of the common problems? Well, as was mentioned earlier, a lot of it is based on bad communication.

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You know, there could be many frustrations or struggles in the marriages. But one of the first things we have to do is teach them how to communicate to each other those fears, frustrations, disappointments, whatever.

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Because, again, none of us grew up with perfect parents and it's just makes for a bad situation.

30:41

So parenting or I'm sorry, communication is the root contributing to most all problems.

30:52

After that, then it would be, you know, the same ones that, you know, are in the topics of with mixed marriages.

31:03

A culture issues. Well, yeah, in the mixed marriages and then just parenting or step family situations that's becoming more and more prevalent with the problems with that.

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And then a lot of cultural issues. And then, as was mentioned earlier, I think with the with the person who said it, you know, there are oftentimes marriages where both spouses are not passionate for God at the same time.

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So it seems like one's a little bit ahead, one's behind. And then that gives all kinds of problems.

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Like, are we going to go to church Sunday or not? Yes, we are. No, we're not. And it's just and they're both

31:46

Christians. They're just not growing in the same way. We will talk again about parenting here in a little bit.

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But parenting is a big one, because Robin was brought up in a home that was completely different than the way

31:59

I was brought up. So without any biblical parameters, we're in conflict already at the get go, because my mom did it this way and her mom did it that way.

32:09

So parenting is another big one. Finances, that's a big one now, because, again, sometimes with step families, finances gets a little complicated.

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And yeah, there's just a lot of finances. And then one of them as well is sex.

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And I think, again, with the prolific sexually saturated society, people have forgotten, you know,

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God's designed for sex and that gets distorted real well or real quickly also.

32:43

Yeah, I mean, we were talking and we played the clip in the beginning right of a university professor who can't figure out what can't in a quickly define what a woman is.

32:56

But let's see if we could try to define what a man and a woman is. You know, Anthony, Amy, I'm going to ask you guys, because I'm going to ask you specifically.

33:05

So, Anthony, if you could give us help us to know what biblical manhood is in Amy, biblical womanhood, and then specifically, because I think this will help folks with Amy, you know, your testimony.

33:19

I'm not saying anything you haven't said publicly because you said it on the show before, but you came from a very feminist background and and with that has a lot of idea of, well, you know, a man shouldn't tell me what to do.

33:32

And then you're married in a Christian relationship to a man who, you know, who's supposed to be leading.

33:39

And you've talked about this on Anthony's podcast as well, which is what got my ear and where I wanted to talk with you.

33:46

Right. Where you had to learn to to submit them. So if you guys could go over, you know, the the biblical man, men's role, the husband's role, the wife's role and where some of that we bring in, you know, like you guys have talked in the past about where you bring these things into the marriage.

34:05

And how do we deal with that when when both want to lead? Both are from a background where I'm supposed to lead.

34:13

So nice, easy one for you. You know. Yeah. Wow. Ladies first.

34:19

No, no, no, no, no. You start this one.

34:25

I guess I have to lead, right? Yeah. You know, I I guess really where I would start is

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I'm looking right now that I've got something in a frame. It's a quote by Robert Murray McShane. And it says what a man is in his prayer closet is what he is.

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And so I would say, what is a man, a man, if he's not a man after God's own heart, if he's not a man pursuing

34:59

Christ, if he's not a man who is seeking to live biblically and pursue the

35:04

Lord and live all those things and live in holiness to the Lord and a life of repentance, both to God and to his wife and family.

35:17

All those those Christian virtues, joy, perseverance in trial, encouragement, you know, all those things that that that are the fruit of pursuing a one on one relationship with the

35:34

Lord out of gratitude of being born again by the spirit. If he's not those things, then he's not fully who

35:44

God intended and God designed him to be for himself, for his wife, for his family and for God's glory.

35:56

So I would say that that's not to put a yoke on on any man. It's to it's to try to encourage and exhort and stir him on.

36:09

You know, you can't just give a man a laundry list of things and a laundry list of virtues and say, go be all this.

36:14

And then your marriage will be better. It's got to come from from like a pastor said earlier, you know, only

36:22

God can change your heart. So it's got to come from that. And as far as biblical womanhood to back up, obviously, when we were and I think

36:43

Ant said this last week in the in the this podcast, the fact that when we got actually was even before we were engaged, we ended up doing pre -engagement counseling and premarital counseling, which, you know, to anybody that knew how old we were at the time, we were engaged in getting ready to get married.

37:02

Sounds kind of strange. But as he said, we did it wrong the first time. We wanted to do it right.

37:09

You know, the second and last time our pastor who married us.

37:16

Was very good at explaining to me, because when we were talking about the vows, we came to, you know,

37:23

I will obey. And I thought, yeah, I'm really having a little bit of a hard time with that.

37:32

And then he showed me Ephesians and he read the passage about.

37:40

Wives shall submit to their husbands. But then when he pointed out to me was the larger part of the passage of what was required of the husband to love his wife as Christ loved the church.

37:54

And he was the one who really started the me to really looking into scripture and understanding that submitting is not being a doormat.

38:06

Submitting is working within how

38:12

God created the relationship to be between husband and wife.

38:18

And what people fail to understand and what I fail to understand before I was saved is it is a partnership.

38:28

We have different roles. God thinks of us the same way. God loves us the same way.

38:34

But what he's designated for our roles as husband and wife are different.

38:41

And it works quite well because that's how God created it.

38:47

And I'm not just saying that as a just a pat answer. It's some. It works.

38:57

I hope so. So. So what what are some of the when we come into marriage? Right. What's what's some of the struggles that we can have is, you know,

39:08

Pastor Dan mentioned the fact that we were raised differently. Right.

39:14

And we bring that into I mean, I often talk with my bride.

39:20

You know, you look at our backgrounds there. You know, we had eight people in my family.

39:26

She had eight people in her family. The difference being is, you know, she had eight family members in a 400 square foot home.

39:36

And we had seven family members and a housekeeper in a

39:41

I think it was a nine thousand square foot home, eight or nine thousand square foot home. Very, very different lifestyles.

39:50

Right. And that that affects what we came into marriage with a very, very different view of money and spending money.

40:02

You know, I mean, you know, it's still even today, you know, hard because, you know, like we can get together with her family and anything her family wants to do, we could do.

40:11

But getting together with my family, it's like, can we afford this? I'm like, we only see my family once a year or yes, we're going to go and spend this money at this restaurant that, like, you know, is ridiculously priced because I only see my family once a year, you know.

40:26

But, you know, we were talking about bringing things into marriage.

40:32

How hard is it when we're bringing in, you know, because I think that I'm asking this of you because you are probably it is be fair to say you are far to the left of most

40:45

Christian women when when you got married, would that be a fair statement? Fair statement. So, you know, as a as a feminist who it's like, well, no,

40:54

I should I should be leading. I shouldn't have a man. How much is that for people to have to adjust?

41:01

How do we do that? How you it is chafing at first because it's not something that you're familiar with.

41:09

It's not something that you're used to doing. You know, the whole idea that, wait a minute, this person really kind of needs to know where I am, you know, just.

41:20

Being accountable for my time. Of. Just household stuffs and stuff and how we communicated it, it really was an adjustment, but some of it was just talking it out.

41:39

Some of it was flat out having an argument about something. And then through that argument and through that discussion period of getting through that, of going to the next level of.

41:51

Communication and understanding each other. And I know

41:57

I keep saying this, but it's important. It's just keep going back to scripture. I mean, I I started reading scripture to find loopholes.

42:07

And if I stayed in the scripture, I realized what it was and how it was

42:13

I was supposed to behave. And sometimes I shared with him the struggle.

42:20

Yeah, I was going to say there was a time early on where where it was exactly that, where she was using the

42:26

Bible, trying to trying to find loopholes and hold some some ideologies or whatever.

42:32

So we would talk about it. And I'd say, well, look at look at the scriptures. What do what do the scriptures say?

42:37

So I would kind of point her back to to the scriptures. Not kind of. I would. And, you know, she was a reader, so she'd read other other, you know,

42:46

Christian books and things. And and at the same time, too, it's important here to to to mention how and I don't know that I did this consciously.

42:59

You know, I don't know that I was aware of this. But I think part of just being a Christian somewhere along the line, she began to feel comfortable.

43:09

And knowing that if she lets go of the reins or trying to grab the reins or whatever, that I'm not going to abuse my position as God given leader in the home.

43:24

So somewhere along the lines, by God's grace, there was an environment that was fostered that gave her the trust in God.

43:35

Because this was all his design and the trust in the in God and the man that he had given her to have that kind of an environment.

43:45

And I think eventually it just it just God just kind of just dissipated it, you know, it's like clouds.

43:51

It's just suddenly or 10 minutes ago they were there and now they're just dissipated. And it really is, as you as you see.

44:00

As you see your husband leading and you see your husband being in the word and in prayer regularly and knowing that he really is trying to do things in a biblical, godly manner.

44:16

It is like Ant said, it's I started to trust the fact that he wasn't going to abuse the whole idea that I'm submitting to my husband.

44:27

Plus, he's also, you know, good at asking my thoughts on things. So it was never the my way or the highway kind of thing.

44:36

It was, well, this is what I'm thinking. What do you think about this? You know, and that's where that partnership comes in.

44:46

Yeah. And I mean, I think that first of all, I'll say before I ask the question of Robin, but I'll just say for Anthony to say you are sort of a reader.

44:57

Yeah, that's an understatement. Yeah. Anyone that knows your background, that's a way understatement.

45:05

I think I think that you would read more books a year than most people read in their lifetime. But, you know,

45:13

Robin, a big a big part of of marriage that we deal with is this.

45:18

And we're kind of been hitting on it is the idea of submission. And our culture has a very deep when we talk submission.

45:27

It's like, oh, wife shouldn't submit to their husband like it's a bad thing. And yet, you know, there is there, you know,

45:36

Anthony and Amy said, right, we have Ephesians five wives submitting to the husband's husband's loving the wives.

45:43

I've always said loving the wife like Christ, love the church. I'd rather take submitting to another human being.

45:50

Right. You know, it's it's it's an easier thing. But so my question to you,

45:57

Robin, would be for for the women. I mean, what is biblical submission and why is it so hard?

46:06

I mean, we understand culturally, but so you can address the cultural. But then also even as Christians, why is it hard for us to submit within marriage?

46:15

It's hard. I liked what Amy said. What I heard her saying is a process communicating.

46:25

It's hard because each of us, we think we know best and it's hard to trust someone.

46:36

And not all men are are man up to that trust right away.

46:43

So sometimes there's some mistakes made on both ends. And that's when

46:48

I don't remember who said it, but someone said that the best marriages are two people very good at forgiving.

46:57

And so there's that that forgiveness and communicating and building up trust because we all want to have our own way or think we know best.

47:11

Mike Mason, in the mystery of marriage, he was a monk and he said being a monk is a lot easier than being married.

47:22

And his book is a journal just beautifully written about about the process.

47:29

He said it also marriage takes gobs and gobs and gobs of time. Just getting to know one another.

47:37

He said one other funny thing. This is answering your question. I might be off topic here.

47:43

But he said marriage is so hard. Why don't they warn people? They should put it in the vows.

47:52

Oh, wait, they do. For better or worse, for richer, for poor.

47:58

But we say that. But we don't really think it's going to come to that. And it often does.

48:05

So when it does come to that, it takes sometimes this case. Your question to me is about the wife.

48:12

It takes her trusting her husband and communicating and growing it.

48:20

First, Peter and Proverbs talk about love covering sin. And I think that's so misunderstood.

48:26

It's not being petty and it's letting things go. Choosing your battles.

48:32

It's not being passive and not speaking up. It's not, you know, it's not sending boundaries where you protect yourself.

48:43

It's more just speaking the truth and working things out.

48:50

Did that answer your question, or do you want to ask the question again? No, that's good. OK. You know, so with that, you know,

48:59

Dan, I got to bring you in somehow. Right. So your background is in creation science.

49:07

So, you know, with that in mind, where did all the strife within marriage start from?

49:15

Well, you got to unmute first. I mean, you would have sounded brilliant, but I'm sure my wife would agree that some of my best the best things

49:25

I've ever said were said when I was on mute because nobody can hear hear me making a fool out of myself.

49:32

So, yeah, I tend to think about things, you know, and rather rather simply. I, I don't have the, you know, the full disclosure, of course, you know, all the standard disclosures apply or the caveats apply because, you know,

49:46

I don't have a degree in counseling and everything. So, you know, as I'm listening to everybody talk, I just I have scriptures that come to mind.

49:53

And it seems to me that a lot of what we're talking about are really just symptoms of what the root cause is.

50:00

And my mind just automatically goes back to Genesis three, right? At the at the when

50:05

God, you know, catches up with Adam and Eve and starts, you know, handing out curses and whatnot.

50:11

So in Genesis three, 16, it says to the woman, he says, I will greatly multiply your pain and childbirth in pain.

50:17

You shall deliver children. And here's the here's the highly relevant part to our discussion. Yet your desire will be for your husband and he shall rule over you.

50:28

And, you know, this is if you just look at this casually, you might think that, you know, all the desire. Well, you know, it's just, you know, that's that's eros, right?

50:36

That's the that's the natural physical desire that a woman would have for her for her own husband. But it's really not.

50:42

It's I think it's in Genesis chapter four or five where God talks about, you know, sin is crouching at the door and its desire is to its desire is for you.

50:54

And it's a desire to mastery. So the woman has a part of the curse is for the woman to desire to rule over her husband.

51:03

And then, of course, there's the second part of this and he shall rule over you. It's the husband's natural desire to to suppress his wife.

51:11

So it's no wonder that we have we have to be commanded in Scripture. Right. The husband has to be has to be commanded to die to himself and to suppress his own desires rather than trying to suppress his wife.

51:25

Right. And the woman's desire, her natural, you know, desire as part of the curse is to rule over her husband to be, you know, to turn every turn her husband into it, you know, into henpecked or I don't know what the how you want to phrase that.

51:39

But but her you know, her her her her command is to submit to her husband.

51:45

Right. So we typically don't have to be commanded to do things that come naturally to us. So I just I just I take it right back to Genesis three.

51:53

And, you know, that's everything that we've talked about is is all true and good. But I think those are those are symptoms we want to know.

51:59

The original question, I think, was, you know, what causes all this? And I again, you know, me just being the simpleton that I am,

52:05

I just head right for Genesis three and say, there's your cause right there. Now, how do we deal with it? And that's where all the problems come into play.

52:14

Yeah, I think it was. I think it was John MacArthur who said that the the battle of the sexes started in the garden and it hasn't ceased.

52:23

Yeah. Dan, there's nothing simplistic or simple about that. I mean, somebody else had said that every problem in a marriage can be traced back to, you know, the

52:34

Genesis passage there, that there's a problem and somebody is not, you know, leaving or not cleaving, you know, the competing.

52:42

So you're you're exactly right. I just my mind just can't think of the scriptures fast enough.

52:47

I see, you know, some of the we have a we have a private chat for, you know, I haven't read all the books that you guys have.

52:53

So the only book I'm really super familiar with is the Bible. So I'm just like, I have a Bible verse for that. That's all.

53:00

I just know the Bible. Oh, don't take it as good as you. Well, you know, it would be a good time for me to mention since you brought up that passage that if if anyone is in the

53:17

Philadelphia area, this coming up on September 21st,

53:23

I will be in Philadelphia. And I guess the I don't have there's not a website that I have, but there is that QR code if you if you scan it right there.

53:35

But I'll be at a church doing a conference that the truth truth matters.

53:42

Apologetic conference in Philadelphia, September 21st. The topic is, if God, why evil?

53:48

So it is a topic where we'll be covering the issues of evil and suffering for the

53:55

Christians. So if you're in the Philadelphia area, want to join us? I will be there.

54:01

And if you if you're said, hey, I need more details on that. Well, then just shoot us an email. Contact us through info at Striving for Eternity dot com.

54:11

Info at Striving for Eternity dot com. So with that, let's get back to to kind of wrap up.

54:19

I want to I want to deal with some of the the issues I see a lot within marriage that maybe we haven't covered.

54:26

And that is kind of when we have people that come into marriage with, shall we say, like unrealistic expectations, they one or both of the spouses has a view coming into marriage or what it should be.

54:43

And they're not getting what they want out of the marriage. I don't know if any of you have counseled anyone like that, but let me let me give that to you,

54:52

Pastor Dan. You know what?

54:58

How do we counsel someone when one or both of the the spouses have unrealistic expectations that they bring into the marriage?

55:09

Well, let Robin go first. First, I want to say I'm looking forward to your conference on Saturday, not this

55:15

Saturday, but next Saturday. I'm looking forward to it. I like what I love.

55:20

Dave Harvey's book, When Sinners Say I Do. The whole book can be summed up with this marriage.

55:28

God is the foundation. Focus on his glory. Sin makes us stupid.

55:34

That's our problem. And I think that just answers your question. Sin just makes us stupid.

55:40

It really does, according to Dave Harvey. And the cure is humility, mercy and forgiveness.

55:48

Those three things. So when people come in, you're dealing with those. Awesome book.

55:54

Yes. You're dealing with those three things. You're teaching humility to both of them. You're teaching mercy, having mercy and teaching forgiveness.

56:04

One thing that I wish I could remember where I heard it, but when they're really having a lot of conflict, the husband and a wife.

56:13

I love to tell the wife and a lot of women in our church will repeat this to me now they've heard it so much.

56:19

Go make a cup of coffee for Jesus and then bring it to your husband.

56:26

And don't slip anything else into it. She didn't say mashed potatoes.

56:32

And which can be easily poisoned. But anyway, it's a little fun fact for me.

56:40

Why does this taste like almonds? But that's what that's what you have to focus on in marriage.

56:49

Loving, well, loving like Jesus loved. And really, you're teaching them just to love others with your spouse, again, being your closest neighbor.

56:58

Now, I will say I'm really confused. My wife has never made me a cup of coffee. Robin, I don't know.

57:04

Maybe she hasn't heard that one yet. Well, Andrew, we can talk afterwards. Robin, in our church, in our church.

57:14

Do I have does anyone know me by my first name? How does everyone know me? Just by my wife's my wife's.

57:19

I'm just my wife's husband, right? And this is and this is Jim's husband.

57:26

That's what even goes on your name tag. Jim's husband. But when people are really having a hard time, you know, one of the things you have to do is, you know, ask them why they came to the church.

57:39

You know, they know that I'm a pastor. They're here in a church building, you know, which is a good thing.

57:46

So then what you try to do is you just try to develop the authority of the

57:52

Bible. You know, many churches say the Bible is final authority for faith and practice or some similarity to that.

57:59

But they don't really mean for my marriage. So we need to go back and, you know, when someone comes in with all these goofy expectations or that's the wrong word, frustrating or disappointed expectations, we need to, you know, really start with the

58:18

Bible and explain what marriage is and. Work through, again, all of those expectations, you know, it's only

58:30

Disney, I believe, that says at the end of their stories and they lived happily ever after.

58:37

You know, when you look at the marriages and the relationships in the Bible, where do you want to go?

58:43

Should we go Adam and Eve? Should we go to Abraham? You know, that was really good through his wife under the bus twice.

58:51

And, you know, it just goes on and on. So, you know, this idea of living happily ever after.

59:00

Is kind of a Disney fairy tale now. You know, once we then get them operating with loving

59:06

God, loving neighbors, once we get them to really understand the role of the husband, the role of the wife, once we get them to understand that Jesus Christ did not come to be served, but to serve, you know, that little acronym of J -O -Y,

59:24

Jesus, others and you, then everything just really starts. You know, coming together, as Amy said, you know, once we really start following the

59:33

Bible and its teachings and believe that and this is, again, kind of difficult because we got to live by faith.

59:40

You know, we're just going to have to believe that he knows what he's talking about and it'll work if we just do it then.

59:47

But that's kind of where we start. We got to get them on. We got to come from the same foundation from which these expectations are built upon.

59:56

And again, we got to go from the Bible. I, I love that. I want to add that one of the problems with today's culture in particular are books.

01:00:07

I don't mean to to be specific, but books like Love and Respect. Our phone's ringing off the hook.

01:00:15

My wife doesn't love me. My doesn't respect me. My husband doesn't love me.

01:00:21

My wife doesn't respect me. Whenever you read a book that says you need something or you deserve something, you're going to be disappointed.

01:00:30

And that's the culture we live in. Instead, we choose to love like Christ love.

01:00:35

How did Christ love? He's ready to sacrifice his life on the cross. And he strips his clothes off, wraps a towel around him and washes his disciples feet, including

01:00:47

Judas, who he knew would betray him. So if Jesus can do that, he sets the standard in the example for love.

01:00:57

And lastly, there's a blessing in obedience, in loving.

01:01:03

Well, we have a clear conscience. We grow spiritually. We're reflecting

01:01:08

Jesus. And it may it does influence those around you.

01:01:14

Other women who might be discouraged, it could change your husband. But you know what? The bottom line, it pleases

01:01:21

God. And that's why we do it. Everything else is a bonus. Yeah.

01:01:27

So with that, Aaron, we're going to ask you again. Can you summarize everything we said?

01:01:32

No, we'll just toss you this question, Aaron. Still talking about marriage and folks are suddenly going, wait, what just happened?

01:01:41

Well, Aaron is a magician, by the way, and that's why Dan disappeared. And Aaron appeared. It's just the way he does things.

01:01:49

So lighting. Yeah. So that better that better for you.

01:01:56

Yeah, Aaron, and this is kind of the maybe the last question

01:02:01

I had in the marriage, in the discussion of marriage. But how do we deal with, you know, when we're counseling, when you're dealing maybe with a younger couple physically, but more importantly, when we're dealing with an immature couple?

01:02:17

I mean, I think as you being the youngest of the of us, probably the kid in the room.

01:02:26

Yeah. But I mean, as we as we end up seeing, I mean, just the culture, the way it is,

01:02:33

I think when people are getting married, they are just they seem to me at least to be less and less prepared and they enter into marriage more and more immature than maybe a generation ago.

01:02:49

What I mean, I think we we've already kind of seen what some of the problems could be with that. But how do we how can we deal with it from a counseling perspective?

01:02:57

Immaturity from one or both of the spouses in in marriage. Yeah. And huge, broad question.

01:03:05

I first of all, I just want to say Robin's my new favorite person. Tonight, you get the star because that statement you made about that book,

01:03:14

Love and Respect. So, so important. I see that book on too many past.

01:03:20

I see that book in too many church libraries. And and I just want to throw in my two cents here.

01:03:26

You said it really well. But one of the issues wrong with that. Yes. God commands women to love their husbands.

01:03:34

God. Sorry. I'm sorry. Respect their husbands. And God commands husbands to love their wives. That's obviously an expectation for me as a husband.

01:03:41

God expects me to love my wife. But as Robin pointed out, the issue is when then my wife says

01:03:49

I need that in order to be who I am. I need that.

01:03:54

And that's the exact opposite of what we see in Scripture. Jesus didn't do it. The apostles didn't do it. They Paul says,

01:04:00

I do love all the more, even though I'm loved less. So, no, in order to be the husband that God wants me to be,

01:04:07

I don't need my wife to respect me. She needs to respect me because that's what God created her to do.

01:04:14

By the way, I'm not sure you've already had your squirrely Joe's ad yet. But when I asked my wife, which of the squirrely

01:04:19

Joe coffees she wanted me to bring home from the conference in Arizona, she very wisely, very maturely said to bring home the respect.

01:04:27

That's what she wanted, because that's what she knew was so important because she knew you needed to respect her more.

01:04:34

Or I don't know. No, because she is just such a respectful person. That's really what it is. So I'm just really glad that you said that.

01:04:41

That was that's really important. The question you ask, Andrew, is a big one. Just some things that I throw out there to newlyweds or people who are considering getting engaged or who are engaged.

01:04:56

First of all, the typical premarital counseling, which kind of like you do, like, you know, three, five, six sessions with the person who's going to be marrying you leading up to the wedding, you meet once a week or whatever else.

01:05:11

That's not enough. It's not enough. That grows from a culture where we don't engage biblical counseling the way we should.

01:05:20

And we don't engage in biblical counseling the way we should, because we view biblical counseling like the world views therapy when the reality is biblical counseling is the exact same thing as discipleship.

01:05:29

It's the exact same thing as one another. It is something that should be perpetually. We should be identified as people who do this as part of our church lifestyle.

01:05:40

So when two people are considering getting married, the second most important decision that they're ever going to make in their lives.

01:05:49

Why are they only meeting three, four or five times with the person who's going to marry them?

01:05:55

Why are we having a bigger discussion? So when I do premarital counseling, I bare minimum require six months.

01:06:04

And when I have it, I love having more than that. Even up to a year meeting weekly in preparation for this, talking about things to answer your question,

01:06:13

Andrew, so much of what's happening is it's really ignorance. They're ignorant of God's word. They're ignorant of what marriage entails and what it requires of a person.

01:06:22

They're ignorant of each other. That's another huge thing. We don't we don't know each other.

01:06:27

My dad kind of had this. It wasn't it wasn't prerogatory. It wasn't inappropriate.

01:06:32

But in some circles, it would kind of maybe be viewed as inappropriate. He said, don't marry a girl until you've seen her in her swimsuit.

01:06:38

By which he was saying, don't marry a girl until you've seen her for who she is.

01:06:44

Right. See how she interacts with her parents. See how she interacts. She treats her siblings. What is she like?

01:06:50

How does she respond when life is hard and things are difficult? You're welcome,

01:06:56

Fatima. I'm not sure if you're referring to the statement, but you've got to know the person that you're committing to this relationship with.

01:07:08

So there's just too much ignorance, ignorance of God's word, ignorance of my identity in Christ, ignorance of the person that I'm marrying.

01:07:16

And having that relationship with a discipler who is meeting with me, meeting with me and my potential downside, potential spouse is a really desperately important thing, because then we can do the the community work of the one another's and the disciples to which

01:07:34

God has called us, sharpen each other, speaking the truth and love, building each other up into Christ, but doing it together with this person who

01:07:41

Lord willing, you're going to spend the rest of your life with. So I would be my those are my biggest encouragements to people who are kind of going on that trajectory.

01:07:49

You can't you can't know enough. You can't learn enough. You can't spend enough time pursuing

01:07:54

God's truth when it comes to your future relationship. Yeah, and let me give the last question, not really about marriage, but it'll fit in better in the marriage section than we talk about parenting.

01:08:11

Fatima asked this earlier in Christian biblical counseling. Should women only go to female counselors and men only go to male counselors?

01:08:20

I don't know which one of you might want to answer that. I'll get I'll get in trouble if I answer that one, so I'll let someone else.

01:08:27

I was going to defer that to. Pastor and his wife. I mean,

01:08:35

I can answer it, but I'd rather hear their their wisdom on it. Well, we can't go together.

01:08:41

Yeah, we basically do it together. If there is an occasion where someone needs my help,

01:08:49

I'll meet him like at the Burger King or something. I tell Robin who I'm going to see and where and when and all that kind of stuff.

01:08:59

But most of the time we just kind of do it together. All our all our scheduled counseling is together, but I do

01:09:07

I do a full time job. I work during the day. So Dan does a lot of grief share.

01:09:14

And so if someone's in crisis, man or woman, he'll meet him at, like he said, near the church.

01:09:20

And he tells me ahead of time that he's going and little things like he'll never help a woman with her coat, things like that.

01:09:28

And we just do it together. And I've done some women alone and he's done men alone and men and women together with with him.

01:09:40

But, you know, you can't develop a relation or you can't really develop a counseling relationship with someone of the opposite sex.

01:09:49

And the other thing, too, is that, you know, we're always even at the get go.

01:09:56

You know, I am not to be your first 911 call. God is.

01:10:02

So we are constantly, you know, pointing them to God. God's your answer, not me.

01:10:08

I'm just a facilitator and I can give you some tools. But you have to, you know, keep pushing the person towards God from the very get go.

01:10:19

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I I'm thinking back to many, many years ago.

01:10:26

We had a woman in church who it was discovered later she and another single guy were sleeping together.

01:10:37

And I was, you know, before I knew that I was counseling with both.

01:10:44

They wanted to get married and they they wanted me to do some counseling with them. And I would counsel them together and I'd counsel him.

01:10:53

And I remember she called me once at night and asked if I would come over. And this was this was right after I discovered they were sleeping together.

01:11:00

And she wanted to know if I would come over and, you know, and counsel her. And I said, I will be happy to talk to you on the phone.

01:11:07

She's like, well, can you just come over? I said, I would not come over to your house under any circumstances at like 11 o 'clock at night.

01:11:16

You know, it's like, no, that's that's not happening. And so, you know, it's just there's wisdom in just saying no to some counselees.

01:11:28

And that is some people have a problem with that. Right. Is they think like, oh, no, we should always be available.

01:11:35

But I think there's there's there's wisdom in that. But there's been times like like for Dan, like you're saying, where I'll let him know.

01:11:43

I even have to let him know sometimes when I meet with a man that we had, but it's usually because for very different reasons.

01:11:50

We had I remember once that I was meeting with this this Jewish Orthodox Jewish guy that want to convert me back to Judaism.

01:11:56

And we set up a whole thing where my bride was going to text me like every half hour or something and ask me questions like you should ask, like, you know, did you guys meet yet?

01:12:10

You know, a question that a text wife should get. And then my response would be like blue cheese, you know, or, you know, it should be like, what are you eating?

01:12:18

And, you know, I'd say the moon, you know, because you just make sure you OK. You still you still there?

01:12:25

But that's because I'm in a little bit of a different ministry than you. I get haters. You don't.

01:12:33

So I was going to say, just I realized that this what?

01:12:39

Well, the statement I was the statement I made about getting in trouble probably left to kick the door wide open for misunderstanding.

01:12:45

Then if I just express my opinion. So I thought I was going to make you have to answer it.

01:12:51

Yeah. Oh, good. So first of all, I say that a lot of the counseling and I with everything you guys, my wife and I have done co -counseling time or just she's been there.

01:13:04

So all that all that normal stuff that people have done. I do a lot of my counseling virtually, which some people have said that's actually can be more dangerous.

01:13:14

And it can be in a way. But every single counseling session I do, whether I'm with a guy or a girl or a young person, it's always recorded.

01:13:23

Everyone knows that going to it. It's it's for safety. It's and it's it's actually been very helpful for me.

01:13:30

I once had a young person tell their parents. I said something that I didn't say. And I could just say, hey, here's our counseling session.

01:13:36

You know, you can watch it, see for yourself exactly what was said. So that's so I do counsel with women virtually like that.

01:13:46

Again, all of them are are recorded. The reason this is how

01:13:52

I get in trouble and I don't I don't want to die on this on this hill, but I think the

01:13:58

Billy Graham rule and things like that, I think there's a lot of wisdom with that. But I think if we're not careful, we sometimes cross the line into pharisaism.

01:14:05

But we've we've created a standard that we've said God has commanded. And it's a good idea.

01:14:11

There's wisdom to it, for sure. It's going to be more important for some people than it is for others. We don't want to be foolish.

01:14:17

All of that is true. I think, Andrew, you're about not going over to that woman's house at 11 o 'clock at night. Very wise.

01:14:22

I wouldn't have done that either. But then I think about the fact that when God sent was it

01:14:28

Elijah or Elisha? I always get the two of them mixed up. The one when he sent to the to the woman and her son and they had the meal and the oil.

01:14:37

When and when God needed his man to find lodging in a foreign city, he sent her to live with a widowed woman.

01:14:48

That breaks the Billy Graham rule tons and tons over. But God commanded him to do so.

01:14:54

So I am hesitant a little bit to say that, you know, for these guys. And I'm not saying they're virtue signaling.

01:15:00

I think they honestly believe it. But if they absolutely refuse to ever meet with a woman to minister to, especially if a man is her pastor,

01:15:08

I'm sitting back and I'm going, oh, guys, I think that we are I think that we're trying to be more holy than God.

01:15:14

And we need to be careful. There are people who need help. And yes, we can be wise and we can have accountability.

01:15:20

But for us to not do that again, we're doing something that God himself didn't do.

01:15:26

So that's where sometimes people and I disagree. And it's completely OK for us to disagree. I still love you. That's kind of my take on that.

01:15:33

Yeah. You know, and I was thinking as Pastor Dan was was speaking. And actually,

01:15:38

I'm just going to put up a comment from Michael because he actually said what I what I was thinking to say.

01:15:45

Now, Michael, by the way, is is our Canadian atheist. He's not really an atheist. He just professes to be one.

01:15:52

He doesn't believe in Canada or no, he doesn't believe in Canada. Hey, he is.

01:15:58

He is. I'm sure. And Michael, brother, I'm not making fun of you. No, he's probably he's probably laughing at that.

01:16:05

He's got a good sense of humor. So he says he says as a social worker who does counseling, it's always important to remember the power dynamic that exists.

01:16:14

Stay professional. And and as Dan, as you were speaking, I mean, that was the thing I was thinking that my first pastor really helped me to understand is when you're if you're counseling a woman, you know, this is what he had said.

01:16:28

You know, like if you're counseling a woman, you just have it, especially if it's in a marriage counseling on marriage issues.

01:16:34

What can very easily happen is they start transferring their attention to you as the counselor because you have all the solutions and you're speaking to her about her problems and she's feeling heard and there can become a problem.

01:16:52

And I actually have a friend of mine who nothing sexual had happened, but he was counseling someone in in a secular job he worked at.

01:17:01

And even though it was, you know, at work, but they got too close emotionally.

01:17:08

And he actually stepped down as a pastor because of it. So, yeah, there are you know, with that power dynamic that that Michael's bringing up is something that we we have to take into consideration as well.

01:17:22

So with that, I mean, I should say we didn't talk about squirrely Joe's coffee yet,

01:17:28

Aaron. But, you know, in our private chat, when you mentioned it, you know, Anthony is going like he says,

01:17:35

I don't know that coffee. I gather there's I gather from these shows all the flavors are named with virtues.

01:17:43

Can't help but to wonder how much a bag of charity. And so just so you know, there there is no bag of charity.

01:17:54

Yes, I guess squirrely Joe was concerned about the fact that if he if he a bag of charity should be like free or something.

01:18:02

But yeah, there's compassion as a capitalist. Yeah, we like that. We have we have compassion, which is what

01:18:10

I happen to be drinking today, which is a nice Brazilian medium roast. The flavor of that one is a milk chocolate, roasted almond, apple and brown spice happens to be one of my favorites.

01:18:22

I have a hard time figuring out which is my favorite. I because I also like the wisdom, not just because I like wisdom, but it's dark and I don't usually like a dark coffee.

01:18:32

But there's that one's good. It's a a Guatemalan. But they have honor, integrity, kindness, respect.

01:18:43

And and then I struggle with the next two. Anthony, you have a coffee company and really, really good coffee, but they have responsibility.

01:18:55

Now, why do I have an issue with responsibility? Anthony, let me tell you, because responsibility is a half caffeinated, half decaffeinated.

01:19:06

That just doesn't sound responsible to me. That's true. But the real one that I struggle with.

01:19:12

They should just call that one syncretism. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, honesty. I have the real struggle with because honesty is their decaf.

01:19:21

And it's just that's that's not honest. That's not really coffee. That's the one that says be still and know that I'm good.

01:19:29

Yeah, I just I struggle with that one. So so therefore, I guess I'm struggling with drinking honesty.

01:19:37

Because I just don't do decaf. I think the the other one that you mentioned that you struggle with, not honesty, the responsibility, the responsibility just makes me think drink responsibly like I don't like coffee.

01:19:50

I don't drink coffee. There's lots of things I don't drink. So these drink responsibly, please. People are too many coffee addicts out there thinking that they're better than the pot smokers.

01:19:59

No, no. Well, you know, there's there's some of us here, not not me, but some that have their, you know, while while coffee every day.

01:20:11

You know, I'm sure. But the if you can spice and right then and there, you would be my wife's favorite.

01:20:27

And unfortunately, squirrely Joe doesn't have a problem with that. Pumpkin spice for you. But if you want to get a good cup of coffee and actually at the same time sponsor the show because or support the show, you can go to squirrely

01:20:40

Joe's. Just go to Striving Fraternity dot org slash coffee. That is where you get get it from.

01:20:47

You get 20 percent off the first your first order with the S with the code SFE and do us a favor every time you reorder.

01:20:55

Just go to Striving Fraternity dot org slash coffee. The order more because that way he knows that we sent you and he continues to support this program.

01:21:05

So we do appreciate squirrely Joe's because I love the coffee. Actually, I will admit and Dan's not here, but, you know, and Aaron, you know, we we went to the conference in Arizona.

01:21:19

I will admit that I did try to to put the connection together with squirrely

01:21:25

Joe and the conference organizer, because squirrely Joe provides the coffee to a lot of the conferences and and then kindly sends speakers home with a free bag.

01:21:34

So I was I was hopeful that that was going to happen in Arizona. So I got I got to go home with a bag of compassionate or compassion.

01:21:44

So let's let's transition into talking about about the about parenting now, because that's that's really, you know, as I think it was,

01:21:57

Dan, you said a big topic that we deal with as husband and wife is parenting and you brought up.

01:22:07

So I'll start with you is you brought up the issue of people that come into marriage with different parenting styles.

01:22:15

How does that affect not just the marriage, but then more specifically, how does that affect the children when you have two different parents with two different styles?

01:22:27

Well, it's tremendous and it has a tremendous impact and it's mostly negative.

01:22:35

One thing that happens, especially now with the big football seasons going on with the schools is that, you know, the dad wants to vicariously live his football career again through the children or through the child.

01:22:53

So everything is all about football. They eat, they drink everything about football.

01:22:59

But there's more to it than that. So then the wife is saying, yeah, well, you know, my parents are all advanced and we, you know, education was super important.

01:23:11

And there's now a big deal, you know, the fine arts or football. And it just really makes for a big problem.

01:23:18

And they're both coming from not a biblical perspective. But this is what

01:23:23

I was taught. This is how I was raised. And therefore, we're going to make this the law.

01:23:29

And you only got one kid and it's not going to work in a in a good situation.

01:23:40

Two people have advantages over a single parent home because they can bring balance.

01:23:47

I know in our home, big surprise. I was much stricter and less tolerant.

01:23:55

And Dan was the kind, gentler one. And if I overdisciplined or got too upset, we would make the rules and then we'd go into the bedroom and he would say, do you think you were a little too hard?

01:24:10

No. They talked me off the edge. And then I would go out and say, you know,

01:24:15

I was thinking because that way he didn't always look like the good guy, even though he really was. And I would go back.

01:24:23

And the two of us together, when you're in unity with Christ, can together do a good job of bringing balance and rearing your children.

01:24:34

Yeah, I mean, I found with my bride and I, we'd switch who was the disciplinarian.

01:24:39

But it was always kind of nice that one of us was the level headed one. One of us was the disciplinarian.

01:24:47

And so we kind of would transfer or go back and forth sometimes. But it was confusing to the kids.

01:24:54

I find a lot. And it actually makes things harder. So like we ended up having to decide,

01:25:00

OK, we need to kind of agree ahead of time on like when before before a punishment would occur, there'd be times where sometimes we would first say,

01:25:11

OK, we need to talk. Yeah. Because I ended up discovering that, yeah, we might be one's the disciplinarian than the other.

01:25:20

But it was confusing to the kids. And I think it sends mixed signals to them and makes it harder.

01:25:29

And so, you know, we ended up like we kept trying to figure out what's what. What do we do?

01:25:35

What works? What? I now as a grandfather with my my daughter,

01:25:40

I I keep saying like with kids, the simplest thing I could say is when you figure out what's going on with them, they've changed to something else.

01:25:50

It's a constant learning game. You're exactly right.

01:25:57

I guess I'll jump in. But you got to have consistency. So what we did very early on with our children, especially when they were younger, is we had the list of rules and the consequences.

01:26:11

And we would put it on the refrigerator. So what we were trying to do is trying to remove any emotions from it, because all you did was you take your index finger and say, come here.

01:26:23

We walk over to the refrigerator. There's the rule. If you you know, we would kiddingly say, you know, if you're good, we let you live.

01:26:32

And if not, then there's the consequences. But then the consequences, as you mentioned,

01:26:39

Andrew, were already predetermined, predecided. There's no child abuse or anything.

01:26:46

And we were then able to think through that the consequences was worse than the pleasure of the offense.

01:26:54

Because you got to make it hurt, because as Hebrew says, sin is fun for a little bit. So you got to make it, quote unquote, hurt.

01:27:03

So, yeah, you're right. You have to have a list of rules. And then as the kids got older, we didn't necessarily put them on the refrigerator.

01:27:10

But we already had this process planned out and we already developed the list for even the teens.

01:27:17

And it has worked out very well for us and many other parents make a list. I want to clarify.

01:27:24

And I think we're passed to someone else. But the list is short. Yes. The list is short.

01:27:30

They're guiding principles like number one when they're young. The first thing you have to teach them is obedience. Yes. You can't really build a smile.

01:27:38

You can't really build on them doing anything else until they obey.

01:27:44

So you just get them to obey and then you work on the heart, like you said, with a smile, with a good attitude.

01:27:51

Our home is safe. And so we're not going to be cruel to one another, et cetera. Well, I'm glad that you brought that up, because I was actually going to ask this of Aaron and talk about that.

01:28:01

So they're my children. My kids are my daughter is now raising children.

01:28:10

And if folks go back in the archives of my rap report podcast,

01:28:17

I interviewed a couple with a book that I'm trying to remember the name of off the top of my head, because it's probably it's behind my screen over here.

01:28:27

And I can't see it, but I know the subtitle. But it's it's

01:28:33

John Roquette is the the the guy who ended up officiating the marriage of my daughter and her and her husband.

01:28:42

And I always say, like, I was really upset when my daughter didn't want me to do it. I was like, hey,

01:28:47

I know how to do a wedding. I'm a pastor. And she was like, Dad, you can't do what we want.

01:28:54

And I'm like, I know how to do a wedding. Well, what can you know? When I saw their wedding, I agreed with her.

01:29:00

I couldn't do what they wanted. Their entire wedding was geared toward evangelizing my unsafe parents. If I did it, they would have

01:29:07

I would have it would have been like, you did that on purpose. So but my daughter, she could do that, you know, to the grandparents is

01:29:15

OK. So but John Roquette had written a book on parenting. The subtitle was

01:29:21

Blue Tape Parenting. And I was going to bring up what you just said and ask it of Aaron is the importance of having few rules because the one my daughter and, you know,

01:29:33

Dan Robbins, if you come to my house, you know, ever since my kids were here, you'll see blue tape all over the place.

01:29:39

And what my kids have done based off of, you know, John Roquette, who's one of their pastors, the you know, he says to put for the young kids, you put blue tape down.

01:29:53

And there's just one rule. Stay within the blue tape. Anything within the blue tape is fine.

01:30:01

And so instead of putting them in a playpen, they they just put tape in their house, everything in the blue tape area.

01:30:08

You can touch anything. You just can't go outside the blue tape. So as my grandson, who is just turning two in a few months, all he like he doesn't have a lot of rules.

01:30:18

The one rule he's got to learn as a two year old is stay within the blue tape. And it's amazing because he does it.

01:30:24

You know, even when he comes to our house, we put him in an area and he sees the blue tape and he knows

01:30:30

I don't cross that line. Anything within that is fine. And, you know, so the the the thing that I noticed in Aaron, when

01:30:38

I was raising kids, I had way too many rules. You know, I was

01:30:44

I was raised with the I don't know if you guys are familiar with the Growing Kids God's Way program.

01:30:50

And and it's very strict. And, you know, there's you know, you have all these rules, everything.

01:30:58

And yeah, it just it was like I think that it was too many rules for the kids and it confused them is my thing.

01:31:06

But what is what were your what's your view with the amount of rules we have for children?

01:31:11

Is it you know, is there time periods where we increase the rules, change the rules, have less rules?

01:31:21

What are your thoughts? Well, that's a really good question.

01:31:27

It's I will say that to a certain degree, there's going to be a level of subjectivity. I think that, you know, their age and their particular demeanor and things like that play into it.

01:31:40

So a couple of things just for your audience who may not know. First of all, I do have a parenting podcast called

01:31:46

Truth Loved Parent that we've been doing now coming up on. So like eight, nine years and over 500 episodes.

01:31:53

So if you're looking for biblical parenting content, you definitely check out Truth Loved Parent, that's a blessing for you.

01:32:02

I also worked at a boys home for at risk teens for five years. Before that, I was the dean of students at a

01:32:08

Christian school. So consequences, rules. That's been my life, you know, both professionally and personally in many ways.

01:32:17

And so working at the boys home, we would have up to eight at risk teens there. And we would have and we had my two children there.

01:32:26

And when we first moved there, my children were very young. And these these these boys who any one of them in their own home was just burning the place down metaphorically, sometimes literally eight of them in my home, by God's grace, because of lots of different factors, it worked.

01:32:46

And it worked in part because we had rules, consistent rules, and we had program staff that would would would enforce those rules.

01:32:54

And some of our biggest problems, obviously, on the board, just, you know, were dead set on disobeying.

01:32:59

But oftentimes when we were inconsistent, created our own issues. But my children lived by a lot of the exact same rules.

01:33:08

And so I understand the blue tape thing. I get that. But I also am the creator of Expectational Education that believes that we expect far too little of our children.

01:33:19

And I think if my daughter or my son were here right now, they would say that I've always expected greatness from them because God created them and incapacitates them to do great things for his glory.

01:33:32

So in our house, I think we probably would be said that we have a lot of rules that boil down to simple concepts.

01:33:40

You know, we all have our own version of, you know, obedience. Things have been done quickly, sweetly and completely. And sin hurts and we need to glorify

01:33:47

God. So simple concepts that blossom out our family. Maybe we're just a family of philosophers, but we talk through why do we do what we do?

01:33:59

So really, a lot of our conversations are less about you broke this rule and more about why did you break the rule?

01:34:07

And those answers are almost always identical because I wanted to. Why did you want to?

01:34:12

Because I believed a lie. What lie did you believe? And oftentimes we fall into the trap of believing the same lie. So I'm not going to sit back and say to somebody, don't have a lot of rules for your kids.

01:34:21

Obviously, a two year old is not going to remember and understand to the same degree that a 12 year old, 10 year old would.

01:34:28

So obviously, there's wisdom in that. But I always say, too, that God didn't write a children's version of the

01:34:33

Bible. The exact same dictation he has for all of his people is the scriptures.

01:34:41

And as a parent, it is my job to have a thick parenting Bible. Jim Neuheiser talks about counselors need to have a thick counseling

01:34:49

Bible. Well, parents, we need to have a we have a thick parenting Bible. We need to pull from the scriptures from Genesis to Revelation and speak that into our children's lives and help them learn.

01:34:58

And sometimes that is a little overwhelming, but your kids can learn it because God has created them to learn.

01:35:03

He commands them to learn. He capacitates them to learn. And I always like to call parents to think about the fact that you are not rearing children.

01:35:11

You're rearing adults. In fact, the next series that's coming up here on the Truth of Parent podcast is all about that.

01:35:18

We're not rearing children. Children are rearing adults. And so call them into where they're not yet there.

01:35:27

That comes in things that we allow them to do. That comes in the expectations that we set for them. It comes in the teaching that we give them, not speaking down to them, but calling them up to that next level.

01:35:37

They're mature. And and your your son is how old? Micah is going to be at least 17 and a half.

01:35:47

17. So I'm going to I'm going to put Dan and Robin on the spot since you talked about the way you raise your kids and they got to meet

01:35:55

Micah. So as a 17 year old boy, what what are your thoughts?

01:36:02

He did a good job. Very first I'm writing, I know. Very first impression.

01:36:09

Well, he was very friendly. We also brought two teenagers along with us and he warmly welcomed them.

01:36:18

He wasn't bashful or shy. And actually, the three of them hit it off and they kind of just kind of did their own thing.

01:36:26

One thing, one word I will use. And so I don't want to take all of Robin's thunder was very articulate.

01:36:33

You know, he was very, very careful, thoughtful speaker.

01:36:39

He seemed to be a stellar, godly young man, spoke well of his family and very concerned for the two young men.

01:36:49

We had very here he was in the play. And so our boys were like, wow, he's in the play.

01:36:55

He's one of the characters. And yet he was humble and kind to them. And I do believe they're texting.

01:37:03

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for attending the same college. And we did. And I said maybe a dozen times.

01:37:10

What a blessing it was for our two teens that Micah was there. Yeah. Yeah, I think.

01:37:17

Yeah. Very, very mature. Beyond his years was the words I had had thought of. So so let me ask for, you know,

01:37:28

Anthony and Amy, because you guys don't have children. And so the question that always comes up when it comes to different things is, you know, you can't understand you can't counsel what you don't understand, which

01:37:43

I've always thought strange. I would hear it a lot when when I was single before I got married and I would do all this marriage counseling and parenting counseling.

01:37:51

Can you do that? I mean, are you as a couple who don't have children?

01:37:57

Can you can you counsel? Are there where would you turn to if you don't have experience to go to to counsel?

01:38:05

Yeah. You know, it's it's funny you ask that, because for for most of my 20 years as a

01:38:13

Christian, I've avoided. I've just avoided it like we we couldn't have kids.

01:38:18

And so, you know, it's like imagine trying to live with a third arm. You can't.

01:38:24

Well, that's kind of how it is for us. We can't even imagine what it's like. So and and even as we talk through counseling and, you know, going forward through getting certified and studying counseling, all right.

01:38:39

It was always like whenever they talked about counseling and these the training, it's not that we tuned out, but it didn't apply.

01:38:48

So but interestingly, in the last few months, in in the kindness of God, I've was approached about possibly being an elder at my church and I've since been voted in by by the church.

01:39:06

And congratulations. Oh, praise the Lord. Thanks. Yeah. Introduce you as pastor, Anthony.

01:39:12

Yeah. Or as I'm not going to go there. We all know now you have a company.

01:39:20

We we have a now I'm there's a little inside church joke.

01:39:25

I'm just going to leave it. Never mind. I already exposed our interest. Anyway, it's too self -aggrandizing.

01:39:35

But anyway, the point is, I seriously, it made me rethink the idea of, hey, you know what?

01:39:41

I need to learn to relate to children and be able to help parents. And in the same token,

01:39:47

I'll try to wrap this up. I'm sorry. I actually had to read

01:39:53

Shepherding a Child's Heart recently because I'm now kind of involved with with Shepherd Press and they're launching a podcast.

01:40:00

And so, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So I read that book, which I never thought I would.

01:40:06

And I loved it. I loved it because I saw how

01:40:12

God shepherds my heart and nurtures me as his child. And I saw, wow, this is really interesting how

01:40:20

God's word applies to me at 53. And it applies to a child that's 50 years younger.

01:40:28

And so I I've changed my opinion. You know, I can counsel parents to some degree because of the wisdom from the scriptures and the wisdom from those of you who who produce counseling, parenting materials.

01:40:46

I'll just add a quick caveat and then I'll shut up. The caveat for me, though, is pride.

01:40:53

I really have to be careful because especially like in those proverbial restaurant situations.

01:41:00

Boy, do I know how to shut that kid up because of what

01:41:06

I saw in my own, you know, my own family or whatever. Or I think I know. So honestly, I say that, yes,

01:41:13

I would feel comfortable in God's grace to to help a parent. But I would need to be careful and guard my heart that somehow

01:41:20

I know better because let's face it, I really I'm doing this from secondhand knowledge.

01:41:27

Duct tape works every time. My dad always said. To the question, though,

01:41:35

I think, you know, as far as we know, some people conjecture about whether or not Paul was married, but he spoke

01:41:41

God's truth on marriage. We don't think he had any kids. He spoke God's truth on parenting. So and I just say this as a man who is a biblical counselor, work with so many people who their pastors feel ill -equipped to speak and you know this from the mental health perspective.

01:41:58

But they also do this from the parenting perspective. They do this like I've never seen that. I've never been in this situation before.

01:42:05

Therefore, it was to deal with it. And I say, well, you guys, you have your Bible, right? And sure. Yes. Experience and things like that definitely are a big part of it.

01:42:13

But I would just encourage you, whether you have children or not. You know, and this is just for anybody, not just Anthony. Definitely speak

01:42:19

God's truth into the situation. His Bible is everything we need for life and Godliness. And I know I know we know that.

01:42:26

But man, oh, man. And definitely if you're receiving counsel, just because someone's unmarried or just because someone doesn't have kids doesn't mean they can tell you

01:42:33

God's truth about it. Yeah. Yeah. It reminds me, too, like Paul Washer said, right? I've never been crucified, but I can preach the cross.

01:42:40

That's right. So there's that aspect, too. Yeah, that's a great point. Thanks, Aaron. Amy, you had you had a point just that the same.

01:42:48

I mean, I really was reticent about the idea of of counseling parents, you know, with any kind of parenting issue, but similar to ask, but from different, you know, we come at it from different angles.

01:43:06

I'm thinking, you know what? I do have scripture and that's. That's what we work from.

01:43:12

That's our premise. I mean, you know, one of the things that we also tell people is certified or not, if you're a believer and you have the

01:43:19

Bible and you're in the word, you can counsel. So that's part of how

01:43:25

I've come to realize, you know what? If I needed to do that and that was put in front of me,

01:43:32

I could do that because I have scripture. I would also look to, you know, others that have, you know, like shepherding a child's heart.

01:43:43

You know, I'd always be willing to look at other resources, but knowing that we have scripture and it is everything for truth in life, we

01:43:51

I would be comfortable doing that. Yeah, I mean, I when I was single and people would challenge me because, you know,

01:43:58

I'm doing marriage counseling or counseling about parenting. You're not married.

01:44:04

How can you do that? I'd be like, I don't need to be a drunkard to know how to counsel someone who drinks, you know,

01:44:11

I know what the Bible says on that. So let me ask

01:44:17

Pastor Dan, you know, we go to Ephesians chapter six and verse four.

01:44:23

It's often overlooked. You know, we a lot of people will think of this verse, this passage,

01:44:28

I should say, and they'll focus on the first couple of verses. Children obey your parents and Lord for it is right.

01:44:35

Honor your father and mother, which is the first commandment with promise. So it may be it may be well with you that you will live a long, long life on the earth.

01:44:46

But it's like for a lot of people kind of stops there, especially in Father's Day, don't read the very next verse, which says fathers do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the

01:45:06

Lord. And and this do not provoke the provoke is an imperative in the

01:45:12

Greek. Your children to anger the to anger is an imperative, but bring them up is another imperative.

01:45:19

I mean, a short thing and there's three imperatives. We don't see that in in go back to Ephesians five where everyone knows, you know, in in twenty one, twenty two and following.

01:45:34

You have an imperative in verse twenty five. Husbands love your wives. And that is repeated down in verse thirty three.

01:45:41

Also love his own wife. So in that whole section, there's there's only one imperative, really, for the the husbands and wives.

01:45:51

But then when it comes to the children have the imperative to to obey and honor. But then the fathers have have three imperatives, three commands.

01:46:02

So my my question is, where's the mother here? My mom not mentioned.

01:46:08

Right. Why is it the father? What does it mean to provoke our children? Anger and then also and then what does it mean to bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the

01:46:21

Lord? Well, my memory is not as good as it should be.

01:46:27

I've got a whole sermon on that that I can't find. Here we go right here.

01:46:34

I don't think we have time for your whole sermon. Well, we say this is a collaboration.

01:46:42

The collaboration of many, many books and stuff. But the composite list is when we abuse them physically, of course, when we abuse them with the hollering, the yelling, the scolding, the outbursts of anger, when we personally neglect them because we're too busy with our career.

01:47:06

And sometimes it's difficult because, you know, young parents are starting out and we got to make money when we don't understand them.

01:47:15

You know, one of the questions that I just asked a father a week or so ago was, what is the greatest fear that your child is wrestling with right now?

01:47:26

And sadly, he had no idea. Sometimes we we frustrate them when we expect too much from them.

01:47:34

There were many times where Robin and I would each tell each other, hey, you got to remember that, you know, our one daughter is only nine years old.

01:47:45

And, you know, we wanted to act like a 19 year old sometimes when we judge them solely on their performance and not their their heart when we're unwilling to make admit our mistakes.

01:48:00

And that was something that, again, we were able to demonstrate to our kids how to ask for forgiveness and how we were able to go in later at night and say, you know what, maybe we were just a little too aggressive or however, where do we want to put it?

01:48:15

We were wrong. You know, will you forgive us when we discipline and anger when we don't allow for harmless mistakes?

01:48:24

You know, childishness is different than foolishness. And I don't know if we wanted to explain all that, but there's a difference between just a three year old child knocking over a glass and then an act of disobedience.

01:48:40

And sometimes we just don't allow it with that. Then sometimes we put greater value on stuff over the person.

01:48:47

You know, they are just going through the house and they knock something over and we we try to we unfortunately demonstrate that that what they broke is far greater than them.

01:49:01

We're inconsistent. Favoritism. Oh, my goodness. In the Bible, we should very well know that favoritism does not sit well within the families.

01:49:13

So those are just some of the ways that we provoke them to wrap.

01:49:23

Bringing them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. I'm going to expand it just a little bit and I'm going to take it a little bit out of context and I'm going to answer your question a little differently.

01:49:34

But I think there needs to be like purposeful parenting. So how that fits is we need to be thinking through, you know, when my child graduate or leaves elementary school, where does that where do

01:49:47

I want to be emotionally, physically, socially, mentally or academically?

01:49:55

And then also spiritually. OK, now let's go another six years when they are graduating from high school again.

01:50:05

Where do I want them to be emotionally? Because going back to my initial illustration, we may have the greatest football player around, but emotionally he's a wreck.

01:50:16

You know, we could have the greatest violinist using a woman stereotype. He's struggling with all kinds of emotional disorders.

01:50:28

Where do we want them to be emotionally, physically, socially, mentally and spiritually, and then when they leave our home, you know, we want them to be a profitable servant for God.

01:50:39

That's the key. So bringing them up in the nurture and admonition of the

01:50:44

Lord is going to be subsets for each one of these goals. You know, how am I going to help them reach these various goals emotionally, socially, physically, spiritually and mentally?

01:51:00

Yeah. You have some, Robin? Yes. I think Dan took most of it.

01:51:06

And I think that Andrew. Yeah. And Andrew took most of it.

01:51:13

But I had a couple of things. I love shepherding a child's heart. My other favorites are heart of anger.

01:51:20

It's more about building character in your child and getting that heart of anger out.

01:51:27

It talks about strategies to help them develop a heart for God to view when your child disobeys, look at it as an opportunity to teach them.

01:51:39

It's age of opportunity. Yeah. Yeah. Age of Opportunity by Ted Tripp. And one of my most recent favorites is

01:51:47

Parenting by Mark Shaw, who, of course, writes all the addiction books.

01:51:53

And the title of the book is How Not to Raise an Addict. It's so good.

01:52:00

And it's just a totally different spin on your typical child rearing book.

01:52:07

And he again starts with the first thing you teach them is obedience, delayed gratification, denying self, because it's really hard to build past that.

01:52:18

And I I also worked at a residential facility. I didn't I worked at it that I went in during the day and came home for four years with behaviors that couldn't be adequately managed in the home.

01:52:30

And then I worked for seven years at a like juvenile delinquent school, ran that and worked there for some other years.

01:52:39

And those kids are teenagers, and they honestly, truly have zero self -control.

01:52:46

They come in with so self -control and reminds me of a city without walls. And I feel bad for them.

01:52:53

Your heart actually breaks for them. The sooner we can teach our children to obey and to deny themselves.

01:53:00

There is a boatload of truth then that we can build on that foundation. Training them is discipline and reproof for anything from small things like forgetfulness or being foolish.

01:53:15

It's not a sin always. It's not a bad thing, but they need to someone needs to teach them how to be organized and responsible.

01:53:24

And that's us. I love John Maxwell in his leadership book when he said when he was young.

01:53:31

I don't remember like nine years old. His family was going to the shore and they get ready to to go to the shore.

01:53:43

And his family said, did you clean the garage, the basement or whatever? And he said, no, I'm going to do it when we get back.

01:53:49

And they said, no, you're going to do it now. These things build character in a child. And I'll finish it by saying, trust

01:53:55

God more than yourself. Trust God. Do it gently. Do it controlled and disciplined like Christ in love.

01:54:04

Don't rescue them for their own consequences. Don't give them things without responsibility and don't allow them to have self -pity.

01:54:13

All right. And so, Aaron, we'll give you the last last word before we get to the other. We've got a bunch of resources

01:54:20

I want to mention. But if you could, you know, you address the

01:54:26

Ephesians six, four passage, if you could. Yeah, I believe

01:54:32

I think everything that Dan said was 100 percent accurate. Those are all ways that we fail our children. The reason

01:54:39

I stopped taking people to Ephesians six, four to teach those truths is that the Bible has a lot to say about why we shouldn't do those types of things for our kids.

01:54:46

There's foolishness, there's sin. There's obviously things that we shouldn't do. And regardless of how our kids are going to respond to our sinning against them, obviously we shouldn't do that.

01:54:58

Right. So that's really important. I have a lot of people, though, whose children, you know, get mad at them for lots of reasons.

01:55:04

Their children get mad at them. They're provoked to anger because their parents have expectations for them.

01:55:09

They're provoked to anger because they want to go to the beach. But they said, no, you have to clean the garage. And so there's a lot of confusion around this.

01:55:15

You know, should I not make my children angry and things like that? And oftentimes, you know, you know, the

01:55:22

Bible saying we shouldn't sin against our kids. But I believe that this passage here is actually saying something far more important than simply that we shouldn't sin against our children in any way that may cause them to feel to be angry.

01:55:34

And in order to understand, I'm not going to deep dive in order to understand it. We just have to understand what's going on here in the

01:55:40

Greek. Okay. The Greek word used to be translated provoke in this verse only shows up three times in the

01:55:46

New Testament. And most people don't know this, but two of those times are in this verse. Fathers, which, by the way, is translated in another passage,

01:55:57

I believe it's in Hebrews, is translated parents. Okay, so it's yes, it's moms. This applies to you guys, too.

01:56:05

It actually reads, do not provoke your children to provoke. Or we could say, do not anger your children to anger because the word translated provoke and the word translated anger are the exact same word there.

01:56:17

Now, people see that and that confuses them, that confuses them even more so. Wow. But what's going on here?

01:56:23

The only other time in Scripture that that particular verse is used is actually in Hebrews 11, 3, where I'm sorry, not

01:56:32

Hebrews. Sorry, that's that's the passage about Romans 10, 19, Romans 10, 19.

01:56:38

And here Paul is quoting Moses. He says, Moses says,

01:56:43

I will make you jealous by that which is not a nation by a nation without understanding. I will anger you.

01:56:49

Well, that he's quoting from Deuteronomy 32, 21, which obviously doesn't use that Greek word. And God is saying they referring to the children of Israel made me jealous with what is not

01:56:59

God. They provoked me to anger with their idols. So I will make them jealous that we're jealous.

01:57:05

Okay, and the Hebrew is also what Paul is inserting our provoke word. Okay, I will make them who are not a people.

01:57:11

I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation. Sorry, sorry, that's that's the I will provoke them.

01:57:16

Sorry, but the idea here is that God is saying I am going to do to my Children. I am going to provoke them.

01:57:25

And then he turns around. He tells us not to provoke our kids. So there's a lot going on here.

01:57:30

And I think that the easiest way to sum it up goes back to a previous conversation about consequences.

01:57:36

I encourage parents all the time not to use the word punish in the English. The word punish, not something that God has called us to do as parents.

01:57:45

We are not called to punish our Children. We are called and we are commanded to give them consequences for their sin.

01:57:52

We are not the final authorities in the same way that the Bible tells us to judge not.

01:57:57

And then in other passages, it tells us that we need to judge wisely. The judgment that we're not supposed to have is a final judgment.

01:58:05

It's a cutting off. It's a saying you are done. And I can go into it. I have a whole podcast about it.

01:58:11

But the idea here in this passage, Ephesians 6, 4 is basically saying we need to not pass that final condemning judgment on our

01:58:19

Children where we've cut them off. And we basically treat them like you're never going to change. You're never going to get this.

01:58:25

That is the provocation that God wanted to bring into the lives of the

01:58:31

Children of Israel at that time. But that is his job. He is the ultimate judge. He's the one who gives up on people.

01:58:38

He is the one who punishes. And he punishes for all eternity. That is not our job. So when it comes to our kids, and we're frustrated, and we're like, oh, they're never going to get it.

01:58:48

And we don't lovingly hope all things and believe all things. And we have that idea in ourselves.

01:58:55

And we interact with them like this is never going to get better. And we're passing that final judgment.

01:59:01

That is really what Paul is focusing on here. That is that we should be avoiding.

01:59:07

Yes, your kids are going to get angry at you when you parent them biblically, if they don't want to serve

01:59:13

God. And that's not your fault. Don't worry about that. Yes, if you sin against your kids, you may tempt them to get angry at you, right?

01:59:21

You failed by sinning against them. And they're failing by sinning against you. But this unique third category, where when you cut your children off, when you have that parental, you put your hands up, and you're just like, whatever.

01:59:38

That is a provocation that God did not give to parents as a provocation under which children cannot succeed.

01:59:47

They can't grow, can't mature, they can't flourish, they can't become the people that God wants them to be. So a really important truth from this very amazing passage worth digging into more so that we all understand it better.

02:00:00

Yeah, I appreciate that. You know, I hadn't seen that those two words are the same. I was actually looking that up when you were saying it.

02:00:08

You know, but this brings up and some Dan said I was, you know, that I thought to bring up and just as maybe we'll close on this is the fact that, you know, we have to recognize that every child is different.

02:00:21

And there are some things. So my son, for example, had just some issues with his birth and things that had happened.

02:00:31

What he ended up having is he had a reaction to certain foods that he would eat.

02:00:38

And he basically, until we changed his diet, certain foods had an effect on him the way morphine works.

02:00:46

Okay, it shut off the nerves, where he just didn't feel pain.

02:00:52

I mean, I would, you know, if you try and spank him, it does nothing. And, you know, if you spank, if you don't spank, like Pastor Dan said, you know, it's got to hurt.

02:01:02

There's got to be a little pain there for it to work well when there's when there's no pain.

02:01:08

And, you know, my son never felt the pain. And he ran into a wall, split his head over his brow, had to get stitches.

02:01:18

And he was laughing like he didn't like he just never felt pain.

02:01:25

And so as a parent, I'm sitting there and trying to parent him and I do the spankings and he would he wouldn't like have no reaction.

02:01:34

And so it was it was a thing where I was producing unbeknownst to me as producing an angry child.

02:01:42

Right now, granted, we ended up changing his diet and then he was hypersensitive to like the slightest poke.

02:01:51

But in a case like that, where, you know, they're and I'm not saying that, you know, there's my son had a chemical imbalance.

02:02:00

And I know in the school system, that's a chemical imbalance. OK, give the drugs, you know. But this was somewhere we resolved it with food, but we didn't know what we're doing.

02:02:11

There were things that did work with him, though, at that time, which was just putting him in timeout. You know, so in his case, it was there wasn't the pain thing because he didn't feel it.

02:02:22

And there are there are people who who actually have issues with their nerves, where they never feel pain. Right.

02:02:28

And so one thing we have to do as parents is recognize that each of our children are different and unique.

02:02:37

And we have to recognize that we have to look at how to raise them as adults.

02:02:44

And that's what I like about Aaron, because I've always said I'm raising adults, not children. So just some things for parents to think about and consider is that we just as husbands, wives are different, mothers and fathers are different with the way we're going to handle the raising of kids.

02:03:03

Well, guess what? The kids are all different, too. And they're not like us. So what

02:03:10

I was trying to find, I was trying to find that book that I was referred to earlier, and I don't know, some some music or something started coming through.

02:03:17

So I had some hat on the page. I finally found it. But it is Purposeful and Persistent Parenting by John and Cindy Roquette.

02:03:27

So Purposeful and Persistent Parenting that used to be on our in our store at Striving Fraternity .org.

02:03:35

It's I didn't find it there. That's why I had to go elsewhere to look. But I will get that on there.

02:03:41

And I will say that I'm going to try to put in the show notes these different resources that that each of these counselors have recommended that we put together.

02:03:52

And I'm going to try some of them will have just I have to legally say some of them will be affiliate links when you click on them.

02:03:59

So Striving Fraternity will get some support from Amazon for that. So some of the ones in some we've already mentioned,

02:04:07

Sacred Marriage by Gary Thompson. We mentioned that one. I think Robin mentioned that.

02:04:13

How to Act Right When Your Spouse Acts Wrong by Vermick, if I pronounce that right.

02:04:23

Okay. Marriage Matters by Winston Smith.

02:04:31

The Sinner, When Sinners Say I Do by David Harvey. That's just a great title.

02:04:39

It's so fitting of what marriage is, right? And then this one, I think that Robin mentioned this one.

02:04:47

Marry Wisely, Marry Well by by Ernie Baker. We have The Exemplary Husband by Stuart Scott.

02:04:54

That is an excellent book. And it's getting two thumbs up from Aaron. The Biblical Marriage Relationship.

02:05:04

And that one, I will provide a link in the show notes of the podcast. Maybe not the

02:05:09

YouTube. But if you go and follow the Apologetics Live podcast, there is a link to get that one free.

02:05:17

I think that's provided from Anthony here. And then Biblical Love will also have a link where you'll be able to get it free.

02:05:24

I love free things. Under Parenting, we've heard this book several times tonight.

02:05:30

Shepherding a Child's Heart by Ted Tripp. One of the ones I think most people refer to and go to.

02:05:39

Don't Make Me Count to Three. I have not read that book by Ginger Hubbard.

02:05:47

Teach Them Diligently by Blue Proleto. That is a very good book.

02:05:52

Age of Accountability, we mentioned a couple of times by Paul Tripp. I don't know that we mentioned this one.

02:05:58

The Heart of Anger by Lou Paliello. That is a very good book.

02:06:05

You Never Stop Being a Parent by Fitzpatrick.

02:06:12

Neuhauser and Fitzpatrick. And then the last one. Fitzpatrick and Jim Neuhauser. Then the last one is

02:06:19

Come Back, Barbara, Regarding a Prodigal Adult Children by John C.

02:06:25

Miller and Barbara Miller. So those are the resources. I will put those in the show notes so you have them of the podcast.

02:06:34

I'll also put in the affiliate links where we have them so that you know that Struggling with Parenting will be receiving some if you get it through that affiliate.

02:06:43

We would appreciate that if you do. And so next week, our topics are going to be, you know, a little bit less things and less tense things as marriage and parenting.

02:06:56

Let's get to easier topics like anxiety and depression. Thank you.

02:07:01

Yes. Yeah. I will say this when it comes to marriage.

02:07:08

One of the things I do in marriage counseling is I'll put an object on the table in front of the married couple.

02:07:17

I'll put objects on the other ends of the table. So it makes like a triangle.

02:07:23

And then I will say that whatever the object is in the front, that's going to represent Christ. And I'll ask them as a husband and wife, and I just take whatever the other two objects are, and I move them closer on that triangle to the center, which is

02:07:37

Christ. And I say, what happens if both of us individually, husband and wife, individually are just focused on getting closer and closer to Christ?

02:07:46

And they end up realizing, well, we get closer together. When marriages are, people are struggling.

02:07:53

And unfortunately, often people come to counselors with their marriage when they're at their wits end. And they've already, it's like the last straw for them.

02:08:03

Go sooner. But as was said very early on by Anthony, Amy, and Pastor Dan and Robin, it's about knowing the

02:08:14

Bible. The closer, the more we are in the word, the more we're drawing closer to Christ, the more we're, as in our marriage, we'll draw closer to one another.

02:08:24

So I hope this has been helpful for you. If it was, please share it with others. Next week, as we talk anxiety and depression,

02:08:33

I am going to have two ways, if you struggle with that, that you will probably either love or hate that can help, that won't have anything to do with the

02:08:44

Bible. What is that? Well, you're going to have to wait till next week for that. So for that, remember to strive to make today an eternal day for the glory of God.