December 21, 2023 Show with Eli Ayala on “Calvinism & Molinism Compared & Contrasted in the Light of Scripture”

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I'm absolutely thrilled to have back on the program a returning guest, an old friend of mine. His name is

Eli Ayala, founder of Revealed Apologetics, and we're going to be addressing a very controversial theme that seems to have been more in the public eye in the realm of theological debate, discussion, and dispute these days.

The theme of our program today is Calvinism and Molinism Compared and Contrasted in the

Light of Scripture. It's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Eli Ayala.

Well, it's an honor and a privilege to be back on. I really love your show, and I recommend it to people all the time.

You have some great topics and great guests, and so I'm just happy to be here. It's always great to have you on, and before we get into the topic at hand, let our listeners know about Revealed Apologetics.

Yeah, well, my name is Eli Ayala, like you said, and I'm the founder of Revealed Apologetics. It is primarily a

YouTube channel that covers apologetics, generally speaking, with a specific emphasis on presuppositional apologetics.

I interview various scholars, kind of like how you do, and I teach various aspects and the ins and the outs of a presuppositional apologetic method.

When I'm not doing that, I try to write articles on the website at revealedapologetics .com, and I am a middle school teacher at a

Christian private school in Cary, North Carolina. I teach 7th grade Old Testament and 8th grade logic and debate.

I have three kids. I'm married with my wife here in Clayton, North Carolina, and that's about it.

Well, if anybody wants more details on Revealed Apologetics, you can go to the website revealedapologetics .com.

Revealedapologetics .com, very easy to remember, and God willing, I will be remembering to announce that near the end of the program.

Well, what makes this conversation even more interesting to me,

Eli, is that you are now a theologically reformed

Christian. You are a five -point Calvinist, as we have been nicknamed, and yet at one time, at least for a brief period of time, you were a professing

Molinist. So, I would ask of you to please define those two systems of theology in a summary form, starting with Calvinism and then working on to Molinism, and then we'll continue to hear your story about what triggered a questioning in your mind as to the authenticity and biblical orthodoxy of what has become known as Molinism.

So, let's start with your definitions of Calvinism and then Molinism. Yeah, well,

Calvinism can be understood kind of in a broad sense and then in a narrow sense. So, broadly speaking,

I would define Calvinism as the Protestant theological system of John Calvin and his successors, which basically develops

Luther's doctrine of justification by faith alone and places a great emphasis upon the grace of God and the doctrine of predestination.

So, that's kind of a broad brush stroke. More narrowly speaking, and this is more related to how most people understand

Calvinism, we can understand Calvinism as referring to a sort of Calvinistic soteriology or doctrine of salvation, which has with it, associated with it, the acronym

TULIP. So, it more narrowly speaks of kind of a particular Calvinistic understanding of how salvation works, and that's traditionally understood within the acronym

TULIP. As your listeners will know, total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace, perseverance of the saints, and some people have added an

S at the end of that for sovereignty. So, you know, total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace, perseverance of the saints, and just the overarching principle of God's meticulous sovereignty.

So, those are the two ways I would understand Calvinism. There's a broad sense and a narrow sense, which is what most people are associated with.

This would be a real summary of Calvinism that I used to announce at the beginning of a program that I helped to create in the 1990s called

The Voice of Sovereign Grace on WMCA Radio. It was a reformed program airing five nights a week, and every night there was a different pastor whose sermon was aired in that program.

We had five different churches sponsoring that. And I used to begin in the opening announcements by summarizing

Calvinism this way, God alone saves sinners because sinners cannot even help to save themselves.

Yeah. And that would be more in line with that narrow definition.

Yeah. And, of course, there are those that claim to be four -point Calvinists, typically plucking the petal of you off the tulip.

But when you pluck any of the petals off the tulip, the whole flower dies. Yeah, I agree.

I actually agree with that. There are some people who argue that there's not a necessary connection between the individual points, but I see that there's a necessary connection, so I would agree with that.

Okay, and now let's move on to Molinism, who

I believe had a founding father who was a

Spanish Jesuit priest in the 16th century, Roman Catholic priest, obviously.

Luis de Molina, so if you could pick up there and give us a summary of that system of thought.

Yeah, well, your listeners are obviously going to be familiar with the date 1517, which was kind of the kickoff, so to speak, of the

Reformation. You take a look at the dates for Molina. Molina was born 1535 to 1600, so he's right there in the heart of that Reformation period.

And he is considered a counter -reformer, so he specifically is set out to come against what was being promulgated by the early reformers there.

As you said, he was a Jesuit. He is, with respect to his education, he was a very highly scholastic and intelligent individual.

So if anyone is familiar with scholasticism and the details and philosophical analysis that they offered on various theological topics, that would hopefully create a context for people to understand what sort of thinker

Luis de Molina was. Now, historically, he developed a very unique way of understanding the nature of God's omniscience.

So when we define Molinism, it is inappropriate to necessarily connect it with a system of soteriology, although there is going to be a crossover.

It is primarily a specific view of God's omniscience. And so Molinism teaches that God exercises his sovereignty primarily through his omniscience and that he infallibly knows what free creatures, this is key, what they would do in any given situation.

And so the theologian, I don't know if he identifies as a theologian, but Kenneth Keithley, who's over there at Northeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, he wrote a book some years back called

Salvation and Sovereignty, a Molinist approach. And he defined Molinism and specifically the idea that God's knowledge is broken up into these categories.

The categories theologically go as follows. And then I'll give you kind of the easy way to remember the kind of how he laid it out in his book.

God has what we call natural knowledge, God's knowledge of everything that could happen.

We have God's middle knowledge, which is a key feature of Molinism. God's knowledge of what would happen, his counterfactual knowledge.

Then there is the divine decree. So Molinists affirm that God decrees whatsoever comes to pass.

And then in light of that decree, there is what we call God's free knowledge, his knowledge of what will in fact occur.

So Molinists understand God's knowledge in a way that it can be broken up into his could knowledge, his would knowledge and his will knowledge.

He has all knowledge of what could be, what would be. And once he decrees, then he has his foreknowledge, what will in fact transpire.

And so a key feature to understand what sets Molina's view apart is that notice that God's knowledge of what would happen actually is located logically prior to his divine decree.

That is important because Calvinists, we would affirm that God has counterfactual knowledge. God knows what would happen in any set of circumstances.

But for the Molinists, they place this knowledge logically before his actual decree.

And it's actually that placement of God's counterfactual knowledge right where it is, is what allows for what we call libertarian free will, which is the sort of free will that's typically associated with Arminianism and views like that.

So Molinism is basically a view of God's omniscience in terms of which God's knowledge is broken up into these three categories.

His natural knowledge, his middle knowledge, and once he divinely decrees what world he wants to actualize, then he has his foreknowledge, his knowledge of what will in fact happen.

So those are the two views laid out there. There are some similarities and crossovers between Molinism and Calvinism.

It's very easy to kind of talk past one another when you're interacting with the Molinists because a lot of the sovereignty concepts,

God being meticulously sovereign, a Molinist can affirm. But of course, they'll have some qualifications that will become important later on in the discussion that you might be having with them.

What was, from your understanding of the history behind this, do you know of what motivations

Luis de Molina had for digging deeper into a theological study in regard to the omniscience of God, the foreknowledge of God that led him to his conclusions?

Obviously, you already said he was a counter -reformer. Sure. Were some of the arguments of the reformers making him uncomfortable, necessitating that he find some way to, in his mind, give a more balanced approach to not only

God's omniscience but also the will of man, than was found either in the reformers or in Rome?

Yeah. So Molina, again, in his historical context, he is a counter -reformer.

So he is intentionally trying to develop responses to what the reformers were putting out.

But he's also exploring, I think, an important question, a theological question that I think is important not just for the

Molinists and the Arminian. It's for the Calvinists as well. And it's the question of how do we reconcile a meticulously sovereign

God and moral responsibility, blameworthiness and praiseworthiness. If God determines all things, in what meaningful sense are we morally blameworthy or praiseworthy for our actions?

And so Molinism is trying to answer that Gordian knot sort of question. It's how do we reconcile

God's control and man's sufficient freedom such that he is appropriately blameworthy or praiseworthy for his actions.

So it is a response to the Reformation and it's an attempt to answer this really thought -provoking and important question.

And it is very much related to also alleviating the idea that God is in any detrimental way the author of evil.

So I want to go a little light on the Arminians and the Calvinists. And I know that there is a lot of discussion back and forth between Calvinists and Molinists and Arminians.

And we have the name calling back and forth and Calvinists will often say that Arminians and Molinists, they just worship free will and God is sovereign.

We go back and forth. However, I think one of the important facts of the discussion and the debate is that I think both sides desire to protect

God's sovereignty. We want to give credit where we believe he's sovereign.

We disagree as to how that plays out. But we want to have an appropriate context for understanding

God's sovereignty in relation to evil. We don't want to say that God is evil. We don't want to say without qualification that God is in a detrimental sense the author of evil.

So I think all of the sides of the debate with, of course, some exceptions, we're trying to understand

God in a way that will protect his character in some way. And it just so happens to be that depending on the theological view that one lands on, that can be detrimental to that cause because if you adopt a view that's unbiblical, then you're not protecting

God's character. You're distorting God's word and you're not understanding how he's revealed himself. So it's a very complicated and nuanced debate.

But those are the issues as I see it. And did this understanding that Molina had gain any popularity in his day?

And just to let you know, I never had heard of Molinism till maybe seven years, eight years ago when it started to rise in popularity.

I think it's still a minority view, unless I'm completely misunderstanding the climate of theological, the theological arena.

But William Lane Craig, I believe, became its most prominent living champion.

I don't even know how long ago that was. But I was completely oblivious to this concept, both as a

Roman Catholic, and of course I left the Roman Catholic Church perhaps officially when

I was born again. But I stopped attending church faithfully when I was a teenager and didn't have very much of an understanding, a deep understanding of Roman Catholicism until I became a born -again believer.

And began arranging the debates that I've done with Dr. James R. White and Roman Catholic opponents.

But I had never even heard of Molinism either as a

Catholic or as a Protestant until, as I said, seven years ago. So throughout history, as I was saying initially, did this gain any kind of foothold in the 16th century as a popular understanding?

And did it continue in any way as a popular understanding among the heirs of the

Reformation who began to perhaps depart from some of the core truths of the

Reformers? Yeah, definitely. It did not become a popular view.

In fact, a lot of Catholics were uncomfortable with the sort of sovereignty that Molinism puts forth.

So it wasn't very popular. It did not disappear into obscurity.

There were people who knew about it. For example, Francis Turretin has in one of his works a response to Molinism.

So he's definitely aware of it, but it's by no means a popular view, nor has it been the dominant view at any one point in history since its development.

So it's definitely been a smaller view. I think it's been brought back into the arena, so to speak.

Not so much through the work of William Lane Craig, although that's definitely – he's definitely the face of Molinism as I see it now.

But William Lane Craig was heavily influenced by Dr. Alvin Plantinga who is considered one of the greatest living

Christian philosophers today. And he is associated with providing an answer to the problem of evil and in his research in exploring the problem of evil and various attacks upon Christian theism.

In exploring Molina's views, he saw that in Molina's view, there was – there are different ways that we could answer the problem of evil if we adopt certain conceptions of God's omniscience and his relation to his creation and whatnot.

So I think the popularity, the resurgence of it comes through the philosophical work of Alvin Plantinga.

And then of course, you have the bridge from scholarship to the popular apologetic arena in the person of William Lane Craig.

Now, of course, William Lane Craig is a scholar, but I would also say that he has one foot in scholarship and one foot in the popular arena.

And of course, in the world of apologetics, he is the most influential apologist right now alive, whether for better or for worse.

People have different views on him, but he is the bridge that I think popularized Alvin Plantinga's rediscovery of Molina's work.

But it has not been the majority view or anything like that. It is widely held.

I'm going to be using that term very carefully, widely. It's accepted by those who are more philosophically minded for obvious reasons.

Once you start getting into logical priority of the different moments of God's knowledge, it gets very complicated and philosophical really quick.

It's especially going to resonate with people who are part of those discussions with respect to God's relationship with evil and things like that and free will.

But it has never been, to my knowledge, a dominant view or a popularly held view.

I think you are correct when you say it is still a minority. However, it is a very influential minority since it's held by people who are highly respected in the field of Christian philosophy and theology.

And you've listed evangelical Protestants who have championed this.

What about Rome where it originated? I know that Dave Armstrong professes to be a

Molinist who is a Roman Catholic apologist. But I don't know of any others and I've conducted or arranged,

I should say, many, many debates on Roman Catholicism. And I never heard a

Molinist argument come up that I can recall unless it was disguised somehow. What's going on in the

Church of Rome as far as Molinism is concerned? Yeah, to my knowledge, it has not been widely accepted by Roman Catholics.

It's not a leading view amongst Catholics. You'd have a select few. Even in Molina's day, it was very controversial.

So I wouldn't be able to identify key Catholic thinkers that held to it because,

I mean, even in Catholicism, I think it's a minority view to my understanding. Well, we're going to go to our first commercial break.

And if anybody has a question that you'd like to ask, please submit it to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Let's say you are in a church, your pastor is a Molinist, and you are starting to question the biblical orthodoxy of that system.

And you obviously don't want to draw attention to your identity at this point. Or it could be a whole host of other reasons that would compel you to remain anonymous because the issue is personal and private over which you are asking a question.

But if you're just asking a general question about the biblical origins of the

Reformed faith that my guest and I adhere to, and also the arguments made both for and against the

Reformed faith by not only Reformers defending it, but Molinists opposing it.

And then where the waters even get more muddied is when professing

Calvinists. Also, there are some that claim to be Molinists simultaneously as being

Calvinists. Whatever the question is, if it's a general question, send us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence.

Don't go away. We'll be right back with Eli Ayala of Revealed Apologetics right after these messages from our sponsors.

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Go to revealedapologetics .com, revealedapologetics .com. But Eli, if you could, let us know what was going through your mind as a professing

Molinist that first made you begin to question that path that you were on as far as theology is concerned.

Yeah, well, one of the things that really impacted me was the book

Salvation and Sovereignty, a Molinist approach written by Kenneth Keithley, a professor at Southeastern Baptist Seminary.

And what I appreciated about the book was that he defended a Molinist perspective side by side with a

Calvinist perspective. So I was able to see them both in touch with one another. And I thought in the way that he wrote and the way that he kind of laid out his argument, it was very easy to follow.

And I began to be swayed by what he was saying. And then I eventually adopted a Molinist perspective.

Now, without going into the weeds, I mean, I held the view for a little while and convinced others of it.

Just as there are cage -stage Calvinists, there are cage -stage

Molinists. Man, you got to hear me out, man. I learned this really interesting view.

It answers this really difficult question of how to understand how God is in complete control and man is sufficiently free and all these sorts of things.

And I got into it. I read a lot of the philosophical literature. And it was – let's just say eventually it became very dry.

I found myself not in the scriptures as much as I wanted to be.

That's not to say that there are Molinists out there who also try to incorporate the scriptures. I'm not saying that. But for me, it was so philosophically dense that I found myself really thirsting for something grounded in scripture.

Now, when I defended Molinism, I often repeated a lot of the philosophical argumentation and things like that.

But it wasn't until I went away with my family to Camp of the

Woods. I don't know if you've heard of this before. You ever hear Camp of the Woods? Yes, I have. Yep, where they used to have various speakers.

I know Ravi Zacharias used to be a speaker there. And so back in the day before all of his stuff came out, it was pretty popular.

And so I remember when we went, I was torn. I was like going back and forth. If my wife was here, she'd tell you like he was completely checked out.

I was in deep thought grappling with Molinism and Calvinism. And I was staying up late when my family was sleeping in their cabin and I was in like this little lobby area.

And on my iPad, I was watching a debate between Dr. James White and Leighton Flowers.

And there is something that Dr. White asked Leighton in the cross -examination that just convicted me.

He asked Dr. Flowers, when you are defending your position, you're explaining your position.

Do you use the same exegesis in defending your view here than you would say when you're defending the doctrine of the deity of Christ or the

Trinity or anything like that? And Leighton just blatantly responded no. And the point was to show that there is an inconsistency.

When he is defending the core doctrines of the Christian faith, he uses one kind of exegesis.

But then when he's arguing Calvinism and promoting his provisionism, he's using another kind of exegesis.

Now, that debate had nothing to do with Molinism. But what that question exposed was the fact that when

I was defending Molinism against my Calvinist friends, I was using an inconsistent exegesis.

And I had to look at myself in the mirror and say, hey, when I defend the Trinity, when I defend justification by faith alone,

I do not use the same kind of exegesis I do when I'm defending Molinism. And that really convicted me.

Shortly after that, reading and in the scriptures and talking to people on the phone, I was veered back into the reform camp where I now comfortably exist and have no sign of turning back.

What I find when studying the reform perspective is whether you agree with reform theology and Calvinism or not, it is very difficult for you to study the issue and not be in the scriptures.

You ever notice that even if you disagree with the view, you're in the weeds of the text.

And I think that's where we need to be when we're trying to figure out these questions. And so what I also found myself was that Molinism, what

I find interesting is that it is rooted and it is born out of an attempt to answer a theological question, whereas Calvinism not so much.

It's trying to allow the scriptures to speak for itself and doesn't have kind of this motivation of answering a difficult, difficult question.

And so those aspects of my studies really helped me have these issues clarified.

And now I happily am a rabid five point Calvinist. But but given the struggle that I that I went through,

I am very sympathetic towards people who have these sorts of questions, you know, on Calvinism.

How do we explain, you know, the accusation of God being the author of sin and God's love and God's grace and these sorts of things?

So I'm very much more understanding now, having been through the struggle that I went through.

And that was the very question that you were mentioning, that Molinists are on a mission to come up with another answer.

It's can God be the author of sin? Right. That definitely is an aspect of alleviating

God from that. It's a big part of it. Now, we'll define that because that is a very controversial issue.

And let me introduce into that conversation about can

God be the author of evil? I'll have you exegete for me, if you don't mind, a text in the second

Samuel 12. I have never heard an adequate answer from an

Arminian who hears this text when I when

I read it to them trying to defend the truth that God is in sovereign control over every single thing that occurs in heaven and on earth.

There's the well -known scene in Scripture where after David, King David, not only commits adultery with Bathsheba and impregnates her, and now he's got to get rid of her husband,

Uriah the Hittite, so that he will not be exposed as an adulterer being the father of this child within Bathsheba's womb.

So he winds up getting Uriah the Hittite murdered on the battlefield.

A very close friend of David and his most loyal warrior has him murdered just to cover up his adultery.

And, you know, we have the story, the allegory that Nathan presents to David as if it is a real story about a man who has a lamb, raises it up as his own child.

And the rich man comes and since he's having a guest at his home, he steals the poor man's lamb and kills it and eats it with his friend.

And when David hears this story from Nathan, he wants the man executed. And then we have

Nathan the prophet confronting David, and he says,

Because you have despised me and have taken the wife of Uriah the

Hittite to be your wife. Thus says the Lord, Behold, I will raise up evil against you out of your own house, and I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your neighbor.

And he shall lie with your wives in the sight of this sun, for you did it secretly.

But I will do this thing before all Israel and before the sun.

Now, how does an Arminian or a Molinist explain

God clearly saying that he has orchestrated these evil events that include adultery in this chastisement that is coming upon David?

Yeah, again, when you say when the Lord says, I will do, the

Molinist is going to happily agree with that text. He's not going to disagree with the text.

The question is, how does God accomplish it? Does he accomplish it through means of determinism or does he accomplish it through means of his omniscience working together with his knowledge of the counterfactuals of creaturely freedom and so forth?

So again, this is the issue. This is when we get into discussions with Arminians and Molinists and whatnot.

When we all affirm, for example, that God is sovereign, we're all affirming the sovereignty of God.

But what that looks like in light of our systems is going to differ. So the question

I think that the Molinist would bring up is, well, how does God accomplish that? The Calvinist may give a different metaphysical answer as to how that plays out.

And the Molinist, of course, is going to have their differing metaphysical explanation as to how God brings about things with certainty.

So it's really reading between the lines. We want to be careful that when we quote a scripture that the mere quoting of the scripture, it has to be interpreted.

Sometimes the scripture sounds like it's saying something, but it's not actually going into the details of what that looks like.

So the question is not that God will bring it about. It's how he does it. Does he do it in such a way that preserves himself from being detrimentally, in a negative way, the author of sin?

Or is he the author of sin in a way that seems to be conflicting with other passages of scripture?

And, of course, the Molinist or the Arminian might be quick to point out, well, hey, if Calvinism is true and he determines things the way the

Calvinist says he determines it, it seems to be in conflict with these other passages of scripture which say that God is not the author of sin and things like that.

So I think that's the angle they probably would take it. It's the how he accomplishes it that's going to be – that's going to make the big difference.

Well, perhaps you could explain at least two scenarios of how you think either of those positions would seek to exegete that.

Like, for instance, I have always heard that as a Calvinist that God in his sovereignty does not need to create in the minds of unregenerate people evil.

He uses the evil, the unregenerate, as his instruments, and they are freely choosing to do these evil things because even

Calvinists believe that there is a freedom of the will to act according to one's nature.

There is a different will before we are regenerate than there is after we are regenerate, and since before we're regenerate, we are constantly seeking to please ourselves above all else.

We freely choose to sin. We freely enjoy sin, and therefore, it's not like God is turning morally neutral people into wicked sinners.

They already are, and he uses them as instruments to bring about, which he has done even in the most powerful and prominent way in the scriptures, the murder of his own son on Golgotha to bring about the redemption of his people.

Of course, God the Father himself ordained before the history of the world that that murder would take place, and Jesus Christ voluntarily laid his life down freely, but at the same time, there were human instruments used, both the

Jews who cried out for Christ's death and the Romans who physically nailed him there.

But what would be an explanation from both sides of that, at least one explanation that each side would have?

Well, the Molinists would say that God knows what people would do in any given set of circumstances, so God knows that David would do what he's going to do by placing him in those circumstances, and in God placing them in those circumstances,

David uses his libertarian free will to do the evil that he does, and God chooses to respond to that libertarian evil choice in the way that he does.

That's part of his decree, so when we appeal to decree, a Molinist would say, yeah, God decrees whatsoever comes to pass.

A Molinist affirms that, but they also affirm that in God decreeing whatsoever comes to pass, because in the categories of God's knowledge,

God's knowledge of what David would do is not after he decrees.

God's knowledge of what David would do exists logically prior to his decree, and so given that system that the

Molinists have set up, yes, God knows exactly what David's going to do, but he's able to do it utilizing libertarian free will because of how they set up that counterfactual knowledge within those various moments of God's knowledge.

So they could affirm, yeah, God wanted to accomplish the punishment of someone, so he places libertarianly free creatures in particular set of circumstances, knows exactly how they would respond given the various context he places them in, and they choose freely, and God accomplishes his purposes.

So they would say, see, no problem. Don't look behind the curtain.

There's some more things, right? It answers the question quickly, right? It's like, yeah, God can do that, but there are deeper questions we need to ask when examining the claims.

So as a Reformed Christian yourself now, I know that we would reject the term libertarian free will as an unbiblical falsehood, but we do believe, as I just mentioned, that people are free to act according to their nature.

They're free to act according to what pleases them, unlike the slanderous stereotype that non -Calvinists have that somehow men are being forced against their will to do things, whether it is to reject

Christ or to obey him. They're being forced against their will rather than, of course, as the

Calvinist would exegete that from scriptures as being given a new will, being given a new heart, and so on.

Sure. And which the new heart gives in him a new will where he desires to obey

God. But how would you as a Reformed person exegete that which would be different than a

Molinist's understanding? Exegete which portion? Well, about God saying that he will raise up evil within David's household and even will give

David's wives to lie with his neighbor. He's orchestrating, it seems—

Right. —the act of adultery. Well, I wouldn't—well, I want to be very careful.

I would affirm that God does it, but I would also bring this into the discussion.

How does God accomplish that? That's an important question. Right. The Molinist is going to have his answer.

Certain Calvinists will have their metaphysical explanation, and I would take the route of many of the

Reformed creeds in which we affirm that God decrees whatsoever comes to pass.

But we are silent in giving a metaphysical explanation as to how that's brought about.

Calvinists might hold to any number of metaphysical explanations as to how God accomplishes that.

I would agree with Calvin when the Scripture is silent, we should remain silent as well, right? We should make an end of trying to explore the details of that.

God tells us that he brings about evil, but he doesn't go into the details all the time of, metaphysically speaking, how that works.

I think it's very useful to back up and—because here's the claim, right? If we affirm that God brings evil in kind of that bare sense without talking about the philosophy and the deep theology involved in that, that does look like God is the author of sin in an inappropriate way that seems to be in conflict with other areas of Scripture.

But we need to define our terms when we're accused of holding to a position as Reformed Christians, as Calvinists, that we teach a

God that is the author of sin. That phrase itself is often ill -defined or not defined at all, and I think a particular quote from Jonathan Edwards I found to be very useful in clarifying this, and if you don't mind me,

I'd like to read it. Definitely. I hope it will be useful to your listeners. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, so this is

Jonathan Edwards on the author of sin objection that's often lodged against Calvinists. He says this, and I quote,

In this sense, I utterly deny God to be the author of sin, rejecting such an imputation on the most high as what is infinitely to be abhorred and deny any such thing to be the consequence of what

I have laid down. But if by author of sin is meant the permitter or not a hinderer of sin and at the same time a disposer of the state of events in such a manner for wise, holy, and most excellent ends and purposes that sin, if it be permitted or not hindered, will most certainly and infallibly follow,

I say, if this be all that is meant by being the author of sin, though I dislike and reject the phrase as that which by use and custom is apt to carry another sense, it is not reproach for the most high to be thus the author of sin.

So in that latter part, this is no longer the quote. I would say, yeah, God is the author of sin in the sense of the second sense that we mentioned, but that Jonathan Edwards mentions not in the first sense in which he is a sinner.

He is the agent, all these sorts of things, and those qualifications are almost never brought up by the other side.

They just say, look, Calvinism makes God the author of sin, and when we bring up the passages like you just brought up that I will cause these things, they will equate that with God being the agent, the actor, the doer of a wicked thing.

Yeah, in that sense I would reject the idea that our view would entail God being inappropriately the author of sin at that point.

So these distinctions need to be made, and just as the Molinist will say, yes,

God can bring about evil, but how does he do it? That's the key question. I agree with them.

That is the key question. So when someone pins the author of sin on the Calvinist, what they're not allowing us to do is to ask that same question.

Well, wait a minute. Yes, God decrees and whatsoever comes to pass, but that we're not saying that he is the sinner, the agent, the actor of sin, the doer of a wicked thing.

We're also using the important question of how he brings that about.

We're not told. That he brings it about, we are. And so you can't say that our view makes

God the author of sin in a terrible way unless you are thinking that our position commits us to a particular metaphysical explanation that would cause a problem.

And I don't think that's – the Calvinist doesn't have to affirm that he knows metaphysically how God brings it about.

As you know, Chris, we make distinctions between primary causation and secondary causation and those sorts of things and all the qualifications that our opponents don't let us explain.

But those qualifications, I think, are important in these sorts of discussions. Yes, of course, because if God forced men to sin, they would have an excuse.

Yes. Whereas Romans 1 basically God has revealed himself in nature just as much – just enough,

I should say, to leave him without an excuse for rejecting him. There's not enough salvific information in nature, but men are…

But you're used – Chris, your use of forced is exactly what people think we mean. Yes, of course, even when it comes to salvation.

They think that God is forcing us against our will to follow him.

As the old saying goes, dragged kicking and screaming to heaven, which is ridiculous.

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Give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.

Let's see. We have Brenda in Auburn, Indiana, who says, could you tell us what is it about Calvinism that most angers

Molinists, and what is it about Molinism that most angers Calvinists? Well, I don't think it's a thing that angers.

I just think each side is trying to be either faithful to the scriptures as they see it or to protect some aspect of God's character.

I think many people who are Molinists are Molinists because they think it is the best conceptual framework that allows them to treat with balance the two sets of scriptures that emphasize

God's meticulous sovereignty and what appears to be the sort of freedom that Molinists are holding to, this idea of libertarian freedom.

With respect to the Calvinists towards the Molinists, I think what angers Calvinists, especially really biblically -minded

Calvinists, is Molinism appears to be a philosophy that is draped over the scriptures and acts as a lens through which the scriptures are to be interpreted.

And so many Calvinists see Molinism as just kind of philosophy and not allowing the text of scripture to speak for itself.

Calvinists are also upset at the fact that there is sweet little exegesis, at least exegesis of any depth, that Molinists often use to support their views.

That's not to say that there is no exegesis. As a matter of fact, many people might not know this, but the reason why

Molinists tend to sound very philosophical and not as biblical as many would like is not because there are no scriptures that Molinists appeal to, but it is primarily because of the way

Molinism has become popular, and that has been primarily through the field of philosophy. Like I mentioned at the beginning of the program, the influence of Alvin Plantinga and William Lane Craig, a lot of people who latch onto these views have learned it from them, and so they are using the language that is used to convey the position.

This happens to people all the time. I've studied Greg Bonson and Cornelius Van Til, and when I explain presuppositional apologetics,

I tend to use the philosophical jargon, and I have to remind myself, wait a minute, if this is rooted in scripture, then perhaps

I could start using more biblically consistent language when describing the view. But I think that because Molinism has been primarily learned through the philosophical arena, you don't normally see it associated with kind of a close link with deep exegesis of scripture.

Now that being said, there is an entire, I don't know if this is true today, but last time I checked, there is an entire area of Molina's writings that are not translated into English yet.

They might be now, but back in the day when I was looking into these things, there is an entire portion where he offers biblical support for his position.

Of course, we don't think that he succeeds in that endeavor, but there are attempts to do so.

So I think this is something that bothers Calvinists, is really the lack of biblical exegesis in support of the view.

It smells too much like philosophy governing theology and being imposed upon the text.

So that's how I would see how both sides would view each other. And by the way, when you said that there was no anger involved, have you seen and heard

Molinists talk about Calvinists? Yeah, well, it depends, right? I mean, it depends which circles you run in, right?

There is, of course, and I know you would recognize this, and many people who are Reformed, there is a large hatred towards Calvinism.

Just mentioning Calvinism, there is hatred. But my interactions with Molinists, I can only speak for myself, it has not been vitriolic to the extent that maybe perhaps others have experienced.

So I'm just speaking from my experience. Yes, we will always have this problem when

Christians rightly take very seriously the correctness of their theology and the biblical orthodox of their theology.

That's correct. When we seek to be meticulous about that and expose error, since we are all sinners, we very often don't handle those differences correctly in a spirit of humility and love.

That is correct. And on the other side of the spectrum, you have those who don't really care about theology and doctrine at all.

And, in fact, I just heard a prominent Jewish, conservative

Jewish individual who has written a commentary on the

Hebrew Scriptures, and he publicly said, I hate theology. I just like to highlight the activities of men and the faithfulness and obedience of men, and that's where I focus on our need to obey.

But I hate theology. I mean, he's written a commentary, for crying out loud, of the

Hebrew Scriptures. But we also have Riley in Copper City, Michigan, who says, if I'm not mistaken,

I thought I heard either you or Chris Arnzen mention that there are

Calvinists that profess to be Molinists simultaneously. Why is that a problem? Yeah, well, as I mentioned before, one of the key features of Molinism is the assumption of libertarian free will.

And, of course, if we are familiar with libertarianism, let's take a look real quick here.

Libertarianism, as a view, is basically the thesis that freedom is incompatible, genuine freedom is incompatible with determinism, things being determined, plus the claim that at least some of our actions are free, and so determinism is false.

So libertarianism rejects determinism, and it places a great emphasis on a particular kind of freedom and ability to choose other than what we in fact choose.

Now, when you put this together in light of what we as reform thinkers would take to be something that is clearly biblical, and it is the doctrine of total depravity and total inability,

I do not think that one could make libertarian free will jive well with what the

Bible says about the human condition. For example, the Bible says that man is deceitful,

Jeremiah 17 .9, we're full of evil, Mark 7 .21 -23, we love the darkness rather than the light,

John 3 .19, we cannot come to God on our own, John 6 .44, we do not seek for God, Romans 3 .10

-12, we are helpless and ungodly, Romans 5 .6, we're slaves to sin, Romans 6 .20, John 8 .34,

we cannot receive spiritual things, 1 Corinthians 2 .14, and we're dead in our sins,

Ephesians 2 .1. And Merry Christmas to all! That's right, that's right.

We are all on the naughty list, and we cannot get ourselves off the naughty list.

Absent from a monergistic work of God. And so I do not think that these issues, the issues of libertarian free will, the sort of freedom that the

Molinist is trying to shoot for, I don't think it's compatible with other things that I think are explicit in Scripture.

And that's why, interestingly enough, in a discussion between a

Calvinistic philosopher by the name of Guillaume Bignon and a Molinist philosopher by the name of Kirk MacGregor, both gentlemen

I know, they're very, very nice gentlemen, brilliant in their own way.

But in a discussion between this Calvinist and Molinist, the

Calvinist brought up an interesting claim. He kind of quoted Martin Luther in terms of his argument against libertarian free will and this idea of what's known in the philosophical circles as PAP, P -A -P, the principle of alternative possibilities.

In other words, you cannot be morally blameworthy or praiseworthy unless you have the ability to choose other than what, in fact, you do choose.

And so Luther's claim, Martin Luther's claim, is that fallen sinners are blameworthy for failing to live a sinless life even though original sin makes them unable to live a sinless life.

In other words, the natural man who is tainted with original sin is unable to live a sinless life and he is blameworthy for it, which is

Martin Luther's kind of attempt to show that this principle of alternative possibilities is not the case and hence it's false.

And so in the course of their discussion, the Molinist, it at least appeared to me that he flat out rejected original sin.

He said, I don't find a good reason to believe that original sin is true or something along those lines. I might be misquoting him, but that was the implication.

Now, if someone is willing to drop original sin so easily, I think there's a problem there.

Because I think original sin, the concept of original sin and what's entailed by that, total depravity and total inability, these are all things that I think are very powerfully exhibited in Scripture.

So if you're going to affirm a particular view of human freedom, you need to understand that your theology and your philosophy is going to necessarily connect with other areas of your theological and philosophical system.

And so what you believe about the nature of man's will is going to impact what you believe about other areas that are very, very important.

Sometimes they touch on essential issues and there's an important distinction to make there between essential doctrine and nonessential doctrine and you don't want to hold to a theological or philosophical perspective that's going to impinge upon what is explicitly taught in Scripture.

So that's why I think it's a big deal and there's definitely a connection between libertarianism,

Molinist conceptions of sovereignty, and with what is traditionally understood as the five points of Calvinism and a

Calvinistic understanding of what it means for God to be meticulously sovereign. And we have

Natasha in Petaluma, California.

Natasha asks, Can you differentiate between determinism, the way a

Reformed Christian would correctly understand that term from Scripture, and fatalistic determinism?

Yeah, determinism is an umbrella term. So the main idea behind determinism is that everything that comes to pass is determined or necessitated by prior conditions.

These prior conditions can be natural if you're a naturalistic determinist, or it can be supernatural.

So when we talk within the context of Christianity, there is what we call theological determinism.

And basically it is the idea that God providentially determines everything that comes to pass, including human choices.

Now when you take a look at fatalism, fatalism is a form of determinism, but it is not guided by a personal rational agent.

In other words, you have impersonal forces determining the outcomes. There's no reason why, for example, events that occur in history, there's no reason why they happen, except that there are these impersonal prior things that necessitate their coming about.

So I think the key difference is that on the Christian worldview, and more specifically within the context of a

Calvinistic understanding of God's meticulous sovereignty, we believe that the things that God determines, they are determined, and it is

God's decree that makes them certain and gives them meaning and purpose within the broader scope of what

God is seeking to accomplish. As we say, God does not only ordain the ends, but he also ordains the means, and that means all of the events in between, on their way to the ends, have a meaning and a purpose.

That doesn't make sense on fatalism because fatalism is impersonal. There is no intention or telos, if you will.

If all of reality is being guided by impersonal forces that are bringing things about.

Yes, and Calvinists are constantly being slandered as being advocates of fatalism.

Right. I was in a debate myself, the one debate that I actually participated in as a debater, and that was because I didn't know

I was going to be debating somebody. I was invited on the Unbelievable show in the

UK, hosted by Justin Brierley. Really? Yes, he contacted me and said,

Chris, I'd love to have you on the program, Unbelievable. We're having a special Reformation Day show where we have a former

Roman Catholic who's converted to Protestantism and a former Protestant who's converted to Roman Catholicism.

And we have a former Anglican giving his story of becoming Catholic and we'd love to have you on the show.

So I said, that sounds great. And I didn't know until we were live on the air that this was a debate.

But the British barrister, who is the Catholic apologist, was really just regurgitating old, tired, worn out, easily refutable arguments.

And one of the things he said was, according to what Chris believes, there is nothing you can do to be saved.

Nothing you believe or say has anything to do with your salvation.

And obviously, we believe that faith is a requirement for salvation, but it is the gift of God.

It's not like a fatalistic understanding. In fact,

I can remember people calling in when I had a call -in show, calling in and saying that they were afraid of that on Judgment Day, even though that they have repented of their sins and they have lived as godly a life as humanly possible and have been a member in good standing of a church and love

Christ and have been following Him. They were afraid that on Judgment Day, God would basically ask for their lottery ticket.

They didn't use that terminology, but that's in essence what they were saying. Oh, I'm sorry, you're not of the elect.

Which, of course, we believe that if someone is of the elect, they will be regenerated and they will be sanctified and they will bear evidence of their justification by the virtue of repentance and good works and so on.

So this is not fatalism. As a Muslim, it's a very fatalistic understanding of entering into eternal bliss with Allah, and it's almost like the lottery system that I was telling you about.

And let's see here. That's a really good

British accent, by the way. I have a theatre background, and so I'm very familiar with that accent.

You speak very well the Queen's English. Well, if you want to look up the debate, just go to the

Unbelievable website. And actually, I played the debate on my own show and I believe

I had Tony Costa, our mutual friend, critique it. So if you looked up Unbelievable or Justin Briley in the search engine, you'll find it.

I think you'll find that I'm not too far off with this bloke. Did you talk like that the entire time?

Well, Justin, that's a great question. Yes, I didn't talk that way he did. But believe me,

I was tempted to imitate him. Check that out. But yes, so that's what going back to why

I even brought that up is we are constantly being accused of that.

Even though the term might not be used, we are accused of believing in an equal ultimacy.

Whereas God has to transform a sinner and make him a vessel of honor, people misunderstand us in also thinking that God actually has to make a morally neutral person a sinner as if they aren't already a sinner by nature.

There is no non -elect person that is going to say, hey, I want to be a

Christian, but for some reason I can't because God has not decreed that I would be. That's not the

Calvinist understanding. Right. Amen. In fact, I just saw an excellent meme recently of Charles Spurgeon saying that no one in hell will be able to say that I came to Christ and he rejected me.

Right. Let's see. We have Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania.

And Arnie says, can you point us to good debates, perhaps on video, regarding the divide between Molinists and Calvinists?

I can point you to two discussions. However, again, these get into very highly philosophically complicated concepts.

So they're definitely not an easy listen to. But there is a discussion between Kirk McGregor, who is a noted

Molinist and a Calvinist philosopher by the name of Guillaume Bignon. You can search that debate between them on the

Gospel Truth, which is a YouTube channel that focuses on theological debates and apologetics debates and things like that.

And Dr. White did a debate with Tim Stratton of Free Thinking Ministries.

And so that might be useful for folks. And Guillaume Bignon actually wrote,

I think, a 70 to 80 page critique of Tim Stratton's book.

And Tim Stratton is a Molinist. And so the critique can be found on Guillaume Bignon's blog.

If you just type in G. Let me see if I can spell this here because it would be useful if people can give this a read.

G -U -I -L -L -A -U -M -E, Guillaume Bignon, B -I -G -N -O -N.

You type that in and put the word blog next to it and then you can search. He has an 80 page critique and it's pretty understandable and not overly technical.

And you can kind of get the basic points of critique of the Molinist perspective, at least as it's presented by Tim Stratton, who's not all

Molinists are the same. There are different kinds of Molinism and things like that, but it would still be useful for those who are interested.

In terms of books, I'm unaware of a lot of books on this topic. There are books on Molinism and Calvinism, but I'm not aware of a book that addresses

Molinism specifically and offers a critique from a reform perspective. Or one that has two different apologists, each defending their own side, like occurred when

James White and the late David Hunt did a book together on Calvinism.

Yeah, well, unbelievable, Chris. James White interacted with William Lane Craig. In a book?

No, on Unbelievable. Oh, on the Unbelievable show. Yeah, that might be useful for folks.

I mean, it's difficult. It's really hard to get the top Molinists to debate. Calvinists, in my experience, are always willing to debate.

Not all Molinists are willing to debate. Some of them have, I suppose, valid reasons, depending on where you're coming from.

Some people don't like to debate other Christians on various topics, but I don't know why there's not more debates on this topic because, as we all know, theology is important.

There's a lot of confusion out there on this specific topic. I think it would be very useful to get some leading proponents of each view to discuss them, but for some reason, it doesn't happen as often.

Now, who would be an example of—I'm sorry if you said this before, I just don't remember—of a professing

Calvinist who also simultaneously claims to be a Molinist? Tim Stratton of Freethinking Ministries claims to be

Reformed. So I don't know if he holds to the five points. Maybe he does, or if he doesn't, he thinks one can hold to the five points and be a

Calvinist as well. So I'm sure he's got something written on it on his blog, Freethinking. One can believe in total depravity and be a

Molinist? Yes. Really?

Yes. Okay. Yes, but then they also—total depravity, they might argue, does not entail the total inability in the exact same way as the

Calvinists would. So, for example, in Kenneth Keighley's book, Salvation and Sovereignty, he actually tries to construct a version of Molinism that affirms

Monergism with respect to regeneration and so forth. I don't think it works.

He uses an analogy of a man on a stretcher. Suppose you wake up and you find yourself on a stretcher and the stretcher is on its way to the hospital.

Now, if you do nothing, you will make it to the hospital and be cured. And, of course, in this analogy, this is the process of regeneration, right?

If you do nothing and just move along with God's gracious work upon you, then you'll be saved, so hence

Monergism. Now, that made sense to me when I first read it, but I began to kind of wonder.

I was like, well, wait a minute. If I wake up on a stretcher, I'm still making the decision to either stay on or to get off.

So if I am not regenerated and I hate God, I hate the stretcher, and I hate the destination the stretcher is bringing me to, right, how do

I choose to stay on if I'm actively in hatred of the stretcher, the destination, and the very attempt to try to get me to the point of salvation?

And so there's what appears to be monergistic is not monergistic, right?

I still have to make a decision to stay on the stretcher, and hence I'm making that decision before I've experienced regeneration.

And so that becomes, I think, a problem because you get into the whole issues of what precedes what, right?

Does regeneration precede faith? Does faith precede regeneration? Those are the issues that I thought were very problematic, at least in that specific manifestation of Molinism that tried to preserve kind of a monergistic view of things.

Well, since you're using hospital allegories, when

Armenians, to set aside Molinism for a moment because I don't know how a

Molinist would respond. Because they are different, Chris. Armenians and a

Molinist, there would be key disagreements on certain issues. Right. Well, Armenians very often regurgitate their own definition of gift.

Somehow they cite this as if this is some kind of a provable definition found in the

Bible, which it is not. But they will regurgitate over and over again. You keep saying that faith is a gift, that salvation is a gift.

But a gift isn't a gift unless you accept it. And my answer to that very often is using a hospital allegory.

Okay, you are unconscious on an operating table. The doctor says, this man needs a blood transfusion.

Somebody in your family says, I have the same blood type. I will donate blood.

You are given blood. Somebody else has a vital organ that they are willing to donate for this unconscious person who needs the vital organ.

Aren't those things gifts? Even though the person is unconscious and is not actually consciously accepting those things?

Right. That's a good analogy, too, because someone receiving a gift on Christmas is not the proper analogy for the situation of a dead sinner.

It's not like, hey, oh, thank you for that gift. Here, I'll take it. No. In the Bible, the person is dead.

And, you know, we can use the example that they're actually at. And they're not just dead, like comatose.

They are actively in rebellion. So, yeah, unless the person's nature has changed, they're not going to want to accept the gift.

And that's the point. And the other thing that's absurd is claiming that we need to freely, consciously accept the gift of faith.

When does that ever happen? When has an angel or Christ himself ever said to anyone,

I have this gift of faith I want to give you. Do you want it? Nobody ever is in that scenario.

And on top of that, that would require faith to accept the gift of faith. Right. That makes no sense.

We have to go to our final break right now. If you want to ask a question, send it in immediately because we're rapidly running out of time.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Don't go away. We'll be right back.

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Now we are back with our guest today. And we have a question for Eli Ayala from Maxima in Belle Forche, or Forche, F -O -U -R -C -H -E,

South Dakota. And he said, how do you respond to people who say this kind of difference and this kind of theological inspection seems to be nothing more than counting the number of angels who could dance on the head of a pin?

Very often people will relegate complicated and deep theological matters into something that we don't need to know.

How do you respond to such folks? Well, I mean, I don't know what they mean.

When we're talking about the sovereignty of God and the nature of human freedom and how those interact with each other,

I mean, those are important issues. Deuteronomy 29 .29 says that the secret things belong to the

Lord, but the things revealed belong to us and our children's children. Sometimes we will discuss and dispute issues that perhaps have not been revealed, but there are aspects of it that is revealed that cause us to ask deep questions and so forth.

I think those discussions are important. And so someone says, well, you're debating this kind of Arminian and Calvinism and Molinist.

You guys are just splitting hair. Well, you can say that, but when we look deeper into the issues, we see that these issues touch on vitally important aspects of theology.

And so in some regards, various positions will veer off to the extreme and folks will move into areas like open theism where the omniscience of God is going to be denied or qualified to mean something other than what

Scripture says it means. So if we are concerned with the truth and to protect the revelation of God as he's revealed himself,

I think that we should engage in these discussions. Of course, we want to do it in probably a less aggressive way and disrespectful way that these conversations can typically go.

But I don't think that we should stop having these discussions just because some people might think, well,

I don't know if this question could ever be answered. That doesn't mean that the question can't be answered. It just might be due to our ignorance.

We need to explore a little more. And sometimes it's okay. Maybe we won't know the answers, you know, ultimately to some of these deep theological issues.

But the discussions and the study, I think, are vitally important to the life of the church as we need to be interacting with each other and formulating our theology as best we can from the text of Scripture as we understand it.

Yeah, and just because there are also people out there, and there are many, especially with the miracle of the

Internet, which is both a blessing and a curse, just because there are people out there who are nasty, foaming at the mouth, rabid people who act like idiots through their arrogance and nastiness and slander and so forth, just because those people do exist, and just because there are many of them that exist, doesn't mean that apologetics and healthy theological debate are not a very good and wise and helpful thing.

Just because some people screw it up doesn't mean that we should remove it from the public square for everybody.

Right. Imagine we did this with the Trinity. Can we really understand the Trinity, Chris? You know, why are we splitting hairs over this discussion?

You know, eternal subordinationism and divine simplicity. Imagine we kind of just toss that to the side.

Yeah, maybe we can explain metaphysically the entire scope of the Trinity, but that doesn't make the discussion unimportant, because the parts of the

Trinity that God has revealed has great import on important theological doctrine that we need to be protecting and defending.

So our inability to fully comprehend something does not negate the fact that we should be meaningfully discussing the portions of those beliefs that God has revealed and has spoken on.

So I think it's very important. Oh, believe me, I have had insults hurled at me. I was shocked to hear it from people that I never expected to hear it from when critiquing very seriously

T .D. Jakes, who denies the Trinity. Come on, the word's not even in the

Bible. Are we really going to break fellowship and split hairs over that? I mean, talk about utter shock.

But if you could now summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today in regard to this subject.

Well, if I could steal the phrase from Dr. White, James White, theology matters.

And I think that one thing that I hope people take away from this discussion is to realize that theology matters.

We shouldn't be at each other's neck in the way we engage these theological issues.

But I do think that we need to understand that what we believe about the nature of God, his sovereignty, human freedom, the impact of sin upon the mind and nature of man, these are doctrines worthy of defense and discussion and healthy debate.

Reminds me of 1 Peter 3, verse 15, where after the apostle Peter gets through talking about how we need to set apart

Christ as a Lord in our heart and always be ready to make a defense or give an answer, he also says to do so with gentleness and respect.

And so if we can do a better job in engaging with those with whom we disagree with gentleness and respect,

I think people would appreciate the theological differences and discussions and debates that we can have because they can be very fruitful when done in the correct spirit.

Unfortunately, we have party spirits, team spirits, and my side is better than your side, rah, rah, and of course that creates disaster in terms of speaking clearly to the other side.

And so I think Christians can do better, they should do better, and take these things seriously.

We're dealing with the word of God, but do so in a way that honors God. We can defend the faith, right, unbiblically.

Even if what we speak is the truth, if we communicate in a manner that dishonors God, then we're not actually being faithful to the word that we're trying to defend.

So I'd like to leave folks with that idea. Well, don't forget, folks, that if you want to find out more about Eli Ayala or invite him to speak at a special event that you want to arrange, go to RevealedApologetics .com,

RevealedApologetics .com. Chris, can I share something real quick?

Sure, definitely. Before I forget, I primarily focus on presuppositional apologetics. I actually offer a five -week course that walks through the presuppositional method, and I meet with the students who sign up once for five weeks, and we dive deeper into the video content that can be ordered on the website.

It's a great way to support the ministry if you appreciate what I'm doing, and it's a great way to learn apologetics in a more formal, structured way.

So I just wanted to throw that out there. And just to let you know, folks, to prove that Eli really knows what he's talking about in the realm of presuppositionalism,

Apologia Church invited him and paid for his expenses to fly out to Arizona to present a presuppositional—was it a seminar?

Yep, it was a five -part seminar. It's a 20 -minute each lecture. The course that I have on my website is much longer and goes into greater detail, but it was basically a shorter version of the course that I offer on my site.

And that's where Jeff Durbin and Dr. James R. White, two very well -known presuppositionalists, pastor.

But thanks again, Eli. You were a gem of a guest. I look forward to your frequent returns to the show.

I want everybody to always remember for the rest of your lives, Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.

Don't forget, tomorrow we have our guest, Dr. Tony Costa, speaking on No King But Christ.

So I look forward to hearing your questions for Dr. Costa tomorrow on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.