Profanation of Marriage

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona, this is The Dividing Line.

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us, yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence.

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Our host is Dr. James White, director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

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This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with Dr. White, call now at 602 -973 -4602, or toll free across the

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United States, it's 1 -877 -753 -3341. And now with today's topic, here is

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James White. And welcome to The Dividing Line, a jumbo edition of the program. Today we'll go for 90 minutes and we have a lot to cover, so I'm going to dive right in.

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I hope you've got a deep seat in the saddle and I hope that you're planning on having a chicken sandwich for lunch sometime over the next couple of days, especially tomorrow, though I will admit

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I'm not going tomorrow. I'm actually going today and Thursday to help spread it out and hope there's some chicken left come

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Thursday. What's that? No. No, you can't go with me.

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I've already invited somebody and so no. Now unless, and let's see, if Barry was here, we could send him up to get some today like we did last week, but he's not here.

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So we can't do a Chick -fil -A run today. He stubbed his toe last night and he had to stay home. Really?

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Yeah. Okay, well that's the Olympic spirit. Fabian Cancellara crashed in the

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Olympic road race right into a barrier and his shoulder is as close to being broken without being broken as possible, but he's riding the time trial tomorrow, but Barry stubbed his toe.

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All right. Well, just so we know what's going on there, like I said, the

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Olympic spirit. Anyway, I have a lot to get to today and on a wide variety of things.

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I have one, two, three, four, five, six tabs open in my browser to get to today and so that's a lot.

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The first is an open letter to James White on the Grace Under Pressure blog.

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Jay Demeanor is the name about there. I don't know anything other than what it says here.

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When I was a believer, I considered you one of my most important role models. Back then I wanted to pursue apologetics and spend my life defending the faith.

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Now as an unbeliever, I still have the highest level of respect for you as an intellectual and as a very articulate defender of your beliefs.

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While I appreciate the kind words, I would just want to point out that trying to become or wanting or desiring to become an apologist without a changed heart will result in exactly what you're experiencing.

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Either that or result in a person who will bring a tremendous amount of disrespect and opprobrium upon the

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Christian faith and probably end up in some sort of heresy. So one of the two, that is why apologetics should be done by those who have demonstrated over a period of time an ability to teach within the church and to serve within the church and then give a defense of the faith.

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I just thought I would mention that and I'm sorry to hear that, but I'm not surprised because if the matter is not in the heart, if the reason for defense of faith is not because I know my desperate need before a holy

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God, then eventually this is what is going to happen. Then it goes on to talk about the blatant hypocrisy on the side of supporters of the profanation of marriage.

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That's my terminology. I don't believe there is anything such as gay marriage. That is a redefinition of the term. I will not allow the term to be redefined.

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I challenge the redefinition of words and the changing of history. Anyways, and the hate speech and he condemns all, this person condemns all these things.

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I appreciate that. Then it goes down here. The problem I'm having, Dr. Wyatt, is your insistence that gay marriage is somehow an exception.

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Why is it that in this one case you insist that the government enforce the Christian perspective? Why will it not allow people the right to make these choices for themselves?

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You say you're a defender of traditional marriage. I'm a defender of the only marriage that actually makes any sense.

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Is it your opinion that heterosexual marriage is somehow made invalid by the addition of homosexual marriage? Yes. I suppose you consider the term homosexual marriage to be an oxymoron.

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I do. Let me begin right there. Every nation, every culture, if it is going to exist as a culture, has to have an ethical and moral foundation to it.

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Any kind of ethical, moral anarchy will destroy a culture.

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Look at history. Look at history. What's going on out there?

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Oh, oh, oh, great, wonderful, all right, wonderful. Look at history.

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Look at what happened to the Roman Empire. The Roman Empire did follow the, well, we are following, let's get the time frames right here, we are following the same path that they did.

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They began with a clear ethical, moral foundation. It decayed over time.

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I would argue that the lack of communication technology that existed back then slows decay and slows change.

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With our communication technology today, unfortunately, decay and change can happen very, very, very, very, very quickly.

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But we are following the same path. Been to the Coliseum recently? Not in real good shape.

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Visited the Roman Empire recently? No, it doesn't exist. History shows us that a people who cannot maintain an ethical, moral foundation are people who collapse.

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They cannot continue. They may continue for a time. There is such a thing as inertia,

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I guess we might say, to where a nation that has had great blessings from God in the past and has been blessed with a number of people in it who had that kind of foundation and established within the society that kind of foundation, there's going to be an inertia before what they did can be broken down and destroyed over time.

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But moral and ethical anarchy is not freedom. There can be no freedom in the midst of anarchy.

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And if you've read Adams, even Jefferson, even the least religious of the founders, let alone people like Witherspoon or anybody else, you will know that the constant refrain of the founders of this experiment with liberty was, this form of government cannot survive without a morally upright populace.

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It can't. When you give the freedom that is necessary for liberty to be experienced, you are also giving the ability and the freedom and the capacity to destroy that nation by those who abandon the moral principles upon which the nation was founded.

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And it is not arguable. It is not arguable that until the very recent past, what marriage was and is was not in dispute.

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Oh, sure. The Mormons ran off to Utah and said, we won't become a state unless you allow us to have polygamy.

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And then they changed that. But the United States said, we're not going there.

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Now we will be soon. I can guarantee you we will be going there soon. That's why in answer to the question, is it your opinion that heterosexual marriage is somehow made invalid by the definition of homosexual marriage?

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Yes. Look at Europe. Look at every nation where this has existed for as little as a decade.

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What has happened to marriage? It has been mortally wounded. It has been mortally wounded to where now marriage is nothing more than a contractual, normally very brief relationship between anybody, male, male, female, female.

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It doesn't matter. There is absolutely no reason to see marriage as anything other than just, well, same level of contractual obligation you enter into when you buy your car.

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Nothing more. That's it. I go to this bank. I'll go to that bank now. I go to this church.

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I go to that church now. Surface level, no longer for life, no longer a commitment, a covenant made before God, and hence no longer capable of providing the societal foundation that it once did, which is why totalitarianism is on the rise in those countries because the government has to take over where the family once functioned.

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And so, yes, it is my opinion, and I believe it is backed by fact, that heterosexual marriage, which is the only kind of marriage there is, is somehow, it's not made invalid, but it is destroyed in its cultural significance by the redefinition of it into something it is not and never can be and never will be.

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The way I see it, going back to the open letter, this is either a matter of specific benefits or it is a matter of vocabulary.

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What I mean is this, is your problem that you do not think homosexuals should receive the same legal benefits that married couples receive.

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Of course not. That seems like a very strange position to take from a Christian perspective.

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I'm not quite sure what would motivate you to take that position because marriage, the only reason that any government has to promote marriage is to get citizens.

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That's it. That's all, to get citizens to provide that stable family so that the government doesn't have to take care of these kids.

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I mean, you know, since we're just being interrupted by Barry calling up complaining, probably the pain meds he's on is probably impacting him because of that horrible injury he's experienced.

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He was telling me this while we were up in Colorado. He said, you got to watch this program about this pawn shop in Detroit because it gives you an insight into what happens when the family crumbles in a society.

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And I didn't know this. I don't normally watch this stuff. I don't watch much TV at all. There's some interesting stuff out there, but I just,

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I don't have time. My daughter was mocking me. We were driving in the car recently and we were talking about movies and I said, you know, the last movie

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I saw in a theater, I think that I can remember was

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Rocky Balboa. And I said, that was a couple of years ago. And she said, it was more than a couple of years ago. I said, no, no, no. It was like 2009.

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So she gets out her phone. Dad, that was 2006. I said, no. Yeah. I said, somebody hacked the database.

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I used to, you know, especially when you've got as much going on as I do, I don't have time, you know, to, uh, uh,

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I just feel guilty sitting in a, in a movie theater. So anyway, uh, at this, in this program, you have people coming into this pawn shop.

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And what I didn't know about is that in places like Detroit, it's like the first Tuesday of the month or something like that is called

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Mother's Day. You know why it's called Mother's Day? That's when all the mothers get their government checks and they all go shopping and you have to have, you have to have more people on staff.

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That's Mother's Day is when the baby mamas who don't, who only have a baby daddy, but they don't, they don't, there's, there's no daddy left.

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Who's, who's the daddy now? The government, the government, because the institution of marriage and human sexuality is so disrespected in our society.

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That entire, I mean, what's the number of, of, uh, what's the percentage now of children in the black community in United States?

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What was 70? Is it over 75, 76, 72 to 76, one of the two, I forget which one, 72 or 76 % of black children born today have, are illegitimate, outside of marriage, outside of marriage.

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Who's the daddy? The government, the government, so, oh yeah, and the same woman will have, have babies by two, three, four, five different men, the complete collapse of morality based upon a complete collapse of recognizing that we are creatures made in the image of God.

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It's all connected together. You get, you see how all this comes together. So you have marriage collapsing and the result is the government has to take over and once the government starts giving you the money, then the government controls you.

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You are no longer a free person. You're no longer a person with liberty. You're no longer a person with freedom.

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You are dependent upon someone else and they get to tell you what to eat, when to eat, how to dress, where to live, your freedom is gone.

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This is not the land of the free and the home of the brave any longer. To be the land of the free and the home of the brave requires morality and ethics that came from the

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Judeo -Christian worldview, which is now not only mocked, but if you dare express the fact that you happen to be in agreement with that, there are a bunch of people in high office in this land will say, we don't want you around here, you're a bigot, get out.

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So the only reason that the government should have anything to say about marriage is to promote it, marriage, what marriage really is, because it stabilizes the society.

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It stabilizes men, married men are much less likely to be involved in criminal activity and everything else than unmarried men, women have that effect on us thankfully, and to get new citizens.

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Look at what has happened in Europe with the declining birth rate. Those nations are collapsing.

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They're disappearing. You get down to 1 .5 children per woman and your populace will disappear.

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It will fade into the annals of history. Russia has figured this out.

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Australia has figured this out. They're doing everything they can to give money to people, have babies. We need more people, but it's too late for many of them already.

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That's the only reason the government needs to be involved in any of that. And so why in the world should government give benefits to people who give nothing back?

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Homosexuals cannot have children. It's just biologically impossible. Those that have them got them from those who aren't.

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So why should the state promote that behavior? Because all you've got now are people who are going to take resources and give nothing back.

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You're not going to give anything back. You're not going to have, and I commented on this a couple weeks ago.

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I watched that Canadian thing where they interviewed Tony Campolo and before,

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I should have kept it. I really should have kept that. I should have commented on it. I just had too much to do that day. I should have done it. But they interviewed these gay people beforehand, these homosexuals,

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I'm sorry. And the repeated refrain about what's so cool about being homosexual was you can have all the sex you want and not have kids.

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Have all the sex you want, not have any kids. Isn't that great? Isn't that wonderful? Absolute me, me, me, me, me, me, me.

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Everything's me. I even love me so much that I love someone who looks just like me.

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It is absolute personal hedonism. And it's just, it's, it's just, well, anyway, that's, that's another issue.

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So no, I do not believe the government, uh, if it's gonna be a moral government of any kind, uh, should be involved in any of that.

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Uh, da -da -da -da -da -da. Uh, that seems like a very strange position to take from a Christian perspective.

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I'm not quite sure what would motivate you to take that position. Just explain that. my hunch is that you, that is for you, a matter of vocabulary.

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You do not mind civil unions that are, for all practical purposes, marriages, just as long as they're not called marriages.

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Nope. Don't even. Nope. The government has absolutely no business taking my money to promote the immoral activity of other people.

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Let's just be honest here. That lifestyle spreads disease and death.

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It is a part of the culture of death. That's why it fits so perfectly hand -in -glove with the abortion industry. It's part of the culture of death.

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It is not a part of the culture of life. And our society has decided to embrace the culture of death, not the culture of life.

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I am going to stand here, and if my society hates me for it, I am going to continue to say, the cliff is right there.

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You've got one foot over it. That's what I'm called to do.

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And you know what? People don't like that. But the Lord does use him. If this is the case, which it isn't,

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I can totally understand your perspective. From a Christian point of view, they are not marriages. No, they're not. I have no problem granting you that, though there are plenty on my side who would call you a bigot even for that.

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I would disagree with them. Well, that's fine. I just wish they would be quite open with their worldview.

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And in fact, I would call them to consistency. All these people say, I'm for marriage freedom.

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Really? So should five -year -olds be able to marry? Well, I thought you said you were for marriage freedom.

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Should a nine -year -old grandmother be able to marry her 20 -year -old grandson? Why not if you're for marriage freedom?

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Should the lady from England be able to marry the Statue of Liberty? If that's what makes her feel good, why not if you're for freedom?

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How about a man and his horse? I mean, there used to be some really close relationships between cowboys and their horses.

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In fact, some of those cowboys, they loved their horses more than they loved anybody else. In fact, nobody else loved them either.

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So they were just loners out there. Why not be married to your horse? Leave everything to your horse when you die.

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Why not? Let's have marriage freedom. There's nothing to define marriage, is there?

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Oh, wait a minute. You're saying now that we need to have some basis for defining marriage? Well, where are you going to get that from?

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Oh, well, we'll get it from science. Really? Oh, yeah. Neo -Darwinianism?

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Okay, even Neo -Darwinianism will tell you that homosexuality is foolish.

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Because what's the whole point from the Neo -Darwinian perspective? The whole point is to get your genes to the next generation.

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Well, you can't do that if you're gay. If you're homosexual, it doesn't work. So if that's the case, then marriage should be that which produces, it should be polygamy.

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One guy, as many women as possible. That's the best way to get your genes into the widest possible part of the gene pool.

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So that would be polygamy. In fact, monogamy would be right out. You can't have that.

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What's the basis? Every society has to decide. Our society has decided we're not going to have a basis.

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Or what's worse is, the younger generation has decided, well, we're going to take the basis Hollywood's given us, and they don't even know what it is.

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They've not thought it through. They've been taught what to think, not how to think. That's the problem.

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I continue on. It would be sort of like a heretical cult that denies the Christ, calling themselves Christians. You would reject that, and rightfully so.

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But you would presumably not want legal action taken to force them not to use that name. I mean, you wouldn't, would you?

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Why is it that in this one case you support such action? There's no parallel here, because we're talking about the very function of society and the ability of a society to continue.

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Jehovah's Witnesses, whether they believe in the deity of Christ to teach you, this is Michael the Archangel, that's not impacting whether this society is going to be able to continue, whether we're going to be able to have an army, whether you'll be able to have borders, whether you'll be able to have government, whether you're going to be able to legally, for example, pass property down to the next generation, etc.,

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etc. There's no parallel between those two things, but marriage is a part of those things, and every single one of the founding fathers of this nation would have been shocked out of their powdered wigs that we are having any kind of discussion like this at all.

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And every one of them would have said, we told you, we told you, we told you, this constitution and this society cannot survive without the people in the society having an agreed -upon moral foundation.

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It was part and parcel of what everybody agreed to at the beginning. Maybe you feel those on my side won't be satisfied with simply being allowed access to marriage from a legal perspective, but would demand that all religious people affirm their marriage as legitimate.

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Oh, that's coming. You better believe that's coming. Uh -huh. Perhaps you feel this would be intolerant on their part.

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Uh -huh. I believe that it would be. Again, I would agree with you. They have no right to demand that you affirm their lifestyle.

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Not legally, but again, when you get into this type of thinking, this is a worldview conflict.

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And what I am saying is, the worldview that substantiates the redefinition of marriage is insufficient to sustain this society.

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And to redefine marriage from what it has been understood to be for thousands of years, that does not provide you the foundation upon which a culture can stand.

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Your worldview does not allow you to do that. But this is my whole point. Neither side has any right to demand anything.

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I have the right to demand that marriage be marriage. And the founders of this nation demanded that marriage be marriage.

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You see, you don't any longer have any basis to demand anything because you can't know anything.

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As an unbelieving atheist, I guess, you're stuck in the same position that David Silberman was stuck in our debate in New York.

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You can stand outside the gates of Dachau and Buchenwald, Treblinka, and you can look at that place and you can know what happened there.

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And the best you can do is say, well, I disagree. But you can't say it's wrong because you don't have any moral foundation left.

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You do not have any objective moral foundation because there is no objective truth. You either have to claim omniscience, which you can't, and you've cut yourself off from your creator who has revealed himself within you and the world around you.

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You've cut yourself off from all of that. So you have no basis anymore. And a society, if it is going to survive, has to recognize the necessity of a foundation that gives continuity to law and moral behavior.

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So I think I've dealt with enough of that. He goes on to say more.

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You can look it up. I'll try to link to it. But I've dealt with the argumentation rather clearly at that point.

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I go to an article by Todd Starnes on the foxnews .com website from, where is the buy line here?

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It doesn't give me a buy line. Why don't they give buy lines anymore? Is there a date down here at the bottom or something?

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Anyways, the head of Miami -Dade County Public Schools wants to evict a Southern Baptist church that rents space in one of their buildings because of the congregation's opposition to homosexuality.

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Excuse me, sir, did you not know this was a Christian church when they signed up in the first place? Superintendent Alberto Carvalho released a statement to a local television station alleging that Impact Miami's opposition to homosexuality, quote, appears to be contrary to school board policy as well as the basic principles of humanity, end quote.

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So let's get this straight now. This moral anarchy is becoming so prevalent that a lifestyle that cannot produce life, a lifestyle that right now, did you know that syphilis is on the rise in the

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United States? You know why it's on the rise in the United States? It's on the rise in one people group only, male homosexuals, the only ones.

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So that's its source, that's where it's at. Ever heard of gay bowel disease? I mean, we could really get disgusting here if we really wanted to start getting into the fact that when you abuse and misuse a human body, it has ways of fighting back.

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And we're not allowed to talk about things like that. Now you can, the government can force tobacco companies to put out commercials about black lung disease and all sorts of disgusting stuff like that that might take 10 years off your life.

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But if homosexuality takes 20 years off your life, well, you can't, no, no, no, better not, better not talk about that.

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Let's not talk about all those studies that demonstrate that a male heterosexual, a married heterosexual male will live far longer than a male homosexual.

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No, we don't want, no, no, no, no, no. Let's not go there. Can't talk about that.

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And so they want to kick a Southern Baptist church out of renting a facility and, you know, goes on to say that, you know, we hope the lawyers will get involved and explain to these people what the

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Constitution is, but that we have discovered is unknown to a large portion of those in elected public office.

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I thought the thing in Boston was bad enough, Mayor Menino. And then, you know, I mean,

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Rahm Emanuel, okay, at Chicago. Yeah, we don't want Chicago values, you know, because then when we vote for new elders, we'd have to dig up about 47 people out of the graveyard to vote in the eldership thing.

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And then we had more people, then we had the guy in Philadelphia, Kenny, I believe was the name.

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But now here's from July 28th, DC Mayor Vincent C.

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Gray. He decided not even the guy in Philadelphia had gone far enough. DC Mayor Vincent C.

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Gray said Friday he would not support an expansion of Chick -fil -A in the district, referring to it as hate chicken.

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Gray issued a statement on Twitter. How many people have gotten into so much, how many athletes have gotten into trouble in London because of Twitter?

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Did you know that during the road race, and this is one of the few things I'm interested in, in the Olympics, they couldn't, they could not tell everyone who was following on TV where the people were, how far the groups were apart, because they chose to transmit the data over a wireless network, and because of everybody tweeting along the route, the wireless network crashed.

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So Twitter kept us from knowing what the breaks were, and even kept the riders from knowing either, and may have impacted who ended up winning the gold medal because of Twitter.

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There you go. Twitter. Gray issued a statement on Twitter after mayors in Boston, Chicago, and San Francisco, oh,

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San Francisco, really? Honestly? I'm shocked, also stated that the company was not welcome due to President Dan Cathy's outspoken opposition to same -sex marriage.

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He never even used the phrase. He simply affirmed

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Christian values. You are not allowed to do that in our society anymore.

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How dare you take the position that every president before the current one had taken? How dare you take the position of the founders?

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Folks, a revolution has taken place. A revolution has taken place right under our noses, and we were too busy on Twitter to know, evidently.

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Given my long -standing strong support for LGBT rights and marriage equality, I would not support hate chicken,

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Gray wrote. Really? So you're for marriage equality? So the mayor of DC, and there's a place that is just the example of a city on a hill, isn't it?

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I mean, you can walk down any street in DC without ever worrying about anything, right?

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These people rule over cities where crime is rampant, but they got plenty of time to worry about hate chicken.

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There you go. Good job, guys. Good job.

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Great to have the right priorities. I guess the mayor of DC is for marriage equality, which means he must be for polygamy, polyamory, incestuous marriage, bestiality, the whole nine yards, because that's marriage equality, isn't it?

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Could someone tell me how that's not? How is that not? Because every time

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I've mentioned pedophilia, they're like, oh, well, the kids have to have choice in that.

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Okay, let's leave that to the side. We can argue about that. It's sort of funny that the main people in our society, they're always pushing for lowering the age of consent happen to be who?

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Does the name Harvey Milk mean anything to you? Yeah, the guy that they are forced to celebrate in the

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People's Republic of California? Yeah, that guy. Think about that for a while. Anyway, leave that one out.

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Marriage equality. You should be able to marry your dog. That's marriage equality, isn't it?

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Well, I would like to keep with them. You speciesist. You're a bigot. Oh, just a bigot.

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You must hate DC. I'll put a hashtag on it. Hate DC.

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Yeah, right. Funny thing is, in 2010, when he was council chairman,

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Gray helped legalize same -sex marriage. Last month, as mayor, Gray signed into law what he called one of the nation's toughest anti -bullying laws.

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I guess telling Chick -fil -A that you can't have Christian values, that's not bullying.

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Folks, you know what the sad thing is here? I'm going to say this, and only a portion of the audience is going to have any idea what

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I'm talking about. But the brown shirts are here. The brown shirts are here.

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And you know why only a small portion of my audience has any idea what I'm saying? It's because we don't know history anymore.

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We don't study history anymore. The Nazi brown shirts, they were around for a long time before the world had any real idea of how bad

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Hitler and the Nazis were. And on the outside, they were very moral.

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But they actually were used to, they were thugs. They're just thugs. And we have thugs everywhere now.

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Everywhere. They're all around us. We still have, thankfully, we still thankfully have the freedom to speak out.

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But it will not be long before that becomes very costly.

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That's why I am very nervous about moves in the UN, for example, to control the internet.

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Moves on the part of the Organization of Islamic States to press through the

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UN laws saying that we should respect all religions. Well, we know what they mean by that, don't we?

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Because we know how Christians are treated in those nations. So what they mean is, don't you dare say anything about Islam.

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Don't you dare. You know, when people attack

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Christianity, I want them to have the freedom to do so, so I can demonstrate the stupidity of their arguments.

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And when you have to silence those who would criticize you, instead of engaging them and defeating them in the intellectual arena, what does that tell you about your religion or your worldview or whatever?

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And yet, what do we have today? Islamic nations, silence the Christian. And in the secular nations, silence the

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Christian. It's the same thing. Whether it's secular fascism or Islamofascism, it doesn't matter.

35:48

Silence the opposition. Deny them the right to speak because they know.

35:58

Can you imagine, and this is going to sound like I'm really patting myself on the back, but I have a lot of experience in debate.

36:06

Can you imagine if I got into a debate with any one of those mayors? Any one of them?

36:13

I mean, it would just, from a worldview perspective, it would be ugly.

36:21

I'm sure one of them would have you arrested for whatever reason he could come up with. Oh yeah, I'm sure. Disturbing the peace, my peace, is all that happened.

36:32

Well, anyway, I've gotten through three of my six, but it's going to take longer to get through the rest of them.

36:41

And I've been talking very fast. Yes, sir. Now, I need to preface a spot that I'm about to run.

36:48

Oh, you found it, huh? I found it. It took you forever. The quality isn't that great, but given the last few weeks of some of the churnings -

36:56

Well, and what I'm going to be going on next. Yeah. I dug up our old commercial. In fact, at the end, it says, get the tapes.

37:03

It's now on CD, and it's also available on MP3. And I have, if you folks follow on our page for The Dividing Line, it will actually have a link to this item, and you can go over there and get it if you want.

37:21

But this is a classic Wayback commercial, and it's called

37:26

The Conference on Rome. So we're going to go ahead and start that now. Biblical Christianity.

37:49

Featuring the leading Protestant apologists on Rome and America today. Listen to Dr. Eric Svensson's presentation,

37:55

Rome has spoken. The matter is debatable. When the Roman Catholic apologists insist that the principle of sola scriptura has resulted in over 25 ,000 denominations, we should in turn insist that the principle of scripture plus an infallible interpreter has resulted in an even greater number of religious cults.

38:12

Pastor Rob Zins addresses the evangelical romance with Rome. There was not a Roman Catholic church in the first five centuries.

38:19

There was, just to be sure, a Catholic church. But this is the universal designation of the body of Christ.

38:26

It is not Romanism. Pastor David King, the impact of Romans 117 on Martin Luther.

38:32

How is one himself to have that righteousness which God requires, ye demands, and which is utterly indispensable to salvation?

38:44

It is by faith, and by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, and we lay hold of the

38:51

Lord Jesus by faith alone. And Dr. James White examines the veneration and images.

38:58

Do you think if such a person were brought before Moses, having just been caught bowing down before a statue and lighting candles and rocking back and forth in prayer, do you think

39:09

Moses would have accepted the excuse, I wasn't giving Latria, Moses, I was only giving

39:14

Julia? Other topics addressed in this tape series. Is there something about Mary? Scripture's sufficiency, the Roman versus Protestant view, canonizing the

39:21

Apocrypha, an assault on scripture, Rome's sacraments, an assault on Christ's gospel, and purgatory, an assault on Christ's perfect atonement.

39:29

Look for this tape series and many others at AOMIN .org, that's A -O -M -I -N dot O -R -G,

39:35

The Conference on Rome. So someone on Twitter quotes me,

40:45

I have a right to demand that marriage is marriage. Really? Demand? Well, yeah. I think that our language has to correspond with reality.

40:56

And reality is defined by how God has made us. And the reason there's now a disconnect between language and reality is because we don't believe

41:05

God's made us. And there's the problem. Anyway, shifting gears, and it's going to be a little bit difficult to do so, because I'm fairly revved up, and it might not be good to be fairly revved up here, but somebody,

41:23

I think yesterday, commented on Facebook, and I commented back. I am being dragged kicking and screaming into commenting on things in that realm.

41:36

In fact, I wrote a fairly lengthy comment right before the program today in response to a

41:43

Romanist who was repeating the same absurd arguments we're going to be looking at here in a moment against Sola Scriptura.

41:51

But a fellow commented in regards to the

41:57

Jason Stelman situation that I must be really stung because I had met with Jason, and evidently

42:08

I failed because he became Roman Catholic. And I would hope that even

42:14

Jason would chuckle at that, because in my conversation with Jason, I was very straightforward.

42:22

I told him if he became Roman Catholic, he was going to be committing apostasy, and he was going to be denying the gospel, and he was going to have to be believing things that are just pure myths.

42:32

But I was very passionate in what I said, but I gave him absolutely positively no reason to believe, and anyone who knows me would have no reason to believe, that I would think that the existence of truth is in any way, shape, or form impacted by those who decide to walk away from it.

42:51

I mean, I think the truth about what marriage is is obvious to anybody who is not blinded by God's judgment upon their mind.

43:02

I mean, it's a self -evident truth. I mean, you know, we hold these truths to be self -evident.

43:08

Well, there is a way in which there are self -evident truths. And so when

43:15

I see the converts to Romanism, and you'll notice when people leave

43:22

Rome, they generally don't put up blog articles and get applauded by all sorts of people.

43:28

They generally start going to a church and start serving and learning the gospel, and they see it as a conversion to Jesus Christ.

43:35

And so many of them have said to me over the years, I had never heard the gospel. What I had been taught was doing this, doing that, the confessions, the penances, and so forth.

43:45

When people leave Rome, they are converted to Christ. When people leave meaningful

43:53

Protestant churches and swim the Tiber, they're converted to a system.

43:59

And you read their conversion stories, and Jason Stelman's was like this, even though it's disappeared.

44:05

Could someone tell me in channel, is it back? Because I responded to a couple things he said, and then it disappeared.

44:12

I linked to it. I thought I did anyway. But then someone told me that it went bye -bye. So I don't know if it's back yet.

44:19

Anyway, you read these conversion stories, and it's all about conversion to Rome, the church.

44:29

It's not back. That's interesting. They very rarely will give you specifics about what the church is.

44:39

Oh, it's the church centered in the person of the Vicar of Christ in Rome. Yeah.

44:45

But I know enough about that church to know that that is a multi -faceted, widely ranging group of people with very different beliefs.

45:01

So the lack of specificity, they'll be very specific about the divisions that they saw in Protestantism, but they just walk in with this wide -eyed wonder.

45:11

And it's naive. It is naive on a level that is hard to even begin to understand, especially when they start talking about unity, things like that.

45:22

It's just amazing. Well, as most of you know, just a couple days ago, July 29th, so two days ago, on furthering

45:35

Christendom, on Tyler McNabb's blog, he posted an article wherein he—and of course, the very first person to congratulate him was, of course,

45:50

Devin Rose, the same guy I was just talking about—but wherein he says, I have decided to watch the

45:55

U .S. swim team in action. That is, in order to gain pointers as I begin my journey of swimming the

46:01

Tiber. I don't know. I have a little bit of a difficulty when someone can speak of something like this.

46:10

An abandonment of everything that they have said is true, an abandonment of the relationships that they had built, the trust that people had expressed in them, in their maturity, in their grounding.

46:27

To start off a post whereby you announce this in this fashion seemed to me to be quite trite and immature, to be honest with you.

46:41

And he goes on talking about—and they all start talking about themselves, basically.

46:49

But I don't know how old Tyler is. He's a fairly young fellow.

46:57

And according to an article posted at the Informed Evangelist by John Speed, which

47:07

I'll try to link to both of these, you have here a good example of someone who was entrusted with levels of leadership far too early.

47:22

And Tyler was a street preacher. That's where I met him, was at the Jeremiah Cry Convention in New York back in 2010.

47:31

And snappy dresser, that's the main thing you remember about him. But there is a lot to be learned from here.

47:42

One thing to be learned from this is you can profess all you want, that you honor the local church.

47:54

But if you haven't been there long enough to prove it, it's just that. It's a profession.

47:59

It's words. It's words. And I am concerned about the young, reformed, and restless, because the restless part shouldn't be there.

48:14

If you're young and reformed—let me just give you an example. I'll use my own self as an example. When I first attended the

48:25

Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church, I was just about to graduate from seminary.

48:31

I had written at that point at least two books, maybe three. I was a good student.

48:42

Despite all of that, the man who is now my fellow elder dangled no carrots in front of my eyes, did not promise me that I would be doing anything in the church, did not pursue me in any way, shape, or form.

48:57

Would you like to be a member of the church? You could do this, you could—no. We don't do that. We don't do that.

49:06

Instead, when I went to him and expressed the desire of my wife and I to become a part of the church, again, no carrots were dangled.

49:17

There was no, whoo -hoo, yay! It was, here's the confession, here's the Constitution, read it, we'll meet with you.

49:25

When I went through all that process and we joined that church, as far as I knew, I was going to sit,

49:31

I was going to learn, and I was going to listen, and I was going to serve. Not in some upfront position, not being an elder, not being—no, never, ever mentioned.

49:43

I was a part of that church for, if I'm remembering right, once you start getting my age, the years, but I think

49:52

I was there for over seven years. Before I ever said anything about eldership, it might have been nine years, because I can't remember whether it was 96 or 98, but anyway.

50:10

And I served, I taught, I worked in the nursery,

50:16

I taught little kids on Wednesday nights. There's something, the older you get, the more you realize that consistency over time is something to be valued.

50:35

Something to be valued. And John Speed said in his article that he believes that elders, there's something about maybe age in the concept of an elder, and he's right.

50:47

He's right. That's exactly what my fellow elder said to me at that time. It's somebody who has some experience.

50:55

It's someone who has demonstrated consistency over time. And that's the one thing

51:00

Tyler McNabb has not done, has shown consistency over time. Some of you noticed that on the blog yesterday, or the day before yesterday,

51:11

I forget which one it was, I made reference to the repetition of a lie.

51:26

And I note now that there has been an editing of the article.

51:34

I just brought it up. I gave, in fact,

51:41

I'm going to go ahead and double check this, but I gave the exact quotation on my blog article, and now it seems that that has now been changed.

51:51

But let me go down here. There it is.

51:59

The principle of Sola Scriptura is not only self -defeating, but the consequence of this doctrine is the creation of over 36 ,000 denominations.

52:07

That was the original statement. That was the original statement. I don't see the 36 ,000 anymore.

52:14

Instead, what I see is the principle of Sola Scriptura is not only self -defeating, but the consequence of this doctrine has had a large impact in the creation of over thousands and thousands of denominations.

52:29

Yeah, that doesn't even make sense, does it? That hasn't even been edited well. Come on, Tyler. At least if you're going to cover up the lie without retracting it, at least edit well.

52:43

Oh, that's sad. That is so sad. That is just so sad.

52:50

So now it says, the principle of Sola Scriptura is not only self -defeating, but the consequence of this doctrine has had a large impact in the creation of over thousands and thousands of denominations.

52:59

That doesn't even make sense in English. It originally said, it originally gave the number 36 ,000.

53:07

We all know where that came from. We all know where that came from.

53:14

We have documented this over and over again. I put links to the articles that we've put up.

53:19

I put links. I put a link to a video that I put up where I'm wearing one of my

53:25

Alpha and Omega hats. It looks sort of silly, and the audio doesn't sync with the video very well. But anyway, a section where I'm sitting in this very chair behind this very microphone, and I went through once again, and we played

53:41

Tim Staples doing the 33 ,000 denomination thing. And we've quoted

53:47

Steve Ray doing the 33 ,000 denomination thing. It is something that Catholic Answers is guilty of.

53:53

It's something that Patrick Madrid is guilty of. It is just, it is an endemic disease amongst

54:01

Roman Catholic apologists to make this argument and to talk about the 33 ,000, or Tyler McNabb now, the 36 ,000 denominations.

54:11

Yes, sir. One of the reasons I wanted to bring out that commercial was, you'll notice in Eric Svensson's clip, he talks about the number 25 ,000.

54:19

Now, I believe we did that around 2000, 2001, was when that conference was. So like most fish stories, it keeps growing, and Pinocchio is somewhere to be found here.

54:31

Well, the worst thing about this, the worst thing about this was, is there were comments attached to this article from Roman Catholics saying,

54:39

Oh, 36, whatever. I think there's literally millions of Protestant denominations, because every

54:45

Protestant is his own Pope. This, this is the attitude toward truthfulness amongst

54:54

Roman Catholics. Really is. Hey, as long as it promotes

54:59

Mama Church, Mama Rome, it's okay.

55:05

They would never allow us to get away with this. Never. I pointed out in one of my articles, in fact, this was the article from August 27th of 2007.

55:22

I provide a scan of the World Christian Encyclopedia, and I go through all this stuff, and I talk about the various people that they include.

55:33

And remember, Tyler McNabb is doing the exact same thing that Steve Ray did, and he's laying at the foot of Sola Scriptura all these different denominations.

55:44

What are some of these different denominations? The British Israelites. The Afro -Caribbean

55:52

Zionist movement. The gay, lesbian, homosexual tradition.

55:57

Well, that number is increasing. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's due to Sola Scriptura. The white -led

56:03

Word of Faith prosperity movement. 17 denominations there. The Latin right Catholic.

56:09

Yeah, they're Protestants, but they're listed as non -Roman Catholics. And hence, due to Sola Scriptura.

56:17

The independent Jehovah's Witnesses. There you go. Eight denominations of those.

56:22

How about the No Church movement? That's included. That's Sola Scriptura right there.

56:29

The No Church movement. The old Catholic movement. 26 denominations laid at the feet of Sola Scriptura.

56:37

The isolated radio churches. Yeah, that's due to Sola Scriptura.

56:44

You got the Mormons and the Jehovah's Witnesses, and it's all due to Sola Scriptura. Tyler, if you will defend that, then you have no connection or discernment of truth at all.

56:58

No one does. No one can possibly defend this kind of absurdity.

57:05

The only honest response of a person who has even a scintilla of integrity in their hearts is to say, sorry,

57:14

I listened to Tim Staples. I listened to Steve Ray. I bought it.

57:22

I'm sorry. I retract it. It was an absurd argument to make, but it's not going to happen.

57:28

Because as we've seen here, we edit it so that it doesn't even make sense in English anymore.

57:36

We've taken out the number, but the argument is still the same. It's all due to Sola Scriptura. Well, that's a lie too.

57:43

It's a lie. Let's do some thinking here. Let's think this through.

57:53

What we're being told is that if you believe that Scripture is the sole infallible rule of faith for the church, that this is going to result in massive confusion leading to thousands and thousands or even millions of denominations.

58:17

But what's the unstated presupposition? Now, Tyler, you read a lot of Bonson.

58:25

And in fact, according to the information I've been given, you know, first it's Bonson and then he's a big William Lane Craig fan.

58:31

So there's been a lot of going from pillar to post and swinging wildly from one position to another position and stuff like that.

58:39

So who knows what the future may hold here as well. Anyway, but you pride yourself on your philosophical knowledge.

58:48

Well, what is the unstated presupposition of your argument? The unstated presupposition of your argument is that by doing what you're doing, you are going to be able to avoid the disunity that results from Sola Scriptura.

59:00

Right. So is that what you've got now,

59:07

Tyler? Have you ever ever listened to Jerry Matitox, Tyler?

59:14

He's a little bit before your time. You were in diapers when

59:20

I first went after Jerry Matitox, probably. But Jerry Matitox, what an interesting fella.

59:34

For some reason, despite his great knowledge, the existence of the teaching magisterium didn't provide the unity that Jerry Matitox needed.

59:44

And so why is it that men that I have debated, who at the time were defending

59:51

Roman Catholicism, now want to debate each other? Jerry Matitox would love to debate Roberts and Genes. Do you follow

59:58

Roberts and Genes, Tyler? In fact, tell me. Roberts and Genes makes a lot of arguments about the fact that the modern

01:00:07

Roman Catholic Church and the prelates and the theologians today have a very odd view of Israel in comparison to what

01:00:15

Rome has taught in the past about Israel. So who's right, Tyler? Can you give the

01:00:22

Pope a ring and ask him? See, the problem is once the Pope says something, then, well, what the

01:00:29

Pope says has to be interpreted. And every time the Pope comes out with a statement, with an apostolic letter, there are some people that consider this to be the very speaking of the

01:00:45

Vicar of Christ. But then others would say, but it's not infallible.

01:00:55

How can you know, Tyler, what is infallible and what isn't infallible from what the

01:01:00

Pope says? Let's say he answered, let's say you wrote a letter and he actually answered you and told you exactly what his views were concerning the people of Israel and the

01:01:12

Old Covenant and New Covenant and things like that. How could you know that what he said to you is infallible?

01:01:19

Because see, Honorius, if you know your church history, Honorius answered a letter as the

01:01:26

Bishop of Rome and promoted monothelitism as a result. And for hundreds of years, every person who became a

01:01:34

Pope had to anathematize Honorius as a heretic, as part of the papal covenant that they were making.

01:01:46

So at the time that Honorius wrote, though, if you had read his letter, how could you have known that it wasn't infallible?

01:02:00

What's the mechanism, Tyler? You seem to know because you're saying that, oh, there's just, there's so much schism and division over there.

01:02:09

And it's all due to sola scriptura. Y 'all, it's all due to sola scriptura.

01:02:18

Well, then what's the source of the division amongst the folks over there on the other side of the tiber,

01:02:24

Tyler? It can't be sola scriptura because they deny that. So evidently, scripture plus tradition means unity, right?

01:02:34

So you can go to Boston College, you can go to Notre Dame, and you're going to find perfect unity in what's taught, right?

01:02:42

I mean, the Pope knows what's being taught at those places. We're not talking about some podunk place. He's got people reporting back to him.

01:02:49

He knows what's being taught. So there's going to be a perfect unity. And you might think that there is.

01:02:56

I would invite you to go to those places. And you'll find people who believe almost everything.

01:03:05

And they're right there in Roman Catholic institutions teaching that stuff. And so you're going to find all, you know, you said most

01:03:14

Protestant churches are by far pro -choice and pro -homosexual. Really? You've already gotten sucked into that level of thinking.

01:03:26

So you want to say that John Shelby Spong is bound by sola scriptura?

01:03:38

Is that what you're going to tell me? That the Episcopalian Church practices sola scriptura?

01:03:43

Really? Honestly? If you think that, then you are so deceived that there's almost no reason for me to address you.

01:03:51

Because we all know that's a lie. Those churches don't practice sola scriptura.

01:03:57

They abandon any belief that the Bible is the word of God a long time ago. So you could tell me that the churches that believe...

01:04:07

How about the Reformed folks who contributed to your missions trip recently, Tyler, who gave money to send you over to Scotland?

01:04:16

In those Reformed churches. You think those folks are by far pro -choice and pro -homosexual?

01:04:23

Really? I know that's not true, and you do, too.

01:04:32

Yeah, I know that's not true, and you know it, too. Somewhere in your heart of hearts, you do know that to be true.

01:04:40

But I know pro -choice Catholics, and I know that there are a whole lot of homosexuals in Roman Catholic seminaries.

01:04:57

Right? That's not even a questionable thing there, either. So where's the unity?

01:05:04

I thought the presupposition of your argument is that by doing what you're doing, you're not going to have this disunity anymore.

01:05:11

But I see all sorts of disunity over there. Pro -choice, huh?

01:05:17

Tyler, did you happen to notice that 54 % of American Roman Catholics vote for Barack Hussein Obama in the last election?

01:05:25

You notice that? 54 %? You know, the guy that was well -known at the time, promoted partial birth abortion?

01:05:32

I thought there was unity. Tyler, you well know, you well know that amongst people who actually know what sola scriptura is and practice sola scriptura, that our unity on matters of faith, doctrine, practice, and morals will be far greater than those who do not practice sola scriptura.

01:06:11

You know that. When I stand shoulder to shoulder with my

01:06:19

Orthodox Presbyterian Church brethren, we have disagreements.

01:06:26

But we both practice sola scriptura. And as a result, we can debate any non -Trinitarian together.

01:06:36

We can debate Roman Catholics together. We agree on the gospel.

01:06:41

We agree on the resurrection, on the nature of Christ. But you've got all sorts of folks in the

01:06:49

Roman communion who are rank liberals that you wouldn't have anywhere near the level of unity with.

01:06:58

That I would have with my OPC brethren. So, isn't that a rather obvious defeater for your entire argument?

01:07:09

It obviously is. And so, when you say, I still say to this very day that the greatest argument against Protestants...

01:07:18

What do you mean, I still say? This is your announcement. This is something you've been saying for a long time?

01:07:26

Were you saying this when you took money to go on that missions trip just recently? I just wonder about that.

01:07:32

So, I still say to this very day that the greatest argument against Protestantism is Protestantism. Well, I would say the greatest argument against Roman Catholicism is

01:07:39

Romanism. Most Protestant churches are by far pro -choice and pro -homosexual. That's a lie. Protestantism is born in schism and should be against schisms.

01:07:47

Well, have you ever heard of the pornography, Tyler? Have you ever heard of the

01:07:55

Avignon papacy, Tyler? Have you ever heard of the Council of Pisa? I'd suggest you do just a little study of church history.

01:08:04

You might find out that you need to be careful with the arguments you swing our direction because they're double -edged swords.

01:08:14

And when you look down and see your arm lying on the ground, you wonder where it happened. How did that happen? Well, it's because you're using an argument that cuts both ways.

01:08:27

Schisms are all she knows and it will be all she ever knows. The principle of soul scripture is not only self -defeating, but the consequence of this doctrine has had a large impact in the creation of over thousands and thousands of denominations.

01:08:37

Originally, it was the lie of 36 ,000 denominations. I don't see anything here that says, Oh, I fixed that. I'm sorry.

01:08:42

I didn't mean to put it there or whatever. I will stop here for now, but perhaps I will blog later about why

01:08:48

I believe the Protestant Reformation is also significantly responsible for the Enlightenment and secularism as we know it. Well, let's just throw the kitchen sink out there, why don't we, in the process.

01:08:59

Then he throws up, look at all these people

01:09:04

I've read. That's really great. After becoming more open to Catholics in general, I began to have a more aesthetic attraction to the church.

01:09:12

I found the church beautiful and its thinkers both godly and brilliant. However, I still would not become

01:09:17

Catholic as I thought they believed that one entered a state of grace by their works. And they believed Jesus needed to be re -sacrificed on the cross over and over again.

01:09:26

Really? Well, I guess he never read my books on the subject, never listened to any of my debates because I know differently.

01:09:36

I know how a person enters into the state of grace. I also know how they exit the state of grace. And I don't know how many times

01:09:44

I've explained over and over again the concept of the re -presentation of the one who sacrificed the mask in the very first debate

01:09:53

I did against Gerry Madetik. I was clear on that. So what are you admitting,

01:09:58

Tyler? I didn't know anything about Romanism. I was one of those folks. I was

01:10:03

Reformed. I didn't know why. And you know what? There's a lot of people like that.

01:10:09

And I've mentioned this over and over again. There's a lot of people who are anti -Catholic out of ignorance.

01:10:18

And if you are ignorant of why you do not bow the knee to the

01:10:23

Bishop of Rome, you are a prime candidate to become a

01:10:29

Roman Catholic. You are. If you don't know why,

01:10:34

I mean, there's lots of reasons why. I mean, here you have a young man. Look at all those divisions over there.

01:10:42

I'm going to embrace a system that now makes me believe de fide, a dogma, that nobody in the

01:10:49

Bible, nobody in the early church, nobody for hundreds of years ever even taught about, mentioned, or lived their lives by.

01:10:58

Now I got to believe it. But boy, I've got my certainty. Yeah, it's called the bodily assumption of Mary.

01:11:06

Start praying to Mary yet, Tyler? Start doing the rosary? Repeating those things over and over again?

01:11:16

Start doing that yet? You stand with Jerry Madetix? Back even when he was

01:11:23

Catholic answers, you'd go around. You say Jesus is your

01:11:30

Savior? Well, is Mary your mother? Is Mary your mother now, Tyler? You agree with the argument that the basis for the certainty that we have of the bodily assumption of Mary is the identical basis of certainty we have for the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

01:11:49

You ready to put the resurrection on the same level as the bodily assumption of Mary, Tyler? Are you?

01:11:55

You don't have any choice. You're going to have to do it. Go all the way, man. That's what I told

01:12:00

Jason Stellman. I said, you're going to become a Romanist. Go all the way, man. Start praying the prayers to Mary and lighting the candles and bowing down.

01:12:09

Might as well go visit a few shrines and see some bones and some skulls and get some indulgences.

01:12:16

Go the whole way. Don't be a half -hearted papist. I don't like Protestant liberals and I don't like Catholic liberals either.

01:12:29

I just don't like liberals as a whole. Squishy people just bother me.

01:12:39

I mean, you do realize, Tyler, that the Pope has taught for over 100 years that fifth

01:12:44

Marian dogma. It's not a dogma yet, but the Pope's taught it. And so, you explain to us,

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Tyler. And by the way, you want to call in? Well, that's the one call we'll take. 877 -753 -3341.

01:12:56

Tyler McDan wants to call in. We'll talk about this. We'll talk about this. I'd like to know, Tyler. Is Mary your co -redemptrix?

01:13:04

Your co -mediatrix? Do you know what those things mean? The Popes have taught it as doctrine, just not as dogma yet.

01:13:11

But millions of Catholics have turned in petitions asking him to define it. You believe that? How do you know whether that's infallible or not infallible?

01:13:21

It might end up being infallible someday. It might not. Who knows? Who knows?

01:13:30

Have you read Liguori yet, Tyler? The Glorious of Mary? I'll tell you what, if you want to contact me,

01:13:39

I'll buy you a copy of it. I will. I'll do it personally. Ministry won't do it.

01:13:45

I'll do it out of my own pocket. I'll buy you a copy of Alphonsus Day Liguori's The Glorious of Mary.

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You read it. You read every page of it. And if you can sit there and go, oh, that's beautiful.

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Then that's where you belong. That's where you belong. Because no child of God could ever read that blasphemy without being sickened in their soul.

01:14:13

Sickened in their soul. Couldn't do it. It's not possible. You say, oh, that's harsh.

01:14:24

Back to Tyler, you said I was rude. I was rude to write to you and point out the lie. But that's rude.

01:14:30

I think it's pretty rude to have said you're one thing. And then you prove to be something else.

01:14:37

And you hurt all the people with Jeremiah Cry. You hurt all the people you've been associated with. And on what basis?

01:14:45

This? This kind of stuff? Really? 36 ,000 nomination lies?

01:14:51

That kind of stuff? Honestly? Come on. Let me grab something here.

01:15:02

Actually, you know what? I need to bring my Mary book in here. It's probably in here somewhere, just someplace else.

01:15:08

But some of the things that are said, some of the prayers,

01:15:16

Tyler, let me just read just one little paragraph and ask you, really, honestly, this is what you think now is godly apostolic teaching?

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There is no doubt, St. Bernard adds, that Jesus Christ is the only mediator of justice between men and God.

01:15:47

But by virtue of his own merits and promises, he will and can obtain us pardon and divine favors. But because men acknowledge and fear the divine majesty, which is in him as God, for this reason, it was necessary to assign us another advocate to whom we might have recourse with less fear and more confidence.

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And this advocate is Mary, then whom we cannot find one more powerful with his divine majesty, one more merciful toward ourselves.

01:16:12

The saint says Christ is a faithful and powerful mediator between God and men. But in him, men fear the majesty of God.

01:16:18

A mediator then was needed with the mediator himself, nor could a more fitting one be found than Mary.

01:16:25

Do you need a mediator with the mediator, Tyler? Do you think that Jesus' mediation is one of justice and not one of love and mercy?

01:16:41

Obviously, my prayer is that as you begin attending these services, as you see the lighting of the candles, as you see the people rocking back and forth, fingering their rosaries, praying to Mary and to the saints and to the angels, and as you—I would challenge you to really learn what

01:17:12

Rome teaches. Ask the priest, are you an alter

01:17:19

Christus? Are you an alter Christus?

01:17:25

Were the words alter Christus used in your ordination? Mitch Paco was honest enough to say not only yes, they were, but to defend the idea that he is an alter

01:17:37

Christus, that he acts in the place of Christ. And then ask about what's really happening there.

01:17:49

Ask, am I being perfected when I attend to the sacrifice of Christ that is represented upon the altar?

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And there's only one answer that can be given to you. No, you're not. It is a perpetuatory sacrifice, but it's limited to your intentions and to the purity of your motivations.

01:18:13

You can go to Mass over and over again and yet die impure. And so,

01:18:20

Tyler, I have a feeling that you have once stood before people and talked about the finished work of Christ and the fact that the book of Hebrews contrasts the finished work of Christ with the unfinished pictures, shadows, and signs that pointed to it.

01:18:38

And that one of the evidences of the imperfection of the sacrifices of the old covenant was that they had to be repeated.

01:18:48

They became an anamnesis, a reminder of sins, year after year, because they had to be repeated. But Tyler, that's all you have now.

01:18:57

That's all you have. You see, you were once the blessed man. At least you claim to be.

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Romans 4, remember? Blesses the man to whom the Lord will not impute his sin. You're not the blessed man anymore and there is no blessed man.

01:19:12

If you commit a mortal sin, it'll be imputed to you and you have to go through the sacrament of penance and receive forgiveness and be re -justified.

01:19:18

If you commit venial sins, it's imputed to you and the temporal punishments cling to your soul and you'll end up in purgatory.

01:19:25

You don't, you're not the blessed man anymore, Tyler. You've abandoned that.

01:19:30

And the only way you can abandon that is if you never, ever truly found it to be the heartbeat of your soul.

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And that's what I said to Jason Stellman too. I don't understand how anybody who has ever known their utter and complete dependence upon the righteousness of another could ever, ever voluntarily enter into a system where you are no longer the blessed man.

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I ask Roman Catholics all the time, who's the blessed man? Remember Peter Stravinskis? Jesus!

01:20:15

Jesus is the blessed man. Yeah, blesses the man to whom the Lord will not impute his sin. Right. Well, he realized that didn't work.

01:20:21

He had obviously never even thought about it. And so he changed his answer. I hope to be. Is that all you've got left now,

01:20:31

Tyler? I hope someday, maybe. I hope. What a tragedy.

01:20:45

Now, if he stays there, if he doesn't repent, then what we have here is a fulfillment of Scripture.

01:20:54

First John chapter two. They went out from us so that it might be demonstrated that they were not of us.

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If they had been of us, they would have remained with us. It's necessary that if your church does not preach the gospel with sufficient clarity to drive the false professors out, then your church has a problem.

01:21:21

If your church does not preach the gospel with clear enough, with enough clarity, with enough force to drive the false professors out, then you got a problem.

01:21:35

You really do. And if he stays out, if he stays where he is, then praise be to God, another false professor has been exposed.

01:21:47

And that's a good thing. But obviously, there are many people praying that he will repent.

01:21:57

But as was said in the article that I mentioned by John Speed, he's exactly right.

01:22:06

If he were to repent, the only way that repentance could be shown to be true would be whether he would be willing to come back, not seek leadership, not seek any attention to himself, but to just simply be there, learn, serve, take care of kids in the nursery, pick up trash on the grounds, rake leaves, do whatever you need to do, mow the lawn.

01:22:35

That's right. That would be a good sign.

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It doesn't have to be up front, doesn't have to have everybody looking at me, oh, look at all the philosophers I've read. No, I will provide links to Tyler's testimony and to John Speed's.

01:23:02

Don't swim the Tiber with Tyler. And let me say something to believers out there.

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I mentioned this. This is why I posted what I did on the blog. Very often people are discouraged when they see something like this.

01:23:24

And we look at people. Don't get your eyes on people.

01:23:33

I hate when people call out, I have big fan ears. I don't want fans. I don't want followers.

01:23:41

I don't want you to in any way, shape, or form set me up to fall.

01:23:49

Because I will. If I endure to the end, it'll solely be by grace, not because of anything within me, not because of any goodness in me or anything else.

01:24:01

I want to endure to the end. We have someone in channel, her blog is, what is it?

01:24:10

A good ending? Is that the name of it? The whole idea is once you get to my age, you want to finish well.

01:24:17

I think my thing is finish well, something like that. The whole idea is finish well. I don't want to be one of those people that starts off with a flash and ends with a whimper.

01:24:35

I want to finish well. And that requires grace.

01:24:43

I don't want to be set up. I don't want people to be looking to me because I'm nobody to look to.

01:24:51

I've told the story many times before finishing well. Thank you. I've told the story before.

01:24:57

I'm going to tell it again. It was, you know, I can only tell stories that come from my life. At least I'm not making my life up.

01:25:03

Some people have to do. I was on staff for a while at a big church. I was very young.

01:25:12

And there was a man on staff there who really, in essence, was the pastor of the church in the sense that if something went wrong in your life, he was the one you ended up talking to.

01:25:20

You didn't talk to the big guy. He was the one who preached the big sermons. But everybody knew who the guy to go to was when you needed advice, help, that kind of thing.

01:25:33

And there was a central area. And there were all these offices. I mean, there's huge staff. And I happened to see a situation where this man was just treated horribly by another person on the staff, just horribly.

01:25:52

And I followed him into his office after this happened. And I said to him, how do you put up with that?

01:26:03

And he looked at me and he said, Jim, if you ever get your eyes off the shepherd and onto the sheep, you'll burn out of the ministry real fast.

01:26:16

And he was right. I got a chance, he died a couple of years ago, and I got a chance about a year before he died, maybe a year and a half before he died, to meet with him for lunch.

01:26:25

And I told him about that. I said, you know, I really appreciate it.

01:26:30

And of course, he didn't remember ever saying that to me, but he had the most amazing sense of humor.

01:26:37

And he made some joke out of having forgotten having said it to me. But anyway, but he's right.

01:26:45

My friends, if your certainty about the gospel and the truthfulness of what you're proclaiming is based upon somebody else or a group of somebody else's, whether it's

01:26:59

James White or R .C. Sproul or John MacArthur or John Piper or whatever person you want to put out there,

01:27:06

Mark Dever, I don't care. If your certainty is based upon them, you're in trouble.

01:27:15

You're immature. You're immature. And folks, we are living in a day of judgment.

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And in a day of judgment, there will be apostasy. There will be people, as judgment comes, who today make a big noise.

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And the day of persecution, they're going to fall apart.

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And if your faith is based upon them, so will you. Don't you dare base your faith on somebody else.

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It must be based upon the work of the Holy Spirit in your heart, who's convicted you of the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ, from which you gain everything.

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It's all you have. And it's all you need. And it's all you want. That's where I stand,

01:28:19

Tyler. That's why I'm not following you across the Tiber. You'll find it empty over there.

01:28:24

Dead. Filled with dead men's bones. Flee, Tyler McNabb.

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That's my word to you and everyone else. Thanks for listening. God bless. Now. The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega Ministries.

01:29:27

If you'd like to contact us, call us at 602 -973 -4602, or write us at P .O.

01:29:33

Box 37106, Phoenix, Arizona, 85069. You can also find us on the

01:29:38

World Wide Web at aomin .org. That's A -O -M -I -N dot O -R -G, where you'll find a complete listing of James White's books, tapes, debates, and tracks.