January 4, 2021 Show with Norman Horn, Doug Stuart, Kerry Baldwin, & Dick Clark on “Faith Seeking Freedom: Libertarian Christian Answers to Tough Questions”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron.

This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens

another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to

have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours and we hope to hear from you the listener with

your own questions.

And now here's your host Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on

the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday.

On this fourth day of January 2020, our first live

broadcast of 2021, I'm sorry, I started off the new year by

getting the wrong date, but this is January 4th, 2021, and I hope

I get used to saying that every day quickly.

Today we have what should be a fascinating interview.

It's one of those interviews where I am not 100 sure how much in agreement I will

be with my guests, but it is a subject that has intrigued me for quite some time.

That is the issue of Christian libertarianism or libertarian Christianity.

And we have four guests to discuss this issue today.

And specifically, we're going to be addressing a new book that these four individuals have

contributed to.

The book is Faith Seeking Freedom, Libertarian Christian Answers to Tough Questions.

And our guests today to discuss this will be Doug Stewart, Kerry Baldwin, and Dick Clark.

And we will be joined in just a bit, God willing, by Norman Horne.

And Norman Horne is the founder of the Libertarian Christian Institute,

which is the premier website exploring libertarian theory from a Christian point of

view, and the main organizer of the Christians for Liberty conference.

But first, let me have each of my guests introduce themselves one by one.

Doug Stewart, if you could let us know what your position and role is at

the Libertarian Christian Institute.

Hi, Chris.

Thanks for having me on, having us all on.

And so I am the CEO at...

Make sure we keep producing great content of

liberty.

We want Christians to be able to make the Christian case for a free libertarian case.

And so that's my role.

I've been in this role for about three years now.

And so Norman and I are partners in crime and keeping the organization rolling fast and

equipping the church.

And we have returning as a guest on this program, Kerry Baldwin.

And Kerry, if you could let our listeners know what your role and position is at the Libertarian

Christian Institute.

Hi, Chris.

Thanks.

I'm one of the contributing writers for LCI.

I'm sort of the token reformed libertarian there.

But yeah, that's my contribution.

I have been very accustomed to being a token reformed person in many spheres of life,

including where I worked for 15 years for a Salem media

affiliate, WMCA, which is now returned to the place of its birth,

New York City, where it started in the early 1900s.

But I worked for them when they were in Rutherford, New Jersey and Hasbrook Heights, New Jersey.

And I was the only reformed person on staff there for 15 years.

And that's still...

I might have been the last reformed person there as far as I know.

And Dick Clark, tell us about your role and your position there at the

Libertarian Christian Institute.

Norman and Doug and Kerry thought I might be a good fit.

I've known...

And if anybody wants to find out more about the Libertarian Christian Institute,

you can go to their website.

And that website is libertarianchristians .com, libertarianchristians

.com.

Doug, if you wouldn't mind giving us a working definition of

Christian libertarianism and distinguish it, compare and contrast it with

more mainstream libertarianism, because I think that there are extremely

significant differences from what I have heard from those that are Christian.

And it is also a matter of great concern and

apprehension and even fear when many Christians hear libertarian,

they automatically may think of those that have worn that title

proudly, who are in favor of abortion, or as I prefer to phrase it, the murder of

unborn children.

They have even some libertarians have stood for

the freedom of people to own and

purchase and sell child pornography.

You could go on and on with things that horrify your average Christian and may cause them to

immediately dismiss what you folks have to say, who are Christian libertarians, before you even have a

chance to say it.

So if you could, Doug, let our listeners know what is a Christian libertarian and

compare and contrast it with the more mainstream form of it.

Yeah, no, I'd be happy to do that.

I am alerted that Norman is on with us right now.

Did you want him to introduce himself as well?

Oh, sure.

Norman, thanks for joining us.

And tell us about your role and function there at the Christian Libertarian

Institute.

Sure, Chris, and thank you for having us on your program once again.

I very much appreciate it.

I presume you can hear me okay.

Is that all right?

Yeah, I hear you perfectly.

Again, I just really appreciate it to be on your program once again.

You know, we've known you for a couple of years now.

It's been really cool to see your show grow and

vary beyond in the past.

And you mentioned earlier, yes, I'm the founder and president of the

Libertarian Christian Institute back

in 2008 in the wake of the Obama election during November and December of

2008.

And it's just grown by leaps and bounds to such an extent, incorporated as

a nonprofit, cohesive

way, a type of message that we wanted to promote, which is

that every ability to

individual liberty matters.

So if I can remember every bit

of your

question.

The first thing that I thought of as you were asking was, well, just like with Christians who seem a little

frustrated when people assume things about us that we don't actually believe, or

any human being that sort of picks a label or category for themselves to align with,

there's a lot of misunderstanding that people tend to have about what that means.

So, you know, not all libertarians are in favor of abortion.

Not all libertarians are in favor of, you know, what we would kind of

commonly call libertinism, which is anything goes.

It doesn't matter what your lifestyle is.

It doesn't matter what your personal choices are, your vices or whatever.

But the core of it is that libertarianism is all about the non -aggression principle.

It basically means that without being provoked, I can't initiate force against you.

And I think that's a perfectly Christian thing to say.

And I also think that it's a perfectly loving thing to say to other human beings, is that I can't force you to do

something that I want or prefer that you do.

And unless you come at me or harm me, I'm, you know, ethically unable

to, sort of, you know, come at you in that sort of way.

So, you know, for Christians, it's like abstaining from compulsion is a

really great way to reflect Christ's love in sort of a public policy kind of sense.

Like, how do I approach, or when you ask the question, or when I think of the question, how do I think about my relationship to the

broader world, not telling them they have to do what I think they should do is a really, really good start.

And so, I'm blanking on, if you want to follow up with that, that'd be fine.

Well, perhaps, Norman, if you have anything to add to what Doug has said, as far as a, not only a

definition of Christian libertarianism, but comparing and contrasting it with the more mainstream

idea of it.

In fact, what has puzzled me, personally, is not long ago when a

candidate for the Libertarian Party was running for president, he was even in favor of

what seemed to be leftist gun control policies, which made no sense to me.

So, if you could give, you know, your own two cents in this before we move on.

Certain

principles

about how we are

to live,

and that

one of the

moral

ways of

acting and treating each other humanely,

we

have

a

general

revelation, the

fact

that God

may be

baselining

what they want, to realize things like voluntary action and charity are the ways that we can organize

amongst each other and create a better world.

And so, this is, in libertarianism, we're kind of trying to coalesce around all

these ideas synthetically together, and realizing that this is a good way of explaining,

and it also becomes an interesting witness to the world out there.

While there are so many libertarians out there who have recognized these general ethical principles

and realized that this is something that we value as well.

So,

we can

harmonize

plumb line

libertarianism, but in

the

similar sense that

there

are, that's kind

of where we've come down on it, there are certainly people out there in

libertarian circles who

we do agree on every,

executing violence against one another in order to try and get what we want.

And if we can do that together, then that, we

can trade together, and it's

actually been something

that LCI has both valued,

and

physicians now,

who weren't

originally, society,

secondary

effect.

And by the way, one of, one or more of you, even though you all sound,

as far as your voices, crystal clear, there is some echo back of what

everybody is saying, I don't know if you have a computer with a speaker on, or something like that, but if

whoever has their speakers on, where it's echoing back, that'd be great if you could mute that,

or if you don't need it to conduct the interview, that'd be

helpful.

Dick Clark, since you are a part of this organization

with a specific knowledge on firearms law,

going back to a question I had that, and perhaps you could correct me if I'm wrong,

but I seem to recall a recent candidate for President of the United States who

was representing the Libertarian Party, he very much

surprised me in what appeared to be affirming leftist gun

control restrictions, leftist gun control laws, and number one, am I right on that,

and how on earth is that remotely compatible with libertarianism?

I think that

you

are

given

right that we

happen to

live

in a country where that's

in our man

-made

law, libertarians

themselves

unrighteous, or

themselves

unjust, and you would want to,

unfortunately it was

a little bit mushy on principle,

when Gary Johnson, who was

conduct,

libertarians

would say he had

the plumb

line is where

it's at.

Yeah, so perhaps if you could, and perhaps let's

have Kerry, since we haven't heard much from her yet, Kerry, if you could distinguish

between pacifism and the principles of non -aggression.

My friend, the late William Norman Grigg, I don't know how many of you are familiar with Will,

great man, yes, he was a guest on the old Iron Trump and Zion radio quite a number of times,

a former Mormon who converted to Christianity, and

was at one time the editor of the New American Magazine,

brilliant man with an enormous

vocabulary, which is why he was nicknamed Thesaurus Rex by his friends,

but he made a clear distinction between pacifism and

the principles of non -aggression.

If you could, Kerry, give us your thoughts on that.

Pacifism is the idea that no matter how much aggression is committed against you, that

you can't use force.

The non -aggression principle

says that we

do emphasize

the wrong for you to go too far and use

too much violence.

We don't want to say that it's okay to kill somebody just because they

pushed you or something like that, but there's a very real sense

that we're able to draw that line between what is

illegitimate, which is initiating violence, what is legitimate, which is

defending yourself against violence, and that's all summed up in the.

Non -aggression principle.

By the way, folks, if you ever have something that you'd like to add,

please, you don't have to wait for me to call upon you.

Just chime in whenever you sense a break in the discussion, and also please identify yourself.

Obviously, Kerry doesn't need to do that since she's the only woman involved in the conversation, but

anybody else, if you could, identify who you are when you chime in, and we are going to our

first station break.

If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is ChrisArnzen at

gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Perhaps you have World War III going on in your own household because of a

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Thank you.

Welcome back this is Chris Arnzen if you just tuned us in.

Our guests today for the entire two hours of the program are Norman Horne, Doug Stewart,

Terry Baldwin and Dick Clark who are all co -authors of the book Faith

Seeking Freedom Libertarian Christian Answers to Tough Questions.

Our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at

gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the USA and I

usually only give the first name of a listener and their city state

and country of residence but when a pastor that I happen to know

writes in I like to identify them in full especially if they appear to have

given me permission to do so in their in their email.

We have Gordon Runyon who is pastor of Emmanuel Baptist Church in Tucumcari, New

Mexico who has two questions for you and perhaps we'll have

Doug Stewart first start off with a reply and

anybody else that wants to chime in afterwards and then we'll move on to the second question from

Pastor Gordon.

He asks would you please respond to the charge that libertarianism is

an inherently atheistic position?

Doug?

We get that you know I've heard.

That argument a number of times inherently atheistic I'm not really sure that there's any historical warrant for that.

There are plenty of atheists or I should say there are plenty of libertarians who claim to believe there's no god

and that maybe you know some of their rationale for believing in libertarianism has to do with you know

naturalistic explanation for things.

I mean I don't I don't really know where that sort of accusation even has a whole lot of like grip on

people because there's all clearly if people like us from the Libertarian Christian Institute we have

a lot to say that says libertarianism is based on Christian foundations as well.

I mean you can kind of funny to me to hear that

at the same time there's a the liberty movement

is in many ways very much a

Christian endeavor or it's been taken up by Christian modern libertarian movement there's a

lot of you know well -known Christians going back as promoting it

so that that in and of itself is is evidence that it's not inherently a

sure anybody could come to a belief about libertarianism or a political philosophy that

includes believing or sort of is founded like

and I know a lot of people believe that

objectivism which is philosophy espoused by Ayn Rand or founded by Ayn Rand who was an atheist

is very similar to libertarianism and there's certainly

politics.

So

God was the creator of

property rights he affirmed that and

is unchanging the

universe whose standard is the eternal unchanging immutable standard.

I think it's actually

the

atheist

term standard is the standard of unchanging justice

became a Christian libertarian.

Yeah thanks

Dick.

I think the accusation

does come

from Christians

who

talk.

About libertarianism as though it's only Ayn Rand's ideas and I

mean Ayn Rand herself rejected libertarianism but libertarianism is

based on principles that you know are from classical liberalism

from the French Revolution so I think

that there is various

principles that the world view but the

fact that atheists can see

that just lends itself well to what

Norman had said earlier about general revelation and the fact that you don't have to.

Be regenerate in order to...

Since you mentioned classical liberalism I guess it'd be wise for us to make

clear that this philosophy of

classical liberalism is not

identical or in many ways it's not even remotely close to what would be more accurately categorized

as leftism today.

For instance Thomas Sowell who is someone who is

greatly loved and embraced by many very conservative.

Thinkers he would consider himself a classical liberal.

Right.

So what I would call very

loosely in that regard classical liberalism comes

from John Locke and the ideas that founded this nation.

The ideas that you know we have inherent rights given to us by God

that you know

the Bill of Rights is even founded on classical liberal ideas.

So yes there's a huge distinction to be made between what we consider leftism or progressivism

today and the classical liberal views that.

Pastor Gordon has a second question and perhaps we'll have Norman start off with an answer.

Please comment on the idea that non -aggression principle or NAP is simply

an application of.

The golden rule to political theory.

I would slightly modify it.

It's important to realize that what the non -aggression principle does is it this defines what one

is not we are not to initiate force against others

not even initiation.

What the golden rule says

on the other hand is it is more of a power than

what we are to treat others the way we would want to be.

So I like to say that instead of it being you know the golden rule

being a say it's kind of like the other side of the coin you know on the one

side we have the NAP it is what we are not to do.

The even greater standard of what we want to do be doing to other

people.

We want to be treating them the way we would want to be treated with respect with dignity.

I want

to be treated.

I don't want you to come at me and abuse me and things like that because we could

you know define it that way as well.

The two halves of the coin two sides

of a coin and that's perhaps informal logic.

I would say that the non -aggression

principle is the contrapositive of the golden rule if you're familiar with logical

and in the other words what we should

abstain from and I want to point out libertarianism is

libertarianism is a theory of

justice

libertarianism

concerns and I be a non -aggressor okay which is a different

I be a righteous man okay so being a non -aggressor is certainly an important part of

being a righteous man.

But righteousness certainly we know the

minimum standard uh in fact we're supposed to go that extra mile as Jesus explained.

And another thing here with means what needs

christian libertarians

would say when

he tells her to go and send no more

he's clearly not endorsing conduct and he told her to stop it the

men who were going to condemn her and execute

her means to respond to her sins.

So it was not an endorsement to say that violence was not the way to answer that sin and

and so for christian libertarians we're not endorsing sins by saying that violence shouldn't be

used against them.

We're just saying that way to deal with this you know

I'm teaching right now in my semi -school class uh about the life of David uh

and up in the

night and take somebody wants to put an

end to this whole thing and kill us all.

And David I think would have been justified as far as man's law as far as

retribution eye for an eye he would have been justified in using that violent reprisal to end the conflict.

But he might have been justified in another response it didn't accomplish

for the kingdom what his peaceful libertarians are

saying.

It's not that the baseline of justice is the only thing to look at but if we don't even

if we don't affirm that we have to respect and

by the way.

Pastor Gordon you uh have won a free copy of faith seeking freedom

libertarian christian answers to tough questions so make sure that you give us your full mailing address in Tucumcari New

Mexico so that our friends at CVBBS Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service

CVBBS .com can ship that out to you.

And we want to thank our friends at the Christian Libertarian Institute or the

Libertarian Christian Institute for providing us with these free

books and we also want to thank CVBBS .com for

shipping them out to our winners.

And one of the things that I'd like to

make sure that we address one of the primary

things that seems to separate the philosophies and ideologies

of many who would claim to be libertarian or even christian libertarians

and those that would claim to be conservative or patriotic or other

labels.

There are those that might be considered on the right who have become

weary of using the term conservative because they think that there's such little to conserve

in the 21st century that is left here in our political framework here in the United

States.

But one of these areas that gives great concern

to christians conservatives and others is the area of

the war on drugs.

They are dismayed they are apprehensive they are fearful or just

radically opposed to the libertarian idea that drugs should be

legal and I'm obviously not speaking of

pharmaceuticals that are taken for medical reasons I'm talking about recreational drugs

and perhaps we can hear from Norman on this and

anybody else that wants.

To

chime in

after

that we begin with

individuals in order.

That being said it doesn't mean that by

opposing prohibition to begin with as donning

we do believe that it's important for individuals to be able

to without necessarily

involving government reprisal against it.

But nonetheless uh it's a

comment on such so we can say look taking taking

drugs such as methamphetamine or something like that is is a is a

could not do.

If the government is to have any activity at all

and that is

in uh

in something they can be uh

as they do

something to that

individual liberty means being able to.

Make wrong choices.

In fact Norman if we could pick up where you left off because we have to get our midway break right now.

And uh if anybody would like to join us on the air our email address is chrisarmson at gmail .com.

And remember folks this is our longer than normal break in the middle of the show so we ask for

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Today and always.

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Solid -ground -books .com always mention that you heard about them from chris arnzen on iron sharpens iron

radio before we return to our guests today who are norman horn doug stewart

kerry baldwin and dick clark co -authors of faith seeking freedom libertarian

christian answers to tough questions.

You just have a couple of more announcements to make.

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will help us to continue to do so.

Uh also folks if you are not a member of a local bible believing church i have lists of biblically

faithful churches all over the planet earth and i may be able to help you find a church no matter where you live.

I have already helped people in all parts of the world find churches sometimes within just a few

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So send me that email to chrisarnson at gmail .com and put i need a church in the subject line.

That's also the email address where you could send in a question for norman horn doug stewart kerry baldwin and dick

clark the co -authors of faith seeking freedom libertarian christian answers to

tough questions.

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com.

And before i have norman horn finish his thought when we were talking about

the libertarian opposition to the war on drugs i just wanted to read a commendation for

this book by someone who is probably very recognizable to the vast majority

of listeners in the iron sharpens iron radio audience.

And that's the honorable andrew p napolitano senior judicial

analyst at the fox news channel uh honorable andrew p

napolitano says faith seeking freedom is a basic primer

on serious libertarianism seen through the informed intellects of

serious christians.

Its q a format is easy to read utterly faithful to christian doctrine and

libertarianism libertarian beliefs and leaves you fulfilled yet asking for more.

I strongly recommend it.

So that should whet your appetite uh to explore this book whatever your position may be

on the issue uh and norman horn if you could uh pick up where you left off

and anyone else uh if you could if you feel uh the interest in adding to what

norman has said.

And please always identify who you are when you're chiming in.

But norman begin with you.

We were talking about the libertarian.

Opposition to the war on drugs right on and all

libertarianism for that

matter number one is the

need to be opposed.

If that is the case then that brings

us increases the power of the government and conservatives everywhere should hate this.

Increasing the power of the government is supposed to be something that conservatives are going to be.

It should be again.

War on drugs intensely increases the power of the government.

The reason number four is that uh reason number four would be that it is actually a

it is a backwards way of thinking.

We are at least 100 years behind schedule when it comes to medical uh innovations that could have been

achieved through the use of these types of materials in a safe and reasonable manner.

There are certain drugs out there that because they are on the schedule one list do not get researched do not get

addressed by scientists in any in any reasonable way possible.

And that puts us a a a long stretch behind in development of good

and reasonable ways of you just because

they have a negative usage.

Just the final reason is that it is a

mistreatment of the issue itself by turning drug use into a criminal activity rather

than a health issue as it is propping anybody who

is actually by treating

them as criminals rather it is a very it is a uh

from doing them justice entire time we've been on that break

and of the argument against the war on just

don't use aggression.

Um let me pile on a little bit on on top of what norman said.

And who is this.

Uh.

And i'll quote and i'll quote from what i suspect is and who is this.

This is dick clark.

Okay

racism

and

severe

to address

the limited

actually

people

will bring

up.

Uh how

those

in

the.

Communities where drugs are prevalent uh are having their lives endangered through the

increase of crime.

And i'm not saying of course that i agree that heavy -handed uh legal

restrictions or law enforcement activity against those purchasing and selling

and purchasing and selling illegal drugs is the answer.

I'm just saying that those that are opposed uh to the

legalization of uh recreational serious uh

dangerous recreational drugs are very often very much thinking

about the lives and safety of those in their own community including the young.

So perhaps if you want to just respond to that and and uh anybody else that wants to chime in about that.

Our

element

is a more

remote threat what

we have to on when violence is justified.

And it is limited to those circumstances where eminent in

nature these more remote press on the community

over years or or months say that they justify an immediate

forceful response.

And and certainly he said he was going to come and get me a week from thursday so i had to shoot him.

Judge i had to shoot him.

Ladies and gentlemen the jury that wouldn't hold water in a self -defense context.

And making that defensive argument about the more remote threats of drug abuse doesn't

hold water either.

Now with with that said we do not say ought to be able to use intoxication

as a defense.

Didn't know any better.

That's no defense right.

Because you shouldn't have been so irresponsible as to make yourself that intoxicated.

So certainly we do not excuse you know.

Uh.

And they came into play and causing that effect.

Do we or we want to go and restrain people

before they've actually engaged in something that amounts to an injustice.

And i think i talked over carrie.

So.

About something because um and dick you alluded to this which is a causation

problem.

Um you know.

And even back during the time of uh alcohol prohibition right.

One of the reasons why uh we prohibited alcohol was because of the

argument that alcohol was was causing uh problems in the family.

Um you had a lot of um women who are out there who are who are protesting the

use of alcohol.

They were advocating for its prohibition saying hey alcohol is causing problems.

And you know we certainly don't deny that.

The problem is how we are handling it how how we use the state in

order to respond to these problems.

And i think covid gives us an excellent perspective for understanding why libertarians

are so opposed to drug prohibition.

If you look at covid and the fact that we have that the state has clamped down on us

using the force of violence against us because in in the name of safety and our

health um we can actually see how they've created a problem.

You have an increase in suicide.

You have an increase in drug and alcohol abuse right now because of the lockdown.

Okay new mexico alone we've had the highest suicide rate.

And the kind of violence that we're dealing with here is domestic violence.

And it's so high in fact that they're having to triage.

There's a lot of victims

we're not.

That

doesn't

addiction.

It's actually making the problem.

Even.

Okay we have a question i don't know uh if we have any

experts on this subject uh from the fiscal area of libertarianism

but we have linda in hilltop lakes texas who says

how does christian libertarianism see bitcoin.

Does anybody have an answer to that.

Does anybody have an answer.

This is norman and

i would.

That's

a that's a

fun.

Weights and measures are

divorced.

It's

only

been

around since 2009.

We would say that you know

there is another option.

Uh we're seeing the rapid money is being and having the potential in

the long term like we cannot necessarily predict

certainly make any type of investment decision based on

such an assessment.

Some type of alternative is uh

is again if i could just that's a

phrase that we draw from scripture but in

proverbs

20 and micah six of the problem uh that we

use for

value the way that we

literally compare

apples or anybody else

measures

because money

is the

things right.

It's the common

denominator i

see

it's

also used to

funny and

turning it

into an entitlement.

Okay

well

thank.

You linda and make sure we have your full mailing address in hilltop lakes texas because you have

also won a free copy of the book.

We are addressing faith seeking freedom libertarian christian answers to

tough questions by our guests today.

And that's compliments of our friends at the libertarian christian institute and also our friends at

cvbbs .com cumberland valley bible book service who will actually be shipping the book out to

you at no charge.

To you or to iron trump and zion radio.

Thank you linda and keep spreading the word in hilltop lakes texas and beyond.

About iron trump and zion radio.

Uh we have an anonymous listener who says i'm remaining anonymous because of the fact

that i seem to routinely get into arguments with my brothers and sisters in christ at my own church

over libertarianism.

My question involves something i heard chris arms and the host of this program say a

few times where he said that he has libertarian leanings in some areas

but also believes in very strong border control.

I happen to be in that category myself and i was wondering where

each of the participants fall on the issue of border control.

It seems to be a suicidal libertarianism to let anyone

into our nation when they could jeopardize the safety well -being and even the

political freedoms we cherish in doing so.

And why don't we start with doug this time since we'll be.

I don't think we heard from doug in the very.

Recent

yeah history

of the

program are very

concerned with

cultural values that and even if

it's not

necessarily

christian they're

really worried that something

like what a

libertarian believes liberal because we're

all created equal in the

image of god.

Americans are not the only ones that are

created in god's image contrary

to uh some people's

uh but if you're able to live and act peacefully like

you're not a criminal you you're not you know running from the law

it's

one thing

read

the bible

without seeing

that god has a

heart or on the margin.

So i know that my co -authors are also going to chime in here with with their sort of angle on it

um but the libertarian answer and to reach

them for this

we're born in mexico because you can make your life

better my life

better and improve the lives of my family.

I'm going to move.

And then you've got other people standing across an arbitrary line says oh no no no you can't because you weren't born here

or because you seeking to make a

life better.

And uh anybody if you could

identify

yourself

of

the innocence the

way to go.

I have

one message

and

that

is that

we

must

not

legally

discriminate on

a government

line on

me

as a natural

born citizen united

states uh because again of

these really talking

about and

at the end of the

day i think that

the only form of patriotism that's a principal concern to a believer is the one described in philippians 320.

Our citizenship is to the

stranger.

And i would uh ask of you perhaps i

could at

some point.

Give each of you a copy of this book so that you can read it.

And perhaps we could have you respond to it at some point.

But uh years ago a book was written actually by a friend of mine.

David dykstra wrote a book called yearning to breathe free thoughts on immigration

islam and freedom and he describes in detail the laws

of the old testament when it came to immigration and

how we are to respond to different kinds of strangers.

And of course this was specifically speaking about the nation of israel was to respond to different

kinds of strangers that were coming into their midst.

And obviously uh welcoming to many of them is a is a part of christian

hospitality.

But that does not mean necessarily that you just like you wouldn't necessarily let anybody

onto your own property where you live or through the doors of your home.

Uh there are reasons to have restrictions.

And in fact let me just ask one more question before we go to our final break.

Uh do you uh and i believe it was uh dick

clark that was responding last.

Do you believe in borders.

Do you believe that nations have have the right.

And is a is it a good and wise thing.

For

nations to

have

borders and by

the

way it

looks like

that uh but we think

that's a

consequence of spin

and we do see that when we become

regenerated by the by the watching of uh is that

that i can be a member of as a christian is the kingdom of god.

And of course

there are immigrants.

Who have established very lucrative and happy uh

lives and careers here in this nation who want people to legally go through the

process to immigrate here and not violate laws and who are not in favor of everybody just

strolling across the border who wants to be here no matter what their motive and

so.

Obviously there is that opinion out there and perhaps one time we could have a

debate in the future over this because i think it's something where christians who are no less

christians or no less loving caring uh and uh hateful

towards racism and bigotry uh who are on the other side of the issue when it

comes to that.

But if i could just.

I think part of

that

exacerbates

getting the

welfare

state

because

they want to.

Great.

We have to get our final break.

It's going to be a lot more brief than the other breaks that you've heard.

Uh if you have any intention or desire to send in a question i would urge you to do so

immediately because we're rapidly running out of time.

Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence.

If you live outside the usa don't go away we'll be right back.

Was your business shut down during the covet 19 pandemic depriving you of earning any

money causing you to default on your rent as you try to survive without income.

Maybe you've had to close your doors for good.

The good news you thought was that you purchased business interruption insurance as a part of your

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Welcome back.

And i'd like each of our participants now to have about a minute

to summarize what they want most etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners in regarding

libertarian christianity.

And let's start with kerry baldwin.

And i'll announce each of the participants who i'd like to chime in with their final thoughts.

And i already know that i'd like to have you all back again because there are a lot of

things we haven't even touched the surface haven't even scratched the surface on.

So if you could kerry summarize your thoughts in about a.

Minute time.

Oh thank you chris.

Um you know we've talked a lot about drugs and immigration and we didn't get to

touch on abortion.

But i do think that the common thread there is a question of how do we as as christians as

a society as culture.

Um how do we respond to people in crisis.

Do we respond to them with violence.

Or is there a better way to respond to those things so that they aren't that they are both

resolved and also not prevalent parts of our of our culture and society.

And so it seems it seems to me abundantly clear that a libertarian

view of civil governance and and and austrian economic theory

of of you know how the economy functions actually produces

the best way that we can resolve these problems in a peaceful way.

In a peaceable way in a just way um where we don't have an expansive government

and we don't have illegitimate uses of force and violence which is

okay.

And if dick clark will put in his minute.

Yeah thank you.

No i i just want people to remember that as

a good god as a god who would teach us how

to be righteous cheaply through the example of his

son are seeking

freedom.

But let

me just uh in closing quote a different book uh by frederick bastiat and he said after having

vainly inflicted upon the social body so many systems ought to have begun

reject all systems and try liberty faith in god and in

his work.

And that's where i would leave it.

I think that trusting in

god and i hope my fellow believers will trust him that fully.

And doug stewart yeah i mean i would say to every listener you

belong to god other humans don't own you and you don't own other humans.

So because we are gods we are to live as christ and to love others extend grace and live peaceably

with all people as the apostle paul said.

So this is one of the biggest reasons why i think libertarianism is the most consistent political philosophy with christian faith

uh is because we are owned by god and that is uh kind of non -negotiable for me

and norman horn all

that large we think we

see those same

types of people

think we

have a problem

the state is not is

against god.

Or why

that might be the case.

Take a look at our book uh you can

get it in a kindle you

can get it and pay

for bad society.

As we are getting broken up more and more we as christians are going to

make an input continue to do so it will be not through the form

the ever man and.

We're out of time and i just want to repeat your website libertarianchristians .com libertarian christians

.com.

I want to thank all of you for being excellent guests today.

I want to thank all of you who listened and especially those who took the time to write.

I hope you all always remember that jesus christ is a far greater savior than you are a sinner

amen.