August 1, 2016 Show with Paul Flynn on “Unbiblical Ecumenism at the ‘TOGETHER 2016’ Gathering in DC” PLUS “The Doctrines of Grace in Ireland Today”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio

platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, iron sharpens iron, so one

man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we

converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another

wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour, and we hope to hear

from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host, Chris Arntzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County,.

Pennsylvania, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via

live streaming.

This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Monday on this

first day of August 2016.

I'm delighted to have my friend Paul Flynn back on the program, direct

from the Republic of Ireland.

He is founder of Megiddo Films, Megiddo Radio, and Megiddo TV,

and we're going to be discussing a very controversial theme today, a theme that is no

doubt going to get some folks listening angry with both of us,

and I have found doing this program over the years, I have those both on the right and on

the left of me getting angry with me.

Some folks believe that I am far too soft on this program against the errors of

others, and some think that I am arrogant and bigoted, and

some kind of an exclusivist or isolationist, or what have you, but

there are things that we are to be exclusivist about, though, and that is the person and work of the

Trinity and the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Those are obviously things that are to be held with great exclusivism, and

that is one of the reasons we are discussing this topic, the unbiblical ecumenism at the

Together 2016 gathering in Washington, D .C., and then during the

second hour, we hope to discuss the doctrines of sovereign grace, and in particular, the

doctrines of sovereign grace today in the Republic of Ireland, where our guest Paul

Flynn lives, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Trepans Iron, Paul Flynn.

Thank you so much, Chris, for having me on again.

And let me give our email address to the listeners.

It is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, that's C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E

-N at gmail .com, and if you would, please give us at least

your first name, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

USA, and I understand that if you feel uncomfortable identifying

yourself in regard to something that you're going to say, perhaps you are unhappy with

your own church's or own pastor's views of ecumenism, or

perhaps you are not even a Christian and you feel uncomfortable identifying yourself because you don't want the public

to know that you're listening to this program, or anything that would involve you feeling more comfortable

remaining anonymous, we will honor your request, so you may remain anonymous if you feel

more comfortable doing so.

And again, that email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

and as we always do, Paul, for those of our listeners who have discovered you for the first

time today, if you could please let our listeners know about Megiddo Films Radio

and Television.

Sure, I've been going since November of

2010, just started off one movie project, and

kind of going from there, and I had years of experience in

promoting not Christian topics at the time, but just from my past involved in

music and things like that, and I kind of just continued it, but the content gradually changed, and promoting

bands and promoting, especially my own bands at the time, began to share in the gospel with the same mailing lists I

often had, and as time went on, a Christian website emerged, and it eventually became Megiddo Films.

There's a couple of movies online, I think there's four at the moment on YouTube, and they can be watched for free.

Megiddo Radio started when was it, May of 2011, it's been going on for five years,

yeah, five years now, time flies, and it's just,

it's kind of like, it feels like yesterday, it all started, and well, by the grace of

God, I'm still doing it, and he's preserving me to keep going.

Amen, and you did a remarkable job with your critique or expose of the book, the

very popular best -selling book, The Shack.

Thank you, praise the Lord, yeah, it's, did you hear about the, not to change the subject too much,

but the movie's coming out next year, March of 2017.

You mean the actual movie by those who promote the book, and who

wrote it, and so on, okay.

Yeah, that movie's coming out, so I'm trying to push, I'm trying to push the movie as much as possible, so that hopefully the truth

can get out there.

You mean your movie.

Yeah, there's two different movies, there's one that Paul was involved in, a documentary that exposes the

heresies of The Shack, and there is actually a movie version of The Shack coming

out, you know, that has the involvement of the author, and those who

support the book enthusiastically.

So, we will have to do another program near that event,

when that movie is released, so those of our listeners who are planning to go to it,

will be advised as to the danger of it, and obviously there are people who will go to

it, not because they agree with the book, or the movie, but they

want to speak intelligently when they try to dissuade their family, friends, and loved ones from going.

But anyway, there was an event

on July 16th, 2016 in Washington DC called

Together 2016, and I think it's also been called Reset

2016.

I first became aware of it when my friend Brian Richardson approached me at a

barbecue and said to me very aggressively, are you going to do a show on

Together 2016?

And I said, I don't even know what you're talking about.

He said, you don't know about this ecumenical event that's happening, and it's got people who

you have respected and interviewed, who have endorsed your

show, and they're going to be on a panel together with all different

kinds of heretical individuals, and even the Pope is supposed to be somehow involved in this.

I said, really?

I haven't even heard of it.

And when I went on the internet

looking up this event, it was very cryptic.

I was looking at their website, and I could not find a lot of

specific details at that time, and there was no mention of the Pope's involvement at that time.

But it did involve folks like Ravi Zacharias, who I've had on this program

back around 2000, I don't know, sometime between 2007 and 2010.

Someone I've highly respected over the years.

Francis Chan, who I do not know much about, but from what I understand, in spite of

his critics having problems with many of the things that he has written and

said, he at least is somebody that I, from what I know, is known for believing in the

gospel of Jesus Christ and the inerrancy of the Word of God and so on.

Then I heard that Hillsong was involved, and from my understanding, they

have some aberrant, soft approach to the sin of homosexuality

that perhaps my guest knows more about than I do.

And there were others that I don't really know too much about who they are.

But anyway, tell us about this event that took place,

Paul, and I know that you knew about it in advance with enough time that you

actually listened to it via live streaming, at least a great portion of it.

Yeah, I remember when I watched this, I'd already covered it on the radio show a couple

days beforehand, and I was just hoping that some of

these men were going on, who I would have had quite a bit of respect for prior to this, would have

at least called out or made quite a big distinction.

I remember when it was live, I stuck it on, and Nabeel Qureshi was on, and then followed by Ravi

Zacharias, and I didn't hear any kind of distinction.

It was, oh, it's fantastic to be here.

You know, typical platitudes when people are speaking at a conference.

And I know you won't always agree with people who you go to a conference with, but when the entire

aim or goal of the event is, and I better just quote Nick Hall as the organizer, just to

use his words, he says, it's the Church from all backgrounds, Lutherans, Catholics, Pentecostals,

it's going to be worship, it's going to be prayer, it's going to be lifting up Jesus and praying that he

changes our hearts individually.

So from the get -go, Nick Hall's own words, he's the organizer, very ecumenical

tone, and no distinction between Biblical Christianity and Roman Catholicism.

And I remember when I saw some of the names, I was kind of going, maybe

they made a mistake, maybe they just accepted it a bit too early, but too much of this has been out in the media for too long, and

I wasn't sure if the Pope was really involved.

Some of the websites that were reporting it initially, let's just say you really have to do some fact

-checking before you take what they say at face value.

But I kept, I checked it, and then eventually the video went out

from the Pope.

But Nick Hall, even from his own Facebook page,

he's the founder of Pulse, an organization I

didn't actually know anything about prior to this event.

But he said that he had talked to the Pope, met him in the Vatican,

was really excited, and you could tell by the video he saw him as a brother in Christ.

I don't think there's any doubt about that.

So from the get -go, and I've heard

critics of people, there's bad critiques on both sides.

There's some bad hit pieces against some people have been there.

I would urge some people to be accurate in the critiques if they can, and take their time.

But then on the other side, it's kind of a misunderstanding of when we should go to things as Christians.

I'm not saying that you can't go, say for example, if CNN asks you on, and they're all leftists, whenever,

talk to them.

But the platform has to be in some way, not that it's going to be blaspheming God, or in any

way that we're claiming that all the people there are Christians.

If we go there and say, I disagree with these people, this might be a Jewish rabbi, this might be an imam,

I am representing the God of the Bible, these men do not.

If you can set up a platform like that and do that, then I

have no problem with it.

But the problem is, you're saying by joining hands and not rebuking in any way, shape, or form, everybody's going to

go away from this, thinking Roman Catholics are believers in Christ.

This is the major problem with it.

Yeah, and there seems to be a

pragmatic view among a lot of people who think that

the positives far outweigh the negatives, whenever you have a massive crowd at anything.

And they've said the same things about the Billy Graham crusades.

For instance, when Billy Graham has had on his platform people who actually deny

the gospel of Jesus Christ, I have had friends say, yeah, but don't you understand, then

the people that follow that false person will more likely be in the audience

to hear the gospel.

And my response typically has been, but the gospel they're hearing is totally undermined

if the people in the audience think that that enemy of the gospel up there with Billy Graham

is in agreement with the gospel that's being presented, and that Billy Graham

is in agreement with the false teacher.

There's a difference between false Christians or people in false religions

being in the audience at something, but when they're a part of the actual presentation

of the messages being given, that's where the real serious danger is.

I mean, am I coming from a right approach here?

Absolutely.

No, I agree.

I remember coming from, when I was saved first, I was in fundamentalist churches for a couple of years.

I did not know where to draw the line.

I was like, back and forth.

I saw a massive inconsistency where I was, and

why can't we, okay, we appreciate these brothers' book, can I get to bed?

So I didn't know.

I think eventually I've kind of come to the position that that's why the Reformed confessions are there.

They represent wonderful unity and also safeguards against falsehoods.

And not to get off on that tangent straight away because we'll be probably dealing with that later on, but what we're

dealing with here is the gospel, how we're representing the gospel.

I remember a man who we used to listen to a lot of years ago made this

analogy.

If you're, you can be presenting the gospel and presenting all the facts of the Atonement and representing how people are

sinful, but if you're dressed in a clown suit, you're going to undermine it.

The way you're representing it is going to kind of go, okay, he's not really taking this seriously.

So it's not that what you're wearing is that important, but try not to make it distracting.

Now that's just an analogy, what I mean, it's just, it's giving mixed messages.

You're saying that the Roman Catholic Church teaches the same gospel, and in the same way Billy Graham back in his

crusades said, go back to your churches, be they liberal or, you know, like apostate churches or

Roman Catholic churches.

He didn't really, you know, if people want to compare it to Billy Graham, it is very comparative to Billy Graham.

It's like a modern version of what Billy Graham was doing.

Oh, Billy Graham and Franklin have really

praised Pope John Paul II with the highest of accolades.

I don't know what they may have said about the current pope, but John Paul II,

they both said that he, that Billy Graham and his son Franklin both said that he

was one of the greatest Christians, if not the greatest Christian of the 20th century.

And Billy Graham was a close personal friend of John Paul II, even

before he became a pope.

And the very day that he became a pope, Billy Graham preached in his church in

Poland, obviously not to condemn the false teachings of the

Roman Catholic Church, but to uphold the teachings as being completely consistent with

Christianity.

And it might be helpful, believe me, I'm not going to go through all of the anathemas

that the Council of Trent has dogmatically declared against those who believe

in the biblical gospel.

And of course, those of us who are Bible -believing Christians who consider

ourselves to be heirs of the Reformation, we are included as the targets

of these anathemas, just as the Reformers were 500 years ago.

But I'm going to just go through some of the anathemas of the Council of Trent, and keep in

mind that the 16th century council that declared

anathemas against those who either rejected what the

Catholic Church affirms, or taught things in

contradiction to the Catholic Church, these anathemas were intended to say that these individuals

were accursed by God, and that they were cut off from God.

This was not some light thing that modern Catholics, even modern

conservative Catholics, try to make of the anathemas.

They basically say today, well, that just means you can't be a Roman Catholic in good standing.

It doesn't mean that you're accursed.

It doesn't mean that you're going to hell.

Well, obviously, if the Catholic Church was torturing people and setting them on

fire while they were still alive, and martyring them for being

anathematized by the Catholic Church if they did not repent, they had a lot more

serious definition of anathema than the modern Catholic does.

Let me just go through some of these, just so our listeners know that it is not Paul and I here

who are the mean -spirited bigots, or that we're just

coming up with this understanding of the gospel out of our own

opinion or something.

Let me just read some of these.

If anyone shall say that since Adam's sin the free will of man is lost and

extinguished, or that it is a thing with a name only, yea, a title without a reality,

a figment in fine, brought into the church by Satan, let him be

anathema.

If anyone say that by faith alone the impious is justified, so as to mean

nothing else is required to cooperate in order unto the

obtaining of the grace, or obtaining the grace of justification, and that it is

not in any respect necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the

movement of his own will, let him be anathema.

If anyone shall say that men are justified either by the sole imputation of the

righteousness of Christ, or by the sole remission of sins, to the exclusion of the

grace and the charity which is shed abroad in their hearts by the Holy Ghost,

and is inherent in them, or even that the grace by which we are justified is

only the favor of God, let him be anathema.

If anyone shall say that justifying faith is naught else but confidence in the divine mercy which

results, which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is this confidence

alone by which we are justified, let him be anathema.

If anyone shall say that he will for certain, for an absolute and infallible certainty,

have that great gift of perseverance unto the end, unless that he have learnt

this by a special revelation, let him be anathema.

If anyone shall say that the grace of justification only befalleth those who are

predestined unto life, but that all others who are called are called indeed, but

receive not grace, as being by the divine power predestined unto evil, let him be

anathema.

If anyone shall say that the commandments of God are, even for a man that is justified

and constituted in grace, impossible to keep, let him be anathema.

If anyone shall say that the justice received is not preserved, and also increased in the

sight of God through good works, but that the said works are

merely the fruits and signs of justification received, but not a cause of

the increase thereof, let him be anathema.

If anyone shall say there is no deadly sin but that of infidelity, or that grace once

received is not lost by any other sin, however grievous and enormous,

save only by that of infidelity, let him be anathema.

And if anyone shall say that after the grace of justification received unto

every penitent sinner the guilt is so remitted, and the penalty of eternal punishment so blotted

out, that there remains not any penalty of temporal punishment to be

discharged either in this world or the next in purgatory, before the entrance to the

kingdom of heaven can be laid open, let him be anathema.

And that is just a fraction of the 63

anathemas against Protestants in the Council of Trent, and there's actually more anathemas

against Protestants, but to list them would be redundant.

I have created a list here that I will email anyone listening

of these anathemas straight from a Roman Catholic website, and

I only listed 63.

There are more that would be relevant, but they would be redundant because they really involve the same

teachings and beliefs and so on.

But so to think that when you considered how long it took me to

read just a fraction of those anathemas, and that there are about five

times as many, perhaps more, that I did not read,

that condemn us to hell, and that these anathemas are still

in existence in the Catholic dogma, these are

anathemas that cannot change, because for them to be renounced would

totally crumble the concept of papal infallibility, because there is a difference in the Catholic Church

between dogma and discipline, and discipline can change over the years, like not

eating meat on Friday and all these other kinds of things.

Even syllabus -y in the priesthood, that can change.

But dogma in the Catholic Church cannot ever change.

These are included within the dogma of Rome, and even as

liberal as Pope Francis is, the most liberal pope that has ever existed, he has not

overturned these anathemas, he has not renounced these anathemas.

So doesn't that clearly teach here that the Church of Rome has a different gospel than

we do who consider ourselves heirs of the Reformation?

But sadly the message of.

Together 2016, and just to remind myself, a lot of it I went through, I skipped through a lot of music, but

it was about six hours, it was about seven hours in total before they had to shut it down with the heat exhaustion of a lot

of people.

But the basic message was, why are we arguing about this kind of stuff?

Why are we arguing about doctrine and things like that?

Let's just get together, a big rally for Jesus.

It was really like a pep rally, the entire thing, and I don't know, a lot of it was about self

-esteem, and one of the things we don't understand the Reformation anymore,

and I think, you know, and you were reading there from the succession of the, I think it was all from the succession on

justification, you were reading from there, that a modern

evangelical could read this, okay, and kind of go, okay, canon one and two is a condemnation of

Pelagianism, and we would agree with that, not everything in the Council of Trent is necessarily wrong, but canon three

and four, you've got condemnation of Calvinism that is,

would be, a lot of evangelicals are going, you know what, I actually agree with this.

And this is the thing, and you know, it's like, as Rome, have we actually misunderstood Rome?

And the problem is, the evangelicals think that Rome denies the necessity of grace, it has never,

ever done that, it actually enables it.

In the first canon, anybody who denies the necessity of grace, it's the sufficiency of grace they have

always denied.

And that's the problem, and it's like Augustus Toplady said, like, it works as a fact that

Arminianism is a road to Rome.

You see the people at this conference, they are almost disarmed, what they can say,

because they can't be clear in the doctrines of grace anymore.

It's kind of like, oh, free will, what's that, and election, who knows, but if you saw the,

if you read, you know, Fox's book of martyrs and what the martyrs were saying, they were talking about,

elect me for the foundation of the world, I am persevering today because God has enabled me to do so.

They were thorough -going Calvinists.

To a man, I can't find anybody, any of these men who were born to the cross, not born to the cross, but born to the

stake, were kind of going, I'm trusting in my free will, I

know Arminians don't necessarily say that, but they were all trusting in the free grace

of God, and that God showed mercy on them as sinner, not that I made the right decision and,

you know,.

Thank God for that charismatic preacher.

Yeah, well, we're going to be going to a break right now.

If you would like to join us on the air with a question of your own for Paul Flynn, our email address is

chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

We will be right back with more of our discussion with Paul Flynn on Together 2016 in

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen.

I don't know if the Vatican somehow got a hold of the transmitter that we are broadcasting

out of, but we were off the air momentarily.

I'm not sure how long, but I actually got an email from a listener in Scotland

who said that we were off the air, but

thanks be to God, we are back on the air.

So I want to thank Murray in Kinross, Scotland,

for letting us know that we had gone off the air, but are back on.

But thankfully, the entire recording of whatever you folks missed is

most likely intact because the recording never stopped.

But thank you, Murray in Kinross, Scotland, and perhaps if you have a question for our guest

Paul Flynn, we can address that at chrisarnzen

at gmail .com, c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail

.com.

And we thank those of you who listen to this program from all over the world

and participate in the broadcast with your questions and comments.

For those of you who just tuned us in or for those of you who lost the

live feed through technical errors that we were unaware of, we are

discussing right now an event that took place in Washington, D .C. in

July called Together 2016.

It was an ecumenical event that had

speakers and performers, predominantly those from Evangelical Christianity, but

there was also a special message from Pope Francis on a jumbo screen,

and we are discussing whether or not such events are appropriate for

Bible -believing Christians to participate in.

We also, before the break, were going through some of the Council of Trent's anathemas

against the Reformers, and of course that would include the heirs of

the Reformers, such as Paul Flynn and I and all of those who share the

Gospel of the Reformation as being the Gospel of the Bible and the Gospel

of the Apostles and especially the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

These anathemas that Rome declared in the 16th century against the

Reformers are still binding today, they are still

dogma, and even as liberal as Pope Francis is, he has not overturned them

or renounced them, and he knows that to do so would cause the whole

system of papal infallibility to crumble, because dogma, once it has been defined and

declared by a Pope, cannot be changed.

That's one of the key teachings of the Roman Catholic Church.

But what I would like to do right now is I would like to

play a clip that Paul, actually our guest Paul

Flynn, has provided that involves Ravi Zacharias at a,

I believe it's a university, but it's some kind of a live event with a live audience.

Texas A &M Veritas Forum.

On March the 19th, 2014.

That's the details I have in there.

Okay, and someone in the audience.

Asked a very good question on Roman Catholicism in regard

to whether or not it should be listed as a cult, and we will hear Ravi

Zacharias' answer, and we will comment on that when we.

Are completed with the clip.

Let's take a

question from this side.

Good evening Dr. Zacharias and Dr. Nabil.

It's a great honor to have you here tonight with us.

For about six or seven years now, me and my friends have been going out evangelizing in the streets, and I'm sorry to change

gears here, but I'm in desperate need of your help tonight.

We encounter a lot of groups on the streets, different religious groups, Mormons, Jehovah's

Witnesses, things like that, and one group we have a particular problem with sometimes in answering

is Roman Catholicism, and so I went back to research Martin

Luther and Charles Spurgeon and things like that, and they would call it a heresy, but when I

fast forward to now and I go and read the Kingdom of the Occult by Walter Martin, it's not in there.

So my question to you is, is Roman Catholicism another example of how unity does not equal

uniformity within the Christian community, or is it a derivative, or is it at its core a derivative from true

Christianity?

Nabil did say something about this.

It's like saying do you want to be axed or do you want to be hanged, you know?

I appreciate the question that you're raising.

You know it's interesting that whether you grew up in a land where there

are 330 million deities, you get a lot of questions like this as well.

So let me just be first, let me issue a disclaimer here briefly.

We as Christian apologists basically defend the biblical worldview

as we understand it, see it, and find it represented.

We know there are many people who may have some doctrinal diversities and

doctrinal differences from us, and we understand that.

So you've obviously heard me address this in some way because you use the very words I've

sometimes used, unity does not have to be uniformity, so something like that.

Let me put it to you in these words without getting specific and near the answer, and then

issuing one or two comments after that.

Number one, it is this.

It doesn't really matter what label one puts on an empty bottle.

If the bottle is empty, or if the bottle is mislabeled, then it is even very

dangerous.

The Bible reminds us who is a Christian.

It is one who really confesses in his mouth and believes in his heart that Jesus Christ Lord and that Christ has raised him

from the dead and so on.

When you get into this theological realm, there are many other additions that come in.

So if you ask me, what does it take to be a follower of Jesus Christ?

My answer may be very brief.

If you say to me, what does it take to belong to a particular denomination?

We may make it longer because the denomination may add its distinctives to find uniformity in that

group.

Then you may say, what does it take to teach in a theological institution?

Now you have to be even more protracted in your answer because as an instructor, you have to be

theologically very correct, crossing your T's and dotting your I's.

I know many people, whether they are in Protestantism or in Roman Catholicism, who are truly followers of

Jesus Christ.

There are many other aspects of their faith that they may not fully subscribe to.

That is an accretion across history that was added by the power of

leadership or by the power of group or sectarianism.

The fascinating thing is prior to the Reformation, we were all sort of divided into Eastern and Western at that

point and there were distinctives and hierarchy and then doctrinal distinctives emerged just as well.

So my answer to you is, what is a cult?

Let me define it for you in the simplest possible way.

A cult is generally, I think Walter, I actually, as you probably know, went on and

became the general editor of Walter Martin's book.

So in the last seven or eight years, that book really, the family asked me to bring the editing into it.

But I define a cult this way.

Anything that deviates from the historic person and work of Jesus

Christ or adds to his teaching and is generally at the instruction of

one individual who dictates that belief, it is almost certainly

cultic at that time.

Oftentimes groups can function as a hierarchy within themselves and an individual

heteronomically dictating the laws.

If that happens, then any one of us, whether in Protestantism or in Catholicism, can end up

becoming cultic by following just one particular brand of teaching and deviating from the historic person

and work of Jesus Christ.

My answer to you is very simple.

You follow Christ as best you know how as revealed in the word of God and serve him

and love him and honor him with your life, in your heart, and in your walk.

And that's what you preach to others as well.

God will be the ultimate judge of what groups went wrong in which direction.

I have a hard enough time dictating whether my family has been right in every way, leave alone historic

five, six hundred years of denominations.

So I'm not dodging the question.

I'm just telling you it is wise to be careful and not tar everybody with the same brush

in a particular group.

The faith that you have in Christ is a personal one and sometimes I know people who stay within groups in

order to bring changes within that group where they see doctrinally they have deviated or gone astray

from other belief systems.

It is possible that a person may be a good Christian and a bad Roman Catholic.

It could easily happen that

way.

To draw another question from the Twitter stream we had several.

All right that was Ravi Zacharias asking a question from someone in the

audience at a Veritas public event on whether or not the Catholic Church should be

included as a cult.

Although I was hoping that Ravi Zacharias would be more

specific and direct and clear.

He was very clear in my opinion.

I don't know what your thoughts are Paul.

He is very clear if you dissect what he said that Roman Catholicism

as a religion deserves to be under the heading of a cult.

Obviously we are always to take individuals on a one -by -one

basis because let's face it even many of the martyrs in

the Catholic Church like John Huss and others who were executed by Rome itself

they would have considered themselves Catholic.

So we can't just say that somebody is with certainty a lost or false

Christian because he may happen to identify himself as a Catholic.

The difference is what is he really trusting in for eternal life and is he really

believing and trusting in a biblical Christ and that Christ and his sacrifice alone

and so on.

But I think that what Ravi Zacharias said in his answer

really would militate against his presence at this event.

But if you could give us your own thoughts Paul.

Yes and no.

I think you could argue it either way because I think he's kind of given kind of two -sided answer.

His definition of a cult is pretty much Roman Catholicism to a T.

Being dictated by one man and things of that nature.

Or even a hierarchical group of men.

Which he also included because the Roman Catholic Church might claim that the magisterium involved.

Is more than one man.

But anyway yeah his conclusion at the end was well you know what could we do that's four or

five hundred years of theology.

Who am I to judge?

It's a little bit like that at the end while at the same time he's kind of like going well here's the definition

of a cult but we're never going to actually apply it to anybody.

You know it kind of kills me you know.

It's like you know obviously he's gone through Walter Merck like personally I wouldn't call Rome Catholicism a cult.

I used to call it a cult years ago.

I call it apostate.

Like I use the language of the Westminster Confession which is the synagogue of Satan.

Any former part of the visible church which is broken off and no longer confesses the

true religion no longer confesses the gospel.

I mean a lot of people would see formally at least that Roman Catholic Church was cut off from the visible church

at the Council of Trent.

Well before there was heresies and there was lots of problems obviously but formally anathematized in the gospel

officially.

And then you like pre -Trent and after Trent there's a big difference in the Roman Catholic Church.

You had I do believe elements of true believers.

There wasn't as much control.

For example in northern Italy for centuries I think was reading Jay Wiley's book that the Diocese

of Milan believed the true gospel until about the 10th century.

So I don't want to say like the word Catholic just means universal.

The Protestants were very much like no we're the true Catholics.

You know we're Catholics in terms of we believe

the Roman

Catholic Church is something else entirely.

So this is where like people like Dave Hunt went really wrong when he read a lot of reformers going

oh boy these people are Catholic because he's termed Catholic a lot.

You know it seemed like a dirty word and all this.

The word Holy Catholic Church is referring to the true church and things like that.

So we have to make that decision.

Now the thing about Ravi is yes if you're going with his definition of a cult he shouldn't be

there.

Or if he is going to go there he should rebuke it.

There's two options.

He can either decline it and write a blog against it why I'm not going.

I think you should do that.

Or he should go there and rebuke it and present the God.

I think I would have tried at times when I was doing the radio show on this that maybe some of these

people are going to shock me and they're going to come out and say this is false theology.

This is not a true church of Christ.

Different event.

It's obviously 14.

Ravi's not clear.

He is and he isn't clear on it.

But he it's quite clear he he treats it like another denomination.

And it's not unusual if you look at William Lane Craig as well.

They're different.

In that sphere William Lane Craig for example I think it was on CNN he said that Pope Benedict the

16th was a bulwark of the TV.

You can find that YouTube video when he was talking.

There was the amazing atheist and a few other people on there.

And a mere Christianity of C .S. Lewis.

As long as we have the ecumenical creeds for the first few centuries.

You want to say no no we want to be much more

broad.

You know certainly for a man with that much theological training and that much

time to dedicate it towards educating others.

He hasn't had the time to at least look into the Reformation.

And to that if he can't answer question on the Reformation why is anybody listening to him?

It comes to that point.

I mean if you can't as a Christian theologian and apologist talk on the most one of the

most basic issues the Reformation.

We're going as Martin Luther King said we're going back to a.

Free Reformation society almost.

Yeah the irony here is that Ravi Zacharias's ministry

seems to be almost entirely but not exclusively built

on distinguishing false eastern religions from

biblical Christianity.

And yet he is appearing at an event where the Pope

is participating via a jumbotron or however they did that.

I don't know if they actually.

Showed the video at the event but there was an invitation video.

Okay yes I saw that I saw that video.

Yeah but I couldn't find it actually being played at the event unless the video that I have which is about six

or seven hours long.

I couldn't find it in there so I think they might have maybe dropped it at some stage maybe been too unpopular.

But I just really want to make some people might be thinking oh

maybe there's a couple of people they might not have known it was really endorsed by the Pope.

But at about the two hour mark I was playing today and discovered actually there was a man by the name of Matteo

Calisi and he's a professor he worked in the Vatican and he was presented on stage as working

on the three Popes and he prayed in Italian of how wonderful I'm kind of paraphrasing now

that Catholics Pentecostals etc worshipping.

On one side they were going okay it's wonderful we're all worshipping together and then another two seconds later Nick

Hall we're not asking you to compromise we're just people have their differences and all this

kind.

Of thing.

Well it's but the thing that I was going to say is that the irony that even to

participate in an event where the Pope was clearly identifying himself in great

sympathy with by doing an advertisement for it and telling people to attend it

is that that Pope and the Catholic Church since Vatican II has

claimed that those within the religions that Ravi Zacharias has spent a

lifetime or nearly a lifetime ever ever since becoming a Christian has spent his

his career exposing the deadly spiritual errors in these groups

that the the Church of Rome has now put their seal of approval on.

That is the the irony here and Nabeel

Qureshi who is also there he actually spoke years ago at the church where I'm a member exposing

the evils and the falsehoods of Islam.

He was a Muslim before coming to Christ and yet you have a

Pope and the Church itself through their catechism since Vatican II saying

that Muslims adore the same one true God that the Catholic Church

does so that's where the inconsistency really is I

think dangerous because it confuses the masses and no pun intended

on the masses there but it really even

unwittingly if you want to give the very best spin on it these folks are

unconsciously giving their seal of approval on a religion that

preaches and teaches another gospel than that of the Apostle.

Paul and that of Jesus Christ.

Yeah and another thing as well with Ravi it's not in a complete vacuum either.

I think it was back in 2011 he was giving a question and answer session on homosexuality and

during that time he was talking about people who have the

predisposition towards homosexuality but refrain from doing it.

He gave the example of a man by the name of Henry Nowen.

Henry Nowen he called one of the greatest saints in modern memory or words that affect him he called him one of the

greatest saints.

Henry Nowen was a Roman Catholic priest a mystic and also a universalist so

I don't know if Ravi knew that about him but it certainly...

He shouldn't have.

Given them that accolade if he didn't know about him.

Yeah and he's openly a Roman Catholic priest.

And a universalist and I mean it's again it might seem like it's in

you see one of the things I was most surprised about was Nabil Qureshi being there but I think because

Ravi is such a major.

Influence on him.

He actually works for Ravi Zechariah's ministries now.

Oh yeah and he's a.

Mentor towards him and I don't know if it's really we're seeing Nabil

kind of accept this or he's afraid.

I don't know like sometimes you look up to somebody so much and he trusts somebody's judgments so much.

I guess I'm going to try and give him the benefit of the doubt.

He seems like a lovely guy however this is sending the wrong message.

I mean people bled and died for rejecting the Roman Catholic

mass and now we're kind of getting to a point where we're

afraid of hurting somebody's feelings.

The martyrs weren't rounded up and saying you know

they stood and they said okay we reject transubstantiation.

It's in a lot of like Nicholas Ridley's works and things like that but now we don't seem to care

about the sacrament.

The things that were centrally important, the nature of the mass, the blasphemous

nature of the mass were kind of like well you know and there was even a kind of a bit of a joke during one part of

Together 2016.

I think it was a man by the name of Bishop Roberts.

I haven't heard of him before but he was, I think it was him anyway, well some

of us were and he was giving all these trivial examples but we're all

united in Jesus.

I was like denominational differences are not just the clothing.

You know one person wears, I suppose it's like you know maybe a reference to head coverings.

I'm not too sure.

This is the gospel of Jesus Christ.

We're making trivial, light -hearted, make it sound like

you know we're just we're separating over bigoted.

Differences.

Yeah and I don't want to dwell too much on folks

like Nabeel and Ravi right now because they're not here to defend themselves

or even just give their own side of this issue but I can say that it was

puzzling to say the least and obviously we have to pray that

men of such great intellect and who have been a gift to the body of Christ for

so long will use much greater discernment in the future.

Perhaps if their peers will be more directly

critiquing them you know where they can have actually personal access to these men

there might be some better outcome of that but I will definitely pray

about that.

We do have several listeners waiting to ask questions from different parts of the country

and world so we hope to get to them right after this break and if you'd like to

join them with your own questions for Paul Flynn our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

We are going to switch gears as a main topic for the second hour.

We're going to be discussing the doctrines of sovereign grace and in particular their

existence today in the Republic of Ireland and

although we can of course still receive questions from you on our our previous topic that's

completely fine and we look forward to hearing from you.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen for the full two hours today.

Our guest today is Paul Flynn.

And he is the founder and director of Megiddo Films, Megiddo Radio and

Megiddo TV.

And we are discussing now the doctrines of sovereign grace and in particular,

how they are spreading and being embraced in the Republic of Ireland

today.

The first hour, we were discussing the event that recently took place in Washington,

D .C. called Together 2016.

It's also going under the name Reset 2016.

And we were addressing the unbiblical level of ecumenism that

was being participated in by evangelicals at this

event, which had the blessing of Pope Francis on it publicly.

And as it turned out, I may have misspoke because it seems that Pope Francis

was advertising the event through a video, but not necessarily

teaching anything there at the event through a jumbo screen or anything of that

nature.

One of the reasons why it's difficult to nail these things down is that the websites have very limited

detail on them.

It's almost like a cryptic kind of a thing.

And even before the event was held, I could not find anywhere on their website

what a church or what participants, especially what leaders and pastors, must

believe in order for them to participate.

There was no statement of faith anywhere or anything like that that I could find.

And if there is something like that, the average person I don't think was able to easily

access that type of information.

But our email address, if you'd like to join us on the air, is

chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Why don't we just take, before we go into our discussion of the Doctrines of Grace, Paul, let's take a few

questions from listeners in the audience.

We have David in Ada, Ohio, who says or asks, what do you

think of the following list of books?

The Cult of the Virgin by Elliot Miller and Kenneth Samples, Mary Another Redeemer by James

White, The Roman Catholic Controversy by James Wright, The

Reformation's Conflict with Rome by Robert Raymond, Reasoning from the Scriptures with

Catholics by Ron Rhodes, and Roman Catholicism by Lorraine Bettner.

Well, before Paul speaks, I can say that I know of

all of these individuals, and I personally know, as a

friend, both Kenneth Samples and James White.

I have read all of their books that are listed here, and I believe that they

should be widely read, and they, I believe, are excellent books.

The Cult of the Virgin by Elliot Miller and Kenneth Samples is no longer in print, to my knowledge.

You can get it used in various places.

It's an excellent book, especially Kenneth Samples' section on the

Apparitions of Mary.

One thing that's interesting is that a lot of people, a lot of Roman Catholics that I know,

when I told them about that book, they got very upset by saying that it was cruel

and mean -spirited of Kenneth Samples to write a book titled The Cult of the Virgin,

and the thing is, that's actually a Roman Catholic phrase.

Roman Catholics themselves, in the Vatican and in

scholastic arenas within Rome, use the phrase The

Cult of the Virgin when they themselves describe the specific adoration and devotion

that they give to Mary.

But it's a very good book, and James White's Mary, Another Redeemer is excellent.

It's a very brief book that I believe just came out on Kindle.

The Roman Catholic controversy is superb, in my opinion.

I highly respect Robert Raymond, but I haven't read his book, Reformation's Conflict with Rome.

I know of Ron Rhodes and have a lot of sympathy with his beliefs, although he is

not, to my knowledge, theologically reformed, but it doesn't mean that he's wrong on

everything.

And I do remember enjoying his participation years ago on the Bible Answer Man.

Lorraine Bettner, of course, is a great hero of Reformed

history, Reformation history, and Lorraine Bettner is a man, just to

let you know.

And I had a joke one time when I was introducing James

White at one of the debates.

I said, don't listen to the false rumors that I'm a male chauvinist.

Some of my greatest heroes of the faith are such great women as Lorraine

Bettner and Meredith Klein and Kim Riddlebarger.

And I said, oh, wait a minute, those are guys with women's names.

I got really confused one time when I was looking at a footnote and it said, Meredith was a Klein?

Yes.

Was it in Westminster Theological Seminary?

Yes.

I got so confused that one time, I was like, that's a guy's name there.

Well, Lorraine Bettner is a great 20th century

teacher from Princeton and wrote a classic work on

Roman Catholicism and just went home to be with the Lord

in 1990.

But that's my opinion on those books listed.

Do you have your own thoughts on that, Paul?

I'd have to go back.

I haven't read any of those books, I don't think.

I have Roman Catholicism on my shelf, but I haven't read it yet.

I've read some of Lorraine Bettner already and I love what I've read so far, so he seems to be

excellent.

And if you're looking for a book that's excellent on Roman Catholicism, one book I really, if you want to add

to that and another book to read is a book called, I'm just looking at my shelf here, it's called Catholicism,

East of Eden, by a friend of mine called, by the name of Richard Bennett.

Yes, he's a very good friend of mine as well.

Yeah, I love the book.

It's kind of, it's written a nice balance between being scholarly and not kind of

completely losing you either.

I don't know, he's got that kind of, because he was a Roman Catholic for so

long.

And a priest.

He was a priest and he has spoken, I have

arranged a number of speaking engagements for him when he was still a lot healthier and able to

travel, and have interviewed him a number of times.

And I ask that those of you listening, please pray for Brother Richard Bennett because his health

is very poor.

And we just pray that the Lord would continue to bless

his ministry and give him good health and strength while he is still among us.

But I know with certainty, whatever the Lord's will is with his case,

that Richard will certainly be in glory with Christ.

He is a dear, dear brother in the Lord and I thank God for his friendship.

And bereanbeacon .org is his website.

Bereanbeacon .org, B -E -R -E -A -N -B -E -A -C -O -N .org.

So anybody listening who wants to find out more about Richard Bennett can go

to that website.

And we hope that Richard

gets restored to good health so we can get him back on Iron Sharpens Iron as a guest soon.

And we do have another listener, Tyler in Mastic Beach,

Long Island.

Why is it that many Reformed Christians are quick to rebuke Roman Catholic theology when

Arminian teaching is almost identical model of

synergistic soteriology?

The Synod of Dort were not accepting of the Arminian view

and declared it as heretical.

Well, if you'd like to start there, Paul.

I think it depends on the Arminian.

If it's an inconsistent, highly inconsistent Arminian.

But I know I would say Arminianism is a road to Rome, but I wouldn't say it's identical to

Roman Catholicism.

They're both synergistic.

If you take consistent Arminianism, I do believe it's the false gospel, but I stress the

say consistent.

I suppose if you go far enough, it becomes Pelagianism if you're going to be really, really consistent.

Like with Charles Finney.

Yeah, if you believe that it depends on man's will, and that is the deciding factor, and you really get down to the nuts and

bolts of it, and you really believe that, then you're believing a false gospel.

But if you talk to the average Arminian, they believe it's all of Christ, but they don't really understand what the

issue with free will is.

They say, well, I'm not a zombie.

I know this.

I'm not like some kind of robot being pulled around by strings, but more

of a straw man the actual information, maybe an emotional

straw man of what's really hyper -Calvinism that they've rejected.

So I think when the Reformed person, when

Catholic, it's because the Roman Catholic is actively saying, if they

properly understand Roman Catholic theology now, if they're like an apologist or something, that it's not all of grace,

clearly, and that man after the grace of baptism must

maintain himself by his free will, and that he needs an offer

from himself.

Like, basically, the grace of God is not sufficient.

So it's an open attack on the gospel, whereas the Arminianism, while consistently

taken,

they're like, I was an Arminian for years after I was saved, and so you have to be

people where they're at.

And the difference is, many of them are genuine believers in Christ.

They haven't got all their ducks in a row yet, maybe, and if they're going in the right direction, we should encourage them.

But if you're a Roman Catholic believing Roman Catholic theology, you don't know Christ.

And the great heroes of the Reformed faith,

from Charles Spurgeon going all the way back to

Calvin himself, they did not insist that all of

these tenets of the Reformed faith be believed in order for salvation to be present.

And Charles Spurgeon, although sometimes Charles Spurgeon wrote with such

vehement disgust over Arminian heresies, you might think that he thought

they were lost.

When you read other things that he wrote about Arminians of history, like John Wesley and so

on, you see that he viewed him as a brother in Christ.

So we have to be careful that our theology doesn't puff us up and make us arrogant.

And when Reformed theology is intended to do the exact opposite of

that, it's to humble us to dust and attribute all to

God, every grace, every benefit, in addition to not only our salvation,

which is the supreme gift, but every other good and beautiful gift is

from God, and that he is in sovereign control over everything, including our understanding

of this theology.

So I think we have to be very careful when we dismiss brothers who

have not yet come to understand these things.

And at the same time, you may have an Arminian brother in Christ who understands another aspect of

theology in a much deeper and more accurate way than you do,

because there are other things to be learned from the scriptures other than the five points of Calvinism.

I think there's a massive difference between Wesley, who railed against Calvinism, or, well, Finney's even in a

different category again, or like a Dave Hunt or something near the end, which was really sad, I think, because I

read a lot of his books, and I liked a lot of his books, and then studying a lot of his claims, I was like, whoa, you know, just

way off there.

But I think he sincerely thought he was understanding it properly, but went way off in a different

direction, but I think that's just a tragedy.

But I think we have to kind of realize that we have to meet people where they're at.

Like, the Church is not where it was in the 17th century.

Not that we detrude at all change, but we should, if you go back to Calvin's

writings, there's a big difference.

Calvin's writings, he's trying to reach a lot of people who aren't really, well, grounded.

That's where he wrote the Institutes

of the Christian Religion, realizing, you know, maybe we've been blessed in a certain way with different teaching,

books, etc., but I think there's a big, massive difference between the honest, sincere Arminian who's going that direction, might

take some time, and the Arminian who's actively railing against,

to the point where he's blaspheming God.

That's, I think we need to make a strong distinction between those two groups.

Yes, in fact, one difference might be even

how deep a knowledge someone has over the theology

and yet still clings to it and declares it.

I don't know if you've ever seen the Amazing Grace DVD.

It's a documentary series on the doctrines of grace.

Amazing Grace, the History and Theology of Calvinism.

But there is a Nazarene professor

who actually went to the lengths of teaching that,

and he was basically saying this in anger with his fellow Arminians for

using the term substitutionary atonement.

And he was saying that you cannot be an Arminian and believe that, because if

Christ died as your substitute, that means you're saved, and we who are

Arminian believe many for whom Christ died will be in hell.

So therefore, he can't be a substitute, and he's right, actually, but he's on the wrong side

of the theological issue, because he is right in saying that you can't

claim Christ as a substitute if he died for every single person and most are going to be

damned.

But the sad case is that he believes that Christ is not our substitute.

So that's where you have an example of somebody who's in serious damnable heresy,

who is an Arminian, because he actually knows the theology very well,

and he is logically consistent with it, as opposed to

Again, I have to be very careful about this.

You know, when I think a lot of Reformers are saying, you know, like, Arminians are not a gospel, we're talking about consistent

Arminianism here, and a lot of people we'll meet are inconsistent in how they apply it.

And often when you explain Calvinism to them, they'll go, oh, that's what it is?

Oh, that's not - oh, I can't believe that.

So you have to be just careful, because often they'll be given straw men, false definitions of

what free will is, you know, the difference between free agency and free will and things like that, that

they mistake.

And one of the biggest mistakes is people think that moral inability or

moral, you know, told depravity in a moral sense, they take it as a natural

inability.

Jonathan Edwards wrote about it, that if you see, the thing is, if we think of told depravity as, I

can't obey the laws of God in a natural sense, we'll think, well, how can I be held responsible for this?

But it's not a natural inability that the doctrine is talking about, it's talking about a moral inability.

We don't want to do it, that's the issue.

Yes.

We're it's like, the best analogy I can give is, like, a horrible stench, maybe like a

septic tank or something.

You won't go into it.

You're just railing against it, it's the most disgusting thing.

I think that repentance is like the vomit of the soul.

You absolutely gut -wrenchingly hate something.

You either love your sin or you hate it.

Wow, I actually love that line, I never heard that line before.

Repentance is the vomit of the soul.

That's pretty intense, but very accurate.

Yeah, I think it's in his little book on repentance.

Well, thank you very much.

Let's see, who was that?

That was David in Ada, Ohio.

Thank you very much for oh, and that actually was the last question was from Tyler in Mastic

Beach.

Thank you, Tyler, for the question.

Well, the doctrines of sovereign grace, something that unites both an eye very clearly,

otherwise known as Reformed theology, also known as Calvinism,

also known as the doctrines of grace or the doctrines of free grace, which is not to be

confused with a more modern movement of Christians who identify

their theology as free grace, who reject the necessity of repentance.

We're not talking about those Christians.

We're talking about not only completely unmerited favor that God bestows upon

His elect, but also ill -merited favor.

It's not just that we didn't deserve to be rescued by God and He gave

us this grace and rescued us anyway.

It's that we deserved the opposite of salvation.

We deserved hell because we have violated all of His commandments and have lived in rebellion

against Him until He, by His mercy, got a hold of us and rescued us from

our sin and the penalty thereof.

But when did you, in your journey, come to

finally embrace the teachings we call Calvinism?

And I know that you were raised in a Roman Catholic family, as were most people in the Republic of Ireland,

and you've already given your testimony in detail.

But if you could give us a very abbreviated version of your testimony and bring us to

the point where you came to embrace Reformed theology.

Sure.

I remember for the first couple of years I was in fundamentalist church.

I came across people who claimed to be Calvinists, kind of what I would call

Calvinistic in theory, but very Arminian in terms of how we live.

We might have a theoretical understanding of what it is to be a

Calvinist is so much more than, oh, I can talk about the tulip for a couple of minutes.

It's how do you apply it to your life?

There's a very good book Joel Beekie actually wrote on the issue called, I think the subtitle is called, An Introduction to

Calvinism.

I can't remember the...

Oh, Living for God's Glory.

I think that's what the title is.

But anyway, so I remember over the years it was finally, I think about the end of 2012 when I finally

went, okay, I agree with all of this, but it was a very gradual process.

And I remember I had, it was, I think it was my second film at the time,

and I kind of came in contact with the writings of the Reformers here and there.

The second film was, I would call it A Chaos and Confusion in a Modern Church, and a lot of it had to do with the charismatic movement in the history

of it.

And I wanted to quote from everybody from every sort of background.

Calvin, I quoted from dispensationalists in the 19th century.

I wanted to show this was not my particular denomination saying this.

This is the entirety of church history up until about 100 years ago, when everything kind of got turned on its head

a little bit.

So little by little, it was very, very gradual.

And I remember just kind of, you know, looking at articles here and there on told depravity and going, yeah, man is completely dead.

He's not sick.

He's dead.

But it took me a while before the dominoes started to hit other places.

I didn't really fully, I saw, okay, the Bible definitely talks about election.

But, you know, I didn't really fully understand the debate.

And I kind of, for a while, thought it was like silly philosophy.

Like I probably view now, you know, the debates about superlapsarian and interlapsarian.

I kind of leave those alone.

But I don't know if you ever got involved in that.

It's kind of a fun topic.

And, you know, I remember I had one view, and then my pastor talked me around again.

But anyway, but I kind of, I just kind of didn't see it as important as it was.

And now I do.

You know, when Calvin, not Calvin, when Spurgeon said Calvinism is the gospel,

he didn't mean, you know, that you go up to a lost person and say, do you believe in told depravity?

Do you believe in sovereign election?

It wasn't that.

What he was saying was that the way you preach to a dead sinner, you're not treating him like we're

going to appeal to use entertainment.

We're going to use the right source of means like Charles Finney or somebody like that.

We're going to try and tickle, you know, tickle your ears in order to get you to make the right decision.

So what he's saying there is, you see, because sovereign election, we don't know who the elect are.

We're not going to go around saying to people, unless we're hyper Calvinist or something like that, saying to people,

you're the elect, you're not indiscriminate,

share the message.

It was like dominoes.

I think the really, really

despised was the carnal Christian doctrine.

This doctrine where you can be a Christian, you make a decision and no

fruit to the

saints kind of kept up.

And that

was the last domino.

That's interesting because that's usually, that's usually not the order.

Yeah, I went from being a Roman Catholic to an Arminian without knowing I was an

Arminian.

I just knew that when I was hearing Calvinism taught initially, I hated it and thought it was insane

and bristled against it, declared I would never believe in it.

And then after reading a booklet titled George Whitfield's letter to John

Wesley on election, the Lord took the scripture that Whitfield presented to Wesley.

And he just opened up my eyes to it.

And I initially embraced it as truth, but said it's horrible and I hate it.

But then within a bad, I don't know, a month or two, I loved the doctrines

because it showed me the intensity of the love that God has

for me.

And that his son's death on Calvary was not some vain thing where he was saying,

I really hope I save everybody.

It was Chris Arnzen, I am redeeming you right now.

I'm receiving the father's wrath that you deserve.

And I am atoning for your sin with my blood.

And this is a done deal.

This is, when he said it is finished, he might as well have said mission accomplished.

And my faith and my salvation became very intensely personal at

that point when I realized how beautiful these teachings are.

And so in Ireland, everybody knows that the Republic of Ireland

would be in its majority Roman Catholic, although I couldn't tell you

if that is mainly nominal.

What would be the, in your opinion, from what you've witnessed all your life living in

the Republic of Ireland, would you say that the majority of people seem to be purely nominal or is

there a lot of deeply religious people there?

Or is that just a minority?

There's a minority now.

It has been a massive change in like the last 20, 30 years.

And I don't know if it's necessarily to do with a lot of scandals that have happened in the church.

There's been swings and roundabouts like this in church history.

They've kind of become a lot more atheistic, agnostic, but will go

to christenings and do the weddings in the Catholic church.

Or trimmings.

They'll still want the days out.

Things like that.

The things that I awkwardly have to say no to constantly in my family because I have lots of nieces and

nephews who would love to see a lot more.

But it's kind of, we don't really believe it.

I remember when I was growing up, my mother was a lot more religious.

And as time's gone on, you know, a little bit here, a little bit there.

But that's, our story is not unusual.

It's kind of like that all over the place.

We would have went, it would have been quite common for some of these parents to go to Lent and

go to Mass every morning of Lent.

That would have been quite common, I think, what, 20, 30 years ago.

Not that everybody did it.

But now it's kind of like, you're seen as smarter if you don't go.

So it's, you're kind of seen as, well, you're still believing in Athenians.

We're kind of quite better than that.

It's, we've got an educated, we've got a university generation

that has come out with a degree in Ireland and thinks it's educated.

It's really not, but that's another issue, maybe.

All right, we have to go to our final break.

This is the last commercial break that we are going to have.

And if you'd like to join us, please send an email as soon as you can to chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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And whether you're Roman Catholic, whether you are Protestant, whether you are neither, whether you are

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With a question, and you can remain anonymous if you choose to.

Don't go away.

We will be right back with Paul Flynn and our discussion of the doctrines of sovereign grace in Ireland in the

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Zarnes and before we return to our guest Paul Flynn, one of our sponsors has an

announcement that they want you to take advantage of if you live in

Maine or if you have the ability to get to Maine by

train, plane, or automobile.

This week, August 4th through the 6th, Fellowship Conference New

England is having their conference at the Deering Center Community Church in

Portland, Maine.

And that's, as I said, August 4th through the 6th.

That starts this Thursday and ends this Saturday.

And the speakers include my friend Pastor Mac Tomlinson, who is the

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And he is one of the speakers and organizers of this event.

Other speakers include Charles Leiter, Jesse Barrington, and Michael

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And I can assure you that at this event you are going to hear the true

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And there's going to be joyous worship there and great fellowship.

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call 207 -423 -7652, 207 -423 -7652 for more information on Fellowship Conference New England.

And now we are returning to our discussion with Paul Flynn of

Megiddo Films, Megiddo Radio, and Megiddo Television on the doctrines of grace.

And as I have said before on this program, the way that I summarize what those teachings

are, if you want to take it to its very core, is that God

alone saves sinners because sinners cannot even help save themselves.

And I don't know if you are comfortable with that definition or summary, Paul, but it seems to me

that Arminians and Roman Catholics are at one level of

disagreement with that core definition of the doctrines of grace.

Arminians believe that man certainly must help to save himself because

he, through his free will, which he innately possesses at birth,

is able to make the choice which pleases God

to believe upon Christ.

And the Roman Catholic takes it further and says that man must actually, through not only

ritual, rites, ceremony, and deeds, but he

must attain eternal life through that kind of cooperation, that level of cooperation, but he must continue,

in some fashion, in cooperating with Christ and his grace

throughout his whole life in order to enter into heaven, which, of course, the whole

system of Rome is muddied and made more baffling and confusing when their

modern catechisms say that non -Christians can go to heaven.

So it really makes little sense.

But if you could comment with your own thoughts on what I just said.

Sure.

That's one way you could describe it.

Another way is like we, without the grace of Christ, or without the grace of God, are partial

Lazaruses.

We're dead corpses, morally.

And the way to picture that, again, is not, again, that we are physically enabled.

I was talking to somebody yesterday, and natural inability would be, I don't have legs.

If the command is for me to run across the room and I can't do it, then it's not my fault that I can't do it.

I don't have legs.

Somebody's probably going to come up with a smart comment, like maybe you could use your hands, but anyway.

There's always going to be one, but anyway.

But the whole idea is you don't want to, right?

It's like if you run across the room, all your might.

Again, it's that idea that we are, as soon as Adam fell, he was

dead.

Not physically, he was dead later physically, but dead spiritually.

From the moment he sinned, what did Adam and Eve do?

They hid from God.

They blamed other people besides themselves, and that showed the difference.

Adam and Eve were righteous before then.

They enjoyed God.

They worshipped God.

And then it all changed.

As soon as they fell into sin, they followed the particular patterns.

See, because one of the biggest issues is, whether it's the hyper -Calvinists or the Armenians, they

say, well, if they're not able to come to Christ, they're not responsible for their actions.

And this is how they almost watered down the law in order to make this consistent.

Because you would have to say, well, we're commanded to love the Lord, our God, with all our heart, mind, soul, and

strength.

Can we do that for a single second in a perfect way?

No, we cannot.

We can never love God in the way Christ loved.

We can never do that.

We've never done that.

Like Paul Washer would say, you know, my greatest deed, never

at standard, you know, even our greatest deed, but filthy rags, as Isaiah says.

So we're completely, even our good works after salvation is accepted by

by faith, by the blood of Jesus Christ.

You know, it's through the mediator.

The problem with really against

this truly depraved we are, and when we grow in grace, I don't want to be patronizing to Armenian brothers,

I'm sure, better than I do.

If you look at the martyrs, I was reading there recently, a top lady's works

showing the foundation of the Church of England, you know, there was a big battle whether the Church of England was really Armenian

out of its foundation or Calvinist.

And he goes through not just the Church of England, but prior to that, and people killed at the stake, and if you see

their testimonies, they're talking about the elect.

They're talking about God's free grace.

They didn't shy away from this language.

It wasn't like, oh, that's Calvinistic language, you better hide it.

And it was the Roman Catholics during the 16th century in particular, where one of the

doctrines they railed against was the doctrine of election.

One of the doctrines they railed against was the doctrine of free will, and that would distinguish you whether you were a

Roman Catholic or a Protestant.

You go to the Jantanists in the 16th century, forced out of the Roman Catholic Church, because they sided with

Augustine.

Yeah, and let me go to a classic text from the scriptures.

The Apostle Paul really annihilates any notion of

men having a free will to, in and of

themselves, without the aid of a regenerating work

by the Holy Spirit in their hearts, to come to Christ freely in a saving

fashion.

Romans 3, starting at verse 10 and going through

verse 18, the Apostle Paul says, as it is written,.

There is none righteous, not even one.

There is none who understands.

There is none who seeks for God.

All have turned aside.

Together they have become useless.

There is none who does good.

There is not even one.

Their throat is an open grave.

With their tongues they keep deceiving.

The poison of asps is under their lips.

Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.

Their feet are swift to shed blood.

Destruction and misery are in their paths.

And the path of peace they have not known.

There is no fear of God before their eyes.

That's obviously a description of man in his natural state in the

fall, after the fall of Adam, man who has inherited the sin of Adam.

And we also have Romans 8, another word from the

Apostle Paul, who teaches, starting at verse 1,.

Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin

and death.

For what the law could not do, weak as it was through

the flesh, God did, sending his own

Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin.

He condemned sin in the flesh so that the requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not

walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but

those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.

For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace.

Because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God, for it does not subject

itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so.

And those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

So if you believe that a man from his birth has the innate ability

to believe in Christ in a saving fashion, we're not talking about intellectual belief here, in a

saving fashion, a genuine trust in Christ and love for Christ, then you're

disagreeing with the Apostle Paul because he says that those who are in the

flesh cannot please God and therefore if believing in Christ pleases God, if

repentance pleases God, a man in his natural sinful state cannot do that.

And therefore the Reformers rescued these truths in the

16th century Reformation and they were buried under a sea of

works, righteousness, heresies that the Church of Rome had accumulated and those who

were the Reformers were not inventing new things they were bringing to light the truth of the scriptures.

And in Ireland it is well known, Paul, that there was such

great conflict for so long between those who were

defending British rule over Ireland and those in Ireland

desiring their freedom as a people and the whole political aspect of this struggle

and this conflict really was couched under the

disguise of a religious issue and the

gospel really got clouded in this whole circumstance where people

basically equated those Roman Catholics who were Irish equated those who believed

in the Protestant gospel as being just their political enemies and therefore everything they

believed must be wrong.

So how has the Republic of Ireland changed in its atmosphere

in relation to Protestant theology as opposed to British

politics?

In some ways, yes.

In some ways, no.

At its core, if you go back long enough, it is a religious issue.

You know, really just kind of the way I would describe it I don't know if I've picked this up from old history books but

used Ireland historically as a battering ram against the British Empire much like a kind of a

Poland of the West.

So you had, you know, Rome and I think to this day still sees

London as the center of Protestantism and then it falls in whatever way

politically because there's different safeguards that the British crown has that a Roman Catholic cannot

ascend to the crown and things like that.

But if you go back long enough, back about 100 years you know, books written 1914 before

Irish independence and things like that you see a lot of writers, especially those who would be

Christians saying the problem with Ireland was never kind of British, you know British

oppression and things like that.

It was a sin issue and there was a lot of rebellion a lot of trouble.

The side of Dublin, which was called the Pale for quite a long time

the British pumped a lot of money into the Dublin area trying to, I think, like what they're doing trying to do in Northern

Ireland at the moment trying to pump a lot of money to solve these spiritual problems with kind of making people happy, giving

people jobs and hoping that that will make everything okay.

The fundamental issues are still there but they're bubbling under the surface.

And it's probably been, you know, in a human point of view

better than it has been in a long time especially up in Northern Ireland.

But if you go back long enough from what the little I studied of history it's basically

Rome trying to foment hundreds of years

for example, Oliver Cromwell is seen as a sort of a Hitler figure in the Republic of

Ireland.

You go anywhere else and study him and he's seen as a defender of the Waldensian Christian.

We've kind of got this...

We've been kind of fed through the system of

lies that I'm gonna have to just call it out in that.

So we've kind of in the South, we've developed a massive... should have done everything

perfect over the years.

But from a person who's

grown things...

I remember one time I read an old document what

the Jesuits were writing about, you know rounding up Protestants and slaughtering them and

things like that.

Forties, for example, just rounded up and killed.

And history has been changed massively.

You know, the number's been down to, you know now they report five.

It is a religious thing, but the problem is if you go back the last 30, 40 years and I think that's what everybody knows about most of the people

fighting in the UDF and all those guys if you talked to enough people they say they would have never darkened the door of a church.

The fighting was... but never taught

them into faith and they

not justifying either side.

But this goes back a long way and, you know, even the South was shown that the Dublin

government even funded a lot of terrorism going up north.

A lot of it's been kind of, you know people talk about it now and it's like, ah but I think for

this country to heal it needs the truth.

It needs the truth of the gospel.

It needs to also... as an island, I think we really need to study our history and I'm not saying I'm the source

of problems.

We, you know, sadly even this happens in Christian circles and these are nice Christians I'm not trying to get in their case or anything

but, you know, if you can't kind of you go down this path of kind of victimhood like, you know,

like in a democratic party if we're black, everybody hates those kind of things it's just going to be a

very, very... if you think everybody's against you kind of thing, this kind of...

just say, look, love your neighbor as yourself reach the gospel whether they're English or Scottish or whatever

I think we need to study our history.

I've broken down in tears.

I... a lot of my prejudices against the British over the years have been wrong.

So today, is there still a lot of bristling

and distrust when a Christian in the Republic of Ireland actually specifically

identifies himself as a Protestant?

I know years ago when there was more conflict actually going on there

you... I spoke with theologically reformed Christians who

lived in the Republic of Ireland who specifically chose not to describe themselves as

Protestant.

Not because they were hiding from anything but they just thought it added more heat than

light to the discussion and they didn't want the issues to be

derailed basically by people thinking that this was a political issue.

What about today?

Can you... do you identify yourself specifically as Protestant?

And what kind of reaction are you getting in this day and age?

Yeah, I do say I'm Protestant because I try...

I understand I'm not saying anything for people who choose not to use the title but I kind of... I won't run from the title

because it's a title that goes right back for hundreds and hundreds of years and it's nothing

to do with the Northern Irish totals and things like that.

It's a... you know, it's a...

I mean, you know, you could...

I think if you go far enough you could, you know, disparage the word Christian.

You know, you could say, oh, well, the Christians were involved in crusades and all this kind of stuff so you could, you know, the...

or, you know, the Inquisition and you explain what that means and things like that.

So, okay, I think we shouldn't, you know, kind of be proud about oh, I'm a Protestant.

I come from Protestant heritage and trust in that but I won't run from the title either but again,

I'm not judging anybody who chooses not to use it to have their own reasons and I think there is a certain level of we should be all things to all

men as in, if you're reaching a Roman Catholic individually now I'm talking and just say,

you know, they're maybe a former IRA they've got an IRA family.

Just don't bring it up just don't need to bring it up.

I'm a Protestant just give them the gospel so there's times when we should be sensitive and we should kind of go well,

this fact isn't needed.

You don't need to kind of go there's an IRA poster on the wall.

You don't need to get into a big political discussion.

You need to talk about how to date and trespass and maybe they'll see that some

of the things...

Amen, and for those of you listening who think that Saint Patrick was a Roman

Catholic you're being misled.

He was a Christian in the 5th century and in the 400s there was

no truly Roman Catholic church there was no papacy there was no

teaching of the propitiatory sacrifice of the mass and there

was no full -blown widespread worship of Mary

or even veneration as the Catholic church chooses to describe that.

We know that it's worship because it clearly contains all the elements of worship.

And you could go on and on and on.

Saint Patrick is a great hero of the Christian faith and he lived prior to there being a

church of Rome.

But if you could conclude over the next three minutes with what you most want etched

in the hearts and minds of our listeners today.

I guess just I'll look for the gospel if nothing else.

I don't want it to kind of get kind of...

I think sometimes people can become Calvinist or just kind of.

You know something clicks in the doctrines of grace and they think oh I've arrived.

You're going to be studying the gospel for the rest of your life.

And if you stop studying the gospel there's something wrong on your walk.

We don't like kind of go here's the gospel we're done and then go on to deeper things like eschatology.

The gospel isn't on every page.

It's we need to grow in the knowledge of that truth.

We need to grow in the knowledge of how sinful we are.

That way we're more humble.

That way we go to our lost co

-workers or wherever they are and be brokenhearted because we'd realize we'd be in

exactly the same place they are but for the grace of God.

Now by election it should humble us.

Election is not there to go.

Oh I am so wonderful God picked me.

This is not the point of it.

The whole point of it is if God did not choose you you would still be in your sin.

And if God didn't choose anybody no one would come to the gospel if

God did not pay.

If it was a potential atonement that doesn't pay for anyone's sin.

So the whole point of Calvinism and people talk.

You know like Spurgeon said Calvinism is the gospel is.

I want people to take away a love for love a full

deep appreciation for what God did.

When God Jesus Christ was God manifest in the flesh came and bore the sin all of

his people upon a hill he created.

If we get our heads around that we will be so full of joy we'll be more full

of joy of what he has done on our behalf.

You know when we're first saved we only get a tiny bit but we see a little bit of it.

I want Christians to see more of it.

And I want those who are not Christians to be brought to their knees when they see how truly wretched they are and how

merciful our God is.

Amen.

And obviously since those who are Calvinists agree with our Arminian

brethren that there is a hell we believe that the only

conclusion that we can have is that God bestows his grace

on a certain people that he has chose that he has chosen before the foundations of the world

who he loved.

And yet these people whom he loved were unlovable they did nothing to earn

the love or grace of the father and therefore the son died

for them and them alone.

Which is why you have heaven being populated

by sinners saved by grace and hell being populated by sinners

who do not have that grace bestowed upon them sinners who died in their sin.

And if you believe in a hell you cannot believe that God is worthy of

100 of the praise for salvation if you

believe that there are people in hell.

And that's the only way that it can be logically and consistently deduced.

And I thank God for embracing the doctrines of grace and for his bringing them

into my life.

Thank you so much Paul Flynn.

And I know that your website is megiddofilms .org.

M -e -g -i -d -d -o -films .org.

We look forward for you to.

We look forward to your return to the program.

Thank you Chris for having me on.

And I hope everybody remembers for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater savior than you are a

sinner.

We look forward to hearing from you and your questions next time on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.