Can Women Preach? and the Word of Faith | Apologetics Live 0035

Opening Technical Difficulties and Guest Introductions

This is Apologetics Live with Matt Slick and Andrew Rappaport, part of the Christian Podcast Community.

All right, we are live, Apologetics. Live. We're glad to be here.

Sorry about the late start, folks. I hope everybody can hear me okay. Folks in chat, just let me know if you can hear. We were having some difficulties with speakers and things like that. So just give a quick shout out in the chat if you guys can hear us.

I'm Andrew Rappaport from Striving for Eternity Ministries, and I guess just as we got started, I see a thing that says, hangout on the air is live, hangout on the air is going away later this year. So maybe that's what the problem is.

Maybe the problem is that they're getting rid of our hangouts. I don't know. But we have a special guest for tonight. Many of you will know the name. It is Justin Peters. And there's some applause there for Justin.

And John has his hands up in the air in praise. So he's happy you're here, Justin. That's funny.

I'm not sure I've ever been given canned applause before. That's cool. We can do it again.

For Justin, you know, actually, we should we should do more of this sound for Justin when we mention his name. So we feel like we're in heaven because Justin is here.

I'm looking at myself on this. My phone's kind of tilted up and I'm just realizing it looks like I have a halo around my head because of the... Nah. No, that's a good effect. That's a good effect, you know?

That's not intentional. You know, I did I did a an interview with Todd Friel and didn't realize the whole time that the way the light reflected it, I had the same thing. And I was like, I didn't realize it until I watched the video afterwards.

I was like, oh, that's bad. All right. Well, we're finally live. We've spent the last half an hour trying to figure out Google Hangouts and some of the technology and figure out why Google hates us. I'm convinced of it.

But they they're probably going to yet again move to something totally different and not tell us and we'll have to figure out something, how to make it work. I guess they're going to, as I'm looking at this, they're going to a new thing called YouTube slash live streaming slash webcam, because that's where it directed me.

I wonder if that would work for you, Justin, on your Mac. Yeah, I wonder. That would be worth a try. But I should send that to you. We could try to see if that'll work on your Mac just for fun. But all right.

Try that. We could try that on your Mac, the thing I just sent you. But OK. OK, so we're going to try to do this, this show a little bit discombobulated with the fact that we had just the way that things started here.

So, folks, thank you for those of you who have been waiting. Those of you who came in appreciate it. We know that we got a late start and I am sorry about that. We wanted to make sure that we can get things working.

Oh, no. Matt's saying he cannot hear Justin. That's not good. All right. Well, we're going to have to see. I wonder. I'm really wondering if we need to just move away from Google Hangouts altogether. I think they keep moving.

I'm thinking of that, too. Yeah.

At some point from now on. Yeah. Matt, if you could just go ahead, maybe bump out and then come back in. That's what seemed to work for me. Or either that, try using a PC or laptop or something of that nature to see if you can get in.

And folks who want to join, you can go to ApologeticsLive .org and the links to join are there so that you can come on in and ask any questions. But first, before we get to the questions, I guess some preliminary stuff I should mention this is a podcast that you can hear.

We do this live, but it turns into a podcast called Apologetics Live. It's part of the Christian Podcast Community, and it is a ministry of striving for eternity. Justin Peters is from a ministry called, shoot, what's, come on, help me out there.

What's the name of Justin's ministry? It's such a hard name for me to remember. JustinIWent .com. Oh, yeah. JustinIWent .com. The website. That's really good. Yes. Justin, help me out. What's the name of your ministry again?

It is.

I got to come up with a new name. It's Justin Peters Ministries. I'm really not that narcissistic. I'm just not creative, so I don't know. I should have spent more time trying to come up with a name.

There's a real problem when you have Justin Peters Ministries. It's going to be hard for anybody else to kind of take over unless their name is Justin Peters.

That's true. I guess I do have a little built-in insurance on that, as does Votie Balkan because he calls his Votie Balkan Ministries.

Yeah, but he's got enough kids. One of them's got to be named Votie because he has to have run out of names by now. He's got, what, nine kids, I believe?

I don't know. He's got quite the quiver full. He's got an entire softball team.

All right. All right. John says that your ministry should be Clouds Without Water Ministries. Clouds With Water Ministries. Clouds With Water. There you go. Clouds With Water. Well, for folks who don't know who Justin Peters is, you are well known for your DVD series, Clouds Without Waters, and it's a series you do on word of faith.

Women Preaching, Complementarianism, and the Authority of Scripture

But you and I have been talking a lot about a different topic recently. We were down in the Philippines. We're dealing with this issue of women preachers. There were some interesting reactions while we were in the Philippines.

You and I did a podcast together. There were some interesting reactions to that. And I recently, my latest podcast I did on, does God allow women pastors, preachers? And I got to tell you, I don't think I've gotten so, I got a lot of hate mail.

But what I found more interesting is the hate mail. Most of the hate mail I got were from people who practice homosexuality. Oh, interesting. I thought that was very interesting because one of the conclusions I made of why I think this is such a serious issue is the fact that I think that when you allow, when you reinterpret the word of God to allow women to be preachers or pastors, I think it's, you lose the argument to argue against homosexuality.

And I think I said, I think it's a stepping stone for homosexuality in the church.

Absolutely. Well, not to interrupt you, but just as to support that point, look at look at where the United Methodist Church is. You know, they are, if the vote recently to embrace homosexuality, homosexual marriage had just left, been left to United Methodist Church in the United States, it would have it would have passed overwhelmingly.

It was just more conservative Methodists in other parts of the world that that kind of tipped the balance against it. But United Methodist Church started ordaining women and putting them in as pastors long before they got to the point that they're at now.

And yet look at where they are now. Most UNC churches here in the States would would embrace that. So you're absolutely right.

You know, it's interesting, Matt. And by the way, I should let folks know, because some people may be wondering, like, where's Matt Slick? So Matt Slick is in Manti, Utah. It is Manti, Utah. They do this event every year that is a pageant where they reenact the Book of Mormon.

And there's thousands of Mormons that go to that. And there are over 300 Christians evangelizing out there right now. And Matt has gone to join them. And but when I told Matt what we were discussing, he gave me an interesting statistics.

He had looked it up and he said 80 percent of the denominations that accept female preachers within two generations accept homosexuality. And I think it's because once you let culture interpret the word of God, then culture is going to do that.

And now you have to accept everything else. You lose the argument. Jason Manning is joking, obviously, but he says he hears that Joyce Myers is trying to get in here to ask you some questions, Justin.

I, I, I, I would so love that. I would love that.

I said that's what I said. We wish it was true. Beth Moore, if you're out listening. What am I saying? Of course, she's not. She she's only in the echo chamber, but we're going to talk about her because there's a very important thing that happened this week with Beth Moore.

But let's start for folks, Justin, you and I both take the same position that a woman cannot be a pastor of a church, cannot preach in the church. So why don't you explain the position that we both hold to for folks that maybe this is the first time hearing it, give an overview of it, and then let's start talking about some of the specific things, especially what happened this week with with an open letter to Beth Moore.

Sure. Yeah, there's two different positions, basically, Andrew. One is complementarianism. The other is egalitarianism. If you are an egalitarian, you believe that men and women can and should fulfill the exact same roles both in the home and in the church, including that of the pastor.

If you are a complementarian, as you and I are, we believe that men and women are of equal value before God. Galatians 3, 28 is crystal clear about that. We are of equal value before God. We are both both genders created in the image of God.

But God has designed or designed men and women to fulfill different roles, different functions in both the home and the church. And God has designed it that men are to be the spiritual leaders in both the home and the church.

And positions of spiritual authority in the church are reserved by God only for men.

So this is not a male versus female issue. This is not trying to oppress women or control them in any way. Your argument that you're making—and I agree with it, I'm just for the sake of the audience—the argument you're making is that this is an issue of how you interpret Scripture and what does Scripture say, correct?

That's correct. Right.

What is your authority? And if you say your authority is the Word of God, the Bible, then you have to come down on the complementarian side. The Bible is crystal clear on these issues. There's no amount, Andrew, no amount of hermeneutical gymnastics that you can do to come up with any kind of a valid biblical case that women can hold positions of spiritual authority in the church or they can be a pastor or an elder.

Same thing. But yeah, there's just no amount of hermeneutical gymnastics you can go through and pass the common sense test to make that argument. But that's what egalitarians try to do.

And so the interesting thing with this—and let me just pull the Scripture up because you're saying you're making a claim we want to support it, right? This is 1 Timothy 2, 12 to 14, I think one of the strongest texts on this subject.

There's another in 1 Corinthians that says a similar thing. But Paul—and let me express this—Paul, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, in other words, the Holy Spirit wrote this. It's an instructional letter when it comes to hermeneutics, the art and science of interpretation.

There's different genres, have different styles of writing. And this is instructional. So this is not something like the book of Genesis where it's historical narrative and it's accurately recording what did happen.

So the fact that Paul says, I do not permit, doesn't mean that's Paul's opinion apart from the Holy Spirit. This is Paul giving instruction by inspiration of the Holy Spirit for the church on how to function.

Because a lot of people will try to say, it's just Paul, it's not Jesus. He says, I do not permit a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man. Rather, she is to remain quiet. Now, here's the key.

People don't like what was just read. But verse 13 starts with four. That is a purpose clause. It tells us why that instruction is. So why is it that Paul would say by inspiration of Holy Spirit that a woman is not to teach or have exercise over a man or but to remain quiet?

For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became the transgressor. So this goes back not to culture. It's very clear the argument for this instruction goes back to creation.

Adam was formed first, Eve sinned first. So it's the creation order, sin order. So we can't argue that this is a cultural issue. In the very next chapter, he's going to argue for pastors that they're to be men.

I mean, husband and wife, you can't have a woman do that. So that's kind of hard for a woman to do. Well, nowadays, I guess it isn't so hard because we have plenty of guys winning track meets for females.

So.

I don't know what to do. Yeah, how judgmental of you, Andrew.

Beth Moore, Homosexuality, and the Open Letter

Yeah. Did you see that in the news, the high school, there's a bunch of high school girls that have now or they've done put in federal court, they've sued. Because at a federal level, because the fact that all these men are entering high school female sports and getting all the scholarships.

Oh, yeah, yeah, for them, they should.

They should. You know, I mean, these guys that are like, OK. For a couple of years, I'll run as a girl and I get into college. I get a free ride. I just got to run on the girls track team. OK. Yeah.

But I get a free education. You know, it's the end of female sports, this nonsense. I mean, you know, why not turn you know, why not have men decide that they want to join the WNBA and, you know,.

Feel the Jordan can make a comeback.

Yeah, I love it. I love it. When science comes back to to bite liberals, you know, and they say they're so big on science. Well, here's some science for you, either male or female.

There's no in between. You're one of the other. And, you know, you're an X chromosome or a Y chromosome. X or Y. Yeah.

Yeah. I wanted to get back to First Sympathy, too, because you you you kind of nailed it in reminding me of the Just Thinking podcast with Daryl Harrelson and Virgil Walker. I don't know if you guys heard the last that the recent episode, but they hit her out of the park and they talked about this very same reason about women teaching.

And at the end there, he makes a point, Darryl. Darryl makes a point saying. Did God say you should not murder and do you not understand what that means? Right. And did he not say you should not lie? OK, so what part of but I do not allow a woman to teach.

Confusing to them, you know, and I don't understand why they have this is why I'm.

Looking at my most recent Andrew Rappaport's rap report. I dealt with it. I went through all of the arguments that they deal with. And Justin, you know them, right? Phoebe and Chloe and all these others they claim are apostles and they're they're pastors, they're leaders of the church.

You know, oh, well, the church is meeting in someone's house. That must mean she's the pastor. It doesn't say that. Right. That's like saying, you know, Michelle Obama lived in the White House, therefore she must be the president.

You know, no, it doesn't. There's plenty of people actually that are in the White House that are not the president. Right. It's it's it's not none of not one of those passages pointed out that any of those women were actually pastor or preaching.

Every one of them actually like you look at Priscilla Aquila was always there for for everyone who wants to say that because the gospel was shared with a polis, that it must have been Priscilla. I could say no.

When we look at that, I would say she was absolutely silent, said not a word. Her husband said everything. Yeah. The text leads me. I mean, if you're going to read into the scriptures, I could read that as just as.

Well. Right, right. Exactly. Exactly.

And yeah, they use these they use these examples, another one like the women at the tomb, the women at the tomb. They were the first ones to preach the gospel, they say. Well, no, they they weren't preaching.

They were reporting what they had seen. It's not like they were opening up the text and doing exposition. They were just reporting what they had just witnessed. A and B, they weren't in a church. The church had not even yet been been established.

So, you know, it goes back to what I said earlier. You've got to do some incredible hermeneutical gymnastics and you've got to do some serious eisegesis reading into the text, a meaning that just simply is not there.

Yeah, I mean, it was interesting because, you know, they'll they'll bring out these different passages and they'll say, well, you know, if someone is if a woman is treated well by Jesus, that must mean that they could preach.

How many people? Let me just ask, Justin, in your church, you know, I've been to your church. There's what, like two, three hundred, four hundred people there now?

Oh, no, no. Well, about two, two forty on a Sunday. Yeah. How many pastors are there? We have four elders, four elders.

So does that mean the other two hundred plus people other than those four are being oppressed because they're not pastors?

Well, I can tell you, I'm not an elder at my church and I sure don't feel oppressed.

So so the fact that you're not a pastor doesn't mean that there's oppression automatically, does it? Absolutely not.

No, absolutely not. And I don't think a single woman in our church would say that she feels oppressed. Absolutely not.

Now, so so because the argument they usually do is that if you do not allow a woman to preach and Beth Moore made this argument, I mean, I find this amazing. All the people that got on me on Twitter for commenting to Beth Moore about her being at a pulpit when she talks about the sexual abuse, she actually is now saying that the sexual abuse may be caused by the fact that they don't let women preach like this is.

The oppression. Unreal.

So, yeah, so so just appalling. Absolutely appalling.

So, I mean, well, there's no time she doesn't jump on anything to use it to push her agenda. And we're going to we'll spend some time if folks don't come in, then we'll wind up spending our whole time.

We could talk about this, but this is the thing I do want to first start off with is the argument that people make that somehow women are being oppressed, yet there are qualifications for a pastor in First Timothy three and Titus one.

The men are men being. Have you heard this argument at all that men are being oppressed because they're not allowed? Not every man is allowed to be a pastor. They're not qualified. Not everyone's qualified.

Is anyone arguing that the men are being oppressed?

No, I haven't heard anybody saying that.

Hmm. No, but the women are. Yeah, but the women are. Right. Funny how that works. Yeah, I know. All right, so so we're you know, we take a position that women shouldn't be pastors. They shouldn't be preaching.

I have seen this as a very emotional issue, Justin. I've been I've been leery, very leery. Um. That that. Open my email. So because every email that I've been getting ever since the podcast this Sunday has been blasting me for different things, so I was kind of glad, though, to get this one, Justin, this was an email that I got just last night.

It said I benefited incredibly from your podcast. It is the most organized and comprehensive yet concise treatment on the subject that I have come across before listening to it. I was not confident at all with my stance.

Not only have I made up my mind on it, but I am now confident to discuss it. This was huge to me because I'm surrounded by almost solely by equally easy. It's getting the word wrong again. I can never say the word, but where everyone wants it to be equal.

I'll give me the word again, not complementarianism, egalitarian, egalitarian, egalitarian most of the time. So so here's a guy who's surrounded by egalitarians and he finally feels the confidence to to be able to discuss it and and have the material.

We hope this this Apologetics Live will do the same for you because we hear a lot of emotional arguments. We heard it down in the Philippines, Justin. We've heard it with Beth Moore recently, and I would like to address an issue with Beth Moore.

I know you you've read the letter that's been out. I know I have, but there is a an open letter to Beth Moore and I will I'll actually have one of the initial signers of that on my podcast for next week, Michelle Leslie.

She's going to come on. We're going to talk about that letter in some detail. But my question for you, Justin, I want to get your your reaction from the open letter that's out there. First off, let's talk about the letter.

Describe the letter. Describe to me or for really for the audience why you think this letter is so important for her to answer. I mean, it's a public letter. It's out there. Anyone can see you can go to Michelle Leslie's website and see it.

And I'll have the link in the show notes. But why do you think this this open letter to her was important to put out there? Why do you think it's important for her to answer?

Yes, Andrew, I think this is vitally important. I would encourage people that it's on several different ladies website and blog. The website that you can go to if you want to sign the letter, put your name to the letter is MichelleLeslie .com.

And so the letters posted in several different venues. But I think it's just this particular website where you can actually affix your signature to it. So go to MichelleLeslie .com. But these ladies, it was Michelle Leslie, Elizabeth Prada, Debbie Lynn Caspert, Susan Heck, Martha Peace.

And I think there's a couple other signatures on it now as well as like original signatories. But these ladies have put put this letter out there. The letter is focused on one issue, and that is Beth Moore's views on homosexuality.

And I don't have the letter in front of me, but it basically makes the point, rightly so, that Beth Moore has for several years been openly endorsing and commending Jen Hatmaker. Jen Hatmaker is a lady who has come out very much in support of homosexual Christians, the notion that homosexuals can be Christians.

She's come out in support of homosexual marriage. Beth Moore and Jen Hatmaker are very complimentary of one another publicly, so repeatedly, so lavish praise on one another. And also Jonathan Merritt.

Jonathan Merritt is a young man, relatively young man, who is a homosexual. Now, he has admitted to having at least one homosexual encounter. I know from people who know him well, he is a homosexual. He will, I was told recently, he will never marry a woman.

He just recently, very recently, has, in fact, it's even in this open letter. You can go and read the open letter for yourself. But he made a very crude remark to Dr. Owen Strand. Dr. Owen Strand has written articles about the biblical view of homosexuality, criticizing the Revoice conference.

And he made a comment on Twitter that there is never a reason, because he was responding to something that he saw, but he said there is never a reason for men to cuddle one another. And then Jonathan Merritt responded to Dr. Owen Strand and said, come on, Owen, you can be my little spoon, which is just disgusting.

I mean, straight men don't say that. So all of that to say, Beth Moore and Jonathan Merritt lavish praise on one another. So, and Jonathan Merritt is known for his pro-homosexual views, calls himself a theological liberal.

So the question naturally arises, Andrew, if there's this mutual admiration society between Beth Moore and Jen Hatmaker and Jonathan Merritt, and you notice that Beth Moore is very quick to to chime in on issues of race, on issues of complementarism, slash egalitarian.

She's more egalitarian. She's very quick in kind of like a me too type thing. She's Johnny on the spot, to quote the letter, Johnny on the spot to chime in on these issues. But on homosexuality, she never says anything about it.

Just complete silence. So you couple her complete silence on that issue with her very visible friendship with pro-homosexual people like Jen Hatmaker and Jonathan Merritt, and the question naturally arises, well, what does Beth Moore believe about homosexuality?

And that's what this letter asks her. It's an open letter to Beth Moore detailing all of this stuff and all the everything in there is documented really well. So basically, the letter asks Beth Moore, what do you believe about homosexuality?

Do you believe homosexuals can be Christians? Do you believe homosexuality is a sin? Do you believe unrepentant practicing homosexuals who die in that state, do you believe they go to heaven? And so that's the letter.

That's the gist of the letter. It's very simple. It's very straightforward. It asks her very easy questions, questions that you and I could that you and I could answer instantly. I mean, easily, easy softball questions, you know.

And so it's asking her to answer and state her position. So I'm very grateful that this letter is out there and we'll see what happens thus far. I don't think there's been a response from Beth Moore, but it's getting some traction.

A lot of people have signed it. At last I looked earlier in the day, something like one hundred and seventy two ladies have signed it.

There's over there is right now over one hundred ninety, one hundred ninety three. There has been there was a she did have a response possibly, though. Let me read from a Facebook post that she she has.

And I know you're not really a Facebook guy, but I had seen this and grabbed it. I could send it to you. But it's from Living Proof Ministries with Beth Moore. And it says from Beth. And this is exactly what it says.

Beware of Bible beaters void of the Holy Spirit, where the Holy Spirit goes, the Holy Spirit shows. Now, I'm going to stop there. Does that make any sense at all?

No, but it rhymes. It rhymes. That's what's important. If the blood don't fit, you must acquit.

Yeah, I mean, it's like people just get into this thing where it just sounds good. So it must be right. And that makes no sense. OK, so here's why. Here's why I say it makes no sense. The Holy Spirit is present.

He's everywhere, there's nowhere that the Holy Spirit is not. OK, so he doesn't really go anywhere. But let me ask you, where the Holy Spirit goes, the Holy Spirit shows. And actually, now that I think about it, what does he show, actually?

And how does he show it? What did he show it from the word of God, which is what we resort to, you and I, when we argue this point? I don't know. All right. Where the where the Holy Spirit goes, the Holy Spirit shows if the fruit of the spirit is not evidenced, they can hang Bible verses on the on their limbs all day long.

But something's still wrong with that tree. Jesus said, you know, a tree by its fruit. We are called by God to be people of both word and an end is in all caps and a spirit. Yes, yes. We diligently study the scriptures, pour over them in our lives.

But if we do not have the love of God in in us and evidence through us, we are no different than those Jesus called out in John 5, 37 to 42, quote, And the father who sent me has himself testified according concerning me, you you have never heard his voice, nor seen his form, nor his word dealt in you, for you do not believe the one he said.

You study the scriptures diligently because you think that in them you will have eternal life. These are the very scriptures that testify about me. Yet you refuse to come to me and have life. I do not accept glory from human beings, but I know you.

I know that you do not have the love of God in your hearts, unquote. Now, I don't I actually don't know what translation she's using there with the I don't accept glory from human beings. I found that interesting.

Actually, it got my curiosity. I think I'm going to try to find out which what translation she was using, because that's kind of interesting. I'm a little over the place. Yeah, I do kind of agree with her because, you know, the we are called to be people of the word and the spirit.

But those two would agree, wouldn't they, Justin?

Yes, absolutely. The word and the spirit are never in contradiction to one another, obviously. I find that so offensive on so many levels. She put this up apparently. So the letter, the letter went public June 18th, Tuesday, June 18th.

She put this up yesterday, Wednesday, June 19th. So, you know, roughly one day later. And a lot of people are saying this is even though she didn't mention the letter specifically, this is almost she almost it's almost certain she has a letter in view here.

If that's the case, the passage that she's quoting here, John five, is she if she is when she is, if she's comparing the the ladies who put this letter out to the individuals that Jesus was addressing in John chapter five, Andrew, you know what she's doing?

She's calling these ladies unregenerate. That's what she's doing. She's calling these ladies lost because Jesus was addressing unregenerate people. That is just so offensive on so many levels. Rather than just answer the questions, which, again, are softball questions, easy softball sitting on the tee waiting to be hit, knocked out of the park.

Rather than do that, she disparages these ladies, calls their motives into question and applying that text to them, calls them unregenerate.

Well, I think I think the thing that we end up seeing here is. If anyone was to say if I say that Beth Moore is unregenerate, how many people would.

Come after me from her crowd, Andrew, you know what I do with obviously with my clouds without water seminar, and I've taken a lot of heat from a lot of criticism over the years from word faith people.

I can honestly tell you never have I been criticized as vehemently by word faith people as I have by Beth Moore defenders. When I say something against Beth Moore, I mean the claws come out and some of the things that have been said of me by Beth Moore's defenders, man, they put anything that a word faith adherent has said about me, puts that in a shade.

I have never I've never seen the kind of vitriol, even from word faith people, as I have from Beth Moore defenders.

So she came after me.

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. If I if I may, I like to jump in and let you know a little background me. I shared your clouds without waters on my church's Facebook page, and I literally I must have had like three other women just ripped me to shreds for sharing your video about this and the truth of it.

And and and literally it got to the point where the pastor had to go ahead and just delete the entire post because it just got out of hand, you know, and not that I'm saying that I have a I go to a heretical church or anything, but I'm just saying that there's a lot of women in there that that do cling to that false teaching.

And I, you know, my heart is that, you know, I just want to go ahead and correct them out of love. You know, I wanted to just go ahead and show them the truth of what they actually teach in their theology.

And, you know, and unfortunately, you know, they have that that mentality of you can't touch the Lord's anointed. You know, we all heard that little phrase over and over and over. So, I mean, yeah, I know what you mean when for some reason, you know, the claws come out when you start touching the anointed, yeah, exactly.

I've seen this with her followers. I mean, they really rip into they've ripped into me when I've criticized her. And, you know, she is quite I think I want to focus on what you said, Justin, because she's calling people on regenerate.

That's right. OK, she's saying they don't have the Holy Spirit. And. If anyone was to do that, they would get, you know, with with her, but, you know, that is actually what's at stake here. She is putting herself where it is her.

You either agree with her or you're not saved is the way she lays it out, because what's the standard that she had? The standards, her own her own belief, if you don't hold to this, she's she doesn't support it with scripture.

She she talks about pouring through the scriptures. But, you know, one of the things that's always lacking in her teachings is the.

Scripture. Certainly the scripture in any context, I mean, she yeah, yeah, she'll quote Bible verses. I mean, she'll read them and I've listened to a lot of her teaching. My wife and I both have, but ninety nine times out of one hundred and I really don't say that in hyperbole.

I say it genuinely. Ninety nine times out of one hundred. She gets the meaning wrong. She gets the well, she gets the context wrong. So if you get the context wrong, you get the meaning wrong. And honestly, some of the interpretations that she can come up with with scripture is just mind boggling.

I don't have the kind of creativity that she does to come up with the interpretation of some of the verses that she will say. I'm not that creative. I don't know. Kudos to her for how creative she is.

I mean, some of it is just absolutely loony tunes, loony tunes.