Christian Pastor has a Wonderful Conversation with Mormons

Apologia Utah

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gospel track tonight guys yeah are you guys LDS how long have you lived here your whole life

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Boise are you just coming to BYU yeah my name is Andrew what's your name well what's your name

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Eliza did you guys meet at BYU or meet before well probably because of BYU not there though what year are you guys there junior a senior okay what's that what are you studying oh interesting education and psychology that's a good pairing nice you guys could do something

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I'm actually from Las Vegas Nevada lived in Albuquerque for a while then lived in Phoenix Arizona for 18 years

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I've lived in a bunch of different places I've lived here yeah I've lived here since 2021 because we came and planted a church here in South Jordan so I'm a

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Christian who's out here just wants to get in conversations with my LDS neighbors right because I care about you guys

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I love you guys such awesome people and that's why we're out here at BYU but we do believe with respect that Joseph Smith has deceived many people

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I just receive any people have you gone on your mission either of you where'd you go Finland Wow they speak

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Finnish there do you speak Finnish speak is a very strong word

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I understand a handful of words I dabble in Finnish oh man that's cool where'd you go California oh wow that was probably wild where in California oh gosh

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I'm glad you're okay you have no bullet holes hopefully wow that's wild well one of my my cares are my burdens is because I believe that Joseph Smith brought fundamentally a different gospel than what is brought in the

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Bible right so if I were to ask you guys what is the gospel what would you explain to me the gospel is simply put my friend we believe the gospel of Jesus Christ is faith in Jesus Christ repentance through his atoning blood baptism by immersion through the atonement of Christ receiving the gift of the

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Holy Ghost and then we believe it's pursuing in faith and in diligence and in faith in Christ to the end of our lives and it's the eternities that's the gospel gotcha perfect and would you think the same thing all right so if I were to ask you what must be done in order for me to spend eternity with the father with the father with the father embrace

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Jesus Christ with all of our hearts mights mind and strength everything that we do needs to be focused on him so there's nothing specifically that needs to be done physically on earth that makes me worthy to be with the father for all eternity well there are specific things at least in our faith that we believe that must be done for example we believe that I'm sure you know that we believe there are these things called covenants which are made in holy temples at least some of them are their promises that we make with God we believe that those are something he asks of us as part of a way to demonstrate our faith specific things that he asks us to do in this life or if we don't receive an opportunity in the next gotcha okay so some of those things that need to be done are external works which

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I would see that you would present before the father to say hey am I worthy in order to be in the highest level of heaven what do you guys believe about the celestial kingdom do you believe like there's a celestial kingdom and three within the celestial or know much about that we just know what some people have said about it

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I don't know frankly gotcha okay so what if I were to tell you

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I'll use an example like baptism of the dead right they do those work in proxies

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I don't know if they actually do it at that one underground okay there's a vicarious work that is done on behalf of other individuals right yeah so my wonder is why don't as individuals who want to believe in Jesus Christ accept purely the vicarious work of Christ that he did on the cross for our sins in order to make us stand before the father why is there additional words as people who believe in vicarious works right why not take

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Jesus's work to the most logical conclusion essentially I actually have a have a thought about this yeah yeah dude

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I'm with me have a couple minutes ah okay sorry my thoughts on that is

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I think I've talked with a with a handful of people kind of about this topic warrants of our faith but are very heartfelt devoted Christians and it's very very interesting one thing

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I found is here's how I would describe it a lot of people assume that we believe that here's what

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God asks of us here's what saves us and when you put those two together that equals salvation right

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I would would you is it is it unfair to say that what God asks of us is faith belief etc

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Jesus Christ on the cross saves us salvation is that fair representation would you say yeah

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I would say in terms of Christianity when we talk about specific terms we want to use the definitions

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I would explain from the Bible essentially because we can use the same words but we have different meanings so when

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I say salvation is a Christian I believe that through my faith alone in Jesus Christ I will stand before the father justified solely through the righteousness of Jesus and his vicarious work on the cross for me on my behalf not external works that I do present before God so salvation correct me if I'm wrong according to LDS theology there's like three different definite definitions of salvation there could even be six to the fullest like there's a general salvation that gets you to the lowest level right of the celestial kingdom or to get celestial kingdom then there's a salvation for the terrestrial and then there's the greatest of salvation to be with the father in the celestial kingdom so within Mormon theology everyone can generally saved and go to the lowest level of heaven right but not necessarily with the father for all eternity it's a little more complicated than that but simply put

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I guess from a certain viewpoint kind of but for intents and purposes of conversations keep going yeah so the

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Bible the way it explains my salvation is solely through the work of Jesus and when

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I say something like that when I'm speaking to my LDS neighbors they're going well faith without works is dead right if you love

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Jesus won't you obey his commandments you know so the Bible says right amen I agree with that but those are the fruit of a saving faith they're not the root of the season results of faith it's the result of faith if you don't have the fruits then you didn't have the faith to begin with it right amen yeah amen but what

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I could say according to God's Word is that if I were to believe in Jesus tonight if I were to believe in Jesus and I then

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I walked down the street and I got hit by a car right and died I would be with the father for all eternity even if I wasn't baptized so do

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I think that baptism is important absolutely Jesus says be baptized sure but it's not salvific that would be an additional work of my own righteousness that I would present before the father yeah the

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Bible says my righteousness is nothing but filthy rags before God right so if I have to add external works to the gospel

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I end up getting a different gospel when's the last time you guys read the book of Galatians Galatians I had a class about the

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Old Testament last semester so gotcha so Galatians would be a New Testament epistle that Paul wrote to the church in Galatia oh then it was probably a while ago so no no you're fine so Paul even brings up covenants because I love that you guys talk about covenants

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I think covenants are extremely important of course absolutely important so in Galatians Paul is speaking to a group of people called

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Judaizers yeah and these Judaizers are telling Gentile believers which are people who are not ethnic

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Jews by birth he's telling there's Judaizers telling these people in order for you to actually be saved it's good that you believe in Jesus now but in order for you to actually be saved you must first be circumcised you must first circumcise yourself and Paul goes whoa hold up in this letter he says absolutely not if you believe that you must be circumcised in order to be saved you might as well cut your whole member off that's what he tells him yeah he says that if you think you're justified by the works of the law this is

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Galatians 221 he says the death of Christ has no effect on you because you've missed the gospel keep talking okay cool so in Galatians Paul then makes the arguments going back to covenants right he talks about the covenant that God originally made with Abraham do you remember where's a law is kind of connects in this right yeah yeah so so the company made with Abraham was before the mosaic right so the covenant he made with Abraham was in Genesis 15 6 and what does it say in Genesis 15 6

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Abraham believed in God believed and it was accredited to him as righteousness there was no work

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Abraham had done he wasn't baptized after there was no temple work done he believed in God the original covenant and it was accredited to him as righteousness and you already believed that God told him which

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I believe is the pre -incarnate Christ before he took on flesh he said through your offspring singular will all the nations be blessed and Paul reiterates he says this the offspring that he's referring to in Galatians 3 he says that's

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Jesus that's Jesus so Abraham looked forward in faith to the coming of the

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Messiah and through his belief alone in that covenant he was justified and then

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Jesus fully ratifies the covenant with his blood because he was the one who was perfectly obedient to the works of the law without sin so now my faith in Jesus I'm grafted into the same covenant it says in Ephesians chapter 2 there's no there's nothing that I can do any better than what

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Jesus is doing so the point would be I would say respectfully if we think that obedience to the

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Word of Wisdom tithing 10 % being sealed in the temple for all time and eternity whatever you want to name it

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I know there's like a list of like 24 26 different things that needs to be done if that is what calls you to be worthy that's external righteousness not the righteousness of Christ I see your point and if you look to be justified by the works of the law the death of Christ has no effect on you whether it's the

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Mosaic law or as Paul explains in Colossians commandments of men and I would say that Joseph respectfully said there was a snowflakes man yes respectfully

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I know sometimes people get upset you know he said guess what guys there's something that happened caught an apostasy we've lost the truth there's a big glass table it's been broken there was truth and now everyone's got these little pieces of truth and guess what

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I have the restoration now of the gospel showed to me through the Book of Mormon right and other revelations we can say doctrine and covenants pearl of great price

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I mean I love you guys so I came out here so he says the

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Word of God's been corrupted right article 8 article 8 says we believe that the

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Bible to be true and so far as long as it's correctly in the Book of Mormon is the Word of God Bible's been corrupt you can't trust it and guess what if you're obedient to the gospel ordinances and principles and the works of the church of the organization that's been reestablished the one that was lost off the face of the earth right you can become

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God's one day you become God's you can have everything heavenly father has but I'm here to tell you my friends that the

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God of the Bible says in Isaiah 42 a he does not share his glory with anyone and the Hebrew word used as literally worship praise right this isn't the

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Greek word that's talked about in the New Testament where we receive glory through an inheritance by Jesus Christ for Jesus Christ to his worship being joint heirs with Christ yeah so if we get a different gospel we'll end up fundamentally believing the same lie this is my concern that Adam and Eve believed in the garden right in the garden they were told not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good

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Satan came and the first thing he told them was did God say that is the

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Bible missing many plain and precious parts to the Word of God are you missing something here then he says guess what we can become just like God it's the very same temptation right so what

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I find within LDS theology is that very same framework don't trust the

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Word of God the Bible has been corrupted the Gospels been lost here's a way to add external righteousness on top of the works of Jesus and one day you'll be in the celestial kingdom with a heavenly wife and you guys too will have spirit offspring right one day and have your own worship in glory the same things that the father has that's my worries the same line so if we believe in a different gospel we don't actually have an atonement for our sins and that means when we die we're judged because God is a holy and righteous and just judge an idolatry fall into Satan's power yeah it's idolatry it's the number one commandment we're not worshiping the true

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God so my hope for you guys is that I want you to believe what

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Jesus says heaven and earth shall pass away but my words by no means will ever pass away

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Isaiah 40 verse 8 the grass withers the flower fades but the Lord the Word of the

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Lord endures forever right Isaiah 43 10 before me there was no God formed neither shall there be after me

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I am the first I'm the last beside me there is no God and then that God in Philippians chapter 2 it says

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Jesus though he existed in the form of God did not consider equality with God something to be grasped held on to you he emptied himself taking the form of a servant he was obedient to the father even to the point of death death on a cross so through my faith in Jesus that the eternal

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God El Gabor El Shaddai the Almighty God took on flesh and died the death that we deserve and if we reject that sacrifice and believe in a different God and think we have anything that we can do to present to him right when you die he's gonna look at you he's gonna say and this is my worry this is my worries my heart he's gonna look at you and he's gonna say if you think that you're justified by the works of the law the death of Christ has no effect on you there's many that come to him and say

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Lord Lord let us into the keno of heaven look at the works we've done in your name he says depart from me you workers of iniquity

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I know you not so I want you to know the true Jesus the true gospel he says all who are weary and heavy laden come to me and I will give you rest

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Moroni 1032 has got to be very difficult right you deny yourself of all ungodliness and love the

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Lord with all your might mind and strength then is his grace sufficient for you Bible says you can never do it you can't ever do it that's the case that's the case honestly my friend his grace helps us while we become perfect and ultimately

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I there's there's a lot to say I think you you had a very very wonderful thanks for letting me talk on a diet what were you thinking by the way on your phone oh that was just one point

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I think that we talked about it yeah we moved on past it but ultimately I think the reason why

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I believe man the way I believe it's because I have read the Book of Mormon cover to cover time after time after time

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I can't remember how many times I've read it I know what the Spirit of God feels like and I know what the

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Spirit of Satan feels like when I have prayed about that book my friend I felt the

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Spirit of God Satan cannot replicate those feelings I had as I read and that's where my testimony comes from that's where my faith comes from it's from my experience

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I don't have all the answers I I haven't looked through it and go this logically makes sense because there's a lot of things about it where I'm like this still doesn't make sense but I guess

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I remember I know what I felt I know what I've experienced and like I can't let go of that and I know that if there's any justice in heaven

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I'm doing everything I can to follow God as best as I can as best as I know how yeah and so that's essentially where I'm coming from yeah remind me y 'all's names

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I'm so sorry I'm Andrew this is Andrew King Cyrus yeah and it was will

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Eliza like Eliza thornberrys from the wild hornberries like just out here like fellow

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Christians like reminding me this is important we I think sometimes like like we believe the same that Jesus Christ is the center and we can't do anything without him and that he is everything and that we need to that it's only through him that we can be saved and that it's super that we can do anything and yeah we believe the same and and so I think it's cool it's yeah keep reminding people that Jesus Christ lives and that that he's real that his power is real yes yeah we believe the same we'll keep doing the same as well so I do have one question for you please you said you've read the

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Book of Mormon many many times and you feel the spirit through that do you feel the same spirit when you read through the

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Holy Bible a hundred percent man and you feel the exact same have you read it as many times or not as many times but I have read it

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I'd encourage you to read it more dude I've been like I'm having those thoughts

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I'm like dude I am slacking both just testify of Christ and let us know because I mean

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I have I think I just moved here in June and as part of that going to this church been very um encouraged to deep dig into it

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I don't understand LDS fully but I've been talking with this one guy so I actually

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I don't really read I listen on my earbuds as I'm working in a house but listen through all of it now

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Book of Mormon the doctrines the pearl all that stuff and like I don't get that same feeling now scripture

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I like cool Wow it just fulfilled but I I just don't have that same there's a lot of like I do contracting right a living so I buy things under under a contract and a lot of times in those contracts we you try to understand where the other parties coming from it so you write certain things into it yeah loopholes the first thing

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I read in the Book of Mormon was oh well anything's not interpreted correctly then I was just my fault so like for me that's like an immediate flag that goes up is like someone already has an out so if I don't know if you've ever experienced a contradiction in the

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Book of Mormon or anything or maybe the the prophets or something's come and change something in it like for me all of a sudden for me it it just concerns me because all of a sudden it's like a loophole yeah and allows now pretty much anybody can go say whatever they want and contradict the

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Book of Mormon or they've pretty much written themselves a get -out -of -jail yeah card so I that's why

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I like for me I would encourage you to focus on the Holy Bible more yeah no dude

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I need to 100 % I appreciate that yeah yeah yeah that is from God cuz

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I've been like I need to do this I keep slacking on you've been thinking about it can I leave you with the thought experiment to think about so when we talk about our experiences determining truth it's a it's a tangled web and it can lead us astray

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Jeremiah 17 9 it says the heart is deceitful above all things desperately sick who could know it so if I were to tell somebody to give it a thought experiment you can think about this on your way home or later tonight if I were to speak to a

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Jehovah's Witness right and they were to tell me well you know I prayed about the New World Translation in the

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Watchtower Track Society I believe that Jesus Christ is the first creation of Jehovah God that he was once Michael the

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Archangel in the pre -existence he took on flesh he didn't die on a cross but died on a stake and resurrected as a spirit creature

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I prayed about it God told me it was true okay and then we take a Muslim someone a faultless father of Islam he says

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Jesus Christ wasn't God in the flesh he's a prophet he was just a mere prophet I prayed about it and I believe it right then we take someone who says transgender

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I prayed to God that I was a female and God answered me I am a female so I mutilated my body parts through their own experience they determine that is truth

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James 1 5 when it says if any of you lack wisdom doesn't say if any of you lack knowledge right but in context what

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James is referring to is the persecution that is happening in the early church because Jews were killing

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Christians they were killing Christians in Jerusalem so if you need wisdom on how to suffer righteously this is the context ask of God for wisdom don't ask of God for new knowledge about himself because all of the knowledge is hidden in Jesus Christ who's been revealed in his person the mystery has been revealed

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Jesus Christ is the eternal God not the offspring of Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother he's not the spirit brother of Lucifer he's the creator of all things and that's the one who took on flesh and died for you if you were to believe in him he asked his disciples who do you say that I am he means it and if you don't believe he is that God you have a different Jesus 2nd

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Corinthians 11 verse 4 Paul warns there's people who seek a different Jesus a different gospel that go after a different spirit that's verbatim you can look it up so I have precedents outside of my own experience the objective

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Word of God that tells me to beware so my heart can't deceive me because the

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Muslim can give you the same argument it's not about my experience God's Word determines the truth think about that a little bit and as you go back to the

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Bible read it and go who is Jesus saying that he is versus who does Joseph say that Jesus is all right sounds good

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I think you guys are giving me some homework to do good man hey nice to meet you Eliza and will meet you guys have a good night all right starting