Christian Pastor has a Wonderful Conversation with Mormons

Gospel track tonight guys. Yeah, are you guys LDS? How long? Have you lived here your whole life? Boise are you just coming to BYU? Yeah, my name is Andrew. What's your name? Will? What's your name? Eliza?

Did you guys meet at BYU or meet before?

Well, probably because of BYU. Not there. What year are you guys there?

Junior a senior. Okay, what's that? What are you studying? I say psychology. Oh interesting. Education and psychology. That's a good pairing. Nice, you guys could do something. I'm actually from Las Vegas, Nevada.

Lived in Albuquerque for a while then lived in Phoenix, Arizona for 18 years. I've lived in a bunch of different places I've lived here. Yeah, I've lived here since 2021 because we came and planted a church here in South Jordan.

So I'm a Christian who's out here just wants to get in conversations with my LDS neighbors, right? Because I care about you guys. I love you guys such awesome people and that's why we're out here at BYU.

But we do believe with respect that Joseph Smith has deceived many people. And it's received many people. Have you gone on your mission either of you? Where'd you go? Finland. Wow, they speak Finnish there.

Do you speak Finnish?

Speak is a very strong word. I understand a handful of words. I dabble in Finnish. Oh, man, that's cool. Where'd you go?

California. Oh, wow. That was probably wild. We're in California. Oh Gosh, I'm glad you're okay. You have no bullet holes. Hopefully. Wow, that's wild. Well one of my My cares are my burdens is because I believe that Joseph Smith brought fundamentally a different gospel Than what is brought in the Bible, right?

So if I were to ask you guys, what is the gospel? What would you explain to me? The gospel is?

Simply put my friend. We believe the gospel of Jesus Christ is faith in Jesus Christ repentance through his atoning blood baptism by immersion through the atonement of Christ Receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost and then we believe it's pursuing in faith and in diligence and in faith in Christ.

So the end of our lives and it's the eternities. That's the gospel. Gotcha. Perfect. And would you think the same thing?

Salvation by Faith Alone Versus External Works

All right. So if I were to ask you what must be done in order for me to spend eternity with the father.

With the father with the father. Embrace Jesus Christ with all of our hearts might mind and strength. Everything that we do needs to be focused on him.

So there's nothing specifically that needs to be done Physically on earth that makes me worthy to be with the father for all eternity.

Well, there are specific things at least in our faith that we believe that must be done. For example, we believe that I'm sure you know that we believe there are these things called covenants Which are made in holy temples.

At least some of them are Their promises that we make with God. We believe that those are something he asks of us as part of a way to demonstrate our faith. And we believe that those are specific things that he asks us to do in this life or if we don't receive an opportunity in.

The next gotcha. Okay. So some of those things that need to be done are external works, which I would see. That you would present before the father to say hey, am I worthy in order to be in the highest level of heaven?

What do you guys believe about the celestial kingdom? Do you believe like there's a celestial kingdom and then three within the celestial or. I don't know much about that. We just know.

What some people have said about it? I.

Don't know frankly gotcha. Okay. So what if I were to tell you? I'll use an example like baptism of the dead, right? You they do those work in proxies. I don't know if they actually do it at that one underground.

Okay. There's a vicarious work that is done on behalf of other individuals, right? Yeah, so. My wonder is why don't as individuals who want to believe in Jesus Christ. Except purely the vicarious work of Christ that he did on the cross for our sins in order to make us stand before the father.

Why is there additional works as people who believe in vicarious works, right?

Why not take Jesus's work to the most logical conclusion. Essentially, I actually have a have a thought about this. Yeah. Yeah, dude, I'm we only have a couple minutes. Ah, okay. Sorry. Essentially my thoughts on that is I think I've talked with a with a handful of people kind of about this topic warrants of our faith.

But I'm very heartfelt devoted Christians and it's very very interesting. One thing I found is Here's how I would describe it. A lot of people assume that we believe that here's what God asks of us Here's what saves us and then when you put those two together that equals salvation, right?

I would would you is it is it unfair to say that what God asks of us is faith belief, etc. Jesus Christ on the cross saves us salvation. Is that fair representation? Would you say?

Galatians, Abraham, and Justification by the Righteousness of Christ

Yeah, I would say in terms of Christianity when we talk about specific terms We want to use the definitions I would explain from the Bible essentially because we can use the same words. But we have different meanings.

So when I say salvation is a Christian I believe that through my faith alone in Jesus Christ I will stand before the Father justified solely through the righteousness of Jesus and his vicarious Work on the cross for me on my behalf not external works that I do present before God.

So salvation. Correct me if I'm wrong according to LDS theology. There's like three different definite definitions of salvation. There could even be six to the fullest like there's a general salvation that gets you to the lowest level Right of the celestial kingdom or to get celestial kingdom.

Then there's a salvation for the terrestrial and then there's the greatest of salvation to be with the Father in the celestial kingdom. So within Mormon theology, everyone can be generally saved and go to the lowest level of heaven, right?

But not necessarily with the Father for all eternity.

It's a little more complicated than that but simply put I guess from a certain viewpoint. Kind of but for intents and purposes of the conversations. Keep going. Yeah, so.

The Bible the way it explains my salvation is solely through the work of Jesus. And when I say something like that when I'm speaking to my LDS neighbors, they're going well. Faith without works is dead.

Right, if you love Jesus, won't you obey his commandments? You know, so the Bible says right? Amen. I agree with that. But those are the fruit of a saving faith. They're not the root of the state's the result of faith.

It's the result of faith. If you don't have the fruits then you didn't have the faith to begin with it, right? Amen.

Yeah, amen, but what I could say according to God's Word is that if I? Were to believe in Jesus tonight if I were to believe in Jesus and I then I walked down the street And I got hit by a car. And died.

I would be with the Father for all eternity, even if I wasn't baptized. So do I think that baptism is important. Absolutely. Jesus says be baptized. Sure, but it's not Salvific. That would be an additional work of my own righteousness that I would present before the Father.

Yeah, the Bible says my righteousness is nothing but filthy rags before God, right? So if I have to add external works to the gospel, I end up getting a different gospel. When's the last time you guys read the book of Galatians.

Galatians?

I had a class about the Old Testament last semester. So probably sometime then gotcha.

So Galatians would be a New Testament epistle that Paul wrote to the church in Galatia. Oh, then it was. Probably a while ago. So Paul even brings up covenants because I love that you guys talk about covenants.

I think covenants are extremely important. Of course, absolutely important. So in Galatians Paul is speaking to a group of people called Judaizers. Yeah, and these Judaizers are telling Gentile believers.

Which are people who are not ethnic Jews by birth. He's telling there's Judaizers telling these people in order for you to actually be saved. It's good that you believe in Jesus now, but in order for you to actually be saved you must first be circumcised.

You must first circumcise yourself and Paul goes whoa Hold up in this letter. He says Absolutely, not if you believe that you must be circumcised in order to be saved. You might as well cut your whole member off.

That's what he tells him. Yeah. He says that if you think you're justified by the works of the law, this is Galatians 221. He says the death of Christ has no effect on you because you've missed the gospel.

Keep talking. Okay, cool. Can you think of something? Yeah. Okay, cool. So in Galatians Paul then makes the arguments going back to covenants, right? He talks about the covenant that God originally made with Abraham.

Do you remember where's a law is kind of connects in this? Yeah. Yeah. So so the company made with Abraham was before the mosaic, right? So the covenant he made with Abraham was in Genesis 15 6 and what does it say in Genesis 15 6?

Abraham believed in God. Believed and it was accredited to him as righteousness. There was no work Abraham had done. He wasn't baptized after there was no temple work done. He believed in God the original covenant and it was accredited to him as righteousness and you already believed That God told him which I believe is the pre-incarnate Christ before he took on flesh.

He said through your offspring singular Will all the nations be blessed and Paul reiterates? He says this the offspring that he's referring to in Galatians 3. He says that's Jesus. That's Jesus. So Abraham Looked forward in faith to the coming of the Messiah and through his belief alone in that covenant He was justified and then Jesus fully ratifies the covenant with his blood because he was the one who was perfectly obedient to the works Of the law without sin.

So now my faith in Jesus. I'm grafted into the same covenant. It says in Ephesians chapter 2. There's no there's nothing that I can do any better than what Jesus is doing. So the point would be I would say respectfully if we think that obedience to the Word of Wisdom tithing 10

Being sealed in the temple for all time and eternity. Whatever you want to name it. I know there's like a list of like 24 or 26 different things that needs to be done. If that is what calls you to be worthy, that's external righteousness not the righteousness of Christ.

I see your point. And if you look to be justified by the works of the law The death of Christ has no effect on you whether it's the Mosaic law or as Paul explains in Colossians commandments of men. And I would say that Joseph respectfully Said there was a snowflakes.

Yeah. Yes. Respectfully, I know sometimes people get upset, you know. He said guess what guys. There's something that happened called an apostasy we've lost the truth there's a big glass table it's been broken.

There was truth and now everyone's got these little pieces of truth and guess what? I have the restoration now of the gospel showed to me through the Book of Mormon, right and other revelations. We can say doctrine and covenants parole of great price.

You've done your homework. I mean, I love you guys. So I came out here so He says the Word of God's been corrupted right article 8 article 8 says We believe that the Bible to be true and so far as long as it's translated correctly in the Book of Mormon is the Word of God Bibles been corrupt.

You can't trust it and guess what if you're obedient to the gospel ordinances and principles and the works of the church of the organization. That's been reestablished the one that was lost off the face of the earth, right?

You can become God's one day. Become God's you can have everything Heavenly Father has. I'm here to tell you my friends That the God of the Bible says in Isaiah 42 a he does not share his glory with anyone and the Hebrew word used as Kedok and it means literally worship praise.

Right. This isn't the Greek word that's talked about in the New Testament where we receive glory through an inheritance by Jesus Christ for Jesus Christ to his worship being joint heirs with Christ. Yeah so if we Get a different gospel.

We'll end up fundamentally believing the same lie. This is my concern that Adam and Eve believed in the garden. Right in the garden. They were told not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Satan came and the first thing he told them was did God say that. Is the Bible missing many plain and precious parts to the Word of God? Are you missing something here? Then he says guess what? You can become just like God.

The very same temptation, right? So what I find Within LDS theology is that very same framework. Don't trust the Word of God. The Bible has been corrupted. The gospel has been lost. Here's a way to add external righteousness on top of the works of Jesus and one day you'll be in the celestial kingdom With a heavenly wife and you guys too will have spirit offspring right one day and have your own Worship in glory the same things that the father has.

That's my worry. It's the same lie. So if we believe in a different gospel We don't actually have an atonement for our sins. And that means when we die, we're judged because God is a holy and righteous and just judge an idolatry.

It's all into Satan's power. Yeah, it's idolatry. It's the number one commandment. We're not worshiping the true God. So my hope for you guys Is that I want you to believe what? Jesus says heaven or shall pass away, but my words by no means will ever pass away.

Of course, Isaiah 40 verse 8 the grass withers the flower fades, but the Lord the Word of the Lord endures forever. Isaiah 43 10 before me. There was no God formed. Neither shall there be after me. I am the first I'm the last beside me.

There is no God and then that God in Philippians chapter 2 it says Jesus Though he existed in the form of God did not consider equality with God something to be grasped held on to. He emptied himself taking the form of a servant.

He was obedient to the father even to the point of death death on a cross. So through my faith in Jesus that the eternal God El Gabor El Shaddai the Almighty God took on flesh and died the death that we deserve and If we reject that sacrifice and believe in a different God and think we have anything that we can do to present to him.

Right when you die, he's gonna look at you. He's gonna say and this is my worry. This is my worries my heart. He's gonna look at you and he's gonna say If you think that you're justified by the works of the law the death of Christ has no effect on you.

There's many that come to him and say Lord Lord. Let us into the keno of heaven. Look at the works we've done in your name He says depart from me you workers of iniquity. I I know you not. So I want you to know the true Jesus the true gospel.

He says all who are weary and heavy laden come to me and I will give you rest. Moroni 1032 has got to be very difficult. Right, you deny yourself of all ungodliness and love the Lord with all your might mind and strength.

Then is his grace sufficient for you. Bible says you can never do it. You can't ever do it.

Testimony, Experience, and the Limits of Subjective Truth

That's the case honestly my friend. His grace helps us while we become perfect. And ultimately I there's there's a lot to say. I think you you had a very very wonderful. Thanks for letting me talk. I.

What were you thinking by the way on your phone? Oh, that was just one point. I think that we talked about it.

Yeah, we moved on past it. But ultimately I think The the reason why I believe men the way I believe It's because I have read the Book of Mormon cover to cover time after time after time. I can't remember how many times I've read it.

I Know what the Spirit of God feels like and I know what the Spirit of Satan feels like. When I have prayed about that book my friend, I felt the Spirit of God. Satan cannot replicate those feelings. I had as I read and That's where my testimony comes from.

That's where my faith comes from is from my experience. I don't have all the answers I I haven't looked through it and go this logically makes sense because right there's a lot of things about it where I'm like This still doesn't make sense.

But I guess I Remember, I know what I felt I know what I've experienced and like I can't let go of that and I know that if there's any justice in heaven I'm doing everything I can to follow God as best as I can as best as I know.

How. Yeah.

And so that's essentially where I'm coming from. Yeah, remind me y 'all's names. I'm so sorry. I'm Andrew. This is Andrew King Cyrus. And it was. Will. Eliza like Eliza. Thornberrys from the wild hornberries.

We I think sometimes like like we believe the same that Jesus Christ is the center we can't do anything without him and that he is everything and That we need to. That it's only through him that we can be saved and that it's different that we can do anything.

And yeah, we believe the same and and so I think it's cool. It's yeah, keep reminding people that Jesus Christ lives and that That he's real that his power is real. Yes. Yeah, we believe the same. We'll keep doing the same as well.

So I do have one question for you. You said you've read the Book of Mormon many many times and you feel the spirit Through that. Do you feel the same spirit when you read through the Holy Bible a hundred percent man.

You feel the exact same. Have you read it as many times or not as many times, but I have read it.

I'd encourage you to read it more dude. I've been like, I've been having those thoughts. I'm like, dude, I am slack.

Just testify of Christ and let us know. Because I mean I have I think I just moved here in June.

And as part of that going to this church been very Encouraged to deep dig into it. I don't understand the LDS fully, but I've been talking with this one guy, you know, so I Actually, I don't really read I listen on my ear buds as I'm working in a house, but listen through all of it Book of Mormon the doctrines of Pearl all that stuff.

And like I don't get that same feeling. Now scripture. I like cool Wow. It's just fulfilled, but I I just don't have that same. There's a lot of like I Do contracting for a living so I buy things under under a contract and a lot of times in those contracts we You try to understand where the other parties coming from and so you write certain things into it.

Yeah loopholes. The first thing I read in the Book of Mormon was oh, well anything's not interpreted correctly. Then I was just my phone so like for me, that's like an immediate flag that goes up is like Yes, someone already has an out.

So if I Don't know if you've ever experienced a contradiction in the Book of Mormon or anything or maybe the the prophets or something It's come and change something in it Like for me all of a sudden for me it it just concerns me because all of a sudden it's like a loophole.

Yeah, it allows now Pretty much anybody can go say whatever they want and contradict the Book of Mormon or They've pretty much written themselves a get-out-of-jail Card, so I that's why I like for me.

I would encourage you to focus on the Holy Bible.

Oh Lord, yeah, no, dude, I need to 100 actually I appreciate that. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. That is from God because I've been like I need to do this. I keep slacking on you've been thinking about it.

Can I leave you with the thought experiment to think about? So when we talk about our experiences determining truth, it's a it's a tangled web and it can lead us astray. Jeremiah 17 9 it says the heart is deceitful above all things desperately sick who can know it.

So if I were to tell somebody. To give it a thought experiment. You can think about this on your way home or later tonight. If I were to speak to a Jehovah's Witness. Right, and they were to tell me well, you know, I prayed about the New World Translation in the Watchtower Track Society.

I believe that Jesus Christ is the first creation of Jehovah God. That he was once Michael the Archangel in the pre-existence. He took on flesh. He didn't die on a cross but died on a stake and resurrected as a spirit creature.

I prayed about it. God told me it was true. Okay, and then we take a Muslim. So I'm gonna fall as father of Islam. He says Jesus Christ wasn't God in the flesh. He's a prophet. He was just a mere prophet.

I prayed about it and I believe it. Right, and then we take someone who says transgender. I prayed to God that I was a female and God answered me. I am a female. So I mutilated my body parts through their own experience.

They determined that is truth. James 1 5 when it says if any of you lack wisdom doesn't say if any of you lack knowledge. Right, but in context what James is referring to is the persecution that is happening in the early church because Jews were killing Christians.

They were killing Christians in Jerusalem. So if you need wisdom on how to suffer. Righteously, this is the context. Ask of God for wisdom. Don't ask of God for new knowledge about himself. Because all of the knowledge is hidden in Jesus Christ who's been revealed in his person the mystery has been revealed.

Jesus Christ is the eternal God. Not the offspring of heavenly father and heavenly mother. He's not the spirit brother of Lucifer. He's the creator of all things and that's the one who took on flesh and died for you.

If you were to believe in him, he asked his disciples. Who do you say that I am? He means it. And if you don't believe he is that God you have a different Jesus. 2nd Corinthians 11 verse 4. Paul warns.

There's people who seek a different Jesus a different gospel that go after a different spirit. That's verbatim. You can look it up. So I have precedence outside of my own experience the objective Word of God that tells me to beware.

So my heart can't deceive me. Because the Muslim can give you the same argument. It's not about my experience. God's Word determines the truth. Think about that a little bit and as you go back to the Bible.

Read it and go who is Jesus saying that he is? Versus who does Joseph say that Jesus is?

All right, sounds good. I think you guys are giving me some homework to do good, man.

Hey, nice to meet you Eliza and we'll meet you guys. Have a good night. All right.

Starting John as if you've never heard of anything before. Later guys.