May 18, 2023 Show with Virgil Walker on “Christian Nationalism: A Review of the Broad Spectrum of Its Professed Adherents”

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May 19, 2023

May 18, 2023 VIRGIL WALKER, author, Executive Director of Operations @ G3 Ministries, & co-host of the “Just Thinking” Podcast, who will address: “CHRISTIAN NATIONALISM: A REVIEW of the BROAD SPECTRUM of its PROFESSED ADHERENTS” & announcing the 2023 G3 National Conference!!

00:03: Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer
00:11: George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend
00:16: Jim Thorpe. It's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,
00:23: Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.
00:31: Proverbs, chapter 27, verse 17, tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.
00:38: Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.
00:50: It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.
00:57: And now here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,
01:10: Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.
01:20: This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this 18th
01:26: May, 18th day of May, 2023. I'm so thrilled to have back as a returning guest one of my favorite guests to interview.
01:37: His name is Virgil Walker. His name should be very familiar to the regular listeners of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio since I have interviewed him many times and hope to interview him many more times in the future.
01:51: He's an author. He's a conference speaker. He's the executive director of operations at G3 Ministries.
01:57: And he's the co -host of the Just Thinking podcast. Today we're going to be addressing an extremely controversial issue,
02:05: Christian nationalism, a review of the broad spectrum of its professed adherence.
02:12: And we're also going to be announcing the upcoming 2023 G3 National Conference in Atlanta, Georgia.
02:20: And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, my dear friend
02:25: Virgil Walker. Are you there, Virgil? I am always glad to be with you, brother.
02:33: It's a joy to get a chance to, once again, to talk about all the issues that matter. Amen. And I was so thrilled to finally meet face -to -face your sweet, wonderful, godly wife,
02:46: T. Dianne, at the Church and Family Life Conference that took place,
02:54: I guess it was two weeks ago? Yeah, yeah. We had a great time there with the folks for the
03:00: Church and Family Conference there, and a wonderful opportunity to bring her along.
03:06: That's not something that happens as often as I would like, but when it does, it's an absolute joy to get to bring her into spaces and places where I've been and meet people who
03:18: I've talked about or whose names she's heard me mention. And for you, it was, you know, she'd hear your voice as I would be doing interviews.
03:28: She would hear your voice in the background on speakers. And so for her to put a face and a voice, in your case, with a name and a face and all that was just great.
03:39: Got a chance to go out and grab a bite to eat in a couple of spots and get some great fellowship in.
03:45: So it was a good time. Yeah, and what a beautiful area Black Mountain, North Carolina is. It really was.
03:51: Really was. It was great. Very picturesque, and the weather was perfect, and so we really got a chance to enjoy some time there.
03:57: Yeah, it was good. Well, I'm thrilled also that Scott Brown, who is the host and orchestrator of these annual
04:07: Church and Family Life Conferences, he has invited me back to Man and Exhibitor's booth at their next conference, which already has a phenomenal lineup for that as well.
04:18: Yeah. And I am really excited about that, and I thank him for that invitation and opportunity.
04:27: But I'm also coming up in the much closer future.
04:34: I'm really thrilled again, as I always am, to be attending the 2023 G3 National Conference.
04:42: And why don't you tell our listeners about this year's National Conference? Yeah, this year's
04:47: National Conference is going to be amazing. Every time I even think about it, a smile jumps on my face, because I know the plans that we have here and what people are going to be experiencing at the conference.
05:00: The conference is our national biennial conference, so it's a once -every -other -year opportunity to connect with the
05:07: National Conference at G3. And this year, it's September 21st through the 23rd. It will cover the doctrine of the sovereignty of God.
05:15: And so, for us, this was an important doctrine, as we seem to be encountering attacks related to God's sovereignty in almost every sphere of culture.
05:26: Whether it's the LGBTQIA +, mafia, if you will, the alphabet mafia, if you will, who are challenging whether a man is a man and a woman is a woman, or some facet of the gender spectrum.
05:42: Whether it's the idea of the challenge of marriage, or even in school systems, how children should indeed be educated.
05:50: Well, God has ordained all of those things, that He's created one man and one woman, that marriage is between a man and a woman and a covenant union for life, that children are the responsibility of parents, not the state, and that we have an obligation as human beings and believers, particularly believers in Christ, to educate our children to glorify
06:11: God and enjoy Him forever. With that said, everywhere we turn, that is under attack, and so it's important for us to gather as believers to revisit the important doctrine of God's sovereignty.
06:23: As we equip ourselves, local churches are equipped, and the body of Christ overall is equipped to deal with the onslaught that we're encountering from the culture.
06:35: Like always, at this, at the national conference, we have just a host of some of the best speakers around the world,
06:43: Josh Bice, Bodhi Bakkam, Stephen Lawson, Paul Washer, Phil Johnson, James White, Mike Riccardi, Justin Peters, Owen Strand, Ken Ham, I mean, the list goes on and on and on.
06:58: We've got more than, we'll have more than 30 speakers, yeah, who will eventually make our gospel, that will be joining us for our event, and so it's going to be an important time for those who want to come and hear the best of preaching and come away with just the sound doctrine of God's sovereignty to join us.
07:19: In addition to all of the preaching, we are going to have, you know, a lot of different events.
07:24: I'm always kind of working with Josh Bice to create unique events and unique fellowship opportunities and the like, and so this is kind of the,
07:34: I'd call this the world's largest family reunion as we gather. We anticipate somewhere in the neighborhood of about 8 ,500 people from within the
07:45: United States and literally around the world that will be joining us, so right now I think our numbers are somewhere in the neighborhood of about 6 ,200, 6 ,300, so we're pushing record numbers for our conference, and again, it's going to be an absolutely amazing time.
08:01: For those who are interested in participating or learning more, you can go to g3min .org, that's
08:08: G -3 -M -I -N, like Mary, Indigo, Nancy, G -3 -M -I -N .org
08:14: to learn more. And don't forget, when you register, use promo code
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08:38: I hope that as many of you who listen to this program will attend, will visit me at my exhibitor booth, and G -3 has always been a wonderful time for me not only to reunite with old friends, but to make new acquaintances, and some of those new acquaintances have become lasting friendships, and even new sponsors of my program, new guests on my program.
09:12: It is always just such a worthwhile experience for me to be manning an exhibitor's booth there.
09:18: I always have a blast, and I'm always disappointed the day that it's over. And so I, and in fact, this,
09:26: I don't see all of those 30 people on your website yet, but everybody who's on your website,
09:33: I have interviewed all of them at some point or another, with the exception of James Coates, and I'm looking forward to getting him on the program if I ever have that opportunity.
09:43: I did interview James Coates' attorney when he was still in jail.
09:49: Yeah, yeah. In fact, it was the day he was being released for not shutting down his church when the
09:59: Canadian government was enforcing that mandate upon worship services, and I was also very delighted that G3 Press had been so generous to donate a copy of James Coates' book to every man that attended my recent
10:26: Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Free Pastors Luncheon, and that was a rich blessing.
10:31: I thank you and everyone at G3 Press, and Scott Annual was the specific brother who put that into action and got me those books.
10:44: So I just, I got a big place in my heart for G3, that's obvious. Yeah, yeah.
10:50: Well, we're happy to do it, and the whole goal of G3 is for the whole purpose of educating and encouraging and equipping the body of Christ with sound biblical doctrine.
11:00: I know our Executive Vice President, Editor -in -Chief Scott Annual was excited to have the opportunity to serve in that way.
11:07: I remember when the request came and he was in his office and wanted to participate in that way, and so we were grateful to do so.
11:15: And that book, by the way, is Preaching and Hearing God's Word by James Coates.
11:22: Well, as I said before, today's conversation involves a very controversial issue.
11:29: Now, it has occurred to me, I've been a Reformed Baptist as long as I have been saved.
11:37: Well, perhaps two months or so after I was saved by the grace and mercy of Christ, I came to embrace the doctrines of sovereign grace.
11:47: Thankfully, I was saved in a Reformed Baptist church. I didn't have to go through years of hearing a false gospel, or other than the fact that I was raised
11:58: Roman Catholic, of course, but I mean, during my years as an evangelical,
12:03: I didn't have to be deprogrammed from a lot of stuff.
12:10: God was very kind to me in his providence that I was saved in a confessional
12:16: Reformed Baptist church. And it has occurred to me that within the last five years, and keep in mind, that was about the mid -1980s when
12:24: I was saved. Over the last five years, it's been amazing how many issues have arisen amongst
12:32: Reformed people, and specifically even Reformed Baptists, that have caused a lot of infighting and splits and heated argument, and unfortunately, ad hominem and mockery coming from all sides of every issue that rises up.
12:57: And I've never seen anything like this amongst the formerly fairly close -knit circles of confessional
13:06: Reformed Baptists before. Yeah. We've always had division of some degree, but one issue after another over the past five years,
13:16: I mean, friendships have been destroyed over some of these divisions. And it boggles my mind why some of these issues would end friendships.
13:28: But we are talking about another one of those issues that has raised the ire of a lot of folks on all sides,
13:37: Christian nationalism. Now, usually when I'm doing a program and we're addressing a specific theme like that,
13:44: I would say, please give us a working definition of Christian nationalism. But unfortunately, you can't just cite one working definition of that.
13:54: That's one of the reasons we're doing the program today, is because there seems to be a broad spectrum of professed adherence of Christian nationalism that don't even agree with each other on a working definition.
14:09: So perhaps give us what you can from your knowledge of this phenomenon, at least a bare minimum of things that are typically found in a list of descriptions of an ideology known as Christian nationalism.
14:29: Yeah, I'd be happy to. I want to go back to something that you mentioned earlier, which is the tendency and the natural inclination for divisions to arise among those who are indeed believers.
14:40: And I think that has been historically true. You know, even as far back as my evangelical experience with the emergent church, you had these young, hip progressives who started out with rather sound kind of biblical doctrine and theology, wanting to get away from more formalized expressions of church worship and the like, and kind of pontificate, if you will, about doctrine, about what the
15:10: Word of God said. And they, for a time, were a force. Those who leaned a little bit more leftward and were a little bit more progressive and who wanted to kind of take a more of a postmodern approach to their understanding of theology would go that direction.
15:29: And so there were good people who we knew that we would see that would take that shift. And then you had another group that kind of young, restless, reformed folks who were trying to figure out how to kind of—they had previously experienced a more feminized form of evangelicalism from the music to the preaching to the softening of every aspect of church experience.
15:53: And their thought was, I want a muscular kind of robust approach to Christianity.
16:00: And so they would follow people like Mark Driscoll and Mars Hill and some of those guys into that direction.
16:07: And then as things began to kind of teeter off, you began to see a division there, even with Mark Driscoll and others who kind of got sideways with people like John MacArthur.
16:16: And so you would see that kind of expression, things separated, and then ultimately where things would land. As I witnessed this next movement, while I make a comparison only to say that groups like that who start out with great relationships with one another and have the tendency to break off often do so as a result of a reaction to what they're seeing in current culture.
16:39: And just like the two previous movements that I mentioned, I don't believe that this current quote -unquote movement is any different in that I think most of them, many of them have just witnessed the rise of, you know,
16:54: Drag Queen Story Hour, right? They've witnessed the rise of the LGBTQ movement in culture.
17:01: They've witnessed the rise of wokeism. And as they've witnessed that and seen that, they're trying to figure out how do we move forward?
17:11: And so their thought is there must be something missing in the church that is allowing that to take place, and we must do something to move forward.
17:19: By the way, I just want to divert from our subject temporarily.
17:26: I just heard from a very credible source while this program has been on the air that someone who
17:36: I highly revered, who I have had on this program at least twice, who has written a glowing, wonderful commendation for Iron Trip and Zion Radio that I will treasure forever.
17:50: Dr. Harry L. Reader was killed in an automobile accident and pronounced dead on the scene.
17:58: Very tragic news, and we will be providing you with more details on future
18:05: Iron Trip and Zion Radio broadcasts, and we will certainly be having, God willing, a tribute program to him since he had such a significant role in the body of Christ as being a powerful, unwavering voice for truth.
18:24: And Harry Reader, who was the senior pastor of Briarwood Presbyterian Church in Birmingham, Alabama.
18:32: I last interviewed him on August 22nd of 2022 on the authority and trustworthiness of scripture, and he will certainly be missed.
18:43: And as I said, we'll keep you folks updated and let you know when we will be airing a tribute program to him.
18:54: And I ask of you all to pray for the Reader family and for that fine congregation,
19:01: Briarwood Presbyterian Church in Birmingham, Alabama, as they have lost a giant whose shoes will never be able to be quite sufficiently filled, as most giants of the church seem to be irreplaceable.
19:20: But we know that he is in a far better place now, and that's just not a rote placard, as people will say very often about the loss to die.
19:32: He or she is in a much better place. We know that Dr. Harry L. Reader certainly is in a much better place.
19:39: I'm going to give our listeners our email address if you have a question on Christian nationalism.
19:46: I would love it if those who are on both sides of this issue were to write in questions.
19:56: Please don't write in speeches. I won't read speeches, but send in questions.
20:03: Whether you affirm Christian nationalism, at least a brand of it, a specific brand of it, or if you are radically opposed to it, or if you just don't know.
20:14: Like many people, I have been seeing over and over again, people who are widely known and highly respected pastors, theologians, scholars, seminary professors, authors, and so on, when it comes to this subject, they are at a loss to be too definitive about it because of the fact that there are different voices within the umbrella of that title,
20:45: Christian nationalism. And so, therefore, there are many people who I know and love and respect who will tell you they don't know if they're a
20:55: Christian nationalist or not. As Votie Baucom said in one of his recent messages at a conference that Founders Ministries orchestrated,
21:09: Votie Baucom said, well, if you ask me if I'm a Christian nationalist, my answer will depend on who you are and why you are asking me that.
21:20: So that may be the case with you. It's I am at a great loss.
21:27: I'm interviewing a guest today that is a lot more knowledgeable on the spectrum of beliefs on this issue than I am.
21:36: And there are things about what I have heard that sound very appealing. And there are other things that make me very nervous, depending upon who is voicing their opinion about it.
21:45: But our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name, at least your city and state and country of residence.
21:54: Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Let's say you are a
22:01: Christian nationalist. You're in a church that is opposed to that ideology or vice versa.
22:07: And you'd rather not identify yourself at this point in time. I understand things like that.
22:12: But if it's a general question, please give us your first name, at least city and state and country of residence. Well, before we go to the first commercial break,
22:20: Virgil, if you could give us some kind of a definition that most, if not all, of the adherence of what is called
22:29: Christian nationalism agree upon in regards to their worldview and their theology and their eschatology and so on.
22:39: Yeah, I think in short, it's difficult to do that, primarily because there is no one definition.
22:45: There are multifaceted definitions. I think there are people who are trying to wrestle with the ideas and issues.
22:53: And I know you're heading into break. I said this in my article. I said, if by Christian nationalism, what is meant is an active form of patriotism where borders are protected, national sovereignty is enforced, and society moves back toward a
23:10: Judeo -Christian ethic, then you could call me a Christian nationalist. However, I think it's important to think through what those two words mean, the words
23:20: Christian and nationalism. When we come back, we can talk about that. I'll also, by way of directly answering your question, give you the definition as written by Stephen Wolfe.
23:30: Stephen Wolfe's a writer of a very voluminous work, 490 pages in his book,
23:38: A Case for Christian Nationalism. He writes this, quote, my definition of Christian nationalism is a
23:46: Christianized form of nationalism, or put differently, a species of nationalism.
23:53: This, he said, thus, I treat nationalism as a genus, meaning that all that is essential to generic nationalism is true of Christian nationalism, end quote.
24:04: And so there you have Stephen Wolfe's definition of Christian nationalism. I, the reason
24:11: I mention him is because within theological circles, his work is the work that most are interacting with because it is a published work.
24:21: Within evangelicalism, there are a myriad of different ideas around that, and people are every day kind of forming their ideas, shaping their ideas, and trying to put forth statements to land the plane on what they believe, why they believe it, and the like.
24:38: And so that'll provide a framework for our conversation. Like, when we get back, I would love to talk through the two words that are trying to be blended together,
24:49: Christian and nationalism. We could unpack that on the other side. And since you mentioned
24:55: Steve Wolfe, I just want to quickly say that there are those who have a high regard for some of the voices within Christian nationalism and are contemplating the adoption of that ideology for themselves who are very opposed, at least in certain cases, with Stephen Wolfe's book.
25:22: Absolutely. So I just don't want anybody to think that he is a monolithic voice for Christian nationalism.
25:29: And perhaps one day he will come on the program to give a rebuttal to this, or we can have perhaps a debate or something like that.
25:37: Sure. But we are going to our first break. The email address for your questions, again, is chrisarnson at gmail .com.
25:45: Give us your first name, at least, your city and state, and your country of residence. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.
25:51: Don't go away. We'll be right back with Virgil Walker of G3 Ministries right after these messages.
26:16: James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here. I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia, again, for the
26:27: G3 National Conference. That's Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd on a theme that I've been preaching, teaching, writing about, and defending in live public debates for most of my life, the sovereignty of God.
26:40: I'll be joined on the speaking roster by Steve Lawson, Vodie Baucom, Paul Washer, Virgil Walker, Scott Anuel, and Josh Bice, founder of G3 Ministries.
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38:21: He is the Executive Director of Operations with G3 Ministries and we are talking about a very controversial theme,
38:32: Christian nationalism. And pick up where you left off, Virgil.
38:37: You are going to get more involved in a description of what we are talking about today. Yeah, yeah.
38:43: I initially kind of led with the definition given by Stephen Wolfe.
38:49: His book, A Case for Christian Nationalism, has really become kind of the gold standard for the theological facet of Christian nationalism.
38:58: And again, that's solely because he's written a 490 -page volume about the topic and subject.
39:04: So it's with that printed material, that printed work that I and others here at G3 have interacted with.
39:12: While again, you mentioned it as we took to break, Stephen Wolfe is not the standard bearer in that he is emblematic, the example of all of quote unquote
39:26: Christian nationalism. But because of the fact that he does have a published work on the subject matter, we took that seriously and reviewed it.
39:35: There are other published pieces, but the work that kind of lands into our lane of Christianity and the like would be
39:45: Wolfe's book. And so that's what we dealt with. I will say this, there are versions of this that differ.
39:52: And you can even categorize some of the ideas around it. You've got everything from what we would call maybe a conservative patriotism, right?
40:03: Those who are conservative patriots to those who are maybe conservative and political with their patriotism.
40:10: Those who are quote unquote Christian nationalists. And then there are brothers who are more theonomist and post -mill and their eschatology and the like who hold to kind of what's being called mere
40:27: Christendom. And so there's a wide variety, a wide range of people that we're dealing with, more of the folks who are more
40:33: Trumpian and where you get a lot of the Trump ideas and that kind of thing.
40:39: Those folks are kind of General Flynn followers and the like, and they're more charismatic and they're large numbers.
40:48: They're the ones who are showing up at rallies and are trying to push Trump across the victory line.
40:53: And again, not to say anything negative about Trump or positive about Trump or affirming in any way, just trying to lay out the landscape of this broad idea known as Christian nationalism.
41:06: But before folks like you and me who are in very serious circles,
41:12: Reformed Baptist circles, particularly, I think it's important for us to step back and look at what this actually is.
41:19: And I think you have to begin at the beginning. If you remember, Chris, when we started looking at Woke Church, things like Woke Church from Eric Mason, and we looked at the social justice movement as it began to enter evangelical circles, and we began to look at CRT, critical race theory, and we actually walked backwards to say, where are these ideas coming from?
41:44: We know that there's nothing new under the sun. So it's important that we go back and see where these ideas germinated from.
41:50: And when we did, we walked all the way back to Karl Marx and the Marxist ideas that began what we know as critical theory.
42:01: And so out of critical theory comes critical race theory. Out of that, we get intersectionality.
42:06: Out of that, we get the movement for social justice. Out of that, we get cries for justice within a particular racial ethnic group, right?
42:15: Black lives then matter, right? And so unfortunately, I think what's happened in evangelical circles is we followed movements, adopted their ideas, branded ourselves with them, only later to find out it probably wasn't the wisest thing in the world to begin parroting things like Black Lives Matter without going back and doing kind of a historical dive into where is this stuff coming from?
42:41: Only later to have the ladies who started the
42:47: Black Lives Matter movement admit that they had been trained Marxists. And so then we had to go back and say, okay, what does that mean?
42:54: In the same way, I think it's important before we adopt quote -unquote
42:59: Christian nationalism to go back and understand what is nationalism.
43:06: And so I wanted us to do that. I wanted to go back and do that. So I wrote a piece about this subject matter.
43:13: You can find it at g3men .org. And the title of the article is The Dangerous Intersection of Christian Nationalism and Ethnocentrism.
43:23: Now, folks have kind of given me flag for using the term ethnocentrism. Some believe that I think that ethnocentrism is equivalent to racism.
43:32: I wanna categorically say that that is not true at all. Ethnocentrism is a central focus on an ethnic group.
43:41: There's nothing inherently sinful about focusing on a particular ethnic group, but there can be something sinful about focusing on a particular ethnic group.
43:50: So I think we need to pause and talk about that. That's as it relates to the actual title of the article.
43:57: As it pertains to nationalism, nationalism for the most part is defined in this way.
44:05: And again, just defining our terms. Nationalism is an ideology that emphasizes loyalty, devotion, or allegiance to a nation or nation state and holds that such obligations outweigh other individual interests.
44:24: So in other words, when you think about nationalism, nationalism in and of itself considers a nation an entity of itself with values, ideas, and interests that actually supersede those of an individual group.
44:39: That's important to know. And the reason why that's important to know as it pertains to the word nationalism is this, we live in a democratic republic.
44:50: And one of the things that the founders embedded into our constitution is the idea of individual rights and that individuals are innately endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
45:06: But what nationalism does is nationalism says, apart from your individual rights, the nation has a say in how those rights, if you have individual rights and your rights as individualistic as they may be, do not supersede the rights of a nation.
45:25: Now, in most instances, if your values align with the nation's values, this is not problematic.
45:32: However, if your ideas get out of step with what the nation says is right, just, and true, then you run into great problems and traumatic error.
45:42: Most people have never, or a lot of people, I should say, a number of people have never really studied what's taken place in Europe and the different nationalistic movements and what's known as the
45:55: Volk Geist, the V -O -L -K Geist, right? This is the ethnic nationalism that permeated
46:02: Germany right before World War II. And it actually laid the groundwork for what would follow next as a result of ethnic nationalism.
46:15: The ethnic nationalism in Germany made it very easy for that nation to feel like anyone that did not identify either ethnically or nationally with ethnic
46:26: Germany, they were to be othered, they were outsiders, they were castaways, and things could be done differently to them than were other people that were a part of the ethnic
46:38: German nationalist movement there. So it's with those ideas in mind that we've got to ask the question, if we add the word
46:45: Christian to the word nationalism, does it, is nationalism bettered by it?
46:54: Is it made better? In other words, when I think about what's been done with the word socialism, right?
47:01: We had AOC who's used the term democratic socialism as if the democratic word attached to socialism actually makes the socialism any better.
47:14: We've got to ask the same question as Christians. Does adding the word Christian to the word nationalism better nationalism?
47:22: Now, I don't believe the vast majority of people out there who are watching our society and its ethics crumble to the ground are thinking in these terms.
47:34: I really believe that for the most part, the average Joe person every day saying, hey, if being a Christian nationalist means
47:40: I'm fighting against this woke culture that tells me that a man is a woman and a woman is a man, or that tells me that I've got to cut off my kids' body parts in order to affirm the identity of their choosing at the beginning or end of the day, then
47:58: I'm for Christian nationalism. And before we pragmatically adopt that idea, it's imperative that we push the brakes and pause and ask some very important questions about what we're adopting as a name.
48:13: Does that make sense? Oh yeah, it makes perfect sense. And let me just quickly insert here something that might be on the minds of listeners who find the idea of Christian nationalism very appealing if they're not already robust defenders of this concept and who wear that identity very proudly.
48:40: Every Christian, to my knowledge, when we go to ballot boxes and we vote, we would love to see in that voting booth options that were men of God that we had confidence that they were truly regenerate, that they shared the core essentials of our biblical theology.
49:07: And we would think that that would be a gift from God. No matter what office we are voting for, from the lowliest of local offices to the president of the
49:20: United States. And wouldn't it be amazing and wonderful if God sent a blessing to this country where the president of the
49:29: United States was a genuine born -again Christian and most of the governors and mayors and senators and congressmen were born -again people.
49:38: And we were governing this nation according to God's law and God's will.
49:46: And to just put it in the caveat here, and I'm not speaking of an ecclesiocracy where a specific denomination has rule, where we see what tragically happened in our past when
50:01: Pato Baptists martyred Anabaptists and Baptists, martyred them very often with gruesome and torturous deaths.
50:10: So I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about where a recognition that God's law and will are the best and we should have a nation governed by those principles.
50:21: So just respond to that because I'm assuming that that would be on the mind of anyone who is looking favorably upon Christian nationalism.
50:30: No, I would say yes and amen to all of that, Chris. I've coauthored a book about that called
50:38: Just Thinking About the State where as a result of the book, I'm informing true believers not to leave their
50:46: Bible at the church or at home when they go to the voting booth. I'm telling believers in Christ that their decisions about their government and the choices that they make would be informed by having a robust biblical worldview.
51:05: And so as you well know, I've been very active in speaking out about issues like abortion, speaking against abortion, about providing, making sure that the civil magistrate put laws into place that protect the life of the unborn, that they would enjoy equal protection as those who are living outside of the womb, as those who live inside the womb.
51:32: And so I am for all of those things. Yet and still, I don't have to be,
51:38: I don't have to call myself a Christian nationalist in order to engage in that behavior.
51:46: I'm just being a faithful believer in Christ living out what God says in his word about how
51:53: I should engage the culture as a result of a life as a believer. I think the difference is this,
52:00: Chris. I think there's a difference between a believer in Christ who comes to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.
52:07: Their heart has been transformed by the power of the gospel. They have made a decision to live their lives in a way that honors
52:13: God. And they decide to live in every sphere of life in that way informed by that worldview.
52:20: I think there's a difference between that person and someone who says, I am in favor of not an inward out, not a transformed heart in and an outward working, but someone who says,
52:32: I want government to produce the conditions to enforce that kind of behavior throughout the nation.
52:41: And here's what I mean. So let me put some meat on the bones of this. I mentioned Stephen Wolf's book earlier.
52:47: It's called A Case for Christian Nationalism. In fact, could you pick up right when we return from our midway break?
52:54: Please be patient with us, folks. The midway break is always a bit longer than the other breaks because Grace Life Radio 90 .1
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53:55: And send in your questions to Virgil Walker on Christian Nationalism to chrisarnson at gmail .com. We'll be right back after these messages.
54:01: Don't go away. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.
54:18: I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend, Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again for the
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54:40: I'll be joined on the speaking roster by Steve Lawson, Vody Baucom, Paul Washer, Virgil Walker, Scott Anuel and Josh Bice, founder of G3 Ministries.
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56:59: Dr. Joe Moorcraft. I'm Joe Reilly, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron radio listener here in Atai in County Kildare, Ireland.
57:07: Going back to 2005, one of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is
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57:37: Joe Moorcraft is the author of an eight -volume commentary on the larger catechism. Heritage is a member of the
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01:12:05: That's also the email address where you could send in a question to Virgil Walker on Christian nationalism
01:12:11: And that's chrisarnson at gmail .com Give us your first name at least your city and state and country of residence
01:12:17: Before I go to any of our listener questions Virgil, I would like for you to continue the thread that you began before we went to the midway break
01:12:26: Yeah, absolutely I was just sharing with based upon your question You know, should you know, should
01:12:32: Christians be informed as they enter the polling booth as they as they think about their their governing leaders as they think about the civil magistrate
01:12:44: Wouldn't they want that person to uphold biblical ideas and biblical standards
01:12:49: And I just made the case that, you know, I've written a book about that I've co -authored a book with Daryl Harrison about that called
01:12:54: Just Thinking About the State So absolutely Yes and amen Christians should be fully informed by holding a biblical worldview
01:13:04: Not leaving that at the church door or or at their home You know, leaving their
01:13:09: Bible at home before entering the polling booth No, absolutely not We should all of our all of our biblical worldview our biblical worldview rather should inform every decision that we make as it relates to governance
01:13:23: With that said, I think there's a difference between a Christian transformed by the power of God heart desires to follow him who's living out that biblical worldview that gospel centered focus in home life and family life that they're part of a local church and that they're living that out in every sphere
01:13:43: There's a difference between that which I would call bottom up, right? A transformed heart informing a life that's transformed by family informing a life that's transformed by a local church impacting the public square
01:13:56: I think there's a difference between that and governance from the top down Someone who's saying that we want to have a nation establish itself as Christian and thereby from a federal standpoint push the ideas of Christianity throughout the country regardless of others' beliefs
01:14:17: Now, again, that sounds very dramatic almost like hyperbole
01:14:22: Nobody's going to force people to be Christian in a Christian nation and perhaps that may well be true
01:14:27: But as I look at Stephen Wolfe's project as it relates to Christian nationalism he says this in his book
01:14:33: He says this, quote The question is whether a Christian magistrate having civil rule of civil society having civil rule over a civil society of Christians may punish civil power false teachers heretics blasphemers and idolaters for external expressions of such things in order to prevent one, any injury to the souls of the people of God two, the subversion of Christian governance
01:15:05: Christian culture or spiritual discipline and three, civil disruption or unrest
01:15:12: Wolfe says this Modern religious liberty advocates deny this and I, Wolfe, that is, affirm it
01:15:19: And so what he's affirming here is that the civil magistrate would determine who false teachers are who heretics are who blasphemers are and punish them using civil power that they would determine what is a quote -unquote injury to the souls of the people of God, end quote and they would punish that person with the use of government and civil magistrates power
01:15:43: The question then becomes this if that's what we're advocating for in a Christian nation
01:15:49: The question is who gets to define who is or is not a false teacher or a heretic or a blasphemer
01:15:56: There are some in my circles I would say that those who promote the prosperity gospel that they're heretics
01:16:04: Well, if my brand of Christian nationalism is in play does that mean that that we could perhaps put in jail
01:16:12: Creflo Dollar that we would put in jail Benny Hinn that we would put in jail that we would impose the civil government the civil magistrate to do something from a standpoint of exerting civil power to punish these people who are promoting different ideas
01:16:30: The question then must be asked Will the Baptists decide this? Will the Presbyterians decide this?
01:16:37: And then what do you do in a society like ours with people who are Mormons or Catholics or Muslims?
01:16:43: How do you respond to them in a Christian nation? And if we determine that Christianity is now a state religion how will others
01:16:54: Muslims per se express their version of faith? Now while Wolfe's book admits that they can hold these ideas they can hold the ideas that are contrary to a biblical worldview they cannot express those in any kind of public way
01:17:11: So religious liberty would absolutely be abandoned and we would have to really take a closer look at the
01:17:19: First Amendment and talk about government -imposed nationalism which tells us that the nation has its own church and that we are to operate from that framework
01:17:35: So that's kind of how that all plays itself out Those are questions And again, there are some who call themselves
01:17:42: Christian nationalists who have worked that out And there are others who have not worked those issues out
01:17:49: And I think it bears while there are those who are excited about Christian nationalism and say, oh,
01:17:54: Virgil that's just hyperbole Nobody is going to do that Nobody's going to punish in that way Nobody's going to operate in that way
01:18:01: You're mistaken All I'm doing is reading the words of Stephen Wolfe who has presented his case for Christian nationalism
01:18:10: And I'm simply asking questions about these things And I think to ask the question is fair I think it's fair I think it's fair for us to put the brakes on before we eradicate aspects of the
01:18:25: Constitution, of amendments and such that we push the pause button and ask some honest questions that cause us to think through these issues
01:18:35: We don't have to separate as brothers to do this You're on the wrong side of history
01:18:41: We don't have to engage in the kind of rhetoric that causes great division I think we can amicably, honestly ask and answer these questions and think through whether or not we want to embrace these ideas
01:18:55: Yes, what Stephen Wolfe said I don't know if he would agree with what
01:19:02: I'm about to say But it just sounds too close to what I mentioned earlier ecclesiocracy as opposed to a theocracy where you're taking the specific doctrines of a specific denomination and if they were to rule a nation you know, you might have people once again like Baptists facing very severe persecution as we have suffered in the past not only from Roman Catholic but primarily from fellow
01:19:41: Protestants Right And there have been really gruesome and nightmarish descriptions of how
01:19:51: Anabaptists and Baptists have been treated by brothers in Christ who shared the same gospel with these men
01:20:03: Just because of a difference of opinion on the ecclesiastical matters and especially on the issue of infant baptism a rejection of infant baptism by these
01:20:14: Anabaptists and Baptists But we do have a couple of listeners who want to have your
01:20:23: I want to have you answer their questions We have Grady wonderful brother in Christ who is an avid listener to Iron Trip and Zion Radio and a generous supporter of the program who
01:20:34: I met for the first time face to face at a G3 conference years ago Greetings brothers
01:20:40: Virgil I heard our brother Voti Baucom on the Sword and Trowel podcast say that we need to put the word white before Christian nationalism because the
01:20:51: CRT woke Marxist movement is using this word to shut out white people and Christians from having a voice in our country
01:21:00: I appreciate the question I think that what's happening I think what Voti was referring to is as you look back on this movement the first kind of rumblings of it were around 2017, 2018 and Christian nationalism was a pejorative it was aimed to shut down dialogue and what was really meant by the use of the word
01:21:22: Christian nationalism in 2017, 2018 was quote unquote white Christian nationalism Now there is a version of Christian nationalism that is very ethnocentric
01:21:32: I would even go so far as to say it is indeed racist and its aim is to advance the cause of the white man and they make no bones about that truth be told
01:21:42: I appreciate the honesty of those who hold that view I'd prefer them come flat out and say
01:21:49: I'm a white Christian nationalist than cloud the idea in quote unquote Christian nationalism and still hold to those same ideas that said
01:21:57: I think what Voti was particularly in that instance referring to is that most of the media, the news media, right were using
01:22:09: Christian nationalism and what they really meant to say was white Christian nationalism and all of that was just in an effort to shut down dialogue and what has happened since then in the advent of George Floyd after wokeism has taken on such a big part of culture is this response by those who are
01:22:33: Christian who are saying if you're going to say that I'm a white Christian nationalist or you're going to use the term
01:22:40: Christian nationalist as a pejorative I'm going to wear it as a badge of honor and I'm going to use it for my own purposes
01:22:48: I think that's a mistaken idea I think that is problematic on numerous fronts but regardless of what
01:22:57: I think those who are even in evangelical circles those who are in conservative Christian circles are saying
01:23:03: I'm going to take the term that they meant to be bad I'm going to take it dust it off and wear it and my response to that would simply be let's pause before we cape up with a label and think through what we're actually putting on and wearing again, those who embrace the social justice movement were
01:23:25: Christians who thought I'm for justice so why wouldn't I be for social justice or I'm for the fact that lives matter so why wouldn't black lives matter and what they began to find is as they began to embrace these ideas given to them by the culture they had problems associated with them my argument is that this
01:23:47: Christian nationalism while on one end sounds right who doesn't like to be Christian?
01:23:53: on the other end hey, if by nationalist you mean I think that America is the greatest country that God ever created then call me a
01:24:02: Christian nationalist but we've got to pause and find out do a deeper dive and ask the question what is actually being meant by nationalism what does it mean historically and should we should this be a moniker that we embrace just in an effort to irritate folks that are on the left well, thank you,
01:24:22: Grady and keep listening to Iron Trip and Zion Radio and spreading the word about the program there in Asheboro, North Carolina and beyond look forward to seeing you at the
01:24:34: G3 conference in September we have Johnny from Queens, New York Virgil, if the condition to enforce the law of God as normative cultural ethic as commanded by Christ is fulfilled by regenerated biblical
01:24:54: Christians civil magistrates and not by an unbelieving government would that be biblically reasonable and he quotes and Jesus came and spoke to them saying all authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth go therefore and make disciples teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you and lo,
01:25:16: I am with you always even to the end of the age from Matthew chapter 28 verses 18 through 20 yeah no,
01:25:24: I think that's a fair question I'd have no problem with that as a secondary outgrowth of what's taking place in the hearts of believers and so our first and primary responsibility is to go therefore into the world, right preaching the gospel proclaiming the truth of God baptizing men in the name of the
01:25:45: Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit teaching them to obey the commandments right and Christ commands that he would be with us always even to the end of the age so I'd have no problem with our primary focus being one of evangelism and as a result of that seeing transformed hearts and lives and as a result of that seeing those who have those transformed heart and lives desire to function in every facet of government and the like I would absolutely applaud that cheer that on before that that's exactly what
01:26:18: I endeavor to do on a day -to -day basis and whenever government gets outside the bounds of what's right moral, good, holy
01:26:25: I think the church and those of us who are believers have a responsibility to have a prophetic voice and to declare that truth to the state, to government what
01:26:36: I'm not in favor of is the idea that our primary mission as believers is to ensure that we have a quote -unquote
01:26:44: Christian nation from the top down that's what I don't advocate so then judging from what you said if you were to observe some country in Europe they elect a leader or leaders that are bible -believing
01:27:03: Christians from everything that you can see and hear you have confidence these are actually regenerate people who are faithfully following the word of Christ and they publicly pronounce that they are now a
01:27:22: Christian nation and you see as time progresses that they're actually living that out truthfully they are not persecuting people of other ecclesiastical groups than the one they personally possess in fact perhaps the leadership is comprised of people from Baptist and Presbyterian and Anglican and Lutheran groups or what have you uh you would be not crying out for the dismantling of this nation as it existed as a
01:27:54: Christian nation would you? if they if they if by Christian nation what they intended was was something in addition to the system and structure we have in place now where there are different where there's fierce sovereignty where the state is not attempting to come into the realm of the church and now as as a quote -unquote
01:28:14: Christian nation tell the church that uh we have a we have a crisis called
01:28:19: COVID and as a result we are indeed a Christian nation and as a Christian ruler who loves
01:28:25: Christ I'm telling the church that the church must now do what you know close its doors and we do that in the name of our
01:28:34: Christian nation I think we have problems so I I want to I want to always pump the brakes when we're when when we when we desire the the the the idea rather than than the reality in other words many times we want to we want to hear someone say
01:28:53: I'm a quote -unquote Christian nation I was you mentioned Voti earlier
01:28:59: Voti talked about that you know where he is in Africa and that the nation that he's in on their constitution they have the fact that they're a
01:29:08: Christian nation it's stated it's clear it's titled everyone knows it and that most of the people in the country would much rather have the practical implications of that Christianity permeated throughout their their culture more so than just the title on a on a on a constitutional framework and I agree with him
01:29:30: I'm more concerned that each and every individual lives out a life that that is reflective of of the gospel of Christ permeating their heart that they in that they invest in in laws within the sphere of their sovereignty that honor
01:29:46: God that point to God that that enable us to have freedom of speech I'm more concerned with that with that from a standpoint of its practice than I am concerned that on some billboard somewhere or or on some on some document somewhere we just watch the coronation of the king of England right they when if you watch the coronation there was the church and the state were combined you know the the the the king is is a is a
01:30:20: Christian king and he's got all the all the vestments of that and so we can get caught up in in the in titles names and and and imagery what's more important is is is the true conversion of the heart and that it has impact on culture from the inside out yeah in fact that is a glowing example that if a nation were to be come identified as a
01:30:45: Christian nation there's going to be no guarantee that the progeny of those in leadership of this
01:30:52: Christian nation those that are elected in the office in the future are going to be regenerate and even if they carry on in perpetuity until Christ returns the identity identity of a
01:31:07: Christian nation like England uh has today it's a farce because even when you had from what
01:31:19: I have heard from people who know better than I do especially those who are from the UK they the people that I know and respect who knew anything about Queen Elizabeth were very confident if not certain that she was a genuine born -again bible -believing woman even though she was the queen uh you have
01:31:42: England being a theological sewer I mean that you have mosques rising up at a far greater speed and frequency than Christian churches and you have
01:31:55: Christian churches being used by Muslims and you have sodomy and all of the most scandalous and damnable evils of prohibited by the scripture reigning over there so I mean the fact that they would call themselves a
01:32:13: Christian nation and go through the pomp and ceremony of it is really meaningless today in the 21st century absolutely absolutely it's something that that we need to stop and think about I I get the uh the the the idea of wanting the reactionary response to wokeism being codified into law
01:32:31: I get that I totally get that our that our natural response is to push back and say well if they if they can do that then we can do this
01:32:39: I totally get and understand that uh but but we we have a kingdom which is Christ and and we have a responsibility to represent it and the way that we do is is through gospel proclamation uh inside out bottom up uh rather than rather than this dictatorial top -down imposing of uh of the idea of Christian nationalism or the idea of a
01:33:01: Christian nation and name and title uh for for for what purpose and ends you know
01:33:06: I I don't know again there are great thinkers who have thought through these issues my goal is not to simply say you know uh that that they that there's not a place for those who want to embrace
01:33:18: Christian nationalism that there's no place for them in the body of Christ that's not the point I'm making I'm simply saying that before we all cape up and embrace this idea as our primary effort energy and goal that we pump the brakes take some time examine definitions and look to see if biblically speaking there's a there's an example in scripture that we can point to that shows us that our primary that our primary objective is to create a
01:33:47: Christian nation I'm going to read a listener question and have you answer it when we return from our final break it's amazing how fast the time has gone
01:33:57: I think this may demand a part two I don't know if you agree with me but I would love to have you back we have
01:34:03: Cindy in Findlay, Ohio good evening Virgil and Chris I am not well versed in Christian nationalism or theonomy but from what little
01:34:13: I know it seems as though theonomists would be the most avid proponents of Christian nationalism how far off am
01:34:21: I? Did you hear that Virgil?
01:34:27: I did, I did I didn't know if you wanted me to answer that after the break oh that's right I am 61 and I'm forgetting what
01:34:33: I just said seconds ago we'll be right back with your answer to that right after these messages so don't go away folks
01:34:57: James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again for the
01:35:08: G3 National Conference that's Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd on a theme that I have been preaching teaching, writing about and defending in live public debates for most of my life the sovereignty of God I'll be joined on the speaking roster by Steve Lawson Paul Washer Virgil Walker Scott Anuel and Josh Bice founder of G3 Ministries and there's more great news
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01:51:09: September 15th, 16th and 17th Dr. James R. White who will also be at the
01:51:15: G3 conference on the speaking roster he will be conducting a conference that I have orchestrated with my friends at the
01:51:22: Mid -Atlantic Reformation Society so put those dates down on your calendar September 15th, 16th and 17th all we know right now is that the conference will likely be held in Lancaster, Pennsylvania we're working on a debate with an advocate of wokeism we don't know for certain if that will happen but we will keep you updated on the theme and location of this conference with Dr.
01:51:47: James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries September 15th, 16th and 17th in Pennsylvania please mark your calendars we're now back with Virgil Walker and Virgil let me reread the question that our listener asked
01:52:03: Cindy in Findlay, Ohio she says it seems as though theonomists would be the most avid proponents of Christian nationalism how far off am
01:52:14: I? I think she's right I'll say this right now as it pertains to the
01:52:22: Christian nationalist movement those who are embracing the ideas of Christian nationalism most of them are theonomists but at the same time there are those who are theonomists who don't embrace that moniker and would much rather stand firm with their theological convictions about the matter and so you have
01:52:49: Doug Wilson for example who's written a book called Mere Christendom and in the book he walks through you know his theological framework which he's you know it's a lane it's an idea that he's stood on for decades right so while Christian nationalism is a new you know new iteration of this idea theonomy is not theonomy has been around for a long time and I think those who really want to embrace it from a theological standpoint do so and have done so well it's just been in this last you know three to five years and I primarily attribute the
01:53:30: Christian nationalism movement to a reaction to wokeism and rightfully so in many instances but it's more of a reactionary movement in my estimation rather than one that that has had a long you know history of convictions based upon scripture and the like so I would differentiate you know some of my brothers you know the guys who the
01:53:58: Jeff Durbin's of the world the guys who the you know the chocolate Knox's of the world our dear friends in Moscow some of those guys are you know are theonomists have been post mill and their eschatology for decades have been advancing their cause in such ways those who are embracing
01:54:17: Christian nationalism are looking for more of a top -down governmental approach to what they're trying to advance and so that's where that's where I think even those on the side of theonomy would differ on that one point well it's interesting
01:54:35: I've had Doug Wilson on my show and he has shocked many in my audience because he denies being a theonomist
01:54:44: I think it may be a matter of semantics with him then sometimes he will also say that he's a
01:54:49: I think he says a Westminster theonomist or something like that a Westminster confession theonomist but he does not want to identify himself with the broader movement of theonomy but somebody who has recently become a theonomist
01:55:06: Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries a mutual friend of ours he is vociferously in disagreement with Stephen Wolfe's book so he whether or not he ever calls himself a
01:55:19: Christian nationalist he certainly is not identifying with that brand of it yeah there's some real problems with Stephen Wolfe's book and I outlined those in greater detail in the article that I penned which
01:55:36: I would encourage many to go check out it's on the G3 Ministries website g3men .org
01:55:43: it's called The Dangerous Intersection of Christian Nationalism and Ethnocentrism and so if you have time go by g3men .org
01:55:54: check out the blog you can either type in dangerous intersection of Christian nationalism or type in my name and the article
01:56:01: I read it to a listener or they can read it for themselves so you can listen or read the article at your leisure we have an anonymous listener the last one we have time for a question from anonymous listener says
01:56:16: I feel myself becoming more and more inclined to embracing a form of Christian nationalism and I was just wondering what your thoughts are on this the most impressive explanation to the situation at hand regarding Christian nationalism that I have heard is that everyone is a theological or religious nationalist and your choice is boiling down to either being a
01:56:44: Christian nationalist or letting the pagans run this world with their religion as much as they declare that they are not theonomists or believing in a theocracy those in the left do have a religion of their own in spite of what they call it what is your opinion on that?
01:57:07: Sure, I think there are a lot of people who desire to attach themselves to movements like this and to connect with tribes everybody wants to be connected to something and movements like this have great appeal and so my movement is the movement of Christ it's been his movement has not changed has not shifted doesn't need a new title
01:57:32: I'm a believer in Christ the things that I stand for I've been standing for since I came into a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ I'll stand for those things for a long time thereafter
01:57:45: I'm not concerned with what title you give me I'm concerned about truth I'm concerned about professing it proclaiming it and I think anyone who knows me or the ministries that I've been connected with while I've never embraced a term like Christian nationalism they would definitely recognize that I do stand for the cause and sacred
01:58:04: Christ yesterday, today and will continue to as long as the Lord gives me breath in my lungs
01:58:10: I'll vote in ways that honor God I'll speak to civil magistrates in ways that proclaim the truths of God I'll speak to political parties in the same way
01:58:21: I don't need to identify myself with an organization or a group of people who are still trying to figure out their own definitions while they're doing that and trying to look for that and figure those pieces out
01:58:32: I'll continue doing what I've always done which is stand for the cause and sacred Christ and proclaim the gospel
01:58:38: Don't forget folks to register for the G3 conference coming up September 21st through the 23rd in Atlanta, Georgia I will be there manning an exhibitor's booth there will be at least 30 speakers on the roster go to g3men .org
01:58:54: g3men .org and please when registering use promo code G3ISIR G3ISIR which stands for Iron Sharpens Iron Radio G3ISIR Thank you so much