April 26, 2022 Show with Doran Wray on “Introducing ‘Sola Scriptura’ to Mennonites”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century Gospel Minister George Norcross in downtown

Carwile, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron.

This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues

facing the Church and the world today.

Proverbs 27, verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens

another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to

have a view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with

your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the

planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this

26th day of April, 2022.

And I'm thrilled to have a first -time guest today who I have grown to know and

really highly value as a minister of the gospel locally

here in the Cumberland County, Perry County, Pennsylvania area.

His name is Doran Ray.

He is senior pastor of Church of the Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania.

That's a church you've been hearing about a lot lately on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio because it was

the hosting church of my most recent Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Pastors Luncheon

featuring Dan Buttafuoco of the Historical Bible Society as my guest speaker.

And we had a terrific turnout at this event.

And also, we have been promoting on the show the 2022 Reason

for Belief Apologetics Conference that will also be held at Church of the Living Christ in Loisville,

Pennsylvania.

We'll be hearing more about that again today.

And today, Doran Ray's main theme is going to be Introducing Sola

Scriptura to a Region Dominated by Mennonite Presuppositions.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Doran

Ray.

Good afternoon, Chris.

Thank you for having me on.

Oh, it's my pleasure.

And I have to keep commending you for the wonderful

time I had at my own Pastors Luncheon at your church.

I was just blown away by the facility itself and also even more blown away

by the hospitality shown by members of your congregation who volunteered,

including teenagers and younger people who were busing tables and serving

and really a wonderful

rallying of support in regards to labor by members of your

congregation, including the ladies of your congregation.

And I want to really thank you again for extending that invitation to me to host

the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Pastors Luncheon at your church facility.

It was remarkable, and I look forward to many events in the future, God willing.

Yeah, we have wanted to connect with you for years, and it's just been great that

God has so arranged for us to get to know each other this last year.

And it was a real pleasure to do that for you.

And actually, part of the organization for that day was

the church.

Amen.

Amen.

And I can't wait for September 22nd when, God willing, we're going to have

Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries speaking at your church for

the next Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Pastors Luncheon and also at the following Sunday service,

God willing, at your congregation.

That's the great hope.

Yes.

And anybody listening, first of all, if you're a man in ministry leadership, pastor,

elder, and by the way, I think that's the same office, deacon, parachurch leader, if you're a man in

ministry leadership, you are invited to this free Pastors Luncheon on Thursday, September

22nd, 11 a .m. to 2 p .m. at Church of the Living Christ, featuring Dr.

James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries.

And Church of the Living Christ is located in Lloydsville in Perry County, Pennsylvania.

And I hope that as many of you as possible will attend.

And if you are interested in attending, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at

gmail .com, and put Pastors Luncheon in the subject line.

Why don't you also tell us about your upcoming Reason for Belief

Apologetics Conference.

Yeah, absolutely.

So that's the weekend of May the 20th.

We have Dr. Joe Green, who is also an elder here at the church, who will be giving.

And

really,

in a

sense,

so we

see it.

Amen.

And if you want to hear the two interviews I did with the two speakers

at the upcoming Reason for Belief Apologetics Conference, David Swartz, an

elder at Church of the Living Christ in Lloydsville, and Dr. Joe Green, who is

pastor of St. Paul's Missionary Baptist Church in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, you can go to the Iron

Sharpens Iron website archive, ironsharpensironradio .com, click on

Past Shows Podcast, and you will see those

interviews right near the top.

You can also type in Swartz, S

-W -A -R -T -Z, and David Swartz's interview will come up.

And you can type in Green for Dr. Joe Green, and his interview

will come up.

And I thought they both did excellent jobs.

Yeah, I would agree.

And tell us a little bit more about Church of the Living Christ in Lloydsville.

Okay, so Church of the Living Christ is a Bible church, independent Bible church, of a

Baptistic nature, probably most in common with Reformed Baptism.

And then, once again, that website is churchofthelivingchrist .cc,

churchofthelivingchrist .cc, and we will be announcing that later on in the program.

Well, we have a tradition here on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Doran, where whenever we

have a first -time guest on the program, that guest gives a summary of their salvation

testimony.

It would include the type of religious atmosphere, if any, they were raised in,

and what kind of providential circumstances our Sovereign Lord raised up in their lives that drew them to

himself and saved them.

So I would love to hear your story.

Yeah, so I grew up in a Southern Baptist church.

The

gospel

was

very

dull.

I

walked away at

52 years old.

And every year with the Lord gets better.

Every moment gets more exciting.

And I have loved every bit of it.

A mediocre...

Well, you've got to tell me what were the circumstances, even

in more detail, that a 16 -year -old boy realized he had a call to the pastoral

ministry.

You don't hear about that too often.

In fact, the only time that has

quickly, instantly entered into my mind where I have heard that was with the 19th century Prince

of Preachers, Charles Haddon Spurgeon, who actually must have been earlier than that because he was a pastor already when he

was 16.

Right.

But tell us about what was it that made you really believe that you had the calling of God

to stand behind that sacred desk, declare the Word of God

publicly to a congregation, a flock of Christ's sheep, and also

to be an under -shepherd for one of Christ's flocks.

Well, you know, Chris, I have always considered that the dullest part of the story, but to hear you recount it there makes me

so excited.

It's sort of special.

But no, it was just the result of discipleship.

I had a very good assistant pastor named Randy Hamrick who put

time in it.

And they, over time, just believed that I was called to ministry and encouraged me to explore that.

And I spent about six months in study of God's

Word, doing ministry and studying with those

guys.

And suddenly one

day, to my

own plan, I had actually planned on being a doctor and was headed in that direction because, you know, I was from

a home that was a bit...

I had wanted to be wealthy, to be wealthy and still of use

to people with...

Praise God.

One other question I have for you, because I usually ask this, if indeed the

man I am interviewing, or woman that I'm interviewing, has come to embrace

and cherish and declare and proclaim the doctrines known as the

doctrines of sovereign grace, a .k .a. Reformed theology, a .k .a.

Calvinism, a .k .a. the doctrines of free grace.

We could go on and on with labels and nicknames.

But how did you come to discover these truths and embrace them

and make a conscious effort to make it a

focal point in your exposition of the Scriptures and your proclamation of the Gospel?

Yes, so I

came committed in that direction.

But simply put, if you study the Bible long enough, you

wind up

believing the five...

I find myself sometimes...

If you study the Scripture,

my people here, and

they are exactly...

Yes, and I fell in love with that doctrine too, and I'm not going to

repeat all of the details, because I don't want too many of my listeners to roll their eyes,

thinking in their minds, here he goes again, because I've repeated this so many times.

But I came to embrace the doctrines of grace when a

British member of the congregation where I was saved, when

he found out that I was having great difficulty embracing Calvinism

and was actually quite opposed to the key doctrines that separate it from

other theological systems.

He gave me a booklet, reprinted by Chapel Library,

called George Whitefield's Letter to John Wesleyan Election.

And I read that, and my first reaction was, oh no,

this is true, but I still hate it.

And then came to, in about a month's time or so, fall madly in love with the

teachings, because it revolutionized my understanding of the

intimacy involved in God's love for

me specifically, and his dying for me specifically, rather than

a nameless, faceless sea of humans that he died hoping to save.

He died for me and finished and accomplished his mission.

God does not work with collectives.

That message is all over Scripture.

But truthfully, if you're raised in an Arminian background, you find the same dynamic

that is very often the case.

Once you've tasted Arminianism, when you come to

doubly committed...

Well, we have an interesting subject today

that may have left those who saw the promotion of it scratching their

heads.

Introducing sola scriptura to a region dominated by Mennonite presuppositions.

And there may be people saying, wait a minute, the sola scriptura is a

pillar, a watchword, a battle cry of the Protestant Reformation, and Mennonites

are heirs of the Reformation.

In fact, they refer to themselves and others refer to them as radical reformers.

Why did you want to address this issue specifically in regard

to the Mennonites?

And I know that has something to do with one of your

dissertations that you wrote, and perhaps you could share with our listeners the exact theme of that

dissertation, which, as you know, when you first told me, made me chuckle because it seems like a contradiction

in terms.

But if you could, share with us.

I sure will.

Yeah, so the title of the dissertation, The Amish as an Example of Hyper

-Conservatism, a

term that I use extensively.

If you're liberal there, you are in fact liberal

there.

Now, my first in

Virginia,

religious liberalism there, and religious liberalism in the Christian

circle is identified by four distinctives in epistemology and hermeneutic

that the Bible cannot be understood ordinarily, that it can't be read for what it says, but you

need something to intervene.

And so you don't know what it means, or you

correct the errors that the Bible just cannot be on its own

objectively.

You tend to hobby.

Related to that

is people can

point

to any evangelical

Lutheran,

and

you'll

find

all

through

their

Bibles,

that

the Bible is true.

But what's the point?

In fact, I know from interviewing former Amish men who have come to

Christ and the true gospel, I have discovered that adults

in the Amish world are forbidden to own and read English Bibles.

They have to own a German Bible.

I believe it's Martin Luther's translation, if I'm not mistaken.

And the irony is that the Amish don't speak German.

They have a dialect of German that is not readable in authentic,

classic German.

And so therefore, you have people owning Bibles that they can't even read.

Right.

And what you wind up with there is the same dynamic that Martin Luther battled.

He could not read and understand the Scriptures for themselves because they did not understand Latin.

And so the Reformers were busy.

In the language of the people, you have Amish people who cannot read the language

and are not permitted to read it in the language.

He bought one pope.

That's really where they are.

And unless you...

I was going to ask you to differentiate between Amish and Mennonite, but if you

don't want to break a train of thought that you just had because you were about to say something...

No, I can distinguish between them.

And really, it's actually...

I've even heard that there is a community of Amish in Japan.

Yes, Dave, it's from the U .S.

But

Mennonite

is

now, which no longer holds...

And I have heard, and perhaps I have heard incorrectly, that there are

Mennonites.

You described them as conservative in regard to

the moral and social aspects of conservatism.

But I have heard that there are Amish...

I'm sorry, not Amish, Mennonites, that have become completely left -wing.

Is that true?

Oh, that's absolutely true.

Absolutely true.

And Amish and Mennonites will tell you that.

Amish and Mennonite people are very agreeable, and they like to get along, and they will swallow

a lot of...

Well, we have to go to our first break right now.

If you have a question for Dor and Ray on our theme, anything involving the

Amish, the Mennonites, Anabaptists, and specifically in regard

why they are in practice, perhaps not in

spelled -out definition in a confessional way, but in practice are

really opposed to sola scriptura, which basically is a

Reformation cry in Latin watchword that meant

that the scriptures alone are the infallible inerrant authority over the church,

not that they contain all information, and not even that they contain all

important information, but they contain, the scriptures contain, all that we need to know for godly

living and for salvation.

So this is, I think, a very fascinating concept that we are going to be addressing today.

And if you have a question of your own, submit it to ChrisArnsett at gmail .com, C -H

-R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence, and we're going to be right back after these messages, so do

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And it was great to see you, Pastor Doran, hitting it off so well with Dan Buttafuoco when he

was my guest speaker at the most recent Iron Sharpens Iron Radio pastors' luncheon at Church of the Living Christ in

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Oh yeah, I loved Dan.

He was great.

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One of the pastors who attended, Jeremy Brandenburg, of the

Redeemer Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, said that he really needed a

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He was thrilled with Dan's presentation as well.

Sure.

And by the way,.

I absolutely love the name of your church, Church of the Living Christ.

Perhaps my favorite name of any church I've ever heard of.

Oh, well, that's a good thing to hear.

Usually when people hear it, they think that we must be a charismatic fellowship.

I have no idea why they would make that assumption.

They just do.

That's interesting.

Right.

Well, we are discussing introducing Sola Scriptura to a region dominated by Mennonite presuppositions.

And something that you have said already triggered a memory that I had when you

were talking about how even if you were to ask an Amish person or a Mennonite

if everything they believe is based on the Bible and they may say yes in the affirmative, they

really have to go to a higher earthly authority to have the

Scriptures explained and defined by them.

And it reminded me of an individual whose name I forget,

but he is the host of a Roman Catholic program

called Coming Home, I believe.

Or perhaps that's the name of the network, the Coming Home Network.

And maybe the program is the Journey Home.

But anyway, he interviews former Protestants who have become Roman Catholic.

In many sense, they are returning from Protestantism.

They are returning from the religion of their childhood, which was Roman

Catholicism before they were Protestants.

In many cases, not all.

But the host said something very moronic.

He said, Sola Scriptura is the reason that we have cults

in the world.

And I laughed, and I think I also simultaneously got furious.

But none of the cults believe in Sola Scriptura, which is

why his statement was so foolish.

The cults have a hierarchical structure that more closely

resembles that of Rome because they have their own versions of an infallible

magisterium that have to define what the Scriptures teach.

You cannot have a Berean attitude and approach towards the Scriptures where

you're studying everything in the Scriptures to make sure that what your teacher is saying is true.

That is not a cult mindset.

Well, that's a true point.

However, Alistair McGrath in his book Luther's Dangerous Idea, you may have

read it, but he was talking about really the dangerous idea

that would

inculcate

the assertions of shepherds armed with the Bible.

What they said, but also, it was

also

allowed to

twist the falsehood.

It turned out that the true

meanings of Scripture

themselves, that

they would...

Yes, I mean, liberty always has a negative side.

Right.

The fact that we have freedom of speech and freedom of religion guaranteed to us in the

Constitution of the United States is a wonderful and glorious thing.

But that is why we have Black Lives Matter and that is why

we have LGBTQ activists and on and on we could

go spewing damning falsehoods.

Because when you have freedom, that means that you're going to have differences of opinion

combating with each other.

But my point about the Sola Scriptura comment was I believe

that religious liberty is the reason we have cults.

But Sola Scriptura is really at odds with the whole cultic blueprint.

Yeah, and there's no question of that.

Because, I mean, after all, you know, I believe that Black Lives Matter, Black

liberation theology, queer theory, any number of critical theory

movements are actually false religions with a false theme.

And the problem there they're getting

is

a self -certifying,

non -analytical analyzation

that there are oppressors and there are the oppressed.

And our job is to just identify,

develop innocence and pure assertiveness

except for Marxists.

Yes, they cannot get around the imaginary box

that they claim they are in that is a self

-identified ideology of non -religious belief.

All beliefs are religious.

They're either true or false.

And when you have leftists saying that they don't want religion in

the public schools, and I, for one, don't believe that specific religions

should be in the public schools either because the odds are your evangelical children, if

you have them in a government school, I should say, which

I am strongly opposed to, but if you have them there, the odds of them having

evangelical teachers that are teaching them the scriptures correctly are very slim and you're going to

have all kinds of weird religious things being taught.

But when the leftist says that, they're hypocritical because when you say

in a classroom that it is completely fine and even celebratory

to be a homosexual, you are saying the Bible is wrong.

You're making a religious statement.

You're making a theological and doctrinal statement.

Whether you call it that or not is of no importance.

It's just the reality of the situation that all of the leftist propaganda

are confessions and creeds of leftism and catechisms of the

Antichrist.

Oh, yeah.

There's no doubt about it.

You can look at and

sort of place the American Constitution and founding

documents on a similar level with scripture.

I've even heard as an

inspired document.

Yes.

In fact, the Mormons have come close to that.

They don't come close to it.

I think they are guilty of it in spades.

Yes.

In fact, I want to pick up.

Where you left off there.

Because we have to go.

To our midway break right now, believe it or not.

It's here already.

If anybody has a question for Dor and Ray, please send it to chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

This is the longer than normal break in the show.

Please be patient with us because Grace Life Radio 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida requires of us

a longer break in the middle of the show because the FCC requires of them to localize all of their

programming, including Iron Sharp and Zion Radio, geographically to Lake City, Florida.

And they do so.

With their own public service announcements and other local announcements.

And while they do that, we simultaneously air our globally heard commercials.

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Write down as much.

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Don't go away.

We'll be right back after these messages.

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Hello, my name is Anthony Uvino, and I'm one of the pastors at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Quorum, New York, and

also the host of the reformrookie .com website.

I want you to know that if you enjoy listening to the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio show like I do, you can now find it on the

Apple's iTunes app by typing Iron Sharpens Iron Radio in the search bar.

You no longer have to worry about missing a show or a special guest because you're in your car.

Or still at work.

Just subscribe on the iTunes app and listen to the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio show at any time, day or night.

Please be sure to also.

Give it a good review.

And pass it along to anyone who would benefit from the teaching and the many solidly reformed guests that Chris Arnzen

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Truth is so hard to come by these days, so don't waste your time with fluff or fake news.

Subscribe to the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio podcast right now.

And while you're at it, you can also sign up for the reformrookie .com podcast and visit our website and the YouTube

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We are dedicated to teaching Christian theology from a Reformed Baptist perspective to beginners in the faith as

well as seasoned believers.

From Keech's Catechism and the Doctrines of Grace to the Olivet Discourse and the Book of Leviticus, the Reform

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And finally, if you're looking to worship in a Reformed church that holds to the 1689 London Baptist Confession

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Again, I'm Pastor Anthony Avino, and thanks for listening.

If you love Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, one of the best ways you can help keep the show on the air is

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One such faithful advertiser who really believes in what Chris Arnzen is doing is

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When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005 the publishers of the New American

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This

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Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support Iron

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Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers which strives to

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If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe ten minutes,

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This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our Sovereign

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Hi, I'm Buzz Taylor.

Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio has had a long -time partnership with our friends at

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Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said, Give yourself unto reading.

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Always mentioning that you heard about them from Chris Aronson on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio.

Before I return to Doran Ray, Senior Pastor at Church of the Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania,

as we continue the discussion of our theme Introducing Sola Scriptura to a Region Dominated

by Mennonite Presuppositions,.

We just have a couple.

More announcements to make.

Folks, if you love this show and you don't want it to disappear, I urge you, please,

go to ironsharpensironradio .com Click support, then click Click to

donate now.

You can donate instantly with a debit or credit card in that fashion.

If you prefer mailing in a check the old -fashioned way via snail mail by sending in a

physical check from your local post office, well, there will also be a physical

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I try to remind you of this every day, that I don't want anybody giving your own church

where you are a member less money than you're accustomed to giving them in order to give us a financial

gift.

Please don't do that.

I have labored to make Iron Sharpens Iron Radio a gift

to the local church,.

That is,.

The biblically faithful local church and the biblically faithful local pastor.

I always wanted this program since its inception to be a platform, a helping

hand, an arm, an extension of the local

pastor and the local church that is true to God's Word.

I never want to do anything that harms the local church and the local pastor, including financially.

So therefore, don't give your own church less money than you're accustomed to giving them in order to give us something.

Also,.

Don't put your family in real financial jeopardy if you're really struggling

to survive right now.

I don't want you to fall even further behind in paying bills and taking food off of your family's dinner table

because you've given us a gift.

Please don't do that either.

Those two things are commands of God in Scripture, providing for church and family.

Providing for my radio show is obviously not a command of God.

But,.

If you do love the show and you are blessed financially above and beyond your ability to obey those two commands,

then I'm urging you, please go to www .ironsharpensironradio .com, click support, then click, click to

donate now.

We are in urgent need of your financial support and we really need your help if you would like us to

remain on the air.

Also,.

Another way you can help us continue to exist is to advertise with us.

If you'd like to advertise your church, your parachurch organization, your business, your

professional practice, or a special event that you're having, as long as whatever it is you're promoting is compatible

with what I believe, we would love to have you launch an ad campaign with us because we surely could use the

advertising dollars.

You don't have to believe exactly as I do, but you need,.

At the very least,.

To be promoting something that is compatible with what I believe.

So send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com,.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com, and put advertising in the subject line.

Last but not least, if you are not a member of a Christ -honoring, theologically sound, doctrinally

solid, biblically faithful congregation, no matter where you live on the planet Earth, I may be able to

help you find a church that fits that description.

I have extensive lists of biblically faithful churches spanning the globe, and it may have one

waiting for you, sometimes within minutes of where you live, as I have done many times with

listeners in our audience.

So send me an email if you're in that predicament of being without a church home, or if you have loved ones without a church home.

Send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com, and put I need a church in the subject line.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com, and put I need a church in the subject line.

That's also the email address of where you are to send questions to

Pastor Doran Ray, Senior Pastor at Church of the Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania,.

Another God -honoring, Christ -loving, doctrinally sound, theologically solid,

biblically faithful church in Perry County, Pennsylvania.

And if you have any question for him, send it to chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Give us your first name,.

At least your city.

And state of residence, and your country of residence.

When you arrived on the scene.

In Loisville, Pennsylvania, answering the call as the undershepherd there,

the Senior Pastor at Church of the Living Christ, was there any culture shock involved

that made you realize you had some hurdles to overcome regarding the region's

Mennonite presuppositions that dominated the area?

Yeah, I would say to some degree.

Now,

however, what

you wind up with here is people from

more Arminian bent, and it's not only Arminianism, but it's really an approach.

Then what you wind up with is the struggle with the

election

that is in any way

a mission.

Oh, yeah, of course.

No, you can't speak.

About the Bible here.

Right, right, right.

Just to clarify something.

You said, though, you referred to the Amish as politically conservative.

They're not politically involved at all, are they?

Well, actually, but that's the thing.

There are Amish people who vote for

Republican action.

Really?

I didn't even know that they voted.

Now, they keep that under wrap in their churches.

Ah, you know,.

It just dawned on me.

I remember at one of the Trump rallies.

Seeing people.

That at least dressed Amish in the background.

Sitting there,.

And I remember wondering, what are they doing there?

They're not supposed to be voting.

Yes, they are politically conservative, but I did want to correct something just super quick.

I didn't want to offend your French audience, your vast French audience.

I referred to the Alsace region as German before, but I'll

move on.

It's

the

conscience

of the Old Testament saints.

And so, well into their 60s is

the time Christ comes along.

The talmud

to God

pushes them on this, and we pick up in Matthew 15, verse 3, and I'll be reading from the NASB, my Bible

of choice.

You've got to record.

An ad for me then.

There you go.

He said, Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?

For God said, Honor your father and mother, and he who speaks evil of father and mother is to be put to death.

But you say, whoever says to his father or mother, whatever you have that would help you,

whatever

tradition, you hypocrites, rightly did Isaiah.

Disciples come to him and say, Jesus, you know, you just offended the point

that

elevated

the

rule

-based

brain

analysis.

Bible believing ostensibly would

come

off as reformed to

themselves, and they say in their website, We love the Bible,

but we are

loved

it.

Well, I think that.

That's a lesson.

Of warning to those,.

Including myself.

I am, unashamedly, a confessional Reformed Baptist, I believe, in the beauty

and great value and importance of confessions and creeds.

But, they are subordinate.

To the Bible, and we can never forget that.

But we do, don't we?

Yes. We do.

Yes, and there are some that do that more than others, and, in fact, some of the conflicts that I

have seen rising up dividing Reformed Baptists, I believe it's

because there are some who are unconsciously elevating the confession

to a higher level than they intend, but than they consciously.

Intend.

Now, that's a very valuable exercise,

very valuable exercise to say, all right, what are we putting on an equal par with Scripture?

Yes, I mean,.

A true confession like the 1689 London Baptist Confession

is lifting up the Scriptures.

In fact, the chapter one of the 1689 London Baptist Confession.

Of Faith says,.

In its very first words,.

The Holy Scriptures.

Are the only sufficient, certain, and infallible standard.

Of all saving knowledge, faith,.

And obedience.

So, those that can abuse.

And do abuse this are violating that very first statement that when

they exalt a confession to an equal or higher level.

Than the Scriptures, and I believe that everyone,.

Whether they identify themselves this way or not, is confessional and creedal.

Like, for instance, I can remember being at a Church of Christ Bible conference,

and the minister was saying, we in the Church of Christ do not believe in confessions and

creeds.

We only believe in the Bible.

And I raised my hand,.

And I said,.

Can I read the church bulletin that you had in your lobby that I picked up?

I just want to read a brief portion of it.

I said,.

You have in your church bulletin.

We in the Church of Christ believe that a minister must be a man.

He does not wear clerical robes, but a business suit, and we

believe in baptism by immersion only

of a believer for the remission of sins, and we participate in the Lord's table

every week.

I said, do you know that this is.

A confession of faith?

It's something that you believe.

You have gleaned from the Bible as a list of primary

identifying marks of your people.

I said,.

It's a confession.

In fact,.

To say there is no creed but the Bible is a creedal statement.

It is a creedal statement, absolutely.

Yeah, it is the doctrines and the creeds, right?

It is simply

came across

in

English.

Definitely, definitely.

Now, following up with that,

every plant which my heavenly Father did not plant shall be a fruit.

Eat the meat and see

it has something to contribute.

There's something valuable to

get

along with.

And what you wind up doing there is watering plants.

Yeah, and if you could.

Walk us through,.

I know that.

Every conversation with a unique individual has

unique elements to it, but if you could walk us through what

might be a typical conversation with somebody who has perhaps even

unconsciously adopted Mennonite presuppositions,

when you are trying to communicate to them truths that you believe that contradict with their

theology, life, and practice.

Right. I give you...

Go ahead.

No, I was just going to say that would reveal that they are unconsciously violating the concept of sola

scriptura because I'm sure that you're not going to find, unless I'm totally wrong here, a

person of that background saying, oh, we don't believe in the Bible alone.

Many people that violate.

Sola scriptura,.

In fact, many people that violate all of the solas of the Reformation often claim they are not doing so.

Roman Catholics.

Believe... they believe...

They say...

They claim they believe in sola gratia.

They definitely,.

If they are knowledgeable about their own history, would openly.

Oppose sola fide, but they claim.

They believe sola gratia and soli deo gloria at the very least.

And, of course, they would also.

Openly oppose.

Sola scriptura,.

But even their claim of adhering to sola gratia and soli deo gloria are not

consistent and logically true.

But if you could just tell us about.

An example of a conversation.

Sure.

Can I give you a silly and extreme...

Of course.

...real life story that acts as a symbol?

In fact, people very often describe me as silly and extreme, so you can...

Okay.

So, what we sort of aim to do here at Church of Living Christ is to

create...

...a friend of ours named...

...driving Amish...

...Christian lady.

And so, one day she's talking to an Amish man and not surprisingly his name was Samuel,

and she said, Samuel, I was wondering why do you fellows have beards?

And Samuel responded, he said, because the Bible instructs us that we should have beards.

And she said, Samuel, I have...

I have read the Bible cover to cover many times, and I...

I don't remember reading that anywhere in the Scriptures.

And so, the Amish fellow said, well, let me check with my bishop.

And so, he went away and he talked to his bishop and a couple of weeks came by and

he didn't say anything to her.

And so, finally, she said, Samuel, I was wondering, did you ever ask your bishop about the beards?

And yes, I did.

He told me that it's not in the Bible, but it's our tradition.

And she said, oh, it's your tradition.

He said, yeah.

And then what was interesting was he still looked a bit distraught.

And he paused for a couple of seconds and he said, and the question that I...

Why do I have this beard?

And that really illustrated the point is that once you come up against the limitations,

your doctrine isn't really from the Scripture, you yourselves often...

Then why is it I believe what I believe?

And that's not an uncommon experience when you talk to Amish or Mennonites is

that they often...

That in context...

And very often what underlies a belief, and a very core belief, a very

important belief, is not what the Scripture...

Their church.

And if you're told in your church, we believe the Bible, then you find that a great many of those

things aren't in the Bible.

You

start

with

what

man

loves

and very

often at the root of it.

Yes.

And in fact, I can clearly remember when I was arranging one of my

debates on Roman Catholicism with Dr. James R. White, a gentleman

that I knew came to my church building where my own office was

while working for WMCA Radio at the time, and he said to me when he was

coming.

To pick up posters.

To help promote the debate,.

He said,.

Oh boy, I love Dr. James White.

He is magnificent.

There's only one thing I hate about him and it's his Calvinism.

And I said,.

That's interesting.

And I said, I was wondering if you could just explain.

What this means.

So I picked up a Bible, I opened up Romans 9, I read Romans 9, and he said,.

You know who believes.

That stuff?

The biggest cult in the world, the Islamic religion.

And I said, Well, you know, but you saw me just pick up a Bible and read

from Romans 9.

And he said, Yeah, but it's what you read into it.

I said,.

I didn't read anything into it.

I just read it.

I didn't exegete it.

I didn't explain it.

I just read it.

And that, in and of itself,.

Got you very hot under the collar.

You really got to examine if you are really defending the

scriptures in your animosity towards these teachings, or if you are defending an unbiblical

tradition that you have that's blinding you to the truth.

That's because,

and that, once again, I'd like to,

and it's one of the things,

really a wonderful living in opinion

on those matters, is unity,

diversity, and order.

And that's where, when I was talking to an Amish woman at

one point, just deal with things using the Bible.

I said, yes, that's what we're

always

aiming

to

do.

I want to go to at least one of our listener questions.

Before I go to.

The final break.

Sure.

We have Ted in Moundville, Alabama.

And he says, Gut Novit.

That's Pennsylvania Dutch.

When I first heard the topic of today's program, I thought of an experience I had shortly after

becoming a Christian in 1987.

I had seen a church featured on a national Christian talk show, and I realized it was quite close

to my home in Pennsylvania.

I decided to visit that church and was appalled when the pastor, who was esteemed and revered in

this region of Pennsylvania and praised to high heaven on the Christian talk show, gave

a sermon that basically boiled down to, as Christians, we have to really try hard,

otherwise we won't make it.

Despite having been a Christian, just, hold on a second, I lost my place.

In his email.

Despite having been a Christian just a few weeks, I knew that this wasn't consistent with the gospel,

and I never visited that church again.

Mind you,.

This was 35 years ago,.

But my question is, how common was that type.

Of exegesis.

Among the Mennonites back then, and is it any more or less common today?

Yes, in fact, in my interviews with former Amish, I discovered that it is

anathema amongst the Amish to even be involved in public evangelism.

To stand on a street corner, for instance, and pass out tracts, or to have an outdoor

evangelism meeting, a revival meeting, whatever you want to call it.

That is anathema because they view that as prideful.

Yes.

And I was told that it differs from community to

community some of the specific rules, but there are communities where you can

very commonly be told you are going to hell for wearing the wrong kind of

suspenders.

That is not a joke.

That is real.

But the reason given.

Is not really.

Because you're wearing the wrong kind of suspenders.

It's because you're defying your bishop.

But before we go to the final break, which is going to be.

Much shorter than the others,.

I just want to remind our listeners that if you have interest in learning more about

some of the things we're discussing,.

You could go to the.

Iron Trip and Zion Radio archive, irontripandzionradio .com, and type in

the search engine.

Chuck Volo,.

That's V as in victory, U -O -L -O.

He has led a number of Amish men to Christ, and I have interviewed Chuck

and a number of the Amish men, at least two, perhaps three of the Amish men,

who have come to Christ out of the Amish on the program, and you can find those interviews

if you go to past shows podcast and type in V as in victory, U -O -L -O, in the

search engine.

Pastor Chuck was once the pastor of New Life Community Church in Kingsville, Maryland.

Now he is pastoring Gospel of Grace Community Church in

Kinser, Pennsylvania.

And also,.

You could find a free documentary.

On the internet.

Called Trouble in Amish Paradise, Trouble in Amish Paradise, and two of

the men involved in that documentary who came to Christ and were excommunicated,

they are also men that I have interviewed on Iron Trip and Zion.

We have to go to our final break.

It's going to be much more brief.

If you have a question,.

Send it in immediately.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back after these messages.

Lindbrook Baptist Church on 225 Earl Avenue in Lindbrook, Long Island is teaching God's timeless truths in

the 21st century.

Our church is far more than a Sunday worship service.

It's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the Gospel is clear and relevant.

It's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement.

It's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people and healing.

We're a diverse family of all ages.

Enthusiastically serving our Lord Jesus Christ.

In fellowship, play, and together.

Hi, I'm Pastor Bob Waldeman and I invite you to come and join us here at Lindbrook Baptist Church and see all that a church can

be.

Call Lindbrook Baptist at 516 -599 -9402.

That's 516 -599 -9402 or visit LindbrookBaptist .org.

That's LindbrookBaptist .org.

Every day at thousands of community centers, high schools, middle schools, juvenile institutions,

coffee shops, and local hangouts, Long Island Youth for Christ staff and volunteers meet with young people

who need Jesus.

We are rural and urban and we are always about the message of Jesus.

Our mission is to have a noticeable spiritual impact on Long Island, New York by engaging young people in the lifelong

journey of following Christ.

Long Island Youth for Christ has been a stalwart bedrock ministry since 1959.

We have a world -class staff and a proven track record of bringing consistent love and encouragement to youths in

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Help honor our history by becoming a part of our future.

Volunteer, donate, pray, or all of the above.

For details, call Long Island Youth for Christ at 631 -385

-8333.

That's 631 -385 -8333 or visit

Liyfc .org.

That's L -I -Y -F -C dot org.

Iron Trump and Zion Radio first launched in 2005.

The publishers of the New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors.

It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the Iron Trump and Zion Radio audience have been

sticking with or switching to the NASB.

I'm author Gary DeMar, President of American Vision, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.

I'm Pastor Dan LeBennick of West Hills Baptist Church in Huntington Station, New York, and the NASB

is my Bible of choice.

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I'm Reverend Buzz Taylor, author of God's Lawson, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.

I'm Dr. William Webster, pastor of Grace Bible Church in Battleground, Washington, founder

of the ministry Christian Resources, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.

I'm Pastor Ryan Galan of Central Islip Community Church in Central Islip, New York, and the NASB

is my Bible of choice.

I'm Pastor Brandon Smith of Trinity Reformed Baptist Church in Jackson, Georgia, and the NASB

is my Bible of choice.

Here's a great way for your church to help keep Iron Trump and Zion Radio on the air.

Pastors, are your pew bibles tattered and falling apart?

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Welcome back and Pastor Doran, we have a question from Arnie in Perry County,

Pennsylvania.

And he says,.

Well, I know that there are individuals in false religions that are saved in

spite of the false teachings of that religion because they embrace the true gospel.

Do you categorize the Amish and the Mennonites as false religions?

Are those that are true to the actual teachings of these religions damned or

at the very least, should I say, lost at this moment?

Right.

I don't tend to categorize people in broad strokes like that.

That being said, it's hard to be

and are there.

And then there are others who simply their conscience cannot bear the continued

legal resigning

with

leave

for no

religion at all.

So I'm

picking

up a...

Excellent answer.

In fact, it reminds me of one of the debates that I organized between Dr. James R. White of

Alpha May Ministries and Mitch Pacwa, who is a Jesuit priest

and scholar, brilliant man, a wonderful man in regard to his personality.

But he asked James during one of their debates, James, do you view me as your brother in Christ?

I think he was trying to get some sympathy from the audience by making James look like the bad guy.

But I thought James answered in a wonderful and brilliant way.

He merely said to Mitch Pacwa, do you believe that the

Council of Trent accurately defines justification?

And he said, yes, I do.

And James answered, there is no hope in that gospel.

So I thought that was the best way to answer that specific question.

That's exactly right.

We have Grady.

In Asheboro, North Carolina.

Greetings, brothers.

You said the Mennonites could not have a Bible for personal reading.

Do they use the Bible in corporate worship?

Actually, that's only half right, Grady, as far as the way my guest stated it,

and I stated it as well.

They can't have an English Bible as an adult.

For some reason,.

They allow children.

To have English Bibles.

But the adults.

Cannot have an English Bible.

They have to have a German Bible.

And since most Amish people do not have German, I'm sorry, since most Amish people

don't speak and read German, they don't really have a Bible for personal reading.

But as far as the question.

On corporate worship, Doran, if you could explain.

Yes, so as Chris alluded to earlier, their German Bible is

translated into a version of German that they no longer speak.

They speak a great deal of English.

The Bible is, even though they're not

allowed in their homes, the vast majority

do.

They, in fact, do have English Bibles.

And they read those Bibles, and that is what's, it is simple.

Hallelujah.

They read it, and they are absolutely transformed by the Word, which brings something

that the Westminster Confession does not have.

The Holy Spirit, and that's really the case.

And we can trust the Bible.

And years ago, I was in a debate with a charismatic,

he was neo -orthodox in his belief system, probably very similar to what Martin Luther King believed.

And the fellow said to me, yeah, we don't believe the Scripture in and of

itself.

It needs something.

I said, well, based on that logic, the Holy Spirit could use a cookbook as much as He could use the

Scripture.

And he looked at me without blinking and said, yes, that's true.

Well, we're out of time, and I want to make sure that I repeat the website of Church of the Living Christ

in Boysville, Pennsylvania.

It's churchofthelivingchrist .cc, churchofthelivingchrist .cc.

And please do not forget about the upcoming Bible conference

being held May 20th through the 22nd, Reason for Belief Apologetics Conference.

And you can go to.

Churchofthelivingchrist .cc for more details.

Thank you so much, Pastor Doran.

You were an excellent guest as I believed you would be, and I'm looking forward to your

frequent return to our program.

I want to thank everybody.

Who listened, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far,

far greater Savior than you are a sinner.