Have You Not Read - S1E19

Welcome to Have You Not Read, a podcast seeking to answer questions from the text of scripture for the honor of Christ and the edification of the saints.

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I'm Dylan Hamilton, and with me are Michael Durham and Andrew Hudson. We had another question come in from our listeners about prophets and apostles.

Their question reads, can there be prophets and apostles for today's church? Michael, would you like to start us off?

So we do hear about apostles and prophets in the book of Acts. And the apostles we first hear in the gospels where Jesus is dealing with his 12 disciples that he especially called out to follow him.

And at some point he starts calling them apostles, and we begin to hear that name being used in concert with, sometimes in replacement of the word disciples.

Of course, the word disciples is a great term. Learners, those who grow in the faith, walking, following the lamb wherever he goes as learners would follow their rabbi and learning everything about him.

And so that's a great image for us to see that. Now, the word apostle has something a little bit more to it in that these were the ones that Jesus sent out with his authority in the initial stages of the church.

And so the word apostles deals with those who are delegated, they're like ambassadors with full authority of the one who sent them.

Originally, these sent out ones with the authoritative message of Christ, a plenipotentiary ambassador of Christ, full authoritative weight.

So they got sent out from Christ with specific instructions regarding the great commission, and they preached the word and edified the saints and planted churches and spread throughout the known world with the authority of Christ.

Their labors were often attended by verifying signs of their authority so that folks would know they came in the name of Christ and in the power and authority of Christ.

This included the apostle Paul, who as he humorously quipped one born at a time, but obviously he still trusted in the sovereignty of God, but that he also was an apostle whom

Christ encountered and Christ taught and sent out. And so in the book of Acts, you have stories of Peter and Paul that sound very similar and that they both were preaching the word and they both were doing signs and wonders and so on.

So usually when we deal with the word apostle, we're dealing with the 12 that Christ sent out.

And of course, Judas Iscariot betrayed him and died a horrible death for it.

And James, the brother of John died very early. There was an apostle that was raised up to replace

Judas Iscariot and his name was Matthias. But when James dies, no one was brought up to replace him.

And so that's interesting that when we see in the book of Acts that there was needful 12, any guesses as to why the 12?

Why 12 apostles? You could talk about Jethro and his talking about elders and men to be able to provide authority and guidance.

Yes, there's an organizational pattern there. But also you have the pattern of the tribes also listed.

Yes, and so Jesus is conscientiously selecting 12 in terms of when he's at the process of preaching the kingdom of God and declaring a new covenant.

And so he selects 12 apostles. And of course, he's not interested in creating tribes that will be rivaling one another, but he is saying, in me, you are the people of God.

And so he sends forth these apostles. Now, when we read through the rest of the book of Acts, we keep on hearing about a kind of a general term, apostles.

And sometimes we hear about prophets. And the reason why we're talking about this is because I hear

Jesus has arisen from the dead. He's ascended to the right hand of the father. And we are seeing in the book of Acts, the

Acts not of just, you know, it's not about Paul. It's not about Peter. And it really isn't even about the apostles.

These are the Acts of the risen Lord Jesus and his sovereign reign from the right hand of God as he spreads his kingdom and builds his church.

And how does he do that? Well, Ephesians talks about that Christ through the Holy Spirit has gifted to the church the different folks that were needful for the establishment of the church and the strengthening of the church and the spread of the church.

This included apostles and prophets and evangelists and elders, preachers, teachers, so on and so forth.

So whatever the church needed, Christ is providing as our head to make sure that this all goes forth.

Now, of course, the question is really, you know, can we have apostles today? If we have apostles today, in the sense that they are the ones sent out by Jesus, then we would have to say, no, we don't have apostles today that are like the authoritative ambassadors of Christ himself with plenipotentiary powers, you know, kind of like 12 popes running around on earth with the full authority of Christ.

Do we have that today? No, we don't need that, right? Why don't we have that today?

Again, it goes back to where in Judas Iscariot was the traitor and was replaced by Matthias, but James was martyred early and they didn't replace him.

Why is that? Well, it shows that there's a unique group. It was a unique group. So we're given that.

Now, what about prophets? Well, what are prophets? Those who forth tell and foretell, as we have in the

Old Testament, prophets that would not only just state the truth, you know, hey, God said don't worship idols. Well, that was part of the job of the prophet, right?

And the other part of the job of the prophet was to foretell and say, God has declared that a king from the east is going to come and destroy your lands because of your idolatry.

Well, that's foretelling. That was intermixed with the forth telling of the prophets in the

Old Covenant. And in the New Covenant, we read about prophets as well. And there was both of those things going on as well in the

New Testament when we're reading through the book of Acts. And Jesus even talked about sending forth what he called prophets and scribes to the people of the

Jews to proclaim his kingdom, to proclaim the gospel and prophesied that they would treat them the way that their forefathers had treated the prophets of old and killing them and persecuting them, mistreating them and so on.

So the question about today is really trying to get at authority and the standard of authority. Do we have apostles today who stand in the place of Christ?

I think the answer is no from the book of Acts. Do we have prophets today that are preaching

God's word and saying that thus saith the Lord in the word of God, God says don't worship idols.

In this sense, I would say yes, that there's prophesying going on in that sense. Is there prophesying going on where somebody says, a year from now, this man or this woman is going to have this particular blessing or this particular trial and it comes to pass.

I would say that given the current appetite for the charismata, the current appetite for spiritual experiences and mysticism,

I would say that probably 99 % of all of that is false. It's just culture.

It's kind of cultural, religion, superstition, but is God free to work through someone to say such and such is going to happen?

Yeah, God is free to do that. Does that mean that that is authoritative scripture that everybody must bow down to and memorize and add to the back of their

Bibles? No, why not? Because in the New Testament itself, we read that Paul and Peter and John and the apostles, they did things and said things and wrote things down that we don't have today.

They wrote, Paul wrote letters that we don't have and they preached sermons that we don't have and this isn't scripture.

Not everything that an apostle did was the holy scripture authority standard for us and not everything a prophet said in the

New Testament era was authoritative and to be lived according to by the church and so on.

So what I'm trying to affirm is that God is free to do as he pleases through the gifts and the power of the

Holy Spirit in the name of Christ amongst his people, but it's not something that replaces or displaces or contradicts or devalues scripture.

Would you also phrase it like there are no capital A apostles, no capital

P prophets? Yeah, I would say that. Again, when we watch the patterns in charismatic circles and even other categories that defy definition, the desire to claim titles is, well, it's offensive actually.

When you read what Jesus says about that, how we're not supposed to be seeking out titles of power and glory for ourselves, but we're just brothers and that we're to be as babes desiring the pure milk of the word of the scripture.

So yeah, do we see capital A apostles? Do we have those today? No. Do we have capital

P prophets? No. Is God free to work as he chooses? Yes.

But again, I'm saying that with a note of caution because there is a lot of appetite to try to live from supernatural experience to supernatural experience every day if you can get it, three times a day if you can get it rather than recognizing, well, we read in the scriptures, we read about miracles in the scripture, right?

We read about powerful events, meaningful things. And these things are often separated by decades, even sometimes by centuries, that even though we read about a lot of interesting things, for instance, in the book of Acts, the book of Acts covers well over 30 years of history and it's all compressed together for us, but they're not living lives in which there's a word, there's a prophecy, there's a miracle, there's a exorcism every week on schedule,

Sunday morning, manufactured. There's a completely different element to that.

If you would help me with a verse, in Revelation, the book, chapter 19, there's made mention of the spirit of prophecy in verse 10, it says, for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

What does that mean? I've heard people talk about how the testimony of Christ is now what is described as the spirit of prophecy or being a prophet, having the testimony of Christ.

So in this context in Revelation 19, we have John in the midst of another vision in the book of Revelation, and John falls down before one who is not

God, okay? I fell at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, see that you do not do that for I am your fellow servant and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus.

Worship God, for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. So when we look at this passage, what is being said, first of all, is worship

God and fear God. What is being said further is that those who are the brethren are those who have the testimony of Jesus, the gospel of Jesus, the proclamation, the message of who he is and what he came to do, his person and work, okay?

And then it says that the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. So we have to, first of all, identify is this the

Holy Spirit? Is this a gift, a spiritual gift, or is this the

Holy Spirit himself? So what is entailed here? I think, so first of all,

I think sometimes people want to try to take a verse like this and quantify it and get a classification and then begin to apply it, right?

But when we think of testimony, what does testimony mean? That which is not simply that which is believed, not simply that which was held, but that which is also declared.

That which is also declared. So in that we have an agreement with the idea of prophecy, that which is declared, okay?

And that, what did Jesus say about the ministry of the Holy Spirit? That he would come and minister to us and be our comforter and he would bring to mind all the things that Jesus had declared to us and that Jesus even said to his apostles, you know, when you are brought before trials, tribunals, synagogues, and so on, you know, don't fear man.

You know, how am I gonna get myself out of this? What am I, I'm gonna study up on how to manipulate men to get out of this situation, but the

Holy Spirit will give you what to say. And what are they gonna say? Well, Peter and John, when they were in that same situation, what did they do?

They testified of Christ. So if we're saying anything in this text, and I would say it's good to move from what is most clear to possibly what is less clear, but what is most clear here is that those who hold to the testimony of Jesus and declare that are doing so by the power of the

Holy Spirit, that this is the kind of declarations that need to be made, that this is the kind of prophecy that should be going on.

People invest a lot of mystical experience in the word prophecy that may not be sustained by the biblical text itself.

The word itself doesn't necessitate some type of ecstatic experience. Yes, exactly.

I think that's a good way to put it. So what do we think this need for ecstatic experiences and regular ones, you know, you talked about needs to be at this time of the day and this time of the day, you know, three times a day.

Where do you think that needs coming from within the church? What does it stem from?

Well, I - Go ahead. I was gonna say, I mean, what you read in Mark at the ending of Mark, if these things are not happening in some circles, you don't have the full gospel.

Mark 16? Yes. Yeah, so like, so when Jesus, you know, promises that by his power, his people are going to overcome all the obstacles to the preaching of the gospel, whatever those may be, is there a need to cast out demons?

Is there a need for healing? Is there a need for protection from serpents and poisons?

You know, so on and so forth. Or is there a need to speak in languages that you've never learned before so that you can communicate the gospel clearly?

Whatever those needs are, Jesus promises, you know, with me, you're gonna overcome. So, but then if you take that list as not descriptive of how

Jesus works through his people, but if you take it as prescriptive of who

Jesus' people are, then you're reading the text entirely wrong. And I think, what is the need,

Dylan? I think that, well, I think we get tired of manna. So everyday faithfulness and patience and resting on promises rather than resting on experiences.

Yeah, we want cucumbers and leeks and garlic and we want quail and we want something, anything other than the steady on wondrous blessing of God.

So I think that's where it comes from, is dissatisfaction and gratitude. When we should be satisfied by the bread of life.

Yeah, and you know, listen, we do have stories, you know, modern stories of, you know, missionaries or folks at home coming up against great difficulties and problems.

And it's like, Lord, we can't fix this. We have no way forward. We need your help.

And calling out to the Lord for help and then God doing what he does and answering sometimes in very timely, very quick fashion and in coming up big and answering prayers.

And we should rejoice in those things. But we should also not think that that is the normative

Christian life. And to think that if that's not happening all the time, then there's some kind of problem.

And now, so I think there's a balance that needs to be there. And honestly, where do we find out how good

God is and how he works through the everyday and sustains us through protracted trials?

And where do we learn and how do we discover that God comes up big in, you know, wondrous moments?

We learn that in the scriptures. We see that in the word of God. We're given those expectations and our approach is shaped by the word of God.

So that we're not denying God's miraculous powers on the one hand. And on the other hand, we're not, you know, wonder hunting.

I think my question for the need, I was kind of looking more towards what is their outside influence from maybe some other, like maybe new age beliefs and new age mysticism that's coming in that may be flavoring some of this stuff.

And it's, I mean, you can point out specific groups like Hillsong or some of those areas that are actually teaching new age in their seminaries in a lot of different ways.

Is there a syncretism that actually is causing a little bit of this need or phenomenon of a lot of people really having to experience this dopamine hit every so often?

Well, what I would say is we are cautioned in the scriptures to not go beyond the scriptures. What happens whenever your theological belief system is not formed by what the scriptures say?

Where are you gonna draw your material from? Yeah, anywhere else that fits your prerogative.

So there's other places that claim to have these ecstatic experiences. Other religions have ecstatic experiences.

Right, and if you wanna look at the origins of the syncretism of experientialism in Christianity, one place to go look is the life and times of Charles Finney in the fallout of the second great awakening as the new lights and the old lights were splitting ways.

And a good book on this is by Ian Murray in Revival and Revivalism. But Finney syncretized the materialism of his day, right, mid -1800s, the materialism of his day with Christianity so that revivals were nothing more than a process that once you put these ingredients in, combine all these elements and forge them in a proper way, that you always came out with revival.

And this was a method, a kind of materialistic method. If you did these things, used these means and these ways, then you got these results.

And the syncretism continues today with a more, less about materialism and more as materialism morphs into pantheism as it always does because you cannot repress the religious notes of those made in God's image.

So the materialism always morphs into pantheism. That's where you're getting the neo -pagan synthesis in Hillsong and so on and so forth as they still are trying to generate experiences by using a method and means and so on.

Which goes back to your comment about the freedom of God and all these things because when you just have a method that you're practicing over and over and over to get the same result that you want, you're not relying on God to produce what he is free to produce.

Yeah. And you're not just doing your job in preaching the word faithfully week in and week out.

Yeah, I mean, there's not much difference between going and getting a spiritual experience at Hillsong versus going and getting it at Coachella.

We're gonna plant it, we're gonna water it, and then we're gonna make it increase, right? Yeah. Well, I think that about wraps that subject up for us today.

We're gonna head on to what are we thankful for, Michael? I'm thankful for the people in my life here at church and then there's folks like my brother or whoever who love me enough to talk with me and tell me the things that I need to hear that I have not thought clearly on to challenge me and also to, who also address me and deal with me as a brother and not as some kind of special priest.

Where the, you know, but to recognize that, hey, I'm just a brother in Christ.

If I've been gifted in these ways, it's to serve in these ways, but it's not that I have a standing that's different than anybody else in Christ.

So I'm thankful for the folks in my life who treat me that way. Amen. I'm thankful to God for being part of a body, the body of Christ, and knowing that each of us has those gifts that have been given, those skills that we can exercise for Christ's sake to minister to his people and to the lost in a local body where it's not gonna necessarily be easy to do that with each other, that there will be times that you disagree and that there are times that when you do agree, it feels like you're being fused together more and more.

And it helps for those times whenever you do have to bear with others, knowing that you're probably doing that same thing to other people at times.

So I thank God for Christian fellowship. Amen to that. Well, I'm very thankful that the grass is growing again.

We get green things, and every blade is to speak of his glory, and I get to cut a lot of them.

So get back into business and try and go out there and serve some people that way.

And that wraps it up for today. We are very thankful for our listeners and hope you will join us again as we meet to answer common questions and objections with Happy Knot Red.