Tim Bushong talks Christian and Worship Music

Christian Rock, Pastoral Ministry, and the Move from Touring to the Pulpit

Welcome to the Conversations That Matter podcast, ladies and gentlemen. You actually heard the guest that we're going to have on today. You're actually hearing that guest right now as I speak because Tim Bushong did the guitar riff intro and outro for the Conversations That Matter podcast.

You've also heard, I think this is one of your greatest hits, Tim, the dividing line. What is it called? Radio Free Geneva? You do the intro. Those are your golden pipes singing the great reformer, Martin Luther song, A Mighty Fortress.

So welcome. Welcome to the podcast that you've been playing on for now almost a year. How does it feel to actually be on a podcast that you play guitar for?

This is the best. And I want to ask you, how does it feel to be talking virtually in a room that you've actually physically sat in? So there.

Wow. You have very meta. Yeah, I was. And actually, there's a recording studio right behind you that people can kind of see. And it's where all the magic happens. I know. So we're Christians. Not magic.

All the miracles happen. Well, God's providential. We're not. We're not Pentecostals. Right. Right. Right. His sovereignty carries out in that room. Sovereign plan. There we go. Anyway, just introduce people to you and what you're doing.

You're a pastor now. In fact, I'm going to be at your church. I was there last fall, but in Syracuse, Indiana, October 22nd is the Jesus and Politics Conference this year. Part three. Yeah. Part three.

Yeah. At Syracuse Baptist Church. And so you live close to there. I know I've been at your house and we broke bread together, but you weren't always a pastor. You were a Christian rocker and you were part of the band Love War.

Some people might remember that and know that band and the Channel Surfers. And then you've done some solo projects as well that I have, Christmas and hymns. So why don't you just introduce us a little bit to talk about that transition, your rocker days and then going from that to be a pastor.

Did you have to settle it down a little bit or were you able to keep that intensity in the bullpit?

I could probably point you to 10 people that wish I had settled it down a bit. No, actually, I began, played music at a very young age. All the usual. I was born in 60, so kind of coming up through the 70s and junior proms and freshman cotillions and all that kind of thing.

Always hard rock, rock and roll. And I've been raised in a church and I am just, I can't tell you how grateful I am for my church upbringing. But during those days, I just, I thought it was kind of irrelevant.

Watch your P's and Q's on Sunday morning and then the rest of the week really isn't spiritual and you know, go have some fun, go be adventurous. And that's kind of what I did. And so I was in music, got married in 83.

You met my wife and she's the best rock and roll wife that I could ever ask for. And in 87, I finally had just had it. I repented, truly gave my life to Christ, whether that was it, you know, that was it or just me being like Jonah saying, all right, I give up or with quite a combination of both.

So I got to put music down. I thought that was my thing. Let's get into the word. Let's learn what this faith is that I knew to be true. And then around 90, I started writing again and really started coming up with a bunch of material, you know, a few albums worth.

And we began the band Love Word, went through many different incarnations. And we got a record deal with the Elefante Brothers on Pachyderm and a lot of critical acclaim. People would say, well, thanks for writing stuff that doesn't insult my intelligence.

It's like I can play it for my pagan friends and they get it for the street cred. Of course, the philosophy there was I don't think it's quite where where Bodie Baucham goes with it. You know, the bait and switch.

It's more about being able to play skillfully and doing so in any context that exists. We would play nightclubs, bars, youth groups, whatever, and do so in a way that then at the end of the show, when the last song is done and you pepper pepper the performance with with exhortations and things of that nature.

And that way you give the gospel and you give it without any hesitation, no blushing, no apologies. Well, then that banter and a channel surfers. I'm in my late 30s. We've got three kids and I was at the same time teaching a college class at the church that we were members of.

And it just got to the point where, OK, my my kids need their dad at home. I basically live a truck driver's schedule. So I decided to get off the road and that's when I transferred to what you see behind you on the other side of the glass, engineering, producing and recording.

And it wasn't until 2005, 2006, where we planted a church, some families from that same church. And we did it in such a way with their their blessing. And we're still dear friends with the pastors there.

And that's when I was ordained. The church approached me. Would you consider being our first elder? Yes. And then so kind of went through an examination and I was already in charge of the church music.

So it's kind of interesting how, you know, people would assume Tim Bouchon, they think, you know, the Mighty Fortress, you're that guy. I would get recognized on planes for glove war. And now I get recognized at elevator.

Oh, my goodness. You're a mighty fortress guy.

People might be hearing a little, you know, soundbites in the background because I'm on YouTube as you're talking, looking for love war. And I found. So is it all on the Tim Bouchon YouTube channel?

Is that where, you know, it's. It's not when when I got my distro kid account, they just put the new. Actually, it's all on Spotify.

Oh, you haven't taken your music off Spotify yet.

You. Yeah, well, I don't think I'm making a big enough splash, you know.

Now you get CNN at your house. If you if you did say we're going to take our love wars music off because Joe Rogan or something like that, you may get a revival. So. All right. So Spotify is where we stand with your brother.

Yeah. You and Neil Young. Yeah. So so that's I mean, that's interesting. So, I mean, not I don't know a lot of Christian rockers who kind of made that transition to being a pastor. And there seems to be I'm not huge in the Christian rock scene, but the ones that I know, even even like the solid ones, like I'm thinking of, oh, what's the really popular striper striper?

Right. Yeah. I mean, I know a guy who who worked with them pretty closely. And, you know, a lot of these bands are not trying to pick on anyone in particular, but stripers are the one that's come just popping out my mind because I have a friend who worked with them.

There's there's the onstage kind of persona. There's the music. There's there's the throwing out the Bibles and all this. But then there is a connection to the corporate world is the the record labels.

And it's inescapable. Right. And that is a huge pitfall. Temptation, just the worldliness, right? Worldliness. So what you know, what's it like out there? You've rubbed shoulders with with with a lot of the bands that at least in the 90s were popular is I mean, is it like a strain on one's soul to get involved in even Christian rock music or contemporary Christian music?

The Temptations of Christian Rock and the Music Industry

John, that's a great question. And. Let me say it this way, if you see something in Christian music that's kind of disturbing or, you know, seems off kilter, well, you could probably find the same corollary behind the pulpit almost anywhere.

The problem is when when you're going to be committed to a band, it's not just you anymore. It's these three or four other guys and you've got a tour. There's there's no question about it. You have to hit the road.

And if you're married and you've got kids, it's going to be a lot harder. I know I'm thinking of two particular guys that I had great respect for back in the 90s as music musicians who put out excellent material and who are both now in conservative pastoral ministry.

Frank Hart from Atomic Opera and now he's a Missouri Synod Lutheran. And Chris Niswonger from the band Precious Death. He's a Presbyterian pastor down the south of Memphis. I'd be hard pressed. One of the problems is, too, that there's no middle class in music.

You've either got the really high echelon where they're really making bank and able to do it. And then there's nothing in the middle. And then all of the rest of us dweebs just barely scraping by, you know.

And so the temptation is always going to be towards that kind of the allure of making some more money. You know, you can just imagine you're struggling, you're on the road, something comes up and, you know, they call it deconstruction now, but I've seen guys doing this for years and years.

You know, guys who I sat next to, you know, sharing the gospel with on the same stage. And now they're deconstructing and or, you know, going through whatever it is. There's nothing new under the sun.

This is just the same old, you know, it was emergent back in the... Let me turn my phone off. Yeah, go for it. Yeah, you know, the emergent church that went through the same kind of thing. And it's weird when you're at the same time, you're talking about artsy people, you know, just be creative.

As long as you're saying something, that's the important part. Then you got the rest of us out here going, well, no, the content's important. You want to think through this, be intentional. And yeah, I've seen some tragic situations where families are just atomized, divorced.

And at the same time, again, in the middle of that, you see guys that have gone on to, whether it's pastoral ministry or, you know, they didn't fall away. So, you know, I don't know if it's endemic. I think being on the road is really hard because you're not connected to the church.

That's a big problem. Right. Yeah, there's no accountability there. You can kind of get away with things as you're staying in hotels or other places.

By the way, let me say something about Striper because sometimes they get a, you know, you're like, well, you know, 80s metal. I met and got to know Michael Sweet a little when we were mixing the first Love War record.

He was recording his first solo record. This is in the same studio in LA. And he told me without any hesitation that they had really gotten off the beam on, I think it was a particular record in 91 or whatever.

I can't remember. It's just, yeah. I mean, we thought, hey, let's go for the brass ring on this. And it almost blew up their band and Bunch of Marriages. Now, thank God that didn't happen. You know, I thought that was interesting.

He's like willing to say, no, that was that was a huge mistake. We almost ruined our lives trying to pursue something.

That was just ungodly. Yeah. So I mean, what advice would you have for people to a young person today who wants to get involved with Christian contemporary music?

You know, I'll be honest. I've been out of that scene for, man, now it's 22 years. I got off the road in late ninety nine. Really didn't have much interaction. I don't even know what's going on.

But you didn't watch the Super Bowl either. So yeah, yeah. I guess I didn't. I didn't own that.

Stuff in the 90s, so I'm probably not going to be interested in it now. No. So back to the back to that issue. Advice would be. First of all, music is like anything else, it's it's got these basic structures and tools and everything and practice get really good.

But the but the main thing is you're going to you're going to really try it. You're going to be subject to the producers and to the executives of the record companies. And if you really want to be an artist, forget all that.

We got the Internet now. Be an independent artist. Put your own stuff out there and stay connected to your local church. Make sure that you're your pastors, you're the members of the church, the people that grew up watching you.

It's not those little kids all all down. Now you're a teenager and you want to be a rock star. Miss Hathaway Jethro wants to be a rock star and stay connected to those people. You know, they know you.

They love you. They may not understand your musical taste. I get it. I like stuff that most of the people in my church are like, that's Pastor Tim. You know, and that's OK. We don't bring it in the church.

That's a whole that's another topic. But, yes, stay connected to the people that know you and love you and know the Bible and aren't aren't afraid to say, yeah, I don't think that'd be wise. Why don't we try this channel, you know, or this direction?

Christian Music, Church Connection, and the Limits of the Industry

Now, I've had some questions lately from people who have a suspicion about Christian music, I guess, and I I'm just going to be very open with everyone who's listening. I don't really listen to the contemporary Christian music station in my area.

I don't really even know what's out there. I never really did that much. And that's I'm not trying to say that it's wrong to listen to it at all. I'm just saying it never appealed to me. Every once in a while, someone would bring a song into church that was popular on the radio.

And sometimes it's a good song. But, you know, more often than not, it if I ever because I did get like I don't say dragged, but I did have people bring me to concerts, you know, sometimes I didn't even want to go Christian concerts, people, I didn't know who they were.

And I most of the stuff that I hear, it was just I don't know, I resonated more with with a hymn book. A shallow maybe I don't know what all the adjectives I could use to describe it, but shallows the one that pops out to me the most.

But but I've had people asking me lately, like, hey, is the CRT stuff is false teaching of any kind? Is it just coming through the music, you know, regardless of good preaching? Are the people then the rest of the week listening to music that's compromising them?

And I don't really know the answer to that. But like, but I thought maybe you'd know more about that. Do you see false ideologies? Or what? How would you describe whatever quality that is that I'm.

Talking about? Is it a shallowness? What is it? Okay, so that's interesting. I kind of thought you were going to go here. So there's a principle in music speaking culturally of association. So for example, if there's a film and it's going to get romantic, well, they don't play John Phillips Sousa.

They play some nice, you know, saxophone or some nice kind of acoustic Spanish guitar. It's, you know, touch the heart strings. Or for example, reverse that it's Braveheart going into the battle. See, they're not playing Hillsong.

You know, at that point, they're playing something with meat to it. So there's, there's that aspect of associating a certain style of music with a certain activity or even worldview if you want to go that far.

So associate now try without without making the guilt by association leak. You can see that the church groups, or you want to call them the denominations or whatever that the movement is. Watch how they worship in public.

Watch what happens. And why is it that, you know, again, I'm kind of out of the loop. I'm with you, John. If I want to hear like songs on the radio, I'm just driving around. I got a 10 minute drive. If Alice Cooper's School's Out is on, that's going to get turned up.

I think it's cool. It, you know, takes me back to my, the Halcyon days of my youth, right? So no big deal. I don't listen to Christian music. I don't know what's out there. I really appreciate what John Cooper's doing in skillet.

He's still flying the flag, you know, standing for truth. But just watch, watch what happens when the preaching is over. And now we're going to worship. And everybody kind of goes in this left, right, weird mode.

And song comes on. There's long instrumental interludes. Those are the churches that are going woke in the main. Again, we're being stereotypical here. You don't want to, you know, put everybody in the same basket.

But why is that? Why are they the ones with, you know, paid, hired staff for all of the, you know, the litany of social justice causes? They're not singing out of the Trinity hymn book. They're not taking their cues even from Sovereign Grace music, although some in our circles might.

But it's more about just getting that emotional bus, setting the stage. I was talking to my nephew who wants to get into apologetics. I said, watch what happens. They're going to use music to manipulate your emotions.

Calvin warned about it. Be careful with music because people are easily led. And back in my charismatic days, we understood it completely. You want to provide a, what we call it, a seedbed for those sign gifts to grow.

And you do that by, it's like creating an atmosphere. And you do it with music. Again, you go to these big churches. And when the time for music comes, all the lights get lowered. And they're creating an atmosphere.

Look, I understand that for rock and roll and concerts and whatnot, you know, it's all about the moment and the visceral response. And, you know, as long as there's 15-year-old kids, there's going to be some kind of music that their parents hate.

That's just life, right? But in church, I don't get it. Because now we're talking about a worship service that has turned into some kind of entertainment. Somebody's getting a buzz out of this. And I'll be honest, when we're singing at our church, which basically it's four hymns a Sunday out of a hymn book or the auxiliary hymn book, as we call it.

I'll look out because I'm leading the worship with an acoustic guitar. We've got piano, organ, bass guitar, and acoustic guitar. And I will look and see people genuinely moved by the music and by the lyrics.

You know, how firm a foundation when through fiery trials thy pathway shall lie. You can see the tears. Now, listen, we're not doing that on purpose. Our intention isn't to give you a buzz and make you feel emotional.

But it naturally has that. And I think there's a difference between the programmatic, somewhat canned formulaic music that is intended to give you an emotional buzz and the natural result of a spirit born hymn that has stood the test of time.

And there's a reason it's still in the books. Okay. They stood the test of time for not because you know, I heard some guy in my studio, dude, this is like back in 06. The only reason that Mozart and Beethoven are in the canon of Western music is, and you can guess what he said, he was going to college because they're white.

Oh, I see. White European. You know, it was just the dumbest thing. No, but back to reality in the hymn books, it's what people want to sing. Let me say one more thing. Yeah, wherever you want. I've had more people come up to me in the last two years and say, I just don't get it.

We'll be at church and they're trying out all this new stuff. And I know it's on whatever Christian radio it is. And nobody is kind of like men don't know what to do with their hands. We raise them or put them down and it's just all awkward.

And then they do the obligatory hymn for the old people in the place erupts. Everybody sings and it's loud and boisterous. And they're like, why wouldn't they put two and two together, even if it's purely pragmatic, sing more hymns?

Well, because they're kind of trying to be cool and relevant and.

Ends up being uncool and irrelevant. You know, I remember years ago, I went to, this tells you how many years ago it was, I went to a Desiring God conference at Rick Warren's church. Yes, I was there.

This was, I want to say this got to be like 12 years, 13 years ago. You got the COVID man. Yeah, they had tested negative. I've heard you can't give it over Zoom. So I'm not giving it to you, but it is nasty stuff.

Anyway, so I was at this church and I wasn't there for Rick Warren. I was there because, you know, at the time I really, you know, like John Piper and they had, I think it was like five separate services for, and it was all based on music style.

It wasn't based on anything else, you know, different series they're going through different education levels nowadays, you know, maybe different ethnicities. It wasn't anything like that. It was music styles.

That was the thing that divided people at a significant factor. I thought that was fascinating. And it was like five different ones. I was like, wow, you can, you know, pretty much any style you want.

You just go to the service and all the same message, but a different music. And it shows you how important music style is to people that this is a definitional identity thing. And, and especially in California, people, you know, out there, they don't even ask you what John, or they just told you, what band do you like?

Right. And you like Mer, you, your whole life is formed around this band or something. And, and so I just, I thought that was a fascinating thing because it shows the power that music has, and it is something people, they gravitate towards certain styles for certain reasons.

And so when, when you have a church, like you just described decide, you know, as one music leader told me once, you know, we're going to, we're going to have a special service for the older people and bring out some of the hymns, but I'm going to change everything.

And we're going to go all contemporary. It's, it is a fundamental, there's a fundamental transformation going on. And it, because it's art, I think sometimes it's hard to quantify it or understand exactly what's happening, but something is happening in that.

And, and so, you know, what I hear you saying is that the social justice isn't necessarily coming in through music, but there is a, it's, it's an association that the people who would be susceptible to social justice, they're going to like, they're going to be more inclined to enjoy certain styles.

And those styles tend to be more you know, I was using the word shallow, but maybe is it man-centered? Is that.

A good word to use? What do you think? Well, possibly, you know, we, you could make the argument that as long as the lyrics are sound, the music doesn't matter, you know, that that's an kind of, it's kind of an old, and I'll call it a canard because I don't quite agree.

Again, going back to the appropriate association, that's actually teleological. That's the appropriate, like Schaefer talked about the little humpback Roman bridges in Switzerland, they were fine for carrying a, you know, a legion of soldiers because they don't weigh that much, but a modern two-ton truck would just break it.

So there are certain, seems to be certain musical styles that are more fitting for certain lyrical accounts or, you know, lyric content. And so whether, whether or not there's explicit, you know, you might, you might find a song or two there that talks about our church needs to look like heaven and, you know, they're going with the all nations.

It's pretty, you know, it's pretty hard to do that in Finland, you know,.

You guys need to look more like Zimbabwe. It's hard, it's hard to do that in Indiana.

Yeah, how about it? I mean, and really you can drive, you can drive 25 minutes from my house and there's going to be many more people from Hispanic descent. Okay, that church is going to look different.

I don't, I don't feel that I should obligate anyone that lives 25 minutes or half hour away. We're talking about the country and people in the city are like, yeah, big deal, 20 minute drive. I don't want them to feel obligated that they need to come to our church.

It's not about that. And so really we know that the unity is already bought and paid for by the Lord Jesus. The dividing wall of hostility has been broken down. So, so then now we're talking about preferences.

And I think that was probably driving the Desiring God conference. We want to appeal to people based on their preferences. Now, if you've been paying attention, you know, that always gets turned back around on the old him people, you know, well, you need to sacrifice your preferences so we can bring in this other stuff.

I'll just mention the worship band at this year's SBC conference. I was like, guys, really? This is necessary? You think this is good? Nobody sang along until the hymns came. Even with that setting, it was like, this is just weird, you know?

So yeah, I think that there's a certain kind of youth culture that as Churchill said, if you're not liberal at 20, you're heartless. If you're not conservative by 40, you're brainless. There's something to that.

He's not far off. What do you think drives?

Yeah, I'm sorry. I cut you off a little bit there. You can finish your sentence there.

No, we think we've got young people in our church that are, you know, eyes wide open, you know, based on the word, not being led by their emotions. And I think that's probably part of where you're going with this, is it's easier to lead people emotionally.

And by gum, don't we know that that's part of the playbook coming from the critical race people and social justice people. It's not about logic and facts. It's about how that person's feeling and how they.

Were triggered. And that kind of plays in there, John. Yeah, that makes perfect sense to me. And I think that's what people are sensing when they ask me about this. You know, hey, is it coming through the music?

It's not in the preaching, maybe, but is it coming through the music? And I'm like, I don't know. I mean, I what kind of music you listening to? Oh, there's no lyrics that seem like they're not talking about white privilege.

But but yeah, okay. I can see how if you if you have a bunch of people that are just very open and to any you get open, you get numb, I guess, when you when you have certain styles. I want to ask you, so I remember this is during the 500th anniversary of the Reformation.

I was in Wake Forest, North Carolina going to seminary at Southeastern, and we were still looking for a church. And we, you know, every Sunday, I got to hear a new rendition of a mighty fortress, right?

Every single Sunday. Now, of course, you have your your rendition, right for the divine line, which now you don't do that rendition in church, I'm assuming that's or do you maybe you do as much as that is the desire of my heart.

Right, because it would be hard to sing. I think that's the so you have a regimented my.

That's my rock, Tim rock voice range, I changed the key of the song to match about is where I'm comfortable on 10 or 11 with the voice, you know, in church, it's lower key. It's why my version of Psalm two has that kind of it's a different vocal because I'm playing it as written.

Well, that's how a congregation would sing and it's much lower, you know, so, you know, it's funny that that came out, I had a little bit of a time break April of 2015. And I actually reached out to Rich Pearson said, Hey, if I sent you a different version of what you guys have, because I think the topic needs a back to the, you know, what would be the appropriate music, you're talking about the most basic fundamental theology, you need something heavy.

He said, Oh, send it on. So I made it exactly the same length as the Steve Green version with the exact same quote. And so he didn't get a chance to play it until later in the summer. And that's when that's when James White looks up and goes, I'll tell you one thing.

When I was a kid, I wouldn't have been allowed to listen to that music. I just love that because it's like, we're the same age. And that was my background, you know, yeah. So, well, no, we don't do that version.

We do a version that's appropriate to.

All ages singing, singing, that's, I wouldn't want someone running out of the church going, Oh, no, no, no, you know, right, be cool. Well, and then that goes back to hearing 50 versions of this song, and they have a little chorus, they add in and you can't figure out like, you know, when the timing's all off.

And they it's like every band wanted to make it their own when I went and no one was singing. No one was saying I hate that. And when I surveyed the Wonders Cross is a great hit. When you add all the you're offending people now.

Yeah,.

Now it's turning into six minutes and it went all weird on us, man. Yeah, I agree with you.

So yeah, the aversion I think that I have to it and some people do is you sing ability is a huge factor in this that you know, songs, worship songs are meant to be sung, you're supposed to everyone should be able to participate somehow.

And if it's if the range is off, you can't do it if right, if the the melody and the and the orchestration just don't match the lyrics that you're conveying, like that doesn't fit. And so I think that's that should be the point is as a corporate body, we're singing to the Lord, we're singing, we're getting our offering him praise, we want him to hear our voices and together and not involved.

I think what you alluded to this when you said the lights go down often, it's not an individual experience. I mean, even though there could be things in your own heart, they're individual to you, but you're not, you know, you're not ignoring the rest of the room and just, you know, getting in your own worship thing.

And not that that's always wrong. But when you come together as a corporate body, it's it's it's everyone together. It's so singing to one another, right with psalms and spiritual songs, melody and hearts of the Lord.

And so, so I wonder whether or not social justice activists, right, who are all about these talk about, we got to come together, we got to do some corporate thing, corporate repentance, corporate this.

But then when it comes down to it, they're very man centered, very individualistic. And that comes through even in the music, I think, sometimes.

Corporate Worship, Hymns, and the Meaning of Music Style

Yeah, I think about the when I was first ordained, and we were already planning on how our worship service was going to look like, how are we going to quote do church, right? And my mom is a music teacher, still still alive, my mom.

And she gave me great advice. She goes, now listen, when you when you look at a hymnal, you got to remember a that was put together by committee B, the committee is probably in their late middle age, maybe even, you know, in their 60s.

So they're going to be gravitating towards the songs that they grew up with, rather than this kind of objective, let's look at all the music and put it all together. What do we think a hymn book in 2045 is going to look like?

Are people going to are we going to see these, you know, like, super popular Christian songs still being sung? I'm going to go on record and say, I don't think so. I don't think they're going to make it through the filter, even though the committee is trying to go why I used to like that song.

You know, think about all the all the different popular worship songs to the 80s and 90s. People still sing Majesty by Jack Aper.

You don't think Days of Elijah is going to make it? Sorry. It's not going to make the cut in 2045.

Okay, what, what's the most popular worship song you'll you'll always hear? And I can guarantee you, I haven't even heard it. I can only imagine what that song is. I can only imagine. Yeah. I've never heard it.

You've never heard that? Actually, I heard a little bit of it and thought, well, that's not very good.

Oh, my goodness. And I really offending people.

Well, but that's, again, that's my preference. I prefer crowning with many crowns and lead on King Eternal. Yeah. You know, all hail the power. I even like some of the some of the more modern 19th century stuff that can actually be good.

But what I really like and you hit your you hit the nail on the head. This is supposed to be sung by a group of people all together. And so you find you find some of those cool old bluesy sacred heart songs, you know, from from the early in the late 18th, early 19th century.

And oh, boy, those are excellent. Sometimes the lyrics are like, how did they put so much theology in such a little space? Just like economical with their words compacted, and it's so good.

Yeah, well, this is not a critique. This is an observation. And I think what you're saying is right. There's a revivalist hymns. They're meant to be sung corporately. There's a lot of them, at least today, I even see in conservative.

So these would be the songs that I am more familiar with just because I hear them in church often. But it's a Sovereign Grace, Gettys. Who else is that map? I don't know that there's a whole kind of yeah, the whole group there.

Oftentimes, I've noticed that the songs are very much the same. And they're all good. As far as the theme, I was a sinner, Christ saved me. And now I'm living for him or something, right? That's like, and so it's very, it's true.

It's good, but it's very individualistic. And if you sing a lot of that, that's your diet, right? That's all that you're playing that story all the time. And you just mentioned some things like lead on King Eternal.

You know, onward Christian soldiers. I mean, I don't hear those songs being written at all. You don't hear songs about heaven all that much anymore. Like I'll fly away or in the sweet by and by you till when we all get to heaven.

I don't hear that much anymore. And I don't know why that is. I really don't. But it is interesting to me that we've kind of I view it as like a dinner plate. And we've decided somewhere along the line, we just really want to eat one course.