Tim Bushong talks Christian and Worship Music

Welcome to the Conversations That Matter podcast, ladies and gentlemen. You actually heard the guest that we're going to have on today.

You're actually hearing that guest right now as I speak because Tim Bushong did the guitar riff intro and outro for the

Conversations That Matter podcast. You've also heard, I think this is one of your greatest hits, Tim, the dividing line.

What is it called? Radio Free Geneva. You do the intro. Those are your golden pipes singing the great reformer,

Martin Luther song, A Mighty Fortress. So welcome.

Welcome to the podcast that you've been playing on for now almost a year.

How does it feel to actually be on a podcast that you play guitar for? This is the best.

And I want to ask you, how does it feel to be talking virtually in a room that you've actually physically sat in?

So there. Wow. You have very meta. Yeah, I was. And actually, there's a recording studio right behind you that people can kind of see.

And it's where all the magic happens. I know. So we're Christians, not magic. All the miracles happen.

Well, God's providential. We're not. We're not Pentecostals. Right. Right. Right. His sovereignty carries out in that room.

Sovereign plan. There we go. Anyway, just introduce people to you and what you're doing. You're a pastor now.

In fact, I'm going to be at your church. I was there last fall, but in Syracuse, Indiana, October 22nd is the

Jesus and Politics Conference this year. Part three. Yeah. Part three.

Yeah. At Syracuse Baptist Church. And so you live close to there.

I know I've been at your house and we broke bread together. But you weren't always a pastor.

You were a Christian rocker. And you were part of the band Love War. Some people might remember that and know that band and the

Channel Surfers. And then you've done some solo projects as well that I have, Christmas and Hymns. So why don't you just introduce us a little bit to talk about that transition, your rocker days and then going from that to be a pastor.

Did you have to settle it down a little bit or were you able to keep that intensity in the pulpit? I could probably point you to 10 people that wish

I had settled it down a bit. No, actually, I began, you know, played music at a very young age.

All the usual. I was born in 60. So kind of coming up through the 70s and junior proms and freshman cotillions and all that kind of thing.

Always hard rock, you know, rock and roll. And I've been raised in a church and I am just I can't tell you how grateful

I am for my church upbringing. But during those days, I just I thought it was kind of irrelevant.

Watch your Ps and Qs on Sunday morning and then the rest of the week really isn't spiritual and, you know, go have some fun, go be adventurous.

And that's kind of what I did. And so I was in music. I got married in 83.

You met my wife and she's the best rock and roll wife I could ever ask for. And in 87,

I finally had just had it. I repented, truly gave my life to Christ, whether that was it, you know, that that was it or just me being like Jonah saying, all right,

I give up or with quite a combination of both. So I got to put music down. I thought that was my thing.

Let's let's get into the word. Let's learn what this faith is that I knew to be true. And then around 90,

I started writing again and really started coming up with a bunch of material, you know, a few albums worth.

And we began the band Love Word, went through many different incarnations. And we got a record deal with the

Alphonte brothers on Pachyderm and a lot of critical acclaim. People would say, well, thanks for writing stuff that doesn't insult my intelligence.

It's like I can play it for my pagan friends and they they get it for the street cred. Of course, the philosophy there was

I don't think it's quite where where Votie Baucham goes with it. You know, the bait and switch.

It's more about being able to play skillfully and doing so in any context that exists.

We would play nightclubs, bars, youth groups, whatever, and do so in a way that then at the end of the show, when the last song is done and you pepper pepper the performance with with exhortations and things of that nature.

And that way you give the gospel and you give it without any hesitation, no blushing, no apologies.

Well, then that banter and channel surfers. I'm in my late 30s. We've got three kids and I was at the same time teaching a college class at the church that we were members of.

And it just got to the point where, OK, my my kids need their dad at home. I basically live a truck driver's schedule.

So I decided to get off the road. And that's when I transferred to what you see behind you on the other side of the glass, engineering, producing and recording.

And it wasn't until 2005, 2006, where we planted a church, some families from that same church.

And we did it in such a way with their blessing. And we're still dear friends with the pastors there.

And that's when I was ordained. And then the church approached me. Would you consider being our first elder?

Yes. And then so kind of went through an examination and I was already in charge of the church music.

So it's kind of interesting how, you know, people would assume Tim Bouchon, they think, you know, the mighty fortress, you're that guy.

I would get recognized on planes for glove war. And now I get recognized at elevator.

Oh, my goodness. You're a mighty fortress guy. People might be hearing a little, you know, soundbites in the background.

Because I'm on YouTube as you're talking, looking for love war. And I found. So is it all on the

Tim Bouchon YouTube channel? Is that where, you know, it's it's not when when

I got my distro kid account, they just put the new. Actually, it's all on Spotify.

Oh, you haven't taken your music off Spotify yet. You. Yeah, well,

I don't think I'm making a big enough splash, you know. Now you get CNN at your house. If you if you did say we're going to take our love wars music off because Joe Rogan or something like that, you may get a revival.

So. All right. So Spotify is where we stand with your brother. Yeah. You and Neil Young.

Yeah. So so that's I mean, that's interesting. So, I mean, not

I don't know a lot of Christian rockers who kind of made that transition to being a pastor.

And there seems to be I'm not huge in the Christian rock scene, but the ones that I know, even even like the solid ones, like I'm thinking of, oh, what's the really popular striper striper?

Right. Yeah. I mean, I know a guy who who worked with them pretty closely. And, you know, a lot of these bands are not trying to pick on anyone in particular, but stripers are the one that's come just popping out my mind because I have a friend who worked with them.

There's there's the onstage kind of persona. There's the music. There's there's the throwing out the

Bibles and all this. But then there is a connection to the corporate world is the the record labels.

And it's inescapable. Right. And that is a huge pitfall.

Temptation, just the worldliness, right? Worldliness. So what you know, what's it like out there?

You've rubbed shoulders with with with a lot of the bands that at least in the 90s were popular is

I mean, is it like a strain on one's soul to get involved in even

Christian rock music or contemporary Christian music? John, that's a great question.

And let me say it this way, if you see something in Christian music that's kind of disturbing or, you know, seems off kilter, well, you could probably find the same corollary behind the pulpit almost anywhere.

The problem is when when you're going to be committed to a band, it's not just you anymore.

It's these three or four other guys and you've got a tour. There's there's no question about it.

You have to hit the road. And if you're married and you've got kids, it's going to be a lot harder. I know

I'm thinking of two particular guys that I had great respect for back in the 90s as music musicians who put out excellent material and who are both now in conservative pastoral ministry.

Frank Hart from Atomic Opera and now he's a Missouri Synod Lutheran. And Chris Niswonger from the band

Precious Death. He's a Presbyterian pastor down just south of Memphis. I'd be hard pressed.

One of the problems is, too, that there's no middle class in music. You've either got the really high echelon where they're really making bank and able to do it.

And then there's nothing in the middle. And then all of the rest of us dweebs just barely scraping by, you know.

And so the temptation is always going to be towards that kind of the allure of making some more money.

You know, you can just imagine you're struggling, you're on the road, something comes up and, you know, they call it deconstruction now.

But I've seen guys doing this for years and years, you know, guys who I sat next to, you know, sharing the gospel with on the same stage.

And now they're deconstructing and or, you know, going through whatever it is.

There's nothing new under the sun. This is just the same old, you know, it was emergent back in the... Let me turn my phone off.

Yeah, go for it. Yeah, you know, the emergent church that went through the same kind of thing.

And it's weird when you're at the same time you're talking about artsy people, you know, just be creative.

As long as you're saying something, that's the important part. Then you got the rest of us out here going, well, no, the content's important.

You want to think through this, be intentional. And yeah,

I've seen some tragic situations where families are just atomized, divorce.

And at the same time, and again, in the middle of that, you see guys that have gone on to whether it's pastoral ministry or, you know, they didn't fall away.

So, you know, I don't know if it's endemic. I think being on the road is really hard because you're not connected to the church.

That's a big problem. Right. Yeah, there's no accountability there. You can kind of get away with things as you're staying in hotels or other places.

By the way, let me say something about Stryper because sometimes they get a, you know, you're like, well, you know, 80s metal.

I met and got to know Michael Sweet a little when we were mixing the first Love War record.

He was recording his first solo record. This is in the same studio in L .A. And he told me without any hesitation that they had really gotten off the beam on,

I think it was a particular record in 91 or whatever. I can't remember, which is, yeah. I mean, we thought, hey, let's go for the brass ring on this.

And it almost blew up their band and a bunch of marriages. Now, thank

God that didn't happen. You know, I thought that was interesting. He's like willing to say, no, that was that was a huge mistake.

We almost ruined our lives trying to pursue something that was just ungodly.

Yeah. So I mean, what advice would you have for people, to a young person today who wants to get involved with Christian contemporary music?

You know, I'll be honest. I've been out of that scene for, man, now it's 22 years.

I got off the road in late 99, really didn't have much interaction. I don't even know what's going on.

But you don't watch the Super Bowl either. So, yeah, yeah, I guess

I didn't. I didn't own that stuff in the 90s. So I'm probably not going to be interested in it now. No.

So back to the back to that issue. My advice would be, first of all, music is like anything else.

It's got these basic structures and tools and everything. And practice, get really good.

But the main thing is, you're going to really try it. You're going to be subject to the producers and to the executives of the record companies.

And if you really want to be an artist, forget all that. We got the Internet now. Be an independent artist.

Put your own stuff out there and stay connected to your local church. Make sure that your pastors, the members of the church, the people that grew up watching you as those little kids fall down.

Now you're a teenager and you want to be a rock star. Miss Hathaway, Jethro wants to be a rock star.

And stay connected to those people. They know you, they love you. They may not understand your musical taste.

I get it. I like stuff that most of the people in my church are like, that's

Pastor Tim. And that's okay. We don't bring it into church.

That's another topic. But yeah, stay connected to the people that know you and love you and know the

Bible and aren't afraid to say, nah, I don't think that'd be wise, son.

Why don't we try this channel or this direction? Now, I've had some questions lately from people who have a suspicion about Christian music,

I guess. And I'm just going to be very open with everyone who's listening. I don't really listen to the contemporary

Christian music station in my area. I don't really even know what's out there. I never really did that much.

And I'm not trying to say that it's wrong to listen to it at all. I'm just saying it never appealed to me.

Every once in a while, someone would bring a song into church that was popular on the radio, and sometimes it's a good song.

But more often than not, if I ever... Because I did get,

I don't want to say dragged, but I did have people bring me to concerts. Sometimes I didn't even want to go,

Christian concerts, people I didn't know who they were. And most of the stuff that I hear, it was just,

I don't know. I resonated more with a hymn book. Shallow, maybe.

I don't know what all the adjectives I could use to describe it, but shallow is the one that pops out to me the most.

But I've had people asking me lately, like, hey, is the CRT stuff, is false teaching of any kind?

Is it just coming through the music? Regardless of good preaching, are the people then, the rest of the week, listening to music that's compromising them?

And I don't really know the answer to that. But I thought maybe you'd know more about that.

Do you see false ideologies? How would you describe whatever quality that is that I'm talking about?

Is it a shallowness? What is it? Okay, so that's interesting. I kind of thought you were going to go here.

So there's a principle in music speaking culturally of association.

So, for example, if there's a film and it's going to get romantic, well, they don't play

John Philip Sousa. They play some nice saxophone or some nice kind of acoustic Spanish guitar, and it's, you know, touch the heart strings.

Or, for example, reverse that, it's Braveheart going into the battle scene.

They're not playing Hillsong, you know, at that point. They're playing something with meat to it. So there's that aspect of associating a certain style of music with a certain activity or even worldview, if you want to go that far.

So associate now, without making the guilt by association leak, you can see that the church groups, or if you want to call them the denominations or whatever the movement is, watch how they worship in public.

Watch what happens. And why is it that, you know, again,

I'm kind of out of the loop. I'm with you, John. If I want to hear like songs on the radio, I'm just driving around.

I got a 10 -minute drive. If Alice Cooper's School's Out is on, that's going to get turned up.

I think it's cool. It takes me back to the halcyon days of my youth, right? So no big deal.

I don't listen to Christian music. I don't know what's out there. I really appreciate what John Cooper's doing in Skillet.

He's still flying the flag, standing for truth. But just watch what happens when the preaching is over, and now we're going to worship, and everybody kind of goes in this left -right weird mode, song comes on, there's long instrumental interludes.

Those are the churches that are going, whoa, in the main. Again, we're being stereotypical here.

You don't want to put everybody in the same basket. But why is that?

Why are they the ones with paid, hired staff for all of the litany of social justice causes?

They're not singing out of the Trinity hymn book. They're not taking their cues even from sovereign grace music, although some in our circles might.

But it's more about just getting that emotional buzz, setting the stage. I was talking to my nephew who wants to get into apologetics.

I said, watch what happens. They're going to use music to manipulate your emotions.

Calvin warned about it. He said, be careful with music because people are easily led. And back in my charismatic days, we understood it completely.

You want to provide a, what we call it, a seedbed for those sign gifts to grow.

And you do that by, it's like creating an atmosphere, and you do it with music. Again, you go to these big churches, and when the time for music comes, all the lights get lowered, and they're creating an atmosphere.

Look, I understand that for rock and roll concerts and whatnot, it's all about the moment and the visceral response.

As long as there's 15 -year -old kids, there's going to be some kind of music that their parents hate. That's just life, right?

But in church, I don't get it, because now we're talking about a worship service that has turned into some kind of entertainment.

Somebody's getting a buzz out of this. And I'll be honest, when we're singing at our church, which basically it's four hymns a

Sunday out of a hymn book, or the auxiliary hymn book, as we call it, I'll look out, because I'm leading the worship with an acoustic guitar.

We've got piano, organ, bass guitar, and acoustic guitar. And I will look and see people genuinely moved by the music and by the lyrics.

You know, how firm a foundation when through fiery trials thy pathway shall lie.

You can see the tears. Now, listen, we're not doing that on purpose, that our intention isn't to give you a buzz and make you feel emotional.

But it naturally has that. And I think there's a difference between the programmatic, somewhat canned, formulaic music that is intended to give you an emotional buzz, and the natural result of a spirit born hymn that has stood the test of time.

And there's a reason it's still in the books. They stood the test of time for not because of, you know,

I heard some guy in my studio, dude, this is like, back in 06. The only reason that Mozart and Beethoven are in the canon of Western music is, and you can guess what he said, he was going to college.

And that's because they're white. Oh, I see. White European, you know, it was just the dumbest thing.

No. But back to reality in the hymn books, it's what people want to sing. Let me say one more thing.

Yeah. Wherever you want. I've had more people come up to me in the last two years and say,

I just don't get it. We'll be at church. And they're trying out all this new stuff. And I know it's on whatever

Christian radio it is. And nobody, it's kind of like men don't know what to do with their hands. We raise them or put them down.

And it's just all awkward stuff. And then they do the obligatory hymn for the old people.

And the place erupts. Everybody sings. And it's loud and boisterous.

Yeah. And they're like, why wouldn't they put two and two together, even if it's purely pragmatic, sing more hymns?

Well, because they're kind of trying to be cool and relevant and ends up being uncool and irrelevant.

You know, I remember years ago, I went to, this tells you how many years ago it was. I went to a

Desiring God conference at Rick Warren's church. Yes, I was there.

This was, I want to say, this got to be like 12 years, 13 years ago. You got the

COVID, man. Yeah, they had tested negative. I've heard you can't give it over Zoom.

So I'm not giving it to you. But it is nasty stuff.

Anyway, so I was at this church and I wasn't there for Rick Warren. I was there because, you know, at the time

I really, you know, like John Piper. And they had,

I think it was like five separate services for, and it was all based on music style.

It wasn't based on anything else, you know, different series they're going through, different education levels.

Nowadays, you know, maybe different ethnicities. It wasn't anything like that. It was music styles.

That was the thing that divided people as a significant factor. I thought that was fascinating.

And it was like five different ones. I was like, wow, you can, you know, pretty much any style you want. You just go to the service and all the same message, but a different music.

And it shows you how important music style is to people. This is a definitional identity thing.

And especially in California, people, you know, out there, they don't even ask you what genre they just, what band do you like?

Right. And you like your whole life is formed around this band or something. And so I just,

I thought that was a fascinating thing because it shows the power that music has.

And it is something people, they gravitate towards certain styles for certain reasons.

And so when, when you have a church, like you just described, decide, you know, as one worship music leader told me once, you know, we're going to, we're going to have a special service for the older people and bring out some of the hymns, but I'm going to change everything.

And we're going to go all contemporary. It's, it is a fundamental, there's a fundamental transformation going on.

And because it's art, I think sometimes it's hard to quantify it or understand exactly what's happening, but something is happening in that.

And, and so, you know, what I hear you saying is that the social justice isn't necessarily coming in through music, but there is a, it's, it's an association that the people who would be susceptible to social justice, they're going to like, they're going to be more inclined to enjoy certain styles.

And those styles tend to be more, you know, I was using the word shallow, but maybe is it man -centered?

Is that a good word to use? What do you think? Well, possibly, you know, we, you could make the argument that as long as the lyrics are sound, the music doesn't matter, you know, that that's an, it's kind of an old, and I'll call it a canard because I don't quite agree.

Again, going back to the appropriate association, that's actually teleological. That's the appropriate, like Schaefer talked about the little humpback

Roman bridges in Switzerland, they were fine for carrying a, you know, a legion of soldiers because they don't weigh that much, but a modern two -ton truck would just break it.

So there are certain, seems to be certain musical styles that are more fitting for certain lyrical accounts or, you know, lyric content.

And so whether, whether or not there's explicit, you know, you might, you might find a song or two there that talks about our church needs to look like heaven.

And, you know, they're going with the all nations. It was pretty, you know, it's pretty hard to do that in Finland.

You know, you guys need to look more like Zimbabwe. Well, it's hard to do that in Indiana.

Yeah. How about it? I mean, and really you can drive, you can drive 25 minutes from my house and there's going to be many more people from Hispanic descent.

Okay. That church is going to look different. I don't, I don't feel that I should obligate anyone that lives 25 minutes or half hour away.

We're talking about the country and people in the city are like, yeah, big deal. 20 minute drive. I don't want them to feel obligated that they need to come to our church.

It's not about that. And so really we know that the unity is already bought and paid for by the

Lord Jesus. The dividing wall of hostility has been broken down. So, so then now we're talking about preferences.

And I think that was probably driving the Desiring God conference. We want to appeal to people based on their preferences.

Now, if you've been paying attention, you know, that always gets turned back around on the old him people, you know, well, you need to sacrifice your preferences so that we can bring in this other stuff.

I'll just mention the worship band at this year's SBC conference. I was like, guys, really?

This is necessary? You think this is good? Nobody sang along until the hymns came.

Even with that setting, it was like, this is just weird, you know? So yeah, I think that there's a certain kind of youth culture that as Churchill said, if you're not liberal at 20, you're heartless.

If you're not conservative by 40, you're brainless. There's something to that. He's not far off.

What do you think drives? Yeah, sorry, I cut you off a little bit there. You can finish your sentence there.

No, we think we've got young people in our church that are, you know, eyes wide open, you know, based on the word, not being led by their emotions.

And I think that's probably part of where you're going with this, is it's easier to lead people emotionally.

And by gum, don't we know that that's part of the playbook coming from the critical race people and social justice people.

It's not about logic and facts. It's about how that person's feeling and how they were triggered.

And that kind of plays in there, John. Yeah, no, that makes perfect sense to me. And I think that's what people are sensing when they ask me about this, you know, hey, is it coming through the music?

It's not in the preaching maybe, but is it coming through the music? And I'm like, I don't know. What kind of music are you listening to?

There's no lyrics that seem like they're not talking about white privilege. But yeah,

OK. I can see how if you have a bunch of people that are just very open to anything, you get open, you get numb,

I guess, when you have certain styles. I want to ask you. So I remember this is during the 500th anniversary of the

Reformation. I was in Wake Forest, North Carolina, going to seminary at Southeastern, and we were still looking for a church.

You know, every Sunday I got to hear a new rendition of A Mighty Fortress, right? Every single

Sunday. Now, of course, you have your rendition for the dividing line, which you don't do that rendition in church,

I'm assuming. Or do you? Maybe you do. As much as that is the desire of my heart.

Right. Because it would be hard to sing, I think. So you have a regimented.

That's my Tim Rock voice range. I change the key of the song to match about where I'm comfortable on 10 or 11 with the voice.

You know, in church, it's lower key. It's why my version of Psalm 2 has that kind of it's a different vocal because I'm playing it as written.

Well, that's how a congregation would sing, and it's much lower, you know. So, you know, it's funny that that came out.

I had a little bit of a time break, April of 2015. And I actually reached out to Rich Pierce and said, hey, if I sent you a different version of what you guys have, because I think the topic needs back to the, you know, what would be the appropriate music?

You're talking about the most basic fundamental theology. You need something heavy. He said, oh, send it on.

So I made it exactly the same length as the Steve Green version with the exact same quote.

And so he didn't get a chance to play it until later in the summer. And that's when

James White looks up and goes, I'll tell you one thing. When I was a kid, I wouldn't have been allowed to listen to that music.

I just love that because it's like, we're the same age. And that was my background, you know. So, no, we don't do that version.

We do a version that's appropriate to all ages singing. Singing. I wouldn't want someone running out of the church going, oh, no, no, no.

You know, right. It'd be cool. Well, and then that goes back to hearing 50 versions of this song.

And they have a little chorus they add in. And you can't figure out, like, you know, when the timing's all off.

And it's like every band wanted to make it their own when I went. And no one was singing. I hate that.

No one was singing. I hate that. When I say The Wonder's Cross is a great hymn.

When you add, oh, the wonder. You're offending people now. Now it's turning into six minutes and it went all weird on us, man.

No, no. I agree with you. So, yeah, the aversion I think that I have to it and some people do is singability is a huge factor in this.

So, you know, songs, worship songs are meant to be sung. Everyone should be able to participate somehow.

And if the range is off, you can't do it. That's right. If the melody and the orchestration just don't match the lyrics that you're conveying, like that doesn't fit.

And so I think that should be the point is as a corporate body, we're singing to the Lord. We're singing, we're offering him praise.

We want him to hear our voices and together and not involved. I think what you alluded to this when you said the lights go down often.

It's not an individual experience. I mean, even though there could be things in your own heart that are individual to you, but you're not, you know, you're not ignoring the rest of the room and just, you know, getting in your own worship thing.

And not that that's always wrong. But when you come together as a corporate body, it's everyone together.

It's so singing to one another, right? With psalms and spiritual songs, melody in the hearts of the

Lord. And so I wonder whether or not social justice activists who are all about these talk about we got to come together.

We got to do some corporate thing. We got corporate repentance, corporate this. But then when it comes down to it, they're very man -centered, very individualistic.

And that comes through even in the music, I think sometimes. Yeah. Well, think about the, when

I was first ordained and we were already planning on how our worship service was going to look like, how are we going to quote do church, right?

And my mom is a music teacher, still alive, my mom. And she gave me great advice.

She goes, now, listen, when you look at a hymnal, you got to remember, A, that was put together by committee.

B, the committee is probably in their late middle age, maybe even, you know, in their 60s.

So they're going to be gravitating towards the songs that they grew up with rather than this kind of objective, let's look at all the music and put it all together.

What do we think a hymn book in 2045 is going to look like? Are we going to see these, you know, like super popular

Christian songs still being sung? I'm going to go on record and say,

I don't think so. I don't think they're going to make it through the filter, even though the committee is trying to go, well,

I used to like that song. You know, think about all the different popular worship songs to the 80s and 90s.

People still sing Majesty by Jack Aper. You don't think Days of Elijah is going to make it?

It's not going to make the cut in 2045. Okay, what's the most popular worship song you'll always hear?

And I can guarantee you, I haven't even heard it. I can only imagine what that song is.

I can only imagine, yeah. I've never heard it. You've never heard that song?

Actually, I heard a little bit of it and thought, well, that's not very good. Oh, my goodness. That's not really offending people.

Well, but that's, again, that's my preference. I prefer Crown Him with Many Crowns and Lead on O King Eternal.

Yeah. You know, All Hail the Power. I even like some of the more modern 19th century stuff.

That can actually be good. But what I really like, and you hit the nail on the head, this is supposed to be sung by a group of people all together.

And so you find some of those cool, old, bluesy, sacred harp songs, you know, from the early, the late 18th, early 19th century.

And oh, boy, those are excellent. Sometimes the lyrics are like, how did they put so much theology in such a little space?

Just like economical with their words, compacted, and it's so good. Yeah. Well, this is not a critique.

This is an observation. And I think what you're saying is right. Those revivalist hymns, they're meant to be sung corporately.

There's a lot of them, at least. Today, I even see in conservative. So these would be the songs that I am more familiar with, just because I hear them in church often.

But Sovereign Grace, Gettys. Who else is that? Matt Papa. I don't know. There's a whole kind of, yeah, the whole group there.

Oftentimes, I've noticed the songs are very much the same, and they're all good as far as the theme. You know,

I was a sinner. Christ saved me. And now I'm living for him or something, right? That's like, and so it's very, it's true.

It's good, but it's very individualistic. And if you sing a lot of that, that's your diet, right?

That's all that you're replaying that story all the time. And you just mentioned some hymns like Lead on King Eternal, Onward Christian Soldiers.

I mean, I don't hear those songs being written at all. You don't hear songs about heaven all that much anymore.

Like I'll Fly Away or In the Sweet By and By. Till when we all get to heaven.

I don't hear that much anymore. And I don't know why that is. I really don't. But it is interesting to me that we've kind of,

I view it as like a dinner plate. And we've decided somewhere along the line, we just really want to eat one course.

And there's all these other courses that Scripture gives us. All I want is the pasta. I just want the pasta. I don't even want sauce on the pasta, right?

And it's like pasta's good. I love pasta, but you know, there's maybe some chicken or some meatballs with that pasta and some vegetables.

Or so, you know, I don't know if you thought of that, if you have an explanation, is that a cultural moment that we're in?

Or does that go along with the sort of this emotional individual experience?

Why do you think that is? All right. So great stuff. Great observations,

John. And again, no one should watch this and go, well, he's insulting my favorite music. Yeah, I'm not trying to at all.

I love it. You know, that could carry off into, you know, he didn't like that film.

How could he not like Forrest Gump? My goodness. You know, it's like enough already. You know, this is part of this is preference.

And honestly, I think we would have to be nature -graced dualists at the most extreme to not agree that some of this is in the eye of the beholder.

Some of it. Just the initial visceral response to something you first hearing because it's all coming through the years.

It's auditory. Well, it's similar to beauty being in the eye of the beholder, right?

OK, someone for everyone. Praise God for that. I can think of like three different bands where I remember right where I was sitting when

I first heard them. And I went, wow, that's different. That's cool. I like that.

OK, take that and apply it back to our hymn committee who put together the

Baptist Hymnal in 1975. There are some editorial choices in there that I do not understand.

And I think it was reflective of their theology at the time. So, you know, for such a worm as I has been replaced for a sinner such as I.

You know, you don't want to think of yourself too low like a worm, right? What's one of the most famous verses in all of Toplity's hymns?

Rock of Ages, verse four. Nothing in my hands I bring only to thy cross

I cling. Naked come to thee for dress. That verse just isn't even there. It's gone.

Why? Why did they feel like that would be inappropriate to include in a hymnal in 75?

But then remember, all these people are probably about 60, 65 years old. They're remembering the revivals when they were kids and the

Moody Sankey. And what were those songs about? It's about my personal experience.

It's about what it could even be. This is what God has done for me. You ask me how

I know he lives? Well, Romans one, Psalm 19. No, no, no. It's utterly personal, lives within my heart.

Well, again, there's nothing new. Some of these songs are just like that.

They're talking about what your personal experience has been. By the way, I'm not against experience.

Again, people will take what I'm saying and say, oh, so you must be opposed to any existential.

No, I just said people will bawl when they're singing all creatures of our God and King. Praise, praise the

Father. Oh my goodness, yeah. So I think part of it is that kind of mentality that was probably coming into the fore during the

Prohibition era, during the Civil War, on after through that kind of part of the whole,

I'll say, feminization of the church. And if you ask any Christian radio

DJ, who is their primary fundamental audience? Who are they trying to reach?

What's it going to be? Housewives. Yeah. Between the age of 28 and 40. Yep, yep.

Because they pay the bills. Yeah, I've seen other genres go that same direction, too.

It seems like they're all kind of going that direction. And so that's a good thing.

I think that when a church intentionally gears their music towards a certain demographic.

What does that say about every other demographic? You're kind of like, you're not really that.

It's not that critical that we either keep you. It's like a local town giving property tax abatements to the new businesses.

What about the rest of us that have stuck it out all these years? How's that fair? Well, in a way, it's like the old person in the pew.

And they said, well, we've decided that the early service is traditional and the late service is more contemporary.

But now we've got people coming to all of them. So we're just going to make the whole thing contemporary. They kind of throw you under the bus in the name of being relevant,

I guess. And again, I go back to the people that have come to me and said, man, when they pull out name to him, you know, it is well with my soul.

The place erupts. I mean, the decibel level gets noticeably higher because everyone sings.

Come on. Yeah. I think that's excellent, because what I hear you saying is that there are objective elements to music and there's subjective elements.

There's two different elements here. And so there's some criteria, you know, you want singability. You want good theology.

You want all ages and the people who are coming to the church department to participate, to be able to participate.

You know, these are some like essential elements that you and we'll find that in scripture,

I think, as well. We're going to find that it's all people coming together, one voice to the

Lord. You see this even in the example of ancient Israel. And then there's these subjective elements and maybe one more objective.

I don't even know. This is kind of on that border of whether it's objective or subjective, because there's elements to this that are both.

But you want the mode to match the message, right? And so all of that, that's kind of a given.

And then the subjective elements would just be like, you know, what style do you really like to listen to it?

Instrumentation sounds good to some extent, perhaps the decibel level, you know, as long as it's not hurting your ears.

You know, some people like it louder. Some people like it softer. And those things we can probably have just grace with one another.

I think we can just yeah, I'm not big into that song, but look, I can sing it. You can sing it like let's let's worship together.

And that's fine if it's not my favorite. You know, people would assume because I did a lot of touring in 97, especially 97, 98.

And I was on the road before all that. But so I would always make it a point to drive through the night

Saturday so I could be at church with my family. And there were times where, you know, I'm outside the band van at seven in the morning shaving, doing the road shower.

And I would just drive to the church and my wife and kids would meet me there and we'd worship together. You know, everybody had this assumption that since I like edgier, funkier, heavier, harder music, that that's what

I would really like in church. And it's polar opposite. I mean, last year at the

Founders Conference, all they had was Bob Coughlin with a piano. And this is it.

Not McLean, but it's the big church where they're having anyway. Big room, huge. They could have had a huge band up there.

It would have been fine, whatever. But it was just him and a piano. And of course,

Bob is very experienced. He knows what he's doing. I think he's a godly man.

Some of his songs are really good. But boy, oh boy, let me tell you, when it got to Christ the

Sure and Steady Anchor, I was blubbering like a baby. Now, it didn't take lowering the lights or the perfect guitar hits or any of that stuff.

All it is, is I'm thinking second verse, deeper still goes the anchor. I could thank you,

God. Right. Same thing. You know, one guy with an acoustic guitar can do just fine.

You don't need all the bells and whistles. And hopefully, again, like you mentioned, singability.

It seems to be, okay, can everyone kind of join in this? I understand they're going to be more difficult songs for all the saints who from their labors.

Great, whatever. But after you sing it about three times, you know it.

And little kids know it. I absolutely love it. At the end of the service, we all raise our hands in the air.

And we either sing the doxology or the Gloria Patri. And there's a number of larger families.

And their kids are like full volume, not on pitch. And it's glorious.

All those notes being sanctified by the Spirit of God to His throne. And it's beautiful without any instrumentation.

Yeah. Worship is something that takes place, whether, I mean, it's something the

Spirit does, right? So, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. You remember

Cornerstone Festival? Were you old enough for that to be a thing? I don't.

No, I don't remember that. Sorry. So, in the 80s and through the 90s, that was the place. If you're a

Christian rock band, you got to play Cornerstone. And it's the best. Glenn Kaiser had a

Musicians, Music Musicians and Ministry course that he would go through. One year, he brought in Dr.

Harold Best, who was the Professor of Music at Wheaton. Now, this is 88, so Wheaton's not woke yet.

Great. Anyway, he made the outstanding statement that if we were relying on certain music styles in order to be able to worship, we were idolaters.

Now, I was just a young Christian at the time. And I was like, oh, I see what he means.

Because that makes a thing on the same level as the Spirit of God. That's taking the thing.

Because you've got a room full of these long hair, wannabe Christian rock guys. And he's saying, y 'all are squares.

You don't even sing hymns anymore. You're squares. And there's one more thing

I'll relate, and then wherever you want to go. But years ago, I had an old buddy of mine, really sharp theologically, spot on, reads all the big books.

So he came and visited the church. And after the worship service, he was walking around with this weird kind of dumbfounded, glazed over expression like, how about, how about.

I said, hey, it was so good to see you. I know you had to make a little drive. And he looked up at me and says,

I can't believe it. I'm the traditionalist. I'm the one stuck in a rut.

Because all he had experienced for 20 years is thumping rock band, 25 minutes, slower song, lower the lights.

And then, and then we got to hear a sermon. It was so funny. I was like, yeah, I know. I know. It's cool.

I'm the traditionalist. I want to, I want to read, that is funny.

I want to read some, some verses just for everyone on this topic. This isn't necessarily exhaustive, but Colossians three says, let the word of Christ own you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms, hymns, spiritual songs with thankfulness in your hearts to God.

So it is commanded to sing. And we do have different genres coming out. Psalms, hymns, spiritual songs.

There is supposed to be wisdom in this, right? So there there's, you know, that that's where you're not letting the 20 year old punk rock star pick out all the songs that you do.

Right. Cause he's the hip cool guy. You know, there's wisdom in this. There's a congregational element and elders should have some oversight in a church.

And neither do you let the 61 year old rocker choose a bunch of old hard rock songs.

Right. No. Yeah. You don't, you don't let that happen either. Yeah. Yeah. Throughout the

Psalms, so many verses, Psalm 105, sing to him, sing praises to him, tell of his wondrous works.

Psalm 150 has, this is where, I mean, some people will bring up the regulative principle. You shouldn't have instruments or something.

And, and, you know, Psalm 150, I just, it mentions the trumpet, the lute, the harp, tambourine dance, even,

I know that's making some Baptists really nervous now. Oh yeah. The strings, pipes, cymbals.

I mean, this is a loud display that's happening in Psalm 150.

And so, yeah, I mean, you see a lot when people are joyful throughout, especially

David throughout the Psalms, he sings, that's what he does. Right. It's what am I going to do? How am I going to express the praise that I have?

And that's, that's how I think about it. John, John 4, 24 says, God is spirit.

Those who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth. And in that same passage, it says, God's God's searching for these worshipers.

And so that's, that's how I view, you know, music in the church. It's an, it's an overflow. It's an outpouring is, you know, how could we not react when, when our

God is so good, when these are his attributes, we have to sing about them. Um, and that that's going to be an emotional experience because of the truth that's deep in us more than anything else.

Well, that's, that's interesting. We kind of structure our worship as hymns that are in response to something that just took place.

So it's not all like all four hymns, 20 minutes all at the same time. It's like this, then we confess other things.

Then we sing a hymn in response to that. It kind of builds up to that. I can't remember the song where it's a constant call and response between the, what would be the worship leader and the people.

There's a couple old Baptist hymns that do that. And they're fun because the kids get it real fast.

And then you've got the whole topic of singing psalms themselves. You know, do we think we're working on it?

We've got, we probably have 10 in rotation now, 140 to go by the way.

Wouldn't it be ironic for a exclusive psalmody and regular principle church to sing 150?

Yeah. I mean, there's so many, I've been in so many different churches too, or the styles are different, but they're all worshiping.

And that's, you can do it with, I mean, people that go to Africa, right. And they're hearing a totally different style, but the people are participating, they're singing great truths.

So, so there is a distinction, I think we're saying between music and the church and then what you were doing out on the road, there's sort of the contemporary

Christian industry that that's, there is an entertainment element to that, which, and it's not wrong, right. But it's not, we don't, we don't think that that is necessarily always appropriate for the

Lord's day service necessarily. Exactly. In our, in our catechism, well, we, we just went to using wine and communion and even in our confession of faith, it talks about how the minister distributes, it sets them apart from normal lunch, you know, the bread and wine, the

Lord's supper. This isn't just, you know, breakfast. It's different. I think that's the same thing.

It is the Lord's service. It's His, right. And, and in, in view of the, the goal to have everyone feel like they're involved and not just welcome, you know, cause that's sometimes the argument, how are you going to welcome the biker?

If you don't play Born to be Wild, that's kind of silly. No one would have thought of that in the first century.

Right. Right. How is that gladiator going to feel at home? Unless you do those, these kinds of performance, you know, mode, but all of that is right on John.

I mean, you think about, we want, we want people to sing together, want it to kind of flow naturally, even, even if it's a challenging song, that's cool.

Practice it, learn it, and, and just let God do what God does. I think we've experienced, you know, our growth in our local church, just by saying,

God, you do what you do and we want to be faithful to you. And again, if we had a drum kit, we would have a full rock band.

We just haven't found anyone that's good enough yet. Well, a little story for you. I remember my dad's a pastor.

So I remember when I was in youth group, right. I've seen more battles over music than almost anything else. And, and I would say for the last,

I don't know, 20 or 15 years, there really haven't been problems in the music ministry. But, but before that, when

I was in my more early teens, there, there was a guy I remember who really wanted to bring in punk rock, right.

Put the graffiti on the trash cans, put them on top of the baptismal, get the smoke machines out.

Let's really, yeah. Right. And, and, and baby Mohawks, you know, actually,

I think maybe one of them did have a Mohawk. So, and, and so we're going to, you know, we're doing some punk rock here and, and we're going to get the kids in that way.

Right. That's the way to do it. And it was more of a youth group type activity. And so my dad and I think another parent were sitting downstairs and all of a sudden the floor starts flexing.

And, and he's, he's like, well, you know, what's going on, what's, what's happening up there. And I think he contemplated turning off the power to the entire church at that moment.

Uh, because the, the guys on the stage, uh, the, you know, leading this wanted all the kids in the youth group to jump up and down.

It was awkward at first. It wasn't natural. Like what these youth group kids are like, what? And he's like, no, you got to jump up and down, you know, is trying to get, yeah.

Artificially produce this, this environment that would, you know, try to attract the worldly kids.

And, um, and so some parents got upset about it and thought, you know, my kids, you know, this isn't, it's not good for their hearing.

It's not, you know, whatever, you know, some parents probably were fine with it. Some kids probably liked it some, but you know, some didn't, it wasn't, there wasn't agreement on that.

This was the way to go. And one of the things that stood out to me, and I, I I've remembered this is that, um, remember my dad saying something to, he's like, look,

I admire the heart that you have in this, but the thing to do would be, you know, take this style that you're saying that the kids at the high school,

I can go to the high school or like go to a venue, um, where, where those people congregate and use it as an evangelism tool.

You know, don't, don't bring that all into the church and then expect that, you know, we should just get used to doing what, what people in the world are doing necessarily like with garbage cans, to adapt to that cultural manifestation.

Right. And then attract them with the right things, you know, and when they come to you and they, you know, they're crying and they, they, they want to confess their sin, you know, you can invite them to church and, and it's going to resonate with them.

You don't need some extra like, you know, style to get them in because they already want to come in. They, the spirit of God's working on them.

And I just thought, wow, that's, that is the way it's supposed to be done. You don't need an extra thing. And it's the motive. That's the thing

I was trying to get at is it's the motive behind all of it. That's the important part is, you know, why are you doing what you're doing?

Your dad exhibited pastoral wisdom. He didn't, he didn't squash their zeal for Christ.

He was trying to channel it in the right way. Like, like you do with a teenager who's, you know, testosterone is off the chart.

He wanted him to be a man, but it's going this way. So no, this way, this way it's disciplined and tamed and, and appropriate to the situation.

Right, right. So, so anyway, I just wanted to, yeah, pick your brain on this.

And I think this is very helpful. Where can people find your music if they want to get your hymns album or your

Christmas album or anything else? I'm on all the, all the digital platforms.

If you look up Tim Busch on, on those platforms, you'll find my hymn

CD. We're actually planning on volume two battle hymns for weary souls. And by the way,

Michael Foster gave me that title in about two seconds. I said,

I need it. I need a hymn title. And he just blurted it out. I'm like, well, thanks. That's a marketing guy.

My Christmas stuff. And you can find Love War on there and you can find the channel surfers on there.

And I've got a Facebook page that kind of handles all my musical endeavors.

And so, yeah, it's, it's good. I was just going to say that.

What you said about taking it out, taking that punk band and playing out somewhere.

Right. Absolutely. But stay connected to your church. Yeah. Have it all, man.

Yeah. All right. So in closing, everyone's going to hear the, the, the riff.

So that, that is Tim Busch song on his guitar. And you can go, I guess there's not a sign up yet for the conference in the fall, but they can email you.

I have that on the website actually at worldview conversation .com. You go to speaking and you'll see

October 22nd at Syracuse, Indiana, Jesus and politics conference. And then Tim's emails right there.

If you have questions or concerns, you want to call him a heretic because of something he said on this podcast.

Don't message me about that message, Tim. He will take all your questions. You speak ill of elevation anyway.

Yeah. Well, I appreciate it, Tim. Hey, God bless. Thanks for carving out some time for us.

I know you're busy as a pastor, but I think it's helpful for people. So, well, thank you so much, John.

It's great to, great to interact here and I look forward to seeing you in October. All right.

Get around the campfire again, buddy. Oh yes. Yeah. Looking forward to it. All right. God bless. All right.