Traced: Human DNA's Big Surprise with Nathaniel Jeanson

It's that it's fascinating to me how easily someone in one religion can find the fallacies and biases in another religion. I think that what's fascinating your raise your razor-sharp on your your your criticism of Islam here.

Yeah, and but what I find fascinating Jeff is that you recognize that with other religions.

But you don't do it with your own because I died. Maybe that may be the case. And there's that confirmation bias coming up again.

Opening Critique of Religious Bias

Welcome to apologetics live. We're here to answer your questions and challenges about God and the Bible. Meet your hosts from striving for Eternity ministries Andrew Rappaport. Dr. Anthony Silvestro and pastor Justin Pierce.

We are live apologetics live here to answer your challenging questions. Anything you have about God and the Bible we can answer here because we believe I don't know is a perfectly good answer. So, let me bring in.

Dr. Silvestro. How are you tonight? Good. How are you?

I am time we're gonna be doing a show together. It's a whole show.

Yeah, we've been doing a tad bit of travels between you and I. You you got done with travel and then I started taking off for this month. Speaking of which I I was down in Washington DC and as you know, whenever I travel I have lots of tracks with me.

Was giving out a ton of tracks and I always like it when I get some tracks. Well sort of I Got a nice hand it to me. Okay, why is the world so divided now? I was interested in this although it is it is your typical paper.

You know someone print it off at home and fold it up. But okay, and I always like to see what the groups are so let me answer. Ask a question and and and you just just Dr. Special raise your hand or or shout out when you hear a problem to this question.

Judgment day. Are you drew said it already? That's exactly what I was guessing. Comments. Okay, Joe was witness that. That's exactly the type of tagline they will use.

Yeah, well, that was actually one of my things that I thought but but.

We'll I mean could be KJV only to I mean, they're kind of like that.

So here we go the question judgment day. Are you saying that judgment day is almost here? Here's the answer. No. Actually, the Bible revealed the fact that judgment day has already come. Perhaps you remember hearing about the date may 21st of 2011 proclaimed to the world several years ago.

The Bible indicates the proclamation was correct. Which means that God has been judging the world from that time until now. The Bible also Indicates the prolonged judgment period will continue for several more years very possibly until the year.

2033 Can you predict what group that is from. Wow? Well, I have seen similar things from some Asian Christian cults. Out in California. They there's a number of new breakups every time we go out there to preach with with Ray right for Masters Academy and whatnot.

There's new ones out there and and they all have similar ones to that. So I couldn't even be a guess.

You don't know the date. Okay, we're I'm gonna read one more answer. We'll see if people that are on YouTube can give the can configure this one out. I I immediately knew from that date, but this this got one got me even more.

The question is so after explaining all about this judgment the question that they go asked is this sounds all bad. There is no good. Is there no good news? Okay. So now we're ready for the gospel, right?

We're ready for some good news. Here. Is there good news answer? There is good news for those that were saved prior to the date of May 21 2011. Those people were saved through hearing the Bible and have been left on earth to go through the grievous period of the world's judgment.

These elect people have been left on the earth in order to make the appearance before Christ judgment seat. They they almost go on to say that they're sinless perfectionist. But here's the group now that the actual group that this came from is from a Bible fellowship but the date comes from none other than Harold camping himself and so.

That was the only track I was hoping to you know, I was hoping I went on Saturday. I was out at the The White House and walking around the mall National Mall. I was hoping to see some people doing some open-air because we used to you know, you and I know some folks that were in DC that we used there used to be some evangelist team down there and They used to go out every Saturday and unfortunately, I didn't get to see any of them out there.

Which is a bummer. That was the only gospel tract I got but I did give out many Tracks, so we were glad for that.

It is too bad because most the time I have gospel tracks handed to me. They're all from cults, too.

Yeah, I love when I get gospel tracks from solid people, but you and far between well.

I guess some before we get to our guest, you know I was somebody reached out to me today in Ohio and was asking if we were doing an equip Ohio this year. And I said no, you know, we some of these things have been off our radar.

But I think maybe next year we're gonna try to find some churches and do some of these evangelism conferences again. So Anybody who wants to write a fraternity to come out and do that? Please contact us because we are looking to find the right churches for next year to do that.

Yeah, we might have one in Ohio secured already in northern, Ohio.

Yeah, that's true because the the one that we used to go to in Jersey, we don't have a contact there anymore. Previous pastor passed away and the current pastor has moved on so I.

Don't know what moved on to he did. Wow. I didn't know that. Okay, that's too bad so.

Yeah, so in let's get to the in the news segment before we bring our you know Because I have a funny feeling that this is gonna look this is gonna be something that we're gonna we're gonna work in well with Dr. Jensen because he may he may be able to answer some of this tonight.

I so I think this is very fitting. So in the news section I saw this dr. White had posted this but in Oak Park and River Forest High School administrators have now Voted they voted that they are going to change the grading system based on race.

They're now gonna add a scale For grading so that those people who are a certain races, you know Who are somehow because of the color of their skin, I guess they can't succeed. And so they're going to give benefits to To help people get their better grades.

They said in here that Because they noticed that certain people of certain color skins were less likely to pass the SATs compared to they say here that there's a failure of 77 of black students 49 of Hispanics 27 of Asians and 25 whites and so they're saying that clearly based on that it means That if you're black, you're less likely to be you need you need more help.

I guess you can't do it without some white administrator.

I guess I mean, I guess we shouldn't be surprised by this, right? Yeah, you know I look at every area for both equality and equity. Yeah, and so this becomes the thing that we end up seeing throughout so.

Be expecting this folks. There is a case. I just saw today. I Forget offhand the state, but there's a state suing the Biden administration because they've tied the school lunch program to Teaching transgenderism.

So if they do not teach the transgenderism, the students will not get their free lunch. So when people say hey, there's no such thing as a free lunch. That's right, you you got to teach what they what they want to indoctrinate your children with.

So we'll have to ask our guest as I bring him in We whether there is such a thing as races. I think he may have a different view. I could be wrong, but Dr. Nathaniel Jensen, welcome to apologetics live.

Thank you so much pastor Andrew. So you and I got a chance to to interview when we were when Anthony I were out your way Over at the we were there at the ARC encounter for the truth matters conference.

Now you and I got to do an interview which folks if you haven't listened to Go to listen to the rap report my Andrew rap where it's rap report podcast because there you'll be able to get a Lot more because we that was like an hour in 20 minutes and you were just just touching the surface Of your new book and so let me let me tell the book that That you've just recently wrote let folks know how to get a hold of it.

It's called traced Anthony's holding it up there. Then so it's it's called traced human DNA is big surprise. So the place to get that especially to get the discount. We have a discount code for you that we're that they set up with us only for till July 4th.

But you go to masterbooks .com Masterbooks .com and use the promo code or the coupon code traced 22 traced 22 now the book did sell out I think it's back in I think comes back in print if I if I saw correctly on the 15th, but I believe tomorrow They're gonna start taking pre-orders again.

At least that's what I was told. So We have from from now or at least when they open up this the sales to go get that so masters masterbooks .com. So dr. Jensen let let let Won't give you an opportunity to introduce yourself.

Let folks know a little bit about your background before we dive into your book.

Yes, so I'm with answers in Genesis and speaking to you from Petersburg Kentucky where we have the creation Museum offices are affixed to the creation Museum arc encounters about 45 minutes away further south.

If you come this way flying to the Cincinnati Airport, which is actually located in Kentucky Even though it's called Cincinnati Airport. I'm originally from Wisconsin I married a southern belle from Alabama and now we're living halfway between basically both locations which makes it nice to be able to visit the parents grandparents and And Been with answers in Genesis now may makes it seven years and in full professional creation science since 2009.

So that's about I think we're in August will be I think 13 years total so I've been working on research heavily since then and a lot of what I've done is focused on biology research, I guess just to sketch the Trajectory of my career since then and it may be back up one more moment Just to give you the broader context to grew up in a Christian home a young earth creation home.

And as I guess you could say a science home. My dad was a dentist. My mother was a nurse and Had that background. Plus a homeschooling background where we were able to attend worldview conferences have creationist education learned evolution learned creation along the way.

ICR materials answers in Genesis materials from early on went to a Small Christian high school for my high school work or a small Christian school that was K through 12 small as a small graduating class of 12, I think and Went off to the University of Wisconsin Parkside where I majored in molecular biology and bioinformatics.

Which is just a mouthful of a term meaning the study of life at the smallest levels and also the use of computers. To analyze that so I took a few crack computer science courses that they told me would allow me to speak to the computer scientists.

Which is basically all it has allowed me to do never learned any good programming. Went off to graduate school at Harvard and did my PhD. Basically on adult stem cells, I guess the category that they put it in was cell and developmental biology.

Though the lab itself was more immunology focused. So as medical sciences trying to deal with human disease my interest was cancer at the time and There was a growing connection between adult stem cells in cancer.

The behavior of the two seemed to have a lot of parallels. And so the thought was if we study the normal operation of these cells. Perhaps so I got a tickle my throat from Too much talking today. I think anyway If we understand the behavior of normal cells better perhaps we can understand how cancer makes those normal processes go awry and Then join the Institute for creation research after I got my PhD summer of 2009 joined ICR Institute for creation research.

August of 2009 I was tasked with developing the biology research program. The Motivation that the CEO the then CEO gave me Henry Morris the third. Was that creation scientists had done a lot of geology research and astronomy research?

So biology would logically be the next place to go and it just so happened that there was at the beginning surges of large amounts of publicly available genetic data and so. What I learned from graduate school was to first find the questions so we came up with about eight questions all revolving around the origin of species and focused on that heavily for the first six years or so six seven years at ICR then continued it answers in Genesis and because there's just a massive amount of human genetic data out there.

The research has taken a decidedly Human turn in the last five years or so. I should mention Have the book behind me Tape to the cabinet, but 2017 was when this book came out replacing Darwin the new origin of species that covers a lot of that territory a lot of the ground that I And we researched During that time at ICR and continued on to answers in Genesis.

I wrote this With with a as a primary audience a college student in mind someone I guess I guess in a sense I wrote it for myself. I wrote the book I wish I had when I was a student to be able to hand to my Evolutionary classmates and say you need to read this if you hold evolution, so it covers a lot of that new research.

The title replacing Darwin instead of rebutting Darwin Tells you the main thesis of the book that creation scientists haven't just come up with errors in evolution or problems of evolution. But are now actively surpassing the mainstream community and their ability to make testable predictions and see them fulfilled and then this latest book of course traced human DNA is big surprise focuses on the research the the flurry of it in the past Three to five years that focuses on the human origins and human history question and in fact fulfilled some of the predictions I'd put in print in replacing Darwin.

So there's the There's some of the personal background and career trajectory in a nutshell Though I suppose nutshell is a relative term with a scientist because I tend to be long-winded. I.

Thought only us pastors are long-winded wait.

Also, I heard was dentists. So I'm yeah.

I was gonna pick up on that and and maybe we could finally get a different response. Maybe Anthony Dr. Jensen might might give us a different response. Nathaniel is a dentist a real doctor.

I think I had insulted my dad growing up because I asked a similar question. Because he was there was someone in the chair and he was. You know, he'd come home from work and kind of give us the report on the day.

Often have some entertaining stories depending on who had come through the office that day and Was good at doing impersonations to which of course as kids we found highly entertaining and would beg him to do those sorts of things.

But he in the process of telling one of these stories he was talking about in a sense. Analyzing. I don't know the vital signs or something other than teeth in this patient. And so I was like. We were kind of laughing and I think he was kind of upset by it.

What are you doing you're a dentist and You know realized later in life now it again I don't know if it was vital signs of blood pressure what it is I mean these days when I go into the dental chair. My dad's since retired.

So I'm seeing dentists here in Kentucky as well. They check blood pressure and these sorts of things. So I have a better appreciation. Yeah, if you're gonna Manipulate teeth, but also you deal with loss of blood potentially if you're pulling teeth.

There's just other things you have to pay attention to so I don't. I don't know how my dad would answer the question.

But I think I think he's trying to get around Anthony just he doesn't want to say no. It's not a real they're not a real doctor. I think I think he's agreeing with the atheists on the street. That's okay.

The the the humor behind this Nathaniel is the fact that when we go on the street, I will introduce.

Anthony as dr. Silvestro, I never introduced myself that way.

You're a dentist. So what hang all the time is people will they'll say what kind of doctor are you he goes? Well, I'm a dentist and and time after time people go that's not a real doctor. He'll explain he actually has a doctorate like a real doctor.

I mean you you're a doctor.

I'd like to be self-deprecating that sense though to and say. People come to me with medical question. I can't answer medical questions. I'm sorry. I'm not one of those doctors. Yeah doctor.

Glendon Thomas I was he's a president of Toronto Baptist Seminary. I'm his he's he was getting his doctorate. His daughter comes up to him with a paper cut. Daddy, I cut my finger and he's like, well go to mommy get a band-aid and she's like well You're you're gonna be the doctor.

And his wife walks in it says no, honey. He's a different kind of doctor. He's a paper doctor. He just writes papers for his doctor. So, how would you answer the question Anthony.

You know Dr. Silvestro, yeah, I just tell him that's what my degree is. But of course when an atheist says it right there They're trying to discredit you to which I have a whole series of other responses that I give to them.

Ask him where their PhD in investigative journal journalism is. I ask him all kinds of stuff right to to throw him off. They'll tell the question the dentist about why I'm allowed to talk about evolution and why it didn't happen.

And yet they have like usually a philosophy degree or a sociology degree or no degree at all. They want to talk about why evolution is true. So.

Yeah, I love I love the kids that come up and they want they want to say we are you a PhD? No, I'm not. Do you you know, so you can't talk about you know evolution? Okay, and what's your degree in? Oh high school.

Sorry. That's always something like that. So I'll put my college level biology against your high school biology. So, you know one of the things because I want to get into your book, but I I do have to I do have to say this again even though for those who heard the podcast because I'm just still a little bit humbled by by by this Nathaniel, but I told you that You know I usually interview people on my rap report podcast that I that I know or at least no no personally know something about him and so I didn't know much about you you and I met many years ago when you were in Jackson, New Jersey and So I called Jason Lyle to say hey you guys work together.

What what's Nathaniel like and and his this is what he said about you. I know you're gonna disagree with it, but I gotta let the audience know. This is what he said. Jason Lyle said that you're the smartest man.

He knows. And you're able to take really complex things and make them simple. And I I basically said that that's what we all think of Jason. It's the smartest man. We know who takes really complex things and make them simple.

So for Jason to be looking at you that way. Well, I think drew put it. Well drew said I think I'm gonna need a dictionary for this episode.

I'm gonna tell Jason. He's got it widened his social circles. If I'm the smartest man, he knows he must not know that many people I.

Think he gets out fine. So let us let's get into the book a bit. I know we got some people backstage and want to come in and we're gonna bring them in it. You know probably top of the hour, but real quick.

Could you give an overview of the book? And and I know we spent a lot of time on the rap report so I want to encourage feel to go there and I'll put the links in the show notes, but I Want you to get kind of give the and and labels preface it for folks.

If you get this book trace, just understand that what Nathaniel does he starts off from? Basically, here's really easy to understand to really complex to understand. So this book really is for anybody and You could pick up what he's saying in the first couple chapters if you just need to stop there, that's fine.

Just also know Anthony who held it up and it looks really thick. But there's it's like 300 pages and a hundred pages of pictures.

There's a lot of color pictures in here. So it makes it a whole lot easier to get through because my my general rule is I won't go past about a 250 page book. But this is okay.

Wait a minute, I gotta go check the size of your book. I think I think yours is more than 250. So give us a thumbnail sketch of what what the book is about. Why you ended up writing.

The book is first and foremost a history book that seeks to answer a question that Nagged at me for many years growing up. Coming from the history. I took in high school. So that was I'm not a history major.

I don't think I took any history courses in college last one would have been high school and For perhaps many of you that would be the same thing. The history I learned I'm gonna guess is similar to yours primarily political.

Cultural and religious and focus I say religious because I went to a Christian high school. So when you learn about European history or world history, it's still Renaissance Reformation is one of the major eras or segments of the history that we learn.

What's missing or what what I missed in all of that was the story of the peoples themselves. We can talk about ancient Rome and how Western civilization has their tremendous heritage that it draws from.

That great people and the things we still practice that they gave us or that the Greeks gave us and we can learn about when Rome was founded when Alexander the Great went on his conquest when the Roman civilization collapsed what's missing from all of that is who the peoples themselves came from and Then what happened to them after the civilization disappeared?

So specifically let's use Rome as an example. History books will say typically that 753 or 700s BC is when the city of Rome was founded so we can trace the origin of the Roman civilization to that point and then fall the expansion of the Roman Empire or at least The Roman Kingdom the first few centuries or so doesn't get much beyond.

If you've hundred miles, I think north and south of the city. Then in the 200s BC is when the conquest really gets going in earnest. They eventually conquer what remains of Greece by the hundred years after Christ the AD era they're ruling from Great Britain down to North Africa over to the Middle East and Then in the 400s AD is when the invaders from the east overthrow the Western Roman Empire and it falls city of Rome falls.

So if you're a young earth creationist, you can answer what you can ask the questions this way. If you put the 700s BC for Rome and the flood the restart of human civilization about 2500 BC that's almost 2 ,000 years in which there's no mention of the Roman people.

So who do they come from? What were they doing for two millennia before they finally founded that city and Similarly, then the other end of the Roman story once the Roman civilization falls what happens to the people or to make it personal our modern Italians or Modern Italian Americans like Anthony the genealogical descendants of these ancient people and The reason we never had these answers I've since learned is because you either need Unambiguous unbroken genealogical records taking you back to those Roman people and I'm not just talking about the Emperor's I'm talking about the average person.

Which of course we don't have these records or you need DNA and the key Evidence that we've needed to investigate this has only appeared in the last Few few years. So just to sketch the history of DNA then you said a brief over book.

So here's Identified as the Leading Hypothesis before that time was that it was proteins that encoded our traits where the substance of heredity really was where it really lay and It took a lot of evidence to overturn that and get people thinking in terms of DNA.

Then it took another several decades before the first Complete well completes a relative term the first Semi-complete human DNA sequence was uncovered 2001. Of course big announcement with Francis Collins and Craig Ventner and Bill Clinton saying we've completed the human DNA sequence we completed it with as much as we could with current technology and That the main tool that I look at in this book to investigate human history and to trace the stories that the history of modern people's back to their ancient relatives and the interconnectedness among the various peoples around the globe is the male inherited DNA the Y chromosome this gets passed on from fathers to sons and so this book is.

So so it's first and foremost a history book where we take seven civilizations from each of the major regions of the globe Egypt for Africa Rome for Europe and so on and try to ask and answer the questions Who did these people come from what happened to them after their civilization collapsed and in doing so we end up telling the story of The whole world because as I lay out in the first few chapters with it with the basic principles behind this everyone around the globe is interconnected in more ways than we would ever have anticipated and so I Can tell you that most Western Europeans?

Most Eastern Europeans actually most Europeans in general and people European descent like me Caucasian Americans European Americans Descend in terms of their Y chromosomes not from the ancient Romans.

That would be a minority but from the Recent migrants from Central Asia who came into Europe during the Middle Ages and just so happened to multiply more than the indigenous Europeans did. It's analogous to what is happening right now with the influx of Middle Eastern migrants refugees from the wars in the Middle East and Syria and such.

Who tend to be Muslim. Muslim tend to have larger families? The Resident Europeans who were there before them tend to be secular a religious don't marry don't have kids and there's this Multiplicative discrepancy right now where the Middle Eastern descent families are growing at a much rapid rate.

They're their peoples are growing in size at a much rapper rate. I should say the populations are increasing at a much more rapid rate than the indigenous Europeans. And so well, you know did just as relative term this inflation Europeans and the indigenous Europeans and so even secular demographers are predicting what could be a Significant demographic shift in just a few generations if this keeps up that seems to have already happened and probably has happened multiple times Over in human history, but that's essentially the focus.

It's a history book the story of the people's using DNA and the apologetic relevance of this. It has multiple applications. It's one of the strongest arguments in print for the recent origin of humanity for a number of reasons.

You can see Noah at the base of the tree. Another application is each family any male can trace his ancestry with a Y chromosome test back to specific sons of Noah. You this rewrites you mentioned before I came on you race and ethnicity.

This rewrites how we think about race and ethnicity and there's just all sorts of applications of this research to apologetic questions to basic societal Questions. It's a history book and so much more.

Yeah, and let me bring in mr. Peters.

Welcome. I guess Andrew didn't get the message. You only wanted to watch in the background. Oh Yeah. Did he say that I don't see that I'm just watching you don't have to bring me in. Oh, okay.

Sorry, I didn't get my text messages there.

I'm checking them. I'm sorry to interrupt. I was I was just I was just watching. But please proceed.

That's fine. So let me deal with a challenge. Nathaniel that came up here. Someone in here says, of course, it's a history book because it ain't science. Obviously, he didn't have my English teacher because she would have been very upset with the use of ain't but.

So it does. Are these metric exclusive. How would you respond to the to Ian here?

I think most historians would take offense at that and to be considered unscientific and their analyses would be viewed as a Denigration of their discipline. I would say it's both actually so it's real history stuff.

That's happened and you can see the the genetic echoes of known history and actually just to make a side comment here. Why wouldn't they be? Intermingled there are historical events there was migrations that have happened.

There's rape pillage conquest all throughout human history. How can that not possibly leave some sort of genetic echo in our DNA? And so it's it's nearly impossible to divorce the two of them. And in fact, I think many historians would label their discipline as a scientific one where they're using rigorous methods to try to uncover Using evidence to try to elucidate what exactly happened in the course of human history.

So I understand I think the sentiment he's trying to find a way to Undermine what's going on because it's creationist and that really is a good place to say How this book turns the tables. One of the long-standing arguments against creation science is that like he's trying to imply there creationists don't actually do science if you press the evolutionist on why specifically creationists are the ones not doing science and.

And what I mean is if you look at the published books They've done over the decades you look at current textbooks as to what they say. You look at court decisions in which they've said you can't teach creation science in the public school system here in the United States what they almost in variably go back to is the statement that creation scientists do not make testable predictions and Let's not get lost in the technical terminology.

The concept is pretty straightforward the view with a stereotype of creation scientists is that it's Fundamentally a religious endeavor not historical not scientific nothing. It's pure religion cloaked in the authority of science and Again I could give you quotes from Leading anti creationists who would say that creation scientists fundamentally opposed to science because he would say creation scientists Start with a conclusion that cannot be Questioned that cannot be tested and Then turn around and cobble together facts that support it and exclude facts that don't fundamentally anti-scientific where so Douglas Fatuma has long been a voice an anti creationist voice Evolutionary biologist and a textbook writer leading textbook in evolution Popular textbook in evolution where he discusses some of this and in one of the anti creationist books.

That's what he brings up. Science is built on questioning established dogmas. I'm poking holes in the chinks of the armor. That's almost a literal quote there from him in established ideas where skepticism and inquiry and constant testing and re-evaluating is the name of the game and So creation science is the opposite that because you're not supposed to question things.

This book replacing Darwin has again as its thesis and in its main Argument is Creation scientists in fact do make testable predictions. I put some in print Predictions meaning here is something that we'd expect to find in the future if what I'm saying is true.

Mutation rates the rate at which DNA changes from generation generation. You should be able to predict that I don't think the evolutionists can do that I put predictions in print which I don't know the answer that future experiments should reveal to be true or false and One of those predictions that I put in print in 2017 was that we should be able to see the stamp of the history of civilization in our DNA.

I didn't have the answer in hand at that time. That's what this book essentially represents and it gives a whole bunch of other predictions by which the veracity Or the error in my views can be exposed in the future so there's been multiple points at which my credibility has been put on the line and really the whole creationist enterprise is a process of Finding chinks in the established armor of mainstream science in which 99 of the PhD community Agrees with and here's a small group of creation scientists saying hold on.

Wait a minute. There seems to be some shortcomings and really what what these two books represent is not just here's revolution is gone wrong. It's Look what creation scientists are getting right creation scientists are now taking the lead in major disciplines human origins human history in ways that mainstream communities still hasn't realized or caught up with so.

That's what I take as as the motivation behind that comment and it's helpful because it highlights again probably the one of the longest-standing arguments against creation science one of the one of the last resorts and favorite fallbacks for the evolutionary science community and just to just to clarify that point and you've probably experienced this on the street street when saying you go up to someone and Evolution comes up and well evolution is true.

And then you start Raising questions. Well, how do you explain this? How do you explain the origin of sexual reproduction? How do you explain irreducibly complex structures to use Michael Bay? He's termed from Darwin's black box.

Maybe they'll admit there's some problems. We can't solve the typical tactic then. Once you start getting someone to question what they hold true is they'll push back against you. Well creation science isn't science even if you find holds of which it's not science.

And so even if you can poke holes and everything I've said that doesn't mean what you're saying is valid. You can't turn it around. That's what I mean. It's the last fallback once you get to that stage in the discussion that's that's what's invoked to finally try to shut the discussion down and For many years I'd say or for certain stages the creation evolution debate perhaps that's been true I mean there again there haven't been that many creation scientists out there.

And so the first steps creation scientists typically took. We're defensive ones because small community few resources the first thing you have to say is wait, hold on. I understand this is what the community holds to but but wait and really any scientific idea usually starts with even as Doug Fatuma says you're questioning and looking for chinks in the established armor and.

Then once you've found some Chinks and you get your footing and more people join the cause more Minds enough of a community to start looking for which I view myself really as a second third generation creation scientist.

I'm building on the work that those come before me and so many of these Arguments that have gone on for decades are becoming outdated. Because it deals with an era of creation science that no longer matches reality.