Should Christians Go To War?

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00:01

Non -rockabootus, must stop! I don't want to rock the boat, I want to sink it! Are you going to bark all day, little doggie, or are you going to bite?

00:12

We're being delusional. Delusional? Delusional's okay in your world view. I'm an animal. You don't chastise chickens for being delusional.

00:19

You don't chastise pigs for being delusional. So you calling me delusional using your world view is perfectly okay. It doesn't really hurt.

00:25

She hung up on me! Desperate times call for faithful men and not for careful men.

00:38

The careful men come later and write the biographies of the faithful men, lauding them for their courage.

00:45

Go into all the world and make disciples. Not go into the world and make buddies. Not to make brosives. Don't go into the world and make homies.

00:53

Disciples. I got a bit of a jiggle neck. That's a joke, pastor.

01:00

When we have the real message of truth, we cannot let somebody say they're speaking truth when they're not.

01:07

Take and I'll show you we'll never be the same again.

01:27

You have heard that it was said, an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. But I say to you, do not resist the one who is evil, but if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.

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And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles.

01:50

Give to the one who begs from you and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you. Alright, guys, welcome back to another episode of Apologia Radio.

01:58

This is Apologia Radio. It's the gospel heard around the world. I am Jeff. They call me the Ninja. That's Luke the Bear right there.

02:04

What up? What's up, everybody? Welcome back. Hey, go to ApologiaStudios .com, A -P -O -L -O -G -I -A, studios .com.

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You go there, there are hundreds of radio episodes, podcast episodes. It's been a long, long time.

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I don't even know what year we are in now, Apologia Radio. Oh my goodness, we're going to be, I think we're on 8th in December.

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03:20

Man, this has been a busy week. Lots of stuff is going on. Goodness gracious. Just this week. Well, I mean, we're getting close to the election, so it's getting crazier and crazier.

03:29

Joe Biden is saying weirder and weirder things. More and more incoherent by the day.

03:35

If you just spend the time on YouTube, just go check out some videos of the current, this week gaffes of Joe Biden, and it's something else.

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I want to say this, and I truly mean this. Luke's heard me say this here at the studio a number of times probably.

03:49

I really do believe that his family has an obligation to help him, to say something.

03:57

No, I genuinely mean that. I know that everyone thinks it's funny, and sometimes it is funny.

04:02

But he's an elderly man who is clearly not doing well mentally.

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I mean, any one of us can be there. I mean, it can happen to any one of us. It's not necessarily a laughing matter. Obviously, some of the things he says are amusing.

04:16

But you would think that his grandchildren, his wife, his family would say, you know, this is not good.

04:22

Like, you're not fit for this. You're declining day by day. I mean, there's many people who have talked about having elderly parents or grandparents that these are the signs of the breakdown.

04:35

They're like, that's exactly what happened to my grandmother or my mother. And I think everyone can see it. It's amazing to see that he's actually the nominee for the

04:45

Democratic Party. But, hey, it's interesting times. Weekend at Biden's.

04:50

Weekend at Biden's. Someone's propping him up. That's right. So whatever happens, if he won the election, it will not be

04:56

Biden as the president. We can all be assured of that. Welcome to everybody who's watching right now live in the feed.

05:03

Thank you guys so much for joining us. Encourage you guys to check out the drops over the last couple of days. If you didn't know, good stuff.

05:10

If you didn't know, we have a number of podcasts and shows here at Apologia Studios, productions of Apologia Studios.

05:16

We've got Sheologians with Summer and Joy, a great, great show. We've got Cultish. We've got Provoked with Pastor Zach and Desi.

05:23

Congratulations, by the way, to Desi for, how do you say it, having that child?

05:32

Knox. How would one say that? How would one say this? Knox is here and he's beautiful, so praise God. Zach Zachary.

05:37

That's right, Zach. Knox Zachary. And a big shout out to Jessica Morgan, Pastor Zach's wife.

05:44

Little Titus Jeremiah. Little Titus. Two weeks ago, I think. Two weeks ago, that's right. Pastor Zach, congratulations on that beautiful little boy.

05:52

We're just having kids, having children at Apologia. Left and right. That's right. Praise God. We're having them.

05:58

We're adopting them. They're all over the place. We like them. Speaking of children, got to speak at a

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Trump rally up north here in Arizona. Luke and I went up north with Carmen and we got some content.

06:13

Got to speak two days at this Trump rally to preach the gospel and talk about ending the murder of the pre -born.

06:23

And it was a real blessing to do that. I did see, it was interesting. I might as well mention this. When we posted it, obviously it's what happened.

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It was a Trump rally thing. Got to preach the gospel there. It was weird because some people jumped on and were like,

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I can't believe that you did this. I can't believe that you spoke at this rally. And I thought to myself,

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I didn't expect that. If you watch the limited things that I said,

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I talked about abortion as murder, ending the sacrifice of children, and then I preached the gospel and called everyone to repent.

06:56

You didn't even talk about Trump, did you? Didn't even talk about Trump. No, not a word. And somebody was like, I wouldn't have done it anyways.

07:01

I was like, well then we're not on the same page. Where would you have shared the gospel? Well, it was interesting because I was like, if I was invited to a

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Joe Biden rally to preach the gospel, I would seize upon that opportunity in a heartbeat.

07:16

I mean, isn't that what we do? You should, yeah. I think some of these people would have probably been with Axe at Mars Hill at the

07:22

Areopagus and were like, you know what? There's a lot of dang pagans here, and I don't think you should be associating yourself with this.

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I mean, you take the opportunity. You get put up there, and you preach the gospel. You preach it at your last, because it may be.

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That's exactly right. So anyway, that clip is up right behind this video.

07:41

So if you're seeing this on YouTube and our channel, it's right behind this one. Pastor Preaches the Gospel at a

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Trump rally. Hope it's a blessing to you guys. I think we should all be involved in that sort of a thing. All right.

07:52

So hey, so much is happening. I know that I'm talking fast. I'm trying to get through to our guest. Very special guest today.

07:58

He is truly one of our great friends. And it truly means this. One of the heroes of the faith.

08:05

I have never seen Dr. James White get as excited about a book as we did when

08:14

Dr. White… Unless it's like some weird edition of the Greek… 1550 Stephanos or something.

08:20

That's the only other time. Yeah, he does like to show off his Bibles. Dr. White does like to show off the Bibles. Because he has nice Bibles.

08:26

He does. Although you almost ruined his Bibles with your sweaty arms. It was really hot that day.

08:33

At church, Luke leaned on his nice Bibles with his sweaty arms. They were wet. That's one thing you don't do to Dr. James White's Bibles is sweat on them.

08:40

He promptly moved them to the side. Yeah. He'd just say, I only have one request. Just please don't sweat on my Bibles. That's just the one rule.

08:47

At any rate, Dr. James White, pastor and apology at church, read Dr. Boot's book,

08:52

Mission of God. And we didn't write the book. But we consider it…

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It's like he wrote it for us. Yeah, it's like he wrote it for Apology at Church. So we make sure everyone knows that this is your book you have to read.

09:07

This is what we believe and affirm. Anyways, Dr. James White loved the book. He bought a crate.

09:13

He bought a crate of Mission of God. So if that says anything to you about how good the book is, take it for what it's worth.

09:20

Go buy Mission of God by Dr. Joseph Boot. Dr. Boot's one of our very favorites. I truly believe he is one of the greatest gifts to our generation, and Luke knows that I truly mean that.

09:30

He is brilliant. He has an incredible mind. He is extraordinarily faithful to all the important things one needs to be faithful to, doctrinally speaking.

09:44

And so I can't recommend it enough. We have him on with us today. We're going to talk about, Should Christians Go to War?

09:51

And that's a punchy title. So at least you get an idea of what are we talking about today. Should Christians Go to War?

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We're really asking the deeper question of, Ought Christians Go to War? Ought people go to war?

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Or is Christian pacifism the preferred methodology, mindset, ideology?

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Should we believe in pacifism in a fallen world? Because there are lots of Jesus -loving believers that believe in a form of Christian pacifism, and there's a number of forms of it.

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Before I bring Joe on, I want to talk about that verse. No, I'll bring

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Joe on to talk about that verse. That's what we'll do. I was just going to say, I'm actually giddy a little bit to hear what Joe has to say, because this is one discussion

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I haven't heard him tackle yet. Let's do it. So, Dr. Boot, welcome to Apologia Radio once again.

10:44

Thanks, guys. It's great to be back. You're always too kind to me, but I very much appreciate it.

10:50

It's good to be back on my favorite show, live from the frozen north, where, well, it's an outpost of the

10:56

British Empire. The Queen's still head of state. We're just clinging on. Yes, yes, for now. For now, for sure.

11:03

Hey, Dr. Boot, could you tell everyone as we get started here, where can they go to get more from you before we even get going?

11:10

Sure. Thanks, Jeff. EzraInstitute .ca is our website, so people can learn about our ministries and see some of our resources, look at our study programs and explore what the

11:22

Institute is all about there. EzraInstitute .ca. Now, we've had the privilege of going up to visit you and even do some work with you in Canada.

11:33

I know COVID's probably killed everything this year. It's done it for us as well. Do you have anything anybody can start looking at right now that they can maybe get connected to to join you in Canada over maybe the next year?

11:44

Sure. So, actually, because we're a farm here as well, Jeff, we actually managed to exploit a bit of a loophole because farming is an essential service, so we were able to transform one of our summer programs into a faith and farming internship where we actually taught a creational worldview, but the students did a lot of work on the farm for us.

12:08

So that was good. We were able to go, you know, really helped us just come up with a creative idea to work around some of that.

12:15

But, yes, if people visit our website, they'll notice that this fall, in October, we have a worldview in the marketplace program for aspiring entrepreneurs, young business people, business leaders wanting to explore the relationship of biblical worldview and the economics and the marketplace.

12:35

Then in November, we have a church and culture colloquium for pastors, and we'd love to see some of our

12:41

American friends up for that. That's on the website, too. And then next year, we are excited about running our worldview leadership camps for the young adults, for teens, and also our premium program, our

12:55

Runner Academy, H .F. and Runner International Academy for Cultural Leadership in July.

13:00

That's a two -week intensive study program here on the Niagara Peninsula. And it is a gorgeous, gorgeous, gorgeous location.

13:10

Some of the best views you'll ever see in your life. We always enjoy going up there and highly encourage you guys to get connected to the

13:17

Runner Academy. It'll be well, well, well worth your time and your life and your investment. So make sure you guys do that.

13:23

Let's get right into it, Dr. Boots. So I started the show off today quoting from the

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Sermon on the Mount, the most famous sermon in the history of the world. And so most people are familiar with at least parts of the

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Sermon on the Mount. But the place that I wanted to focus on today, and the whole show is not going to be about this particular verse, but we're going to at least address it and respond to it, was

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Matthew 5, verse 38. And it's where Jesus says, You have heard that it was said, An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.

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But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.

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It's interesting because oftentimes when we read our Bibles and we'll see a quotation being made, we don't often go back to the quotation.

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We just assume maybe the interpretation of the author in the New Testament. They're giving you the inspired interpretation of the text.

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So you just take it for granted and say, Well, that's what that text means. Wherever it's from, this is the inspired interpretation.

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So I accept it. But I think we often don't get in the habit of going back and saying, What was that context?

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What was the larger story? What does it mean? And in this particular text, it's often used by people who are pacifists or maybe just misunderstand the comprehensive nature of the

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Christian worldview. They'll say things like, Well, Christians shouldn't go to war because those are our neighbors.

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And they'll say, Bible says that if somebody slaps you on your right cheek, turn to him the other.

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So no Christian should be involved in any kind of warfare really under any circumstance because we're part of the kingdom of the

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Messiah and the kingdom of the Messiah doesn't accept warfare.

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And so that's what people will often say. So, Dr. Booth, when you hear people quote that verse related to some may say self -defense or just war theory, what's your first thoughts in response to that?

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Well, I think first of all, it's really important to remember the first principle of scriptural interpretation is to interpret the

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Bible with the Bible. So we need to consider the whole counsel of God. I think like any text, depending on the sort of philosophical framework we bring to it, you can manipulate

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Jesus to mean many things if you're looking at things outside of the whole counsel of God, outside of the broad scriptural world and life view.

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So part of the problem with misinterpretations of this passage is to do with people taking a text in isolation and not dealing with it in terms of the whole teaching of Jesus and of course the whole teaching of scripture itself and what the

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Christian world and life view has to say about the meaning of justice and so on. So that's the first thing. I think the second thing

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I think of, Jeff, is the fact that what Jesus is doing in the Sermon on the Mount, let's remember, is interpreting the law of God.

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He's not overturning the law of God because he says so himself. He's not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it, to put it literally, to put it into force.

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So what's not going on here when he says, you have heard that it was said that was wrong.

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Now I've got a new idea for you. No, Jesus is refuting faulty interpretations of the law by some of the

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Jewish schools of the scribes and the Pharisees at the time and one of the things that they were teaching was personal vengeance, an eye for an eye.

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You can take the law into your own hands and you can avenge yourself on the wrongdoer and so Jesus is taking the fullness of the law as the greater

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Moses, as the living Torah, he goes up onto the mountain to expound the significance of God's law.

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So as a background, it's important to remember that he's not refuting Moses, he's expounding his own word through Moses and giving it the fullness of its intended interpretation and that has to be borne in mind because that brings us into a recognition of the whole counsel of God as we explore the meaning of this text.

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Absolutely, very, very good explanation and I think that's important to note as well as when we read the

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Sermon on the Mount, oftentimes people will read the Sermon on the Mount in a way that literally contradicts

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Jesus' own statement just before they misinterpret. What I mean by that is in Matthew 5 .17

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-19, the Lord Jesus actually says in the Greek, it's me namasete, it means do not even begin to think.

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So Jesus, I like to stress this a lot, he doesn't say stop thinking to his hearers as though the thought is there, the seed is there, and he says now stop doing that.

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He actually tells them don't even begin. Don't let it into your mind, don't start thinking, don't even begin to entertain the thought that I've come to destroy the law or the prophets.

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I have not come to destroy them but to fulfill them. And he actually says that in his kingdom, if anyone teaches anyone to disobey even the least of these commandments, what commandments, of the law of God, he says then he'll be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

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So it's interesting that we would actually go to the Sermon on the Mount and believe that Jesus is actually disregarding the very laws.

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He says, I would never do so. And that's an important thing. Also note that the

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New Testament demonstrates kind of a common formula that the Lord Jesus and the apostles will use when they're speaking about the

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Old Testament. They'll say, what does the scripture say? They'll say things like God says.

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And so they'll refer to the Old Testament in terms of what does the scripture say, that kind of formulation. But in this particular text, in Matthew 5, in the

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Sermon on the Mount, Jesus will say, you've heard that it was said. You've heard that it was said. Well, that's odd in terms of the normal kind of formulation of how they would refer to the

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Torah, the text of God's word. It's not God said such and such, but I'm saying, as though Jesus is contradicting the word of God.

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No, he says, you've heard that it was said. He's correcting their misapplications and misinterpretations of the days, correcting their abuse of scripture.

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And one thing I want to point out about this is very, very important, is in Matthew 5, where it says eye for eye, tooth for tooth, you better hope, we had better hope that Jesus upholds that.

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And some might say, what do you mean by that? Well, that's actually from God's law, where God actually tells you what the just standard ought to be in terms of repayment for a crime.

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So in other words, justice and equal scales. And so in the particular passage that Jesus is quoting from there, he's actually quoting from Exodus chapter 21.

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Now everyone knows Exodus chapter 20. What's in Exodus chapter 20?

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That's the 10 commandments. And so what do you have in the 10 commandments? You have the commandment against, you shall not kill.

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Now the word kill there, the word is ratzak, and the semantic domain of the word ratzak is murder.

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And so the prohibition there is the command against murder. You shall not murder.

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How do you know that killing is still allowed in certain circumstances? Well, it's one chapter later.

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Do you think that Moses forgot what he was saying between chapter 20 and 21? He says, you shall not kill, but then in chapter 21, he tells you what to do if somebody does take life, and he says, basically, you kill them back.

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Now that's, of course, through the state. It's eye for eye, tooth for tooth. When I said that you better hope that that still applies, eye for eye, tooth for tooth is another way of saying equal justice.

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In other words, victim's rights equal justice. Eye for eye, tooth for tooth protects against abuses of justice in terms of injustice.

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Eye for eye, tooth for tooth says it must be equal. So when someone says, oh, that's all disregarded now,

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I go, oh my goodness, please no. Please tell me that's not disregarded because eye for eye, tooth for tooth means equal justice.

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But as Dr. Boot said, Jesus is correcting how they would apply it, and what

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Matthew 5 is really dealing with is actually personal insult.

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Someone slapping you on the right cheek, in a right -handed culture, it takes a particular kind of technique to do so, and what is it?

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To hit somebody with your right hand on the right cheek is a what? Is a backhanded slap. So that's the insult, right?

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The backhanded slap. I always think of like a touché, like, you know, like a...

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So the truth is, that's actually right in terms of how we're to handle things. Personal insult, personal thing like that, it's you turn the other cheek.

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Who cares? Like you don't attack and fight back over something like that. So if someone shanks you on the right side, you're supposed to say shank you very much and give them your left?

22:44

Very good. But I mean, seriously, like if that's the logic we're using...

22:49

Right. No, that's exactly right. Is that where we extend it to? That's an exposure. I don't think anybody would do that. No one really believes that. And so in terms of Christian passivism,

22:57

I'm glad we got a chance to address that. I think it's just a short and sweet, hopefully easy way to understand the text is not teaching a universal in terms of even the state and their ordained role by God to punish evildoers, to wield the sword of justice, and to organize for national defense.

23:17

Okay, so Dr. Boot, when we start this discussion, we're going to try to play some clips here today from Dr.

23:23

Greg Bonson on a radio show that he did talking about just war theory. When we enter into this discussion, what are your first thoughts?

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What do you want people to understand in terms of a consistent, comprehensive, biblical perspective about just war theory or whether Christians should ever go to war?

23:42

What do you want to communicate? Well, I think that in its essence, when we think about warfare, war is the extension, really, of the right of self -defense, which is given to us in Scripture.

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And in particular, it's the extension of the power of the sword that God himself gives to the state as the avenger of wrongdoing, as the avenger of evil in Romans 13.

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And the state's obligation to defend its citizens. So this is a matter of God's order, really, and the restoration of justice.

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You've just dealt with it when you picked up on what Jesus is really talking about there, tribution or retribution as the essence of the juridical aspect of our lives is retribution.

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And there's a difference between the personal and the public. So Jesus is, as you correctly pointed out, dealing with personal insults and how we respond.

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Don't forget, when Jesus was physically struck on the face at his own trial, he didn't just stand there and take it and say, hit me again,

24:54

Ike. In fact, he actually challenged the injustice of the action in front of the

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Sanhedrin. And actually, exactly the same thing happens to the Apostle Paul. And he, too, directly challenges the injustice of the action before the court.

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So there's a hyperbolic language that's being employed there by Jesus. He also tells us to, you know, poke out our eye or cut off our hand if it's causing us to sin.

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Obviously, we don't take that in the absolutely literal sense. So this whole issue of just war is that issue of justice.

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When we think about war, how do we bring justice and righteousness, it's the same word in the

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Greek, justice and righteousness, to the world? How do we bring God's shalom, actually, to the world?

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Because when justice and righteousness reign, that's where God's peace reigns.

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The scripture says, blessed are the peacemakers, not necessarily the peacekeepers.

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And there are plenty of people who want to keep the peace with a pacifistic outlook. But sometimes we have to do the things that make for peace, which is the restoration of God's order and God's justice.

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And sometimes that means the use of violence in a certain context of just war.

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Yes. And let's lay down, because it probably needs to be said, I mean, our assumption, this is our assumption the whole way through this, and I want to make sure that people understand if they're just getting to know us and they're hearing this for the first time, we believe that peace first has to happen with God.

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In order for there to be peace in the world, we have to have peace with God. That's the ultimate place of peace.

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The Prince of Peace, through faith in Him, repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, is where we first have peace with God through reconciliation with Him, only through the peace that's brought through the blood of the cross and what

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Christ has accomplished. But then peace really begins to spread out of that relationship, that vertical relationship, out horizontally into the world through Christian community and all of that that comes from that.

27:01

However, this is really important. Joe, you actually said something I think is key here because you pointed to an issue that has to do with justice and injustice.

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When people take a pacifistic perspective, I think there's something being neglected.

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It's sort of this thing hanging in the background. It's almost like, don't look at the man behind the curtain sort of a thing.

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That's how I see this. What I mean by that is this, is that there's this desire to love neighbor and to protect neighbor.

27:34

And so we say, well, then therefore we should never engage in even just warfare because we want to love our neighbors, love our enemies.

27:43

And I go, amen, I'm in. I want to join that club. Is there a monthly subscription?

27:50

Because I'll pay it. But the man behind the curtain is actually the thing being forgotten there in terms of love for neighbor.

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And that is this. Sometimes in a fallen world, there are tyrants and there are despots.

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There are evil people in the world who do wicked and malicious, evil, evil things. And we don't have to go far back in history to find these people.

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We can talk about Pol Pot, we can talk about Stalin, we can talk about Hitler and Mao, all the rest to say, okay, we've got like, you know, over a hundred million people slaughtered by these regimes.

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These are evil, wicked people with, by the way, many times an atheistic worldview. And what we're neglecting when we say pacifism, because we want to love our neighbors, is all the neighbors who are murdered and destroyed by these wicked regimes.

28:36

And so what Dr. Boot is referencing is the issue of justice and injustice and peacemaking would be, we'd be remiss to forget about the fact that there's a person behind that curtain.

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And that is that there are victims being victimized by perpetrators and evil regimes.

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And what about them? It sort of like reminds me of the COVID situation. And Joe, you probably experienced this a ton, probably more in Canada than we did here, although we did get in a lot here.

29:04

People would say, you need to stay home, your business needs to fold, you need to lose everything, and it's because you need to love your neighbors.

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And what I say to that is, okay, that's a great sentiment. Loving my neighbors is very important, but you're forgetting about a larger mass of neighbors who are being destroyed because of all of this.

29:22

So I'd like to love neighbors, plural. And I think that applies to the issue of just warfare, is love the enemy, yes, but also love the victim.

29:31

And so it's a balancing act of justice. And that's precisely why the point you made earlier about the meaning of Jesus' teaching, that he's not overturning the principle of tribution or retribution to give to somebody their due, and this distinction between the public and the private.

29:49

Jesus is not saying that the magistrate or the king or the ruler or the state does not have an obligation to address tyranny, to address evil, to address oppression.

29:59

I mean, if you push the logic of the pacifistic argument, you would see the collapse of the police, of the courts, of a justice system.

30:08

This is precisely why many of the pacifists going as far back as the Anabaptists and some of the early brethren and even beyond, their posture was you couldn't serve as a magistrate.

30:20

You couldn't serve as a soldier. These things were thought of as fundamentally wrong. Well, the logic of that position is that really police and courts and justice as a whole to restrain evil, tyrants and oppression is somehow wrong.

30:36

And of course, that's a completely unacceptable position from the perspective of a Christian world and life view.

30:42

Exactly. I'm going to respond to one of the live comments. I think it's very, very important to show how sometimes

30:47

Christians, we have a difficulty, and this goes for all of us. All of us are fallible. We're not inspired, and so we make mistakes and we oftentimes can not think about the bigger picture and think about what

30:57

God's Word says in multiple places or in a comprehensive way. Somebody actually said in the comments here, never go to war.

31:06

Vengeance belongs to the Lord. Now, the first thing I want to say to that proof texting is that text is true.

31:13

Vengeance is mine, says the Lord, right? So we're all in agreement as Christians that vengeance belongs to God.

31:20

We're not supposed to engage in that sort of a thing. But can I point something out that gets missed here?

31:26

And that's Romans 13. Here's what Romans 13 says. Let every person be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except from God.

31:34

And those that exist have been instituted by God. Who are we talking about? We're talking about civil government. Therefore, whoever resists the authorities resists what

31:41

God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct but to bad.

31:47

Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good and you will receive his approval, for he is

31:54

God's deacon, God's servant for your good.

32:00

But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain, for he is a servant of God, an avenger who carries out

32:08

God's wrath on the wrongdoer. What does the inspired apostle say in terms of the status and responsibilities of the civil government is that it's

32:19

God's deacon to punish the evildoer and he is God's avenger.

32:24

He's Captain America. Right, yeah, exactly. So when someone says, you know, don't ever go to war, let vengeance is mine, says the

32:31

Lord, I'm going to go amen to that, but don't forget that God says that the instrument he uses to avenge and to bring his vengeance is civil government.

32:42

The government's role is to actually do that. If I can give an illustration, Jeff, that would maybe help the listeners with that too.

32:51

Salvation belongs to the Lord as well. That doesn't mean you don't preach. Right, so, yes, vengeance is mine, says the

32:59

Lord, it's mine to repay because he has appointed the means by which he takes vengeance upon evil in the same way that salvation is from the

33:09

Lord completely, salvation is of the Lord, but he uses means to bring people to the

33:14

Lord. So the idea that we can just excuse ourselves of the responsibility for advancing justice and peace by saying, well, vengeance is the

33:22

Lord's is really a fatalistic attitude as though we can just throw up our hands and do nothing in the face of evil.

33:30

I was just going to say, I want to go back to something you said a few minutes ago. I love the distinction you made,

33:35

Joe, between peacekeepers and peacemakers. You know, peacekeepers is the

33:41

UN, right? Peacemakers are, it's a great commission, right?

33:47

It's to go into all the world, make disciples, baptize, and teach them all that I've commanded.

33:52

That's what the peacemakers do. And then the exact opposite, the peace destroyers would be the

33:58

Black Lives Matter. Yeah. Well, Jesus himself said, in terms of that same thought, it's clear that Jesus was not interested in some kind of empty peacekeeping.

34:09

He said, I have not come to bring peace, but a sword, a sword of division. And he meant there that the preaching of the kingdom of God divides people and exposes the antithesis that's there in terms of apostasy, the children of God, and the children of disobedience.

34:26

So our task is not simply to appease and keep the peace.

34:31

It's to make for peace, which requires advancing the significance of the gospel.

34:38

And of course, the Apostle Paul, in fact, all of Scripture, doesn't hesitate to use a martial language or a militaristic language to describe that, that we are soldiers of the

34:51

Lord Jesus Christ. We are seeking to serve him. We're extending his kingdom, his rule, and his reign.

34:58

So if there was something fundamentally wrong or evil about being a soldier, the

35:05

Bible wouldn't pick up that metaphor. Jesus in the book of Revelation is mounted on a war horse. And the

35:10

Bible says that God is a man of war. It doesn't say anywhere that God is a harlot. It does say he's a man of war.

35:18

So I don't think the Bible would use metaphors of what is fundamentally sinful to describe

35:23

God. I think we're done today. No? Okay. Very good.

35:28

That's important. And, you know, one of the things that I brought up last week, Dr. Boot, on the show, was to try to key in on that point right there, those principles that, you know, when

35:39

Scripture talks about war and a just war, there are principles involved in terms of whether or not we know it's a just war, should we be engaged in this sort of a thing.

35:49

But there's also, I mean, in the Psalms, I mentioned Psalm 144. One, blessed be the

35:54

Lord my rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle. I mean, there's a worship song that God wrote.

36:03

And it starts with blessing God for training our hands for war, our fingers for battle.

36:10

And the context of that, now, there are principles, spiritual principles, that can be derived from that, of course.

36:19

But let's try to think about what the original context was. The original context was warfare, actual combat.

36:27

And so there's a big praise to God for martial arts training. Isn't that interesting? Combat training.

36:34

Praise God for giving me this. And to employ it, of course, for the purposes of justice and peace and righteousness.

36:43

Because here's the deal. Like I said last week, Luke, I said, you know, the ideal of pacifism, this is something Bonson said as well, the ideal of pacifism is wonderful.

36:51

Wouldn't it be great? It's right. Like, we want peace. We don't want war. We don't want evil. We don't want conflict.

36:57

So the ideal is great. The only problem is, it forgets where it's at.

37:03

This world has fallen. There's still sin present. The kingdom of Jesus is here, of course. He's on his throne.

37:09

He's spreading his gospel in his kingdom. Of course, it's going to fill the earth. We believe in the total victory of the Messiah in history before the resurrection of the just and the unjust.

37:18

So amen to all that. But we still live in a fallen world. We still have the Saddam Husseins.

37:25

We still have the terrorist regimes. We still have the, gosh,

37:31

I can't even think. North Korea. Kim Jong Un or Il. Which one came? I can't remember.

37:36

Un or Il is current. I forget. Anyway, you know what I'm talking about. The guy who rules over North Korea as a god.

37:43

And if you're a Christian in North Korea, you'll be killed for being a Christian. Justin Trudeau. Can I say that? Justin Trudeau is a wicked leader.

37:50

Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. Are you still with us, Joe? They didn't cut you off yet. Yeah, that's right. Is there anybody monitoring these lines right now in Canada?

37:59

The line is not laid down with the lamb yet. They're still eating. We still have trouble in this world and evil people who need to be put into check.

38:10

Hey, look. I was just listening this morning, Joe. It just came up in my feed.

38:15

It just dawned on me. It was an old link that I shared, and I was like, ooh, that sounds so scary.

38:24

And it was a Phoenix home that was broken into near my house, actually. You're like, it doesn't sound unusual.

38:31

It doesn't surprise me. I don't live in the best of areas. It's a Phoenix home broken into, and it was the 911 dispatch call where you got to hear the woman as the people were breaking in.

38:42

You can hear the whole thing. She's like, they're at my door. They're about to break in. The guy breaks in, and she ends up shooting him.

38:48

You hear the entire scuffle. He jumps on her. He starts beating her, and she's able to get her gun, and she shoots the guy.

38:55

You hear the entire scenario. It is so terrifying. And you think about a situation like that.

39:02

You're like, look, listen. The ideal of pacifism is great, but we still have people breaking into homes to beat and rape women.

39:12

And we have to care enough about the victims. See, here's the deal. I say there's always nuance.

39:18

Love your enemies. Love your neighbors. Amen, yes. But a man breaks into a house and tries to beat, terrorize, and rape a woman.

39:26

In a situation like that, yeah, I want him to know the gospel. I want him to know Jesus, but I also really want her to not be raped and survive.

39:34

And I believe with all my heart that it is a moral obligation to say that if I were there, that I kill that man and protect that woman.

39:44

And if I have anything to do with it, I want to make sure that she has a weapon to defend herself.

39:50

The victim has rights. God's law is huge on victims' rights.

39:57

And it's one of the ways we love our neighbors by upholding their rights as victims. And my wife has the right to defend herself, which is why we have lots of guns.

40:08

And sorry, Joe, I'm not sure if that makes you sad to hear us talking like this. Not at all. Because you're in Canada.

40:15

I'm all for the Second Amendment. I wish we had one here. No, I know. I know you are. I'm saying you probably feel jealous.

40:21

More like making you covet is what I was saying. Well, I think

40:27

Christians can't think in categories. Sorry, Joe, I didn't mean to cut you off. I'll let you go. They can't think in categories. We talked about this before.

40:34

Even when it comes to death penalties, it's the same discussion. It's like, well, no, they need

40:39

Jesus. It's like, yeah, they do, but they still committed a crime and they still should be held responsible for that crime.

40:45

Categories. Here's the thing. For the pacifist argument, when the question of justice and nonviolence come into conflict, they choose nonviolence and they let justice go to the side.

41:03

That's the essence of the argument. If you're confronted with a situation where somebody is being assaulted or raped or even in your own family and you cannot deal with the situation through nonviolence, you choose nonviolence.

41:16

And that is where I think the pacifist argument runs into terrible problems. And we can also look at it this way.

41:23

You see, when you restrain an evildoer using force, an all -necessary force, you also prevent them from doing something that will bring them into a severer judgment from God.

41:35

You hinder an evil person from carrying out their evil wishes. You've just prevented them from doing something for which they would be held into a deeper degree of accountability before God.

41:48

So you can love your neighbor by stopping him from committing evil and you love the potential victim by serving them.

41:57

And look, we see this. We see this throughout scripture. You look at God's choices servants.

42:03

You look at the people that we're told to emulate. Abraham, for example. Abraham led his own armed servants on a military raid to recover his nephew

42:12

Lot. And you see, of course, David, Jeff, you've already talked about King David and the

42:20

Psalms that he composed praising God for giving him strength for the battle. And you fast forward into the

42:27

Newer Testament. You see Jesus making a whip and driving out the thieves out of the temple court.

42:36

And not one time do you see either John the Baptist or the Lord Jesus or any of the apostles telling

42:43

Roman centurions that a necessary part of their coming to faith and obedience is that they leave the military.

42:51

They're told to do other things, not to rob, not to extort people. But they're never told to leave the military.

42:58

Even Peter's encounter at the household of Cornelius. There is no indication that Cornelius is told, well, it's an immoral occupation you're in.

43:06

You need to set aside your commission in the army. Instead, you see

43:11

Jesus actually commending a centurion for his great faith. And it was a centurion at the cross, of course, who looked up and said, surely this man was the son of God.

43:25

So I think when you look at the servants of God in scripture, we cannot ever reach the pacifistic conclusion that when confronted with a choice between nonviolence and justice, that we choose nonviolence.

43:39

God himself in the cross, because of his grace, pours out his righteous wrath and judgment on his son at the cross so that retribution upon us, actually, could be carried out vicariously through the penal substitutionary atonement.

43:59

And that's one of the reasons why you often find that within the Anabaptist tradition, some of the

44:04

Anabaptist tradition, within some of the Brethren tradition, you have a hostility to penal substitution, to a substitutionary atonement.

44:13

And you have the focus on the exemplary model of the atonement doctrine, where Jesus is just, he's a victim and he's an example to us to suffer.

44:23

But there's no sense of Christ bearing the penalty, the death penalty for us in our stead.

44:32

And that's a problem, because as far back as you go right to Genesis 9, when Noah emerges from the ark there and God does not want the world to descend into the state of wickedness that it had before.

44:45

God says to Noah, this is pre -Moses, don't forget, if a man sheds man's blood, by man his blood shall be shed.

44:52

And we see that theme without the shedding of blood, there's no remission of sins. We see this theme throughout scripture.

44:58

This is the way in which God brings retribution, tribution and the restoration of his justice and his order.

45:05

So the notion that we should choose nonviolence over the preservation of God's justice and order, I think is thoroughly anti -biblical and can even have wicked and evil consequences.

45:16

Very, very good. Thank you, Dr. Boot. Yeah, it's interesting too, and of course in the live feed here, just taking a look at the comments as Dr.

45:22

Boot is talking, somebody quoted Exodus 20, verse 13, and said, don't kill, period.

45:28

Exodus 20, 13, don't kill, period. I guess they weren't listening earlier. Well, maybe they just popped into the feed, but I would just suggest once again that we be very cautious with our proof text and we actually read our

45:39

Bibles, maybe even a few verses after the verse we're quoting. For example, in Exodus 20, verse 13, it says, you shall not kill.

45:46

And I pointed out earlier that razzak is the word there and the semantic domain of the word there of kill is murder.

45:53

And so do not kill. And if you say, no, no, no, it's do not kill, period. Ever, ever, ever. I would say, well, let's talk about what

46:00

Moses says a few verses later. It's right after it, Exodus 21. Here's what it says after he says, you should not kill.

46:07

He says, whoever strikes a man so that he dies shall be put to death. Wait, I thought we're not supposed to kill.

46:16

Whoever strikes his father or his mother shall be put to death. I thought we're not supposed to kill. Whoever steals a man and sells him and anyone found in possession of him shall be put to death.

46:26

I thought we weren't supposed to kill. Or we need to be Christians who are concerned with context and we're concerned with faithfully handling

46:36

God's word. And we don't neglect what Moses writes literally one chapter later after you should not kill.

46:44

So it's not, you should not kill, period. Forget the rest of the context of the Bible. And I will point out also in terms of the death penalty, because I know this is probably in someone's mind in terms of new covenant, old covenant, death penalty,

46:56

I would say God is a God of justice. He doesn't change. He's still concerned with justice for victims. So if God lays down, this is justice for victims.

47:04

There's a death penalty, say, for man stealing and enslaving. I would say, of course, God still cares about justice in a new covenant.

47:11

He still cares about justice in this world. And so he's still concerned with that. That applies today. God's character is unchanging.

47:18

But I'll also point to a simple thing in Acts 25. The Apostle Paul, after the cross, after the resurrection, after the ascension of Jesus, new covenant is in effect.

47:29

The Apostle Paul, at his trial, he actually says in Acts 25, if I've done anything worthy of death, then

47:37

I don't object to dying. So he actually affirms the principle in terms of the death penalty if something is worthy of it.

47:45

And he actually says as an inspired apostle, after Jesus dies and rises again, gospel's in full effect, y 'all, he says, if I've done anything worthy of death,

47:53

I don't object to dying. That's new covenant, guys. That's an inspired apostle. Noting Hebrews 11 as well,

47:59

Jeff, for listeners who are wrestling with this, because in Hebrews 11, where the scripture in the new covenant is reflecting on all the examples for us in the older covenant to be emulated.

48:13

We're clearly told that there were a number of heroes of the faith who battled foreign armies and overcame by faith and that they were commended for their faith so that they acted in faith when they did that.

48:31

And they were commended for that faith. So the notion that you cannot be involved in the execution of justice, whether it's through the courts, like you've just been talking about the death penalty, or whether it's in military service without violating

48:48

God's word is simply untrue. It can be done in faith and in trust and in confidence in God.

48:54

Hebrews 11 is explicit about that. Very good. One, I guess, final words here. We're probably not going to get to the Bonson clips today.

49:01

I'll just point you guys to it. Go listen to the radio program. I think it will greatly benefit you. It's on YouTube right now,

49:06

Greg Bonson, and just type in Greg Bonson War and you'll see the radio show that Dr. Bonson did discussing this.

49:12

I think it's very helpful. Also, Dr. Bonson has a good series on Just War Theory at cmfnow .com

49:19

and so you can go check that out if you want an expanded version. Just quickly, I think it'd be good for us to at least talk for a moment about, okay,

49:27

I'm buying it. I agree. Okay, scripture's clear. Warfare can be for righteous cause, even in a new covenant, and I get to protect victims and justice matters.

49:38

Civil government is God's deacon to basically wield the sword of justice and vengeance is mine, says the

49:45

Lord, but his avenger is civil government. Huh. Okay, so what does that look like today?

49:51

Well, I would just say very simply, and we can expand on this for a long time, I would say very simply that we don't have, our canon is closed, we don't have a divine word coming from God or walking among us to tell us when

50:09

God says, okay, you're going to be employed in an offensive war here because I'm bringing justice now upon this nation.

50:18

That does happen in God's word. God has the right as the judge, as the holy one, to bring vengeance upon evildoers and he can say to his people with a divine authority,

50:30

I'm telling you to end this tribe because that's a righteous cause.

50:35

Because these are wicked people and I'm going to end them through you as the instrument. We don't have that today in a new covenant.

50:42

We don't have that kind of word coming from God to tell us offensively, here's what you're to do.

50:47

So, I would say, given that we don't have that word, the principle that we most have to hang on from scripture through and through is defensive posture only.

50:58

A defensive posture. So if you were to ask me personally, I believe that when we are engaging in a policing the world effort as a nation,

51:08

I believe that we're engaged in unjust and sinful activities. When we are not personally under threat or we haven't been warned of a bomb coming or something like that.

51:18

When we're in a place where we're not engaging in a defensive posture, we're in trouble in terms of having to face

51:26

God for that. However, I do believe that a defensive posture is a godly and righteous posture and engaging in warfare to protect the lives of the innocent in a defensive way is something that glorifies

51:40

God. Dr. Boot? Well, there's a long, Jeff, and rich tradition, as you're well aware, of just war thinking in the history of the church.

51:53

It's not that there weren't pacifistic ideas from early on, certainly

51:59

Tertullian and Hippolytus, but when we look to men like Augustine and Thomas Aquinas and John Calvin and then beyond into the

52:14

Puritan tradition and so forth, we see the development of a fairly consistent view based on the scriptures of the

52:21

God of justice, all the things that you talked about, that where a war is declared by a legitimate authority, so it's not something that's about personal vengeance and private wars and private conflicts, but, you know, so just as you pointed out there, it's not about policing the world or even organizations within governments like the

52:40

CIA or carrying out private wars, undeclared wars, this kind of thing. That's not what we have in view.

52:47

A legitimately declared war by a legitimate authority would be the first principle that Augustine and Aquinas and the reformers would have identified.

52:56

Then they would have talked about the just cause involved, that there is actually a fault, a wrong, that is necessary to rectify.

53:06

This may be because the hostilities are being turned against you as a country or just as with the provocation of the

53:16

Second World War, you see a military power, like at the time Nazi Germany, invading

53:23

Czechoslovakia and then going into Poland with whom the British had a mutual defense treaty.

53:30

So you see that there is a very legitimate cause, so it's declared legitimately, there's a legitimate cause, and then the intention of the conflict is to restore justice and peace, that the goal is not total war, the goal is not a radical imperial agenda just to extend the borders of a given nation, but there is actually a good intention behind it, that our intention is the restoration of God's order.

53:57

Those three fundamental principles, I think, are there throughout the tradition, and then you could add, on the end of there, proportionality.

54:06

So we see that concern in the Bible, in fact, God's laws for the

54:12

Israelites in war was that they did not destroy all of the means of production of people that they were overcoming in war, so you don't destroy all of the fruit trees, that war is not total war, it has to be proportionate, and so, actually, historically, as you look back over the

54:32

Christian tradition, and this is very interesting, you know, war was relatively indiscriminate in the pagan past, it wasn't governed by rules, you rarely see that, it was often cruel and vicious, that's the way the pagan world was, as you see the

54:51

Christian era emerging, you look at the Middle Ages, the high Middle Ages, and the emergence of chivalry, and rules for war that were concerned about proportionality, and that goes on to develop even further, and as you look at the modern

55:06

Western world, there were deliberate attempts made to redistinguish, you know, in our contemporary discussions between combatants and non -combatants, and how can we minimize collateral damage, so we saw two terrible wars, the

55:21

First and Second World War, were total war in the sense that the whole nation, I mean, you know, the entire industrial strength of Britain, of the

55:29

United States, of Canada, and of others, were engaged in a conflict with the entire nations, as an industrial power of Japan, and Germany, and Italy, the

55:40

Axis powers there, and there were times in those conflicts, where we moved well outside of just decisions, so, for example, the bombing of Dresden, a

55:55

German hospital city, and so forth, as a revenge attack for the Blitz on London, some of those things would have to be scrutinized by Christians, and say, well, was every, not necessarily every engagement of those wars was just, but overall,

56:08

I think we can look at World War II, certainly, and say this was a just war, but proportionality,

56:15

I think, would be a fourth thing that we could add, as Christians, to what Augustine and Thomas Aquinas were pointing out, especially as we look at modern industrial power, and modern technology, and the destructive power of modern weapons, proportionality becomes another aspect of our thinking about just war.

56:31

Yes, very good. And that was good. Very helpful. So, one more response, and it came by way of a comment coming in through live feed, someone said that he doesn't care how foolish he looks, if the world uses violence, he's choosing peace.

56:46

And then he further says, I see nothing about Jesus and his disciples going to war using violence, but I do see them preaching the gospel and dying for it.

56:55

So, here's an example of what Pastor Luke was referring to earlier, of people not being able to think in categories.

57:01

You have a sphere of government, Romans 13, instituted by God to wield the sword of justice, that's where vengeance comes from, that's the purpose of civil government, there's a sphere.

57:14

And then you have a sphere over here of the church, right? So, is the church supposed to engage in warfare, in terms of that's the mission of the church, to preach the gospel and to take heads, baby?

57:27

No. No. Because we're disciples of Jesus Christ, we're disciples of Jesus Christ, we follow

57:32

Jesus, we're to preach the gospel. And here's the thing I would say, if you are in a situation where martyrdom for the cause of the gospel is a thing, then yeah, you get martyred, you get your head taken, you get a beating and all the rest.

57:45

But I would say this, like Paul, if you can avoid the beating, and like Jesus, if you can avoid being killed, when it wasn't his time, he'd slip out of the crowd or escape from them.

57:54

They pick up stones to kill him on a number of occasions and they didn't, and of course he was in control of that, but Paul's like lowered out of windows and escaping with his life to avoid martyrdom.

58:04

He's not just running headlong into it, kill me, kill me. He's actually getting away from it. But martyrdom's a thing, and I'd say, if you've got me shackled, my hands behind my back and feet locked up, and you're like,

58:15

I'm going to take your head off, I just got to say, then take my head. I'm not going to fight you back. You can kill me. That's a different context.

58:23

In fact, in the illustration you give there of the apostle Paul, which is a very good one, when there was a plot uncovered to kill

58:31

Paul, and Paul sends a messenger to the Roman official, the military official about it.

58:39

Paul accepts an armed garrison, an armed guard to escort him from the city safely to fend off any attack.

58:48

And as of course, famously, Jesus tells his disciples to buy swords. And people often never ask, they say, well, you know, look, when they came to arrest

58:58

Jesus, Peter drew his sword, cut off the ear of the servant, and Jesus told him to sheathe his sword and rebuked

59:06

Peter for that action. And that's true because Jesus had a unique mission. And he told

59:11

Pilate, look, if my kingdom was from this world, if its power was from this world like your

59:17

Roman authority, then my followers would have fought to prevent my arrest. But my kingdom is not from this world.

59:23

The authority and power of the kingdom of God doesn't come from the edge of the sword. It comes from the power of God himself.

59:30

But people rarely ask, why was Peter carrying a sword in the first place? Well, he was carrying a sword because you were at risk as travelers on the road from bandits and robbers.

59:41

He wasn't using it to pick his teeth or shave in the morning like Crocodile Dundee. That's right. And this is frequently overlooked.

59:50

And I think you've hit right on the button there with that argument about sphere sovereignty, Jeff, which is the issue of justice looks different depending on which sphere of life you're in at a given time.

01:00:02

So which you're thinking about. So my responsibility toward justice as an individual is non -vengeance in my personal relationships.

01:00:14

As a member of the church, what does justice look like? Well, it certainly looks different from just the individual or the family.

01:00:21

It looks like church discipline. And the church doesn't bear the sword, but it does excommunicate.

01:00:28

Now, I can't excommunicate a member of my family because justice in my family looks like parental discipline and not state power of execution and not church discipline.

01:00:39

So the expression of justice in the individual's life, in the life of the family, in the life of the church, and then in the life of the state looks different.

01:00:49

As a Christian, I can be, I can live as a Christian in all of those spheres and in each of them, how justice is expressed, the fundamental principle of tribution looks slightly different.

01:01:02

It looks different in the family, in the church, and then if I'm a politician or a civil magistrate or a judge or a military commander, it looks different there because the obligations and responsibilities that impinge upon me in that sphere, in the public sphere of civil government, looks different.

01:01:20

And that's what that comment is missing, which I think you've identified there.

01:01:26

This is how justice is expressed in these different spheres looks different. We mustn't confuse those.

01:01:32

Very good, and that's the important element. Yeah, I was just thinking of John Knox. Somebody saw something earlier in the comments.

01:01:38

I know we've got to wrap it up here, but I saw someone said, well, the martyrs didn't carry swords or whatever, and I'm thinking, have you read about John Knox?

01:01:48

He literally stood in front of George Wishart with a sword. His whole mission started with a sword. Yeah, because he was the bodyguard.

01:01:54

John Knox was a bodyguard for a well -known Scottish preacher, and he carried a sword, yes. Exactly. No, that doesn't mean he was out looking for heads to chop, but he was there as protection.

01:02:04

He was there to preserve human life. And the evangelical, modern evangelicalism would not even be here were it not for the

01:02:13

English Puritan tradition in the Anglosphere anyway, the English Puritan tradition, which was concerned with the defense of the freedom of Christians to worship, to practice their faith, to serve

01:02:28

God, and that took an English Civil War. Exactly. I was going to say, the covenanters you're talking about, they were literally hunted down.

01:02:35

That's right, the Scottish covenanters and then the English Puritans as well and the

01:02:41

English Civil War. That was a necessary struggle for justice that led to eventually the

01:02:48

Glorious Revolution in 1688 and the religious freedom that we enjoy today. Amen. So one last word and thought on this.

01:02:56

I'll just give you guys my personal thoughts. This isn't meant to be an attack. I don't want you guys to feel any shame over this, but I want you to know how

01:03:01

I feel about this in terms of what I believe can be defended from Scripture as a concern for victims and victims' rights and loving those neighbors as well.

01:03:11

I would say this. If we take the perspective that as a Christian, in all instances, without thinking of categories,

01:03:19

I am to basically never fight back. I'm not to engage in combat.

01:03:25

I'm not to take the life of another person. I would say, can I just suggest to you this scenario?

01:03:31

If you're married, probably better to put it this way. Imagine your wife and your children and you are asleep in bed in your homes.

01:03:41

It's 2 o 'clock in the morning. You hear the window break. You hear the door kicked open, and in your house floods a mob.

01:03:50

And this mob is not there because you're a Christian. They picked a random home. This isn't persecution for the cause of Christ.

01:03:57

This isn't because you've got Bibles in your homes. Let's pretend like this is a BLM looting and rioting moment.

01:04:04

And let's say that this is just random people. They don't even know what the protest is about. They just joined the club, this thing coming down the street.

01:04:12

They're burning, rioting, looting. They come into your home, and a mob is in your home right now.

01:04:18

And this mob starts beating your children, and they're there intent on, say, and forgive me for saying it, but let's try to think through this because this is the kind of world we live in.

01:04:27

They're intent on raping your daughter and your wife. I actually think that it would be a shameful act.

01:04:34

I agree. A shameful act before God not to defend your children and your wife, even at the cost of your own life.

01:04:44

I think you would be required by God to physically stop somehow, if you can, the mob attempting to do this injustice and this evil to your family.

01:04:55

You'd have an obligation. So when someone says, peace always, never fighting back,

01:05:00

I would say, even in that scenario, please think about that because I think that's immoral. Yeah, any other answer than the one you've given there,

01:05:08

Jeff, to that scenario, to my mind, is pious gush and evil. Yes. I think we would be held accountable to God.

01:05:15

Scripture says if a man does not provide for his own, he is denied the faith and is worse than an infidel.

01:05:21

A basic level of provision of a father in a home is protection.

01:05:28

I am to provide a place of safety and I'm to make provision for my family.

01:05:34

That means provision for their protection as well. I think it's a denial of the faith to take any other posture on that.

01:05:40

Agreed. Dr. Boot, you're a blessing and a gift. I can't wait to see you again, brother, maybe one day post -COVID.

01:05:47

Once they open the borders back up, hopefully. That's right. Soon, I hope. Yes, you're a gift, brother.

01:05:53

One more time for anyone that joined us in the middle of the episode, where can people go to get more from you? Ezra Institute, as in the biblical

01:06:01

Ezra, ezrainstitute .ca and all our resources and our study programs. We love having our

01:06:06

American friends up here, and as you've mentioned, Jeff, Apollo Gear Ministries, Jeff and the guys are frequently with us up here for some of our programs.

01:06:15

We'd love to see some of our American friends at our programs over the next 12 months. Resources and books and so forth, if you're interested in going deeper on these issues, we'd love to be able to serve you with those resources.

01:06:25

Just tell everyone right now, get Dr. Boot's book, Mission of God. Get it, sell your shirt, sell your shoes, sell an item if you have to to purchase that book.

01:06:34

Make sure you get it and you start reading it and meditating on the things that are taught in that book. I encourage you guys to get

01:06:40

Mission of God by Dr. Joseph Boot. Make it a priority, guys. Thank you, Dr. Boot. We'll hopefully talk to you soon.

01:06:47

Thank you for having me, guys. It's been a joy. Bless you. Bless you, brother. All right, guys. Before we get out,

01:06:52

I got to do it. Let's have some fun. I know you guys are still hanging on there. We've gone a little over an hour today, but I just got to play it.

01:06:59

You guys heard about what Pelosi did. Grandma Gugu. Grandma Gugu is at it again.

01:07:05

The hypocrisy of these people is truly stunning.

01:07:11

It's staggering. Of course, we know it. We see it so much. These people don't know

01:07:16

Jesus or love Jesus, many of them. Radical leftists, people like Pelosi, Grandma Gugu.

01:07:22

Their worldview is so corrupt. They are personally so corrupt, and that's been demonstrated over and over and over again.

01:07:30

How these people get elected by any rational, sane -thinking people is beyond me. But that's judgment from God, obviously, to have these kind of people ruling over people.

01:07:39

Nancy Pelosi, of course, in the midst of encouraging masks and lockdowns and destruction of the global economy and even the economy of her own personal community, all while she has delicious ice creams in this very, very pricey fridge she's showing on her video, she's doing well.

01:08:02

She's fine. She's still receiving paychecks. Was she the one that was trying to act like she was drinking beer? That was her, right?

01:08:08

No, that was Pocahontas. Oh, that's right. But Grandma Gugu was the one where she was showing, like, this is my kitchen.

01:08:19

She's always, you know, this is my kitchen. And she shows this banging fridge and freezer system.

01:08:25

And I mean, it's like, whoa, who owns something like that? She does. And she's like, I'm fine. I got all my delicious ice creams in here.

01:08:33

So she's doing well. Everyone, don't worry about Pelosi. She's fine. But she, of course, wants everyone else to lose their businesses and homes and jobs and money and financial futures.

01:08:44

And she's, stay home. Everyone stay home and lock down and shut the businesses down. To hell with everybody is sort of the mantra because we love our neighbors.

01:08:54

So anyway, Pelosi is caught going to a hair salon. I'm sure some of you guys saw this.

01:09:01

I'll play the clip because if you didn't see it, you need to see it. And I think this would be a blessing to see.

01:09:08

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi claims she was set up, in her words, by a hair salon in San Francisco. It's a response to this video of Pelosi getting her hair done on Monday with no mask on.

01:09:19

The city's pandemic orders do not allow hair salons to open indoors. Her hairdresser's lawyer also says the government's top

01:09:25

Democrat was set up because So her argument is, of course, because she was caught, that she was set up.

01:09:33

And by the way, anybody else really worried about her as she was coming to that stair? I mean, deep down,

01:09:39

I was like, oh, please don't fall. Like, don't hurt yourself. Don't break your head. Yeah, don't do, yeah. But anyway, so there's video footage of her in a salon.

01:09:46

So nobody else, you can't get your hair did. But these elite, right?

01:09:52

The crown can, but you peasants, you cannot. So I'll give you another example of where this happened earlier this year.

01:09:59

And many of you guys saw this before. This is just absolutely irritating. Hey, what's up?

01:10:05

I'm bored. You're saving lives. But a photo that surfaced on social media showing the mayor after getting a trim has some asking, what about me?

01:10:19

The mayor was asked at least twice about the haircut this afternoon. I'm out in the public eye.

01:10:24

And, you know, I'm I'm I'm a person who I take my personal hygiene very seriously.

01:10:30

As I said, I felt like I needed to have a haircut. I'm not able to do that myself.

01:10:36

And so I got a haircut. Nobody else. You're not allowed to take your hygiene and your appearance very seriously.

01:10:45

But she she does. You stay home. But come on, guys. I got to look good. I got to look good, y 'all.

01:10:50

I mean, but you stay home. So she does all these like promotional videos to like everyone stay home, stay home.

01:10:56

You're saving lives by staying home. But dang it, I got to look good, girl. My hair did. Did she get her hair done?

01:11:03

Did she get her hair done? Beetlejuice. I don't know. OK, so I'm just going to say it because it's it seems obvious.

01:11:10

What's that show with Eddie Murphy where he plays all the the characters? Oh, is it

01:11:16

Nutty Professor? Nutty Professor. Yeah. The tape where they have the family scene where it's the guy and his hair starts all the way in the back of his head.

01:11:22

Yeah. This whole thing is just a big shiny dome. But the hair starts back here and it's just a little poof. That's what it looks like.

01:11:29

It also looks like Beetlejuice. I think you could. I think you could probably have let it go. I mean, for your own good and your reputation, because, of course, everybody said, wait a second now.

01:11:36

You're not letting anybody else get their hair did. But you got your hair did. So anyway, you guys saw

01:11:43

Pelosi in the salon. Everyone else not allowed to do it. Here was her response.

01:11:49

I just found this to be so arrogant. Not surprising, but just incredibly arrogant.

01:11:56

This was her response to being caught. Over the years, I've been there many times. I appreciate the question.

01:12:03

And let me just say this. I take responsibility for trusting the word of a neighborhood salon that I've been to over the years many times.

01:12:13

And that when they said, well, we're able to accommodate people one person at a time and that we can set up that time,

01:12:22

I trusted that. But as it turns out, it wasn't set up. So I take responsibility for falling for a set up.

01:12:30

And that's all I'm going to say. Oh, boy, that's crafty. Right. I'm going to take responsibility that I fell for their sinful actions.

01:12:40

Right. Can you imagine if someone came in to us as pastors who are doing counseling and we're trying to manage conflict and bring reconciliation?

01:12:47

And someone we say, well, are you going to repent of what you did? You really should. And they go, you know what? I am.

01:12:53

I'm going to repent of believing that fool. I don't think you're really sorry.

01:13:05

I appreciate the question, everyone. And I'm going to go ahead and take full responsibility for believing those guys. They're idiots.

01:13:11

I mean, it's like, does anybody really buy this? I mean, how does she still have her position? Probably a lot of money involved in keeping her in position like that.

01:13:20

And alive. Yeah, exactly. But Pelosi's response to being caught is like, well,

01:13:27

I just was told that this was allowed. Really? You didn't know? Like, you didn't know the laws?

01:13:33

Aren't you a part of this whole situation? And you didn't understand what the rules were and the regulations were?

01:13:39

I think we all know what's really going on there. But I think it's important to note as we finish, the reason

01:13:45

I wanted to bring it up is I think people are getting tired of this. People are getting tired of losing their homes, getting tired of losing their financial futures.

01:13:54

They're getting tired of having a hard time feeding their families and themselves. They're getting tired of losing their businesses.

01:14:00

Except the Kauai chickens, apparently. Yeah. What do you mean? There's a bunch of chickens on Kauai that wear suits.

01:14:08

Well, actually, they wear Hawaiian shirts, but in public office, they're fine with.

01:14:13

Yes, yeah, exactly. People, I think, are in a place where it's refreshing to see other human beings' faces, and they want to start seeing them again.

01:14:26

People want to get back to work, and people, I think, are done with the hypocrisy and the lies and the obvious attempts to utilize this current circumstance for their own political purposes and even financial gain.

01:14:42

And so moments like this are interesting because I think it's powerful because these radical leftists, these hypocrites, these

01:14:52

Democrats, many of them, have branded themselves alongside the rioters and the looters and all the rest.

01:15:00

And I think they don't realize how much damage that's going to cause them. And when you have moments like this, where you have these

01:15:06

Democratic governors engaging in activities that they're telling everyone else they cannot engage in,

01:15:12

I think everyone is starting to take notice, and I'm really glad about that. Yeah. I'm really glad about that.

01:15:18

Because it needs to be seen. Yeah, absolutely. And called out. Any last words, Bear? This was really great.

01:15:24

I love Joe so much. Me too. Very much. Hey guys, gonna drop some new videos over the next week that'll really bless you guys.

01:15:32

We got one from Pastor Luke in Las Vegas. We've got one dropping tonight.

01:15:37

It's very moving, very powerful. It's kind of a tribute video we have to a family that we love.

01:15:43

It'll really, really be moving and bless you at the same time. And yeah, be in prayer for us.

01:15:50

Go to EndAbortionNow .com. Get your church signed up for the cause of justice for the pre -born.

01:15:59

Thousands of children are alive today because churches have gone out to preach the gospel. Come join us. EndAbortionNow .com

01:16:05

is where you guys go. You can go there and get free training, get free resources. If you can't get involved in the fight yourself, you can't get on the street, then give at EndAbortionNow .com.

01:16:16

Thank you guys so much. That's Luke DeBear. Peace out. I'm Jeff, the Commenter Ninja. We'll catch you next week right here on Apologia Radio.