November 9, 2022 Show with Dr. Joe Morecraft & Dr. Nathaniel Darnell on “A Christian Looks at the Elections Through the Eyes of the Bible” (Part 2)

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And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this ninth day of November 2022 in the wake of Election Day, in the wake of much disappointment in the hearts and minds of conservatives and Christians around the country who were expecting, with great anticipation and optimism and bated breath, what they were calling a red wave of elections, where Republicans were being placed into office, and some were even predicting a red tsunami, and nothing even close to either of those occurred, but we are still awaiting, and I don't know if it's occurred yet,

I don't know what the final outcome has been yet, but I have been waiting, and so have many, waiting with great anticipation to see if the

Republicans regain control of the House and Senate. The House, at the time

I last looked, was much more promising, but we will find out at some point today, perhaps even when somebody in my audience will let us know, either way, or one of my guests.

But we are conducting part two of a discussion. We began yesterday with my dear friend,

Dr. Joseph C. Moorcraft III. He was on yesterday, Tuesday, the 8th of November, to discuss part one of A Christian Looks at the

Elections Through the Eyes of the Bible, and we are discussing part two of that exact same theme, and joining us in the second hour to add to the discussion will be

Dr. Nathaniel Darnell, and I will give him a more formal introduction later on when he joins us in the second hour of the program.

But in the first hour, we have, as I mentioned, Dr. Joe Moorcraft, who is an author and pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church in Cumming, Georgia, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Trip and Zion Radio, Dr.

Joe Moorcraft. It's always good to be with you. And as I always do, in the event that some are hearing you for the very first time on Iron Trip and Zion Radio, tell our listeners about Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, where you serve as the pastor.

We started the church about six years ago. We have about 60 members, very faithful members.

We are members of the Reformed Presbyterian Church and of a presbytery that is strictly and enthusiastically committed to the inerrancy of Scripture and to the

Westminster Confession of Faith and larger and shorter catechisms. We are wholeheartedly committed to the

Great Commission of bringing the discipline of the Word of God to bear upon all the nations of the world, baptizing them in the name of the

Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe whatever God has commanded us in His Word.

Well, I have a very special place in my heart for Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, because not only do they have the rich blessing of having you as their pastor and have the privilege of being edified and challenged every

Lord's Day through your preaching and teaching, but also because Heritage Presbyterian Church has been a very generous and faithful financial supporter of Iron Trip and Zion Radio, and I will never be able to adequately thank you and the fine folks at Heritage Presbyterian Church enough for your great benevolence to me, and especially at times when the need was urgent and alarming and you came through to the rescue on a number of occasions for me.

So just please extend to the saints at Heritage Presbyterian Church my deepest gratitude for your faithful support.

I will, and I wish we could give you more. Well, thank you again for agreeing to be on the program.

First of all, I just want you to open up and give us your initial thoughts in the wake of what you learned about who won elections, who lost elections, and the elections that have still not been determined 100%.

Well, I was generally disappointed. I thought that the

Republicans would do better all over the country than what they did. They were extremely great and victorious in the state of Florida.

Florida used to be a purple state, and now it's overwhelmingly red. The governor is a

Christian, hard, solid conservative, and they elected Republicans right down the line from the

Capitol on down to the cities and congressmen and congresswomen.

So that was a great victory in Florida. There's still some out.

It'll take probably 10 days for some of them to be known. One of them is in the state of Georgia.

Very important. Any one of these elections will determine who controls the

United States Senate. The Republicans now will have more people in the

House than the Democrats, but there's still a struggle for control of the

Senate. In Georgia, there has been this contest between a radical, extreme, anti -Christian, black

Baptist preacher. I call him Warlock. A very appropriate name.

And he is one of the most humanistic, leftist men in the

United States Congress. The Republican running against him is

Hershel Walker. Hershel Walker, a couple decades ago, was one of the greatest football players in the

United States, played for the University of Georgia. And Hershel Walker is a devout

Christian. He begins his speeches with saying, I want to publicly acknowledge the

Lord Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior, or he won't acknowledge me.

That's how he begins. Excellent. And it is so close, and in Georgia there is a rule that if there's a tie, somebody has to get over 50%, or there's another election.

So there's going to be another election between Walker and Warnock December the 6th.

So we've got to wait until then. There'll be millions of more dollars spent, and we must pray for Hershel, that God would keep him in the fray and cause people not to grow weary in well -doing.

There's two other very important senatorial races. One is in Nevada and the other is in Arizona.

And there's a hairbreadth between all the candidates. But there still is the possibility for Republicans to win in Nevada and Arizona.

The Republican is named Laxalt, and I knew his daddy many years ago when he was a senator from Utah, I think.

And then in Arizona, the senatorial candidate is

Carrie Lake. And so either one of those two people could still win, but it will take a long time before we can find out which is which.

Pennsylvania elected a man to the Senate. Besides his being extremely mentally dysfunctional because of a stroke, he is also one of the most liberal leftist men now in the

United States Senate. He looks more like a wrestler than he does a senator.

And it's going to be interesting to see how he... And it's an embarrassment, in my opinion, that Democrats forced him through because the man obviously is not well.

He's sick. He cannot complete a sentence.

In fact, at his victory announcement last night, he had to read from a piece of paper,

I am your new senator. He couldn't even say it from memory. So Pennsylvania's in for hard times.

Now, I'm not a Republican, and I'm not a Democrat.

Of course. But why do I think this election is so important?

I do that because of the direction of the

United States. We've seen now with two years under Biden that there is the dismantling of this constitutional republic.

There is the attempt to remove the last remnant of Christianity from the foundation of this country.

And they have become more and more... Forget socialism. They've become more and more communistic and more and more perverted in the various policies that they stand.

And they also have increased persecution of those who disagree with them, trying every effort to silence us and shut our mouths and call what we say a dangerous misinformation that strikes right at the heart of this democracy.

Of course, as I said yesterday, this isn't a democracy. It wasn't founded to be a democracy.

A democracy is where the majority of people govern. In a democracy, nobody's property is safe.

Nobody's life is safe. Whatever the majority wants, that becomes the law of the land.

And of course, as we've seen throughout history, democracies easily degenerate into tyrannies because majorities are controlled and manipulated by people and institutions of power.

This country was created to be a Christian republic, a republic governed by the

Constitution, administered by men, elected by the people, not to represent the wishes and demands of the people, but to enforce and represent the rules of the

United States Constitution, which Constitution is based upon a

Christian foundation, not just a Christian foundation, but a reformed

Christian foundation. The Constitution is not perfect, but it is a wonderful document that has preserved this country for 200 years.

I think it's the longest -lasting Constitution in the modern world. Most countries change their

Constitution two or three times. But what the Democrats do, they don't want to change it.

They just treat it like Jell -O. Of course, James Madison, I think it was Madison, not

Monroe, said that this Constitution, based upon morality and by that he meant

Christian principles, will not work in a country where the citizens are not

Christian, where the people who are responsible to defend that Constitution do not believe the religion behind it.

Or as Rush Dooney said, you can't have community without communion. That is, you can't have oneness and unity in a nation unless there is a common faith, and that faith being

Christianity. Well, that faith has changed. And now the faith of the majority of Americans is one of anti -Christianity and of humanism.

One thing that we learned from the election today, if we didn't already know it, is the vast majority of Americans are pro -abortion, and the vast majority of Americans are humanistic.

Many don't even know they are. A humanist is like Adam, someone who wants to determine good and evil for himself without any reference to God or the

Bible. And that represents the majority of Americans.

And many Christians, many Christians pay lip service to the Bible. They tip their hats when the

Bible goes by. They quote the Bible at funerals and marriages and things like that.

And of course they read it on Sunday in a lot of Christian churches, not all. But they have no idea that the

Bible is not simply a book that tells you how to go to heaven when you die, though it is that, but that the

Bible is a manual for creation. It tells you how to build a

Christian culture, how to build a Christian home, how to build a Christian nation. And we learned today in the tightness of this election that most

Americans don't believe that. I said something yesterday that I want to repeat because there may be people on the program listening that weren't here yesterday.

You asked me the question yesterday, why do Christians, the people who profess

Bible -believing Christians, Christianity, why do they vote wrong so many times?

Why do they vote for Biden? Why do they vote for unbiblical policies and laws and they profess to be

Bible -believing Christians? And I said that the answer is several fold.

One, many of them vote wrong because of fear that the humanists have intimidated them and they don't believe in the sovereignty of God.

They don't believe God's in control. They don't believe that God never loses. And so out of fear, they say, well,

I better vote for this or I better vote for that or something worse is going to happen. And so when the liberal sees that's the way you're going to vote, he's going to use that and play on your fear over and over just like we saw in COVID.

We saw a country that was paralyzed by fear, which fear was placed upon the people by the tyrannical mandates of the civil government.

Well, when COVID died down, then they said, well, you got to have another vaccine because they realized, well, they've got to keep

Americans afraid so Americans will fear to do anything other than what they say.

The second reason that Bible -believing Christians vote in a non -Christian manner is out of ignorance.

They haven't been taught the truth. Their preachers have failed them.

I've said many times, the pulpit has been from the beginning of this country, the most powerful and influential institution.

It used to be the most powerful force for good and righteousness.

Now it's the most powerful force in this country for evil and for unrighteousness.

And preachers don't preach the truth in the pulpits. I'm not just talking about liberals. I'm talking about evangelicals and reformed people that the gospel they preach is so narrow.

The applications they make are so narrow. I have the opportunity of teaching a lot of young men who are preparing for the ministry.

And I teach them homiletics, which is how to preach. And I tell them that they, on Sunday when they preach, they haven't done their job if at the end of the sermon they've only made personal applications to people in the congregation.

They still have the responsibility to make cultural applications.

To show the congregation how the text that he preached from applies to them as individuals.

And to show them how the text from which he preached applies to the culture and the society of the

United States. Preachers fall down at that point.

And so it's the preachers that have instilled this ignorance in evangelical and Bible -believing

Christians. That's why many of them still think this is a democracy.

They're ignorant about what a Christian is supposed to stand for.

A Christian is supposed to be loving. So what does that mean? You love people unconditionally no matter what they are or what they've done.

Or whether they're perverts. You love Adolf Hitler unconditionally. This whole idea that we're to love people unconditionally is what's causing us to fall.

One of the things as a nation that there are conditions that where there is a difference when you say we're to love everybody the same and forgive everybody whether they ask us or not.

What we're saying is there's no real difference and God makes no real difference between good and evil. And if there's no real difference between good and evil, brother, we got a hell on earth.

So it's out of fear. It is out of ignorance.

And it's also out of sin. Even evangelical reformed believers are sinners.

And even though we believe the truth we don't always do the truth. And a lot of times we vote wrong out of sin.

Particularly if the politician promises you if you vote for him you'll get more welfare checks, bigger welfare checks.

You'll get COVID checks. You'll get bigger social security.

And even if a Christian knows that the government is to be limited in what it does to the administration of justice because he's a sinful creature he's going to vote for things that will give him more money.

You see the sinful nature of Americans and the fact that the number one issue of the

Democrats by their own mouth is abortion. That they are so afraid of the demise of Roe versus Wade that there's going to be a law outlawing all forms of abortion.

And so they consider that radical and inhumane.

And so they're more vigorously committed to the freedom to have an abortion up to birth or after birth.

So what does that do to Christians? Christian politicians which are pragmatic said well since most people believe in abortion we better not talk about it much since Roe versus Wade passed.

Because if we talk too strongly about abortion and condemn it too vehemently they'll look upon us as bigots as extremists and they won't vote for us.

And so as a result when you see a list of the most important issues of Republicans in this election abortion is about third or fourth or fifth.

The murdering of babies is of little concern now. And the two major issues that the

Republicans talk about all the time is the economy and crime.

In other words they're playing upon the self -interest of these senators in this country saying you should be primarily concerned about your money and your personal security.

The murder of babies is way down the line. Just be concerned for yourself. So we've learned a lot

I hope in the past year looking at the contrast between the

Biden administration and the Bible it's more starkly clearly differentiated.

The tears are looking more like tears and when we start looking more like wheat things will start changing.

But as I said yesterday there's no revival. And we learned that today.

There's no Christian revival. We must pray for revival reformation renewal of the

Christian church because apart from that nothing will change. Well we are going to our first station break right now as very well said brother.

If anybody has a question that they'd like to ask of Dr. Moorcraft our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail dot com chrisarnzn at gmail dot com as always give us your first name, at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the

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We're now back with my dear friend, Dr. Joseph C. Moorcraft III.

We are in Part 2 of a discussion that we began yesterday.

This is a discussion on the current events that have taken place since Election Day, and we are looking at the elections through biblical eyes.

During the second hour of the program, we're going to be joined by Dr. Nathaniel Darnell.

who will continue this discussion, but we have an anonymous listener, and the anonymous listener says,

I'm remaining anonymous because it's such a leftist world out there that my own employment may be in jeopardy if I identify myself as a pro -life activist, but I'm very disturbed by what

I am hearing from even Republicans in the news who have been lamenting that the losses that have occurred have predominantly been due to the members of their own party who are running for office who are too extreme on abortion.

That gets my blood to boil because they're obviously trying to promote the idea that the next time around we should be promoting candidates that are more mild about this very hellish issue, which is, as we all know who are

Christian, the murder of children. I was wondering how you respond to that very thing.

Well, I share your concern. This is one of the effective ways that the humanists have brought fear into the lives of Christians.

They are Christians who are pragmatists. They are not people who are consistent with principle, and so they are scared to death that they're going to lose elections if anybody finds out they believe in abortion.

So not only do they find more and more exceptions so that they say, well, we're not against all abortions.

We're against abortions except those that have to do with rape or incest or the life of the mother.

But that's not bad. That's bad enough. They just don't talk about abortion at all.

They, the liberals have so intimidated them that they don't bring up abortion because it is such a, in their minds, negative issue in the

United States. Well, it is true if many, many millions of people found out that you're running for office and you are a strong pro -lifer, they will vote against you.

And if they find out you don't believe in any exceptions, they'll more strenuously vote against you.

Or so cowards think, the Lord honors those that honor him.

But if we're afraid to stand for God's word, why can we expect

God to bless us? The other day, last week, I think it was, Hershel Walker running for the

United States Senator in Georgia. I heard him say it. He said, not only am

I against abortion, but I am against abortion and I don't, there are no exceptions where abortion is right.

Now, that took extreme courage and now here he is within a breath of becoming a

United States Senator. So, Christians must believe in God.

They must believe what the Bible says, the Lord honors those that honor him.

Is that true or not? That doesn't mean that we should not be wise.

We should be very wise in the way we say things and not just blast out like a cannon.

But nevertheless, we cannot back down. What I did when I ran for the United States Congress, I ran two campaigns.

I ran one campaign for humanists and I emphasized the things that I knew that they would be concerned with.

National defense, inflation, and then the other campaign was distinctively

Christian. I wouldn't compromise my Christian faith in either one of those. And one time

I was at a coffee at a Republican's house and I knew they were humanists.

So, I talked about inflation and national defense and things like that.

And then during the question and answer period, a man said, Mr. Moorcraft, do you believe in abortion?

Well, I knew that that would be the end of my influence with them. And so I said, yes.

No, I do not believe in abortion. And he said, do you believe that the

United States government should sponsor or finance abortion in any way?

I said, no, sir, I don't. I could see the look in their eyes, their support for me waning.

And he said, do you believe that the civil government should legalize abortion?

I said, no, expecting that to be the end of that.

And then he said, oh, Mr. Moorcraft, I'm going to vote for you because I'm a libertarian.

I'm not a Christian, but I don't believe that the government should restrict people. And I certainly don't believe that they should finance abortion.

And he wasn't a Christian at all. And yet he respected me for telling the truth.

And that's the way we have to do. I mean, if a Christian runs for office like Mitch McConnell wants him to, he will be milquetoast.

He will not be extreme on any issue. He'll be as middle of the road as he possibly can, because that's the way you get elected.

That's not the way you get elected. The way you get elected is like being a

Hershel Walker or being a DeSantis or standing for issues without fear.

And as long as we can be intimidated into keeping our mouths shut, we can't expect anything good to happen.

So I share this brother's concern for those politicians who, in my opinion, have sold out.

If there's a Republican who says, well, we better not talk about abortion because we may lose votes.

Or we may say we can talk about abortion as long as we say there's exceptions.

He's a coward. We have

Bebe in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, who has said that, let's see, she says, or he,

I don't know if Bebe is a man or a woman, Bebe Warfield was a man. Bebe says that there are many pro -life

Christians who support things such as a heartbeat bill. But I've also heard some stronger advocates of abortion abolishment who are even against such things as heartbeat bills because, number one, it legitimizes the murder of children before a heartbeat can be detected.

And also, these devices used to detect heartbeats can be easily cheated in the wrong hands.

I was wondering what your reaction to this whole heartbeat bill issue is.

Well, that is a very good point to make. A lot of the allegedly pro -life bills that states are passing are really parole abortion bills.

For instance, heartbeat, when the heart is detected,

I think 15 days or something, and after that, no abortions. What about the little babies before the 15th day?

That little baby before the 15th day in the womb was made the image of God from the moment he was conceived.

And God told Noah, if any man kills another man made the image of God, the man that killed him should forfeit his own life.

And so heartbeat bills are pro -abortion bills. And then there's parental consent bills that you can't get an abortion without parental consent.

I don't even believe in abortions with parental consent. The point is that if you get parental consent, then you can get an abortion.

So you see, because we're not going by the word of God and being consistent with what we believe, and because we're living by fear rather than by faith, we wind up supporting the very thing we hate.

The best right -to -life organization in any state in the

United States is Georgia Right to Life. They are fearless.

They are not afraid to call abortion murder. They are not for all these bills that are ultimately pro -abortion bills.

Now, there's nothing radical with saying that. I mean, is a Christian against murdering babies or not?

That's the issue. And so he's not going to say, well, most babies.

I don't believe we should kill most babies. But there's some we could kill. You kill any baby, you're a murderer.

So Christians must stand firm and not go along with the crowd. And many of the

Republican leadership is the crowd today. Stand with those who say,

I believe that abortion for any reason is murder of a human being made in the image of God and is therefore a capital crime.

As I said yesterday, the Surgeon General during Reagan's years was a man named

Everett Koop. And Everett Koop was an OBGYN. And he'd been one for many, many years.

And he was famous for being an OBGYN. And he said one time that in all of his career, he had never had a case where a baby had to be aborted in order to save the mother's life.

Well, Joe, I would like you to have several minutes to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today.

Because as you know, your friend Nathaniel Darnell is going to be coming on as our second guest today to continue this very same theme.

Nathaniel Darnell is a very influential young man. And his wife is a very articulate woman who is the vice president of Georgia Right to Life.

So that will be an enjoyable hour. I want to talk about one thing that Christians get wrong.

And as a result, they're easily intimidated. When a

Christian does have the courage to speak out against homosexuality or sexual perversion or abortion, the easiest way for a humanist to cause them to start crawling back like a crawdabber or crawfish is to say, well,

I thought you believed the separation of church and state. And most

Christians don't have any answer at that point in time. Or they'll make it even harder on the

Christian. They'll say, we thought you liked the United States Constitution.

The First Amendment talks about the separation of church and state. And the

Christian will just sort of hem all around and not know what to say. So a

Christian has got to be extremely knowledgeable right then and there and point out the ignorance of his critic.

You should look him right in the face and say, sir, lovingly but firmly, the

United States Constitution and the Bill of Rights say absolutely nothing about the separation of church and state.

The old Soviet Union Constitution did talk about the separation of church and state.

But neither the Bill of Rights nor the Constitution either talk about the separation of church and state.

The First Amendment of the Bill of Rights simply says,

Congress shall not, etc., restrict the practice of religion or establish religion.

And the point there is, if you read the commentaries on the Constitution by a Supreme Court justice of the late 1700s named

Joseph Story, you'll find that the First Amendment did not have its purpose to separate

Christianity from the state or to separate the church and state. But the point he said of that First Amendment was that no denomination of Christians can impose itself upon the nation as the national denomination to which everyone must subscribe.

Now, the reason he said that is because in the 1700s, the Anglican Church in England would cause people, you had to pay tithes to that church.

And other churches like Baptist or Presbyterian were illegal. But the First Amendment of the

Constitution in no way, shape, or form talks about the separation of Christianity and state or the separation of church and state.

So what do we believe? Well, we look at our critics and say, well, you're right,

I do believe in the institutional separation of church and state. I believe the church is a distinct institution and the state is a distinct institution.

And the church must not act like the state and the state must not act like the church, that they are two distinct institutions with two distinct jurisdictions.

And both, however, are accountable to the law of God, because we do not believe in the separation of God and state or of God and church.

The state is just as accountable to God as is the church, because the

Bible says, and it's a great point to witness, you can say that it'll either convert the unbeliever or make him hate you.

You say, as the Bible says in Revelation 1, 5, Jesus is the ruler of the kings of the earth.

Now, that's not a political statement. I don't know what politics are. He is the ruler to whom all political institutions is accountable, are accountable.

He is the king of kings and Lord of lords. I love what he said to Pontius Pilate.

Jesus, toward the end of his life, had been tried by the Jewish church and the only thing they wanted to know was theological questions, are you the son of God?

But then when he stood before the state, before Pontius Pilate, Pilate didn't care about theology, he only wanted to know politics.

He said to Jesus, who stood before him, are you a king?

All I want to know, I don't care about theology. I want to know, are you a threat to my authority?

Are you a king I ought to be afraid of? And Jesus said, clearly, it is as you say.

Amen. And we've got to go now, Joe. Well, we've got to go to our midway break, but that's a great way to end the segment with you.

And we're going to be joined by Nathaniel Darnell any moment now.

I just want to repeat your website for Heritage Presbyterian Church of Coming Georgia, heritagepresbyterianchurch .com.

Don't go away, folks. We'll be right back after these messages. Here's what

Gary DeMar, president of American Vision, had to say about Iron Sharpens Iron Radio recently.

Good to be back. Chris, I always enjoy our time. I have to tell you, one of the better interviewers out there, and I've been doing this for 30, more than 30 years.

Wow, that's some compliment. How much do I owe you for that? You don't have to owe me anything.

We're in good shape. I'm glad you said it on the air, so I don't have to brag about myself.

Tell your friends and loved ones about Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, airing live Monday through Friday, 4 to 6 p .m.

Eastern time at ironsharpensironradio .com. Hi, this is

John Sampson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona, taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnson and the

Iron Sharpens Iron podcast. I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity. He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big, penetrating questions, while always defending the key doctrines of the

Christian faith. I've always been happy to point people to this podcast, knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the internet where folk won't be led astray.

I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide. This is a day of great spiritual compromise, and yet God has raised

Chris up for just such a time. Knowing this, it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances.

I'm pleased to do so, and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting

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I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would. All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com,

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This is Pastor Bill Sousa, Grace Church at Franklin, here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support Iron Sharpens Iron Radio financially.

Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in Scripture through the person and work of our

Lord Jesus Christ. And of course, the end from which we strive is the glory of God.

If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some

Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior. Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.

Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org. That's gracechurchatfranklin .org.

This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our

Sovereign Lord, God, Savior, and King Jesus Christ today and always.

When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the NASB.

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NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Rich Jensen of Hope Reform Baptist Church in Quorum, New York, and the

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I'm Dr. Tony Costa, Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love,

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It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God, like the dear saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Coram, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in his holy word, and to enthusiastically proclaim

Christ Jesus the King and his doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island, and beyond.

I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love as I have.

For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net, that's hopereformedli .net,

or call 631 -696 -5711, that's 631 -696 -5711.

Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, New York, that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.

If you love Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, one of the best ways you can help keep the show on the air is by supporting our advertisers.

One such faithful advertiser who really believes in what Chris Arnton is doing is

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Thanks for helping to keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. As host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

A church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey, pastored by Alan Dunn.

Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's God's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshipped and how he shall be represented in the world.

They believe churches need to turn to the Bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship

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Or call them at 908 -996 -7654. That's 908 -996 -7654.

Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. We here at Iron Sharpens Iron Radio praise

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Sterling Vandewerker, owner of Royal Diadem Jewelers, his wife, Bronnie, his business partner and manager,

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Have you noticed the gap that exists between the Sunday morning sermon and the Sunday school classroom or the small group study?

So often we experience great preaching from the pulpit, but when it comes time to study God's word in those smaller settings, well, let's be honest, it leaves a lot to be desired.

It seems like it is nearly impossible to find good curriculum out there today that is true to the word of God and is built upon sound doctrine.

Much less it's hard to find curriculum that will actually teach people how to study the Bible. Hi there, my name is

Jordan Too, and I am the executive director of the Baptist Publishing House. Our ministry is dedicated to providing local churches with sound

Bible study resources. Our quarterly curriculum is titled the Baptist Expositor.

And for good reason, we are Baptist and we exegete the scriptures. If you want to have a curriculum that teaches your people how to study the word of God, I invite you go to our website, download a free study, baptistpublishinghouse .com.

May God bless you. It's such a blessing to hear from Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listeners from all over the world.

Here's Joe Reilly, a listener in Ireland, who wants you to know about a guest on the show he really loves hearing interviewed,

Dr. Joe Moorcraft. I'm Joe Reilly, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listener here in Atai, in County Kildare, Ireland.

Going back to 2005, one of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is

Dr. Joe Moorcraft. If you've been blessed by Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr. Moorcraft and Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia are largely thanked since they are one of the program's largest financial supporters.

Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming is in Forsyth County, a part of the Atlanta metropolitan area.

Heritage is a thoroughly biblical church, unwaveringly committed to Westminster standards. And Dr.

Joe Moorcraft is the author of an eight -volume commentary on the larger catechism. Heritage is a member of the

Hanover Presbytery, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone, and tracing its roots and heritage back to the great

Protestant Reformation of the 16th century. Heritage maintains and follows the biblical truth and principles proclaimed by the reformers, scripture alone, grace alone, faith alone,

Christ alone, and God's glory alone. Their primary goal is the worship of the Triune God that continues in eternity.

For more details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit HeritagePresbyterianChurch .com.

That's HeritagePresbyterianChurch .com. Or call 678 -954 -7831.

That's 678 -954 -7831. If you visit, tell them

Joe O 'Reilly, an Iron Sharpens Iron radio listener from Attoy in County Kildare, Ireland, sends you.

Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said, Give yourself unto reading. The man who never reads will never be read.

He who never quotes will never be quoted. He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own.

You need to read. Solid Ground Christian Books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the

Prince of Preachers to heart. The mission of Solid Ground Christian Books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and future, and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.

Since its beginning in 2001, Solid Ground has been committed to publish God -centered, Christ -exalting books for all ages.

We invite you to go treasure hunting at Solid -Ground -Books .com. That's Solid -Ground -Books .com,

and see what priceless literary gems from the past to present you can unearth from Solid Ground.

Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. And please, folks, with Christmas coming up, make

Solid -Ground -Books .com your very first stop for all your gift -giving needs.

They bring back into print and publish for the first time as well nothing but the very finest in Christian literature, dating back to the

Protestant Reformation and extending forward to our current day, including such modern -day authors as Dr.

James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries. So please go to Solid -Ground -Books .com,

purchase frequently, purchase generously. Always mention that you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Before I introduce my second guest today, who happens to be a dear friend of Dr.

Joe Moorcraft, who was our first guest on the program, Dr. Nathaniel Darnell, before I introduce him,

I just have some important announcements to make. Folks, if you really love this show, you love the guests that I interview, you don't want the show to go off the air, please,

I'm urging you, as I do every day, go to IronSharpensIronRadio .com, click support, then click, click to donate now.

You could donate instantly with a debit or credit card in that fashion. And if you prefer a snail mail, mailing in a physical check to a physical address the old -fashioned way, there will be a physical address that appears on your screen when you click support at IronSharpensIronRadio .com,

where you can mail your checks made payable to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. If you want to advertise with us, as long as whatever it is you are advertising is compatible with what

I believe, I would be more than thrilled to help you launch an ad campaign as quickly as possible, because we are just as much in urgent need of your advertising dollars as we are in your donations.

So, send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com and put advertising in the subject line. Also, please remember, as I try to remind you every single day,

I do not want any of my listeners taking money out of what you have allotted for your typical gift to your church every

Sunday in order to give us a gift financially. Please don't cut into that budget of what you normally give to your church.

Also, if you're really struggling to survive and make ends meet, please wait until you are financially stable and back on your feet before you send us a financial gift.

Those two things are commands of God in Scripture providing for your church and your family.

Providing for Iron Sharpens Iron Radio is obviously not a command of God. But if you do love this show and you don't want it to go off the air, please,

I'm urging you, if you have been blessed by God financially above and beyond your ability to obey those two commands, providing for church and family, you have extra money collecting interest in the bank, you have extra money for benevolent, recreational, and trivial matters, please share some of that money with us if you want this program to continue to exist.

Go to ironsharpensironradio .com, click support, then click, click to donate now. Also, if you are not a member of a

Christ -honoring, biblically faithful, theologically solid, doctrinally sound church like Heritage Presbyterian Church in Cumming, Georgia, one of our most faithful financial supporters, no matter where on the planet

Earth you live, I may be able to help you find a church, as I have done with many people spanning the globe in our audience, sometimes even within minutes of where they live.

So if you are in that circumstance, you don't have a church home that is

Christ -honoring and biblically faithful, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com,

and put I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you could send in a question to Dr.

Nathaniel Darnell on the issue of a Christian looks at the elections through the eyes of the

Bible. We are continuing this theme in the second half of the broadcast. And Dr. Nathaniel Darnell, who received his

Juris Doctorate at Oak Brook College of Law, is a conservative Christian political activist in Georgia and a board member of the

Georgia Republican Assembly. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time to Iron Trump and Zion Radio, Dr.

Nathaniel Darnell. Hey, welcome. Oh, thank you so much for having me here.

This is Nathaniel Darnell from a load of Mason Dicks in mind with my wife, Abigail, next to me in our little baby patient coat.

And what an exciting last 24 hours it has been. I know your state has been heavily watched across the nation, the outcome of that election with the

U .S. Senate. Our state has also been getting a great deal of attention and apparently will continue to get a lot of attention going all the way to December 6th, as it is pretty clear that we are in a runoff between Hershel Walker and Raphael Warnock.

We're just excited to talk to you about this topic. It's important, like you've been saying with Dr. Moorcraft, for Christians to take every thought captive to the obedience of Christ.

That includes everything related to politics. Dr. Moorcraft, the last hour you were with him, he laid out some great presuppositions from the

Bible on how we should look at politics. And that's something me and my wife are very passionate about. We work in several different capacities in politics here in Georgia, like you mentioned, with the

Republican Party. My wife is on the board of Georgia Rights Life. She works closely with Ricardo Davis, who

I know you've had on the program before as well. I just saw him at a Bible conference in Knoxville, Tennessee.

He approached my Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio exhibitor's booth and recognized me immediately and gave me a very warm greeting and told me how much he loved my interview with him.

Yeah, your program is fantastic, Chris, and we're so grateful that you're on the air and you're having these great interviews and approaching these great topics, and it's a really honor, huge honor, to be on the program with you this morning, this evening.

Well, give us your rundown of what has taken place. Give us any updates that you may have that you didn't already say, and tell us how we as Christians should respond to this when we are reflecting upon everything that has occurred through biblical eyes.

Well, there's a lot of things going on, a lot of things that are in the works, and still some many things we haven't yet seen come to completion yet.

You know, they were expecting a huge red wave that turned into a red trickle.

A lot of the political pundits were predicting different outcomes than what we have seen, and I think that's just a reminder that, you know,

God governs the affairs of men. It's not the pundits that control the outcomes.

It's ultimately the Lord Jesus Christ who is sovereign. He sets up one. He raises up another, and so we need to trust in Him, and we can't have confidence.

I've had so many people reach out to me today and just express their anxiety that so many elections didn't turn out the way they'd hoped or certain things are still in suspense, and it's wonderful that we can have peace and trusting in God's sovereignty that He does raise up one, and He sets down another, and that's our peace and our hope.

All of that. But as Dr. Moorcraft, you know, was mentioning there in the last hour, we're pleased, by the way, to be members of his church,

Heritage Presbyterian. I've enjoyed learning from him over the years, and he did a great job presenting there.

But we are hoping that Hershel Walker will pull out a win in the end.

You know, appreciate how he's come out strong for the pro -life cause and against all exceptions for abortion.

He's been under attack because of certain things in his past that folks have told us he's repented of and gotten right before the

Lord a long time ago and made right in his life. Weren't there other things, though, that he said were absolutely fraudulent slanders?

Yes, there were many things that he just outright denied, and he unequivocally, was not with any hesitation or with any, you know, reluctance.

He was very clear in saying some of these things. One of these October surprises that we got, literally in October, which ought to cause us to be skeptical of the accusations.

Anytime somebody releases a last -minute accusation, like we saw with Judge Roy Moore a few years ago when he was attacked, you know, one month before his election was up, even though he had been a public figure for decades and had run for office statewide many times and been elected and was a controversial character that had garnered attention all across the country, somehow, out of the blue, these women came out and attacked him.

And it was just very, you know, very incredible. It was sad that that election got turned against him because of those accusations.

And thankfully, you know, Judge Moore ended up winning that defamation lawsuit a few months ago, which

I think was a vindication for him. But that's the problem, is, you know, in the short term, the outcome may be very hurtful for an election, and the person may not be able to clear up their good name for several years after the election is over.

That's all that matters to the Democrats and the Liberals and the other God -haters in politics, is how do we win that election, whatever it takes.

Now, having been raised from childhood in, at,

I should say, Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, I'm assuming that you share the theology of Dr.

Joe Moorecraft. I'm assuming that you are a believer, a firm believer in the sovereignty of God over all things, and you are a solid believer that God is the one who raises up leaders, and sometimes they are wonderful and godly leaders who serve their citizens well, and sometimes they are dishonest, they're liars, they're bloodthirsty.

They want to give women the freedom to murder as many babies as they choose, even for the most trivial of issues.

No reason is a good reason, but they don't care what the reason is.

It could be that the woman doesn't want to gain weight, and, you know, that's a good enough reason for them.

But God sometimes, as I just said, raises up those kinds of leaders, tyrants, dictators.

Throughout history there have been many far more barbaric and bloodthirsty than we have experienced even in our day, so in your opinion, why does

God do that? You know, I think sometimes

God raises up wicked people to test us and to discipline us. The Bible talks about how He chastens

His people sometimes through wicked men, and so that ought to be a call for us to repent of our sins and not just look at, you know, human political activity, but to ask ourselves, you know, why did

God intend this? What do we need to repent of? What do we need to do to make right in our lives before the

Lord so He can bless us as a nation once again? You mentioned the abortion issue, and that's definitely one that's very near and dear to our family, where my wife and I are working heavily with some different legislators here.

We actually had Jeff Durbin from Apologia come into Georgia and meet with some of us who are political pro -life activists and legislators to talk about legislation.

Yeah, Jeff's a good friend of mine. Yeah, he does a lot of great work, has a lot of great material on his show.

I know you guys have a lot of things in common, and he is working with us here in Georgia. Even though he's from Arizona, he's working with us here in Georgia to try to get legislation that would completely abolish abortion.

It is part of a coalition effort with several pro -life organizations, including Georgia Rights Alliance and the Georgia Republican Assembly and others.

But yeah, you know, the heartbeat bill was passed here in Georgia, you know, and everybody thinks abortion is over in Georgia, but it's not.

The heartbeat bill has many exceptions, like Dr. Moorcraft was talking about. These exceptions are unbiblical.

They're eugenic exceptions that say, well, if the baby was deceived in incest or is deceived in rape or if it's 15 weeks, you know, at the time of the heartbeat, you know, it's okay to murder your baby.

Or if there's, you know, this vague fetal abnormality, you can kill the baby. And that's even beyond heartbeat or even beyond fetal pain.

You can murder the baby virtually almost up to the time of the baby's birth. That exception is allowed in Georgia law.

And you ultimately allow the doctor to be the one to decide, the abortionist gets to be the one to decide if he can hear a heartbeat, which is kind of a conflict of interest because he makes money performing abortions.

So in Georgia here, we've got Alabama and Tennessee have more or less shut down all their abortion clinics.

And we have people coming over the state line to have their abortions in Georgia. So there's still a lot of work to be done.

My wife will tell you about getting rid of abortion here.

And that's what we are in the midst of right now. If you could make sure that you're speaking closely into whatever device you're using, because you're very faint in the distance, just a little.

All right. Yeah, well, Nathaniel and I were privileged to be down at the

Georgia Capitol on Thursday. We were delivering petitions. Georgia Right in Life and several other organizations had collected thousands of petitions.

And we were able to deliver those personally at the governor's office. And it was just this very beautiful moment where we had some local pastors come and just brought a message, a very sort of Esther -like appeal to the governor on behalf of the lives of the preborn who are being threatened by one of Georgia's 13 open abortion mills.

And we've been praying for him to convene a special legislative session to abolish abortion completely.

But it's going to be a very uphill battle now that he has been reelected. It's going to continue to be uphill.

He said he's not interested in putting any more restrictions on abortion than he already has and hoping to abolish abortion completely.

But I'll tell you, one of the challenges that we're facing is that people kind of have this stereotypical, this stereotype in their minds of what a woman, a pregnant expectant mother seeking abortion is like.

And they kind of tend to think that it's all the exact same. Like, it's always a 16 -year -old.

It's always her first pregnancy. And the truth is that, I mean, that happens sometimes.

Sometimes she's coerced. Sometimes she's very young. But then there's also the other really ugly side.

And it's really a depravity issue. And so the challenge that we're facing is trying to convince thousands of Georgians that we need to abolish abortion and that we need equal justice for all of the pre -born.

And that means that you would treat them, you know, criminalize abortion the same way you would criminalize murder. And that's the challenge we're facing here in Georgia.

And we definitely appreciate your prayers. Now, let me ask you a question. Have you ever spoken with a woman who is a feminist, pro -abortionist, pro -infanticide, even though they don't want to use that term themselves, obviously, who has had, as you have had, a child?

It is mind -boggling that there is any, or that there are any, women who are pro -abortion who have carried a baby to full term and delivered it, knowing how that baby moves within their stomachs, the kicking, everything else that is going on as it develops.

It is absolutely astonishing to me that any woman could go through that and rejoice in giving birth and say, yes,

I believe a woman should still have the right to murder that. Have you ever had a conversation about that with a pro -abortionist woman?

Yeah. In fact, I had a conversation last year with a woman who was very angry. And she came up to me and she was very, very angry.

And she said, apparently, as the story unfolded, she put her child up for adoption.

This is a mother with other children, put one child up for adoption. And she came to me angry and said she wished she had had an abortion because of the emotional trauma to her from having put the child up for adoption.

Wow. And I was, yeah, very shocked and floored by that. But I think sometimes people tend to think that women, because we're so feminine, and I don't know if it's a feminine charm or what, but sometimes people forget that women are depraved, too, and that we're in need of redemption.

We're capable of such things as murder. Well, I don't need to be reminded of that every time I see

Nancy Pelosi. That is enough of a reminder. Yeah, absolutely.

You know, with elective abortion, we see that when the laws of a state are in conflict with the law of God, it actually encourages sin and helps people justify it.

Because, I mean, it's legal, right? And so when civil law actually mirrors the law of God, such as if we had abolition in place here in Georgia, it furthers the gospel by convincing people of sin and revealing their need for salvation.

And of course, not every sin in the Bible is a crime, but we know that murder certainly is. And so I think sometimes

Christians miss an opportunity to advance the gospel if we're kind of complacent and don't really care and apathetic about the murder of the preborn.

Now, how do you respond, and this could be an answer that either or both of you can give, to the tired, worn -out response that pro -infanticide individuals give to those of us who want abortion abolished?

They will say, you people do not care about babies after they're born through their childhood, through adulthood, till the time of their death.

You don't care about them enough to financially take over the responsibilities for raising that child if you want to force a woman to give birth to it, who would rather terminate that pregnancy, which obviously we know that's a very pretty and polite way of saying butchering a baby.

But how do you respond to people when they say that? You know, that is a response we hear a lot, that if you're not willing to use the government to force people to, through their tax dollars, pay to support that baby, then you're not really pro -life, and that's a false accusation.

There's a lot of ways you can answer that, I think, but having a biblical worldview and understanding the principle of jurisdiction, that there are different jurisdictional spheres, like Abraham Kuyper talked about in his lifetime, and not everything is the jurisdiction of the civil government.

The care of children is primarily the responsibility of the family, of the mother and the father in the

Word of God, and the state is not supposed to step in and interfere with that.

They don't want a family, though, these people who are murdering their babies. Yeah, these people who are murdering their babies, and the

Bible says that murder is something the state should step in and stop. It doesn't mean that you can force other people to pay for the baby.

We have families, and we have extended families. We have churches that are able to step in and help, and voluntary charity.

The Bible says God loves a cheerful giver, so we don't think people should be coerced into cleaning up other people's messes, but we should have compassion as Christians to voluntarily help where we can.

There's a lot of people I know who are willing to adopt, who want to adopt, who would be very eager to adopt, and they've made it very bureaucratic and hard for people to adopt, in many cases, and expensive, and we could make that a lot easier, to be sure.

But we ultimately should not expect that if two people are irresponsible with their sexual activity outside of marriage or something like that, that other people have to clean up their mess for them.

They should not abort and murder that baby, and if they bring the baby to full term, they can put it up for adoption, and many people will be willing to care for that child.

But really understanding jurisdictions, the Bible gives civil government the authority to stop murderers.

It does not give the civil government the authority to force other people to pay for other people's children through socialism.

That's a violation of the principle, now shall not steal, now shall not covet. Now, isn't it true that there are so many

Christians out there who want to adopt anyway, who, unfortunately, because of the bureaucracy that leftists have created in adoption, and making things really difficult to adopt, a lot more difficult and a lot more expensive than it should be, this slows down the process a great deal.

But aren't there countless numbers of Christians out there who want to adopt anyway? There are, and the waiting list is very long.

Yeah, and so, I mean, personally, I would love to see the Christian church not only reach out to children that need adopted, but also reach out to the families.

So if you have a mother who's concerned about not being able to provide for her child, or you have a couple who are maybe still in school,

I would love to see more Christians reach out and sort of adopt that family. Instead of pulling the child away and pretending like God made a mistake in allowing this couple to conceive this child at this time,

I would love to see us accept the sovereignty of God and say, okay, God gave this couple this child. What can we do to help this couple be responsible and share the gospel with them and disciple them, and maybe adopt that small family instead of just adopting the child?

I think that would be more in keeping, actually, with God's love for the family, and more in keeping with a sort of biblical worldview than just thinking about the children.

We have Bob—go ahead. I was going to say, part of our mission in our family ministry has been really helping our fellow

Christians recognize that God is the lawgiver, and that He established the standard of right and wrong, and it was interesting to me.

I was on the college of a Christian campus—on their campus doing pro -life outreach a couple years back, and I talked to some students for a long time who were professing

Christians, and they were so ignorant of any concept of jurisdiction and what the civil government ought to do, they couldn't bring themselves to see civil government as doing justice, because in their mind, with their government school indoctrination leading up to this

Christian college experience, they really thought that the role of civil government was to give you stuff—to give you free stuff.

And after talking to them for a long time, I realized that justice was not even within their definition of what civil government ought to do.

And I was so grieved by that, and I came away thinking, wow, we really need more

Christians to be talking about justice, and being able to define it from the Word of God, and be able to talk about the distinction there, that civil government bears the sword and does justice, and we as individuals do charity.

And that whole concept was really lost, and I think it's lost on a lot of young people today, which might have actually led to the election results that we saw yesterday.

We have Bobby in Hartsdale, New York, who has a question. What has been your most effective method when preaching the gospel and trying to convince a woman not to kill her baby?

Well, there's a lot of different opinions there about what you should do and how you should do it.

So I really think that people tend to assume that a woman who is an expectant mother about to have an abortion is different from everybody else, and in fact,

I think she's at root very much the same. Like, she just wants ease, and convenience, and pleasure, and sees the child as an inconvenience.

And so I think she just needs the same gospel we all need, which is to repent of sin and trust Christ. And I've been encouraged to see some of the opportunities folks have had here in Georgia, especially in Atlanta, outside of the abortion mills.

They're just preaching the gospel, and they see women change their minds, and often be even converted, or at least feel a sense of conviction of sin.

And we rejoice in that when we see that happen. Now, there are some who are involved in abortion protest—I mean, those who would agree with us that abortion should be abolished—who have a demeanor about them that has given a bad reputation to those who are passionate about preserving the life of the unborn.

They might be yelling and screaming at these women. Now, we understand the outrage.

We understand the righteous indignation. But is that kind of approach appropriate, in your mind, for truly biblically literate and informed

Christians to be yelling at the top of their lungs? And I'm not saying that it's wrong to amplify somebody's voice, but I'm talking about screaming at somebody in a manner that appears to be just fueled by hatred.

Yeah, you know, you see that depicted in some films that have been released recently on the pro -life subject, you know, people just yelling and screaming in a very condemning way, you know, baby killer and so forth.

And I think that that is truth out of balance. It is true that what they're considering doing is murder, but we ought to try to plea with them and try to persuade them to reconsider and not just make accusations in a kind of condescending, holier -than -thou kind of way.

And that seems to be the tone that some people have adopted. I think other people have been falsely accused of adopting that tone who are simply trying to speak the truth and remind folks that, you know, this is murder.

There is, within the pro -life community, a certain fear of using the M word. They don't want to call it murder.

They may say that abortion is bad and don't do it, but they don't want to actually say that those who do do it are murderers.

And even if it's the doctor or the father, and especially if we're talking about the woman, no, please don't say that she's a murderer.

But the Bible does call it murder. And, you know, we need to gently remind folks of that truth and not leave it there.

You know, give them a hope for repentance and hopefully prevent them from having the abortion.

And if they've had abortions, help them to know there's grace and forgiveness. But society needs to acknowledge that that is murder, as God's word says.

So I think this is one area where someone would say, well, politics is downstream of culture.

But I believe it's also true that culture is downstream of politics.

So in our politics, I was looking at a lot of the constitutional amendment questions that passed or failed around the country yesterday.

And the way they word it is all about reproductive health and reproductive freedom. And I think to some degree, our politics, our people in political power have influenced the culture for evil.

And I think that's something we see that happen in the Bible in 1 Kings 14 and 15. You know, Jeroboam who did sin and made

Israel to sin. And so we see clearly how kings and people in leadership positions can and did use their positions within leadership to lead people away from God and away from his law.

I think another example of that in modern times would be the LGBT movement. You know, they didn't like slowly, slowly, you know, increase in cultural influence and then finally see some victory on the political side.

They see victory in certain leadership positions in politics and then thereby change culture from the top down.

And so on one hand, yes, we are seeing that politics is influenced by the culture, but and, you know, it's an outcome of broken families, weak churches.

But on the other hand, part of why we have broken families and weak churches and women walking into abortion facilities and thinking it's totally okay is because of those wicked leaders who have tossed down a reward, laziness, irresponsibility, promiscuity, you know, extra handouts for single mothers.

Those sort of things. They reward homosexuality. That, you know, Joe Biden was meeting with a trans person just recently and giving them a pedestal.

And then, of course, indoctrination in the schools. So I think we see how that they are part of the problem.

And so I think it would be a great mistake for us as Christians to withdraw from politics and say, well, we're just going to focus on changing the culture.

And eventually it'll spill over into politics when actually politics is a vehicle for influencing the culture.

Well, we have to go to our final break right now. It's going to be a lot more brief than the last break. If you have a question that you'd like to ask of our guests, please send it in pretty quickly because we're rapidly running out of time.

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Give us your first name, at least your city and state and your country of residence. Don't go away. We'll be right back. Authentic Christianity by Dr.

Joseph Morecraft. It is much more than an exposition of the larger catechism. It is a thoroughly researched work that utilizes biblical exegesis as well as historical and systematic theology.

Dr. Morecraft is pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia. And I urge everyone looking for a biblically faithful church in that area to visit that fine congregation.

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Yeah, thank you, sir. Again, thank you for having us on your program, Chris. It's been a real honor. It's a great program.

I think the last idea that we would like to just communicate to fellow Christians out there is that we need more

Christians in politics. I know there's the false idea going on that politics is secular,

God doesn't have anything to do with politics. I remember running into—I used to work at State Capitol as a young man growing up, and I would encounter professing

Christians who said, you know, I check my Bible when I walk in the Capitol building. It has nothing to do with God.

And that's a false idea that I think has been slowly been dismantling. We're even seeing now Dr. John MacArthur, who used to kind of promote that idea, once he saw how the politics was getting into the church and trying to shut churches down,

I think he's less inclined to reinforce that idea. And Christians are awakening to that need to be involved in politics.

If we're not involved in politics, the bad guys are the ones that are defining the terms and helping people to look at it the way they do.

And humanism believes that politics is the alternative savior. All you've got to do is read the second

Humanist Manifesto, where it clearly says, there is no God, therefore we must save ourselves.

And how do we want to save ourselves? Statism, global one -world government, abortion, homosexuality, destroy marriage, et cetera.

And so this is a false god that we are fighting in politics. And in order to get people to not try to seek salvation from the state, they need to look to Jesus Christ.

And we've got to fight in this arena. Anything else you'd like to add, Abby? Yeah, I'd just like to add that a great way to do that is just organizing your church and the fellow

Christians in your community. We saw some folks up in northwest Georgia defeat a local mask mandate last year.

We see some folks who are organizing parents, and they found out that Planned Parenthood's sex -ed curriculum was about to be taught in their school.

And so I think if you just pay attention to one level of government at a time, or one issue at a time, get involved, organize your local community, start an email list, and that would be a great way for folks to make an impact.

You can't do everything, but you can do something. And I think God called us, and we have a mandate from God to promote a society that's characterized by justice.

Well, tell our listeners how they can get in touch with you. How do they get in touch with us?

Yes, your website, etc. Well, we have a foundation that we've been working on together, the

Every Thought Captive Foundation, or the etcfoundation .org. That's one of the projects we're working on.

We're also very heavily involved in the Georgia Republican Assembly. There are Republican Assemblies all over the country.

There's one in Pennsylvania, and that's a great outlet for Christians to get involved in the Republican Assembly organization, because they help to hold

Republicans accountable to their professed principles. And then Georgia Rights Live.

There's Rights Live organizations all over the country. GeorgiaRightsLive .org, I believe, is the website for that.

GeorgiaRightsLive .org or Personhood Alliance on the national level. If someone's in another state, you can go to Personhood Alliance.

PersonhoodAlliance .com. Yeah, that is the national counterpart to Georgia Rights Live, and they are promoting personhood, you know, the idea that life begins at conception, which starts at fertilization, completing equal protection under the wall for all preborn, no exceptions, because God forms us in the womb, and from the moment of that fertilization, we have our own unique DNA, and so we believe that God protects that life from that moment of fertilization.

Amen. And are you two available to speak at events at churches and schools and other places?

Absolutely. We'd be honored to do so. We've done that kind of thing before. We've spoken for a number of different political gatherings and church gatherings.

We actually had a great medical conference we were a part of with Dr. Joe Moorcraft and one of the

Christian medical doctors down here in Georgia named Dr. Ret Orgeron, who's putting on another medical conference, which draws audiences from all over the country.

It's just applying, you know, biblical thinking to medicine, and there was an intersection between medicine and politics that's on a lot of people's minds lately, especially with all the lockdowns and vaccine mandates, and we got to address that subject on that panel, and so we're happy to participate in other things like that around the country, and we've certainly done a lot of that around the state of Georgia.

We'd be honored to. Well, I thank you so much for being my guest today, and I want to thank everybody who listened, especially those who took the time to write.

I apologize to anybody whose question could not be read and answered due to the time restraints that we had, but I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater