90 Minutes of Open Phones on the Dividing Line

Alpha & Omega Ministries iconAlpha & Omega Ministries

93 views

I started off with a few comments on the coming mask mandates, etc. Then, we took quite a variety of questions today from our callers! We discussed head coverings and Michael Heiser's odd views on 1 Cor. 11; Hebrews 1:10 and its citation of Psalm 102; angels and demons today; how to translate the Greek term θέλω (thelo); and finally a discussion of justification, confession, and the Lord's Supper.

Comments are disabled.

00:31
Well greetings welcome to the dividing line we have we we used to call it open phones, but it's not really
00:39
Not even using a phone line anymore. I don't know what it is. It's I Don't know
00:46
I miss phones I Miss having eight seven seven seven five three three three two one.
00:53
I think was the number something like that You can hang up on people you really can't all you can do now is just disconnect it's not nearly as fun as Hanging up on people and being hung up upon there was something
01:10
Final about About being hung up on I guess I don't know But we're taking your calls
01:17
We'll get to them in just a second. I Didn't really dive into it.
01:26
I'm not gonna really dive into it right now Though this would be the safest time to do so But you've all heard it you're hearing it on All sorts of social media platforms and news outlets the coming mask mandates now
01:52
For a while I Would repost or retweet?
01:59
Studies especially after the musk takeover The studies that I had been collecting and that would were coming out demonstrating that the lockdowns
02:12
Did nothing to mitigate? the spread of the virus That if you did not have multiple
02:22
Comorbidities if you were a Healthy young person there was absolutely nothing for you to worry about it was no more dangerous than the seasonal flu was
02:34
Studies have demonstrated that the forced medical procedures and the drugs were used
02:43
To treat people the speed with which people were put on ventilators That that was the primary reason for the the deaths in older people that it was the protocol
02:53
That killed people not the virus And so as as the study started coming out in 2022
03:05
I would I started collecting them figuring someday. This is it's gonna come back again.
03:11
I knew that the reason that you know the mask mandates finally went away and Stopped talking about getting everybody inoculated even though they continued to push that kind of stuff
03:26
That it was it was burnout it was We need to shift people's attention away from this for a while to bring it back again
03:36
To make it work again. It only works for a certain period of time. So let's do climate panic for now and And Reconsolidate our position
03:47
Come up with a new variant and then it will be back and we'll see how much farther we can push this And that's what
03:54
I've been saying all along I've said it repeatedly and I've been living in light of that A lot of folks look at me and they go, you know, it'd be a lot easier if you'd get to g3 if you flew
04:09
And that's true it it would be What why?
04:19
Well, yeah I Have no fear of flying.
04:25
I flew a hundred and sixty -five thousand miles in 2019. I Visited Russia and Ukraine and South Africa and Australia Spent like two months in London I obviously don't have any problems with That methodology of transport, but we had made the decision
04:53
Part of it was just simply, you know ministry for example on this trip Coming up September 5th,
05:01
I leave September 5th few days into that. I'll be stopping in Amarillo and I've stopped in Amarillo many times.
05:08
I know the KOA there like the back of my hand I know the roads going to it the roads going from it and Though ironically,
05:16
I've never bought anything in their store, which is very strange. It's a nice store But now
05:21
I'm making contact with churches in Amarillo So I'll actually be speaking one of the nights that I'm in Amarillo on my way all the way to Pennsylvania For the debate with dr.
05:32
Gregory Coles The more I'm getting into this the more
05:39
Excited I am about the topic and the impact that hopefully it will be able to have long -term in regards to How the church responds to the gay
05:52
Christian movement the gay celibate Christian movement Which is still dependent upon fundamental definitions of identity
06:05
And Honestly, I think a fundamental denial that first Corinthians 611 really has
06:14
Validity, but we won't get into that right now. Anyways Point being
06:21
I mentioned to Daryl Who posted on Twitter yesterday and he had a lot of people come back after him about this
06:33
He said if they if they put the mask mandates back on I'm canceling my flying travel
06:39
I'll find another way to get there and You know, my response was yeah,
06:46
I actually for the first time sent a picture of my rig And I said welcome to my world
06:57
Guys if you need if you need any advice if you need to know something about Grand design
07:04
Jayco Koa is good. Sam tires hitches solar panels
07:15
You you name it been there done that I'm at I'm at around 40 ,000 miles of RV pulling now and We can we can tell you what works and what doesn't
07:29
Why you need to diesel not a gas -powered engine Which I didn't know I Did not know
07:36
I had never owned a diesel I did not know going down a hill a diesel is gonna give you significantly more engine braking power than a gas engine possibly can even pretend to Who who's gonna know that unless you rich didn't know that all rich had ever pulled was a boat that's not nearly as heavy as My 10 ,000 pound fifth wheel so Anyway, all of that to say if y 'all need some need some advice, let me know
08:07
But the fact is Nothing has changed. In fact things have gotten worse not better as far as who's in charge with the with the steel of elections both big ones and Midterms And they need to have mail -in ballots.
08:29
They that's how they do it That's how they stuff the ballot boxes. You watch you saw the mules you you watch with your own eyes
08:37
People going from place to place to place stuffing boxes with ballots You saw it and yet people just ignore it like well,
08:47
I don't know, you know, maybe it just has a big family Oh, come on Give me a break
08:54
Nothing's changed. They were just they were just consolidating their position and they're back and they're it's all they've got keep people panicked and Try to establish tyranny as quickly as possible while people are panicked and man.
09:11
I'll tell you I Still see people wearing masks outdoors in the heat in Phoenix where Where where any coronavirus that escaped from someone's mouth would be zapped ultraviolet radiation in three seconds
09:30
God but they're still out there and it's sad and they will submit and as long as they submit and then other people give in and submit and Here in Phoenix, we're gonna have some real challenges.
09:44
We had a Rhino Republican governor in 2020 -2021 now we have we don't have a governor.
09:51
We have a fake Katie Hobbs Oversaw her own election
09:57
The the corruption in Maricopa County and the corruption, Arizona I don't know how we've made
10:03
Chicago look like a a place where things are done, right, but we have and so we're gonna have
10:13
We're gonna have lockdowns like I don't know what once they we're gonna be like, California and We're not closing down our church so You see the mugshots of all the attorneys
10:26
You know, by the way, that is just such a it's astonishing to me You do realize this is straight out of the
10:35
Marxist Leninist Maoist Playbook, right? You elect you you go after Any attorneys that would dare to defend someone that the state doesn't like that way they can't get representation you keep everybody going the same direction that way and Though that picture you saw from Georgia should make you scream or weep in sorrow for the end of a constitutional republic because it's
11:11
It's amazing. It is absolutely amazing what's going on out there. So anyway Yep, here we go
11:18
It's it's gonna be it's gonna be interesting. I'm looking at the ATEM over here We have an ATEM mini pro and this is the this is the one that will that goes with me, right?
11:28
Okay. So here's the yeah, you can sort of see the ATEM you can
11:34
There she is. She's not I Wonder why she's not on I mean doesn't need to be on but I That's what
11:43
I figured because the power of things plugged in and when it's in the unit, that's how you turn it on and off is
11:50
Yeah, okay, all right gotcha and that'll be going with me and That's how we'll be running stuff here just in a matter of weeks we've been getting work done on the truck and Got word today.
12:04
I need to go pick up The RV tomorrow and get her parked again
12:11
That'll be fun Back backing a 35 -foot long unit into a very narrow space is
12:22
Always an enjoyable experience I Watch some of these professional truckers and my hat is off to you
12:28
That one guy where he takes a truck and he gets it into that that that one spot
12:35
Have you seen that one Astonishing I mean hats off.
12:40
There is skills. There is skills I don't have those skills So I just do it very slowly and very carefully and I've not damaged it ever and I want to keep that that record
12:49
All right. All right. We've enough talking on my part Let's we've got I don't know where these calls are coming from and there ain't no how many you got two -four -six -eight -nine
13:04
Okay nine So we will see just so everybody knows if you're still trying to get in I just locked to the room
13:12
We have more than enough callers than we can handle nine is yeah Probably gonna
13:18
I could get those. All right, let's Try I will try to be brief To try to get to me as possible.
13:25
Let's talk to Blake. Hi Blake. Hey, dr.
13:30
White. Can you hear me? Yes, sir Fantastic Yes, sir 11
13:41
Pretty much the the three main views that I know of have to do with like a conventional view that woman
13:47
Okay, did did something get lost there? Oh Am I okay? I think I think you cut off because no one knows what you're talking about.
13:55
Oh Sorry, hello head coverings first Corinthians 11. Can you hear me now? Uh -huh okay, fantastic, so Essentially I want to know what the correct view is and what your view is on these things, but I Also know at least like three different views
14:11
One of them is the conventional view women ought to have their hair covered a different view where that was a sort of local
14:18
Cultural concern but then also a view that was popularized by dr. Michael Heiser as far as there was these first century
14:27
Scientific theories that had this association between women's hair and sexually explicit things
14:35
Essentially, I want to know what your view on these different views are but then also with that dr.
14:40
Michael Heiser view I'm curious if that ends up being a legitimate view How how do extra biblical studies like these as far as like Greek science in the first century?
14:51
Like how do those sorts of things end up? Informing our understanding of the sufficiency of Scripture or how do we allow extra biblical historical scholarship to impact our doctrine things like that Recently I Was directed to that Heiser article.
15:09
I didn't read it so I can't really comment on it, but someone who had filled me in on on the basics and said while it's it's
15:18
Fascinatingly argued that the only way you could actually hold it is If you were willing to promote the idea that the
15:26
Apostle Paul was promoting scientific silliness as the basis of his exhortation to the
15:34
Church of Corinth and There are lots and lots and lots of New Testament scholars who would have any problem with that because they don't they don't believe in the consistency of New Testament Books, they would believe
15:48
Paul contradicted Paul Paul can be wrong about this Paul was was wrong about that and James was right about this.
15:54
And so if you don't have a Overriding Starting point that Would reflect for example
16:05
Jesus his own perspective on the nature of Scripture when he quotes from the Psalms David said by the
16:11
Holy Spirit That much of New Testament scholarship just doesn't start there today.
16:17
It's it's very rationalistic along those lines and So as he had said To me and I'll go ahead and say it was
16:26
Jeff Durbin, um, Jeff said He said, you know, it's Fascinatingly argued but it would require you to fundamentally abandon any meaningful view of Scripture as being divine in its origin
16:42
I I know that dr. Heiser passed away not too long ago, but I think most people who
16:50
Would put Heiser into especially the transcript bar now at a omen org
16:56
But even if you put it in the regular search engine would see that over the years 99 .9
17:03
% of everything I've said about dr. Heiser was negative Negative in regards to his interpretation of Psalm 82 negative in regards to his exaltation of the any the
17:16
Anton I seen Anton I seen father's ancient Near Eastern text and Negative as to his anti -reformed stance as well which was really troubling because it sort of demonstrated a
17:31
Major area of In accuracy and his understanding of certain theological realities, but anyways, so as far as That particular theory and perspective is concerned yeah, the
17:49
People that would be willing to go that direction generally do not have either a functional or a confessional commitment to the idea
18:01
That This is intended to be a
18:08
Consistent divine revelation not that does not mean That you're ignoring the different kinds of literature.
18:16
That doesn't not mean that You don't take into consideration
18:23
Changes in language, for example the the Hebrew of Moses is different than the
18:32
Hebrew of Malachi because there's been a lot of evolution in language since the between the two
18:40
There's different context of For the Tanakh the Torah the Nevi 'im the Ketuvim there.
18:46
There's that's primarily to the people of Israel New Testament It's it's for the world
18:52
So there's contextual differences there there is the question a vitally important question of Yeah, Corinth was a mess.
19:02
I mean religiously it was like Salt Lake City And so which if you don't know about Salt Lake City is a mess religiously and so you have a
19:14
Background to the questions that are being asked because Paul's answering specific questions that have been sent to him and so it's appropriate to Look at what would the
19:26
Corinthians What might have informed some of the questions they were having so it's not wrong to go.
19:34
Well, there was this theory about hair and Certain bodily fluids and things like that It's not improper to be aware of that what is improper is to go and Paul may have just believed it and just repeated it and Left us with a bunch of stuff that we keep copying today, but it's completely irrelevant to us so those are those a lot of the issues that go into that last part of your of your question and that's why and I've said this many times on the program a person who believes in the sufficiency of Scripture is in the small minority today when we're talking about major Quote -unquote
20:20
Christian seminaries and Denominations if you believe in the sufficiency of Scripture if you believe that God gave us exactly this and no more than this and that he
20:38
Expended supernatural energy to bring it into existence to preserve it and to make sure that we know it and That it took time for that to happen
20:50
But that we are able not in a simplistic fashion but in an appropriate fashion to look at all right, here's
21:01
Genesis chapter 50 and Then we're able to take what's in Genesis chapter 50 and it does have theological and revelational relevance to Jeremiah chapter 23, which by the way, it does
21:16
I just happen to open it there. I'm putting the These these ribbons back where they belong having died the pages
21:24
And then that has relevance as the background to Paul's teaching in say
21:30
Romans 9 or Romans 11 Etc, etc. So there is a canonical consistency and a canonical message
21:38
It's not Simplistic it's not what you have with IFB folks
21:48
Saying well when our words used the first time that's his definition throughout the Bible and all this kind of absurd silliness and numerology and all that kind of nutcasiness stuff
21:59
It comes from studying intertextuality the relationship between the
22:05
Hebrew Old Testament and the Greek New Testament The relationship between the
22:10
Greek translation of the Old Testament and the New Testament all these things are relevant and important But they can't be taken to the point
22:20
Where they are taken by most people To where you can simply go after Paul contradicted Paul Paul contradicted
22:26
James. Nobody really understood what I what? Ezekiel was saying so they can do whatever they want with Ezekiel this kind of stuff
22:33
Which unfortunately fills a lot of the commentaries today So back to the issue the problem was first Corinthians chapter 11 is that it's it's not just three different options
22:44
There are many I recently read Gordon fees Treatment of this in his commentary on first Corinthians and I was struck once again with the fact that this is probably the most
23:02
Difficult Text in the New Testament to be able to Come to any kind of when you say what's the proper understanding?
23:10
Well, I have no earthly idea and nobody has anybody else what what needs to be recognized is that even when you dig into the text and It says for example, but every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying
23:29
Shames her head now it starts off by talking it uses the term Kefale Kefale means head but the problem is verse 3
23:42
Says that Christ is the Kefale of every man and The man or the husband
23:54
Do we translate on air as man Gunai costs as woman or do we do husband and wife?
24:03
What's the context here? But Kefale is used there as well. And so Christ is the head of every man.
24:10
Well Kefale. What is That that's obviously not the same thing as head and yet hair
24:20
Covering is using Kefale in a physical sense And not just a metaphorical sense with when it says
24:27
Christ is the head of every man so Fi lays out
24:35
All these different possible ways of going okay, if we if we understand head here in a literal sense
24:43
Then we can take it this way this way in this way But if it's meant in a metaphorical sense, then you gotta go this way this way this way and there's permutations at each one
24:53
And There's so many complications, you know when I was in seminary
24:59
And there is a discussion of this. I don't know why I remember it but They the very popular theory that you did sort of mention in passing was that because of the number of temple prostitutes and And Some source and I've read other sources say there's no evidence of this and other sources that repeat it
25:27
But some source says that the temple prostitutes shaved their head which would make sense And so if you have house churches, which is all you have they're not building buildings at this point in time if you see a bunch of Women with shaved heads and it mentions shaved heads in verse 5
25:46
So if you have a bunch of women with shaved heads going into a certain house what's that gonna say to the entire culture around Corinth, which it wouldn't say in Ephesus or it might not say in numerous other cities and So in seminary the idea was well, this is meant to make all the women the same
26:04
So that it's not causing scandal to the church. And so it has specific reference and so the application that we are to make is
26:11
And then you you make application to whatever your situation might be in whatever culture you're in That you're seeking you're seeking to not bring reproach upon the name of Christ by simple fashions a lot of reformed people have the the truly reformed and and that's a that's a phrase
26:33
I use of reformed folks who Believe you need to cross every
26:40
T and dot every I and Therefore That there tends to be a focus
26:48
By certain TR folks. That's not Texas Receptus has nothing to do with at all truly reformed folks where you get a group of beliefs that end up coming together which include head coverings and Exclusive psalmody and sometimes no instruments in church that's frequently connected to the exclusive psalmody aspect to and This becomes how you just even though it doesn't represent where the reformers necessarily were in a number of areas
27:20
This is how you really become truly reformed you're not really there until you do this
27:26
Then there's another article I read recently That has a very fascinating it's connected to Cessation ism to a reformed understanding of cessation ism and Fundamentally the the theory behind it was that What's going on in Corinth is not normative for the rest of the church
27:55
Because you have women praying and prophesying Now what what?
28:02
The problem is here. Are we talking about praying and prophesying only in the church? Or we're talking about at all times.
28:11
It seems that first Corinthians 11 is talking about in the gathering of the church But you have and I don't have the answer
28:21
I To all this I just know where the where the questions are you have other things that are addressed to the church as it's gathered together, but you have evidence of Well women are to keep silent in the church.
28:36
That's in first Corinthians But then you have women prophesying in the church.
28:42
You can't do that silently So what's going on? So this other? Theory is that this was only during the apostolic period and It's in fulfillment of the prophecy in Joel Where when the
28:58
Spirit is poured out? your young men and young women will prophesy and That this is to be connected together, which is also first Corinthians With the signs that are being given to the people of Israel that The kingdom in essence has been taken away from them and given to the
29:18
Gentiles so the cessationist argument is tongues I Will speak to them in the tongues of other other peoples
29:29
Was meant that was meant to be in the mind of the Jew. Here is the prophecy
29:36
God's judgment is coming upon you and the kingdom has been taken away. It's been given to someone else and This understanding of head coverings says it's basically the same thing that there was a period of time where you had this broader
29:52
Expression of spiritual gifts that included women but only in two things and this is what's weird
29:58
Because if you're into the head covering stuff There's only two contexts in which it said that the woman is to have her head covered
30:07
While praying or prophesying and of course we think of our modern services and the you know
30:13
Women can be praying while you know during all sorts of parts of the service no, it would seem to be what's being said is if the woman is leading in prayer and Is prophesying to the group?
30:27
Preaching to the group then she's to have her head covered Well, none of the reformed churches
30:34
I know have anybody doing that so I don't know why he's covering their head because that's the only thing that says they're supposed if you're doing that then you cover your head and Fee mentioned this and other people talk about The the fact that they're and this is interesting it might have modern application that this was meant to Not allow for a
31:04
Confusion of gender roles in the church So the wife is not to be usurping her husband's position.
31:12
So she wears that sign of authority when doing this Otherwise you end up with a destruction of the male -female roles that are clearly
31:25
Indicated in the page of Scripture and the reason that this does not become normative later on is because of the cessationist argument and Hence, basically after 8070 isn't relevant anymore
31:38
No matter what you do you do have to deal with the fact that the praying and the prophesying how women doing that okay, it's happening in Corinth and So you have one book of the
31:54
New Testament written to the most troubled book I'm not troubled church of the New Testament that clearly has all sorts of background stuff that we don't have that simply is not sufficient to establish some kind of universal necessary New Testament observation, it's not found in the old
32:18
There's no there's there's no fulfillment of law There's no that this wasn't something that existed on the
32:24
Old Covenant and now it exists under the New Covenant There's a New Covenant restriction along these lines that in regards to dress for women based on The most difficult text that we can know of in the
32:37
New Testament That's always troubled me to be perverse with you. So There are some thoughts
32:50
There like I said There's entire books on the subject. I Know lots of reformed folks, but I'll be honest with you.
32:57
Let me just be straightforward here the vast majority not all there
33:05
Apology I had a period of time years ago where this became an issue and Basically, and I've been informed
33:12
I wasn't there at the time. So I've been informed by my fellow pastors Basically, I took the position of look
33:19
We don't believe that this is something that We can dogmatically demand that everybody do
33:27
But we respect your convictions on it. If you want to do that, that's fine. But we have to live together and We cannot have certain people
33:38
Basically saying to other people you're not being spirit as spiritual as I am.
33:44
So if you can do this without communicating that to other people
33:50
Great fine. If that's your conviction we're there that that that's wonderful and That's how we've tried to handle it ever since then.
33:59
Here's my experience I have seen lots of smaller
34:08
Tr truly reformed that Texas receptus though that that tends to get connected to to be very honest with you
34:16
But I have seen smaller TR truly reformed churches
34:23
That have basically no outreach They're they're not they're not on Mill Avenue, they're not at the
34:32
Macy's to pageant. They're not the general conference They're not at the abortion clinics and their growth
34:42
Comes from funneling people in from other reformed churches based on these issues head coverings exclusive psalmody
34:54
Maybe the textual issue that that has been my experience, too so these
35:00
Non -definitional issues you cannot make any of this definitional of the gospel. You can't make it definitional
35:06
You you can't take a single letter With a very difficult Obscure discussion that that admits of multiple different interpretations
35:22
And say this is definitional for the entire church down through history You just can't go there, especially when it's something that is completely novel and new outside of anything from the
35:32
Old Testament as well But That's how they get people that's how they bring people in is
35:41
They get them convinced of this They rarely talk about all the other options that are out there but say this is the way it needs to be done and Convince people that that you'll be
35:56
You'll be more reformed than Calvin was If you if you glom onto this and hold on to this the problem is okay, so you end up with everybody all the ladies their heads covered that the excitement of that wears off eventually and You know there's because it's not definitional and You can say well we all feel good because we feel that we are
36:23
Demonstrating the the proper relationship of men and women good We need to be concerned about things like that, but I honestly think there are more
36:34
Obvious and daily ways because I don't see how anybody can look at first Corinthians chapter 11 and Say that that this has anything to do with being outside of the worship service itself and with specific application to praying and prophesying
36:53
That's sort of you're stuck with that's there So yeah,
36:59
I've seen this many many times and If you are convinced
37:08
Hey, I Can be wrong about these things but I'm simply saying you'd have to be convinced of one interpretation of probably more like a dozen rather than just three and That means you'd also have to be convinced that the other 11 of them don't have any validity at all and If but if you're convinced
37:31
Then fine We I have no problem with a woman wearing head coverings in church
37:40
But my Experiences it never stops there it always moves into the next level which is and if you don't there's something wrong with you and That's where the divisions start and the problems come in So, there you go, yeah,
38:00
I know I know We can go long today. It's no big deal. I Don't think that's helpful.
38:06
But there you go. I Was great. Thank you very much. I went way longer than you wanted
38:12
No, it was great All right. Thanks Blake appreciate Okay, Tim Hebrews 110
38:21
Yes Yes, I can All right So I just wanted to ask you a question about Hebrews 110.
38:31
I have been Reading your book Forgotten Trinity lately and I find it
38:37
So so wonderful and stuff like that and I love your presentation on Hebrews 10 and I did
38:44
I did find Jesus as Yahweh but I was wondering if it would be appropriate like if I was wanting to reach out to someone who's
38:52
Like a cult member or something like that. I heard you mention that in Hebrews 110.
38:58
He's quoting from Psalm 102 you at the beginning lay the foundation of the earth but in Hebrews, he's quoting from the
39:07
Greek text, which has the Greek word for Lord, which was the Original what was the translation of Yahweh from the
39:14
Hebrew text? Uh -huh. Do you think do you think in trying to talk with someone of a another?
39:19
The false religion that that's something I should bring up or is that Feel free to correct me if I'm uh,
39:28
I don't know a lot of Greek. So feel free to tell me about not talking. Yeah, well It is fascinating to recognize that the
39:37
New Testament writers and And there's certain people will give different numbers but between 85 and 95 percent of the time they quote from the
39:47
Greek Septuagint and It's it's very very clear that whoever wrote
39:53
Hebrews and my personal theory is That Paul preached the message of Hebrews in Hebrew to Hebrew Christians But it was written down for distribution outside of that narrow confine by Luke the syntax grammar
40:17
Style of Hebrews is Luke acts It's not Paul by any stretch of the imagination
40:25
Anyone I can read Paul really really well reading Hebrews acts and Luke is a very different thing.
40:32
It's not you know, I can read Paul and I can just live translate him because I I Know how he structures sentences and I'm accustomed to that the sentence structure in Hebrews acts and Luke completely different You have to be running down to the end of the line to find your verbs and stuff like that Far more often than do with Paul.
40:55
So my theory is This is Luke writing
41:00
Paul's message and If it's being distributed to Greek speaking people, then what are you going to do?
41:08
You're going to use the version of scripture that is available for Greek speaking people, which is the
41:14
Greek Septuagint and so It's it's very clear
41:21
That the writer to the Hebrews is doing this purposefully Because there are places there's one place in Hebrews 8.
41:29
There's one place in Hebrews 10 where he quotes The Greek Septuagint even when it disagrees with the
41:37
Hebrew Masoretic text and actually makes it part of his point and So there's no question that the original author of Hebrews is using the
41:51
Septuagint and wants the reader to be checking his citations against the
41:57
Septuagint and And so that's what's been given to us in canonical scripture
42:04
There are obviously Lengthy conversations to be had which I've had with people many times
42:10
About exactly how that works it's not what I would call a fundamentalistic view of Inspiration and translation, but it's what were presented in the
42:22
New Testament. And so yes Psalm 102 25 25 27 quoted in Hebrews 1 10 through 12, and then you have to back up If you if you need to you have to back up to verse 8 because verse 8 begins prostate on we on but to the
42:45
Sun he says and then Hebrews 1 10 begins with Chi and He also says this to the
42:56
Sun and So it is the writers intention to say that these
43:02
Old Testament texts are specifically being addressed to the Sun and so I have presented this to many
43:11
Jehovah's Witnesses their own Bible Will give the cross -reference in the center column or at the bottom of the page depending on which printing they have that will direct them back to Psalm 102 25 to 27 and So Yes, most definitely because the writer to the
43:34
Hebrews wants you to start there in your understanding of who Christ is and That just like the prologue of John becomes the lens through which you are to be looking at everything else
43:44
He says so my answer is yes use it All right, that's really cool, thank you so much better James God bless.
43:53
Okay. Thanks Tim. Appreciate it All right Okay, Nick. I hope I hope we can
43:58
Do something meaningful here. What's up? Dr.
44:04
White pleasure to talk to you this afternoon. Yes, sir. I Spend time in the archives of the dividing line
44:15
There have been different things you've said as I've listened along Mostly tangentially about angels and demons and so I wanted to see if you could flesh out a bit more kind of your views on the continued activity of Angels and demons today.
44:35
I mean on the one hand we were just in Hebrews 1 Verse 14 talks about how angels are ministering spirits
44:42
Sent to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation And Well, I know you've preached through Hebrews.
44:50
I don't think I've listened to that sermon on Hebrews 1 14, although I've listened to several of the sermons that you don't
44:56
Hebrews So on the one hand and what are your views on the continued activity of angels on our behalf and then on the other hand?
45:06
what about the continued influence of Demons in the world and especially I have in mind like Demonic possession and things like that kind of what are your views on?
45:17
the continued activities of angels and demons today Yeah Well, I I've probably over the years
45:32
Avoided the subject somewhat simply because of How much abuse there is of the topic in a large portion of evangelicalism today and also just recognizing that there is a great deal of Information on Such terms as pharmacheia in the
45:58
New Testament that I haven't spent enough time on there is I know that again speaking of Jeff Durbin.
46:07
He has addressed a lot of these issues we You know, I can be straightforward we encountered a tremendous amount of demonic activity in Hawaii and When we trying to plant a church in Kauai Incredible attacks upon those people we sent out there
46:29
Some of them they're still dealing with things they went through when they were there. So I know
46:35
Jeff has addressed it and One of our deacons one of our deacons and he's also then the other is a deacon of Apologia, Utah I have a program called cultish where they've
46:50
Addressed a lot of these issues to far more depth than then I would be able to comment on that You might find useful if you look that up But we tend to Think there's we're seeing definitely that there is a tremendous connection between the spiritual realm and the physical realm and That part of that bridge is pharmacheia
47:20
From which we get pharmacy. So in other words Drugs the opening up of the mind to spiritual influences through the use of drugs
47:33
The Amount of that today is astonishing the damage
47:41
Done to the human body and the human mind we look at we see the videos the sad videos in our major cities here in Phoenix in Los Angeles and Chicago, New York of People who are burned out
47:59
Their their minds are gone they've they've been taken from them through drug abuse
48:08
Or their lives through drugs like fentanyl which are just just flowing through Arizona right now like a like a stream
48:14
We don't we don't have a southern border right now And that's all purposeful by the way anyway
48:21
There is a connection because here, you know You destroy the mind and you destroy the the gateway through which truth can be delivered to someone and Again I would refer people more to the
48:37
Jeff on these things because Jeff has extensive experience in dealing with drug rehabilitation and that the the interaction
48:48
Between that and the spiritual realm and the demonic Obviously, there's a lot of silly unbiblical stuff about angels
49:03
You know, you can buy your little angel at your local Christian bookstore and all that kind of stuff
49:09
But the reality is they are as it's described there in Hebrews 1 Ministering spirits
49:18
That Render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation.
49:24
So there is a Concept of of a secondary means and We're only given a few brief
49:38
Glimpses of what any of this would look like where we see Peter being released from prison by an angel that has clear supernatural power
49:47
I mean the angel is able to speak to Peter open doors and get him out of there without waking
49:53
Roman soldiers up That's pretty good That that obviously indicates, you know true supernatural capacity
50:04
But they are simply accomplishing the purpose of God and I think
50:12
They minister to us in ways that we don't generally see We can be thankful for We can recognize that God is using means to minister to us
50:24
But doesn't mean we have to see these things or get all You know
50:32
We the tendons that the tendency of mankind is to engage in idolatry the
50:38
Apostle John bows down to worship the angel that has shown him these things and was the angel have to say to him don't
50:46
Do that worship only God so if if John can do that, then you can see the the danger that that we are in and that's a
50:57
I think that's why we have limited insights given to us and we need to be very very very very careful in coming to some of the conclusions that have been come to About what that ministry involves what we can know about it what our involvement with that can be
51:20
I Just it just seems to me that there is a tendency on the part of a lot of Christians to overlook the
51:32
Really clear direct Teaching a scripture as to living our life and Holiness and service to Christ we look we put all that aside and ooh, let's talk about angels or ooh, let's talk about demons and We just have to take
51:55
Directly and literally what scripture says Satan seeks those whom he may devour.
52:01
You don't play with these types of things. You don't Pretend that you are Somehow the one person is not going to be impacted by these things
52:10
But we also recognize that all of these spiritual Beings are under God's sovereign control so a
52:21
Lot of folks especially folks that don't understand the sovereignty of God they get into this stuff and it becomes this
52:27
Well, I wonder who's gonna win and what can I do to help out and this type of stuff rather than recognizing?
52:33
Hey when you when you obey the clear commands of Christ to love your wife and love your kids
52:38
You're smacking a demon in the in the head every time you do it, you know, it doesn't have to be these things that sell books
52:47
It has to be the things that actually Demonstrate obedience and glorify Christ and and things like that so That's a that's a real brief commentary
53:00
There's much more that needs to be said about that, but I Without without preparation and outline and stuff like that just off top my head that's what
53:14
I'd have to say and like I said, I Would be stunned if there isn't an episode of cultish where Jeff went on and talked about these things in significantly more depth than than I would so I'd direct you that direction
53:31
All right. I know I know I listened to one of the most recent episodes That apology it did and he did talk about some kind of experience.
53:40
He'd had three o 'clock in the morning It was the night before he was supposed to go and testify somewhere.
53:46
Yeah. Yeah make it and and so it Definitely harrowing, but well, yeah Jeff has
53:52
Jeff has Experienced some amazing things both in the way of attack as well as in the way of miracle
53:59
I mean, he's told the story of his his son Augustine and I was
54:06
I had a very minor minor minor part in all of that, but I was one of the first people to hear about the complete healing of Augustine He was supposed to be born with spinal bifida they had the scans they they had the surgery suite ready they had the doctors standing by of Jeff had had agreed that he might have to catheterize his son for 18 years
54:31
And he's already a grandfather for crying out loud and when that child was born they're just Turning him over they're looking at the cats they're looking at the scans and they're looking at the baby and and He called us the the elders
54:51
And he said guys Um, we're at the hospital. We were expecting to be here during all the surgeries
54:58
He's perfect The the the ultrasound showed his
55:05
Spine outside of his body Two days before the birth and he's perfect.
55:13
He's perfectly fine. He has no spinal bifida so Yeah, Jeff has experienced some
55:21
I mean I can all of us can talk about spiritual experiences. One of the reasons
55:26
I don't Is because my spiritual experience can't necessarily communicate to anyone else and There's already too much of that in the church today
55:39
Where people are trying to live in light of what somebody else has experienced in a special spiritual way
55:47
But I was just I was just having lunch Um with one of the co -founders this ministry
55:53
Mike Beliveau and I don't know if you remember this rich. I didn't remember this.
55:58
This was this was something that If Mike told me about I don't remember it, which isn't really it's sadly saying a whole lot anymore but and I hope he doesn't mind my telling the story since he just told it to me, but I I experienced a lot of spiritual stuff in Salt Lake City.
56:18
Okay, you're right there at the gates of darkness and I saw some amazing things there, but Mike told me about early on because Don't worry all those you we're gonna get to you.
56:34
Hold on just hold on Yeah, well maybe no, um, but Mike and I went up to Salt Lake City, and I think it was
56:46
May of 1984 We drove up in my 1964
56:52
Dodge Dart No, two body panels are the same color on the
56:58
Dodge Dart The floorboard was so worn out that there are holes in it so we had to stop at the at page where the dam is and Dig through our luggage in the trunk
57:12
Try to find some socks because the cold air was blowing through the holes in the floorboard on Mike's feet while he was driving
57:20
That's that's where we were. That's that we stayed at Motel 6. We we had nothing.
57:26
Okay, and So I Think it was probably that trip or one of those early trips
57:35
Mike was staying there. We had my tract blood atonement and the Mormon Church still got some in a case somewhere in the other room,
57:43
I would imagine and he's standing there this whole line of Mormons in front of him and He's like I need to say something to these people.
57:52
No one's taking the track. So I need to say some of these people and He says all of a sudden
57:58
I find myself walking up and down for these people Preaching them from the book of Hebrews on the sufficiency of the death of Christ and the blood of Christ And he's he says it it really wasn't me.
58:13
I was too nervous. I was too scared but I Spoke the gospel to these people and he said six months later we go back because we eventually figured out when the general conference was and this woman comes up to him and She's already got her finger up like this.
58:33
So he's figuring okay whenever this is going But she says you were here six months ago, weren't you
58:41
He goes. Yeah, and you were talking about the blood of Christ. Yeah.
58:46
Yeah, I was well, I took one of your tracks out of spite and two months ago,
58:52
I started reading it just out of spite and I have come to place my faith and trust in Jesus Christ as my
59:01
Lord and Savior and has finished work in my behalf that kind of Spiritual experience
59:10
I can get I can tell you my own versions of Very similar things that have happened on the same sidewalks in in Salt Lake City We tend not to talk about them because you know on TBN they replace actually preaching the
59:25
Bible With the constant experience over and over and over again that type of stuff That doesn't mean that we don't have those spiritual experiences.
59:34
We just always have to Define them and recognize them in light of what scripture teaches and So anyways, sorry
59:44
I went long with you I didn't mean to keep you on there forever Now appreciate your time. God bless you in your ministry.
59:49
All right. Thanks Nick. God bless Okay, real quick. Let's talk to Ben Hi, Ben.
59:57
I Think we're going to Luke chapter 16. I'd assume Hey there. Dr. White. Can you hear me? Okay, I can
01:00:03
Awesome thank you so much for Giving us this opportunity. Thanks to rich in the background as well for everything.
01:00:10
He does a big fan of the show my question May or may not be all that important But it's something that I've always been interested in and I'd love to get your take on it
01:00:22
So my question today has to do with mainly Where the
01:00:27
Old Testament Saints went after they died? But prior to the
01:00:33
Ascension right now besides myself and My dad who also happens to be my pastor.
01:00:41
I've actually never heard anyone talk about the like two compartment reality of Hades until I heard you talking about it on your show maybe a few months back or so and in my area
01:00:59
No one believes that you know, they'll say that the Old Testament Saints they all went to heaven You know the story of Lazarus and the rich man.
01:01:08
It's just a parable And not a true story They'll say that Elijah went up, you know when he was translated so there's proof that that's where they went
01:01:18
So I mainly just wanted to get your thoughts on how that worked, you know, like Abraham's bosom paradise
01:01:25
Hades and all that kind of stuff And how you would teach why that reality was necessary to be that way again prior to the
01:01:35
Ascension well Briefly it's because it the
01:01:44
Old Testament does not give us nearly the level of Specificity and clarity that you have in the new and of course, there's all sorts of Variant views some of which are orthodox some of which are not
01:02:03
There are people that have some really interesting theories out there that they sort of go off I think on a few things, but I Don't tend to be super critical
01:02:18
On some of these issues If someone says the I just don't see it that way or I don't think you can necessarily put that amount of weight on it
01:02:25
Stuff like that. I I'm like, okay fine that that's okay, but it just seems to me that Paul is making some reference to this when he says
01:02:37
Christ led captivity captive That there is something that has changed because of the fulfillment of the
01:02:45
Old Testament prophecies That the Old Testament Saints are saved in the same way
01:02:52
But there still has to be an accomplishment of that redemptive work in the cross and the cross is the cross and resurrection is the center point of history and so It's possible that Luke 16 19 following is a parable, but it would be the only parable in all the
01:03:13
Bible that uses a specific name This does that prove one way or the other no, but it is interesting and The The Jews wouldn't have had any problem really understanding the context of What Jesus is?
01:03:32
presenting here Because during the interment intertestamental period there there were various understandings various speculations concerning the nature of life after death because again
01:03:47
The Tanakh the Torah the Nevi 'im the Ketuvim doesn't give us all that level of clarity and some of the texts that we cite
01:03:57
We see the clarity only because we have the New Testament looking backwards at it that that's important to recognize as well so You you plainly have in Luke chapter 16 this distinction this this division between Where Lazarus is and where the rich man goes
01:04:21
And that is reflected later for example by Peter When he talks about how
01:04:29
God Knows how to deliver the righteous but to keep the wicked under punishment for the
01:04:36
Day of Judgment So there is the idea of a continuing punishment
01:04:41
It's not like I mean because it really wouldn't make any sense and think about it You are a wicked person
01:04:47
You are going to be judged by God however, you're gonna get a reprieve from the time of your death until That final day of judgment where you're just gonna you're not gonna be under judgment at all.
01:05:00
You're gonna be good Maybe not knowing anything is that maybe there's it's a soul sleep idea or something like that But Peter says he keeps him under judgment, it's it's very clear that that judgment is an ongoing thing now
01:05:14
I think we have to be careful about Allowing medieval theologians to fill in a
01:05:23
Lot of the details as to exactly what this judgment involves You know, oh, it's it's hellfire.
01:05:29
It's burning. It's this it's that's the other thing. I Think we have to be careful there as to exactly
01:05:36
And I think we have to be careful when we talk about the nature of eternal punishment Because we have so many so many traditions that have grown up over time
01:05:46
Rather than going. Well, what does scripture say the nature of that is and yes, bassanus moss
01:05:52
Torment the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever Okay, you've got that but that doesn't tell us
01:06:03
Anything about the specifics of what the experience is and I I think if we if we have a biblical anthropology,
01:06:11
I really think that it's much more likely that the nature of for example eternal punishment is
01:06:23
Based upon separation from God. So in other words, you're an enemy of God you hate
01:06:28
God You're not gonna be around anybody else people who think there's gonna be any parties in hell or something or are completely wrong it's called darkness for a reason and So you're put us in a position where all restraints are removed from your hatred
01:06:47
But you have nothing that represents God to hate except yourself you bear the image of God and And so I I think the suffering of The damned is not
01:07:02
God sending angels down with pitchforks or Any of the Gary Larson cartoons and there's many many many of them out there
01:07:11
I think it is the individual expressing their hatred of the only thing that is
01:07:21
Representative of God in their experience that's himself I don't think God has to lift a finger
01:07:27
I don't think God is on the one hand comforting us at the same time. He's sending thunderbolts after somebody else so those are some things to think about regarding eternal punishment, but I think what we have to affirm is that that division of the realm of death had a
01:07:50
Doesn't exist any longer because we have the promise in the New Testament That to be absence of bodies to be at home with the
01:07:57
Lord now There's some people that well, that's just because you don't experience time And so you're just gonna cease to exist and then you're going to Or at least be unconscious and then the next thing you'll know you're gonna be with the
01:08:07
Lord I don't think that would have given Paul the confidence at all That a recognition of in Christ and therefore in Him in communion with him as soon as physical death takes place
01:08:25
Awaiting that physical resurrection. I don't think that would have given him the kind of comfort that that I think it really is intended to give so it would seem that at the resurrection and the victory over the evil one that Bifurcation division of the realm of the dead ends but it is
01:08:50
Hades that is emptied in the judgment and the lake of fire is separate from Hades. It is different Hades is not a henna.
01:08:58
They're not they're not identical to one another There are certain aspects of these things that we have to stand firm on and there are other aspects these things
01:09:07
That we have to be very careful about I try to warn people so that they're aware of this In my experience the vast majority of New Testament scholars are conditionalists.
01:09:18
They're annihilationists they don't believe in eternal punishment eternal conscious punishment and a large number of the texts that people use
01:09:31
Simplistically to present that Have fairly decent responses from the other side that argue against it.
01:09:40
I think the most solid foundation for a Orthodox understanding of eternal punishment has to do really with Reformed theology and its understanding of man and the atonement union with Christ and what separation for Christ would mean
01:09:58
Rather than certain texts that might make reference to this or might make reference to that. That's a huge area
01:10:04
I have I have said to folks That you know, there are there are certain people that We can learn much from Stott for example was a conditionalist and yet he wrote some great stuff now there were early church writers that were universalists and That ended up impacting everything they believe about the gospel
01:10:37
So We have to be I really think we have to be careful as to how we
01:10:46
Deal with this because the vast majority of Christians just simply take it as a given and and Have never actually had to listen to and deal with the people on the other side
01:10:56
They're they're we've got a lot more arguments than people think they do so Yeah Anyways, I'm not sure if that had anything to do with what you're saying.
01:11:05
But well, no that is all Incredibly interesting and helpful
01:11:12
The annihilationist view is some way as you to prove your point is somewhat new to me personally something that I stumbled across in just digging into some
01:11:24
Well some of your recent shows As well as looking into it a little bit after kind of getting that initial prompt and and I would also agree as far as the distinction between The eternal state of hell and and Hades as it currently exists
01:11:44
I guess one of the reasons why I do think The concept of Abraham's bosom this place
01:11:52
In the same area where the let's just say the bad side of Hades resides why that's in Important is because to me
01:12:01
I'm thinking, you know, where? You know, where where did Jesus go? Right in between the death and well
01:12:10
The problem there though the problem there though that raises the issue of Defining Tartarus who are the spirits that Christ makes proclamation to what does it mean to make proclamation?
01:12:27
That that gets you into a world of trouble
01:12:33
Really does well I would a hundred percent agree with that and and perhaps my argument for that would not be
01:12:42
What would be far too simplistic to actually take to a deeper conversation about it against someone that was opposing it but in my mind that passage of first Peter, which is just Very very fascinating to me.
01:12:55
Yeah, is that it doesn't necessarily negate That Jesus could have been on the good side of Hades in other words in Abraham's bosom because we know from that Luke 16 passage
01:13:10
That there is a gulf separating the two and that Abraham could speak to the rich man across it
01:13:16
Yeah, so I always thought well, perhaps Jesus is preaching was Taking place on a area in Abraham's bosom, but could be heard
01:13:26
Assuming that those spirits are bad spirits right on the side But yeah again Peter seems to have a speculation.
01:13:33
Yeah, it is it is speculation it just seems to me that Peter seems to have a specific group of spirits in mind that engage in a specific activity and that are
01:13:43
Imprisoned in a very specific place It could be I'm not saying I'm not saying
01:13:49
I would Necessarily argue the point but it that's just how I've always I've always looked at it
01:13:55
But it is a very complex and challenging thing. And that's why I think we have to be sure a somewhat careful about how quickly we swing the theological sword shall we say and lop somebody's head off, so Well, thank you so much for your time today.
01:14:14
Thank you very much. God bless Okay, rich. I think looking at the time the best we're gonna be able to do is to get to Chris and Brenda So Mike and Joseph keep those questions warm and we'll try to do this again.
01:14:27
We did this only a few weeks ago so we're we're doing this a little bit more often and We probably should find a way to do this when
01:14:37
I'm on the road Yes, so get that done let it be said let it be done make it so make it so engage whatever
01:14:51
It can be done I'm sure it can be done. All right, so let's let's get
01:14:56
Chris and Brenda and we're gonna be out of time by that point Chris Dr.
01:15:02
White, can you hear me? I can oh great. Um, so Last time I asked you this question.
01:15:09
This is a follow -up question the context is that the Lama is the noun and philo is the verb and when when you ask most people in the
01:15:21
West they would say that they wish or desire or Want many things but that doesn't necessarily mean that they will do
01:15:28
These things and in the Bible while we have this word philo, but it's often translated now in our
01:15:35
Bibles as wishing wanting and sometimes willing
01:15:42
Often but often desiring willing and wishing and I was just wondering if you think that that those words are sufficient substitutes or synonyms for willing
01:15:53
Well Well, it obviously it depends on you know, this is
01:16:00
I Mentioned in my response to Trent Horne that you have something called semantic domains and The study of semantic domains you look at a word you look at its uses and you determine the parameters of The Meaning of the term
01:16:24
Some have a very narrow semantic domain, which means they're very technical so Aparavitan in Hebrews 7 has a very technical meaning to it.
01:16:34
It can't apply to a wide variety of things but philo Can be used verbally
01:16:42
Philemon as a substantive In a in a number it can be used in indicatively subjunctively optatively, these are different ways that the the
01:16:57
Greek language expresses the nature of the action and So there can be a a wished -for result
01:17:06
Where you actually can express it in such a way as I wish it would happen this way, but it's probably not It's unlikely
01:17:13
Or I Will this to happen and it's it's likely going to happen.
01:17:19
There's an there's ways of doing that so the point is that You can by the context of the language
01:17:28
Point to the specific area of the semantic domain of the meaning of the term and Communicate that in in in your writing.
01:17:40
So if If Paul says I desire you to bring me something
01:17:46
Timothy That's different than if he's talking about God's desire to glorify himself in the person of Jesus Christ very very different contexts and so you can't just Say well since fellow means this in this context that it means this in this context
01:18:09
That that is an abuse of language so There are strong uses of of fellow
01:18:17
God had God wills to do something and the Thelma Connecting Bula my there's there's some there's some synonyms
01:18:29
That are frequently used According to the counsel of his will Well, sometimes counsel is just use of itself or wills just use of itself so When you put them together
01:18:41
That can also impact where the meaning falls as well. So it
01:18:49
You have to you'd have to be looking at a specific usage to get any more specific than that Okay, so you're saying that there's something within the sentence or the surrounding
01:19:05
Syntax that tells us what they low means That tells us what part of the semantic domain of fellow
01:19:14
Is being emphasized by the author? Yes, or okay, or if it's an obscure passage
01:19:22
We were talking about an obscure passage earlier in first Corinthians chapter 11, you know
01:19:27
Kefale head Can have different meanings Private semantic domain is the physical head of a human being but when it says
01:19:36
Christ the head of every man that's a different meaning that's a different area of its of its meaning and so It's not
01:19:46
I'm not saying that there's gonna be a guarantee that the usage is going to clarify
01:19:53
But in the vast majority of instances it does Okay, cuz I the only reason why
01:19:58
I ask is because the older Bibles lean more into Translating it as will willing or would and the newer translations have this wider
01:20:09
Dynamic semantic domain. It just seems confusing to me that a word would be used
01:20:15
That is that has that wide of a semantic domain. It's almost like a
01:20:22
A Gibberish kind of word. Well Lagos Lagos has a wide semantic domain and yet the
01:20:28
Spirit of God used it in John 1 1 the beginning was the Lagos and That has led to arguments and debates
01:20:37
But that was the word the Spirit chose to use so You know
01:20:45
I'm not really aware of a major Argument or debate over the meaning of fellow.
01:20:54
I would imagine that the majority of the differences with more modern translations is more to do with current
01:21:04
English style than it is anything else and Attempting to accurately represent differences between the indicative subjunctive optative
01:21:15
Optative In in the original languages you get into the the justive and things like that in the
01:21:24
Old Testament was similar There's there's similar issues regarding Hebrew words expressing the same concept so Yeah, it's it can be it can be a challenge
01:21:40
But Normally the context provides you with sufficient To be able to make a determination as to whether we're just talking about something that I want to have happen or that something
01:21:52
That is being willed to happen normally, the context does provide you with sufficient information there
01:21:58
I Love that you've given me this answer and thank you Um, I really
01:22:04
I know I'm asking for too much But I would really like to see that actually broken down sometime because to me
01:22:11
It's a big deal about well do am I just wishing something am I just fancying something or is it this or is this something?
01:22:18
That I I should will to do So if that's something that perhaps maybe one day you could you could show on the big board or something.
01:22:26
I'd really appreciate showing how the the Context of a sentence can can can obviously show that it means either wish or wanting.
01:22:38
Okay. All right, Chris I appreciate it. Thanks. Okay. All right. Bye. Bye. All right real quick Brenda Hello, Brenda.
01:22:49
No, Brenda. Hi, dr. White. Can you hear me? I can now Okay First of all, it's a thrill for me to be talking with you, but I won't spend too much time
01:23:05
My question is kind of twofold We know that when
01:23:11
Christ died on the cross that he He all of the sins of the elect were included with him so that then when we elect express their faith in Christ Then his righteousness is included to us and were justified and in good standing
01:23:34
With God and then he won't bring a charge Against us for any sins.
01:23:39
Our sins are forgiven past present and future however in John's first epistle he talks about how true believers don't practice sin, but of course we're going to sin and then in 190 says if we confess our sins he's faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins in front of all right so someone could
01:24:06
Interpret that is meaning like a conditional thing Like if we want our sins forgiven after we're justified when we have to confess our sins
01:24:16
So I need some clarification with that and then the other part of that on top of that is about the
01:24:23
Lord's Supper And I know somebody a Bible teacher. That is a
01:24:29
Roman Catholic He was a Roman Catholic that converted to Christianity and he's definitely a
01:24:36
Christian but his take because of 1st
01:24:41
Corinthians 11 is that when we go to Take the
01:24:48
Lord's Supper that we have to be sure that we confess our sins and that we're cleansed before we do that So that sort of is
01:24:59
Okay, well Fundamentally the the issue that you're you're touching upon here is
01:25:11
The positional and the experiential aspects of sanctification so in other words we recognize the foundation of our relationship with God is
01:25:24
The imputed righteousness of Christ and That all of the writings which were against us have been taken away and nailed to the cross but as 1st
01:25:34
John says there is the experience of what that means in light of the fact that God leaves us in this world and That we experience
01:25:45
Sin we experience failure. We are not perfected in our understanding
01:25:52
And in our experience until Until God brings us home to himself and so there is the need for the experience of forgiveness when we experience the conviction the
01:26:10
Spirit of God regarding our sin and So it's not that the that Christ is re -sacrificed or that the initial cleansing was insufficient
01:26:19
But we ourselves experience that failure and The Spirit of God within us causes us to hate our sin.
01:26:29
We don't want to live in that way and therefore If we confess our sins is faithful and just forgive us our sins.
01:26:36
It is a it is conditional if we don't confess Then the Spirit of God is not active in our lives
01:26:44
It's it's it's not well either or it's one is the experience the other is the reality that gives shape to that experience if you don't recognize the finished work of Christ and The fact that we were united with him
01:27:01
Then you'll end up with some kind of sacramental system where you're constantly running around.
01:27:06
You never have peace And you're constantly trying to fulfill some system that you'll never really be able to to accomplish and That's what you got from Catholicism so and a lot of Protestant denominations to sadly you have the same thing
01:27:23
And so in the same way what Paul is addressing with the Corinthians in regards to the supper is a fundamental failure in the fellowship of the
01:27:39
Corinthian Church to where you don't have any Reflection as to what the sacrifice of Christ means in the sense that it creates the body of Christ You are just looking at yourself
01:27:56
Some people, you know eat gluttonously. They don't care about the poor and and by not being concerned about others
01:28:05
You're not even giving thought to the fact that it is the single sacrifice of Christ that unites all of us
01:28:11
That's the only reason that there is any unity in the body is that it's one sacrifice of Christ It's one righteousness of Christ if you don't have an imputed righteousness
01:28:22
Being given I don't know how for example Rome which has no imputed righteousness can
01:28:29
Provide a meaningful foundation for unity in the church That's why they they do it in regards to your your submission to the
01:28:37
Pope rather than the unity we have as being Recipients of the righteousness of Christ and therefore
01:28:45
I have no basis for looking down on someone else because My standing before God the
01:28:51
Father and they're saying before God the Father is identical so But what you have in in in the supper is
01:29:00
Paul correcting this Haphazard Celebration that leaves the poor out and and it isn't focused upon why
01:29:11
Christ gave us to suffer and suffer in the first place and that was as a an anamnesis a
01:29:18
When Christ says do this in remembrance of me anamnesis Under the
01:29:23
Old Covenant you had a remembrance of sin because it had to be repeated over and over again
01:29:29
Under the New Covenant, we have a remembrance of the sin -bearer and So when we do the supper each week, we are not
01:29:41
Resacrificing Christ we are not doing something we need to do to Prop all of that back up again.
01:29:48
We are remembering the singular sacrifice the hotbox sacrifice of Christ and The way that the
01:29:58
Corinthians had begun to do this was Diminishing that and obscuring that And wasn't and as a result, it didn't bring about the unity that the supper properly
01:30:12
Celebrated brings because there's we're all partaking of one bread.
01:30:17
We're drinking of one cup There's not certain people who get more and certain people get less and certain people do it this time certain people at that time
01:30:25
We're all together. It's a common confession and So when it when we when we when you speak of the
01:30:36
Unworthiness there in first Corinthians it has to do with the divisions in the church
01:30:42
It's not you know, we are obviously to take it very seriously and the dare is to be self -reflection, but the focus to be is to be on Christ and not some
01:30:54
Secondary or tertiary experience of resalvation or naval gazing
01:31:01
I mean sadly I've only been to the
01:31:06
Netherlands once and I'll never get to go again now But one of the things that was expressed to me when
01:31:13
I was there amongst the Reformed Was that many of the Reformed would not partake the
01:31:18
Lord's Supper? Because they did not feel worthy they they had a basically a context of a concept of sinless perfectionism required
01:31:30
To partake of the supper and I thought that was tragic the supper is one of the greatest means of grace the
01:31:37
Lord has given to us and so to Purposefully not partake of it because I don't feel worthy enough.
01:31:45
Well, you're not you're never gonna be worthy That's that's that's that's the whole point. He's the one who's worthy not us
01:31:53
But so there can be a scrupulous scruple scrupulosity Maybe that's a new word.
01:32:00
I just made up that keeps people from Partaking because of that and that that that needs to be warned against as well.
01:32:10
So There you go, I think it's just simply the experience our
01:32:16
Ongoing experience in life of sanctification that's based upon the recognition of the reality of The perfection of the work of Christ, but we still live in this life and therefore we need to experience that forgiveness
01:32:30
It's really where the eternal and the temporal But up against each other and we're still in the temporal we're still in the time bound
01:32:40
We're we see the eternal reality but that Time boundedness means we need to experience that forgiveness on a regular basis
01:32:50
Which we do when we confess our sins and and can trust in that forgiveness because it has been provided in Christ Okay Thank You Brenda Appreciate it.
01:33:03
All right. We went a lot longer than I thought we were gonna go today, but Mike will get we'll get back to that one and Joseph as well, thank you for your your calls today and This is
01:33:15
Thursday. Yes, okay Real quick here, I think
01:33:23
They're coming up real fast so next week should be fairly straightforward I'm looking at an old -style calendar hanging on the wall.
01:33:31
Look at that and Then the next week is when everything will go
01:33:39
Bunkers and For example, I know that I'll be leaving I believe on A Tuesday.
01:33:46
Yes, I will so probably we'll do something on that Monday But I know that that Tuesday We're literally doing a pastoral meeting that I'll be zooming or whatever we use
01:34:00
In for when I get to Albuquerque, I'm sorry to Holbrook and then on the 6th the next day
01:34:08
I'm doing iron sharpens iron with Chris Arnzen So it could be a Monday Thursday type of situation somewhere along those lines
01:34:18
But we will obviously use the app to let you know that we're on We're on the road and we'll let you know when we're gonna be able to do things or when we have to move stuff whatever it might be and We'll go from there.
01:34:33
So once again The travel fund at a omen org, that's how we
01:34:42
Pay for that. Did you know diesel fuels green? Yeah, that's great and It's now costing $4 .49
01:34:51
per gallon. Thank you Joe Biden once again But for the fuel and the
01:34:58
RV parks, I stay in only the best Actually, I know
01:35:04
I'm normally a KOA and That's that's how we do it but and man ice
01:35:12
I go to all the fancy restaurants died I Will normally make like a turkey sandwich to have in my little cooler while I'm driving and The kind folks
01:35:28
Carolina's give me a wonderful fact. I you got to remind me. I need to send a I need to send a text
01:35:35
About the next upcoming trip because They give me wonderful machaca chimichangas to eat on the way
01:35:43
But we ain't we ain't spending big bucks along those lines, but we need your support along along that way
01:35:51
And I appreciate your you're doing that. So One more week of regular stuff and then things get disrupted
01:36:01
Please be praying for the debate with Gregory Coles The more I'm prepping for this or the music's already playing great the more
01:36:09
I'm prepping for this the more I realize How challenging this is going to be so please pray for that debate that God will see fit to bless