July 24, 2023 Show with Dr. Chris Castaldo on “The Upside-Down Kingdom: Wisdom for Life from the Beatitudes”

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Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father

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James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister

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George Norcross, and sports legend Jim Thorpe, it's Iron Sharpens Iron.

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This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have a view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

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Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is

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Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this 24th day of July, 2023.

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I am thrilled to have a first -time guest today, especially thrilled since he is also a native of Long Island, New York from my old stopping grounds and has even been a member of churches that I know very well before leaving that island and being a pastor of a totally different church in Naperville, Illinois.

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His name is Dr. Chris Castaldo. He is an author and lead pastor of New Covenant Church in Naperville, Illinois.

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And today, we're going to be addressing his latest book, The Upside -Down Kingdom, Wisdom for Life from the

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Beatitudes. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr.

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Chris Castaldo. Thanks, Chris. It's a privilege to be with you. And tell our listeners about New Covenant Church in Naperville, Illinois.

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Right. We're located outside of Chicago, western suburbs. We are a plant from College Church in Wheaton, which has been here for 11 years now.

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We occupy a tall, steepled building on the corner of South Washington and 75th

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Street. Great. And tell us something about the theological background of this church.

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Right. So, we are Reformed in our commitments. I am a

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Calvinist, and we're not militant about it. We're not uptight, but we do believe in—

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I thought you said you were a Calvinist. Right, exactly.

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Well, it was in those early years when you and I first met that I was introduced to Reformed theology there on Long Island.

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And, you know, having come from a Roman Catholic background, when I finally understood

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God's grace in salvation, that it wasn't me, like so many former

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Catholics, I had this conception of God, that He was folding His arm, tapping

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His toe, waiting for me to get my act together. And when I understood that my acceptance by God is grounded in the complete and perfect work of Jesus, that captured my heart.

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And so, here I am, all these years later. Well, if anybody is either traveling through Naperville, Illinois, or perhaps you live in or near there, or perhaps you have family, friends, and loved ones who live in or near Naperville, Illinois, I strongly urge you to pay a visit to New Covenant Church.

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And for more details on that church, you may visit newcovenantnaperville .org, newcovenantnaperville .org,

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and that is spelt N -A -P -E -R -V -I -L -L -E. By the way, am I pronouncing that town correctly?

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You are, bravo. Great, just wanted to make sure, because I am regularly corrected by mispronouncing the names of cities, even in my new home state of Pennsylvania.

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I have to constantly remind myself that it is not Lancaster, Pennsylvania, as in Burt Lancaster.

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It's Lancaster. In fact, my own hometown of Carlisle, I just mispronounced it right there.

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The locals call it Carlisle, so I don't know if I'll ever call it

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Carlisle. But I guess I have a rebellious streak in me, and I want everybody to always remember that I am a

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New Yorker. Yeah, don't change. That's what we love about you, Chris. That's the one thing that people love about me.

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Well, if you're not from New York, there are a lot of people who immediately despise me learning that fact. But anyway, well, we have a tradition here on Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio.

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Whenever we have a first -time guest, we have that guest give a summary of their salvation testimony that would include the religious atmosphere, if any, in which they were raised, and any kind of providential circumstances our sovereign

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Lord raised up in their lives that drew them to Himself and saved them. And I would love to hear your story.

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Yeah, thank you, Chris. Growing up on Long Island as a Roman Catholic, I was familiar with religious things, but never heard a clear explanation of why

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Jesus came, why He died. And at age 19, I became interested in spiritual things.

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I was in the hospital for five weeks with meningitis. And, you know, something happens to you when you're staring at the ceiling all that time, wondering what will happen to me when

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I close my eyes in death. So after being released, I decided to search for answers.

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I started practicing Transcendental Meditation under the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi.

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Twice a day, I would find a quiet place and meditate. I would go into Manhattan and hear famous speakers through the

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Learning Annex, people like Deepak Chopra, Marianne Williamson, and other such people.

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I walked on three yards of burning red -hot coals with my bare feet at the

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Jacob Chapman Center. I just did that this afternoon. It's very stimulating.

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So all of this was intended to find the answer to life, realize some sense of spiritual transcendence.

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And yet it, of course, all fell short. And then one day when

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I was arriving at my office in Manhattan, I worked for New York Telephone at the time, I received a call from a family member saying my dad had suffered a heart attack.

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So at once life changed. He was in the hospital. I was running the family business.

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And the waterline of anxiety and fear rose each day. And it was into that setting

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God brought an employee who was an evangelical Protestant. Now you know,

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Chris, Long Island, there's basically three types of people religiously, Catholics, Jews, and other, right?

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And so I had no understanding of what Protestantism was. In fact, when I grew up in my neighborhood,

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I was a Roman Catholic. And the way that you told apart the

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Catholic families from the Protestant families is that the Catholic families actually went to church.

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And ironically, sometimes the Protestant families would even come to the Catholic church on Christmas and Easter.

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Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. Of course, there was only one evangelical family in my neighborhood, though.

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I'm assuming they did not do that. Right. Yeah. Evangelicals are a minority group, to be sure, there.

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And yet I was so afraid and stressed and worried that I decided to go to church with her when she invited me.

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So now it's a Wednesday night, first time at a Protestant church. I'm looking around thinking, who goes to church on a

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Wednesday night? This is bizarre. That's a cult. The place was packed. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right, right.

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This is what I'm thinking. And we get a seat, thankfully, in the back. I feel out of place.

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I'm like a pork chop in a synagogue right now sitting back there. And, you know, a long time of singing.

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Eventually, the lead pastor gets up. He's like a combination of a young Billy Graham and Al Pacino with, you know, pinky ring waving and an olive green double -breasted suit.

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And he starts his sermon saying, There's someone here searching for life's purpose.

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Someone here who's looking toward heaven and seeing a disapproving God. And I'm here to say, look no further.

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Jesus died for your sins. He was raised from the dead, and he now lives.

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And that was the moment when the light came on. And in good Protestant fashion,

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I went down to the front to pray, to receive Jesus. So that was the moment of conversion.

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And then in God's providence, I was eventually led to Bible college here in Chicago at Moody. I went to seminary at Gordon Conwell in Massachusetts.

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And then in due course, I did a research degree. I did a PhD at the London School of Theology. Wow. Well, your conversion story, the genesis of it anyway, does not sound like the church where you discovered

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Christ and the gospel was a Reformed church. So how did you come to discover, understand, embrace, and fall in love with the doctrines of sovereign grace, otherwise known as the

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Reformed faith and also known as Calvinism? Right. Yeah. So my dad had a friend who was, in fact, a

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Protestant. And when he learned that I was going to this very charismatic, almost prosperity gospel -like church in which

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I was converted, he said, ah, I've got another church I'm going to recommend. So having rapport with him and trusting him,

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I made that change. But that second church was not Reformed either.

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It was after my first year of Bible college, when

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I was introduced to Calvin himself, that some friends and I began to understand the doctrines of grace.

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And then in due course, I found a church on Long Island that identified specifically as Calvinistic.

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And so that was the moment when I began to understand and embrace Reformed theology.

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Well, praise God for that. And when did you realize that God had placed a call upon your life to enter into pastoral ministry?

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Right. So it wasn't very long. During my first summer home,

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I did an internship. And it was actually in South Florida where I served at a church.

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And I realized that it was in the course of visiting people, encouraging, teaching

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Sunday school, preaching in the open air, that I experienced the greatest degree of satisfaction and joy.

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And it was in conversation with some mentors that I discerned, you know, I think perhaps the Lord is calling me to do this vocationally.

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And so it was in that summer when it really came into focus. And that resolution was confirmed in a number of ways thereafter.

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And how did you receive the call from the church in Naperville? Right. So I was on staff at a college church in Wheaton, serving with Kent Hughes and others.

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It was a real privilege and joy to be there. Yes. Kent has been on that program. Is that right?

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Oh, terrific. Yeah. And so has Phillip Reagan. Okay. Yeah. So both of them have a real vision for mentoring.

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And so there were a number of us younger pastors who served with Kent, and he treated us as colleagues.

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He said, I want to invest in you. And then his wife,

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Barbara, invested in my wife. And I can't begin to express how much

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God used them in our life. So it was during that time when the

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Lord began to give me a desire to study more. So after eight years at college church,

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I transitioned to the Billy Graham Center, where I directed a ministry aimed at the

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Catholic -Protestant intersection. I had, for conversation, I had written a book for Zondervan called

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Holy Ground, Walking with Jesus as a Former Catholic, which told my story, but also offered some reflection on how we can embody the good news among Catholic friends and loved ones.

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And that had gotten some people's attention at Wheaton College, such that they decided to begin a new center there, aimed at equipping the church for gospel witness among Catholics.

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So it was during those three years of leading that ministry when

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I did my research at the London School. I did it from a distance and would travel to the

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UK once or twice a year. And then after three and a half years in my windowless office,

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I realized I was about to shrivel and die by myself. And I really wanted to get back into pastoral ministry.

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In God's providence, the New Covenant was then searching for a pastor. And so we began to talk, and the rest is history.

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Well, praise God for that. Well, I'm going to give our listeners our email address if you have a question about our conversation today.

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Our specific topic will be Dr. Costaldo's new book, The Upside Down Kingdom, and that is subtitled

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Wisdom for Life from the Beatitudes. But since he is a pastor, we will permit a broader range of topics.

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You may have a pastoral question. Please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA. And please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter, and that would likely be if you have a pastoral question.

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But if it's a general question, please give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence.

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Well, first of all, we not only have seasoned Christians who listen to this program, and we not only have theologians and Bible scholars and pastors and seminary presidents and seminary professors listening to this program weekly, but we also have, from time to time, which is made evident by the questions

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I sometimes receive or emails that I receive after a program, we have people who are newly born into the

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Christian faith. We have people who are not even Christians sometimes. People in various religions outside of Christianity, and even atheists on occasion.

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But please explain, what are the Beatitudes? Right, so the

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Beatitudes constitute the opening section of Jesus' Sermon on the Mount. You find it in Matthew chapter 5.

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You find another version in Luke chapter 6. And it's there that Jesus is describing the heart of his kingdom.

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Chapter 4, our Lord has been preaching the good news. He says, repent, the kingdom of heaven is at hand, pointing to himself.

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He is the embodiment of the kingdom. And then as he begins his famous Sermon on the

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Mount, he offers the Beatitudes. And I don't have a Bible in front of me at the moment, but I think

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I know them. If I get stuck, you'll help me, Chris. Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

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Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted. Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.

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Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be satisfied.

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Blessed are the merciful, for they will receive mercy. Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see

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God. Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.

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Blessed are you when you're persecuted for righteousness' sake, for yours is the kingdom of heaven.

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Blessed are you when they say all manner of evil against you and revile you for my name's sake, for so they reviled the prophets who were before you.

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So here you have these eight or nine sayings about the person who lives in relationship to the

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God of this kingdom. And among other things, it gives us a portrait of how we are supposed to live for Christ in this world.

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Amen. And now you have a very unusual title, The Upside -Down

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Kingdom. How does this relate to the wisdom for life from the Beatitudes?

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Right. So one of the things we learned when we studied the Beatitudes is that it's thoroughly counterintuitive.

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That is to say, it challenges the ideals of this world. It pours gasoline on our priorities and then lights a match, if you will.

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And so where we prize strength and human glory, it puts a spotlight on Jesus, the one who humbled himself to the point of death, even death on the cross.

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But we avoid mourning and lament. We'd rather distract ourselves by binge -watching

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Netflix or by, you know, soothing our pain some other way. It calls us to be honest to God about our suffering and to find our comfort in him.

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And, you know, right down the line, meekness, that is to say gentleness or humility.

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How countercultural is that today in our society full of outrage?

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And so Jesus is laying out these priorities, these behaviors to say, look, if you're in union with me, you belong to me.

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That is, if you're a citizen of the kingdom, these are the virtues. These are the patterns of life that should mark you as to your identity and your calling.

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Amen. We're going to our first break right now. If you have a question of your own that you would like to ask

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Chris Costello, our e -mail address is ChrisArnzen at Gmail dot com.

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ChrisArnzen at Gmail dot com. As always, give us your first name, at least your city and state and your country of residence.

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If you live outside the USA and we would ask that you that you only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

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That's ChrisArnzen at Gmail dot com. ChrisArnzen at Gmail dot com.

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Royaldiadem .com. Always mention Chris Arnz and Avayin Trepan's Iron Radio. We're now back with Chris Costaldo.

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And we are discussing his book, The Upside -Down Kingdom, Wisdom for Life from the

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Beatitudes. And the Beatitudes are not immediately understood by many people.

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In fact, there are even people who have been Christians for many years. They may even be scholars who have disagreements upon the intent of our

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Lord Jesus Christ when he spoke these words. And one of them that is not readily understood, especially by new

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Christians, is the very first one. Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

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Now, what does it mean to be poor in spirit? And what does it mean that they have ownership of the kingdom of heaven?

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Yeah, we often get full of ourselves, don't we? That's what sin does.

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And Jesus' statement there is pointing out that we are spiritually bankrupt before God.

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We are, as Augustine put it, a massa perditionis, a mass perdition. And left to our own devices, we will not only make bad choices, but we will undermine the integrity of who we are and what we're called to do.

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And so Jesus is saying, look, be honest about that. When you look at yourself and the world around you, understand it is only in relationship to me, what some call a dominion of dependence, only by depending on me, only by relying on me, that you will embody this kingdom in the world.

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So I think that's the leading edge of what Jesus is doing. He's cutting us down to size, in short, and pointing out that, on one hand, it's bad news.

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We cannot live the Christian life. But, of course, it's very good news, because in Jesus we have our sufficiency, the one who imparts his spirit for Christian living.

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Okay, we have an anonymous listener who asks us about the second beatitude, which is in verse 4, actually.

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I'm sorry, verse 3. No, no, I was right the first time. I've got to get new glasses. That's verse 4.

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The listener asks, the second beatitude in verse 4 of Matthew 5, verses 1 through 12, says,

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Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted. What I don't understand is that I have been mourning and grieving over the loss of close loved ones for many years, and I have not yet received much comfort over it.

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Is the problem with me? Should I question my salvation? Why is this promise being made when

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I don't seem to be receiving it? Yeah, thank you for that. You hear a question like that, and you recognize people suffer deeply in life.

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There's this situation. There's the person who has the terminal diagnosis or the parent who loses a child.

36:40

I mean, there's some experiences of life that are so deeply painful that we can hardly lift our eyes above the horizon to see the face of God.

36:52

The encircling gloom is so thick that we can hardly hear God's promises, and that's real.

36:58

And I don't think we do ourselves any favors. We certainly don't serve people by suggesting that the

37:05

Christian life is easy. So what does it mean then to receive divine comfort?

37:13

I have a child who has severe hemophilia, a condition in which his blood does not clot naturally.

37:20

When he was a baby, we had him in a swimming pool in our living room.

37:26

We had one of those blow -up rubber pools, you know, and that's where he learned how to walk.

37:32

Because if he had fallen like newborns do or toddlers do, it would have likely sent us to the

37:39

ER. So fast forward a few years, it's time for him to learn how to ride a bicycle.

37:47

Look, I'm from Sicilian extraction. I'm a nervous person. I'm tightly wound to begin with. So now

37:52

I'm going to teach my son with hemophilia how to ride his bike. So he has on his elbow pads and his helmet, his shiny bike with the bell.

38:00

He starts off and I'm behind him with my arms outstretched, ready to throw myself down on the sidewalk to cushion his fall.

38:10

And we did this for about a half an hour. And of course, he fell. Thankfully, it wasn't so serious.

38:18

And afterward, we're walking back home together hand in hand. And it was in that moment, it was as though God said, if you love your son that much to throw your body down, to care for him and protect him in that way, how much more do you suppose

38:36

I love you? And we know the answer to that. God demonstrates his love for us in that he's given his son to die in our place.

38:49

I think that's where we find comfort is in the assurance that God loves us to that extent.

38:57

And even though life circumstances may be grim and the pain is real, we believe that the

39:05

Lord has us in his hand. And in some way, we don't understand. He will work through our pain and provide us with comfort.

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That's where I go for myself and as a pastor.

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There is no easy answer. We need to be honest about that.

39:30

But we should also be hopeful that God's promises are true. Amen. And nowhere in the text is a promise instantaneous and complete comfort while we're on this earth.

39:46

Sometimes it's interesting how often, and I don't mean this to in any way, shape or form, belittle or ridicule or say anything that would make our listener feel uncomfortable, because this is a universal problem with all of us.

40:03

It's interesting how often when we read the Bible, sometimes we interpret what we are reading in a way that we would never even interpret our own writing.

40:16

And, you know, there are phrases that we use.

40:22

Of course, a classic example would be the tension and the divide between Calvinist and Arminian Christians, where you very often hear anti -Calvinist fundamentalists saying, all means all, all means all.

40:41

And you say to them, well, you don't even use that word universally to mean every single human being on the face of the earth every time you use the phrase.

40:55

You know, I mean, when you have a sign in front of your church that says all are welcome, does that mean that every single human being on the face of the earth is welcome to walk through the doors of that church?

41:07

No, you don't mean that. You mean all kinds of people, whatever status in life you are in, whatever even religion you may adhere to or lack thereof.

41:18

Of course, I'm not speaking of membership, but most churches, even the strictest of fundamentalist churches, would love it if Muslims walked in and Orthodox Jews and atheists because they want them to hear the gospel.

41:32

But anyway, that's a side point. But it just goes to show that very often we try to make a claim about a biblical passage's meaning, and we don't even use the language that we think proves that interpretation in our own way of speaking.

41:53

But we would hope that you do find comfort. And if you do not have a church home, a biblically solid church home, no matter where you live, if you email me with that request for a recommendation,

42:08

I have extensive lists of very biblically faithful churches, including the one that my guest today pastors,

42:18

New Covenant Church in Naperville, Illinois. But no matter where you live, I do have extensive lists spanning the globe, so I may be able to help you find a church.

42:25

But guess what? I would say— Go ahead. Yeah. So I might say as well, you know, the passage right after the

42:34

Beatitudes—in our Bibles, we have sections, which is helpful. But of course, this is one sermon that hangs together coherently.

42:42

Jesus goes on to say immediately afterward, You are the salt of the earth. You are the light of the world.

42:50

And that's a plural view. And one of the implications is that we together, as the people of God, enrich one another's lives.

42:58

And we shine hope into one another's lives. And so I think it's important to say as well, in those moments of suffering, when we're in the valley, that's when our brothers and sisters in Christ are so necessary.

43:13

Not that we, like Job's friends, come in and offer the solution. But we sit together, we grieve together, we call out to God and lament together, and together receive

43:24

His comfort. Amen. Well, Anonymous, guess what? You've also won a free copy of the book we are discussing,

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The Upside -Down Kingdom, Wisdom for Life from the Beatitudes, compliments of our friends at Crossway, who have given us a limited number of giveaway copies, for those who submit questions today.

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And also thanks to our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com, who will ship it out to you at no charge to you or to us.

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If you are a first -time questioner, please make sure that I know that, because you will also receive a new

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New American Standard Bible that we give to all of our first -time questioners.

44:04

So thanks for joining us today with a very good question. Another one of the confusing and debated

44:13

Beatitudes. Blessed are the gentle, for they will inherit the earth.

44:24

That sounds very post -millennialist to me, if not theonomic.

44:30

But the gentle part doesn't seem to go with that. Tell us about that passage.

44:38

What exactly does that mean? Right. Yeah, the word meek is perhaps most often used there.

44:46

But it's the same idea, basically. And there is often confusion when we use the word meekness with an

44:54

M for the word weakness, right? It could even be thought of as being sissified or something.

45:03

Yeah, right, right. And the proper meaning of meekness is strength that is governed by the

45:12

Holy Spirit. It's submitted to God Himself for His purpose.

45:18

I've even heard of it as being power -restrained. Yes, I like that.

45:24

Yeah, that's the idea. And, of course, Jesus is the supreme example, the one who has authority of heaven and earth.

45:30

Yet He humbled Himself to the point of death, even death on the cross, throughout His life.

45:36

A smoldering wick He will not snuff out. That's a beautiful image of meekness, of gentleness.

45:44

And this is, of course, who Jesus is, Exodus 34. The Lord, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness.

45:55

It's really interesting. That's one of the few places, maybe the only place, where the Lord says with His own lips, as it were, what

46:02

He's like. And of all the things He might have mentioned, could have underscored His sovereignty, could have stressed

46:08

His holiness, what He chose to emphasize was His mercy,

46:13

His steadfast love, meekness, if you will. And I think that's another hallmark of the kingdom that Jesus is presenting to His listeners.

46:25

We have a question from Bobby in Hartsdale, New York, which is on that beatitude.

46:33

The question that Bobby has is, when we read the meek in Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth, many people try to assume and impose upon others an interpretation of that, that borders on teaching that Christians are commanded to be doormats.

46:56

They are to be pacifists. They are never to show aggression or stand firm and even fight back.

47:06

Can you please be more clear about what meek means? Yeah, thank you for that.

47:11

Right. Because we see Jesus standing up to advocate. He goes toe -to -toe with the

47:18

Pharisees, for example, in Matthew 23. He even calls them whitewashed tombs, you know, gleaming on the outside but full of dead men's bones.

47:27

Jesus did not hesitate to speak honestly and directly. Of course, He overturned the tables in the temple.

47:37

Drove those defiling the temple out with a whip. Right. Now, this is where you and I, Chris, can have a very interesting conversation about the culture of New York compared to other places.

47:50

When I was in New York, a pastor said to me, if the Lord calls you back here to Long Island, you'll never have to worry about someone stabbing you in the back.

48:00

They will, in fact, stab you in the chest, and they'll tell you off as they do it. It's really quite refreshing, though, because at least you know what they think.

48:11

And I'll tell you, I think of that often when I was a pastor in the Midwest, where we have this phenomenon that's different from what

48:19

I grew up called Midwest nice, where people are upset with you, but they'll never say anything about it.

48:26

Right. What's my point? My point is we have to be honest. And anger is, in fact, not bad in and of itself.

48:36

There are forms of evil over which we should be angry in this world and we should express that.

48:43

But we do it as Christians. We do it with meekness that is governed by the Holy Spirit. We're not bitter.

48:49

We don't condemn people. We can condemn sin, but we always hold out the hope that the

48:56

God of steadfast love will save this person. I mean, look at Saul of Tarsus. Goodness gracious.

49:02

If there's someone for whom you would say this, this fella needs to be done away with, it would have been him.

49:08

And yet he became the Apostle Paul. So you see what I'm saying? Yes. Yes. We're not doormats.

49:14

We're honest. And we should even express anger at times, but we do it redemptively.

49:21

That's what it means to be a member of Christ's kingdom. And one thing that we have to clarify, you're a

49:28

Sicilian from New York. Obviously, not not everybody in New York will stab you in the chest.

49:34

Sometimes you have to be worried about who's in the backseat of your car. Give you an offer you can't refuse.

49:42

By the way, Bobby in Hartsdale, you've also won a free copy of the

49:48

Upside Down Kingdom. Please make sure we have your full mailing address in Hartsdale, New York.

49:53

And CVBBS .com will ship that book out to you that this is another example of something that somebody could claim.

50:05

I think Christ is breaking promises all the time because, you know, people are being meek and mild and they are not being aggressive and loud.

50:21

And and they they appear to be going nowhere in this life.

50:27

They keep getting passed up for a promotion in their job. Their spouses left them, their children don't think very highly of them.

50:39

You could go on and on and on. So these kinds of promises do not mean that they will quickly come and be completely brought to fruition on this earth.

50:51

Am I right? In a way that we expect, especially. Yeah, indeed.

50:58

John 1, 14, Jesus came full of grace and truth. It's it's both together, maintained with balanced poise.

51:06

We'd like to go to one extreme or the other. We're either foaming at the mouth, pitbulls going for the jugular, the person who might disagree with us.

51:14

Or we're so open minded that our doctrinal brains fall out of our heads. Right.

51:19

We no longer have integrity theologically. And the person of Jesus shows us we must maintain both truthful, sincere and at the same time warm hearted and meek.

51:37

Amen. Well, we have to go to our midway break right now. The midway break is a bit longer than the other breaks, because Grace Life Radio 90 .1

51:47

FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a longer break in the middle of the show because the FCC requires of them to localize

51:55

Iron Trip and Zion Radio geographically to Lake City, Florida. And they do that with their own public service announcements and other things that they air in the middle of the show, while we simultaneously air our globally heard commercials.

52:10

So if you're not living in Lake City, Florida, and you're not listening to Grace Life Radio, you'll hear our globally heard commercials.

52:17

So I ask you to use this time wisely. Please write down as much of the contact information as you possibly can for as many of our advertisers as you can, so that you can more frequently and successfully respond to our advertisers.

52:33

Even if you don't need what they are offering right now, you may in the future need that.

52:39

You know, write it on a Post -it note. Do people still use Post -it notes? I don't know. Store it somewhere on your cell phone or on your computer.

52:48

However you store information. And perhaps one day, and it might even be sooner than you think, you'll go,

52:55

Wait a minute, there was an ad for that on Iron Trip and Zion Radio. But even when you can't do that, when you can't purchase something, when you can't support financially a parachurch ministry that we advertise, when you cannot visit a church that we're advertising, whatever it is, there's one thing that every single listener in this audience can do if you really love the show.

53:19

You can contact the advertiser and simply say, Thank you so much for sponsoring

53:25

Iron Trip and Zion Radio. And tell them how much you love the show, if indeed you do love the show and are grateful that there are very generous people and organizations out there that take the wealth with which

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God has blessed them and they share it with us at Iron Trip and Zion Radio so that we can stay on the air.

53:44

Please do that. And also, send in your questions to Chris Costaldo at ChrisArnzen at gmail .com

53:51

Give us a first name at least, city and state and country of residence. Don't go away. We'll be right back with Chris Costaldo right after these messages from our sponsors.

54:01

The Mid -Atlantic Reformation Society presents The Future of Christendom 2023 The Gospel at War September 15th to the 16th in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania featuring

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Dr. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries We are excited to be including a formal debate in this year's conference.

54:19

Dr. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries will be debating Dr. Gregory Coles, author of Single Gay Christian A Personal Journey of Faith and Sexual Identity The debate topic

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Is gay Christian a biblically acceptable identity for a member of Christ's Church? So come join us for the 6th

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Future of Christendom conference. The event will take place at Spooky Nook Sports in Mannheim, Pennsylvania and will run from Friday evening through all day

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Saturday with an invitation to the Sunday morning worship service of the Independence Reform Bible Church. This will be a weekend packed with practical teaching with a theme of the

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Gospel at War in many areas of our culture including government schools, the Supreme Court, missions, feminism and even the church pulpits.

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Head to futureofchristendom .org James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries here

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I'm very excited to announce that my long time friend Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again for the

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G3 National Conference that's Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd on a theme that I have been preaching, teaching, writing about and defending in live public debates for most of my life

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The Sovereignty of God I'll be joined on the speaking roster by Steve Lawson Voti Baucom, Paul Washer, Virgil Walker, Scott Anuel and Josh Bice, founder of G3 Ministries And there's more great news

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Chris Arnson, I look forward to seeing you all Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd at the

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It's such a blessing to hear from Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listeners from all over the world

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Here's Joe Riley, a listener in Ireland who wants you to know about a guest on the show he really loves hearing interviewed

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Dr. Joe Moorcraft I'm Joe Riley, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listener

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Going back to 2005 One of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is

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Dr. Joe Moorcraft If you've been blessed by Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Dr. Moorcraft and Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia are largely to thank since they are one of the program's largest financial supporters

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Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming is in Forsyth County a part of the Atlanta metropolitan area

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Heritage is a thoroughly biblical church unwaveringly committed to Westminster standards and Dr.

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Joe Moorcraft is the author of an 8 -volume commentary on the larger catechism Heritage is a member of the

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Hanover Presbytery built upon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone and tracing its roots and heritage back to the great

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Their primary goal is the worship of the Triune God that continues in eternity For more details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia visit

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Or call 678 -954 -7831 That's 678 -954 -7831

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If you visit I'm Joe Reuttingen, Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listener I'm a toy in County Kildare, Ireland Sanchu If you love

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio one of the best ways you can help keep the show on the air is by supporting our advertisers

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One such faithful advertiser who really believes in what Chris Arnton is doing is

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Thanks for helping to keep Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio on the air This is

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Pastor Bill Sousa, Grace Church at Franklin here in the beautiful state of Tennessee Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support

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Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio financially Grace Church at Franklin is an independent autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in Scripture through the person and work of our

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Lord Jesus Christ and of course the end for which we strive is the glory of God If you live near Franklin, Tennessee and Franklin is just south of Nashville maybe 10 minutes or you are visiting this area or you have friends and loved ones nearby we hope you will join us some

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Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin Our website is

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This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our

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Sovereign Lord God, Savior and King Jesus Christ today and always

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When Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio first launched in 2005 the publishers of the

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Dr. Castaldo? Do you not know Mike Gadosz the founder of Solid Ground Christian Books? And I guess he is somewhere not to be found right now

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Okay, well perhaps he'll be back in his seat in a little while and we'll ask him that again

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And we ask that you visit that site frequently and purchase generously Always mention that you heard about them from Chris Orens and an

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Iron Troupe on Zion Radio I think Chris Castaldo is back I just wanted to or I already asked you and you weren't there,

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I guess You're familiar with Mike Gadosz, are you not? And you're muted, you're muted

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It's our friend until it's not That's correct, my dad and Mike are friends

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Okay, yeah, because it was Mike that referred me to your book and strongly recommended that I interview you

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Before I return to my interview with Dr. Castaldo I do have a couple of very important announcements to make

01:10:04

First of all, if you love this show and you do not want it to disappear from the airwaves I'm asking you, please,

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I'm urging you to go to IronSharpensIronRadio .com Click support, then click click to donate now

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You can donate instantly with a debit or credit card in that fashion If you prefer snail mail

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You want to mail a physical check to a physical address Well, there will also be a physical address that appears on your screen when you click support at IronSharpensIronRadio .com

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So, that may be you too if you are homeless spiritually send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com

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and put, I need a church in the subject line Also folks, don't forget about the three -day conference featuring my long -time, very dear friend

01:13:03

Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries that's being held in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania September 15th, 16th and 17th that's a

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Friday, Saturday and Sunday at Spooky Nook Sports and Events very weird name for a wonderful place it's actually the facilities that Doug Mastriano, the

01:13:27

Republican candidate for Governor of Pennsylvania used in one of his major campaign events

01:13:35

So, if you would like to attend this conference which is actually featuring a debate with Dr.

01:13:41

Gregory Coles on the subject Is Gay Christian a

01:13:47

Biblically Acceptable Identity for a Member of Christ's Church?

01:13:54

That would be James White denying that question or opposing it and Dr.

01:14:00

Gregory Cole affirming it Well, if you'd like to attend the conference and debate please go to futureofchristendom .org

01:14:07

to register futureofchristendom .org the sooner you go to that website and register the less expensive the registration fee will be and please, if you have questions for my guest

01:14:20

Dr. Chris Costaldo send them to chrisarnson at gmail .com give us your first name at least your city and state and your country of residence

01:14:28

We are now back with our discussion which is on Dr.

01:14:34

Costaldo's latest book The Upside Down Kingdom Wisdom for Life from the

01:14:39

Beatitudes and here is another one of those promises of Christ that if you take it as a wooden literal promise many people will wonder why they are not satisfied when they do hunger and thirst for righteousness

01:14:59

Can you please explain that one in more detail? Yeah, there's a long debate over the meaning of righteousness here and we who are

01:15:10

Reformed naturally see it in terms of our doctrine of justification that is, to be righteous before God it is the vertical axis it is the basis by which we're embraced as sons and daughters of the

01:15:25

King and that is rightfully understood as the starting point but there are other traditions which have emphasized the internal operation of righteousness the holiness traditions now it's that justice at work in you and bear in mind the words righteousness and justice can be used interchangeably they're coming from the very same words in Greek, Hebrew and Latin and so in some church traditions we put the spotlight on the forensic the legal dimensions others will put it on the more actual operative movements of righteousness and then there's still others who stress the need for righteousness in society social justice and by that I'm not describing some of the controversial ideological forms today so much as a biblically chased extension of righteousness to those in need what the prophets of old preached for and what

01:16:32

I suggest in the book is it can't be one to the exclusion of the others it must start with our righteousness before God and that's where Jesus begins when he calls us to repentance repent for the kingdom is at hand again

01:16:49

Matthew 4 but we who belong to God are given the spirit for a reason so that we'll be made holy and of course the reformed tradition has a great deal to say about that read the

01:16:59

Puritans but today sometimes we reformed people don't see that calling as clearly perhaps in some quarters and yet we can't stop there it's righteousness to us it's righteousness in us and indeed it extends through us into the world and this is where we embody the hope of Christ in very tangible ways in our church communities caring for one another what we were talking about earlier those in need supporting single moms helping children who find themselves in the crucible of anxiety and depression in the church but then beyond the walls of the church what are we doing as salt and light in our communities that's the righteousness that Jesus has in view it's the whole sweep to us in us and eventually through us and we move on now to blessed are the merciful for they will receive mercy and the text of scripture that immediately pops into mind and probably in the minds of most

01:18:10

Christians is Matthew chapter 18 21 through 35 but if you could explain this one as well in a bit more detail right you know

01:18:24

Jesus in his sermon will go on to say look don't point out the speck in your brother's eye and ignore the log in your own we can easily do that I think in context he's referring to the religious leaders the

01:18:38

Pharisees and teachers of the law as sort of exhibit A of that but we all succumb to that temptation and thus we fail to extend mercy so our calling here is to first receive mercy to recognize that we are not sufficient to merit divine approval to secure

01:18:58

God's favor we are objects of mercy and we who receive it must extend it to others and boy oh boy if there is a moment in history in which we need that admonition surely it is now where we decry one another we're outraged we condemn one another this is the counterintuitive countercultural nature of the

01:19:23

Beatitudes in other words let me just speak frankly the news media that we consume whatever it might be is designed to make us frustrated angry and bitter and Jesus presents us with a different approach his approach one that extends mercy instead and this is not teaching pacifism as some might claim well

01:19:53

I'd want to know what you mean by pacifism people who are against war under any circumstances because it's just...

01:20:01

right so you know Augustine's just war theory must be considered as we think about that question surely there are circumstances in which it is right to defend the vulnerable and so there are instances in which war is not only right but necessary that's what righteousness requires so no

01:20:29

I don't think it necessitates pacifism in that sense but does it promote peace does it give us reason to pause and consider whether our relationship to our social adversary properly reflects the ethics of the kingdom yes

01:20:49

I think we ought to do a whole lot more of that and we do have a listener it's

01:20:57

Joseph in South Central Pennsylvania and he says there are some who try to use this scripture that you were just discussing to prove that we should be ecumenists with Roman Catholics and many other denominations that we believe have a false gospel how do you respond to that right so you know so much of the challenge is defining our terms you know so what does one mean by ecumenism what exactly does one mean by joining together in unity with Catholics I wholeheartedly agree that there are fundamental differences between Catholics and Protestants we need to be honest about those those are not going away and they have to do with religious authority and our doctrine of justification has to do with a lot more but if you boil it down I think those are it is today what it was back then in the 16th century the formal and material principles of our difference so yeah

01:22:02

I co -authored a book with Greg Allison called The Unfinished Reformation in which we make that case right on the other hand

01:22:11

I think we have opportunity to relate to our Catholic friends and loved ones in a way that is warm hearted and kind and charitable and you know my concern frankly with the way we

01:22:24

Reformed people sometimes approach this subject is I'll listen to a pastor who will rail against the

01:22:30

Catholic church and then you know Christmas dinner Thanksgiving dinner comes along and all the people in his congregation sit down with their relatives who are

01:22:40

Catholic very often and they naturally echo that same tone and that it seems to me is missionally disastrous and so we need to find a way to be serious minded about our doctrinal differences and at the same time convey the mercy the grace the respect and honor that is central to our identity in Christ and Joseph in South Central Pennsylvania you have also won a free copy of the

01:23:17

Upside Down Kingdom please make sure we have your full mailing address in South Central Pennsylvania so that cvbbs .com

01:23:25

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service can ship a copy of this book out to you at no charge to you or to us and we want to thank also again

01:23:33

Crossway for providing us with a limited number of copies for our listeners who submit questions today during the broadcast of course here is another one that may be up to debate as to the correct exegesis and understanding of what

01:23:56

Jesus is saying here blessed are the pure in heart for they will see

01:24:02

God please explain yeah, so we think of Jesus for example surely there is no one in history who had a pure heart like he did and that's the calling is to realize and manifest that degree of sincerity, of holiness be holy as I am holy says the

01:24:29

Lord we understand of course that we are incapable of doing that we are desperate for the impartation of Jesus righteousness what we in the reformed tradition call imputation of Christ perfection to us and on that basis we are children of God and so we need to be careful we don't turn these into meritorious works, let's be clear none of us can reach that bar the beatitudes are not a horizontal bar for us to clear in that sense they do nothing but reveal our inadequacy but at the same time the

01:25:10

Lord gives us his spirit precisely so we can realize a greater degree of purity and holiness and so we're working from that acceptance we are pure and spotless in Christ, he's separated our sins from us as far as the east is from the west and we're called to press into that holiness or that purity and to the extent that we do we will enjoy rich intimate personal fellowship with God and that I think is the calling to take up our cross and follow

01:25:47

Jesus and enjoy that gift that he provides Amen and we have another beatitude here after that blessed are the peacemakers for they will be called sons of God a very controversial beatitude especially because of the last phrase they will be called sons of God and actually this is probably the beatitude that Joseph in South Central Pennsylvania was thinking of I'm just saying possibly when he was talking about it is misused as a proof text that we are to be ecumenists even with people who have a different gospel but I'm just assuming

01:26:37

Joseph may have mistakenly mentioned the other beatitude for that but peacemakers obviously would fit into that but please explain what this really means yeah when the

01:26:50

Bible uses that designation son it means one who reflects the identity and calling of the father and that's how it worked in the ancient world if your father was a farmer then you would be a farmer father was a woodworker so it went and so when the father declares from heaven in Matthew 3 this is my beloved son with whom

01:27:15

I am well pleased he is saying this is my chosen one who will reflect me who represents me my vice regent my ambassador now what does it mean for us in this beatitude blessed are the peacemakers we are called to be a peacemaker just like Jesus is

01:27:36

Jesus the prince of peace he came and made peace between God and man when he suffered and died on the cross and was raised from the dead and not only vertically but he made peace horizontally

01:27:48

Jew and Gentile are now one the wall of separation has been abolished and together we are the body of Christ when we follow

01:27:57

Jesus footsteps as peacemakers we demonstrate that we are sons of God as well that we possess the identity and calling that has come to us from the father

01:28:12

Amen and we now come to blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness for theirs is the kingdom of heaven obviously we have to be very careful not to adopt some kind of a quasi

01:28:31

Muslim understanding of this who the Muslims believe if they die in martyrdom while they are in battle or in some way physically giving their life for the furtherance of the religion of Islam they are guaranteed eternal life with Allah this is not what this is saying in fact there have been people who have misused that in regard to Christians for a long time the

01:29:04

Eastern Orthodox Church is very big on this idea that the actual shedding of blood in defense of truth or for the cause of truth is in some way cooperating with the death of Christ on Calvary and I'm sure there are other religions claiming to be

01:29:29

Christian that share something similar but if you could please explain this yeah this

01:29:35

I think is basically a reminder that we follow the suffering servant

01:29:42

Jesus came to die to give his life and through his death came life

01:29:48

I use this theological term that sounds hopelessly convoluted but it's really quite simple and practical the upsilon vector imagine a

01:29:58

U the English U or a horseshoe that describes the contour of Jesus life he came in humility gave his life but in due course he was raised from the dead that's the shape of our experience too in Christ certainly in conversion repentance and faith new life but each and every day we somehow reach the end of ourselves we're the kernel of wheat that falls to the ground and dies and we're in the valley and maybe we're disillusioned but God by his spirit lifts us out in his inexplicable way in his wisdom and that's the pattern and so I think it's a call to follow

01:30:41

Jesus and the example that I use in the book is of Jackie Robinson as it turns out

01:30:49

I had the privilege of being a pastor to one of Jackie's teammates Lee Fund was the pitcher of the

01:30:54

Brooklyn Dodgers and Lee was a serious minded Christian he sat next to Jackie on the bus one of the few players who would and as Jackie told me before he died sorry as Lee told me before he died

01:31:08

Jackie was a convictional Christian who saw his suffering on the ball field as his calling to follow

01:31:16

Jesus and for him it had redemptive significance he told a marvelous story when they were in the locker room

01:31:23

Branch Rickey came in the general manager of the Dodgers and said look

01:31:28

Jackie here's what you can expect on the field and was quite explicit about pitchers throwing fastballs at his head and all the obscenities that would be said to him by the fans are you up for this

01:31:42

Jackie and as Lee told the story he said yes this is what God has called me to do to follow the footsteps of Christ I love that and the thing to keep in mind is

01:31:53

Jackie was no wilting flower he was a man's man UCLA he excelled in football baseball track and field basketball no one could keep up with him he was nearly court -martialed from the army for being told to sit in the back of the bus he refused to do it but he had this vision of Jesus as the suffering servant and I think that's the vision that's presented to us in that statement yeah

01:32:26

I remember the spectacular portrayal of Branch Rickey by Harrison Ford I don't know how accurate it was but I just was a wonderful at least on an entertainment value acting job by Harrison Ford yes yes the movie 42

01:32:47

I enjoyed that very much well we are now we are at the final beatitude that our

01:33:02

Lord has been provided that our Lord has provided for us in this passage blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me rejoice and be glad for your reward is in heaven for your reward in heaven is great for in this same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you what a wonderful encouragement and comfort that is because that is something that most

01:33:40

Christians if they are really public with their faith and every

01:33:45

Christian should be if you're ashamed of the gospel you should be ashamed of yourself and it might be a sign that you're not regenerate if you are always keeping your faith hidden but most of us who are

01:33:59

Christians who are when we are at a dinner table or when we are on a lunch break at work in a secular business or having a reunion with old friends or something and we start bringing up our faith most of us at some level or another will experience what our

01:34:22

Lord is talking to us about in this verse and some in more severe levels than other you could be fired from your job and people are fired from their jobs because of their

01:34:38

Christian faith and nothing happens to their employers as if you know they were fired because they were homosexual or something they would be great they would be great reaction from the government no doubt or from a court of law against someone who fired somebody who was homosexual even if their homosexuality had nothing to do with their termination but this is something that we can all take great comfort in in the daily experiences of our lives and of course this is multiplied thousands of times over with our dear brothers and sisters overseas who are truly experiencing persecution which may even involve torture and death and the death of their families and children but if you could pick up where I left off there yeah it's a sober picture of what happens to a man or woman who follows

01:35:44

Christ if they treated our Master and Lord in that way nailing him to a cross we should not be surprised when we encounter opposition you said it and an example that comes to mind is the

01:36:01

Waldensians I was in Italy for nearly a month in June doing some research for a book on the

01:36:07

Italian Reformation and one of the places I visited was Torre Pellice which is in the

01:36:14

Piedmont area that's where the Waldensians lived and we were told by the scholar there that when they were being persecuted you know it was in the 13th century that they stood against the abuses of Rome and they insisted on the

01:36:30

Bible as the supreme authority and then the 16th century they joined the

01:36:36

Reformation particularly Calvin and the Reformed movement and when they fled from their persecutors they would sing the

01:36:45

Beatitudes isn't that interesting because they understood themselves and their experience in light of what

01:36:53

Jesus told them would come and again this is a timely word for us particularly as we approach this next election year as we grab for the levers of power we want to be in control we need to remember this particular blessing of those who are reviled, those who are misunderstood those who are even persecuted that's what it looks like to follow a crucified

01:37:23

Savior Amen, and that is a beautiful thing to learn I had not heard that about the

01:37:29

Waldensians they sang the Beatitudes and what more beautiful passages of Scripture to sing in fact to my knowledge

01:37:41

I've never heard of anyone stating that our Lord Jesus Christ when he uttered these words

01:37:48

I've never heard that he sang them or that he intended them specifically to be sung but I think it's beautiful that they were and perhaps are being sung and of course there are even modern

01:38:00

Christian artists who have put these wonderful words to music but when you know about a persecuted group like the

01:38:08

Waldensians it's even more meaningful but we have to go to our final break right now and if you have a question

01:38:14

I highly urge you to submit it as quickly as possible because we're rapidly running out of time Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

01:38:21

don't go away, we'll be right back with Chris Costaldo right after these messages from our sponsors The Mid -Atlantic

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Dr. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries will be debating Dr. Gregory Coles author of Single Gay Christian A Personal Journey of Faith and Sexual Identity the debate topic

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I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide. This is a day of great spiritual compromise and yet God has raised

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01:52:52

That's ptlbiblerebinding .com. Welcome back.

01:52:58

We have a question from Findley, Ohio for you, Pastor Chris.

01:53:06

Cindy in Findley, Ohio. Please forgive me if this has been addressed as I am just now tuning into the show.

01:53:15

I have had conversations with several people who claim one can keep the moral law after becoming saved through the power of the

01:53:25

Holy Spirit and say they, I guess she means that, and say that God would never tell us to do something we cannot do.

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I wonder how that person would explain Jesus's command, take up your bed and walk.

01:53:41

But anyway, that was my insertion there. I exclaim, of course he would. He tells us to be perfect.

01:53:48

But apparently they have such a low view of sin, thinking it is just an outward act rather than a condition of the heart, such as Jesus told the

01:53:58

Pharisees, that they think they can achieve sinlessness. But it is not

01:54:03

Jesus giving the Beatitudes, doing what the Scriptures say the moral law also does, showing a person his inability to keep the law to obtain righteousness?

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Is it not like the rich young ruler whom Jesus told to sell all not to obtain righteousness, but to show him the wickedness of his own heart and that he could not keep the law perfectly?

01:54:31

So maybe I'm wrong, but I view the Beatitudes the same way Scripture talks about the moral law.

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That is, it was given to show us our depravity and point us to Christ.

01:54:43

I see the Beatitudes as impossible to keep, and therefore causes us to despair and look to Christ as our only righteousness.

01:54:51

So what do you think about Cindy and Finley Ohio's comments here? Right, thank you,

01:54:58

Cindy. I think you're right in pointing to the heart. That's what Jesus is concerned with.

01:55:03

In his sermon he says, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, right?

01:55:09

Or, as you pointed out, that we are to be perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect. And so these are things we can't do in the flesh.

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Sin continues to be an ongoing obstacle to holiness in its pristine form.

01:55:30

And yet, you know, there's two sides of this horse you can fall off of. One which says, in a

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Pelagian sort of way, I can do this. Cindy's right. No, you can't.

01:55:41

But on the other hand, we can fail to appreciate that God gives us his Spirit.

01:55:46

He does empower us to live in ways that we never could have previously before Christ.

01:55:52

Take the two examples we just mentioned. What does Jesus mean when he says your righteousness must exceed, surpass the scribes and Pharisees?

01:56:01

I think there we have religious rulers with a superficial, legalistic form of righteousness.

01:56:08

It was shallow. Imagine a river. It was just, you know, a foot deep. From a long distance away, it looked impressive. But nothing could grow in it.

01:56:14

It was shallow. And what Jesus is saying, no, life in my kingdom, life that is animated by my

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Spirit, has depth. The heart is actually transformed. This is a deeply Calvinist and Reformed notion that the

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Spirit renovates the heart so that in due course, by sanctification, we can, in fact, live lives that are pleasing to God and reflect his character.

01:56:40

So I want to be careful we don't go too far in either direction. But yes, with Cindy, let's maintain a sober -minded estimation of what we're capable of doing.

01:56:50

Yes, obviously, we wouldn't want antinomians to claim as they do.

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We wouldn't want to approve of what antinomians claim, that how we live is immaterial because it's impossible for us to do anything at all that pleases you.

01:57:09

Right. And this was, of course, the argument against the Reformers at Trent.

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That in faith alone, what they're saying, the Protestants, is all you do is believe without concern for one's lived faith, one's experience of holiness.

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And of course, that's not what the Reformers were saying, but that's the stereotype. And we can unwittingly fall into that trap if we're not careful.

01:57:36

Well, thank you, Cindy and Finley Ohio. You have also won a free copy of Pastor Chris's book.

01:57:43

Send us your full mailing address in Finley, Ohio. If you could, in about a minute's time, summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today,

01:57:52

Pastor Chris. Yeah, the Beatitudes dredge our soul.

01:57:58

Our souls are filled with secular ideas and commitments, just like, you know, they send these units down into the river to dredge it, to get all the particles out there, the sediment.

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That's what the Beatitudes do for us. And I saw a film once of that process of dredging, and I thought, my, if that river had emotions and feelings,

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I'd be crying right now. It's almost violent. But it's necessary in order for life to flourish.

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That's what the Beatitudes do for us. And so let's read them, let's study them, let's memorize them, share them with our children, and allow

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God, by His Spirit, to use them to bring about the gospel renewal that He desires.

01:58:40

Well, we are out of time. I want to make sure that our listeners have all of your contact information.

01:58:49

And first of all, if you would like to visit the church where our guest today,

01:58:57

Pastor Chris Costaldo, is the pastor, which is New Covenant Church of Naperville, Illinois, you can go to newcovenantnaperville .org,

01:59:13

and that's N -A -P -E -R -V -I -L -L -E. And Dr. Chris Costaldo also has his own website, chriscostaldo .com.

01:59:22

And Costaldo is spelled C -A -S -T -A -L -D -O, chriscostaldo .com.

01:59:30

I want to thank you so much for doing such a wonderful job as our guest today,

01:59:35

Dr. Costaldo. I want you back on the program very soon and very often. I hope that you enjoyed the experience as much as I did.

01:59:44

I have indeed. Thank you, Chris. I want to thank everybody who listened, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater