Mormon Missionaries at the Door

is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us, yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence.

Our host is Dr. James White, director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with Dr. White, call now at 602 -973 -4602 or toll -free across the

United States. It's 1 -877 -753 -3202. And now with today's topic, here is

James White. Well, good evening and welcome to the dividing line. My name is

James White and I was just thinking about a time I was sitting, we used to have offices that were sort of public offices in the sense that there was a you know, you could just walk in and I remember sitting in my office once,

I looked out and here came these Jehovah's Witnesses and they came up the stairs and right into our office and we've got a sign right there, you know, and they came in and sat down in our front office and man, we started talking and I remember that was the time the guy told me that no one had believed in the deity of Christ until the 12th century.

I found that one a very very interesting, fascinating, particular discussion but something like that sort of just happened.

I had gone home, it is it's crunch time, okay, tomorrow night in 26 hours well, is that the same time up there?

I think it's the same time as Utah right now, it changes over the weekend. Anyways, about 26 hours from now a debate will begin at the

University of Utah between myself and our Dennis Potter on the nature of the atonement, substitutionary atonement, does the death of Christ perfect anyone?

And then 24 hours after that, Robertson, Jennis and I will be facing off in the mass as a propitiatory sacrifice and so it's crunch time,

I am busily packing things up, printing things out, putting together notes and you know, all the rest of that same type of stuff and so I'm pretty busy and so I decided to run home about 4 .15

grab a bowl of cereal or something like that before the program so that I can come straight back to the house, get a workout in with my son and finish my packing and be ready to get up very early in the morning to head for Salt Lake City.

And I was just reaching for my cereal bowl when out of the corner of my eye, I look out the front door and who's walking past my house but two

Mormon missionaries and so I thought

I wonder if they're gonna come up here, because sometimes they don't, sometimes they just walk right on by because it's that house but no, no, they came right up to the door and and I just started doing this, people ask me you know, how do you approach these folks?

How do you get a conversation started with Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormons? You know what I do anymore I tell them exactly who

I am and what I'm doing that's just what I've, and I have found that it works really well.

I said, hey this is, this is funny, I'm getting ready to leave tomorrow morning to go to the

University of Utah in fact it was funny, it's funny how they started the missionary said, so have you ever seen missionaries like us before?

And I'm like well yeah, a couple thousand of you since I first talked to Elders Reed and Reese back in 1982 and the guy goes that was before I was born.

I felt so horrifically old at that particular point in time as soon as they that was before I was born.

Anyways we had a nice conversation, I'm trying to get hold of Mr. Pierce's attention but he's not paying any attention to me at all anyways, trying to get a little more volume in the old headsets here but hey, he's talking to somebody else,

I'm not all that important at this particular point in time, he just knows I'll just talk and talk and talk and it's no big deal, thank you very much, that's a little bit better.

Anyways I just told him exactly what I, you know, we're going up there, these are the debates we're going to do, these are the debates we've done and then

I mentioned a little book that I wrote and one of them said I'd really like to see that, so hey, you know what, come on over come on over.

So they're just standing five feet from where I am right now, I was showing them my

LDS library, gave them both copies letters to a Mormon Elder it was great, just had a grand old time, told them we were doing the webcast, you know, and a day has left, about five minutes ago,

I sat down here and now I just told you all about it but they left with copies of Letters to a

Mormon Elder in their backpacks and let's hope and pray that they will accomplish what, well you know what,

I've got to share this with you, I was climbing Squaw Peak Monday morning, did

I mention this on Tuesday? You know, sometimes I start losing track of what

I've mentioned and what I haven't, who I've told and who I haven't I don't think I mentioned this on Tuesday on the

Dividing Line since we were late getting it started, but on Monday morning I'm climbing Squaw Peak and I hear someone mentioning,

I use these hiking poles and I heard someone up ahead of me on the trail a little ways mentioning something about poles and then as the guy one guy was coming down, he was asking someone going up where they had gotten them and so I looked up,

I saw the guy, I said yeah, I got mine at REI you know, they're over in Tempe and they work great, take 30 % of the weight off of your take 30 % of the weight off your knees, you're coming down the hill, they're great and I looked a little bit closer at the guy and I normally don't look at folks when

I'm climbing Squaw Peak, if you ever climb Squaw Peak you know why because if you're looking at people you're going to fall off and die but I looked at the guy and I realized

I know this man and it's been a long time but I know this man so I stopped him and I said

I know you and he looked at me and you gotta realize actually

I think I spoke with this fella about 1985 okay so it's been a while and I've changed you know,

I had hair, I had glasses, big glasses I'm wearing massive Oakley Pro M frames, bald as a cue ball and so he's looking at me with a real puzzled look but he hadn't changed hardly at all and I'm looking at him and I go, he says where do you work?

I told him Alpha Omega Ministries, I said did you ever go to North Phoenix Baptist Church? and he goes James, I said yeah and I shook his hand, this was the first Mormon missionary

I ever led to Christ let him out of the church, he's still out this was 18 years ago now and it was really exciting to get a chance to meet him, we didn't get a chance to talk for a long time, we were sort of an awkward spot in the trail there wasn't a lot of room but when he left he shook my hand and he said thank you so much for what you did for me and what you've done for so many others and I just about ran up the rest of the trail to the top because I was cranked at that particular point in time very encouraged and it was really neat so like I said you never know where those books are going to go, where those tracks are going to go stuff like that so pray for those two

Mormon missionaries, they all know God knows who they are, so just pray for the two

Mormon missionaries that Dr. White just spoke to and pray that those books will make it home at least and won't get thrown out or something like that or burned as I've had some things that I've given to more missionaries in the past that's happened then too anyhow 877 -753 -3341 we already have one caller online so if you want to get in today you have questions and comments and stuff about whatever feel free to I'm watching people giving a blow -by -blow discussion of what

I'm saying in the channel because somebody for some reason can't get their real audio to work boy talk about doing it the old -fashioned way anyways 877 -753 -3341 if you'd like to call in, make some comments,

I'm holding the brand new current edition of the Christian Research Journal which one is this?

Volume 25, number 3, 2003 whatever that means and as normally very very well done and if you open it right up to the middle and right where the staple is in the middle of the thing you will see the article is entitled examining

Muslim apologetics and if you look at it on one side has the Bible, the other side has the

Quran somehow they managed to find almost identical editions of the two, they look very much the same and it's by yours truly and it is a it is a discussion of the differences in textual background and perspective in regards to the the

Bible and the Quran and that's in the current edition of the Christian Research Journal if you do not subscribe then you might want to get hold of this one if that sounds like something that's interesting to you, a little article we wrote there so let's go ahead and start clearing the lines from the many people who are calling in actually there's just one moment but if you'd like to call in at 877 -753 -3341 remember this is only an hour -long program these days, we do two hours a week so you get more per week than you did before, more per month but it's only an hour at a particular run there so let's go ahead and talk with Harry in Pennsylvania, hello

Harry Hi, how are you doing James? Doing good. Hey listen, before I ask the question I just have to thank you greatly, somebody recommended to me

Dave Hunt's book, What Love Is This and I just did an internet search and found the open letter and it greatly intrigued me, this was about nine weeks, maybe ten weeks ago and when

I started to read your letter and just started to see all the misrepresentations I'm actually a pastor and I didn't realize my understanding of Calvinism was so thwarted and since then

I've read in Potters Fried and listened to a lot of your mp3s reading Bettner's book and the

Grace book by Boyce and Reichen and you know it almost feels like a second conversion experience it has been absolutely marvelous, you know

I'm so excited to plant a church about six years ago, run about 253 and I just wanted to turn it around and preach the true doctrines of grace and it has been it has just been marvelous, so brother you have no idea what a blessing

Well I'll tell you, well I do in the sense that I recall my own coming to understand those things and I've had such a wonderful blessing in being able to introduce many other people to those things,

I've also, I'm going to tell you straight up, I have encountered many a person who has then in seeking to explain these to others been simply amazed at the emotional response, the unwillingness to to consider the text of scripture and especially in churches

I can tell you about two pastors right now who are either in different churches or are looking to get back in the ministry because they they sought to bring reformation to their churches and the people in the churches would not have it and as a result they then had to leave and now they're not, they jokingly blame me but they do so in the sense of you know

I'm very thankful that you caused me to think through these things and focus what ministry is supposed to be out and things like that but still it's been a challenge for them and I know that that I ended up at a different church after trying and seeking to be faithful,

I mean I don't leave a place easily but eventually the issue of consistency forced me to be in a place where there was a consistency between what

I was saying and what was being preached in the pulpit and I I'm very very thankful that there was a church in my area where I could go where that would be the case for some folks that's a difficult thing so I pray that God will bless you that you know

I have a good friend John Sampson here in the Phoenix area a new American former former

Brit and he's doing the same thing in his church and he's bringing these things out to folks and so far they've shown a real willingness to follow the

Word of God and that's that's what you gotta find out if your people want to know the Word of God and be in obedience to the

Word of God then it's just simply a matter of time and being faithful and applying these things to the entirety of the

Christian life unfortunately if you've got a large contingent of folks that primarily believe what they believe on the basis of tradition rather than a love for the

Word of God that's when issues become difficult that's been my experience anyways that wasn't even your question but I thought

I'd tell you about it and I really appreciate that too already I mean I just feel so fired up about it all and I'm actually doing a

Sunday school which I normally don't and just preaching on the attributes of God the sovereignty of God and and I'm just finding it all over the scriptures

I preach theologically and I can't believe the way the passages are jumping out that I never saw before have you hit

Isaiah 6 yet? in fact I'm going to be hitting

Isaiah 6 because I'm in Revelation 4 this week well there you go I mean I used to have a little tagline on some of the emails

I'd send out may God grant you an interview and then I put Job 38 through 40 and how

God asked Job all these rhetorical questions that had no answers where were you when

I did this? where were you when I did this? there is as you know when God reveals himself to us through his word in that gracious way we are changed we do not see others or ourselves or God in the same way ever again and we can't help but want to share that with those around us especially those who are the closest to us in that relationship of you are a pastor you have a pastor's heart you want to teach the word of God and you want them to have the same experience of seeing the holiness of God have you seen

Sproul's book The Holiness of God? hello? hello! did we lose everybody here?

big man on the other side of the wall? lost the caller oh! please call back

I would love to get the... Harry give us a call back I'm not sure what happened there but we can get

Harry back hopefully we... actually we have two lines busy so is there still one open he can get to?

I hope so Harry give us a call back would love to continue that conversation I was going to say hey track down The Holiness of God by R .C.

Sproul I read that during the same period of time that you're describing in your own life and and could not put it down had to read it in one night had a tremendous impact on me really did so are we going to be able to go to other callers or what are you how are we going to handle this here?

yes I guess that means we'll go to other callers. Harry give us a call back we'll handle your question about Cornelius when you get a chance to call back

Howard in Scott City Kansas Howard are you there? Dr. White. How are you sir?

Good I'm glad to talk to you good talk to you. I really want to say first of all thank you for the potter's freedom

I guess I was a closet Calvinist and it kind of set me free from the closet a closet

Calvinist and I do lay preaching out here in Western Kansas on behalf of the denomination

I'm a part of the American Baptist and it has really helped me out quite a bit I used to drive every single summer when

I was a kid well I wasn't driving because I was a kid but to Kinsley Kansas the south of Lawrence off of 70 there that's more in the central area but all

I remember is it was really really flat but actually it's not as flat as it is out in Western Kansas right and anyway my question for you today is first of all

I do want to thank you for your your show you did on the Seminary Extension idea that seminaries need to go to that I'm actually taking classes with the

Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary and they're doing an extension program over the internet oh I see and it's the first one that I've really found that really works great and although all my professors are part of this class election idea sure yeah and I I'm trying to figure out what none of them have given me any explanation of scripture for it everybody just seems to assert it and I I can't really figure is it just a way to keep free will with the substitutionary theory idea because my my professor just sent me an email and he does he did say that the his view of election

I can actually quoted here meditate mediates excuse me the divine will with the human will

I think both operate in tension it sounds illogical but I can never get past that both exist in scripture when the

Bible talks of the elect I focused upon the corporate aspect of it Jesus Christ was chosen by God is that thing that Jesus is the elect one yeah is that what they're all trying to say yeah in essence and and what it allows folks to do is to is to say yes

I am dealing with the election passages however I'm also holding to a form of either libertarian free will or some strong form of free will the same time and and I just want to allow the tension to exist

I don't want to over theologize the the the text of scripture and come up with a systematic theology as one let these tensions exist and that was real popular when

I was in seminary basically the term tension was used for when a professor was saying the

Bible contradicts itself that's not not saying it's a silly what they're saying but it sounds very there's something right about how it sounds the problem is as you yourself noticed you say well well where's the

Bible say Jesus is the elect one and there's there's one place when he's called the choice elect cornerstone over in Peter's epistles and that's not in Ephesians 1 though it's imported in by most people into Ephesians 1 as if that somehow was part of Paul thinking but in reality when you have the verb elected or chosen the direct object is always personal it's us and the sphere in which it takes place is in Christ is no election outside of Christ but it is very confusing to me as well as to why someone cannot see that the choice is in Christ and it's in union with Christ but Christ is not the one who's chosen

I'm it really doesn't answer any questions and in the fundamental answer to your question as I have heard as have discovered over the years is this is another example where you have tradition

I'm that that in essence I'm destroys exegesis or at least allows a person not to engage in it and so you may have individuals who you know

I don't know if you've listened to the I'm programs we did of he was last summer

I where I responded to Adrian Rogers yeah I'm and I pointed out in one of those programs

I'm that when he was going through Romans chapter 8 verses 29 to 30

August last year thank you that when he got to the subject of justification he did a tremendous job on justification he didn't do a tremendous job in seeing how that fit

Romans 829 to 30 but you see talking about justification is talking about did not impact his tradition and so as exegesis was great but then as soon as he got back into the context of divine sovereignty in election all the sudden the exegesis fell apart again now what can explain that is this something that's being done purposely no it's very obvious to me that Adrian Rogers and many other individuals have at a point in time in their past adopted a particular tradition they do not feel any major pressure to re -examine that tradition they just keep referring to it when encountering those passages when encountering questions from students such as yourself and they move on from there and until there is something something happens in their lives that's going to force them to really think through these things they just keep doing that and I think that Adrian Rogers he he heard these answers long long ago and he's just stuck with them and in my experience generally they don't listen to the questions are being asked to realize their answers really are not giving an answer to the question and instead they tend to start thinking well if this person really starts pushing this then this person sort of is a little bit unbalanced and you know they're sort of they're a hyper

Calvinist or something like that and it's really not the case at all so I really think that what you see there is the power of tradition and you see it

I think I obviously from my perspective the greatest example this and that I've encountered is

Dave Hunt the power of tradition just absolutely I'm keeping him from hearing anything is said to him it will have less effect upon others but still it's the issue of tradition and wouldn't with this affect your view of scripture as far as it you know scripture being

God's decree of what is actually written in scripture even though men wrote it. But see realize there's something

I said to Dave Hunt a long time ago that I think people really need to hear and that is when we're discussing a passage of scripture and he was he was giving me a response on a passage of scripture that was not exegetical was not derived from the text it was isogenical, it was being read into the text and I said

Dave that's your tradition speaking and he said to me James I have no traditions and I said

Dave the man who thinks he has no traditions is the man who is the most enslaved to his traditions and so what you just asked is well wait a minute if that don't they see the relationship between scripture and their tradition well they would say so in fact

I can't hardly think of hardly anyone at Southwestern who would not affirm sola scriptura and the ultimate authority of scripture however if you don't realize that you have a tradition in a particular area then you're not going to examine it and you're not going to see that in essence you're violating a sola scriptura by elevating your tradition because you don't know it's a tradition you just think it's an interpretation but in reality it's a tradition that's been delivered to you it's not based upon the text

I mean I don't know if you've heard the debate that I did with John Sanders who is a avowed

Arminian on the subject of inclusivism but when I asked this man this is a PhD teaching systematic theology and Christian doctrine at Huntington Christian College when

I asked him about John chapter 6 verses 35 to 45 he opens his

Bible looks at it and says in the debate he says well I've never really done any work on this passage and you might sit here and go well wait a minute you've got a

PhD you're teaching this how can that be you just need to realize that's how it works and you can't assume that in these classes that you're taking that this issue has been thoroughly discussed and hashed through it may not have been in fact in many schools it's it's really frowned upon to raise such issues and so it's easy to maintain that kind of tradition so I really think that's where it comes from I appreciate it.

Alright man you keep serving the Lord out there in Kansas and like I said every once in a while though get out of Kansas and see a mountain actually

I'm from New Hampshire so I've been to the Flatlands Alright God bless, thanks for calling.

Thank you. Okay I think we got Harry back from Pennsylvania. Harry are you there?

Yes I am. Hey you just sort of went poof. I heard a click and I was gone. Oh man

I was right in the middle of asking if you had seen R .C. Sproul's book

The Holiness of God You know I'm actually I actually have you on real player running right now and I heard that and I was kind of amazed because this

Tuesday I've only been at this thing about two months nine weeks and this Tuesday night we're starting a men's study going through R .C.

Sproul's Holiness of God. Well there you go. So what I'm trying to do, I figure I'll start there and then from there move into either

Sovereignty or Chosen or Reformed Theology I don't know yet I just need a lot of prayer though.

Oh yeah well yeah and a lot of patience and start with the foundations because if you if you can if you've got people who believe the

Word of God they're under the authority of the Word of God start with the foundations build upon that and you know

I was mentioning my friend John Sampson he hasn't even had to use the buzzwords. You just start let the

Word of God speak let the exegesis speak for itself and then as people start asking questions then you can start bringing in the terminology to help answer it but that's

I think that's the best way to go that it's not guaranteed that it's not going to bring some level of resistance but the point is that's

I think the best best direction to go and once someone grabs hold of what R .C.'s

talking about in the Holiness of God and and really starts to see their own thin God's complete otherness that to me is the most shattering thing that's what shatters the traditions that's what shatters the the false conceptions we have of God and opens up the eyes to the the beauty of God's grace and His power and His holiness and things like that so I think that's really the direction to go.

Well thank you brother it's really had an incredible effect on me. In fact there's at least a couple guys now that I've been

I've been giving them a lot of the MP3s and listening to a lot of Sproul and some of your debates and I just think it's so clear

I can't believe I've been saved 18 years and I've never seen it like I see it now it's like an awakening.

I understand. Listen this is my question I remember hearing you debate once in a Romans 8 -7 passage where the flesh is hostile to God, they cannot submit to the law of God and they cannot please

God and as I'm reading through Acts and I see Cornelius you've probably heard the question before but your prayers and alms have ascended as a memorial before God and then later on Peter when he's speaking he says in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him just to go back to no man fears

God and then when he went up to Jerusalem and he was given the explanation and then in verse 14 of chapter 11 he says a message by which you will be saved so evidently it appears like Cornelius was in an unsafe state yet his prayers ascended as seemingly something pleasing to God and so my question is how does that all fit?

Well I think it's similar to what we have in a number of places in this section of Acts starting about Acts 8 through Acts 12 you have the gospel going out into non -Jewish areas first you have it going down to Samaria and what you have in the situation in Samaria is you have an unusual situation and that is the disciples have to come down and even though these people believe the

Holy Spirit hasn't come upon them we know from first Corinthians that's not normative Acts relates to us a number of non -normative situations here we have

Cornelius here's an individual very clearly God is already active in this person's life it's amazing to me some people actually use this

Pelagians will use it to say see you don't need to have any grace Cornelius was a good guy without God's grace well

I can't believe someone could actually read what Peter says and come to conclusion that means that he was good without God's grace but the point is there was a preparatory work going on in Cornelius' heart however despite that still

God has to go through a miraculous event to send Peter to him and as you pointed out in chapter 11 verse 14 he had to speak to him the gospel by which he would be saved

Cornelius was not in a saved state but obviously God was already working within this man's life and so some people take this and this is the the noble pagan the

Christian pagan is actually how the inclusiveness we use this phrase Cornelius is the Christian pagan well no he wasn't but obviously

God did intend to bring him into relationship with himself and went through miraculous measures to do so by sending

Peter I think it's very similar to what happened I'm not sure if you heard the program we had last week with Peter in the

United Kingdom here's a man who grows up on the border of Afghanistan and Pakistan no missionaries outside of a missionary who came through at one point and left the

New Testament here the New Testament functions the same way Peter did for Cornelius and he reads the

New Testament and he embraces Jesus Christ as Lord without anyone preaching to him in the case of Peter that was on the program just through the ministration of the of the

Word of God it was just absolutely fantastic to hear his testimony I'm not sure if you didn't get a chance to hear it you might want to listen to the archives and catch that I guess another thing that was kind of giving me comfort in it all was verse 18 of 11 where it says

God has granted repentance to the Gentiles and it really does seem like the

Lord is initiating I mean sending the angels supernaturally right I think the problem is if we try to make

Cornelius normative it causes all sorts of problems and that's what happens when we're in Acts there are a number of things here deacons generally are not teleported to do evangelism today okay you know

I mean with Philip you know and the same thing you've got apostles active here and you've got two things going on here you've not only got

Cornelius but you've also you can't forget part of this is for Peter right

Peter is still very much entrenched in his tradition and God has to basically in a supernatural way hit him upside the head three times with a vision to get him to understand what it means do not call what

I have called clean unclean and so he's working Cornelius' life when

Peter comes in he sees this and that's what confirms in his thinking what God has revealed to him

God has brought me this place God is working these people's lives God is bringing the gospel to the

Gentiles it's not just for the Jews anymore so I really think that's what's going on the text well thank you brother just just quickly are you on your on Thursday night and any other we're on Tuesday mornings at 11 a .m.

Mountain Standard Time and I think over the weekend this is going to change as to what time that is for you because here in Arizona we don't play with our clocks we we we respect that God is the maker of time you just set your clock and let it run the rest you folks play with your clocks as if you have power over time you know we don't do that so next week it'll be an hour different if you're where you located?

I'm in Pennsylvania, we're turning the clocks ahead I'm assuming it'll be 12 o 'clock next week for me actually the other direction because we become the same time as California next week

I believe so I think it'll be a three -hour difference so right now it's two -hour difference because it's 534 here so however you figure it out we're all on the same time 11 a .m.

on Tuesday mornings Mountain Standard Time and 5 p .m. Thursday evenings Mountain Standard Time. Thank you very much.

Alrighty God bless you brother. You too. Hey we went a little bit over on that one so we're gonna need to take our break but we have another caller online and lines open for you at 877 -753 -3341 we'll be right back

On the Word It's all above His holy name

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What is Dr. Norman Geisler warning the Christian community about in his book Chosen But Free? A New Cult?

Secularism? False Prophecy Scenarios? No, Dr. Geisler is sounding the alarm about a system of beliefs commonly called

Calvinism He insists that this belief system is theologically inconsistent, philosophically insufficient, and morally repugnant

In his book, The Potter's Freedom, James White replies to Dr. Geisler But The Potter's Freedom is much more than just a reply

It is a defense of the very principles upon which the Protestant Reformation was founded Indeed, it is a defense of the very gospel itself

In a style that both scholars and laymen alike can appreciate, James White masterfully counters the evidence against so -called extreme

Calvinism Defines what the Reformed faith actually is and concludes that the gospel preached by the

Reformers is the very one taught in the pages of Scripture The Potter's Freedom, a defense of the

Reformation and a rebuttal to Norman Geisler's Chosen But Free You'll find it in the Reformed Theology section of our bookstore at aomen .org

Millions of petitioners from around the world are employing Pope John Paul II to recognize the Virgin Mary as co -redeemer with Christ Elevating the topic of Roman Catholic views of Mary to national headlines and widespread discussion

In his book, Mary, Another Redeemer, James White sidesteps hostile rhetoric and cites directly from Roman Catholic sources to explore this volatile topic

He traces how Mary of the Bible, esteemed mother of the Lord, obedient servant and chosen vessel of God, has become the immaculately conceived bodily assumed queen of heaven viewed as co -mediator with Christ and now recognized as co -redeemer by many in the

Roman Catholic Church Mary, Another Redeemer, is fresh insight into the woman the

Bible calls blessed among women and an invitation to single -minded devotion to God's truth

You can order your copy of James White's book, Mary, Another Redeemer at aomen .org

Just singing along with Steve there. That's not the normal one we use, is it? That was Pilgrim's Progress. Anyways, welcome back to Dividing Line.

We have about 20 minutes left on the program. Got them backwards, huh?

I wonder what the story was there. It sounded a little bit different. Anyways, 877 -753 -3341 877 -753 -3341 is the phone number if you would like to get in.

I mentioned I was in Normal, Illinois last week and one of our regular channel folks,

E. Nielsen, came down. One other guy who will remain nameless because he never shows up anyways but one other guy was supposed to come but he wouldn't.

Anyways, Eric was there At one point, we were going to go into Fazoli's.

I happen to like Fazoli's. I think they have great food. I started doing an accent.

The people in the channel get really angry with me when I do accents. But I started to do

CDS. I started to do Colin Smith accent. Actually, he said

I did a very good job of it because I didn't overdo it a lot but just the way a

British person when they've been here in the United States for a while they still got a little bit of that.

Anyways, he said it was pretty good. It was fun. Anyways, Steve in New Jersey is joining the program.

He wants to comment on last week's show with Peter. Yes, it was a wonderful time. Steve, are you there?

Yes, I am, Dr. White. How are you doing, sir? Good. I wanted to comment on Peter.

I thought it was excellent and one of the better ones. Not that any of them are bad but one of the better programs we've had because of that.

I was just very much blessed, I guess, is the way to say it from hearing that.

I thought Peter's story makes us think of the freedoms we have and the freedoms that other people don't have and the sovereignty of God in all the affairs of man.

I did want to pass that on to you to have more of those if you can.

When you have the opportunity, go ahead and do it. We really haven't had as much opportunity since we started doing the webcast until we got the phone system just recently to be able to do that in any meaningful fashion.

Now that we have it, I'm not a real good networker. That came up through the chat channel.

As more opportunities come up, I'm trying to get Derek Webb on the program to talk about his stuff.

I'd like to have more guests but I'm not real good at chasing people around like a producer to try to do that.

When opportunities come up, I too was extremely encouraged to think about the fact that God's Word has that kind of power even in the midst of utter darkness.

What kind of light was there? Yet there you have the Word of God and it has that power and accomplishes what

God intends it to accomplish. That's right. I'd also like to encourage Harry, if he's still listening, to continue on.

I've had people tell me, you're not New Testament. Why would they say that?

That I'm not New Testament? No, that I'm not New Testament. They'll say when we talk about an issue or something, that's not

New Testament. This sort of comment. Not knowing how to answer it.

Of course, you're challenging their traditions and what they've been taught. But to expect those things and just smile when

God reveals it to them, he will reveal it to them. We sometimes want him to operate on our timetable rather than his.

I'm also pleased that we are going on Daylight Savings Time because I can get home a lot easier when your program is on 8 o 'clock instead of 7 o 'clock.

Well, it will be at 8 o 'clock. You're exactly right. That will put us into California time.

We tried it once here, but the problem was during July, you'd try to go to bed at 10 o 'clock at night and the sun was still up and it was 107 degrees.

It just didn't work. So we said, forget it. I also have a little bit of a complaint. A couple of weeks ago, you were doing a program on solar scriptura.

I don't know. And you were talking about the popes and the people, Cardinal Cayetan.

Yes. And you were going through all the details and the logic. You got to sort of a mundane part and you said that you're all asleep.

Yeah. I remember making a comment about people being asleep. It was so mundane. I wasn't asleep.

Oh, was that on the Apocrypha? Yeah. It was on the Apocrypha. Right, right. Well, no,

I can tell there were some in the channel that were starting to flatline, actually. There are some folks we have in the channel that just, you know, after about 20 minutes of that stuff, they're gone.

But no, that's good stuff. And that was when we were supposed to have the debate and it didn't work out, right?

I believe so. Yeah, right. I believe so. I do appreciate church history and even when you get into the details and it does get pretty much mundane at times, it still gives you insight into what was going on.

Oh, yeah. I don't know if you ever heard my Sunday School lessons.

Yes, I have. Yeah, we did a whole series on church history. I don't think we've posted all of them yet, but we must have gone years on that subject.

Who was the guy that they hung up in that chapel for 300 years? And what was the name of the church?

John. Oh, gracious. John of Leiden.

And I don't have anything in front of me. I'm just going off the top of my head here. I believe it was John of Leiden. It was when the combined

Catholic -Lutheran army defeated the... And this is where, in fact, it's interesting.

I've been having a conversation or tried to have a conversation with someone just about this recently. They called him Anabaptist, but they were, you know, they were just part of the

Radical Reformation. And they took over Munster and established polygamy and all sorts of other weird things.

And the combined army defeated them. John of Leiden was put into a cart, dragged through the streets.

People were allowed to poke him with things through the bars of the cart until he was dead.

And then they hung the cage up there. And it came down somewhere around World War I.

Yeah, just before the First World War. Yeah. Yeah. So that was meant to be a very long -term warning because for many people, the

Anabaptists, and again, that's a misuse of that term, but that was what was used, they were the very sign of anarchy.

And that was meant to be a warning. There will be no anarchy in issues of government or church in this place.

So that's really what it was all about. I'm not sure what it was like to worship in that place the first few years, personally.

Mommy, I don't want to sit in this pew. It's right underneath the decaying man. What was that odor the first week?

Yes, that's right. It was up pretty high, I guess. I don't know that they would have smelled it, but eventually something had to fall out of there.

So that's just an amazing thing. But anyways, trivia of church history. Yes, indeed.

That's right. All right. Well, thank you, sir. It sounds like your dog's hungry. Well, yes, he is.

Always hungry. Sounds like a big dog, so they are always hungry. Actually, we've got two beagles. That's a beagle?

Yes, and they're 13 years old. Oh, okay. All right. All right, sir. Well, thanks for calling in.

You take care. All right. God bless. Bye -bye. 877. That sounds like a big dog, but I guess beagles do have that sort of woo type thing.

Okay, I won't do dog stuff either. Y 'all were mocking me for my British accent.

Have you noticed on the war coverage, though, all these British commandos? Oh, yes, I think we really took it to them today, you know.

So funny. Yes, I know. I saw that. We're getting there. We've got time. It's 547, man.

Be patient. All right. 877 -753 -3341. Let's talk to Greg up in Michigan about 1

Timothy 410. Hi, Greg. Hi. Second time caller. Well, congratulations. Just a quick question on 1

Timothy 410. I have a neighbor who believes in universalism.

Universal atonement or universalism? Well, that everybody is saved.

Can be or will be? It can be. Oh, okay. He doesn't believe in limited atonement. And so I've listened to some of your tapes, and I've tried to explain them in the various passages when it says all men, often that means all kinds of men.

But this one's a little bit tough, because it says that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the

Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe. Is that saying that whether somebody believes in Christ or not,

He is the only Savior, whether somebody believes in Him or not, but especially for those who believe in Him?

Yeah, I think the way to understand this is... He's the only God, whether people believe in Him or not.

Exactly. He's the only Lord. He is the only Creator. I think that is the...

You're right on target in recognizing that when this distinction is drawn, and you have this...

the Greek term is malasta, especially of believers, that's a very strong...

It really isn't communicating what we frequently think of as in, well, this is a little bit more so.

Very frequently it indicates a completely different kind of relationship.

And so God... And it's interesting, some people would question exactly what

Paul's referring to here, because the term soter, Savior, is almost always used of the

Son. And yet he uses theos, God, in verse 10, fixing our hope in the living

God. There seems to be an interchange, an interplay here one way or the other. And if he is in fact referring to Christ here, to the

Son, this would be a reference to the deity of Christ. But in any case, the point is that the living

God is the only Savior there is, just as he's the only God, he's the only Lord. Whether they replace him, whether they denigrate him, whether they have their own idols that they put in the way, he's the only one who really is.

And it's believers who know that. I would sort of parallel it with Paul's statement to the Corinthians, when he talks about there is only one...

everything has been made through God the Father by Jesus Christ, and he says not all men have this knowledge.

It is a universal truth, but not all men have this knowledge, and hence there's issues of idolatry and things like that.

And it's interesting, here's another example, just like we have in most of the other passages that are frequently asked, this is not a passage that's specifically discussing the extent or purpose or intention of the atonement.

It's an inference drawn from phraseology that isn't actually about the specific subject we're talking about.

And that's, for me anyways, that's been one of the things that over the years has solidified my understanding of Reformed theology, is that when you go to the passages like Hebrews 10, like Hebrews 7, like Hebrews 9, and you can start, you can walk all the way through a passage, the passage is specifically on the subject you're addressing, that is, the atonement, intention of the atonement, effect of the atonement, relationship with intercession, all the rest of that stuff, and you can consistently walk through a major section of Scripture and come up with a consistent interpretation, whereas the other side is forced to take a phrase like this that's not even talking about the specific intention of the atonement, and by inference build, well, if He's the

Savior of all men, that means He's the Savior potentially of all men, and read into it some sort of a hopeful interpretation that then,

I guess, in some way, shape, or form, vitiates the interpretations of Hebrews or whatever other passages we're looking at.

So, I think you're right on the money with what you were thinking of initially,

He just doesn't want to hear the other verses from John. Well, and see, that's just it. There's just nothing, you know, you can go to John 10, you can go to Galatians 2, you can go to 2

Corinthians 5, you can go to all these passages and talk about the intention and the purpose of the atonement, but if a person is not willing to go there, and believe me,

I hear this constantly, if what you hear is, well, you know, it just says it over there, it's just plain as can be, and therefore,

I just don't want to discuss this anymore, what you've done is you've stepped on traditional toes, and all you can do is try to, in the most non -personally offensive way you can, warn of the role of tradition, and really try to emphasize the need to bring all of our traditions into the light of the

Word of God, because many of the people you and I are talking to don't realize how incredibly powerful their traditions are, because they don't realize they have traditions.

And so, the best you can do is to keep speaking the truth, and sometimes some folks just say, look, we're not going to discuss this anymore, and it's sad, but you pray about it, and you go,

Lord, keep me from ever getting to that point myself, or if I was there, thank you for delivering it from me, but please,

Lord, help this one of yours to listen to what your Word has to say. And you know,

God has ways of doing that that we, you and I, never even see Him coming. I've seen folks who at one point were just extremely negative to what

I had to say, and then six months later, they come to me, and they say, you know what, you were right, and then they tell me the story of how they came to find that out, and I'm just shocked.

I would never have believed the story that they end up telling me. God uses all sorts of wild circumstances to bring them at it from a completely different perspective that I could never have planned, so I've got to leave it in His hands.

If I really believe it was God, by His Spirit, that subdued my rebellion, and made me love

His sovereignty and His freedom, and trust Him in those matters, then it's got to be the exact same grace for anyone else.

Well, thanks very much for taking my call. Hey, thanks for calling today, Greg. God bless. All right, well,

I love when we have great callers.

I mean, this hour has flown by. There's been no down spots, no trying to fill in.

I've talked about everything I wanted to talk about, mentioned the article and stuff like that, and then great callers, encouraging callers.

It is encouraging to hear from these folks who are zealous for God's truth.

They want to speak the truth. They want to deal with these issues and are zealous for God's glory.

And you know what? No two of them are in the same state. This is something that is so encouraging to me, is to see that God has

His people all across this world. And you know, in the last couple moments we have here, obviously everyone knows, and if you're listening by archive, you will know the outcome of all these things, but we don't know today.

The United States, Great Britain, Australia, especially primarily, and Poland, 200

Polish soldiers, don't forget them, are involved in war in Iraq right now.

And I know that that's become a little more personal for me of late.

Last year I got to know some Marine majors, some majors in the United States Marines, reformed men who listened when they could.

They listened to this program. They listened to the dividing line. They listened to the debates that we've done. And I got to know them and we sort of did some correspondence.

Well, I've gotten back in touch with them. They're deployed. They're in Kuwait and Iraq. And that's made it more personal to know these men, to know that there are

Christians out there who are continuing to seek to serve and honor the Lord, even in very difficult situations.

It's very warm over there right now. They've sent me some pictures, and man,

I'm going to tell you, that's a miserable place to be when the heat hits.

No two ways about it. But I was also thinking about the fact that I taught

Bible at a Christian high school last year, and one of my students, a woman, now a 19 -year -old woman, went into Iraq today as an

MP. She's a reservist. And so I'm praying for those people.

I mean, all of them are in a very dangerous situation.

We know that. You do not have to be on the front lines there in any way, shape, or form to be in danger in those places.

And so, you know, I pray for those individuals. I hope that you've maybe taken time to track down some folks and to help to encourage them.

They want to hear from folks back here on the home front that we are thinking about them, that we have not forgotten about them, and I certainly am seeking to do so.

And I know that I read today the report from the CNN reporter about the 19 -year -old

Marines who wanted to see their sergeant, get a chance to use a satellite video phone to talk to his wife who's pregnant.

And then when the CNN reporter asked the other young soldiers who wants to call home first, they all said, actually, if it's all the same for you, sir, we'd like to call the parents of our friend who was killed in action on the 23rd near al -Nasiriyah to see how they're doing.

And the reporter couldn't hardly speak. He was completely broken up, and all he could say is, where do they get young men like this?

And that really touched me, and we've got some very, very, very fine folks over there.

We need to pray for them, and I hope you'll do that. Thanks for joining us today on The Dividing Line. It's been a great program.

Thanks to the callers. God bless all of you. We'll see you next Tuesday. Be praying for us as we do our debate this weekend at the

University of Utah. Tomorrow night, the night after that, I appreciate your support. We'll see you next week.

God bless. Also, find us on the

World Wide Web at aomin .org. That's A -O -M -I -N dot O -R -G, where you'll find a complete listing of James White's books, tapes, debates, and tracks.