Aug. 17, 2015 Show with Dean Davis on “Amillennialism” [End Times 6-Day Marathon]

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio

platform on which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron so one

man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we

converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another

wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear

from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host, Chris.

Arnson.

Welcome to the Iron Sharpens Iron podcast.

During the broadcast and recording of this episode, we experienced technical difficulties that affected the quality of the

audio.

In particular, Chris Arnson's extended introduction of the week's theme was largely unintelligible.

Although we cannot currently restore the original audio, what follows is more or less what

Chris said.

This is the first time on the new Iron Sharpens Iron that we have focused six days in a row on one

theme.

This is the first day of a six -day marathon on end times, or last days, or

eschatology.

On every single day for the next six days, we are going to have representatives defending the major views of

eschatology.

Today, for instance, our guest Dean Davis is going to be representing Amillennial Eschatology.

Tomorrow, Tuesday, August 18th, we are going to be featuring Pastor Ron Glass of

Wading River Baptist Church and Michael Vlock of the Master's Seminary, who are going to be

discussing pre -tribulational premillennialism.

On Wednesday, August 19th, we have Barry Horner of John Bunyan

Ministries and James Hamilton, who are going to be defending historic premillennialism.

And then on Thursday, August 20th, we're going to have Alan Kirshner, a blogger for Dr.

James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries, and Vince Sawyer, a retired pastor

and itinerant evangelist, who are both going to be defending the pre -Wrath Rapture view.

On Friday, the 21st of August, we're going to be featuring John Jefferson Davis,

author and professor at Gordon -Conwell Theological Seminary, and a Reformed Baptist

pastor from Ohio, Fred Pugh, who are both going to be defending the traditional understanding

of post -millennialism.

And then on next Monday, the final day of our six -day marathon, Monday, August

24th, we're going to feature John Otis and also Jeff Durbin of Apologia TV,

Apologia Radio, and Apologia Church, who are going to be presenting theonomic post

-millennialism.

And now, we join Iron Sharpens Iron In Progress with our host, Chris

Arnzen.

So.

There you go, we have a really rich week of diverse brethren who all, though,

believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

They believe in the salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

And they differ, though, at times very strongly on eschatology,

and that is why we are having this six -day marathon, because there are many brethren in Christ

who may have a heart beating as one, they may even be sitting in the same pew, but

they disagree on matters of eschatology, which brethren in Christ throughout the centuries

have disagreed on, even if in many cases they agreed on many of the pillars of the faith

and had much in common.

But let me introduce our first guest.

Our first guest today is Dean Davis, and he holds degrees in philosophy and theology,

and he is a member of Mercy Hill Church and the director of Come Let Us Reason,

a Bible teaching ministry specializing in apologetics and worldview studies.

And he is the author of the book, The High King of Heaven, Discovering the Master Keys

to the Great End Time Debate.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the first time ever on Iron Sharpens Iron, Dean Davis.

It's a great pleasure to have you for the first time, Dean, and first of all, let me

ask you, I know that your book is an outline, or it's more than an outline, it's a massive

volume here that we have.

It's one of the largest works in eschatology I've ever seen, actually.

It's over 720 pages.

This is a very thorough and in -depth work on amillennialism, not only larger than

most I've seen on amillennialism, but larger than most I've seen on any eschatological view.

Why did you find the need to write The High King of Heaven in light of the fact that other men,

both old from days past and new, contemporary authors, have addressed this issue?

What's different about The High King of Heaven that you felt the need to write it?

After I graduated from seminary, the

topic of eschatology, I went

through

seminary, I was intrigued with the view, and I studied it, and I'd

say over the course of about a year, I was pretty fully persuaded that this was the Bible,

and I'm the kind of a guy that sort of likes to think while he writes,

and I always think it's good for there to be two or three or more witnesses to the truth, so I thought it

would be good to try to write a book.

So I tried and tried and tried for about three or four years, and I couldn't succeed.

I've been

writing in

eschatology

for many years.

I thought it was time, an opportune time, to put together

the book.

I think I was basically

definitive on this question, the Herkimer's book, The Bible and the Future, that

was one that was very influential in changing my thinking, but I felt that

there was a weak link in most defenses of amillennialism,

and that was a mislead and thoroughly

testament text that our premillenarian brothers embrace, and

I recognize that, and why so many

evangelicals cling to premillennialism, is that they want to honor scripture

by interpreting Old Testament prophecies of the kingdom in a literal manner.

If my book brings anything

to the New Testament doctrine of the kingdom of God, what's its true nature,

what's its true structure?

Secondly, how in fact did the apostles handle those Old Testament kingdom prophecies?

Did they use a literal hermeneutic like our premillenarian brothers do, or did they handle them more

figuratively?

And then

thirdly, I wanted to

go back

to the Old Testament text.

So, time in world culture, in American culture, and I

certainly do believe

from my theology that the Church will pass through what traditionally is called

the Great Tribulation, I'll deal with that term a little bit later, I prefer to call it the Last Battle,

and that we

would be ready for adequately

equal time that the Church must pass through before she sees the

Lord return in glory.

So, that's the question, I'll answer more if you have more questions on it.

Well, I better have more since this is a two -hour program.

Well, since this is on amillennialism, what is

the thousand -year reign, often referred to as the Millennium of Jesus Christ, that is

referred to in Isaiah 2, Isaiah 42,

Isaiah 11, and other places?

Give us an amillennial perspective on what this means, and obviously, I should have

said this at the outset, there are many different types of amillennialists, well, at

least there are several, but there are probably many, just as each of the other

categories of eschatology are.

No doubt, there's going to be diversity, there's going to be people who are going to protest that their

particular view is not being adequately represented,

and so what, let's start off with that, what is the Millennium?

Revelation chapter 20, into four sections, and each of

which deals with this

mystery, with a lot of different points of view on that,

I think have two views of

those thousand

years' future.

You

mentioned Revelation 20, where we have the binding of Satan, and

obviously you very frequently will hear those of the pre -millennial

views mocking the idea that Satan could possibly be bound now due to

the wickedness that is overwhelming the earth, can you tell us what you mean, what

you mean, or what amillennialists in general mean by the binding of Satan in Revelation 20?

Sections,

the

section of the

Last

Judgment,

and

then

in

chapter

7, you

get a

little,

probably

not, but

the

power

to

bind the

dragon,

they should

not be,

from

coming

to

Christ,

he's

gathering,

so

that's

a long

answer.

So, would you say this has a lot to do, in reference to the nations not being deceived by

Satan, do you think that has a lot to do with the fact that with the coming of

Christ and the New Covenant, the Gentiles were being ushered into the kingdom

in mass like never before, would that have something to do with the nations not being deceived by Satan?

Yeah, yes, my point was that the

Satan not deceiving the nations, is that in some part relating to the

fact that the Gentile nations are coming into the kingdom

like they never were before in the Old Covenant, with the ushering in of the New Covenant and

Jesus Christ himself.

Oh,

I've got it here now, yeah, I'm sorry, I, see, let me explain to our

listeners what's going on here, our brother has a hearing problem, so I've been

having to switch things on the studio board like I've never had to do before, and I

appreciate your patience, those who are listening, but as I was saying, the deception of the

nations that is not going to be happening during this thousand years, referred to in

Revelation 20, is that somehow correlated with the fact that the New

Covenant, in the New Covenant, with the dawn

of Christ in the flesh and his sacrifice

and his resurrection and so on, that the Gentile nations, like never before, were being

ushered into the kingdom of God, and does that have some kind of connection with the reference to the nations not

being deceived?

The hour has come

for the Son

of Man

to be

good

and

dies,

it remains by

itself alone,

but if it dies, it,

Bishon history,

disciples into all the

nations who are sort

of symbolized or represented there

by these Greeks, so that's exactly what you have, think back to

Luke chapter 4, the devil took Jesus up to a high mountain, he showed

him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time, and he said, if you'll just bow down to worship me,

all of these I will give to you, they've been handed over to me, a

little old Israel and maybe a

handful of Gentiles who had found their way into Israel were deceived by Satan, they

were bound by him, they were blinded to the truth of God.

Now that the gospel

has

come into the world,

the

church

will no longer be able to deceive,.

Christ will have his people.

So that would be the glorious and wonderful part of the millennium, that

the other views, especially the pre -millennial views, cannot conceive

why this would be so glorious, because they see nothing but wickedness

getting worse, and they see, you know, I mean, we've reached things in this nation where

there is same -sex marriage, abortion is off the charts, and the numbers of millions of children

being murdered, and in their view, the millennium, Christ is actually physically present,

so he is raining with a rod of iron and so on, and therefore the

wickedness that we see now in their scenario of an earthly millennium with Christ

physically present, they see that to be much more of an improvement or a glorious

hope.

If you could contrast your view of the millennium with that, and why you still view it as something

to be precious and something to praise God about.

Well, of course, that seems to

me especially true of our

dispensational brothers,

the

amillenarians

have a

realistic

view, a

much more

optimistic view, you have

two sons of the king,

two crops are predestined

to grow side by side

until

the

end of the age, will return and affect the final separation, that's the

consummation, the end of the age.

So what's optimistic and what's pessimistic?

I say the amillennium for these reasons, in the

parable

of no longer be deceived

from coming to cry, to a

grateful and a

beautiful

reason, guilty

and

trial and tumult,

that we try to portray the millennium

as Christ is reigning, our

monastery

will

compel

them

to admit

that there is still sickness,

and they're suddenly going to all

rebel against and attack the holy city and the camp of the saints, something

is wrong with

that picture.

We're.

Going to be going to a break right now, if you have a question of your own for Dean Davis regarding amillennialism,

write to us at chrisarnsen at gmail .com at c h r i s a r n z e

n at gmail .com and please when you write, we ask of you to

include your first name, your city and state,

your country of residence, if you are outside of the USA,

and we ask of you to only remain anonymous if this is involving something

personal or private, but obviously this subject that we have today wouldn't normally lend

itself to that type of question.

So email us as soon as you can, we would love to hear from you at chrisarnsen

at gmail .com, that's chrisarnsen at gmail .com, don't go away, we'll be right back

with Dean Davis and his discussion on amillennialism.

Hi, I'm Chris Millinger.

Support for Iron Sharpens.

Iron Radio comes from Thriven Financial, where faith and finances connect for good.

Thriven helps its members be wise with money and live generously.

Nearly two and a half million Christians count on Thriven to help them protect their families and strengthen the communities

where they live, work and worship.

To learn more about what makes Thriven unique, contact me at 717 -254

-6433.

We know we were made for so much more than

life.

Lending faith, finances and generosity, that's the Thriven story.

I'm James White of Alpha Omega Ministries.

The New American Standard Bible is perfect for daily reading or in -depth study.

Used by pastors, scholars and everyday readers, the NASB is widely embraced and trusted as a literal and readable

bible translation.

The NASB offers clarity and readability while maintaining high accuracy to the original languages which the NASB is known

for.

The NASB is available in many editions like a topical reference bible.

Researched and prepared by biblical scholars devoted to accuracy, the new topical reference bible includes contemporary

topics relevant to today's issues.

From compact to giant print bibles, find an NASB that fits your needs very affordably at nasbible

.com.

Trust, discover and enjoy the NASB for yourself today.

Go to nasbible .com.

That's nasbible .com.

Tired of box store Christianity?

Of doing.

Church in a warehouse with all the trappings of a rock concert?

Do you long for a more traditional and reverent style of worship?

And how about the preaching?

Perhaps you've begun to think that in -depth biblical exposition has vanished from Long Island.

Well, there's good news.

Wedding River Baptist Church exists to provide believers with a meaningful and reverent worship experience

featuring the systematic exposition of God's word.

And this loving congregation looks forward to meeting you.

Call them at 631 -929 -3512 for service

times.

631 -929 -3512.

Or check out their website at wrbc .us.

That's wrbc .us.

Welcome back.

This is Chris Arms and your host of Iron, Sharp, and Zion.

If you've just tuned us in, today is the beginning of our six -day

eschatology marathon.

And for the next six days, we are going to be going over all of the major

views on eschatology.

And today we are discussing amillennialism.

And we have a representative of that view of eschatology, or end times, or last things,

or last days.

He is the author of The High King of Heaven.

And Dean Davis is also a member of the Mercy

Hill Church.

And he is going to be addressing, as I said earlier today,

the amillennial position.

And I have to read a quote by a well -known brother in Christ

that is known to people across the board eschatologically, C.

Samuel Storms.

Dr. Sam Storms writes of Dean's book, the most sweeping and comprehensive

book on eschatology that I've ever encountered.

The scope of this book is simply breathtaking.

And that is quite a commendation since Sam Storms wrote his own book on eschatology.

So he's been quite a promoter of.

Your work, hasn't he, brother?

So I'm just

talking to you

on my regular phone.

Hopefully.

The people...

Well, that sounds great.

That sounds great, brother.

And let's go back into our discussion where we left off.

And please be patient with me, listeners, as I switch back and forth here because of our brother's hearing problem.

And sometimes I may forget to switch back and forth the

correct knobs that I'm supposed to be hitting here.

But you were talking about optimistic versus pessimistic

eschatology earlier.

And the post -millennialists will obviously say, well, you're far too pessimistic no matter what

view you take.

Their view, of course, and it varies, there are no one set of

beliefs held by post -millennialists, but they, for the most part, either believe that all of

the Earth's inhabitants will become Christian or will at least bow to

godly law, or that the majority will.

And what is your view of the future of planet Earth prior to the

return of Christ?

Do you see only a remnant remaining faithful or being obedient to godly law?

Or do you see a close parallel to what a post

-millennialist might say?

Your view of eschatology in the proper place, which is in the

gospels and in the epistles supplemented by the book of Acts, rather than try to cobble

together an eschatology based on Old Testament prophecies or based on the

book of Revelation, you will see that pervasively the New

Testament authors recognize that

the disciples told

us, first of all, all who

live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.

Six, on spiritual warfare,

the entire pilgrimage in this Earth will be wrestling and fighting

and struggling in the present darkness, as it

says in the RSV version.

I like that translation.

So, again, the premise, the assumption is that to

Satan, with the acceptance of the Father, has

given to his son and who are called out of darkness into his marvelous light.

I don't see any New Testament justification for the idea

of becoming better and better to such a degree that

Christ will return to a Christianized world.

In fact, if I were to respond to your question, I would say the opposite seems more likely to be true.

Jesus said that in the last days

lawlessness will

betray their parents and parents will put their children to death,

brotherhood will be

demanding, and that Christ's particular point

is relatively little flock.

So, I don't know the objective answer to that, but that seems to me to be the

tendency of the Olivet Discourse and other texts in the Bible.

If you could, even though this is not our main theme, if you could define preterism,

because there are even amillennialists that would

define themselves as partial preterists, and, of course, many

more postmillennialists do, although not all.

In fact, I do have two separate days being dedicated to postmillennialism

during this marathon because of the fact that one of the reasons is because of the fact that postmillennialists

disagree on preterism and on theonomy.

But if you could give us a definition of preterism and let us know.

If at all you would embrace that ideology.

There's a section in my book where I describe

both partial preterism and full preterism,

which just means

pad.

The gist of preterism,

let me just

summarize it

broadly.

The gist of preterism is

that

preterist

world evangelism has already been complete.

Antichrist has already arisen.

Tribulation in 70 AD.

Titus came.

There's a great deal of emphasis

on the Olives' saying to the effect that we

can place.

Full preterist

basically says, now living in the new heavens

and the new earth.

The partial preterist says that, well, the gospel has been

cleared.

That would be Nero, for

example.

And the tribulation has occurred because Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD.

So the next big event to come is the second coming of Christ.

Now, the reason I object to this is for the same reason that I would object to post

-millennialism and dispensationalism.

It leaves Christ's church unprepared for the last battle, for the final assault of

Satan and his powers against the church.

Really develop at some length in my book because there are over 15 Old Testament and New

Testament prophecies dealing with a final end -time assault of the

nations inspired by Satan and led by the Antichrist against the church.

The preterist view says, oh, that's already happened under Nero.

And then you throw in some post -millennial optimism and one day soon the Jews will be converted and the world

will get better and better.

I think that's setting us up for a horrific disappointment.

I think we should be girding up the loins of our mind right now and recognize that it is possible.

I'm not predicting anything here, but I certainly think it's possible that we are entering into the

kind of the final end -time agony of the church.

We see so many thousands and thousands of brothers and sisters all across the pond

giving their life for the gospel.

Us here in America, I don't think we should expect anything different, and I think we should be

ready just in case these are the means of the

end indicating that the Lord will return.

In regard to what you said,.

Uh, tell us something about in detail what this great

rebellion you describe will be like.

And how the church is to be equipped to fight

it.

I had to talk about them at some length, but

the kind of the locus classicus of this,

of this, in Thessalonians chapter two,

at the end of the age of

lawlessness,

a little bit here on my, um,

well, while you're, while

you're.

Looking, I could just repeat our email address.

If anybody listening would like to email a question for Dean Davis, our email address is

chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Please include your first name, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

United States, and we obviously ask of you to keep the question,

uh, relevant to.

Subject in

hand.

Yeah.

Okay.

Um, yeah, how this

man of

lawlessness,

it says in

field in the flesh and we'll be at the end of the age of the

antichrist.

So he has a coming just as first and the second coming

the antichrist claims to the antichrist will be

able to perform miracles and they will come from his father, the devil, rather than from the Lord.

He has a gospel, which Paul refers to as the lie.

And he has a following, which Paul refers to as those who do not love the truth.

And he has apparently a worldwide kingdom.

He opposes Christ.

Second Thessalonians says he opposes all that is called God,

true God, because he wants all people.

He sits in the, in this gun, he suppresses the worship of

the true God and he persecutes.

So I would put a fairly large idea that there

will be at the end of the age as humanity rebels

against the law and gospel of God, two things

were to look for the man of lawlessness.

I think the rebellion against the

law and against the gospel, which I think we're seeing quite as something that looks like that now for sure,

creates an environment in which a man of lawlessness can step forth and lead the world in a

counterfeit religion.

So I don't think the antichrist is an institution like the papacy or

this involves prophets in general.

It seems to me quite clear that there is a real person will be

the one to have

tell you much more about it in detail.

I don't know that, but the evidence to me looks like that's what will happen.

Just as a side note, if you go through the revelation, you'll see that at least on

three or four separate occasions, including revelation chapter 20, you have a depiction

of this final battle that will be waged against the church.

Maybe later, if you care to, we could talk a little about revelation 11.

I find that especially powerful.

That's another place where it's very clear that the world system will mount a final attack against the church.

Well, yeah, I would like to discuss that.

Right after I asked this question.

You said that in your opinion, the Bible or the biblical definition or description

of the antichrist would rule out the papacy.

I'm assuming you mean the papacy as an office in general, but not

particularly or not with certainty.

It would not rule out a.

Pope in your mind, would it?

The note in my book saying that evangelicals should keep an eye out

for what comes out of the Vatican.

It does seem to me as I read some of the texts in Daniel, however, that the antichrist,

if I'm reading those texts correctly, and they are difficult, I admit that it looks like he's more of a

military leader, ecclesiastical leader.

But we know from histories that some popes actually did lead their armies to battle.

So I do not rule that out.

No,.

I wouldn't.

Do you equate as far as either the same person

or entity or figure, the antichrist, the beast and the false prophet?

Do you believe that the antichrist and the beast of revelation and the

false prophet are all the same figure or are they different?

An opportunity to touch on that.

I embrace an approach to interpreting the revelation, which is called

idealism.

The idealist interpretation says,

no, in the revelation, don't just talk

about the pre -millennial views.

They talk about the

pilgrimage through salvation history,

the Holy Spirit.

And in my mind,

in the center of my mind, you see in chapter

12, a depiction of Christ.

He's born of mother Mary, the dragon, who is Satan

and who is Satan is attempts to devour him, but he

eludes Satan's grasp and he is raised up to heaven and seated at the right hand of God.

Then the dragon begins to pursue the woman into the wilderness where she goes

for 1260 days or three and a half years or times time and a half a time.

Now, why this is so important is this is a great, great picture.

That is the foundation of it is laid in the old testament in the exodus.

The Jews, the Israelites are delivered from Egypt, which represents the domain of darkness that Paul

referred to.

They pass through the wilderness, which represents the pilgrimage of the church.

And finally they enter the promised land, which is where we're headed, the new heavens and the new earth.

So while we're going through the wilderness of this world, this dragon is using various

institutions and personalities to try to trip up the bride of

Christ, the

woman, symbolized by

us in Daniel, as you probably know, and they

symbolize in Daniel, they

symbolize the various that Satan uses to

persecute the church all throughout her pilgrimage,

presents which are used to either deceive or to oppress the true spiritual

church.

And you notice

chapter 13, where that first comes up, the beast and the false prophet are working

hand in hand, representing the spirit

of the

new testament,

you're trying to get

people to worship Caesar and so forth.

And that's how the text that would have come, that's what would have come to mind to new testament believers,

really that the pilgrimage.

So the false prophet represents working hand in hand

with the church.

Think back in reformation times, how the catholic church worked hand in hand with some of the kings

and princes in Europe to try to crush the reformation.

That's a good illustration of the false prophet at work.

Then the final one, of course, is the harlot or the symbolizes the

world system.

You're thinking of,

instead of just deceive religiously

into losing their edge and to going over into a life of comfort and

pleasure and interpret

the false prophet.

I hope I answered your question.

That was a long discourse.

I want you to be as lengthy as.

Possible in your explanations, so you don't have to worry about over speaking.

I want you to be thorough on this.

And once again, I apologize to our listeners that I'm operating this board in a way that I've never had

to before, due to our guest's hard of hearing difficulty.

And he gave me permission to announce that, so I'm not embarrassing him by saying this.

And I just thank him for his patience with me as well.

We're going to be going to our next break.

So if you'd like to send us an email, we will get to your questions eventually.

I do see a couple of the emails that our listeners have sent in.

We will get to them eventually, but we do have more meat to dig into in

regarding this very complex issue that obviously has

the church at large in great disagreement for centuries.

And it's amazing how brethren who are in lockstep on many other theological issues are

divided over eschatology.

And I think next to music, this is the most divisive issue that

we face as a church.

But we're going to be going to our next break right now, and we hope that you stay tuned.

And we'll be right back after these messages, so don't go away.

Linbrook Baptist Church on 225 Earl Avenue in Linbrook, Long Island, is teaching God's timeless truths in

the 21st century.

Our church is far more than a Sunday worship service.

It's a place of.

Learning where the scripture studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant.

It's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement.

It's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people and healing.

We're a diverse family of all ages, enthusiastically serving our Lord Jesus Christ in fellowship, play, and

together.

Hi, I'm Pastor Bob Walderman, and I invite you to come and join us here at Linbrook Baptist Church and see all that a church can

be.

Call Linbrook Baptist at 516 -599 -9402.

That's 516 -599 -9402, or visit linbrookbaptist .org.

That's linbrookbaptist .org.

Hi, I'm Mike Gallagher.

Support.

For Iron Sharpens.

Iron Radio comes from Thriven Financial, where faith and finances connect for good.

Thriven helps its members be wise with money and live generously.

Nearly two and a half million Christians count on Thriven to help them protect their families and strengthen the communities

where they live, work, and worship.

To learn more about what makes Thriven unique, contact me

at 717 -254 -6433.

Lending faith, finances, and generosity.

That's the Thriven story.

Introducing 1031 Sermon Jams.

Now for the good news.

That sounds like sweet music in the hell -bound sinner's ears,

especially if you're like me, and you know that you don't need Romans 3 to remind you of

how wicked you are.

If you'd like to learn more about 1031 Sermon Jams, visit us at our website at 1031SermonJams .com,

or follow us on Twitter or Facebook.

God in his glory and the gospel is about man and his sin.

Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnsin.

If you've just tuned us in, we are on our first day of a six -day marathon on end

times or eschatology.

Today we are addressing amillennialism or amillennialism as some pronounce it, and our guest to do

so, who represents amillennialism is Dean Davis.

He is the author of The High King of Heaven, and this is a book, a massive

720 -page book promoting the doctrine known as

amillennialism or amillennialism, and our email address if you

have questions for our guest is ChrisArnsin at gmail .com, C -H

-R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com, and

we do have a listener.

We have Hugh in Santa Rosa, California, who says,

Could you discuss how premill all forms and postmill are all

pre -consummationist while only amill is post -consummationist?

That is, the latter rightly sees the fullness of the blessing of the kingdom coming

in the second coming, not before.

And Hugh, the

moment of

his son,

wants to

puncture the consummation.

Then the

scripture

says in

Matthew

24 that the son will not give his light to the middle

symbolism

of the

entire universe.

And then in very quick succession, there is the resurrection from the dead of

the living flesh, not only of the church in the sense that

God sends forth the angels and catches up all the

Christ.

The

problem

with

these

other

scenarios

is that they try

to

fracture

it and

break

it up.

We have another

listener

in Moncton, New

Brunswick,

Canada.

I'm

sorry if

I'm butchering the.

First word there and the name of that city.

Sean writes,.

I'm wondering if Dean could give us his viewpoint on the importance of the text of 1 Corinthians 15

and how we can relate the resurrection of the dead with the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Oh, I have amillennialism .wordpress .com, but is the one that you said the same?

Part

that I

find

so

interesting

is

that

in

verse

20,

the

first

fruit,

new heavens,

and

then

says, well,

gathered in,

there

will

be

up,

and

then

death will be

put

in

Paul's

mind.

His rise first, as he says in 1 Thessalonians 4, then the living saints are

transformed, are given their glorified bodies.

We do have

our

first listener that has written a question to us.

Since the inception of Iron Trap and Zion from India.

We have Vincent in Bangalore, India, and he writes,

Dean, I'm one of your biggest fans and have been extremely blessed with your work and strongly

recommend it to all.

I think it will help all our Christian brethren listening.

If you would please explain what you think.

There is fog and confusing multiplicity of views, as far as eschatology is

concerned.

You've explained it very well in your introduction,.

And that's

Vincent

from

Bangalore,

India.

I just felt

Polycarp,

the

material, and

the author of the Didache was called

to Diognetus, Hippolytus, Origen, Eusebius, and getting

all of the Reformers

were

amillennarian.

I'm not

saying

this

will be

across the board,

but I think we'll begin

to.

If you could, return to Revelation 11.

You said you had some more pressing issues that are relevant to our discussion.

From Revelation 11, if you have anything further to say about that specifically.

Hugh

writes

back,

our

listener

that

asked

the

question

earlier,.

Why are you not willing to say that this is Jerusalem, which

now is that of the law?

Before we go to our last break, Dean, I'd like you to think about a question,

and then you can answer it when we return.

But the question is, what is the relationship between Old Covenant Israel,

the Israel that exists today, and the Church?

Obviously, you are fully aware, Dean, that many pre -millenarians,

and perhaps even some post -millennialists, would identify amillennialism

as anti -Semitic, or at least that it promotes anti

-Semitism, and that we are

teaching what they would call replacement theology, although I have never heard

an amillennialist or a Covenant theologian use the term

replacement theology as a way to identify themselves.

But you have heard that accusation and that label placed on amillennialists and even

Covenant theologians by others.

But when we return from the break, if you could respond to that, and primarily involving

the relationship that we have, what is the commonality

and the difference between Old Covenant Israel, the Israel today, and the Church?

And we're going to be right back after these messages.

And once again, we thank our listeners for being very patient with us as we've had to deal with different

means by which we broadcast today, and I look forward to hearing from you.

If you have any further questions, now is the time to send them in, because we're running out of

time.

We've only got less than a half hour left of the program, and the email address is

chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Don't forget to give your first name, at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence,

if outside of the USA.

We'll be right back.

Researched and prepared by biblical scholars devoted to accuracy, the new topical reference Bible includes contemporary

topics relevant to today's issues.

From compact to giant print Bibles, find an NASB that fits your needs very affordably at nasbible

.com.

Trust, discover, and enjoy the NASB for yourself today.

Go to nasbible .com.

That's nasbible .com.

Tired of box store Christianity, of doing church in a warehouse.

With all the trappings of a rock concert?

Do you long for a more traditional and reverent style of worship?

And how about the preaching?

Perhaps you've begun to think that in -depth biblical exposition has vanished from Long Island.

Well, there's good news.

Wedding River Baptist Church exists to provide believers with a meaningful and reverent worship experience,

featuring the systematic exposition of God's Word.

And this loving congregation looks forward to meeting you.

Call them at 631 -929 -3512 for service times.

631 -929 -3512.

Or check out their website at wrbc .us.

That's wrbc .us.

Thriven Financial is pleased to support Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

While others see money as a goal, Thriven sees it as a tool for serving God, family, and

community.

For more than a century, Thriven has helped its nearly two and a half million Christian members make financial

decisions that reflect their values, while also helping them live generously.

Find out more by contacting me, Mike Gallagher,

at 717 -254 -6433.

Thriven Financial, connecting faith and finances for good.

Lending faith, finances, and generosity.

That's the Thriven story.

Welcome back.

This is Chris Arms.

And if you just tuned us in for the last 90 minutes, we have been discussing amillennialism with a

proponent of that view, which is detailed after doing

exhaustive research in this monumental work, The High King of Heaven,

720 -page volume by our guest, Dean Davis.

And this is just day number one of our six -day marathon on eschatology,

also called End Times, or Last Days, or Last Things.

And if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, we only have less than 28 minutes

to the broadcast, so email us now at ChrisArnsen at gmail .com.

ChrisArnsen at gmail .com.

Before the break, Dean, I asked you to give us your understanding of the relationship

between Old Covenant Israel, the Israel that we have today, and the church, if you

could, and perhaps even respond to the.

Charges of anti -Semitism by those outside of the amillennial camp.

Well, this is out of

emotion surrounding it.

I know that in my Christian experience, I have ever in my life met

any believer of any eschatological

position, Jewish neighbors.

Everybody who knows the Bible has an intuitive feeling that God himself

has a special place in his heart for the Jews.

And I think that it is this awareness that drives some of the

animosity of some of our pre -millenarian brothers.

Problematic, of course, that in the history of Protestantism,

we have had some anti -Semitism, or seeming anti -Semitism, from our leaders,

such as Luther and so forth.

I'm sure Brother Luther regrets anything that was genuinely anti -Semitic at this moment and would never

endorse it at all.

Sometimes, I'm going to kind of just speak out of my heart here.

I may not jump on your question immediately, but I will try to get back to that.

Oftentimes, amillennarians are accused of trying to rob Israel

that are given to her in the Old Testament.

The simple point that I would like to make, a biblically

sound amillennial eschatology is one that actually

should be of great interest in, and a great

love for, and a great hope for, that the

understanding of

all descendants would

go something like this.

God created the family of Abraham, and later the nation of Israel,

as a picture of his church.

Now, when I say church, I don't mean just the Gentiles.

I mean believers of all times, and of all places, ever since the beginning.

All the way back to Adam and Eve, and Brother Abel,

him as the promised Messiah,

who died on the cross for us, whether Jew

or Christian.

God only has called out ones of Jesus

Christ, of all generations, Jew and Gentile.

So the Old Testament family of Israel, the family of Abraham and the

nation of Israel, was a picture of the church.

Within Israel, ethnic Israel, there were believers and unbelievers.

Jacob have I loved, he was a believer.

Esau have I hated, he was not a believer.

You think in the wilderness there about Korah, or

Ahithophel later on, the opponent of David, or some of the, maybe the

wicked sons of Eli.

These are Jewish in name only, but they are not spiritual Israel.

Their hearts were not circumcised.

They had no faith.

They were not called of the Lord.

So in all history, in all Jewish history, there's been a distinction between Israel according to the flesh,

as Paul according to the spirit.

Now in the plan of God, according to Romans 9 -11, it went like this.

God sent his son into the world, and an elect remnant of Jews

at that time trusted in him, so they joined the ranks of spiritual Israel.

The majority of the nation, however, did not, and they remained in the ranks of Israel

according to the flesh.

They rejected Christ with the result that the Jewish branch of

the nations and the Gentile branch

were broken off free of

Abraham.

The ethnic Gentiles were grafted.

Coming of the new covenant, there is called the

church, and it replaces the Mosaic theocracy.

I believe in replacement theology to that extent.

The church and its institutions replace the Mosaic theocracy,

the ceremonial law, you know, the

temple worship, and the various feasts are all fulfilled in Christ according to

the ordinances given by the Lord Jesus and the apostles

of the people of God.

It is the new set of institutions.

It is true today as it was in times past.

There are Jews and Gentiles who are members of this spiritual Israel.

To bring it to the happy conclusion, as I read Romans 11, and I'm

not in total agreement here with some of my Reformed brothers, but

it teaches that as we approach the end of the age,

God will revisit the ethnic Jew, whether it's in New York City or Jerusalem or

wherever, a great multitude of them will.

Let me say that if you read Romans 11, it

actually predicts that the Gentile branches will be broken off at the

end, and the Jewish branch will be grafted back in.

Now I think that's what we're seeing in Europe today, and we may be seeing it in America, that Gentile

branches seem to be getting lopped off, hopefully in preparation for the grafting

in of the Jew.

And when that happens, according to Romans 11, it will be life from the dead.

Wow, what a wonderful promise.

I believe that that refers to the second coming of Christ and the resurrection of the dead,

children of Abraham, the future

of the

Jews.

In fact, it kind of looks at the Jews as the bookends of salvation history.

God's redemptive program begins with the physical Jew,

with the restoration of a whole bunch of Israel, becomes the

bookends of salvation history.

We Gentiles are in the middle, and I think that is highly honoring to the Jewish people, and it

certainly doesn't reflect anti -Semitism.

Yes, and you made a comment about those from.

The Reformed camp, which I happen to be one.

I know that there is a diverse number of opinions regarding

how to view ethnic Israel and Israel today, and even

amongst the amillennial and postmillennial spectrum, because obviously you have optimistic

amillennialists and postmillennialists who are Calvinists who would agree with much of what you said, if not all of it.

But going back to the term replacement theology, I know many brethren

who would say that because of the church fulfilling

spiritually the picture of Israel that was given in

the old covenant, that that is not a replacement, it's a fulfillment, and they would see a distinction

between using those terms.

I like the point there, that the Old

Testament institutions are obsolete.

The problem with our premillenarian brethren is that they look for a return to those institutions in

the millennium, and that strikes me as going backwards.

It's very clear that from Hebrews chapter 8, that those Old Testament institutions,

having been fulfilled, are now obsolete, and they are ready to vanish away, and now they

have.

So yes, I like that distinction, fulfillment versus.

Replacement.

And I'm assuming that the words in 1 Peter chapter 2

have a lot to do with your view of the church now being a holy nation and a

royal priesthood, and so on.

50 years we have been marinated in dispensationalism.

When we hear the word church, we start thinking Gentile.

We know that there were many, many Jewish believers, along with a great multitude

of Gentile believers, and they were the chosen race.

They were the royal priesthood.

They were the people who formerly had not received mercy, and now they have received mercy.

So it has nothing to do, this debate has nothing to do with ethnic prejudice.

It just has to do with clearly identifying the true people of

evidence, theologians,

with Jew or Gentile.

I'm assuming by everything that you said that you would reject a view, which is a minority view today,

but a view held by some that there are no people today that

can be authenticated as being ethnic Israel because of the intermarriage that has taken

place over the centuries, and they would say that the people who call themselves or identify

themselves as Jews would be remnants or descendants of the Khazars, a

Russian group.

Oh boy, I'm sorry.

I'm out of my depth there.

I really have never heard much about that.

You know, I guess I feel that if somebody self -identifies as a Jew and they

can identify a dad or a mom who is Jewish, I pretty just follow their

self -identification.

But we'll have to let the Lord sort that all out.

Well, in regard to the nation of Israel, that nation in the Middle East

that was formerly known as Palestine, is that a gathering of people

that just falls under the heading of God's providence and that it

has no connection with actual biblical prophecy?

Well, that's an excellent question.

I wrestled with that in a long appendix in my book.

It was entitled, Is the Modern Nation of Israel a Fulfillment of Biblical Prophecy?

The short answer to that is no.

I do not think that the creation of the nation of Israel is in

fulfillment of any specific prophecy that I can find or I can

understand.

My reading of the Old Testament prophecies of Israel's

restoration is that typically these prophecies are sort of blended,

and they refer in the foreground to the restoration of Israel from

back then.

It notches it up in a scatological

restoration to the land.

This, I believe, is fulfilled in the new birth when we are born again.

We are seated in heavenly places.

We become members of the Jerusalem above.

We are planted on the Zion above.

It says to Hebrews 12 there, we have come to the Zion above.

Testament prophecies of the kingdom, restoration of a scatological

Israel, Israel in the last days, these are fulfilled among Jews and Gentiles who are

spiritually reborn into the church.

Now, going back to your question, the way I think of this is that, yes, it is an act

of God's providence that he has brought together the Jews in their ancient homeland.

And it may be in part in preparation for this

final visitation of the Holy Spirit upon the Jewish people, maybe many

people around the Jewish people will want to gather back there and continue to express

solidarity with their brothers and sisters.

So what I think is not so good and what is dangerous

is to begin to think of these Jewish people who are largely secular

as somehow the objects of God's saving favor, when in fact they very much, just

like everybody else, they need to hear the gospel and they need to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

At the end of Romans 11 there, Paul, day

visitation of the Spirit where the Lord will, as it were, come out of the Zion above and he will visit

his ancient Jewish people and he will bring them in.

So the only understanding or maybe I should say speculation that

I have is this is an act of providence to place the Jewish people once again on the

stage of history in a significant way and to do so in anticipation of their

conversion and their return to Christ.

If you could define the kingdom of God because that's another issue that people disagree

on.

In regard to a definition.

Probably half of my book deals

with single

most problems quickly.

The second thing that's important to say is that when you think about the

kingdom, you must go to what I called earlier the didactic New Testament.

You can't go to Ezekiel.

You can't go to Daniel.

You can't go to Isaiah.

You can't go to the Revelation.

You must go to the book of

Acts based on

the apostles teaching us

under a veil of types and shadows.

That's so important.

Our premillenarian brothers want to interpret these prophecies of the kingdom literally,

but you will not find the apostles doing that.

They interpret them figuratively as being fulfilled in the church.

Now to answer your question very quickly, there's

two essential questions here.

What is the nature of the kingdom according to the didactic New Testament and what is the

structure?

The nature of the kingdom is very clear from a number of texts, but I like

John chapter 3, Nicodemus.

He came to Jesus in the middle of the night and he said, Brother, all of us

can see you do these great miracles.

Teach us about the kingdom.

So Jesus did and he said, You need to be born again.

You need to be born from above.

You need to look upon him who is going to be lifted up as a serpent in the wilderness was

and you need to gaze upon him so that you will find forgiveness of sins and eternal life and

you will enter the kingdom.

You will be reborn.

Christ, the kingdom of God, by this my definition, is the direct person

in their hearts bringing them to the nature

of the kingdom.

Now the kingdom enters the history in two simple stages.

You read Matthew 13, especially the parable of the wheat and the tares.

You see that Jesus distinguishes between the kingdom of the son, which is the kingdom

of as he rules at the right hand of the father with all authority in heaven and earth.

He sends his gospel messengers into the nation.

They sow the seed of the word of God, the seed of the gospel onto the ground.

People believe and they are born again and they enter the spiritual kingdom.

It's not a visible kingdom.

It's not, it's just,

it is a three

there.

He says, he says, if you have been born again and seated up there

in the heavenlies with Christ, keep looking up to him and when he returns, you too will

be revealed in glory.

So the second stage of the kingdom comes after the second coming of Christ, the resurrection from the

dead, the transformation of the living, the creation of the new heavens and the earth.

Now the kingdom is not just spiritual and invisible.

Now it's

spirit

sacrifices

comes again.

Yeah.

Amen.

Um,

the,

in regard to any old covenant prophecies that the premillenarians.

Very often will address, uh, and uh, perhaps some of our post -millennial brethren,

uh, in regard to the book of Daniel and so on.

Do you, do you care to share anything before our time runs out?

You have about, you have about five minutes to do that.

Oh, I, I think, hang on, I'm

going to look on my computer for one sec here and I'll, I'll take you into a

scripture.

If you become fully persuaded that the structure of the

kingdom is, is, is as I just described it, that it enters history in these two simple

stages.

Then when you go back to the old Testament, you're going to, you're going to

say to yourself something like this, okay, here's Isaiah in chapter 11 and

he's talking about the last days and he's talking about the Messiah and he's talking about what Messiah

is going to do.

Is this fulfilled in the first stage of the kingdom, evangelism,

and, and, and God is reigning in

the second stage of the kingdom after Jesus comes back in the new heavens and

the new earth.

If you are absolutely convinced that those are the only two options, you're not going to read it as a

premillenarian, are

you?

In the kingdom of the son.

Very quickly, the Messiah's reign in Isaiah 11, there shall come forth a rod for the

stem of Jesse and a branch

very beginning of the church era, the era of proclamation shall

rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit

of knowledge and the fear of the Lord.

This describes him certainly in his earth walk and all the more so now that he's up at the right hand of

the father, he will delight in the fear of the Lord and he shall not judge by the sight

of his eyes nor decide by the hearing of his ears, but with righteousness he shall

judge the poor and decide with equity for the meek of the earth.

Now our premillenarian brothers will say, there you are, that shows that he's going to be in Jerusalem and he's going to be

acting as a judge, but I don't read it that way.

My reading of the New Testament tells me that when Christ judges

them, he

judges that they are righteous in the sight of God because

this reference to the meek of the earth, you go to the Sermon on the Mount, what does he say?

Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth.

Now you go to Isaiah 11, strike the earth with the rod

of his mouth, with the breath of his lips he shall slay the wicked, righteousness shall be the belt of his loins

and faithfulness the belt of his waist.

So that is the coming of Christ again.

And now Chris, here's the text

you wanted me to comment on earlier.

The leopard will lie down with the young goat, the calf and the young

lion and the fatling together and a little child shall lead them.

The cow and the bear shall graze, their young ones shall lie down together and the lion shall eat straw

like the ox.

The nursing child shall play by the cobra's hole, the weaned child shall put his hand on the viper's den.

They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain, for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of

the Lord as the water.

Take this exactly literally, it's kind of an

opaque window into the new heavens and Old Testament

language and Old Testament promises.

The Old Testament promised ancient Israel that if they were obedient to God's law then they wouldn't get eaten

by animals.

So it's a picture of the children of God who love the Lord dwelling in security and in

safety and in peace and in the presence of the Lord.

The whole earth becomes God's holy mountain and the whole world is covered with the knowledge of the

Lord.

Do you think that Amillennialists.

Interpret any less literal interpretations

or hold to any less literal interpretations than the pre -millenarians do?

Aren't they just different places where they're held literally and figuratively.

Than our pre -millenarian brethren?

You're picking up my good habit of calling them brothers.

I like to be a peaceful soul.

Here's what I do in the book.

I distinguish between different kinds of prophecy, simple

messianic prophecy.

These are fulfilled prior to the coming

of the kingdom, which I mark as the day of Pentecost.

When the church was reborn spiritually on the day of Pentecost, that's the beginning of the kingdom.

God made many specific predictions about the birth of Jesus to a virgin, where he

would live in Galilee, how he would perform miracles.

It talked about lots and lots about the manner of his death

and his betrayal and the resurrection.

These are vital equipment for the church to show that God is absolutely in control of and

knows the entire future.

But when you go in to the eschatological era, when the scripture says in

the last days or in that day, then you know that you are post -Pentecost,

and at that point,.

The new covenant comes into play.

We're out of time, Dean.

We're out of time.

And I want to thank everybody for listening.

I hope that you always remember that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.

Go to ommillennialism .wordpress .com, ommillennialism .wordpress .com,

and I hope that you will join us for the rest of the week for Eschatology Marathon.