Aug. 17, 2015 Show with Dean Davis on “Amillennialism” [End Times 6-Day Marathon]

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Now here's our host, Chris Arnton. Welcome to the

Iron Sharpens Iron podcast. During the broadcast and recording of this episode, we experienced technical difficulties that affected the quality of the audio.

In particular, Chris Arnton's extended introduction of the week's theme was largely unintelligible.

Although we cannot currently restore the original audio, what follows is more or less what

Chris said. This is the first time on the new Iron Sharpens Iron that we have focused six days in a row on one theme.

This is the first day of a six -day marathon on end times or last days or eschatology.

On every single day for the next six days, we are going to have representatives defending the major views of eschatology.

Today, for instance, our guest Dean Davis is going to be representing Amillennial Eschatology. Tomorrow, Tuesday, August 18th, we are going to be featuring

Pastor Ron Glass of Wading River Baptist Church and Michael Vlock of the

Master's Seminary who are going to be discussing pre -tribulational premillennialism.

On Wednesday, August 19th, we have Barry Horner of John Bunyan Ministries and James Hamilton who are going to be defending historic premillennialism.

And then on Thursday, August 20th, we are going to have Alan Kirshner, a blogger for Dr.

James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries, and Vince Sawyer, a retired pastor and itinerant evangelist, who are both going to be defending the pre -wrath rapture view.

On Friday, the 21st of August, we are going to be featuring John Jefferson Davis, author and professor at Gordon -Conwell

Theological Seminary, and a Reformed Baptist pastor from Ohio, Fred Pugh, who are both going to be defending the traditional understanding of postmillennialism.

And then on next Monday, the final day of our six -day marathon, Monday, August 24th, we are going to feature

John Otis and also Jeff Durbin of Apologia TV, Apologia Radio, and Apologia Church who are going to be presenting theonomic postmillennialism.

And now we join Iron Sharpens Iron in progress with our host,

Chris Arnzen. So there you go, we have a really rich week of diverse brethren who all, though, believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

They believe in the salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. And they differ, though, at times very strongly on eschatology.

And that is why we are having this six -day marathon, because there are many brethren in Christ who may have a heart beating as one, they may even be sitting in the same pew, but they disagree on matters of eschatology, which brethren in Christ throughout the centuries have disagreed on, even if in many cases they agreed on many of the pillars of the faith and had much in common.

But let me introduce our first guest. Our first guest today is Dean Davis, and he holds degrees in philosophy and theology, and he is a member of Mercy Hill Church and the director of Come Let Us Reason, a

Bible teaching ministry specializing in apologetics and worldview studies. And he is the author of the book,

The High King of Heaven, Discovering the Master Keys to the Great End Time Debate.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the first time ever on Iron Sharpens Iron, Dean Davis.

Well, thank you so much, Chris. It's an honor and privilege to be here. I'm eager to have you far away.

Well, it's a great pleasure to have you for the first time, Dean. And first of all, let me ask you,

I know that your book is an outline, or more than an outline, it's a massive volume here that we have.

It's one of the largest works in eschatology I've ever seen. Actually, it's over 720 pages.

This is a very thorough and in -depth work on amillennialism, not only larger than most

I've seen on amillennialism, but larger than most I've seen on any eschatological view.

Why did you find the need to write The High King of Heaven in light of the fact that other men, both old from days past and new, contemporary authors have addressed this issue?

What's different about The High King of Heaven that you felt the need to write it? Well, firstly,

I think that many, many years ago, maybe close to 40 years ago, just after I graduated from seminary,

I was, of course, fascinated with the topic of eschatology. And when

I went through seminary, I studied with Rodman Williams at Melody Land School of Theology, and he taught us in amillennialism.

And I was intrigued with the view, and I studied it. And I'd say over the course of about a year,

I was pretty fully persuaded that this was the biblical view. And I'm the kind of a guy that sort of likes to think while he writes, and I always think it's good for there to be two or three or more witnesses to the truth, so I thought it would be good to try to write a book.

So I tried and tried and tried for about three or four years, and I couldn't succeed. There's so many moving parts in eschatology, so many issues and elements and options, and it was simply too confusing for me.

It was beyond my ability to pull it all together in a coherent system. But I had prayed about it, and as I did my work as a pastor for many years,

I preached amillennialism, and I grew in my understanding, and finally, I guess,

I hope, I trust, the Lord felt it was time, an opportune time, to put together the book.

To answer your question, there are a couple of works that I think are basically definitive on this question.

I like Anthony Herkimer's book, The Bible and the Future. That was one that was very influential in changing my thinking.

But I felt that there was a weak link in most defenses of amillennialism, and that was a failure to deal honestly and thoroughly with a lot of the

Old Testament texts that our premillenarian brothers embrace. And I recognize that the real underlying reason why so many evangelicals cling to premillennialism is that they want to honor

Scripture by interpreting Old Testament prophecies of the Kingdom in a literal manner. So I'd say if my book brings anything unique to the discussion,

Chris, it's an in -depth exploration, first of all, of the

New Testament doctrine of the Kingdom of God, what's its true nature, what's its true structure.

Secondly, how in fact did the apostles handle those Old Testament Kingdom prophecies?

Did they use a literal hermeneutic like our premillenarian brothers do, or did they handle them more figuratively?

And then thirdly, I wanted to go back and really tackle some of those Old Testament texts.

So I think that's probably my main motivations.

Just to add a final thought or two on this, as you well know, probably more than one guest recently has talked to you about it, we're heading into and exceeding a difficult time in world culture and American culture, and I certainly am not one to speak prophetically about dates and seasons, but I do believe from my study of eschatology that the

Church will pass through what traditionally is called the Great Tribulation. I'll deal with that term a little bit later.

I prefer to call it the Last Battle, and frankly I'm concerned that we would be ready for it.

I don't believe that dispensational premillennialism or postmillennialism and some of the other views are adequately equipping us for that terribly difficult time that the

Church must pass through before she sees the Lord return in glory. So that's pretty much my thoughts on your question.

I'll answer more if you have more questions on it. Well, I better have more since this is a two -hour program.

Well, since this is on amillennialism, what is the thousand -year reign, often referred to as the

Millennium, of Jesus Christ that is referred to in Isaiah 2,

Isaiah 42, Isaiah 11, and other places?

Give us an amillennial perspective on what this means, and obviously—I should have said this at the outset—there are many different types of amillennialists.

Well, at least there are several, but there are probably many. Just as each of the other categories of eschatology are no doubt, there's going to be diversity, there's going to be people who are going to protest that their particular view is not being adequately represented, and so let's start off with that.

What is the Millennium? Well, you have quite a little bundle of questions all tucked into your one big bundle there, so I'll try to kind of untangle it here.

I'll start with the word Millennium. As you know, it comes from Revelation 20, which is divided into four sections, and each of which deals with this mysterious period of a thousand years.

And as you correctly say, there's a lot of different points of view on that. In all simplicity, you basically,

I think, have two views of those thousand years. Premillenarians believe that the thousand years are literal and that they will occur in the future.

Amillenarians believe that the thousand years are symbolic either of the entire era of proclamation between the ascension of Christ and his second coming, or a portion of it.

Some amillenarians would say that the Millennial period will occur towards the end of the

Church era, or the era of proclamation, and after that, the Lord will return. So those are the basic views of it.

Well, you mentioned Revelation 20, where we have the binding of Satan, and obviously you very frequently will hear those of the premillennial views mocking the idea that Satan could possibly be bound now due to the wickedness that is overwhelming the earth.

Can you tell us what you mean, or what amillennialists in general mean, by the binding of Satan in Revelation 20?

Yeah, I think most amillenarians are pretty much on the same page on this.

Let me just give you a little lead -up to this that's important. In order to understand

Revelation 20, I think you have to understand the structure of the book as a whole, and I will tell you that this is a subject that really repays close study.

The best material on this, in my opinion, is found in William Hendrickson's book, More Than Conquerors, and let me just sketch it for you verbally, and you'll see why this is so helpful in analyzing

Revelation 20. In Chapter 1 of the Revelation, you have what I call a vision of the

High King. I like the theme, High King, as you'll notice. In Chapters 2 and 3, you have the

High King's messages to the people of Israel, if you remember. Then in Chapters 4 and 5, you have what

I call the investiture of the High King. As you recall, the Lamb who appears before the throne of God, he receives the scroll from his hand, which

I think is the last will and testament containing our full inheritance of eternal life, and he begins to unseal the scroll, symbolizing the fact that he is now

Lord of history, Lord of universal history, and that he is in charge of the unfolding of all events that will lead up to the consummation at his second coming.

Now, the important part here is Revelation 6 -20. According to Hendrickson's view, which is called progressive parallelism, these chapters can be divided into six cycles, or six individual sections, and in each one of the sections, the

Holy Spirit basically takes us from the beginning of the church era to the end, basically from the day of Pentecost to the second coming of Christ and the consummation of all things.

So, if you read closely the material at the end of each of these sections, what you'll see is a depiction of the

Last Judgment. So, Chapters 6 and 7 give us the six seals.

At the end of Chapter 6, you get a picture of the Last Judgment, and then in Chapter 7, you get a little sneak preview of the new heavens and the new earth.

Chapters 8 -11, the seven trumpets. At the end of Chapter 11, you have a symbolic but very clear depiction of the

Last Judgment. The same with 12 -14, which deals with the woman and the dragon.

At the end of Chapter 14, you have a depiction of the Last Judgment, the second coming of Christ. 15 -16 are the seven bulls.

At the end of that, you have the same thing. And then 17 -19, I titled it the

Fall of the Dragon's You have one of the most explicit descriptions at the end of Chapter 19 of the second coming.

Now, why is this important? If it is true that this book is structured in this way, then there is an obvious presumption that Chapter 20 will begin at the beginning of the

Church era. And that, I think, is exactly what you find when you turn to Revelation Chapter 20.

Remembering that the Holy Spirit is using a lot of Old Testament symbolic language to communicate

New Testament truth, it says here in the text that John sees an angel descending from heaven, having a key.

Now, does he have a literal key hanging at his side? Probably not. That would be a symbol of authority.

The key to the abyss and a great chain in his hand. Does he have a chain in his hand?

Probably not. That symbolizes divine power to bind up and to restrain.

So he lays hold of the dragon, the old serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and binds him for a thousand years, draws him into the abyss, shuts it and seals it over him so that he should not do what?

This is the critical thing. It does not say so that he should not be on the earth anymore.

It does not say that he should not tempt or persecute or deceive believers anymore.

It doesn't say that. It says so that he should not deceive the nations anymore.

Until the thousand years are completed after these things, he must be released for a short time.

So the answer to your question, my view, and that of most amillenarians, is that Satan is bound with reference to one or two things.

I favor the view of two. First of all, he is bound from deceiving God's elect anymore with paganism, and through the proclamation of the gospel and the drawing power of the

Holy Spirit, he will not be able to deceive them or keep them from coming to Christ.

You find that theme expressed in John chapter 12. Secondly, he will be bound from deceiving the nations with a view to gathering them together against the church.

When you get to the end of Revelation 20, you see that Satan is released, and then he gathers all the nations to attack the holy city in the camp of the saints.

That's Old Testament language depicting the final, last battle against the church.

So he is presently bound from gathering, from raising up the

Antichrist, and gathering all nations to deceive God's people. And I think that makes perfect sense, not only with Revelation 20, but it harmonizes beautifully with the rest of New Testament eschatology and the structure of the

Revelation. So that's a long answer to your question. So would you say this has a lot to do in reference to the nations not being deceived by Satan?

Do you think that has a lot to do with the fact that with the coming of Christ and the new covenant, the

Gentiles were being ushered into the kingdom in mass like never before?

Would that have something to do with the nations not being deceived by Satan? Oh boy,

I'm sorry Chris, I had a little difficulty hearing you there. You were saying something about the

Gentile nations not being deceived? Yes, my point was that the

Satan not deceiving the nations, is that in some part relating to the fact that the

Gentile nations are coming into the kingdom like they never were before in the old covenant, with the ushering in of the new covenant and Jesus Christ himself?

I'm sorry I'm having such difficulty hearing, but I think I got the gist. I've got it here now.

Yeah, I'm sorry. See, let me explain to our listeners what's going on here.

Our brother has a hearing problem, so I've been having to switch things on the studio board like I've never had to do before, and I appreciate your patience, those who are listening.

But as I was saying, the deception of the nations that is not going to be happening during this thousand years referred to in Revelation 20, is that somehow correlated with the fact that the new covenant, in the new covenant, with the dawn of Christ in the flesh and his sacrifice and his resurrection and so on, that the

Gentile nations like never before were being ushered into the kingdom of God, and does that have some kind of connection with the reference to the nations not being deceived?

Absolutely, I think that's a very insightful question. You remember a moment ago I mentioned

Revelation 12. This is very moving to me when I read this text.

Jesus was in the last week of his life there in Jerusalem, and as you remember, there were some

Greeks that were very, very interested in meeting him and talking to him, and I believe it was, let me see if I can find this here,

Philip came and told Andrew, and Andrew and Philip came, they told

Jesus, now listen to what he says, and Jesus answered them saying, the hour has come for the

Son of Man to be glorified. Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains by itself alone, but if it dies, it bears much fruit.

If Christ dies, then he will have supplied an atoning sacrifice for the sins of his people.

Then he will rise again, then he will pour out the Holy Spirit, and at that point, for the first time in salvation history, he sends his disciples into all the nations, who are sort of symbolized or represented there by these

Greeks. So that's exactly what you have. Think back to Luke chapter 4, the devil took

Jesus up to a high mountain, he showed him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time, and he said, if you'll just bow down to worship me, all of these

I will give to you. They've been handed over to me. Now, Jesus didn't dispute that.

All of the nations except for little old Israel, and maybe a handful of Gentiles who had found their way into Israel, were deceived by Satan.

They were bound by him. They were blinded to the truth of God. Now that the gospel has come into the world, the church, the

Jewish remnant in the beginning, and then Gentiles who come on board, they're going out, out, out into the nations, and Satan's kingdom is falling.

His universal dominion over the globe is falling because of the proclamation of the gospel.

So it's a very glorious, victorious, happy thought that Satan is bound, and now the nations of those who are elect, who will come to Christ from all tribes, tongues, peoples, and nations, they will no longer be able to deceive.

Christ will have his people. So that would be the glorious and wonderful part of the millennium, that the other views, especially the pre -millennial views, cannot conceive why this would be so glorious, because they see nothing but wickedness getting worse, and they see, you know,

I mean, we've reached things in this nation where there is same -sex marriage, abortion is off the charts, and the numbers of millions of children being murdered, and in their view, the millennium,

Christ is actually physically present. So he is reigning with a rod of iron and so on, and therefore the wickedness that we see now in their scenario of an earthly millennium with Christ physically present, they see that to be much more of an improvement or a glorious hope.

If you could contrast your view of the millennium with that, and why you still view it as something to be precious, and something to praise

God about. Well, of course, historically, pre -millenarians tend to be very pessimistic about the course of this age.

That seems to me especially true of our dispensational brothers. I'd like to think that a -millenarians have a realistic view, and I think in some ways a much more optimistic view, and I'll explain why here in two short points.

Go back to the parable of the wheat and the tares. We may talk about this a little bit later, because to me it's one of the most crucial biblical texts on eschatology.

I consider it absolutely foundational. The Lord Jesus is revealing to his disciples the mysteries of the kingdom, and he explains to them that this world that we live in is like a field, and in the field you have two different kinds of grain.

You have wheat, which symbolize the sons of the kingdom, and you have tares, which symbolize the sons of the evil one.

So you have Christ's kingdom and Christ's people living side by side with Satan's kingdom and Satan's people.

That is a paradigm. That's a picture of how we as believers are to think of our life in this earth.

So the parable tells us that the two crops are predestined to grow side by side until the end of the age, when

Christ will return and effect a final separation. That's the consummation, the end of the age, as every good amillenarian will say.

So what's optimistic and what's pessimistic? I say the amillennial view is optimistic for these reasons.

First of all, if you read all those parables, like the parable of the leaven and the parable of the mustard seed, you see it's very clear that Christ's kingdom will grow.

Satan will be bound, the nations will no longer be deceived from coming to Christ.

He will have a people out of every tribe, tongue, family, and nation, and it will grow to a great fullness.

In the parable of the mustard seed, you remember the little seed grows to a big, big tree, and there's birds from everywhere flying into it, finding a beautiful shelter there, and making their home in this tree.

So it's a picture of the kingdom growing infallibly, but it's growing side by side with the tears, for which reason it's growing in the midst of difficulty and trial and tumult that we obviously are seeing today.

The second reason the amillennial view is optimistic is because when

Christ returns, that is the consummation, that is the wrap -up of all human history, and so it brings the new heavens and the new earth a thousand years closer to us.

Now our premillenarian brothers try to portray the millennium as a wonderful, wonderful season when

Christ is reigning on the earth and using his rod of iron and so forth, but honesty will compel them to admit that there is still sickness, old age, death, sin, rebellion, and especially at the end of the millennium, they're saying that the whole world, somehow, after a thousand years of the blessedness of Christ's reign, they're suddenly going to all rebel against him and come and attack the holy city and the camp of the saints.

Something is wrong with that picture. I think it's because the premillenarian view is just in error by placing that thousand year reign in the future instead of right now where we live.

We're going to be going to a break right now. If you have a question of your own for Dean Davis regarding amillennialism, write to us at chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

that's c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com, and please, when you write, we ask of you to include your first name, your city and state, your country of residence, if you are outside of the

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So email us as soon as you can, we would love to hear from you at chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

that's chrisarnsen at gmail .com. Don't go away, we'll be right back with Dean Davis and his discussion on amillennialism.

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This is Chris Arms and your host of Iron Sharp and Zion. If you've just tuned us in, today is the beginning of our six -day eschatology marathon.

And for the next six days we are going to be going over all of the major views on eschatology.

And today we are discussing amillennialism and we have a representative of that view of eschatology or end times or last things or last days.

He is the author of The High King of Heaven and Dean Davis is also a member of the

Mercy Hill Church and he is going to be addressing, as I said earlier today, the amillennial position.

And I have to read a quote by a well -known brother in Christ that is known to people across the board eschatologically,

C. Samuel Storms. Dr. Sam Storms writes of Dean's book, the most sweeping and comprehensive book on eschatology that I've ever encountered.

The scope of this book is simply breathtaking and that is quite a commendation since Sam Storms wrote his own book on eschatology.

So he's been quite a promoter of your work, hasn't he, brother? I've been falling in the shadows,

Brother Sam. I'm very grateful. I wanted to say, Chris, I got a note from some friends that I should turn off my speaker phone.

So I'm just talking to you on my regular phone. Hopefully the people will hear it better. Well, that sounds great.

That sounds great, Brother. And let's go back into our discussion where we left off. And please be patient with me, listeners, as I switch back and forth here because of our brother's hearing problem.

And sometimes I may forget to switch back and forth the correct knobs that I'm supposed to be hitting here.

But you were talking about optimistic versus pessimistic eschatology earlier.

And the post -millennialists will obviously say, well, you're far too pessimistic no matter what view you take.

Their view, of course, and it varies. There are no one set of beliefs held by post -millennialists, but they, for the most part, either believe that all of the

Earth's inhabitants will become Christian or will at least bow to godly law or that the majority will.

And what is your view of the future of planet Earth prior to the return of Christ?

Do you see only a remnant remaining faithful or being obedient to godly law, or do you see a close parallel to what a post -millennialist might say?

In the last discussion of the parable of the wheat and the tares,

I suggested that that is really paradigmatic for our thinking about the shape of this present age between Christ's first coming and his second coming.

There will be wheat, there will be tares, there will be two kings, two kingdoms, they will grow side by side.

Our mission as Christians is to rub elbows with the tares to present the gospel in hopes that they will become wheat through the regenerating work of the

Holy Spirit. That's our mission. But realistically, anybody that studies the

New Testament, whether you study the Gospels, the Book of Acts, or the Epistles, you realize that all of the authors are operating on the assumption that the

Church lives in enemy territory. I think, for example, of the end of 1

John, where he concludes by saying we know that the whole world lies in the evil one.

Some of the translations add power of the evil one. The thought is that Satan is the ruler of this present evil world system.

Christ is the head of his kingdom and of his people and of his church.

His mission for his people, through the Great Commission, is to call a people out of Satan's world system into the kingdom of God.

So we are seated in heavenly places with Christ. Our citizenship is in heaven above.

That's our joyful standing as Christians. But to answer your question, if you ground your view of eschatology in the proper place, which is in the

Gospels and in the Epistles, supplemented by the Book of Acts, rather than try to cobble together an eschatology based on Old Testament prophecies or based on the

Book of Revelation, you will see that pervasively the

New Testament authors recognize that we will live side by side, wheat in chairs.

That's the way it is. Jesus forewarned all of his disciples to be aware of persecution.

He told us, we learn from the Apostle Paul, all who live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.

The whole emphasis in Ephesians chapter 6 on spiritual warfare is based on the premise that the church throughout her entire pilgrimage in this earth will be wrestling and fighting and struggling with powers, principalities, the world forces of this present darkness, as it says in the

RSV version. I like that translation. So again, the premise, the assumption is that this fallen world system belongs to Satan, with the exception of those who

God the Father has given to his Son and who are called out of darkness into his marvelous light.

I don't see any New Testament justification for the idea of the world becoming better and better to such a degree that Christ will return to a

Christianized world. In fact, if I were to respond to your question, I would say the opposite seems more likely to be true.

Jesus said that in the last days lawlessness will increase and children will betray their parents and parents will put their children to death, brother will rise up against brother.

It looks as if the last days will be extremely demanding and that Christ's church will at that particular point in history may be a relatively little flock.

So I don't know the objective answer to that, but that seems to me to be the tendency of the

Olivet Discourse and other texts in the Bible. If you could, even though this is not our main theme, if you could define preterism, because there are even amillennialists that would define themselves as partial preterists and of course many more postmillennialists do, although not all.

In fact, I do have two separate days being dedicated to postmillennialism during this marathon because of the fact that one of the reasons is because of the fact that postmillennialists disagree on preterism and on theonomy.

But if you could give us a definition of preterism and let us know if at all you would embrace that ideology.

There is a fairly substantive section in my book where I describe both partial preterism and full preterism.

The word preterism comes from a Latin word preter which just means past, as I recall, and the gist of preterism is that all of the, let me just summarize it broadly, the gist of preterism is that most or all of the eschatological events that we commonly think of as future actually occurred in the past.

So the partial preterists would say that world evangelism has already been completed, they would say that the antichrist has already arisen, they would say that the tribulation is already over, and that these things were fulfilled in 70

AD when Titus came and destroyed

Jerusalem. So the preterist view puts a great deal of emphasis on the

Olivet Discourse and Jesus saying to the effect that I tell you the truth, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place.

The full preterist basically says that after 70 AD we're now living in the new heavens and the new earth.

Anybody that's born again is, spiritually speaking, living in the new heavens and the new earth.

The partial preterist says that well the gospel has been preached and the antichrist has appeared, that would be

Nero for example, and the tribulation has occurred because Jerusalem was destroyed in 70

AD, so the next big event to come is the second coming of Christ.

Now the reason I object to this is for the same reason that I would object to post -millennialism and dispensationalism, it leaves

Christ's church unprepared for the last battle, for the final assault of Satan and his powers against the church.

That's a theme that I really develop at some length in my book because there are over 15

Old Testament and New Testament prophecies dealing with a final end -time assault of the nations inspired by Satan and led by the antichrist against the church.

The preterist view says, oh that's already happened under Nero, and then you throw in some post -millennial optimism and one day soon the

Jews will be converted and the world will get better and better. I think that's setting us up for horrific disappointment.

I think we should be girding up the loins of our mind right now and recognize that it is possible,

I'm not predicting anything here, but I certainly think it's possible that we are entering into the kind of the final end -time agony of the church.

We see so many thousands and thousands of brothers and sisters across the pond giving their life for the gospel.

It seems to be closing in on us here in America. I don't think we should expect anything different and I think we should be ready just in case these are the signs of the end indicating that the

Lord will return. In regard to what you said, tell us something about in detail what this great rebellion you described will be like and how the church is to be equipped to fight it.

Well, as I said, I think in the appendix of the book I list these 15 scriptures and I tried to talk about them at some length, but the kind of the locus classicus of this theme, this doctrine, is

I think 2 Thessalonians chapter 2, in which Paul tells us that at the end of the age there will be a man of lawlessness who will arise and it's very, very intriguing to me.

I find the text extremely fascinating because in so many ways, as I'm talking here,

I'm looking a little bit here on my... Well, while you're looking,

I could just repeat our email address. If anybody listening would like to email a question for Dean Davis, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

Please include your first name, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

United States. We obviously ask of you to keep the question relevant to the subject at hand.

Okay, I find it very fascinating how this man of lawlessness, referred to by the

Apostle John as the Antichrist, he does two things. He apes Christ.

C .S. Lewis used that image at the end of his Narnia Chronicles in the last battle.

I thought it was very apropos. So he apes Christ and he opposes Christ. So he apes him.

It says in 2 Thessalonians that he is revealed. Of course, Jesus Christ was revealed in the flesh and will be at the end of the age.

It speaks of the coming of the Antichrist. So he has a coming just as Christ Jesus has a first and a second coming.

The Antichrist claims to be God as Jesus was in fact. The Antichrist will be able to perform miracles and they will come from his father the devil rather than from the

Lord. He has a gospel which Paul refers to as the lie. And he has a following which

Paul refers to as those who do not love the truth. And he has apparently a worldwide kingdom.

He opposes Christ. 2 Thessalonians says he opposes all that is called God. He usurps the worship of the true

God because he wants all people. He sits in the worship of God.

He suppresses the worship of the true God and he persecutes the people of God. So I would put a fairly large idea that there will be at the end of the age as humanity rebels against the law and gospel of God.

That is what Paul refers to. The NIV says two things we are to look for. The rebellion and then the appearance of the man of lawlessness.

I think the rebellion is this final hardening of the nations against the law and against the gospel which

I think we are seeing something that looks like that now for sure. And then that creates an environment in which a man of lawlessness can step forth and lead the world in a counterfeit religion.

So I don't think the antichrist is an institution like the papacy or just false teachings and false prophets in general.

It seems to me quite clear that there is a real person. He apparently will be the one to spearhead a final global suppression of the true spiritual church.

I can't tell you much more about it in detail. I don't know that. But the evidence to me looks like that is what will happen.

Just as a side note, if you go through the revelation, you'll see that at least on three or four separate occasions including

Revelation chapter 20, you have a depiction of this final battle that will be waged against the church.

Maybe later if you care to we could talk a little about Revelation 11. I find that especially powerful.

That's another place where it's very clear that the world system will mount a final attack against the church.

Well yeah, I would like to discuss that right after I ask this question. You said that in your opinion the

Bible or the biblical definition or description of the antichrist would rule out the papacy.

I'm assuming you mean the papacy as an office in general but not particularly or not with certainty it would not rule out a specific pope in your mind, would it?

It would not. As a matter of fact, in a rather edgy mood I put a note in my book saying that evangelicals should keep an eye out for what comes out of the

Vatican. It does seem to me as I read some of the texts in Daniel, however, that the antichrist, if I'm reading those texts correctly, and they are difficult,

I admit that it looks like he's more of a military leader than a clerical leader or an ecclesiastical leader.

But we know from history that some popes actually did lead their armies to battle, so I do not rule that out.

No, I wouldn't. Do you equate as far as either the same person or entity or figure, the antichrist, the beast, and the false prophet?

I'm sorry, would you ask that again? Do you believe that the antichrist and the beast of revelation and the false prophet are all the same figure or are they different?

It's a good question. It gives me an opportunity to touch on I think an interesting theme.

As Hendrickson did, I embrace an approach to interpreting the revelation which is called idealism.

The idealistic interpretation says no, the symbols used in the just talk about the future, that would be the dispensational view and some of the pre -millennial views.

They talk about the life experience of the whole church as she makes her pilgrimage through salvation history.

So the Holy Spirit, starting with chapter 12, really places this theme right at the center of the book and in my mind, at the center of my mind.

You see in chapter 12 a depiction of Christ. He's born of mother

Mary, the dragon who is satan, who satan attempts to devour him, but he eludes satan's grasp and he is raised up to heaven and seated at the right hand of God.

Then the dragon begins to pursue the woman into the wilderness where she goes for 1 ,260 days or three and a half years or times time and a half a time.

Now why this is so important is this is a great, great picture that is the foundation of it is laid in the old testament in the exodus.

The Jews, the Israelites are delivered from Egypt which represents the domain of darkness that Paul referred to.

They pass through the wilderness which represents the pilgrimage of the church and finally they enter the promised land which is where we're headed, the new heavens and the new earth.

So while we're going through the wilderness of this world, this dragon is using various institutions and personalities to try to trip up the bride of Christ, the woman, the wife, the bride.

What does he do? First of all he uses what I would call the political arm of the world system that's symbolized by the beast.

The symbols used in revelation have their roots in Daniel as you probably know and they symbolize in Daniel they symbolize the various beasts, symbolize world empires.

So the beast symbolizes the political arm of the world system that Satan uses to persecute the church all throughout her pilgrimage.

The false prophet or the beast from the earth represents the spiritual institutions which are used to either deceive or to oppress the true spiritual church and you notice where that first comes up,

I'm drawing a blank here, I think it's maybe chapter 13, where that first comes up the beast and the false prophet are working hand in hand.

The false prophet representing the spiritual institutions of the world system tries to get the people to worship the beast.

Now in the days of the New Testament you had these various Roman clerics that were trying to get people to worship

Caesar and so forth and that's how the text, that's what would have come to mind to New Testament believers.

But I do see clearly that this book is meant for the whole church, for her whole pilgrimage.

So the false prophet represents any religious institution working hand in hand with the state to persecute the church.

Think back in Reformation times how the Catholic church worked hand in hand with some of the kings and princes in Europe to try to crush the

Reformation. That's a good illustration of the false prophet at work. Then the final one of course is the harlot or the prostitute and that symbolizes the world system as temptress.

Whether you're thinking of money, business, culture, art, she tries to, instead of just trying to deceive religiously or to persecute with the edge of the sword, she tries to deceive the saints into losing their edge and to going over into a life of comfort and pleasure and debauchery.

So that's how I interpret those three symbols there and especially the false prophet.

I hope I answered your question. That was a long discourse. I want you to be as lengthy as possible in your explanations so you don't have to worry about over speaking.

I want you to be thorough on this and once again I apologize to our listeners that I'm operating this board in a way that I've never had to before due to our guest's hard of hearing difficulty and he gave me permission to announce that so I'm not embarrassing him by saying this and I just thank him for his patience with me as well.

We're going to be going to our next break so if you'd like to send us an email we will get to your questions eventually.

I do see a couple of the emails that our listeners have sent in. We will get to them eventually but we do have more meat to dig into in regarding this very complex issue that obviously has the church at large in great disagreement for centuries and it's amazing how brethren who are in lockstep on many other theological issues are divided over eschatology and I think next to music this is the most divisive issue that that we face as a church but we're going to be going to our next break right now and we hope that you stay tuned and we'll be right back after these messages so don't go away.

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Introducing 1031 sermon jams. But now for the good news that sounds like sweet music in the hell -bound sinner's ears especially if you're like me and you know that you don't need

Romans 3 to remind you of how wicked you are. If you would like to learn more about 1031 sermon jams visit us at our website at 1031sermonjams .com

or follow us on Twitter or Facebook. Welcome back this is

Chris Arns and if you've just tuned us in we are on our first day of a six -day marathon on end times or eschatology.

Today we are addressing amillennialism or amillennialism as some pronounce it and our guest to do so to who represents amillennialism is

Dean Davis. He is the author of the High King of Heaven and this is a book a massive 720 page book promoting the doctrine known as amillennialism or amillennialism and our email address if you have questions for our guest is chrisarnsen at gmail .com

c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com and we do have a listener we have

Hugh in Santa Rosa California who says could you discuss how premill all forms and postmill are all pre consummationist while only amill is post consummationist that is the the latter rightly sees the fullness of the blessing of the kingdom coming in the second coming not before.

I understand Hugh's question and I think that I do I'd like to address it this way the tendency of all the premillenarian systems is to fracture or fragment the consummation.

I had great joy in writing the chapter in the book on the consummation because I suppose the single most important thing that I could think about it or say about it is that God the father has designed it to be the moment in the history of the universe when the truth of his son and of his gospel is supremely and publicly vindicated.

God wants to put you know remember in John chapter 5 it says God desires uh all men to honor the son just as they honor the father so my reading of scripture is that God the father who designs highly to exalt

Jesus Christ his son at the you know in all stages of Christ's work but especially at the end has structured the consummation in such a way to give him the maximum amount of glory so how does he do that first of all there's a bunch of signs that take place leading up to it maybe we could discuss that later then the scripture says in Matthew 24 that the sun will not give us light and the moon will turn to blood the stars will fall from the sky it's not this is not just raw symbolism this is the breakup of the physical cosmos and Christ who comes back comes down from heaven with all of the saints and with all of the angels becomes the actual living center of the entire universe at his return and then in very quick succession there is the resurrection from the dead there is the transformation of the living saints there is the rapture not only of the church in the sense that God sends forth the angels and catches up all the believers to appear before the throne of Christ there's also a rapture of the wicked it says in Matthew 13 that that he will send forth his angels to gather out of his kingdom all things that offend so the way

I read scripture is that the angels will be very busy on that day bringing every human being that ever lived before the throne of Christ which

I visualize as being in the sky above the earth meanwhile the earth and its works are burned up with fire the last judgment occurs the saints are rewarded for all that they have done the wicked are turned away into the lake of fire and then the church descends on to the new heavens and the new earth which is the eternal home of the redeemed so the consummation is the most stupendous event in the history of the universe second perhaps only to the cross it is public it's glorious it's cosmic in its dimension it takes in everybody and everything that was ever created and the problem with these other scenarios is that they take a sledgehammer to it and they try to fracture it and break it up and I find it rather objectionable if I may say so my dispensational brothers first of all they have the sneaking back and taking the church out of the world and they having having come back you know seven years later but it isn't to wrap up history it's just to inaugurate the millennium and then you have all of the the highs and lows of the millennium and then you have a third consummation at the end of that time to do that you have to have multiple resurrections you have to have multiple transformations of the saints you have to have multiple judgments you have to have multiple transformations of the shape of the physical earth

I find these things completely unscriptural if you just focus as I said on the gospels the acts and the epistles and you take your eschatology from there

I call that the didactic new testament the portion of the new testament where you actually get taught things plainly without symbolic language you see that consistently the consummation is represented as a single momentous event to use the title of a great little book by W .J.

Greer a single momentous event which is centered around the coming of Jesus Christ in glory so I think the pre -millennial views as Hugh said in his question there they fracture the consummation they have a little of it before and a little of it after and you can't really tell where it is and it's terribly confusing to the church one of the things that I love about a millennialism is its profound simplicity he comes back once he's at the center of everything it all happens at once and when the holy spirit begins to open that up to you it's like light and energy just pours into your spirit from the from the future and from heaven above and it just inspires you and it makes you eager to share that good news to preach it to warn the nation and to get out there and preach the gospel it's vital for effectual preaching in particularly at this stage in history that we get our eschatology right and I think the amillennial eschatology really serves us well because it's so simple and so powerful and so christ -exalting we have another listener in Moncton New Brunswick Canada I'm sorry if I'm butchering the the first word there and the name of that city

Sean writes I'm wondering if Dean could give us his viewpoint on the importance of the text of first Corinthians 15 and how we can the resurrection of the dead with the second coming of the

Lord Jesus Christ by the way Sean has spearheaded a wonderful website called amillennialism .com

and I would certainly encourage all of your listeners who are interested in this subject to take a look at it oh

I have amillennialism .wordpress .com but is the one that you said the same yeah um so let me let me go into that question about first Corinthians 15 uh

Chris and just take it for a moment um there's a there's a lot of material in there and it would probably take too much time to read through the whole text um basically there's two sections of that chapter that I find very very interesting

I think that um in the back of my book I have a list of all of the

New Testament texts dealing with the consummation and this is one of two or three that is the most comprehensive in other words if you really really want an in -depth

New Testament look you go to the all of that discourse you go to first Corinthians 15 you go to first Corinthians and these will be very helpful to you um the part that I have find that finds so interesting is starts in verse 20 he says but now

Christ has been raised from the dead the first fruits of those who are asleep for since by a man came death by a man also came the resurrection of the dead or as in Adam all die so also in Christ all should be made alive but each in his own order now this is the part that gets interesting

Christ the first fruit so when Jesus rose on the third day he is the first fruits from the dead after that those who are

Christ at his coming or at his parousia so there is the resurrection if you will stage two the second half of the resurrection harvest comes in at the parousia now verse 24 what happens after that then comes the end the consummation the end of the age and the beginning of the new heavens and the new earth now

I'll show you that that's Paul's thought it says then comes the end when he delivers up the kingdom to God the father when he has abolished all rule all authority and all power now let's think about that what is he referring to there not just human rule or authority or power but the satanic powers and principalities as well in other words

Satan's kingdom is torn down and finally destroyed with the result the

Christ's kingdom is now complete all of the believers have gathered in and Jesus has created this beautiful new heaven and new earth so what's he do he delivers it up to God the father so that God may be all and all then he goes on for he must reign that is

Christ must reign up at the right hand of the father until he has put all his enemies under his feet the last enemy that will be abolished is death so when

Christ comes back raises the dead death which is the last enemy shall be put to death so our pre -millenarian brother says oh no that's not true after he comes back then there'll be a thousand years more people will die and then death will be put to put to death at the end of the thousand years well that's not what

Paul says he says at the second coming Christ will abolish the last enemy and the last enemy is death then there are some wonderful references in this same chapter which i won't go into but about the transformation of the living saints but it's very clear that in Paul's mind when

Jesus returns the dead in Christ rise first as he says in 1st

Thessalonians 4 then the living saints are transformed are given their glorified bodies and they all join the

Lord in the air being carried up there apparently by the angels when they meet the Lord for the last judgment and then they descend to the earth where they live forever great we do have a our first listener that has written a question to us since the inception of iron sharpens iron from India we have

Vincent in Bangalore India and he writes

Dean I'm one of your biggest fans and have been extremely blessed with your work and strongly recommend it to all

I think it will help all our Christian brethren listening if you would please explain what you think there is fog and confusing multiplicity of views as far as eschatology is concerned you've explained it very well in your introduction and that's

Vincent from Bangalore India well Vincent has been a dear friend he has he and I have exchanged many emails he's being gracious because he does disagree with me about Daniel nine and we love each other just the same in the introduction to the book

I just felt sort of led to suggest that maybe the confusion surrounding eschatology is not so discouraging as you might think at the first if you look back in church history it seems to me the amillennial view has been what

I call the default eschatology of the Christian church I did a little research on it in that book by Greer and I found that it was very interesting even though you'll hear the opposite from your pre -millenarian guests it looks like the majority of the authors were amillenarian the material in first clement polycarp the material in the epistle to the author of the didache was clearly amillennial the author of the epistle to Diognetus, Hippolytus, Origen, Eusebius and getting a little later of course

Athanasius and Augustine all of the reformers were amillenarian with the exception of a very small handful who some of them turned out to be rather unorthodox all of the historic creeds of the church with rare exceptions are amillenarian so what seems to have happened is that in these last days especially with the rise of dispensationalism there's been a moment a season of confusion

I like to think of the old cowboy shows where where the good guy is fighting the bad guy and the bad guy threw a little dust in his eyes and started taking a beating but then eventually his eyes cleared and he won the day and that's kind of how

I'd like to think about this I think that we are experiencing some spiritual warfare on the eschatological front for which reason there are quite a few different views they seem really really confusing but I would like to believe with the scriptures that as we approach the end of the age the

Lord Jesus will prepare his bride and help her to settle in in the aggregate

I mean I'm not saying this will be across the board but I think the majority of believers who sense the urgency of the times will begin to search the scriptures and I think that we will come to a probably a good consensus and I'd like to think and I do believe it will be the a millennial consensus so it says in Ephesians there chapter four until we all come to a mature man to a measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ do we have to wait for the second coming for that to take place probably but it looks like at least it implies that as we make our pilgrimage through the through history that what we have a wider and wider apprehension of truth and I think we will have a larger apprehension of truth in eschatology and I think a millennialism will carry the day if you could return to revelation 11 you said you had some more pressing issues that are relevant to our discussion from revelation 11 if you have anything further to say about that specifically

I would love to it's a very very deep rich chapter um but the point that I would like to make concerning it let me

I'm turning there right now here um it speaks of these two witnesses now in the dispensational commentaries you will find our brothers looking for two literal people to have the may some say uh moses some say elijah some say another prophet but if you embrace the idealistic interpretation of revelation you know that this is a book of symbols in fact right there in revelation chapter one jesus said he sent and signified these things he uses the greek word to to speak in science so these two men as are all of the images and all of the numbers in the revelation these two men are symbols they're signs of what

I think that they are a symbol of the church moving in prophetic power in fact it speaks of them in the days of their prophesying the things that will happen so I take it that this is the church jesus sent his disciples out two by two and they go forth in prophetic power and they preach the gospel to the nations now what happens this is one of those texts where you're dealing with the last battle so this is what it says when they have finished their testimony now they're at the end of the age the beast that comes up out of the abyss remember revelation chapter 20 this is a cross reference will make war with them and overcome them and kill them now you'll say that's a rather gloomy thought well it's not a happy thought no more than the killing of the lord jesus is a happy thought but this is what seems to be predestined for the church and listen to how the holy spirit makes it sweet and precious in our sight verse eight and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called sodom and egypt where also their lord was crucified this is not any particular individual city like babylon in iraq this is the city of the world system this is great babylon the world system conceived of as a city it was manifested in old testament times in sodom and in egypt where god's people were persecuted in new testament times it was manifested in jerusalem itself where jesus was crucified and those from the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will look at their dead bodies for three and a half days and will not permit their dead bodies to be laid in a tomb so it says a little then it goes on it says those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and they will send gifts to one another because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth as the church goes forth into the nations and preaches the gospel the holy spirit draws those whom god has chosen to christ and to the body and they become believers in the lord and their citizenship is translated to heaven not to the city of this world but the city above the jerusalem above and those who are of the world system however hate the message and they try to kill the messenger we're seeing a lot of that in the middle east and in africa north korea china this is what's happening the gospel torments the conscience of the unbeliever and there is this short period of time at the end of the age just before jesus returns when it will look as if the true evangelical spirit -filled church has been destroyed i don't think all believers will be martyred i don't believe that though i'm sure some will maybe many but the idea is that the new culture the new religion the new economy the new political system which probably will be global in nature will be so attractive so powerful that the church will become almost a complete irrelevancy she will not probably be permitted to worship evangelize and so forth but what's it say verse 11 after the three and a half days symbolizing a short season of difficulty you remember when elijah went into the wilderness for three and a half years because he was persecuted by ahab the holy spirit takes the number three and a half or 1260 or a time and times and a half time times and a half a time and uses these figures to symbolize a period of persecution that's the that's the symbolism behind the numbers it isn't a literal time frame so after the three and a half days that is after this short period of persecution and the seeming death of the church the breath of life from god comes into them they stood on their feet and great fear fell upon those who were beholding them and they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them come up here and they went up into heaven in the cloud and their enemies beheld them that's a picture using old testament language of the second coming of christ the rapture of the church they're going up to meet the lord in the air meanwhile the world system begins to collapse and break up it says in verse 13 in that hour there was a great earthquake a tenth of the city fell seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake the rest were terrified and gave glory to the god of heaven the second woe is passed behold the third woe is coming quickly and as i won't read the rest of it i'll let your listeners read that but he goes on to a very powerful description of the second coming of christ and the last judgment so i i take it that the holy spirit brings us to the end of the age and shows us that there will be this last battle so i hate to be the bearer of bad tidings your dispensational guests will be much more cheerful than me your post -millenarian guests will be more cheerful perhaps but if this is the truth it's got to ultimately be good it's got to ultimately be cheerful it's got to be helpful for god's people hugh writes back uh our listener that asked the question earlier why are you not willing to say that this is jerusalem which is uh which now is that of the law um if i were to go down that road i suppose the prophecy would have to apply directly to jewish people which i wouldn't want to do that what's in focus in revelation 11 is the world system depicted as a great city you find that in revelation 13 and other places chapter 14 but babylon the great we're not going to be able to find babylon the great on the map babylon the great is new york babylon the great is san francisco babylon the great is buenos aires it's calcutta wherever that wherever the the the world system is manifesting itself in anti -christian anti -god power that is the great city so i think here jerusalem he didn't specifically mention jerusalem here but the i i think uh the idea is that the city of god and the city of man are always opposed to one another before we get our last break uh dean i'd like you to think about a question and then you can answer it when we return but the question is what is the relationship between old covenant israel the israel that exists today and the church obviously you are fully aware being that many pre -millennium pre -millenarians uh and perhaps even some post -millennialists would identify our millennialism as anti -semitic or at least that it promotes anti -semitism and that uh that we are uh teaching what they would call replacement theology although i have never heard an amillennialist or a covenant theologian use the term replacement theology as a way to identify themselves but you have heard that that accusation and that label placed on amillennialists and even covenant theologians by others but when we return from the break if you could respond to that uh and primarily involving the the relationship that we have uh what is what is the what is the commonality and the difference between old covenant israel the israel today and the church and we're going to be right back after these messages and once again we thank our listeners for being very patient with us as we've had to deal with different means by which we broadcast today and i look forward to hearing from you if you have any further questions now is the time to send them in because we're running out of time we've only got less than a half hour left of the program and the email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com

chrisarnson at gmail .com don't forget to give your first name at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence if outside of the usa we'll be right back i'm james white of alphanomega ministries the new american standard bible is perfect for daily reading or in -depth studies used by pastors scholars and everyday readers the nasb is widely embraced and trusted as a literal and readable bible translation the nasb offers clarity and readability while maintaining high accuracy to the original languages which the nasb is known for the nasb is available in many editions like a topical reference bible researched and prepared by biblical scholars devoted to accuracy the new topical reference bible includes contemporary topics relevant to today's issues from compacted giant print bibles find an nasb that fits your needs very affordably at nasbible .com

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that's wrbc .us thriving financial is pleased to support iron sharpens iron radio while others see money as a goal thriving sees it as a tool for serving god family and community for more than a century thriving has helped its nearly two and a half million christian members make financial decisions that reflect their values while also helping them legitimately find out more by contacting me mike gallagher at 717 -254 -6433 thriving financial connecting faith and finances for good you know we were made for so much more than lending faith finances and generosity that's the private story we were made to thrive welcome back this is chris orms and if you just tuned us in for the last 90 minutes we have been discussing amillennialism with a proponent of that view which is detailed uh after doing exhaustive research in this monumental work the high king of heaven 720 page volume by our guest dean davis and this is just day number one of our six -day marathon on eschatology also called end times or last days or last things and if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own we only have less than 28 minutes uh to the broadcast so email us now at chris arnson at gmail .com

chris arnson at gmail .com before the break dean i asked you to give us your understanding of the relationship between old covenant israel the israel that we have today and the church if you could and perhaps even respond to the charges of anti -semitism by those outside of the amillennial camp well this is indeed a thorny question and one that there's a lot of emotion surrounding it um i don't know that in my christian experience i have ever in my life met any believer of any eschatological position that didn't have a special place in their hearts for jewish neighbors uh everybody who knows the bible has an intuitive feeling that god himself has a special place in his heart for the jews and i think that it is this awareness that drives some of the animosity of some of our premillenarian brothers towards amillenarians it is problematic of course that in the history of protestantism we have had some anti -semitism or seeming anti -senitism from our leaders such as luther and so forth i'm sure brother luther regrets anything that was genuinely anti -semitic at this moment and would never endorse it at all so i just want to lay that as a foundation sometimes um i'm just going to kind of just speak out of my heart here i may i may not jump on your question immediately but i will try to get get back to that oftentimes a millenarians are accused of trying to rob israel of her promises and so forth that are given to her in the old testament the simple point that i would like to make is that it seems to me that a biblically sound a millennial eschatology is one that actually should be that reflects a great interest in and a great love for and a great hope for the jewish people my understanding of the relationship of the jewish people as a physical race as the physical descendants of abraham would go something like this god created the family of abraham and later the nation of israel as a picture of his church now when i say church i don't mean just the gentiles i mean believers of all times and of all places ever since the beginning well all the way back to adam and eve and brother abel all who have faith in christ either looking forward to him as the promised seed or the promised messiah or looking back to him as the true messiah who died on the cross for us every one of those individuals whether jew or gentile are part of the true spiritual church god only has people and that is the called out ones of jesus christ of all generations jew and gentile so the old testament family of israel family of abraham and the nation of israel was a picture of the church within israel ethnic israel there were believers and unbelievers jacob have i loved he was a believer esau have i hated he was not a believer you think in the wilderness there about korra or uh you know or ahithophel later on the opponent of david or some of the maybe the wicked sons of eli these are jewish in name only but they are not spiritual israel their hearts were not circumcised they had no faith they were not called of the lord so in all history in all jewish history there's been a distinction between israel according to the flesh as paul refers to it and israel according to the spirit now in the plan of god according to romans 9 through 11 it went like this god sent his son into the world and an elect remnant of jews at that time trusted in him so they joined the ranks of spiritual israel the majority of the nation however did not and they remained in the ranks of israel according to the flesh they rejected christ with the result that the jewish branch was broken off and the gospel went out into the nations and the gentile branch was grafted in in other words ethnic jews were broken off from spiritual israel from the true tree of abraham and spiritual jews who happened to be ethnic gentiles were grafted back in that's the picture there with the coming of the new covenant there is a new institution called the church and it replaces the mosaic theocracy i believe in replacement theology to that extent the church and its institutions replace the jewish theocracy the ceremonial law of the temple you know the the the temple worship and the various feasts are all fulfilled in christ and we worship according to the ordinances given by the lord jesus and the apostles and this is the new form of the people of god it is the new set of institutions by which we worship but today is it is true today as it was in times past there are jews and gentiles who are members of this spiritual israel now to bring it to the happy conclusion as i read romans 11 and i'm not in total agreement here with some of my reformed brothers but i i think this is true it seems to me that paul very clearly teaches that as we approach the end of the age god will revisit the ethnic jew whether it's in new york city or jerusalem or wherever he lives and a great great multitude of them will respond to the preaching of the gospel and they will be grafted back in by the way let me say that if you read romans 11 you see that paul actually predicts that the gentile branches will be broken off at the end and the jewish branch will be grafted back in now i think that's what we're seeing in europe today and we may be seeing it in america that gentile branches seem to be getting lopped off hopefully in preparation for the grafting in of the jew and when that happens according to romans 11 it will be life from the dead wow what a wonderful promise i believe that that refers to the second coming of christ and the resurrection of the dead and the inauguration of the world to come in which the true spiritual children of abraham the true spiritual israel comprised of jew and gentile will worship christ and god forever so i think that the aml view of the future of the jews is one that is very honoring in fact it kind of looks at the jews as the book ends of salvation history god's redemptive program begins with abraham the physical jew and it and it ends with the restoration of a whole bunch of his physical children so israel becomes the book ends of salvation history we gentiles are in the middle and i think that is highly honoring to the jewish people and it certainly doesn't reflect anti -semitism yes and you made a comment about those from the reformed camp uh which i happen to be one i know that there is a diverse number of opinions regarding how to view ethnic israel and israel today you know and even amongst the amillennial and post -millennial spectrum because obviously you have optimistic amillennialists and post -millennialists who are calvinists would agree with much of what you said if not all of it but going back to the term replacement theology i know many brethren who would say that because of the church fulfilling uh spiritually the the picture of israel that was given in the old covenant uh that that is not a replacement it's a fulfillment and they would see a distinction between using those terms i like that i think you make a good point there uh it is a fulfillment as long as we agree that the old testament institutions are obsolete the problem with our pre -millenarian brethren is that they look for a return to those institutions in the millennium and that strikes me as going backwards it's very clear that from hebrews chapter 8 that those old testament institutions having been fulfilled are now obsolete and they are ready to vanish away and now they have so yes i like that distinction fulfillment versus replacement and i'm assuming that the words in first peter chapter two have a lot to do with your view of the church now being a holy nation and a royal priesthood and so on yes absolutely and i just want to underline this fact again chris because for 150 years we have been marinated in dispensationalism when we hear the word church we start thinking gentile but peter didn't think that way peter knew that there were many many jewish believers along with a great multitude of gentile believers and they were the chosen race they were the royal priesthood they were the people who formerly had not received mercy and now they have received mercy so it has nothing to do this debate has nothing to do with ethnic prejudice it just has to do with clearly identifying the true people of god and i think most a millenarians and covenant theologians would simply say there's always been one people the people who love jesus whether whether jew or gentile i'm assuming by everything that you said that you would reject a view which is a minority view today but a view held by some that there are no people today that can be authenticated as being ethnic israel because of the intermarriage that has taken place over the centuries and they would say that the people who call themselves or identify themselves as jews would be remnants or czars a russian group oh boy i'm sorry i'm out of my depth though i really have never heard much about that um you know i i i guess i feel that if somebody self -identifies as a jew and they rep and they can identify a dad or a mom who is jewish i i pretty just i just follow their their self -identification but um we'll have to let the lord sort that all out well in regard to the nation of israel that uh nation in the middle east that was formerly known as palestine uh is that a gathering of people that just falls under the heading of god's providence and uh that it has no connection with actual biblical prophecy well that's an excellent question um i wrestled with that in a long appendix in my book it was entitled is the modern nation of israel a fulfillment of biblical prophecy uh the short answer to that is no i do not think that the creation of the nation of israel is in fulfillment of any specific prophecy that i can find or i can understand my reading of the old testament prophecies of israel's restoration is that typically these prophecies are sort of blended and they refer in the foreground to the restoration of israel from babylon back to palestine but then the holy spirit notches it up and begins to speak of an eschatological restoration to the land this i believe is fulfilled in the new birth when we are born again we are seated in heavenly places we are we are met we become members of the jerusalem above we are planted on the zion above it says to hebrew hebrews 12 there we have come to the design above so the old testament prophecies of the kingdom that speak of the restoration of eschatological israel israel in the last days these are fulfilled among jews and gentiles who are spiritually reborn into the church now going back to your question the way i think of this is that yes it is an act of god's providence that he has brought together the jews in their ancient homeland and it may be in part in preparation for this final visitation of the holy spirit upon the jewish people maybe many people around the world jewish people will want to gather back there and continue to express solidarity with their brothers and sisters so um what i think is not so good and what is dangerous is to begin to think of these jewish people who are largely secular as somehow the objects of god's saving favor when in fact they very much just like everybody else they need to hear the gospel and they need to believe on the lord jesus christ at the end of romans 11 there paul does seem to me to speak of a latter -day visitation of the spirit where the lord will as it were come out of the zion above and he will visit this his ancient jewish people and he will and he will bring them in so the only understanding or maybe i should say speculation that i have is this is an act of providence to place the jewish people once again on the stage of history in a significant way and to do so in anticipation of their conversion and to christ uh if if you could uh define the kingdom of god because that's another issue that people disagree on in regard to a definition well very quickly i think probably half of my book deals with this question i identify it as the single most important underlying issue of eschatology if we can get clear on this we will solve all problems quickly the second thing that's important to say is that when you go to think about the kingdom you must go to what i called earlier the didactic new testament you can't go to ezekiel you can't go to daniel you can't go to isaiah you can't go to the revelation you must go to the gospels and the epistles and for supplementary information the book of acts because there you have the fullness of god's progressive revelation there you have christ and the apostles teaching us plainly whereas in old testament times all things came under a veil of types and shadows that's so important our premillenarian brothers want to interpret these prophecies of the kingdom literally but you will not find the apostles doing that they interpret them figuratively as being fulfilled in the church and in the spiritual kingdom that jesus came to inaugurate now to answer your question very quickly there's two essential questions here what is the nature of the kingdom according to the didactic new testament and what is the structure the nature of the kingdom is very clear from a number of texts but i like john chapter 3 nicodemus you know he what he came to jesus in the middle of the night and he said he said brother you know all of us can see you do these great miracles teach us about the kingdom so jesus did and he said you need to be born again you need to be born from above you need to look upon him who is going to be lifted up as a serpent in the wilderness was and you need to gaze upon him so that you will find forgiveness of sins and eternal life and you will enter the kingdom you will be reborn so for jesus christ the kingdom of god by this my definition is the direct reign of god the father through christ by the power of spirit working in the regenerate person in their hearts bringing them to repentance and faith that's the nature of the kingdom now the kingdom enters the history in two simple stages you read matthew 13 especially the parable of the wheat and the tares you see that jesus distinguishes between the kingdom of the son which is the kingdom of the son of god as he rules at the right hand of the father with all authority in heaven and earth he sends his gospel messengers into the nation they sow the seed of the word of god the seed of the gospel onto the ground people believe and they are born again and they enter the spiritual kingdom it's not a visible kingdom it's not a physical kingdom it's just or this present season this present era between the first and second coming of christ it is a spiritual reign i like colossians 3 there he says he says uh if you have been born again and seated up there in the in the heavenlies with christ keep looking up to him where christ is reigning and when he returns you too will be revealed in glory so the second stage of the kingdom comes after the second coming of christ the resurrection from the dead the transformation of the living the creation of the new heavens and the earth now the kingdom is not just spiritual and invisible now it's spiritual and physical and visible but at no point is there ever any reversion to old testament institutions no going backwards to temples animal sacrifices priests any of that we rule christ rules over our hearts now by faith and in that happy day when he comes again we'll get he'll rule over us by sight i can't wait yeah amen um the in regard to any old covenant prophecies that the pre -millennarians uh very often will address uh and perhaps some of our post -millennial brethren uh in regard to the book of daniel and so on do you do you care to share anything before our time runs out you have about you have about five minutes to do that oh i i think i can do that fairly easily if if if you become uh let's see here hang on i'm going to look on my computer for one sec here and i'll i'll take you into a scripture if you become fully persuaded that the structure of the kingdom is is as i just described it that it enters history in these two simple stages then when you go back to the old testament you're gonna you're going to say to yourself something like this okay here's isaiah in chapter 11 and he's talking about the last days and he's talking about the messiah and he's talking about what messiah is going to do is this fulfilled in the first stage of the kingdom when the gospel is going forth through the gospel messengers through evangelism and and and god is reigning spiritually or is this fulfilled in the second stage of the kingdom after jesus comes back in the new heavens and the new earth if you are absolutely convinced that those are the only two options you're not going to read it as a pre -millenarian are you no you won't do that you'll say the millennium is just a symbol of this first stage of the kingdom the kingdom of the sun so very quickly the messiah's reign in isaiah 11 there shall come forth a rod for the stem of jesse and a branch shall grow out of his roots that's jesus he got born at the very very beginning of the church era the era of proclamation the spirit of the lord shall rest upon him the spirit of wisdom and understanding the spirit of counsel and might the spirit of knowledge and the fear of the lord this describes him certainly in his earth walk and all the more so now that he's up at the right hand of the father he will delight in the fear of the lord and he shall not judge by the sight of his eyes nor decide by the hearing of his ears but with righteousness he shall judge the poor and decide with equity for the meek of the earth now our pre -millenarian brothers will say there you are that shows that he's going to be in jerusalem and he's going to be acting as a judge but i don't read it that way my reading of the new testament tells me that when christ judges in favor for the poor of the earth it's that he honors their humility their repentance and their faith and he justifies them he judges that they are righteous in the sight of god because they have trusted in him you see this reference to the meek of the earth you go to the sermon on the mount what does he say blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth now you go to isaiah 11 4b and 5 he shall strike the earth with the rod of his mouth with the breath of his lips he shall slay the wicked righteousness shall be the belt of his faithfulness the belt of his waist so that is paul in his description of the second coming of christ in second thessalonians refers to this very verse which refers to jesus coming again and now chris here's the text you wanted me to comment on earlier the wolf shall dwell with the lamb the leopard will lie down with the young goat the calf and the young lion and the fatling together and a little child shall lead them the cow and the bear shall graze their young ones shall lie down together and the lion shall eat straw like the ox the nursing child shall play by the cobra's hole the weaned child shall put his hand on the viper's den they shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the lord as the waters covers the sea i don't take this exactly literally it's kind of an opaque window into the new heavens and the new earth it uses old testament language and old testament promises the old testament promised ancient israel that if they were obedient to god's law then they wouldn't get eaten by animals so it's a picture of the children of god who love the lord dwelling in security and in safety and peace and in the presence of the lord the whole earth becomes god's holy mountain and the whole world is covered with the knowledge of the lord as the waters cover the sea do you think that our millennialists uh interpret any less uh literal interpretations or hold to any less interpret literal interpretations than the pre -millenarians do uh aren't they just different places where they're held literally and figuratively than our pre -millennium pre -millenarian brethren you're picking up my good habit of calling them brothers i like to be a peaceful soul here's what i do in in the book i distinguish between different kinds of prophecy there is what i call simple messianic prophecy which can be literally interpreted these are fulfilled prior to the coming of the kingdom which i mark as the day of pentecost when the when the church was reborn spiritually on the day of pentecost that's the beginning of the kingdom so god made many specific predictions about the birth of jesus to a virgin where he would live in galilee how he would perform miracles it talked about um you know a lot lots and lots about the manner of his death and his betrayal and the resurrection these are vital equipment for the church to show that god is absolutely in control of and knows the entire future but when you go in to the eschatological era when the scripture says in the last days or in that day then you know that you are post -pentecost and at that point the new covenant comes into play we're out of time dean we're out of time uh and i want to thank everybody for listening i hope that you always remember that jesus christ is a far greater savior than you are a sinner go to om millennialism .wordpress