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To another edition of the Conversations That Matter podcast, my name is John Harris. I have a guest with me today who's actually a returning guest. We've had Eric Muldrow on before to talk about Black Lives Matter.
And Eric has over 20 years in law enforcement experience, as well as he's also the host, I should say, of Code Red Conversations, which you can find on YouTube, and we'll put the link to his website in the info section, coderedconversations .com.
Eric, welcome again to the program. Hey, thanks, John. Thanks for having me on today. My pleasure. Well, I want to get right to the issue at hand, which is the verdict that was reached in the George Floyd, Derek Chauvin case.
I shared a few thoughts on my podcast, but I'd like to hear what you think, because I know you follow this more closely, or closely, or that's not a word, more close than I have. And you, with your experience in law enforcement, I think probably have a unique way of looking at this in a more knowledgeable, incredible way.
So what did you think when you first heard that verdict?
Well, for one, I wasn't shocked, considering the current state, the current climate that we're in as a nation. If he didn't receive anything, I knew that there was no way he would walk away from this scot-free.
I knew that that was a basic impossibility. First of all, you're talking about the state of Minnesota, and they're very liberal in a lot of ways. So you're dealing with that issue, and then you're also dealing with a culture that has demonstrated itself to be violent.
And the unfortunate thing was the jury wasn't sequestered throughout this whole case. So you had people, you had witnesses having pigs blood thrown on their door of their homes. You have protesters, you have people posting on social media saying if he doesn't receive a murder verdict and get all charges placed on him, we're going to burn the city down.
So I knew he was going to be found guilty on something. What exactly? I wasn't sure. So that was the first thing. So then when he got found guilty on all accounts, I just started doing a little bit more research on the penalties and the elements that need to be met in order for a person to be found guilty of committing a crime.
Every crime has certain elements. I'm just throwing an example out just for the listening audience. Here in the state of Nevada, I live in Las Vegas, I was a cop here in Vegas. When you look at a battery, you have the battery, let's say robbery, it's the unlawful taking a personal property from the person of another.
And I'm going to paraphrase it because it gets into a lot of weird terms. But you basically have to threaten someone with force or use force against them in order for a robbery to be met. So you can snatch something and just take off running out of a store, and that's not robbery.
If on your way out of the store, the owner tries to stop you and you shove them or you threaten them, threaten to punch them in the face, then it becomes a robbery attempt. So something can be as simple as a misdemeanor crime could turn into a felony crime based on the threat or actual use of violence.
So when I looked at the manslaughter charges and the second and third degree murder charges that were placed on Derek Chauvin, I just started sitting back and examining and I watched as much as the trial as possible.
Of course, I don't think anyone was there. I'm sure there are people out there, but I couldn't watch the entire thing. But I tried to watch a few hours every single day so I can at the very least be informed.
So at the end, when it was all said and done, like I said, I wasn't shocked. But on the other side, I struggled with how they met some of the elements to find him guilty in some of the higher offenses, the third degree murder, for instance.
I really wrestled with that.
So why specifically did you wrestle with third degree murder and that specific charge?
Well, I have something on my screen, something here. I'm going to read it while I'm talking to you. Hopefully it's not messing with what you're looking at. The definition for the state of Minnesota, the Minnesota statute, this is per 2020.
It says murder in the third degree, whoever without intent to affect the death of any person causes the death of another person by perpetrating an act eminently dangerous to others. And this is the area that kind of threw me off here.
And we were talking about this before we started to broadcast. And evincing a depraved mind without regard for human life is guilty of murder in the third degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for more than 20 years.
And then they have B, whoever without intent to cause death proximately causes the death of a human being by directly or indirectly, unlawfully selling, giving away, bartering, delivering, exchanging, distributing, or administering a controlled substance.
So it's the terminology that was used. And I was basically trying to figure out what exactly they were trying to say with that. And so far from what I saw, it seemed to be, I came across not, you don't necessarily have to be.
And like I said, this was just me skimming through it. So this isn't a clear definitive answer or definition of that. But it's like you have to be almost like to have some level of carelessness in your actions.
So on one degree, I understand it, but it just seemed to be a little tough. It's at sometimes carelessness or some type of willful malice. And I think that they were trying to determine that he was malicious in his actions.
And I guess showcasing a depraved mind by, you know, that almost sounds like the term cruel and unusual, like he's doing something so outside the norm that it's just it shocks everyone. And I realize that video shocked me.
It shocked a lot of people, I think, when we initially saw it. Since then, though, I know that there's been an autopsy report and there has been an extended body cam footage release, which I'm sure you've looked at.
And I think that changed the minds of a lot of people in how they looked at the case because they thought that, you know, it wasn't just that first initial video we saw. There was more to it. And it may not have even been Chauvin who caused the death of George Floyd directly.
It was, you know, methamphetamines and and, you know, drugs in his system that contributed to this at the very least. Do you do you feel that do you think as a police officer, the standard that would have to be met has been reached beyond a reasonable doubt?
Chauvin's the one that killed George Floyd. Or do you think that there's at least enough question in that that maybe a lesser charge would have been more appropriate?
My mindset was that based on my experience in law enforcement, having interacted with the legal system, the judicial system on many occasions, having had to appear in court to based on my own report writing.
I thought that my biggest concern was that Derek Chauvin, first of all, he wouldn't receive a fair trial. I don't think it was possible. Due to the amount of publicity that that whole event took place, that whole that whole event received, I don't think and I'm not being sympathetic to the guy.
I think what he did was horrible. And he he is largely to blame for what went down and what he did was just ridiculous, reprehensible as an officer who has any level of training. I don't understand why he would even think that the tactics and techniques that he used were even close to rational and good.
And he wasn't a rookie. If it was a rookie doing that, it would be a little bit more excusable. But with all that being said, my main concern, my main issue was that did it just going off of what you were saying, the question you asked, if he if he if it met the standard of beyond a reasonable doubt.
And I thought that his defense attorney did a good enough job at times to throw a little doubt into the into that whole question. But when it's all said and done, I also think that the prosecution did a good job, had a strong case, from my perspective, of demonstrating that his actions did impact, did cause some injury and did and could have impacted whether he lived or not.
So that's basically what I'm saying. I think that both sides presented a solid case. I think both sides hit home runs and both sides fouled out and struck out on multiple occasions. But when it's all said and done, when you have a case that has so much publicity and so many people talking about it, it's so many people in a rage and upset.
I just truly don't see how there was any way that guy could walk out. And then we're not even talking about some of the comments that were made by Maxine Waters and people like that, people in positions of authority, making claims, talking about it and go our way.
We're going to you know, we need to be more in people's faces. We need to be more aggressive. And this is while riots are going on. She she makes a statement. So I think that definitely impacted the it.
Like I said, these people weren't sequestered. So I think it definitely impacted the jury's decision.
Yeah. And I don't know if that's normal or not, not just I would have thought that would be in common sense to sequester the jury, but they didn't. And they would have heard Maxine Waters tweets. And if they had their phones, which I don't know if they did, they certainly would have heard what Joe Biden had said, probably as a newsflash coming up on their phone, which I mean, I just can't imagine going back into those communities as jurors.
And then, you know, you want to be that one person who, you know, kept the verdict from being reached because you had a little bit of reasonable doubt in your mind. You know, you probably have pig's blood on your home and maybe more than that.
So I think if you even had a home, if you. Yeah, that's right. It could have been burned down. I guess my question, the bigger question in all this is, what does this do for the future of of the justice system in general in the United States?
Because this has been such a highly publicized event. And I know that the left, the Black Lives Matter movement, at least, seems to already have a suspicion about the justice system. It's systemically racist.
It's not fair, et cetera. Now it seems like the right is also having some skepticism with media influence on jurors and that kind of thing. I mean, do you think that we're losing faith in our institutions?
Yeah, I think we can go back in history and say that a lot of people always had questions about the legal system, especially when you're talking about the black community. That is almost like a given.
We assume that the legal system doesn't work. And because of the history, because of the tainted, ugly history and nowadays what we have, we have people out there who continue to stir the pot, keep us angry, keep us questioning, doubting the legal system.
Like all you have to do is look at the political game. If the political left doesn't like something, what do they use? It always goes to racism. Voter ID, racist. There can't be any other reason for someone to have that opinion other than the fact that they're bigoted, that they do it because they hate black folks, they do it because they hate Hispanics.
That's the argument that they use. So this whole topic of questioning the legal system, I'm not saying that there isn't some any historical foundation for it because there is. But I believe that over the years, this is what I was thinking, a little bit of an aside, while I was sitting there watching this case, I was thinking to myself, man, it feels good to be in a country where a person who's accused can have an opportunity to defend himself.
He has an opportunity. He has a it's well, legally, it's alleged that he has a presumption of innocence. Now, we know people try through the court of public opinion all the time, but he has a presumption of innocence.
He can present his evidence to make his case. And it's up to the state primarily to prove that he is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. So where does this put us? Right. Let me finish what I was saying there.
Just so as I was watching it, I was like, man, I'm I'm proud to be an American citizen. I love being in this country because I don't know of any other countries that has a court system quite like we do for all its words, for all its flaws.
It made me feel good. And I said, if I'm going to be tried anywhere, I'd rather I want to be tried in a system like that. But what say again? I said, right. I was agreeing with you. I would, too. Yeah.
So when we look at how this impacts, I think that we were already on rocky ground. Now, I don't know. I watch some of your content when it comes to the election and some of the allegations of election fraud and things like that.
I think that our legal system is currently on some very shaky ground anyway, because a lot of people were fearful of making some tough decisions during the whole the months that followed the election.
So I think that now what we see is tyranny, terroristic threats, threats of violence rules the day. BLM can protest. They can burn down buildings and people will respond the way that they want them to out of fear.
I think that's where we are.
Yeah, I think it was a commentator on Fox News, Greg Gutfield, who had said something along the lines of he was grateful for the verdict, not because he actually thought it was the correct verdict necessarily, but because he didn't want to see cities aflame again.
That's crazy. Right. And that's I mean, he's supposedly a more conservative commentator, but I think he's being honest about the way many people feel, which is a scary place to be, in my mind, that we you know, we would be happy about the possibility of justice being subverted in a situation because we just really don't want that level of violence.
What does this do for you, on the other hand, on the way I view it is, man, if we aren't willing to stand up for what we believe to be true. Now, I'm not saying that Chauvin should have gotten off. I'm not saying anything like that.
But if there was ever if there was any doubt placed in any of the jurors mind, then I hope that they would have spoken up.
And you think at least one juror would have had, you know, questions about. But so the other question, this is one I think that's really suited for you is the future of policing, because we have an incident in Columbus, Ohio, now that parallels sort of the timing of this verdict being reached in the Chauvin case.
And the police department released the body cam footage right away. And I wondered, you know, is this going to lead to more situations where policemen are required to have body cams? They have to release the footage right away to prevent a riot.
Or is this going to change officers? It probably already has. And they're the rules of engagement or at least the unofficial rules in their minds.
Yeah, there's no this is already what we're seeing is fruit of years of people questioning officers in a manner that I would deem unfair, unfairly. When we go back to the Michael Brown or Eric Garner case in New York and then the Michael Brown case.
And then so what you have is the court of public opinion, the rumor mill, which gets people believe in a specific narrative. Eric, Michael Brown, for instance, people assume that the whole concept of hands up, don't shoot was ultimately found to be a lie.
It never took place. Based on the other eyewitness testimony, the other eyewitness statements, when the DOJ came in, the Eric Holder under the Obama administration came in. They found that he that that Michael Brown basically attacked Darren Wilson and attempted to take his gun, his fingerprints, his DNA was found on his weapon.
Darren Wilson had injuries from the whole incident. But before that, you had people saying that. He threw his hands up, he didn't want to get him, he didn't want Darren Wilson to shoot him. And Darren Wilson basically just shot him in cold blood.
But when it was all said and done, we learned the truth. The facts came out. But by the time the facts came out, people had already had their opinion and that barely made the headlines. So you have years and years of people questioning the tactics of police officers, you have what is commonly referred to nowadays as the Ferguson effect.
There's such a backlash, an angry backlash towards police people, assuming that the police are the enemy of of the minority enemy of black people. So the police are like, if we can't even go in there and conduct business accordingly, do our normal jobs.
So we're not going to go in there. And then what do you see as a result? So you see crime skyrocketing. We fast forward this to 2020, 2021, after the whole George Floyd, the nation burned behind the whole George Floyd incident, what do we see throughout the nation, the move to defund or even abolish the police?
And as a result of that, every major city or every city that that was desiring or actually went forward with defunding the police ended up backtracking because they saw crime go through the roof. In some places it went up, robberies, murders went up 200%.
So the impact is already there. And now you have a lot of cops. You have, you have the recruitment, recruitment rate dropping significantly all over the country because who in their right mind right now, what young person or older person for that matter would say, Hey, you know what, I want to raise my hand and volunteer and be a cop nowadays.
I mean, you would have to be a nut. I wouldn't want to go back into the field. And I loved what I did. And I'm a black man. I think I'd have a little easier, honestly, being a cop, but at the same time, you still have to deal with the issues of police, of people accusing you of the wrong, always doing the wrong thing, the situation we saw in Ohio, the shooting we saw in Ohio just a few days ago, you have a, a cop arrived on scene and what does he see?
He sees a fight going on. You see a grown man, kick a little kid in the head and you see a girl trying to stab two other girls. And that cop was forced to make a decision. You have a potential deadly threat in front of you.
And now you have celebrities and politicians railing against that cop. Like he was the bad guy in the middle of all this. Oh, she was just defending herself. But even if that was the case, she was the only one, if that's true.
She was the only one that actually threatened deadly force. Yeah. So that cop had that cop, his hand was forced and he did what he had to do.
LeBron James even posted a picture of the police officer saying you're next.
Right. Like as if you're the next chauvinist in so many different ways. Like, what does that mean?
Yeah. I took it as the, you're the next, you know, chauvin kind of, uh, you know, you're, we're going to get you too. Um, you know, the sad, the prediction that I have, I don't know if you agree, but you look at a country like South Africa and obviously we do not parallel South, South Africa in every single way.
But of course they had, um, they had apartheid for many years and then, um, they voted apartheid out and decided to open things up, but then the ANC, the communist party took over and they've been ruling ever since.
And it's been, um, it's been horrific to see, uh, really what amounts to almost like a genocide going on there even now. It's, uh, and I, I know, um, cause I know some people who live there that the, basically there's a lot of robberies.
There's a lot of crime and there's, there's still, it's not apartheid in the sense that it was back in, you know, like the sixties, but there's a, um, an unofficial kind of almost apartheid where you have, um, long, you know, big, tall fences, guarding gated communities, uh, community watch organizations.
And because the police, you can't trust them. So people end up making their own militias and, uh, getting their own security systems. Uh, and, and, and then everyone else, you know, there's two classes of people and those who aren't, you know, in those gated communities, uh, are impoverished.
And this is supposedly, I thought what black lives matter wanted to rectify this, you know, power disparity, uh, you know, financial disparity between, uh, black people in their minds and then, uh, and white people specifically.
But it seems like this kind of thing is just going to cause everyone to move out of these areas who has any, any money, any kind of way to develop them. Um, it's like shooting yourself in the foot. I mean, what do you think?
That's an accurate prediction that we're just going to get more and more separated as a result of this.
Oh, I think definitely. I think that's, there's no question about it. That's what we see happening. Oh yeah. I just looked through my timeline on a daily basis on Facebook. Just when I wake up in the morning, you have people who are very divisive.
I see less and less of the people who are pro BLM and support organizations like that. I think they probably just all unfriended me or they just moved on. Honestly, because especially being a black man and I, and as a conservative, first of all, as a Christian, as a Christian, whose political, whose, whose politics have been formed by my Christian faith is it wasn't the other way around.
Like my, my Christian faith comes first and foremost. So as a result, I, it forced me to challenge my old political views. And when, where I used to be vote predominantly Democrat, when I had pastors, leaders, men, I respected start challenging me, challenging me on my stance, on my views, man, I was really convicted.
And by the grace of God, I really started thinking biblically and not just thinking socially or trying to think or act in a way that fits the culture or, or, or better put the predominant culture as a black man.
And so, yeah, I think that there is a excellent chance for our nation to move, to be further separated because we're already seeing it is definitely being divided down ethnic lines. And the people who will suffer the most are the very ones that BLM claims to care so much about.
Because when it's all said and done, if cops aren't policing, if you have an area, if you live in an area that is a high crime area and cops aren't policing in there, the people who are living there will be the ones who suffer.
And that's what we see continually.
It's sad. There was a girl I heard about it. I haven't seen anything at a McDonald's and a drive-thru. Yeah. In Chicago, yeah. And, and, and just, just got shot, you know, in, in middle of the day, but um, what, so, I mean, I, you know, you always want to end on a hopeful note, but it, you know, I don't know if that you can do that with this.
I mean, it's, it's, there's a divide, our country is being divided. What advice do you have, if any, for people who, um, are just concerned about this whole situation? I mean, I know you're, you're into, uh, personal defense and, and taking security measures and being smart about kind of like the way you live.
I mean, do you have any advice for anyone in regards to that? Maybe.
Yeah, I would definitely say, do what you can to make sure you can defend yourself. I think it's, it could be challenging depending on where you live. Certain cities, certain States are very strict, make it very tough for people to own guns.
So there's that challenge right there. But especially when we're talking about some of these urban, urban communities, the communities where people, you talk on one end, you talk, they, they push defunding the police.
And then at the same time, they don't want you to be able to protect yourself with a gun. They want, they want to have what they ultimately want is absolute gun control. They may not come out and say it, but we, if anyone who has an ounce of common sense knows that that that's the path that they want to go down.
So do whatever you can do to prepare yourself. When you go out in public, be mindful of your environment. Those saying in policing is keep your head on the swivel, basically make sure you're paying attention to what's going on behind you.
Don't keep your, don't be so focused on your cell phone while you're walking through a public area, walking through the store, know what's happening. If you see something unusual, something that makes you feel uncomfortable, feel free to leave.
Don't feel as if you have to stay around, but when we back up and we go. And when we examine things, uh, from a different level, I would say I had a conversation with a friend of mine. She works for the fellowship of Christian athletes at Arkansas.
And she's really afraid to speak up and speak her mind about these issues. White lady, her and her husband, they're like some of the sweetest people I know. And when we were living in Arkansas, me and my, me and my family, they basically took us in, uh, to some degree.
They were my son. One of my sons was diagnosed with cancer a few years ago. And the love that they poured out on us was unreal. I get emotional thinking about it. They didn't know us at all, at all. We were members of the same church, but they went out of their way and we're from different worlds.
I mean, he's, he is a redneck, he stutters. He, but we became best friends by the grace of God, by the, through the blood of Jesus, we became best friends. And so I was talking to her yesterday and she's, she, she, she's really concerned with the state of our country.
They can't even pass out fly, uh, track flyers in, in the high schools because they say that the FCA fellowship of Christian athletes isn't inclusive. They can't pass stuff out. That's what she's dealing with now.
And so I say all that to say, I think our silence at people who don't want to be offensive. The average citizen doesn't want to hurt people's feelings. You don't want people mad at you for disagreeing with some of these social issues.
But I posted this yesterday, yesterday on Facebook. I said, the problem with that is our silence and inaction has led us to where we are right now. People not speaking up people, not being willing to get involved and to take on these hard fights.
And yes, unfortunately, maybe suffering the consequences for that. You could possibly lose your job. That's very real. I don't want to deny that. But at the same time, if we serve, especially for those who's anyone who's listening, who's a believer, if we represent the very author of truth, why are we shying away from it?
Why do we do that? We have to understand. We have to remember that Jesus said, if they hate you, remember that they hated me first. So we have to be willing to put ourselves in a position where we have to be challenged and face the, the, the inevitable suffering that comes in this world as a believer.
So stand up for what you know, to be true and don't shy away from.
Good word. Yeah, I absolutely agree with everything you just said. And I appreciate you weighing in on this, uh, your website coderedconversations .com, right? Yes, sir. Yes, sir. And, uh, and on YouTube, I'll put the links in the info section for those who want to check out your content more.
I'm thankful for you, brother. And I appreciate you weighing in once again, God bless. Hey brother. Appreciate you having me on. Thank you.
