Dead Men Walking #127 Doug Wilson: Cuss words, sinful drum beats, and music is not neutral

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Exploring Theology, Doctrine, and all of the fascinating subjects in between. Broadcasting from an undisclosed location.

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Dead Men Walking starts now. Well hello everyone, welcome back to another episode of Dead Men Walking Podcast.

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We appreciate you being along for the ride. We appreciate you going to dmwpodcast .com, checking out a little more about us, the merch site, supporting the show.

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We do appreciate it. This episode is brought to you by Jacob's Supply. That's why he's right here in Temperance, Michigan.

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Quality building products at wholesale prices. He's a brother in the Lord. He's also Reformed in his theology, so you know it's a great business.

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Cool. Now that we got the business out of the way, speaking of Fight, Laugh, Feast, I think this is where we met our next guest.

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We have an author, a blogger, pastor of Christ Church in Moscow, Idaho, Mr.

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Doug Wilson. Pastor Doug Wilson on the show. How are you, Doug? Great. Thanks for having me.

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Yeah, and thank you for being here. We appreciate you being generous with your time. So what we want to talk about today, and we're going to get right into it.

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Sometimes we do news segments. Sometimes we play around a little bit. But I want you to give maybe just a one - or two -minute bio of who you are for the new listeners.

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I know you've been on the show in the past. It was about a year and a half ago now. But for the new listeners, just tell them a little bit about yourself, and then we're going to get right into the subject matter.

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Sure thing. I'm the pastor of Christ Church in Moscow, Idaho. Moscow is up in the panhandle of Idaho in the beautiful part.

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And I've been here since 1975 when

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I got out of the Navy. I was in the submarine service and got out in 1975, and I've been here ever since.

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Awesome. So here's what we want to talk about. So you're an author. You do a lot of things out there at your church that are very creative.

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There's podcasters. There's artists. There's authors. All these things. And I kind of wanted to hone in on how we should treat the arts as believers.

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For those listening, now, I grew up in a very legalistic home, and then about 14 went to a very

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Pentecostal Toronto movement home. So I've seen both sides of it.

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I was taught that, you know, there was a lot of Christian contemporary music out there that was straight from Satan.

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Certain drum beats are bad. Stay away from electric guitar. And boy, you better not read any nonfiction.

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We only read the Bible, right? Now, I'm a musician. I'm a writer. Not as good as you.

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Not an experienced writer. But I like to write and do those things, creative things. So the very first thing

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I want to say is, how do we interact with the arts? How do we interact with music and with writing and with painting and movies and film?

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How do believers interact with things that could be viewed as secular or maybe outside of the

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Bible, but we could use for the glory of God? Okay, so I would start with, there are two elements here.

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One is creation, the realm of creation. The other is the realm of redemption. Okay? In the realm of creation, there's nothing outside theology.

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There's nothing outside God's purview, because Christ is Lord of all of it.

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So in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. He spoke and there was light.

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God is the first artist. God is the first poet.

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God is the first singer. So basically, all the arts that we can sort of develop out of the way the world's created were embedded in the world by God.

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Music was God's idea. Color was God's idea. Culinary taste was

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God's idea. In the realm of creation, we have to recognize that nothing human is outside the authority of scripture.

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Nothing human, truly human, is outside the realm of sound biblical theology.

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So that's the foundation for the Christian artist. But the realm of redemption is also important to emphasize because this is an area where the fundamentalists have an appropriate instinct that they take too far.

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Okay? Okay. And that is the fact that every artist is a sinner. Right?

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And the world of art, the world of art, is a world populated by sinners.

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Most of them, I'm believing, have been sinners. So when John tells us to love not the world or the things in the world, the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, a bunch of the arts are going to be bundled up with that.

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When the devil tempted the Lord Jesus and he showed him the kingdoms of this world, it says he showed the kingdoms of this world and their glory, their artistic achievements, their brilliance.

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So fallen man can do awful things with glorious things.

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So we have to beware of the cancerous rot of worldliness on the one hand, but we also have to avoid the cancerous rot of gnosticism that wants to reject the material world as somehow beneath God.

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Right. Well, no. God made color and taste and rhyme and music and, you know, all of that.

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It's God's idea. Yeah, so that's the broader view.

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So if we zoom in a little bit and we say, OK, let's get into some practical applications of that. Let's say, for instance,

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I'll take I'll take one of your books, for example, Ride Sally Ride, dealing with some very sensitive issues.

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I would even say some Christians would say outlandish or wouldn't even want to read it. Other Christians embrace it and go, oh, no, we're the point of this book and what we're talking about needs to be talked about.

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Where is that line when we talk about a sex doll, for instance, or we talk about, you know, drunkenness or we talk about any type of sin in either of like a fiction book such that you wrote?

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Where is that line? Are we allowed to have the character saying a cuss word to show that there's anger there or is there is there boundaries when creating art in general?

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In this example, it's writing, but it could go for anything. Sure, in in every artistic endeavor that a

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Christian engages in, there are definite boundaries. We have to have boundaries. We're Christians, we're disciples.

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We are under authority everywhere we go. OK, the thing that we have to realize, however, is the boundary is set by scripture and not by your

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Victorian great grandmother. OK, all right. What what does the

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Bible say? So I had a long discussion with someone one time about a fictional piece that I wrote about a man in the process of conversion.

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He was under conviction of sin. He was a long story, but he was out hiking up a stream and he slipped and fell and swore.

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He said Jesus Christ when he when he fell and then picked himself up.

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By the end of the story, he finally submitted and his submission was him saying, Lord Jesus Christ.

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OK, so a reader complained, a reader complained that that first instance where he was swearing, he was taking the

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Lord's name in vain. They were saying that because I had as the author had put that in his mouth, that I was taking the

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Lord's name in vain. OK. Right now. But that's like saying if I write a story in which a character steals something that I'm a thief or if a character gets drunk, then

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I'm a drunk. Well, no, there may be sin involved, but it's not the same sin.

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Right. OK, so and I pointed out,

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I pointed out in our exchange that when Jesus told the parable of the Pharisee and the publican, the

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Pharisee went down to the temple to pray and the Pharisee said, I thank the

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God that I'm not like other men. Now, according to the Westminster larger catechism on the

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Third Commandment, on taking the Lord's name in vain, that was a fictional character in a parable

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Jesus told invoking the name of God when he was just. He was he was taking the name of the

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Lord, the Lord in vain. And Jesus told that story.

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I thank the God that I'm not like other men. Now, here's the this this is the key.

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It's not the presence or absence of the sin that condemns or lifts up a story.

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Every author and the same would go for painting. The same would go for a playwright or screenwriter. Same principle.

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Every author, every novelist knows that the difference between an antagonist and a protagonist.

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Sure. OK, so the protagonist is the one you identify with. And if you identify with him and identify with his sins such that you're led into sin, then the author is sinning.

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OK. Right. This is what the pornographer does. The pornographer is getting you to identify with your character who is lustful and you're lustful and the.

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Authors enticing you. But if you if you have a story that is a sexual scene in it, that absolutely repels the reader.

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It's done well. Sure. And it's done in such a way that nobody, nobody wants to be like that.

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Yeah. Right. Yeah. Then you're not you're not guilty of enticing or seducing anybody.

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So go back to the parable where nobody reads the parable of the rich of the

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Pharisee praying in the temple and and comes away saying, boy, I want to be that guy.

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Right. Right. Jesus. Jesus is a master storyteller.

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And you identify with the public and you're supposed to be a sinner and you don't identify with the self -righteous prig with the name of God.

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Yeah. So very much so. It is where, like you said, where you're leading the reader in this case in in authorship.

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It's not the specific subjects that are necessarily biblical or unbiblical or sinful or not sinful.

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In an example comes to mind, when I first got married and I was young in my faith, my wife and I ran through about 10 or 11 fiction books.

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I can't remember the author, but it was a praise or shadow prey, bird of prey. Right. And it was about this this wild cop and he does his own thing and he's a womanizer and he's a drunk.

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And but he's the guy that you identify with. And you go, wow, this guy, I like I want to see this guy win.

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I want to see him solve the case and I want to see. But he's this wretched sinner. And we got about 10 books in and I go,

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I don't know if this is you know, and I'm young in my faith and we're just married. I go, I don't. And we would read a book and then

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I would hand her the book and I'd start the next one. And just every bed, every night. And you're just engrossed. It was great writing. I don't know if this is glorifying to God.

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Right. It's I mean, it was doing exactly what you just said. He was leading me, the reader, to to side with or to root for the depraved sinner.

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No matter what little redeeming qualities he had at the end, you know, he solves the case. You know, he helps the lady get her, you know, whatever, find find the killer.

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And so that's the point you're making there in writing. Correct. Am I tracking with that? Right. Correct.

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Tracking completely. Art shapes your loyalties. OK. OK.

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So when you're when you're reading a poem, when you are reading a novel, when you're looking at a great painting, what's happening is your loyalties and your affections are being shaped and directed.

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Now, that doesn't mean that every artist has to be a born again Christian, because there are non -Christians who, by common grace, can help shape your loyalties in the right direction.

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Absolutely. OK, but but pornographers don't do that.

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People who write cynical, heartbitten, nasty. I tried to get humanity.

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Right. They don't do that. So everything is this is this helping me in my walk with God?

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Am I more like Jesus Christ as a result of having engaged with this material? And if you can't say, well, it's got sin in it, it says a book without a wicked character is a wicked book.

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Hmm. That's good. So let me shift gears and talk about another section of art. What about music? What if you have a piece of music?

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One is a classical Mozart movement and the one is, you know, no lyrics, let's say just for argument's sake.

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And one is, you know, speed metal or a Metallica or a, you know, or jazz or, you know, what do we do there?

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Is there is the artist who created that music? Can they lead the listener into a certain place based on the chords and the tone and the beat and the tempo and the timing signature?

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Or is that something we can embrace at all and sort it out for ourselves? Yeah, I would

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I want to argue that instrumental music by itself is not spiritually neutral.

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Okay. Music is not neutral. I believe that instrumental music can conform to the way

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God made the world or be in rebellion against the way God made the world. Okay.

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And music is in rebellion against the way God made the world is music that is discordant and just angry, rebellious, etc.

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So there's a, but there's a difference between music that is discordant and rebellious and music that I don't like because I'm not used to.

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Right. Okay. So if somebody is, if somebody is musically uneducated, and they've never heard a song that had more than three chords in it, and someone introduces them to a classical jazz piece, they might not like it, they might, it might just sound like a bunch of noise to them.

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But that's like an acquired, there's a difference between eating a bowl of gravel, which is bad.

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Yeah. And drinking, drinking a bowl, drinking an oatmeal stout, that would be an acquired taste.

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Sure. Yeah. Okay. So, so the things that are immediately held entry level immediately pleasant.

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Sure. Like, like hard candy. There are things that you have to train your palate to appreciate.

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And then there are things that you should never train your palate to appreciate. Sure. So, so I would,

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I want to argue that the scales, the, the musical intervals, tonal music is how

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God music to be played a tonal music or john cages cacophonous music is or random is rebellion death metal,

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I think is just rebellion. That's not the case. It's kind of in the title.

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Yeah. So, so basically, it goes back to Mark Twain's old joke about Wagner's music he said you have to understand that Wagner's music is much better than it sounds.

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Right. That's great. Oh, I'm sorry.

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So, so, so I've always struggled with that I'm a musician I play piano I play drums. I absolutely love a syncopated beat and when it feels like a jazz musician between the drummer and the baseline in the, in the piano is keeping me on the edge of my seat because he's running a 778 time signature, and it just feels, it doesn't feel natural doesn't feel.

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I mean it's harmonious in a sense because I know that's coming and when you finally get that beat or you get that syncopated beat.

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It's a relief, but I've had people tell me oh absolutely not if it's not harmonious and if it's not in a time signature that is, you know, harmonious and God's created order boy that can get you into some places now

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I would agree with you, a death metal song something like that I have no place for that in my life and I don't feel that's glorifying but I can sit back and listen to jazz and appreciate that and most people would go.

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Yeah, not only is it not a taste. I don't like it but someone even argue. Well, it's not harmonious, it's not in a three four or four four signature and I go, boy,

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I got addicted to Keith Green when I was young and he was, he was a Billy Joel slappy he was all on syncopated and off kilter and weird time signatures so so you know what

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I mean I struggle with that and go, where's that line at, and it sounds like you're saying there's a line where there's discord or not harmonious but do we have an actual line in the sand, or is it, is there a little bit of a gray sliver there.

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I don't think it's gray. I think it's an area where it might be great for me because I'm, if I'm not musically educated enough.

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I might not be in a position to evaluate something, but just to say that God prohibits even dissonance or, or bending and or distortion, or anything like that is like telling a painter that he can't use black paint.

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Well, black is this color of the devil. Come on. If you just had nothing but black gloom gray.

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If there's something wrong with your worldview. Yeah, but if, if you said,

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I could improve the Lord of the Rings is a story by taking Sauron out and Saruman out and taking

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Gollum out and taking the Nazgul out and having hobbits stand around in a meadow.

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I need a discordant element I need to have, I have, I have to have notes that crunch.

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Sometimes it collide with each other sometimes I have to have this, the rhythms, put me off balance, sometimes, so that I can enjoy the pleasure of regaining my balance.

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Yeah. So, but it but if you have music that just keeps you off balance, all the time.

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Right. Yeah, I would say that's that's rebellion. But if you have something that veers off and comes back.

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There is, there's real pleasure in the resolution of a discordant chord like that.

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Sure. And I would argue there's even harmony in that coming off going back and if you look at it there's a pattern within jazz that allows you to every x beat get back to that which in itself is harmonious which in itself

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I think reflects Christ and God. Okay, so let's as we were on the cell let me give you the last question here let's say we've got a young artist out there young painter young writer.

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They've read your books, they've looked to the stuff you guys are doing in your church, what would you tell an aspiring writer or artist or musician.

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What, you know, how do we glorify God in that what's your kind of paragraph to them to say, either beware of this or try to do that.

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Okay, my, my expectation to the young struggling artists, whether he be a poet or a painter sculptor, or, you know, whatever, is do not pursue your art for the sake of impressing other artists.

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That's good. Okay, you, you are, you want to be approved by God in the first instance, and you want to love non artists in the second instance.

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Okay. We've got, we've gotten to the point where poets for example, just write for other poets.

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It used to be that the poet laureate of England, for example, was someone that everyone on the street knew who was right.

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Yeah, they would say, Oh yeah, it's Tennyson, and we've got a volume of his poems at home.

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Tennyson the poet laureate of England wrote poetry for Englishman Longfellow wrote for speaking people right today.

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Nobody knows who the poet laureate is. Moreover, nobody cares. And, and, and poets right for poetry journals that have a subscription list of 17 other poets and libraries.

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Sure. So basically, and this is going to sound kind of crass, but I'll just put it out there.

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I believe that artists should never forget that they're in show business. Oh yeah.

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Okay. You love regular. And you're not to put on airs you're not to be a snob, you're to serve them in love.

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So you're what you want to do is give voice to expressions and feelings and thoughts that they've had, and are not able to articulate because they're not artistic.

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And you articulate it for them. Yeah, and, and they see that. That's it.

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Or they hear that poem and say that's it. Instead of the regular average person saying what the heck was that.

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That's good. All right, so we've covered a lot and a little bit of time here I think we're going to wrap this part up Doug will you stick around and play fresh 10 with us so we can get to know you a little bit more.

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Sure thing. Let's do it. Here we go. All right,

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Doug never thought he's going to be on a podcast where you'd have to sit through that song but here we go fresh 10 with Douglas Wilson question number one, since you're an author, who is your favorite author, and you can't say

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God. Okay, I won't say God. I'll say far away easily

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CS Lewis. Love it. I had a feeling. Question number two. What's the most difficult thing about being a pastor.

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I'm sorry, let me repeat it because what's the most difficult thing about being a pastor was a real world difficulty that someone might not think about the real world difficulty.

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Probably the worst thing about being a pastor is having people who have a bad.

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That's almost entirely of their own doing that they can't see. And it's probably comes out most evidently in marriage problems like an intractable marriage problem where they, they can't see that they how they're by this behavior behavior in this behavior, or feeding the very thing.

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And their spouse is doing the same thing. And you explain to them, you can lay it out.

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This is, this is what you're doing this is what's driving this, and you see the solution, you see what they need to do, and they don't see it, that's probably the most challenging unhappy thing about being a pastor.

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Very good. Let's lighten it back up. What three vinyl albums are you taking with you on the deserted island record player, absolutely we have to play man there's going to be a magical power source there and some speakers.

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So, three vinyl records. I would say, box,

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Brandenburg concertos. Good handles

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Messiah. Okay. And Eric Clapton's me and Mr.

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Johnson. I love it. You're the second one to say the Eric Clapton album, very popular.

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All right, question number four. What properties, do you try to buy when you're playing Monopoly. Are you a boardwalk guy or do you go for the cheap stuff.

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I go for park place and I knew it. That way when they hit with hotels the games over and you walk away.

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I love it. All right, question number five. What movie Can you watch over and over again and not get tired of it, what's something that you might just go to.

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If you do watch movies. Yeah, I'm not a big movie guy. But I would say,

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Pride and Prejudice, the Colin Firth one. Yeah, that's good. All right, we're getting in our time machine we're getting in the

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DeLorean. Fired up the flux capacitor would you rather go back in time and visit your ancestors, or go forward in the future and visit your great great grandchildren.

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I would rather visit my great great grandchildren. I knew you would say that the post mills coming out.

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Yeah. All right, question number seven moving right along if you could sit down with a cup of coffee with any historical figure, who's it going to be a cup of coffee with any historical figure.

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And you only get as much time as to finish the coffee. Oh man, I would say, and are you excluding Bible characters.

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No, anyone you want any historical figure possible. Yeah, that'd be a good one.

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I think it would take a couple cups of coffee with him. All right, question number eight at what time of the day are you most creative between six and 8am.

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There you go morning. All right. Question number nine. What is one thing that people would assume about you, that is absolutely not true.

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I think I've run into the actually I know the answer to this one.

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Run into it. There's no wrong answer run into it a number of times. And that is because some of my writing, some of the security writing belongs to the slash and burn school.

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When I meet people in person. They are sometimes surprised that I can be pleasant.

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Yeah, they just think you're mean and rude and they go wow he's actually a nice guy when you get to know him. All right, last question.

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What is one book outside of the Bible that every person should at least pick up, take a look at and flip through or read a pilgrim's progress.

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Oh, so good. That is a good answer. All right, that was fresh 10 with Doug Wilson. All right,

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Doug, as we wrap up here, we'll make sure we link this all up. Do you have any social media or any websites or anything you're working on you want to throw out there for the listeners they can check out.

29:53

Probably the best thing is Doug wills .com my blog. Pretty much everything I do is linked there somehow.

30:01

Awesome. Guys, thank you so much for listening. Pastor Wilson, thank you so much for being so generous with your time coming on the show and talking to us.

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About these very important subjects. Thank you. Awesome. Guys, thanks so much for listening.

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We appreciate you supporting the show and giving us constructive criticism and feedback. We'll continue to try to bring you episodes like these where we talk about fun important stuff and try to bring glory to God.

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As always, God bless. Be sure to follow us on Facebook and Instagram at dead men walking podcast for full video podcast episodes and clips or email us at dead men walking podcast at gmail .com.