July 19, 2018 Show with Phil Sessa on “The New York Invasion Conference” AND Caleb Bunch on “The Engines that Propel Evangelism”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one

man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we

converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another

wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear

from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host.

Chris Arnz.

Good afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth

who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnz and your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio wishing you all a happy Thursday on this

19th day of July 2018 and I'm delighted to have back on the

program someone who has only been a guest in a more brief fashion when

I was doing live on -site interviews conducted at my exhibitors booth at the G3

conference in Atlanta, Georgia.

I believe it was two years ago that I interviewed Phil Cessa.

Today we are going to give him a full hour interview live on the air and I hope that

you enjoy it immensely.

Phil Cessa is not only a dear brother in Christ but he

is the director of Soul Fishing Ministries, which is a gospel -centered ministry that

exists to equip God's people to be fishers of men and we're going to be talking about

an upcoming event that Phil is instrumentally involved in orchestrating and it's

my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens.

Iron Radio, Phil Cessa.

Amen, thank you Chris for having me.

It was a blessing to meet you at G3 and to see you recently

at the apologetics seminar at Tony Costa.

Yeah, that was great to see you.

There too.

I really appreciate my friends coming out to something that was

very important to me and I really am delighted that you made the extra effort to be there

for a very important event.

That was my first New York City event that I orchestrated.

I've represented Iron Sharpens Iron Radio at New York City events before

but this is the first one that I actually orchestrated along with my friends

at the New Covenant Church New York City who were co -sponsors of that event and

if you don't know them already, Pastor Andy Ward and his treasurer

over there, Gary Rosenblatt, I hope that you get to know them soon because they're a great couple of guys and I think they're doing an important

work there with their church plant in Manhattan.

Amen.

Well and also I want to let our listeners know that Caleb Bunch is going to be our

second guest today in the second hour between 5 and 6 p .m eastern

time and Caleb Bunch, it has been a joy getting to know Caleb and I

actually was instrumental in securing the building where Caleb planted

his church in Massapequa because I happened to be a very long time friend of Pastor Jim Capo of the Massapequa Church of God

and I knew that they would need the injection of life and

vitality that Caleb would be introducing

into the congregation there by using their facilities and

Caleb, I've really enjoyed getting to know him and we'll be talking about more

of what he is doing for the gospel of Jesus Christ and he is also a

pastor of Redeeming Grace Fellowship in Massapequa,

Long Island, New York and our topic for the second hour is going to be the engines that propel

evangelism so make sure you stay tuned for the second hour as well.

Well Phil, even though you have been a guest on the program before,

it was a brief interview as you may remember and what I like to do with first -time guests and

I'll put you in this category even though technically you're not a first -time guest but since this is your first time

doing a full one -hour interview with us during a live program, what I typically do with first -time

guests is I have them give a summary of their salvation testimony and if you could

do that right after you give our listeners more information about.

Soul Fishing Ministries.

Sure.

It's a ministry that we began in 2008 and

we began with the vision of simply training people in evangelism and going

out to do evangelism outreaches, but since then up to

2018 our vision and mission has expanded.

We are still a gospel center ministry and we exist to equip God's people to both be

followers of Christ by

using an acronym.

Our acronym Fishing falls into two categories.

Basically the first category is dealing with equipping the people of God in the

church and the second category deals with reaching out to lost

people.

So the acronym goes as such.

The F for Fishing is our evangelism equipping and outreaches.

We're training people in hermeneutics.

The S is for God's design for the family because we know that is

seems to be very large

seminar.

Many want to redefine the family.

Well, no redefinition is needed when you have the

right.

It's not broken.

Harolding is the H in net

and in the open air.

The I is for interceding, the second I.

Many people we find in churches sort of, but

we don't hear

a lot of them

talking to God.

There's a half an hour spent for prayer requests.

Now,

obviously,

Jesus

Christ

turning

men

into

fishers

of men.

Is a very well -known picture and allegory that Christians are connected to and of

course the symbol, the ichthys, is a symbol of a fish.

Many people have that connection, but is there something more than just that connection as

to why you chose that theme of Soul Fishing Ministries?

Do you actually ever involve actual fishing for the sea creatures or do you.

In any other way connect it with actual fishing?

We take people out.

We take people out into the fishing holes, mostly around the New York area,

and we go and we

share the gospel.

In sharing the gospel, even though

many of

these churches are not really churches, I would venture to say

many of them are really synagogues of Satan.

They're not preaching and teaching the truth of the gospel.

And so even though there's tons of people in New York that profess to be Christians, they are that

in name.

Going out to the highways and the byways and compelling them to come in, I mean,

New York City, New York, and

Staten Island, I mean, it is a...

Probably the most religiously and ethnically diverse place on the planet Earth.

But again, I guess you're still using that allegorically.

You don't actually take people to fishing holes,.

Literally.

You're just...

Well, once in a while.

I took somebody out fishing yesterday.

Well, just out of curiosity, one more time, not to belabor the whole fishing symbolism, but was fishing

ever a part of your life?

I'm talking about real fishing with real fish that flap around when you bring them up on a boat or a door.

Sure.

My dad took me

fishing when I was a kid,

and it was like a thrill.

Man, they could

fight.

But there was just some kind of, like, you just really got

energized.

Trying everything to run away from you, you're pulling in and it's running away.

So yeah, it's great.

I mean,.

I really enjoy fishing physically as well.

Well, now it's time for you to give a summary of your personal testimony.

I want to hear something about the religious atmosphere that you were raised in as a child, if any,

and what providential circumstances our sovereign Lord brought about in your life that drew you to himself

and saved you.

Absolutely.

In an

environment, I have a very difficult time being on the

other side, you know, knowing the Lord now.

But I did grow up going to CCD, I guess,

the Catholic training you

concerning what they tell you to believe.

I did that.

They had communion and confirmation and basically jumped through a lot of the,

which they would call soul idea,

really what I was doing.

I was just kind of towing the

party line, to use the

expression.

Between Sundays, it was kind of like drive -by religion.

My father liked to

get to mass.

When the priest moved on, we would zip

out and beat the traffic out of the parking lot.

I think that tells you a little bit about we were religious.

My dad was, he was consistent.

I mean, we went every Sunday.

My mother didn't come Sunday.

It

radically happened in my life.

My father began to go actually to a Pentecostal Assembly of God church,

and he invited my family to go.

And my parents at that time were basically had the mindset, well, if you're born Catholic,

you're supposed to be Catholic,

you're supposed to go.

I heard Jesus never

would have died on the

cross for your sin.

Now that ripped through my mind like a bowl of china closet.

I mean, I never considered anything of that fact.

I never thought about the gospel.

Obviously, I never knew the gospel.

I never understood the gospel, but this hit me like a ton of

bricks.

It tore through my heart.

They did do

the magic words in the magic part of the room, but I know that God saved me at

that point, and I never would

have been

parroting.

No one,

no one really discipled

me at that time.

Nobody really in the church told me to read my Bible or any such thing.

I guess kind of was hungry and cried at

some point,

and then I got one.

I asked my mother for a Bible, and I began to read, and I

began to devote.

If I can actually take a two -step back, when I was also 13, a priest

asked me, what are you going to do now that you're going to become an adult?

And he said, and I'm leaving it.

And he said, well, why?

And I said, because I've been born

again.

You never told me about having a relationship with God.

I only had a religion, but now I have a relationship with God, and that's what I need.

I needed a relationship with God.

I only knew about Him, but now I know Him, and I want to keep knowing Him, and

you don't talk about Him.

That

wasn't the kind of response.

So I followed the advice of my mother, and then

we left.

We had the party, and the money came rolling in from family and

friends.

But I was new in the Lord.

Well, as a 13 -year -old kid, you did a lot more than a lot of people who leave the

Catholic Church do.

Unfortunately, I think that it's probably rare that someone who is a

born -again believer who departs from Catholicism and enters into a truly biblically

faithful church, and also, of course, more importantly, a biblical understanding

of Christ and His gospel, I'm sure that it's rare that they would actually say

anything to their former priest about it.

I know that I, in my mid -20s, when I got saved, I actually invited one of my

favorite priests to my baptism.

He did not come, but I wrote him a letter.

He actually was a high school classmate of my oldest brother, and I always liked him.

He was a great guy as far as being a friendly and gracious

individual, and was very humble as well.

But he declined my invitation, but he just said, I hope one day that you will find

what you were looking for in the Catholic Church, and that you return, which makes

sense.

I think I respect that response a lot more than if he had just said, well, it doesn't

really matter where you go to church, as long as you're happy or something, which I'm sure a lot of Catholic

clergy would do today.

But it was something that it was important for me to do, to try to evangelize

him as best as I could as a new believer.

And now I know that you are a member of a church that is pastored by my

old friend Pete Nicotra.

Pete used to be an elder at the North Shore

Baptist Church in Bayside, Queens, where my friend Ed Moore is the pastor.

And then, as North Shore Baptist Church does, it planted a

church.

And tell us about this church.

Where you are now a member.

Grace Baptist Church is located in Woodhaven, Queens, and

it goes back again from my salvation experience, because it actually all ties

in.

The teenager that I became from when I started reading the Bible, I began to bring it to school.

People began to ask why I had it and what's in it.

I began to tell them.

So I began to just naturally evangelize.

I didn't know I was supposed to be afraid or scared or don't talk about religion and politics at the table.

I didn't know any of those rules.

So I just began to naturally flow out.

I started up a Bible club.

They kicked it out of my school.

I got a lawyer.

It got back in.

I go to Bible college.

I'm still in the Assemblies of God.

So I moved from Maypeck, New York, into the Bronx,

because I wasn't originally lived there, and moved

upstate.

So everyone tells me I did it back.

I moved out of the city upstate.

I did a reverse.

I moved from upstate.

I began to pastor in several Assemblies of God churches, both as a senior pastor and an assistant

pastor.

Kind of about four years ago, I

finally was like, this is enough.

I need to leave the Assemblies of God.

My heart was gnarly inside with so many doctrinal differences that I had, because I was

studying and listening to Reformed guys and studying Reformed theology, and I was teaching Reformed things

in my discipleship group with some men that would meet at my home.

So I called up a guy that I discipled who now goes to North Shore as

well.

I said, I'm thinking about checking out your church.

He said, you need to.

He said, you too.

I just shared.

I went and we visited the church.

We visited North Shore.

We visited Grace Baptist.

We did that for about six months, my wife and I.

Then the Lord just had a heart

that I wanted to serve at this church.

It's very multi -ethnic.

There's tons of different ethnicities there, which I absolutely love.

I just wanted to come alongside Pastor Peter and just serve with him.

I just wanted to help in the church.

They did not have a lot of leadership there, and so I knew that that was a big area that he

needed help in.

I truly wanted to hold up his arm

like Moses.

His arms were held up.

How can I help you?

I've done some things.

I've preached.

He began to pray, and I guess he

let out some

more, and we began to become close together.

And so it was such a blessing because he was very accessible.

He would call me back.

I would email him.

He would email me back, text him, and get back to me.

So we were in constant communication, and I really needed that and loved that because I wanted to

learn, if you will, the Reformed way.

It's different than in the assemblies of

the Reformed church.

The Word of God is what Scripture is,

and be with

men.

It was like

I was crawling through the desert, so to speak,

and so refreshing, so nourishing since.

And so we've been there for several years now, and I've been able to serve

in different capacities in the church.

Pastor Peter and Pastor Steve

appointed me to be an elder in the church, first an elder in training, and

then an elder.

Pastor Steve

who.

Okay, because I know that Steve Schultz.

Is one of the elders at my second guest's church, Pastor Caleb Bunch, who you know.

Well, I want to make sure that our listeners have this information.

I will be repeating it, but if you want to find out more about

Grace Baptist Church of Woodhaven, New York, go to gbcny .org.

We're going to be going to our first break

of the day, and if you want to send in a question for Phil Sessa

about Soul Fishing Ministries and also about an event that he is going to be having, our email address is

chrisarnsen at gmail .com, c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA,

and please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Don't go away, God willing, we're going to be right back after these messages with more of Phil Sessa and Soul

Fishing Ministries.

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Welcome back, this is Chris Arnzen, and don't forget, please don't forget to pray for Mike Gadosh, the founder

of Solid Ground Christian Books, as he is going to be getting a very serious

and complicated open -heart surgery.

And as I have been praying and asking you to pray the last several days, this

is such a complicated surgery that his own physician, who

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very soon about the surgery.

And we are back now with Phil Cessa.

Phil Cessa, who is the founder and director of Soul Fishing Ministries.

And Phil, I know that you are having a special event that you want to.

Talk about today.

Yes, we're going to be hosting our first

conference ever in New York City on

August 25th, which is a Saturday, and it's going to be at Grace Baptist Church where

I serve.

Our focus is going to be evangelism, which is probably something good since

that's a major thrust of our ministry.

And so we're going to have kind of a two -fold or two

-stage process.

Stage number one is going to be the preaching and the training in the church

from around nine o 'clock to around...

And then after that, we're going to go out to the streets and the highways and the byways

in the area of our local church and put into practice what we just learned

in the training of our experience.

And so as a near...

I'm a school teacher as well, and so my favorite...

You can train people and then send them and let them have opportunity to

apply what they've just learned.

Because sometimes you can hear a whole lot of stuff when I train and teach people.

When I try how to teach scripture, I always ask, lessons

or are you teaching people?

And so how do we know that people are learning unless we give them opportunity to apply things?

I don't want just somebody to have a head full of knowledge of how -tos or why -tos, but I want to see them

doing it.

We want to see them putting legs to their prayers.

When Jesus had prayed the Lord of the Harvest, after that, he said, go, I'm sending you out as sheep among wolves.

And so we want to do the training,

the praying,

and the

going,

if I

may.

It's

an

absolute

undergirds

evangelism.

And so he'll be coming

with us.

He lives up in Pacuac.

And then we're going to have Gary George.

Oh yeah, an old friend of mine going back to the 1980s.

Ah, you know Gary George.

Oh yes, and he has been a guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

And has he ever told you about his testimony about when he almost was trapped in a

burning nightclub called Gulliver's?

No, I've never heard that one.

Oh, you gotta hear Gary tell you the story about that.

He had a broken leg, and I can't remember if it was from skiing or not, but I remember he had a broken leg and he

was in a nightclub.

And the nightclub caught on fire and he barely made it out

unscathed due to the cast on his leg and so on.

But a pretty remarkable story.

But anyway, I have many fond memories of fellowship with Gary and hearing him

preach and even heard him debate at least once.

A really precious brother.

Love, Gary.

Amen.

Yeah, I got to meet him at the Ocean City Bible Conference.

A real blessing.

Pastor Ed Moore went to the highways and the byways and compelled them

to go to the conference.

And I was one of the guys that Pastor Ed was hunting down to go to the conference.

And gracefully at the conference they allowed us to be vendors for the past few years and we'll be vending there

again this year.

And I met Gary George there for the first time.

Peter Nicotra introduced me to him and Peter described his evangelism

from what I understand.

Well, he's definitely a powerful.

Preacher and I'm sure you could hear him from quite a long distance away, just like Whitfield.

Amen, amen.

So I asked Pastor Peter about someone else to come and preach at our conference.

And without hesitation he said, you got to have Gary George.

Because some guys can preach about evangelism, but then there's some guys, if you know what I mean, who can preach about

evangelism.

And normally the guys that preach about evangelism with a lot of passion and heart are the guys that actually...

And so I know Gary's out there doing it.

And so he's speaking from many, many years of experience and with a heart that still burns

and passion for Christ in reaching the lost.

And so I'm looking forward to hearing him preach at our conference,

New York City Invasion.

Yes, well, I can still remember Gary in his very thick

Massachusetts accent asking me, brother, brother, did you have a potty when you were

young?

Did you potty?

And I was like, is he asking me if I was potty trained?

What is he saying?

But he's a great guy.

And so tell us about this invasion of New York that you just mentioned.

Yeah, so being in the Assemblies of God in the past,

I know that they're very missions -oriented.

They send out a lot of missionaries, and they do a lot of stuff in that regard around the world,

not of a lot of evangelistic things that I see.

And I wish they went with a message that was a little more potent

and certainly more biblical, I guess I would have to just say.

And of course, we have to make sure that we don't broad brush our Assembly of God, brethren, because

you do find some gems amongst them.

And did you know Al Stein?

Uh, no.

Al Stein, pretty sure that Ed Moore knows who Al Stein was.

Al Stein went home to be with the Lord after a tragic automobile accident a few years ago.

But Al Stein was not only a pastor in the neighborhood Assembly of God in Belmore, Long

Island, but he was also a bishop in the Assemblies of God, an overseer for all of Long Island.

And when I first met Al Stein, he was an Arminian who was

respectful and curious about the doctrines of Sovereign Grace.

And for the last couple of years, at least two or three, that I had the

privilege of sharing fellowship with him before the Lord called him home, he was a full -blown Calvinist.

Yeah.

Go ahead, I'm sorry.

That's happening more often.

That seems to be happening more often.

I mean, listen, when I was an Arminian, and didn't really understand the

doctrine, I mean, I know I was still saved, I know God still saved me and changed me.

And so, yeah, absolutely, there are many people, both lost and saved, in Arminian and

Calvinistic circles, there are people that are lost and saved within the circles.

Oh, that's true.

So, just out of curiosity, why the word invasion that you're using for your

conference?

Yeah, so, when I was back in Bible college, I liked

this model that they used, and they used to call it city invasion.

And so, a bunch of people from various Assembly of God, Bible college, went

to the city, and just, that was the gospel.

They went to Philadelphia, I went to the one in New Orleans, I think is how

you're supposed to.

Pronounce it.

That's weird, I just was just talking about how those in New Orleans

pronounced New Orleans just about an hour ago with a friend of mine.

Oh, see that?

Coming back.

Like pepperoni.

So, I

kind of, you know, kind of like you just said, you know, and I wasn't trying to kind of paint with a broad brush,

there are things, even though I disagree theologically, there were certain principles

and models that I learned that are good models, per se.

I would just, you know, I would say, okay, I like the concept, but I think that

it could be done in a better way.

More, you know, again, you know, I want to hear Reformed theology being preached, and

maybe better structure, and things like that, but I like the concepts that I learned.

So, over there, it was called invasion, and so the focus was, hey, we're going to come in, and we're going to, like,

invade this place with the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

And so, I mean, Satan is running around to and fro, and sometimes I think that the

Church is very timid when it comes to evangelism.

All of the, hey, God loves you, and has a wonderful plan for

your

life, and kind of, and so, yes, do we need to make friends with people

to share the gospel?

Absolutely.

But I mean, it should be bubbling over our hearts, like lava just flowing out,

not uncontrollably, of course, but, you know, a controlled fire.

And so, I believe that God wants to take His Church, and bring

and flood the gospel throughout the cities.

Right, and...

And there are Satan's agents in the world, it seems.

Yeah.

It sounds like what you were describing before about the tepid

approach to evangelism, it's as if the gospel has been castrated,

for lack of a better term, because you have people

who diminish, not intentionally, of course, but they diminish the power

and the amazement, they

diminish the phenomenon that the gospel is, by just

talking about good things that may occur,

but when you don't talk about the fact that it, the gospel rescues

sinners from not only their own sin, but the condemnation,

the eternal condemnation of that sin in hell, when you remove that,

it's like you're saying that something is nice, when you could be

amazing, and awesome, and powerful, and mind -blowing.

Right, right.

Because if people don't know what they're saved from, then being saved is no big deal.

I believe it was Michael Horton that titled a book he wrote years ago, called Putting Amazing Back

Into Grace, because the gospel that many people preach today is not

really amazing at all.

No, it's not at all.

It's not at all.

When people would say, I'm saved, he would ask them, saved from what?

And I mean, that's a fantastic question.

It's a great probing, heart -probing question to ask people, and yeah,

I completely agree.

It's like, you go from, okay, so your life is good, but it can be better with Jesus, and so, as

Paul Washer said, you know, we're comparing Jesus to, like, six flags.

I mean, you know, it's like, you're at Kiddie Land Park, and you can go to six flags and get on the bigger

roller coasters.

Well, that's not the gospel.

I mean, that is not the gospel at all.

I forgot who said it, but they said Jesus didn't come to make bad people into good people, he came to make dead people

live.

Amen.

And so, I mean, listen, if I had the cure to cancer, and I

was walking by St. Jude's Children's Hospital, and I looked in the window, and I saw all these kids with their hair

out, I saw sickly -looking kids.

I know they don't all per se look sickly, some of them are smiling and happy, but I mean,

can you imagine?

You walk through the hallways, you look in the rooms, and you're seeing kids dying, and you have the cure to

cancer, like, right in your pocket.

You have vials of medication.

How can you walk by and walk through the hallways of St. Jude's Children's

Hospital and not, like, scream at the top of your lungs and not want every kid to have the cure?

And that's what I think it's like sometimes.

I think, like, we say we believe the gospel, but then where is that

heart to want to bring the gospel and invade our cities

and our towns and our suburban communities with the only thing

that's saved, which is the gospel?

The gospel must be the thing that drives us, and it must be the only

thing that we're giving out.

Just a word of advice, though, I got ushered out of St. Jude's Hospital for screaming at the top of my lungs, so you have to

be very careful.

Okay!

I want you to make sure our listeners know exactly who, other than Gary George,

perhaps it's only Gary George, who are the speakers at this conference, and do you have any topics.

Lined up and everything that they need to know?

Yes, so, I'm

a coach of the law,

myself, Phil Sessa, another elder at the church and director of Soul Fishing

Ministries.

I'll be preaching on zeal for the law and how to reach the law.

Gary George is going to be preaching on the power of the gospel in

reaching the law.

Evans Olong, the brother from Kenya, although he lives here, is going to be preaching on prayer

and reaching the law.

And then, yeah, so that's it.

We have those five, because I'm doing two sessions, and each of the other brothers are going to be

doing one session, our speakers.

And then, as part of that, we'll have a table set up for vending, be

$20 or maybe a little bit higher than that.

And so, they're really awesome looking, kind of at the city skyline, like New York, a bunch of people

looking at the skyline, and kind of like see the bat symbol coming up from, you know, from the Batman movies.

You're going to see a cross symbol that's kind of beaming into the skyline.

You're going to see a symbol of the cross kind of beaming up, and

then it'll say underneath, I will make your fishers and men.

So, on the back, it's going to look like, like a

stock,

really nice.

Great.

Well, I know that

Wrath and Grace makes some very.

Attractive t -shirts.

I've purchased a few at the G3 conference, actually.

Well, I know that your website, again, is soulfishingministries .org, soulfishingministries

.org, and of course, it's S -O -U -L, not the actual fish soul.

But anyway, tell us any other.

Contact information that they need to know.

Yeah, you can email me at fishdub, like the fish in the ocean and the dub in the sky,

fishdub1122 at gmail .com.

If you need to contact me, the number for our

ministry is 646 -773 -1221.

If you're interested in getting our newsletter, you can call or email me.

We can have that newsletter sent out to you, and we're putting out a couple of

resources as well, if you're ever interested.

We have a discipleship manual called Multiplying for the Master, a prayer journal called Abiding at the

Throne of Grace, and we have a workbook on the Book of Jonah.

So, it's a workbook, half workbook, half leadership of guides that

goes with it, and we're putting out a couple more as we come along.

One is going to probably be called Soulfishing on Evangelism, one on the deity of Christ,

and one on the attributes of God.

So, if you can be praying for us, I just want to

equip people to do the work.

Of the kingdom and to be fishers of men.

Praise God.

Well, it was great to have you back on the program, Phil, and God willing, next

time I'm in New York, we should try to get together again, and I would love to be able to have the opportunity at some point to worship

with you folks over there as well at Grace Baptist Church in Woodhaven.

I really appreciate you coming on, brother, and we'll talk to you soon.

All right, and I just want to thank you,.

Chris, for the opportunity, and I want to thank you for all the Bibles that you gave out recently,

you know, to people, to give out to people in their churches.

You're very generous, very kind, and I thank you for the work that you're doing, and we'll pray for you and for

your ministry.

Thank you for what you do and the way you do it.

Well, I really appreciate that,.

Brother, and the credit goes to not only God, of course, especially, but to the publishers of the New

American Standard Bible for providing us with those free Bibles.

And for those of you listening, if you are replacing the Bibles in your pews, if your

pew Bibles are falling apart or covered with children's graffiti, or maybe even adults' graffiti,

and you're looking to replace all those Bibles, please, please seriously and prayerfully consider going to

nasbible .com, N -A -S, which stands for New American Standard, bible .com,

nasbible .com.

But thanks, Phil, and we'll talk to you soon.

God bless you.

Thank you, Chris.

All right, God bless you, too.

And coming up after

our break, we are going to be joined by Caleb Bunch.

Caleb Bunch, who is the pastor of Redeeming Grace

Fellowship in Massapequa, Long Island, New York, and he is going to be talking

about something very important, the engines that propel evangelism.

By the way, is this Caleb on the air right now?

Hello, is this Caleb?

No, I'll hang up.

I'm sorry.

Okay.

But we will have Caleb Bunch, God willing, joining us after this break.

This is our elongated break, so please write down not only questions for Caleb Bunch

regarding his subject, the engines that propel evangelism, but also take this time to write

down the information that is provided by our advertisers, because the more you

successfully patronize our advertisers, the longer, God willing, they will remain

as advertisers, and that money is what helps keep us on the air.

But don't go away, because God willing, we'll be right back after these messages with Caleb Bunch.

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It also means that you don't have to worry about being assaulted by the pornographic, heretical, and

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Before we are joined by our second guest today, Pastor Caleb Bunch

of Redeeming Grace Fellowship in Massapequa, Long Island, New York, I just have a few very important announcements to make.

First of all, coming up very soon, the Fellowship Conference New England is returning

to Portland, Maine, August 2nd through the 4th at the Deering Center Community Church

in Portland, Maine.

And the speakers include Pastor Tim Conway, and he is pastor of

Grace Community Church of San Antonio, Texas.

Pastor Mac Tomlinson, who is an author and the pastor of Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas.

Pastor Jesse Barrington, who is the pastor of Grace Life Church in Dallas, Texas.

And Pastor Nate Pickwitz, who is also an author and the pastor of

Harvest Bible Church in Gilmington

Ironworks, New Hampshire.

If you would like to register for the Fellowship Conference New England, go to fellowshipconferencenewengland .com,

fellowshipconferencenewengland .com.

Please tell the folks there that you heard about this conference from Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

And I hope to be there myself one day, but please,

if you live near Portland, Maine especially, or even if you live far away but are able to get there,

please get there because I happen to know these four men.

They've been on my program, dear brothers in Christ, and they do

something unusual that they don't have a theme that they have picked for the

entire conference.

They have each of the men unburdening their hearts with what each of those men in particular

most wants to say and proclaim at that conference.

So it's quite a unique conference, and I strongly urge you to be there.

If you can, at fellowship conferencenewengland .com, fellowshipconferencenewengland .com.

Then we have coming up in November the 9th and the 10th at

the Grace Bible Fellowship Church of Quakertown, Pennsylvania, the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals is having their annual

Quakertown Conference on Reform Theology.

And the theme this year is the glory of the cross.

I will be there, God willing, Manning and Iron Sharpens Iron exhibitors booth.

So I hope that you greet me if you attend during one of the breaks.

The speakers at this year's Quakertown Conference on Reform Theology include David Garner, Ray Ortland,

Richard Phillips, Timothy Gibson, and Carlton Winn.

If you'd like to register for the Quakertown Conference on Reform Theology, go to alliancenet .org,

alliancenet .org, click on events, and then scroll down to the Quakertown Conference on

Reform Theology.

Please tell the folks at the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals that you heard about this conference

from Chris on Iron Sharpens Iron radio.

And then coming up in January 2019, which is a lot closer than you may think,

the way time flies by, I am so excited once again to be Manning and

exhibitors booth.

This will be my third year in a row Manning and exhibitors booth at the G3 Conference, which stands

for Gospel, Grace, and Glory.

The G3 Conference is being held once again at the Georgia International Convention Center in College

Park, Georgia, which is a suburb of Atlanta.

They are expecting between 4 ,000 and 5 ,000 people.

And the lineup, which is always awesome, and is equally as awesome this January,

includes Paul Washer, John Piper, Stephen J. Lawson, Fody Baucom,

Mark Dever, Conrad M. Bayway, the pastor of Coboata Baptist Church of Lusaka, Zambia,

Africa, my favorite preacher of all, alive today, Tim Challies, Phil Johnson, the executive

director of John MacArthur's ministry, grace to you, Josh Bice, who is the director of

the G3 Conference, Todd Friel of Wretched TV and Wretched Radio, and Stephen J.

Nichols, who is the president of Reformation Bible College in Sanford, Florida, the college founded by R .C.

Sproul and Ligonier Ministries, and many more.

And the theme of the conference this January is The Mission

of God.

And if you would like to register, go to g3conference .com, g3conference

.com.

And the conference, by the way, is being held Thursday, January 17th, through Saturday, January 19th.

And they are having a special Spanish -speaking edition of the conference on Wednesday,

January 16th.

So let all of your Spanish -speaking friends and bilingual friends know about that as well.

That's Wednesday, January 16th.

But go to g3conference .com, g3conference .com.

And also, you can not only register to be an attender, but you can also register to man an

exhibitor's booth, just like I will be doing, God willing.

And with a crowd as large as the ones that gather at the G3 Conference, it's well worth your

investment.

As I said, they are expecting between 4 ,000 and 5 ,000 people.

So what a great place to have an exhibitor's booth for your church or your parachurch

ministry or your business, whatever it is that you are going to be promoting there to

benefit the body of Christ.

Well, you can register for that booth there as well at g3conference .com, g3conference .com.

Last but not least, it's time for me to do something that I never get comfortable

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I'm now, once again, begging you for money.

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By the way, we are excited to announce that after a seven -year

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our dear friends at Buttafuoco and Associates, many of you who listened to the old program for many years on

Long Island, New York, the old Iron Sharpens Iron Radio program may remember that my key sponsor every

year was Dan Buttafuoco and Buttafuoco and Associates.

Well, now after eight years, they are returning as our sponsor.

I should say actually seven years they're returning as our sponsor on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

I am so thankful to Dan Buttafuoco and to God for Dan Buttafuoco for

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Sharpens Iron Radio and his eagerness to sponsor it.

I just got word today that he is officially now going to be a sponsor of this

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So thank you so much, Dan Buttafuoco, and we look forward to working with you

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Their ads will be starting soon.

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And if you'd like to join me on the air with a question for Caleb Bunch, pastor of Redeeming Grace Fellowship in

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Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Today we are going to be addressing the engine that propels evangelism, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome

you for the very first time ever to Iron Shepherd's Iron Radio, Pastor Caleb Bunch.

Well, thank you, Chris.

It's great to be here.

And before I have you give an abbreviation of your salvation testimony, which is what something that we

always do with first -time guests, I'd like you to tell our listeners something about Redeeming Grace Fellowship.

In Massapeak, Long Island, New York.

I'd be delighted to.

Yeah, Redeeming Grace Fellowship is a new church.

We were planted here in Massapeak about two and a half years ago.

It'll be three years, actually, in September.

We were planted out of North Shore Baptist Church in Queens, New York, in Bayside, Queens.

And we were, I think, a very biblical church plant.

A lot of churches are planted by biblical means, by church splits, but we were

actually sent out by a church who desired to be faithful with sending some of their best and

most gifted members and even some of the elders and deacons to come out

and reach an area of Long Island that is desperately in need of more of a gospel witness.

And we had many faithful members that came with us to plant this church, and by God's grace, we are

continuing on in the work of the Lord two and a half years in, and we are seeing people come to Christ and seeing people discipled

and seeing people even sometimes occasionally coming out of unhealthy church backgrounds and

growing in the Lord.

So we're excited about the ministry here, and we're thankful that God has allowed us.

To be here at this time to serve him in this way.

Amen, and I'm so delighted that providentially I have had that long -time friendship with Pastor

Jim Capo of the Massapequa Church of God, and knew that you needed a place

to set up shop, as it were, and knew that they needed a shop -knee arm

there to bring new revitalized life back into that

building.

And so those two things.

Went very well hand -in -hand, didn't they?

Amen, and I'm very thankful you were very instrumental in that connection.

And Jim and I are great friends.

You know, as a church who doesn't own any property, who rents a building, I think oftentimes that's a big struggle

for churches that rent.

You don't anticipate that your landlord is going to become a dear friend and a dear brother in Christ.

But we're really grateful that that relationship has blossomed, and our churches have served the Lord together.

We're not enemies.

We're not opposing one another.

We serve the kingdom of God together, and that has been an incredible blessing to start our.

Church off on a foot like that.

Amen.

Well, please send my deepest regards to Jim Capo.

I miss his fellowship immensely.

We were fellowshipping on an average week three days out of the

seven, at least, a week when I was living out on Long Island, so I really miss his fellowship a lot.

But please send him my regards, and also send my regards to his lovely

wife, Rosemary.

Absolutely, I will.

Well, let's now hear something about your upbringing, what

kind of religious atmosphere you were raised in, if any, and what providential circumstances the Lord used in your.

Life to draw you to himself and save you.

Wonderful.

I love talking about that.

My childhood, I grew up in southeast Kansas in a little tiny town called Chanute, and I grew

up in a church that was kind of a little bit of an atypical assembly of God.

It was strongly influenced by the holiness movement and a

lot of revivalism that touched our church background.

My parents were faithful believers, but my church background was not healthy in its

theology or in its practice.

So in terms of my personal salvation, it's difficult for me to pinpoint when I

truly came to know Christ, because I'm convinced that I came to know the Lord at a young

age, but the theology under which I was trained at that time taught me that I

would come to know Christ in the saving way if I said a certain prayer, and that I would lose that salvation if I sinned.

So I believed that I became a Christian a hundred thousand times before I was ten years old.

Obviously that's not true, but at some point, one of those occasions

where it became genuine to me, and I understood the weight of my sin and

the love of Christ, and truly went to the Lord with a repentant heart, and he gave me the of

faith and repentance and regenerated me.

So all of that, at some point in that journey, I just couldn't tell you

exactly when.

But what I can tell you is at some point in my high

school years, where I began to realize that the teaching of my home church that I grew up in

were not only a little lost, but in significant opposition to the Word of God, and

transitioned out of that, willing to allow me to travel around and

search out different churches, and try to find something that was a little bit more biblical.

And I'm convinced that at that time, there were no, and perhaps are to this day

still, no churches that are truly faithfully proclaiming the Word of God

in a way that is in alignment with the Scripture.

I'd be hesitant to say that about places in general, but I think that's an accurate statement of my hometown.

So by God's grace, over the course of time, I got involved in missions.

I served as a missionary in Brazil for a while, without getting into the long details of the story.

I was deported a couple times because of paperwork issues, and then ended up going to northern Italy

for school, and served there a little bit at a church plant and at a Christian

organization training educational place, and was really strengthened in my faith.

It's there where I came to know the doctrines of grace, and my relationship with the Lord was

just incredibly different after that.

But I understood that I needed Him, and that anything that I was going to

ever accomplish for the Kingdom was all because of Him.

It radically transformed my life and my ministry.

And by God's grace, after that, I was able to come serve in New York for a few years, for about five years, with Ed Moore in Bayside

at North Shore Baptist Church, then finished up some seminary over in Southern Kentucky, and then came up

and planted this church.

So I guess that's about five minutes.

Of my life story.

You think you could be a little bit more descriptive about how you came to the doctrines of sovereign grace?

I'd love to hear, and I always love to hear about that.

Tell us.

About that.

Absolutely.

Well, first I'll tell you that this is not a story of me being intelligent and figuring it out.

I actually heard about the doctrines of grace when I was in high school, and I became incredibly offended by

them, especially limited atonement.

I didn't understand the argument that was being made, and honestly, I think the people who informed me of the doctrines of grace,

their approach to it was kind of a cagey, cage -stage -style approach,

and it really rubbed me the wrong way, I think partially because my own personal

pride was nicked a little bit when I was thinking more of myself and less of God than I should.

But I also think the messengers were a little bit flawed at the time, and so I struck back against it and fought against it and thought, man, those

people are probably not even Christians.

You know?

And then I went to Brazil as a missionary, and it just so happens that the Lord

providentially orchestrated it so that I was serving alongside of a Brazilian pastor who also

was a Calvinist.

And as I was learning Portuguese and as I was growing and understanding what they were

teaching at the church, it became more evident to me that he was a Calvinist.

And although we didn't have a great deal of discussion, the simple conversations that we had began to

break down some of my walls in terms of the idea that God does have a people of his own,

and that from before the foundation of the earth, he had set his love and affection on them,

and I began to soften to that.

But what really broke down my resilience, what the Lord did for me was he

allowed me to get deported from Brazil, and when I did...

Oh, who hasn't been?

Oh, exactly.

I'm only kidding.

You gotta tell us why that happened.

Why did you get deported?

Well, it really comes down to a lot of political nonsense.

You know, the President Bush and President Lula of Brazil were not friendly towards one

another, and the United States had begun deporting Brazilians, quite a few of them

actually, during the time of George W. Bush, and what occurred was one of

the people who came here as some kind of a government official from Brazil

was required at an airport screening to take off his shoes, which, you

know, is a culturally faux pas thing there, you know?

And he had diplomatic immunity, so he was trying to explain to them, I have diplomatic immunity, I'm not

required to do this, and then he was detained, and they forced him to go through a different kind of

search, and it really humiliated him, which made the government of Brazil very angry, and then I

got caught in the storm of all of that political

fiasco that was occurring between our two nations, and I just, by the grace of God, got caught up in the middle of

that.

At the time, I saw that as very negative.

I thought that, you know, there was no way God had his hand in this.

In fact, I was greatly upset about it, because, like I mentioned before, I

overvalued and overestimated my efforts and thought, you know, God, what are these people going to do without me?

And I didn't say that out loud, and I don't think I would have, but truly, that was the sentiment in my heart.

You know, we were doing a lot of things that were desperate and needy, that without the

programs that we had set up, they would be on the streets, and not only without the gospel, they would also be without food and

shelter and education.

And I was a big part of setting some of those systems in place, so when I was deported,

I was deeply concerned for them.

I was also very angry at God, and I don't say that lightly,

aggressively angry towards God.

And I was taught in the church I grew up in that if you are not happy with the way things are going in your life, it's

absolutely acceptable for you to just go yell at God for a while.

So to my great shame, that was the approach that I had taken towards God.

And by His grace, He allowed me to get back to Brazil.

It was only a quick turnaround, I think it was in the States for like six weeks or something before I got back.

And I served the Lord there for only like another seven months, and then got deported again.

Those seven months that I was in the

mountains, and in the evenings, I had literally nothing to do but read my Bible.

And as I was reading through the Word of God, coming up over and over and

over concerning the sovereignty of God, concerning His dominion, concerning the way that He

is the one who declared the end from the beginning, and I began realizing more and more that God doesn't need me

to be involved in this ministry.

That when I got back, everything was still functioning perfectly fine without me.

God doesn't need me.

I went deeper than that.

I began to understand more about God's relationship to us in a sovereign way, in

salvation as well.

And I can explain that only by saying that the second time I was deported, my response in my

heart towards God was not one of anger, but one of absolute submission.

You know, confusion, but also submission, saying, God, I trust you, that you are going to save the kids here that belong

to you, that you're going to protect them, that you're going to bring people in that can serve them,

that you're going to, you know, your sheep are going to hear your voice and they'll follow you.

And also for myself, I just trust you that wherever you have for me to go, that you'll lead me and I'll...

The Doctrines of Grace was something I'd never heard systematically taught, but

right after I came back from Brazil, I, to this day, don't understand how this happened, but I

think a friend of mine applied to a school as a joke for me, and I got in,

and so when I got back, I had a letter waiting for me telling me that I had been accepted to a study abroad program in Italy.

So I took it, and I went to Italy, and at this school, it was a Christian school, they taught

TULIP, and I said to myself, this is exactly what God has been teaching me.

I just didn't know the words.

I didn't understand the vocabulary yet, but this is what God has been teaching me.

And from that point forward, I dug in, one of our textbooks was A .W. Pink's The Sovereignty of God, and

just completely and drastically radically altered the entire direction of ministry in my life,

just because I began to understand God in such a better way, a fuller way.

Now, I know that you have ministered as a missionary on four

continents, and I'm sorry if I missed anything you said in

that realm other than Brazil, but where else have you ministered?

Yeah, you know, it's a funny term.

My first mission trip was to Australia in 2000 when I was just a 13 -year -old kid.

At the time I was saved, I really do think I was doing missionary work, but like I said, at that time, my understanding of

missions was very limited.

In America, I would say that what we're doing right now, for me, is more of a mission field, honestly, than

South America was, because I felt much more comfortable in the highlands of southern Brazil than I

do in the jungles of Long Island.

Yes, as a native Long Islander, I can certainly empathize

with—not that, of course, there's anything physically

rigorous or exhausting or anything like that in regard to Long Island or

uncomfortable or anything like that, but as far as an indifference to the gospel that

can be very disheartening and frustrating, and

of course, people who are very religious and.

False religions like Roman Catholicism and so on.

Right, and I would say that there's a lot of similarities here to what I've recognized in Italy.

I served there alongside of a school and helped out with a church plant in Udine for a time,

and the same spirit that is here is there.

There's just no idea that there's life beyond death.

There's nobody thinking about eternity here, and everyone, if they consider

anything about religion, they think, I'm okay.

Just like Italy, the people here, by and large, are religious people.

They just kind of set that aside the majority of their week, and then if somebody discusses it with them, they've

been baptized in the Catholic Church, so they're good, or something of that nature.

So there's an ambivalence towards the gospel that exists that's very similar in those

two cultures here in Long Island and in northern Italy.

So it's a very different battle in terms of missions, but I would consider this

a mission field here on Long Island.

Well, I also have to say that I love.

The names of your children, Asaph, Petra, Athanasius, and Mordecai.

I don't know if I know of anyone who has named their children any of those names, and I don't think I've

ever met anybody with any of those names, except I believe I met a Petra, at

least one Petra, but Athanasius is my favorite of your children's names, and do you

have a nickname for Athanasius,.

Because what would that be?

Yeah, we call him Athens.

We try to build in a nickname with all of our kids, and we give them a very generic middle name just in

case they end up hating their first name.

Athanasius, we call him Athens for short, and

people remember his name so easily.

He just fits it.

It fits him well.

It's Athanatos, which the A is a privative alpha

there, so it means the reverse of that.

What it means is the one who does not die.

So we're praying that the Lord would open his eyes to the gospel and that he would live forever.

We're hoping that he would be immortal in that sense.

We also love the early church father, Athanasius, and the way he protected the doctrine of the Trinity through the grace of

God.

Yes, and the duty of Christ.

Absolutely.

So that's where he received his name, is because of my delight in the writings

and the life of Athanasius.

Athanasius, I'm sorry, is that my.

Phone that's creating a little bit of buzz here?

Yeah.

I'm sorry.

I'm sure that if your son, Athanasius, is either ganged up on by his

siblings or by the kids in the neighborhood, you could always remind him about Athanasius against the world

and the fact that he was like one of the few standing up against the entire church

who were rejecting the deity of Christ.

And he still, rather than pointing to councils and

bishops and clergy, he was pointing to the scriptures.

Absolutely.

Well, we're going to our final break right now, and if you'd like to ask a question of Caleb Bunch, send in your email now at chrisarnson

at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

God willing, we are going to be back right after these messages from our sponsors.

And you could please also consider that

if you want to remain anonymous, if your question involves a pastoral question that is personal

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen, and our guest for the remaining half hour is Kayla Bunch,

the pastor of Redeeming Grace Fellowship in Massapequa, Long Island, New York.

We are going to be discussing the engines that propel evangelism, and Caleb, if you could,

tell us exactly what you mean by that.

It's important to consider the fact,.

You know, especially when we're talking to a Reformed audience, that it's really easy for us to unintentionally

slide into a hyper -Calvinistic lifestyle.

Even if we don't think we're hyper -Calvinist, I would say if we're not sharing the gospel, that's really how we're

acting.

We're functioning as hyper -Calvinists, acting as though God's just going to redeem his people without us.

But the mold is that God has designed his kingdom to grow through evangelism.

So one of the things that people always ask pastors and church leaders is, how do we

encourage people to be involved in evangelism?

How do we get people psyched up to do it?

How do we kind of light a fire under people?

And as I was preparing this summer for an evangelism training for our church, one of the things that I

began to see more and more is that there seems to be a lack in terms of study materials

and books and lesson structures that I've found in terms of two main categories, which I

think are the main engines that propel a lifestyle of personal evangelism.

And those two things are having a proper fear of God and having a proper love for God.

I think those two things combined result naturally in a proper mode and

zeal for evangelism.

Yes, and of course,.

Even Arminians can behave like hyper -Calvinists because they're lazy, because

although perhaps the reasons behind their lack of evangelism aren't the same

specifically as a hyper -Calvinist, but there are many people who are non -Calvinistic

who are fearful of the opinions of men.

They don't want to embarrass themselves by evangelizing.

Oh, absolutely.

They don't want to lose friends.

They don't want to look like a weirdo.

I mean, the list goes on and on and on.

They're afraid of losing their job or not getting a job that

they're desiring to get.

So there are all kinds of people that are not fulfilling their duty to evangelize.

And even more than that, they're not loving

to evangelize.

Evangelism doesn't get their blood pumping.

They don't get excited about it.

And that should be what we all experience.

And many of us, and perhaps even all of us at some point, really fail

miserably in those areas, don't we?

Absolutely.

Well, honestly, I think one of the.

Things that you find often is people have a thousand reasons why I don't do this.

Last night, I was teaching at our evangelism training at our church, and I just asked the group, what are some

reasons that you can say, reasons or excuses, whatever term you'd like to use, that you personally don't

evangelize?

And we got all sorts of answers.

I said, okay, what are the reasons that we should, or may I say, must evangelize?

And I got a few answers, and the answers really boiled down into two categories.

The category of, I should love other people enough to share the gospel with them, and the category of,

God tells us to do it, so we need to do it.

And ultimately, both of those things are true, and I actually think those things are good things to hold on to, but

I don't see those as being the primary motivation in the apostles in the New Testament.

The primary motivating factor seems to be a constant realization and awareness

of the love of God and the fear of God, and those two things propelled them

to do what it was they were doing.

And I think we can see that in not only the way that they carried it out, but also

in the way that they presented the gospel to other people.

I can give you a few examples.

Just, for example, in Matthew 28, the quintessential passage about missions and evangelism go,

therefore, into all the world.

That passage is built so that it begins with, all authority

in heaven and on earth have been given to me.

That's an authoritative, kingly statement which is designed to give us the proper fear

of God.

Whenever anybody saw God as who he may fall down, like Isaiah chapter

6 when he has the throne room experience with God, or when Peter in Luke chapter 5 sees the

miracle of the multiplication of the fish, and he falls at the feet of Jesus and says, go away from me,

I'm a sinful man.

I believe that that statement there where Jesus is saying, all authority has been given to me, that's a

statement that should result in us being like Peter or Isaiah, seeing the attributes, the

character, the authority, the kingly nature of our Savior, falling down at his feet and

responding as, I'm your servant, tell me what to do.

And the response that he gives us is, go therefore, make disciples.

That really could be translated as, as you're going, the main

verb there.

So the goal for us is to make disciples, but that's grounded in that previous verse, verse

18, about the authority of Christ, and all the 1068 verses that come before

that in the book of Matthew teaching us about the gospel itself.

So I think all of that is grounded in a love of God, but it's an awareness

of his love for us.

So if we look at love that God has for us, that's how we grow in love for him.

I could maybe say it this way, that our love for God is never going to surpass our

awareness of his love for us, if that makes sense.

That his love for us is infinite, it's unchanging.

John chapter 15, verse 9, he says that if we're in Christ, that as the Father has loved

me, or in the same way as the Father has loved me, in that same way, or so I have loved

you also, so abide in my love.

And as we become familiar with and aware of and filled with the knowledge of his love for us,

and how that looks in the cross, then it fills us with love for him.

I don't know, have you ever done a New Year's Eve resolution, Chris?

Uh, there's a difference between have I ever begun one or have I ever kept one, and

those answers would be yes and no.

Have you ever made it to February?

I guess that's my question.

I don't know that I've ever successfully made it to February with any resolution that I've done.

We're not good at self -motivating, but that's what most evangelism materials and teaching,

you know, stuff that's out there will tell you to do.

It kind of starts out by saying, the harvest is plentiful, let's look at the desperate need, and

present it in some kind of a, you know, with a metaphor of some kind, and then what they'll do is they'll say,

now you need to know the statistics, here's the numbers, go do it.

And it's kind of like the Nike approach, just do it.

But if that's your motivating factor, it's just like saying, well, I'm going to lose 30 pounds by the end of the

year.

You forget by the time you drive by McDonald's, it's over.

So you have to have a motivating factor for evangelism that's not going to fade

away, not flimsy, that's something you can hold on to and it can be real and present

in your life at all times.

Well, I think when you see that first command that we were talking about a moment ago,

being rooted in the past love of God, the grace of God, because all

authority has been given to him, all of the rest of that, we can do it.

We must do it.

But then he says there's also present grace that we are supposed to experience, and he says, and behold, I'm with you,

even to the end of the age, experienced, for example, when he was in

Corinth in Acts chapter 18, and you know, God, Christ appears to him and tells him,

don't stop, keep going, I have many people in the city.

I would ask the question, why would Jesus tell that?

And I think the answer is because he was considering stopping

and leaving the city without staying there to make disciples.

But what caused him to stay was a genuine realization of the presence of

Christ.

Now somebody might object and say, yes, but he had a vision of Christ that Christ revealed himself in a

unique way in Timothy

chapter 4, which is towards the end of his life.

He says, I believe it's in the middle of the chapter at some point, he says, you know, at my first defense, everybody,

everyone left, everyone just completely abandoned me, but Christ stood by me, but

the Lord stood by me.

And I would say, does it look like here Paul is saying he had a vision?

I don't think so, but I think what is happening is he has a realization of the exact thing Christ promised

in Matthew 28, verse 20, that I am with you always, and that

propelled him, and if you continue reading there, he says, and so the gospel was proclaimed

to all the Gentiles.

So his motivating factor in being faithful and bold, even in the most extreme

circumstances, was not this, it was the realization of the present grace

of Christ with him.

What I've been trying to encourage our people with, as we equip them to evangelize, is that you're never alone when you

evangelize.

You're not on your own.

Christ is with you, so you can go tell anyone about the gospel, and he's there.

You are not abandoned.

The Spirit of God is the one who is able to change their heart, and you're not, so you're like the

conduit here.

You're the bench player who doesn't get off the bench.

You're just sitting there representing the person who's doing the...

I think if we understand the present grace of Christ with us and see his love for us, that motivates

us and gives us strength and boldness.

So you mentioned earlier, you know, some people don't...

It's not a hyper -Calvinistic approach, but it's just a fear.

You know, I'm afraid.

Well, the present grace of Christ, the more we understand that and realize that, it casts out the fear of

man, because if I know Christ is with me, I'm going to function in his service,

not the service of the people that I'm talking to.

I'm more concerned about what he thinks of me than I am about what they do.

But also I know that he's for me, and if he's for me, who can be against me?

I love what the psalmist says, what can man do to me?

You know?

And if Christ is with me, then I can stand up and share the gospel without fear and with boldness in front of any

audience.

And I think there's also future grace that we see in Paul's theology as well.

We see that in different places.

For example, in Philippians chapter one, to live is Christ and to die is gain.

Well, he's arguing there, the reason that I'm still on earth, the reason that I'm still here

is to proclaim the gospel for you, to you Philippians, so that I might come to you and you might be.

So what he's saying there

is, that is part of grace, because I know all of this is worth it.

All the suffering, if it was up to me, it would be far better just to be in heaven right now.

But I'm here for you, knowing that this earth, the struggles that I will encounter,

last time I was in your city I was treated terribly and imprisoned, but that's worth it for me to come back there and continue

doing what I'm doing, because I know that to die is gain.

I think you see that also in when he speaks about the greater weight of glory that is waiting for

him.

We talk about that in terms of suffering and struggles, kind of generally and broadly, which I think we can,

but the actual context of what he's saying there in 2 Corinthians chapters 4 and 5, what he's getting at there is,

I'm actually suffering for doing the work of Christ in proclaiming the gospel, but I'm okay with that, because

that's light and momentary affliction compared to the weight of glory that I will

experience on the other side of this.

So I think dwelling in the past realized aspects of the gospel, that Christ

died for me, and living in the fact and abiding in the fact that Christ's love is present with

me, and living in the fact that whatever happens to me, I've got a greater reward

on the other side of this life.

That propels me to evangelize, and that's unfading and constant.

So that's what I mean when I speak about the engine that propels evangelism.

You know, we have a listener.

From Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, CJ, and that's not very far from Massapequa.

Not at all.

And CJ from Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, has a very good question, because it's something that

I have faced, and I think that everybody who shares the gospel, or proclaims the gospel is a better word, I

think, experiences.

CJ says, do you have any counsel and guidance for when we are evangelizing

and the people that we are speaking with are finding every rabbit

trail and every way to take the spotlight off of their own lost condition and

need for a savior onto another topic?

It seems to happen nearly every single time I evangelize, and I can say that I get quite

frustrated and sometimes lose my train of thought.

Do we not have to take control of the conversations in as loving and compassionate a way

as we can, without acting as if we are ignoring issues that the person we are

speaking to may have interest in, but at the same time, we should not let them drag us away on these rabbit

trails?

Well, that's absolutely a wonderful.

Question, and I don't think there's a blanket statement way to answer that question.

Part of it plays into it, part of what plays into this is, is it a conversation that is

ongoing with the same individual, or is this something that is a one -time conversation with a stranger on

the train or at the park?

I would answer differently based upon that.

I would also say, for example, if it's somebody who you know well, they're a family member, and they have a

lot of questions that seem to be side issues, I would say, all right, let me do this.

Let me write down all of these questions that you have, because they're valid, and they're not

unnecessary, but let's write them down, and we'll try to come back to those, and then redirect your

attention to the main point.

But I would say if it's somebody who you don't know at all, you will probably never see again, and they're just

diverting from any kind of spiritual things.

I have this happen.

Sometimes people want to talk about politics, or about the, you know, what about the Roman Catholic?

When that happens, it's very easy for people

to think you're sidestepping their questions, if you don't lovingly say, I just

don't think that's the main point, and I think you can just say that.

You know, I agree with, I agree that that's an important question, but that's not the main point.

The main point that the Bible talks about is this, and then get

out there as an enemy towards God.

I think that it's a difficult thing to navigate, and it's very challenging to know what to do

sometimes, but I also think we can shoot ourselves in the foot a little bit, CJ, by

trying to present the Gospel in a way that is very complex, and by creating a lot of

unnecessary rabbit trails, so the person is now getting question marks in their head about all

sorts of different things that we're not trying to actually talk about right now.

So you could begin talking, for example, about, well, there's an argument within our church about

Arminianism and Calvinism, and I'm a Calvinist, and begin presenting things about that, and people begin to wonder, I don't

know anything about those words.

What does that mean?

And then ask you questions about that, taking away from, not that those are unnecessary or worthless conversations, those

are great conversations, but that's not your goal in this 10 -minute long

conversation.

So I think it's very important, as much as possible, your conversations

with people in such a way that you're really focusing on the meat, and if they keep saying, well, what about this?

What about that?

Sometimes they're never going to listen.

You know, there's nothing you can do to get them to a point of listening, but sometimes you can just say, that's a great question.

I don't think that matters in terms of what we're talking about right now.

I hope that answers your question.

Thank you for asking.

Well, we are actually out of time now, brother.

We've definitely got to have you back on the show soon, and I know that your website is

redeeminggraceny .com.

Redeeminggraceny .com.

Can you quickly tell our listeners about the special event that you're.

Having?

By special event, you mean our evangelism training?

We're just doing that every Wednesday for the next, we'll do three more of them.

Actually, earlier on today, you had Phil Sessa on the show.

He's going to be teaching, not this coming Wednesday, but the 1st of August.

You, everyone is welcome to come to that.

It's something that's open to the public.

We just want to be able to equip the saints to be able to proclaim the gospel well.

I'm very different, Chris, than most of the people that you have on your show, in that I am by no means a master of this

field.

I'm not an authority when it comes to evangelism.

I'm doing this partially because I need to grow in this area.

I love the Lord, and I want to be able to proclaim the gospel better, and I want my church to be able to do that better,

too.

So anyone that would like to come, we would welcome, arms wide open, to have people come hear about how to grow in the

ability to present the gospel.

The next three sessions will be, the next one is going to be all about apologetics, how to use

them wisely and well, how not to use them, and how to defend the faith.

Then Phil Sessa is going to come.

His goal will be to discuss with us how to turn any conversation that you get into to

the gospel.

CJ, that might be a really great time for you to be there.

I'm excited about that.

I have a lot to learn in that area.

And then the fourth one that we're going to be doing will be the 8th of August.

It's kind of a practicum where I'm going to go back and forth from being, I'll be Roman

Catholic man or atheist man, and people will just try to share the gospel with me, and I'll play devil's advocate, so we can

see how that plays out as somebody attempts to share the gospel, and I'll just

try to allow them to use what they've learned in these.

Last few weeks.

Once again, that website for Redeeming Grace Fellowship of Massapequa, Long Island

is redeeminggraceny .com.

Thank you so much, Pastor Caleb Bunch.

I look forward to your return.

I want to thank everybody who listened today, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far

greater Savior than you are a sinner.

Amen.