May 13, 2022 Show with Josh Clark on “The One-Million-Dollar Debate Challenge to Herschel Walker” PLUS Dr. Joe Morecraft on “Why the Outlawing of Abortion Without Exceptions is an Essential Goal for Obedient Christians”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have a view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions and now here's your host

Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

Earth. We're listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is

Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio wishing you a happy Friday the 13th on this 13th day of May 2022.

I'm very excited about both of my guests. One of my guests is a first -time guest for the first hour and the second guest is a frequently returning visitor on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

For the first hour we have Josh Clark who is Georgia Right to Life's only pick for the

United States Senate race in Georgia. He will be on with us for the first half of the program and the second hour we will be joined by our dear friend

Dr. Joe Moorcraft, the author and pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church in Cumming, Georgia, and he is going to be addressing the theme,

Why the Outlawing of Abortion Without Exception is an

Essential Goal of Every Obedient Christian. But first of all, let me introduce to the program for the very first time ever,

Josh Clark. Curtis, it's great to be with you. Thank you so much for having me today.

I'm looking forward to your second hour too because Joe Moorcraft is a good friend of mine. Well, praise

God for that. He's a good man to have as a good friend. Yes, he is, and also a

Georgia native. And one of my favorite guests, I'm actually considering renaming my program the

Joe Moorcraft Show. He's on so often. But, first of all,

Josh, tell us about what is at stake here in Georgia, not only for the primaries, but also for the race when you will be face -to -face opposing the

Democratic candidate. Well, Chris, there is a lot, obviously, at stake in this race.

In fact, I believe it's the most important race in the country, perhaps, this year if we want to stop

Biden's reckless, big -government, socialist, communist agenda that's taken over.

And so we're working hard. In fact, I'm in the back of the Liberty bus. We've named our bus the

Liberty bus. It's a 45 -foot bus. And my wife and I, my childhood sweetheart, been married for 20 years, known her since I was five, she's driving the bus right now.

I'm in the back, and we have the family, five of the six children are with us on board the bus.

So, anyway, if you hear any noises, just forgive me. I would normally, I'd do my best to not be in this situation, but to be driving during an interview.

But I apologize. We are on a tight schedule today, headed to Savannah. Of course. Well, we have a tradition here on the program, whenever we have a first -time guest, we have that guest give a summary of their salvation testimony, including the kind of religious atmosphere they were raised in, if any, and the kind of providential circumstances our

Sovereign Lord raised up in their lives that drew them to Himself and saved them. So let's hear a summary of your salvation story,

Josh. Well, I am honored to get to share that. A little bit of the background leading up to that,

I want to give credit to where credit is due. First and foremost, of course, my

Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But He blessed me, and as a result of the story

I'm about to share with you, and as a result, to whom much is given, much is required, I always say, so help me

God. But I grew up as the oldest of 10 children in Suwannee, Georgia.

Used to be a little rural community at the time, on a small farm that we rented. My father was a pastor of a small church, and my mother was a teacher who decided to homeschool us.

So I was very blessed to be one of the first, really the first generation of homeschoolers, and to learn, you know, learn biblical founding fathers, the

Constitution, the Bill of Rights, the biblical principles that were woven in. History was my favorite subject.

And so a lot of that lay -in -the -ground work that led to, I think, where I am today and God calling me to run, but as far as my salvation testimony,

I got saved at an early age after there was a plane wreck that went down, and it really bothered me, and it started a lot of deep conversations with my parents, and primarily with my mother.

My father was in Bible college at the time, and I kept, you know, asking about them and asking about salvation, and I kept saying

I was ready to get saved, and they kept almost talking me out of it. They wanted to make sure that I really understood.

And I'll never forget the day that I did, where Mom finally agreed to say the sinner's prayer with me and gave my life to Christ that day.

And it was about four years, I was about the age of four years old, and I know it's kind of unusual,

I think, but my parents and those who knew me, and I still remember that day to this day clearly, but it changed my life.

From that point forward, I have, and I've, by God's grace, consistently, and I make mistakes, obviously, a lot,

I have to get back up, but from that moment forward, I had just a passion for sharing the gospel.

In fact, I think the highlight of our campaign so far is that we got to lead a couple people to the Lord two weeks ago on the campaign trail, and I hope we get more.

But from that point forward, I just really, God gave me a heart for people. I was constantly sharing the gospel and inviting people to our house for dinner, which,

I know it sounds crazy, but God can do it even at an early age. And that helped me because over the next few years, my mother lost her health.

She had an accident, lost a kidney, a spleen, and an adrenal. So, I talk about American family values like hard work, faith in God, serving others, but I learned those things at an early age.

But I don't think if I hadn't have gotten saved early, I don't think I would have had the heart to be fertile ground, to be willing,

I guess, to handle some of the responsibilities that came at a very early age, but I wouldn't change a thing except for my mother's suffering.

I tell people, I say, you may have heard there's a celebrity in this race, because there's a big football celebrity in this race, and I say, if you're looking for a celebrity, that's not me.

I didn't even get to play sports growing up, other than there's seven of us boys, we played when we could, but we didn't have the money, and we certainly didn't have the time.

I was helping run the farm, that was my job, and I helped get kids up, put them to bed.

But you know, the result of that, Romans 8, 28, says, all things work together for good. All things to them who love

God and are called according to His purpose, and that's a verse that really has a lot of meaning to me, and not have any regrets or bitterness or feel like I missed out.

I'm like, no, God used all that to prepare me for what He had, and my mother would always challenge us growing up.

She'd say, with spending money on this or spending time on that, is that going to further God's kingdom? Is that going to make a difference?

In the long term. And so, I'm really grateful for all that. Amen. And I know this next question will be very meaningful to a lot of my listeners because they tend to be theologically reformed, but how did you discover and embrace the doctrines of grace?

Well, I would say probably actually coming out of, into my 20s, where, let me just be, let me be very honest, too.

I went to Bible college, didn't finish Bible college, but I wanted, I definitely wouldn't call myself reformed, but I would call myself probably somewhere in the middle.

Okay. I wouldn't call myself a Calvinist or a five -point, but you know what?

I look forward to getting to heaven. I've got a lot of questions about some of that. When I get around my friends, friends at Morecraft, it's always challenging and thought -provoking and, you know,

I'm sure that God will continue to use them in my life to help me kind of grow in my doctrines.

But... Well, what I always say when somebody answers like that, I say, well, you're not reformed yet.

And when was it when you had the thought enter into your head? In fact, it's more the thought, you just described it as a calling.

When did you believe and what were the circumstances surrounding you coming to the conviction that you had been given a call of God to enter into the political arena?

Well, when I got out of high school, and in fact, until 20, I gave all the money from my business, one of the businesses

I own today. I started in my teens and the Lord really blessed me with, but my dad asked me to take the money that I was earning and would

I give it to the family to help them buy the first house. So I did that. And then after the age of 20,

I got very involved in volunteering for the Republican Party. And it was because of the particular verse that said, when the righteous rule, the people rejoice.

So when the wicked mourn, excuse me, when the wicked rule, the people mourn. And that verse right there, we were a

Democrat state at that point. And there was a conversation I had with my mother around the age of six years old, where I said,

Mom, are we Republican or are we Democrat? And I'll never forget what she said. She said, parties change, but principles remain.

We support the party that supports life. And as such, we vote Republican. And then she talked about Israel.

And then from there, we talked about other things that I believe in, limited government, personal responsibility and so forth.

But those were the two big issues. And so wanting to help fight for life and believing that right there in the

Declaration of Independence, we hold these truths to be self -evident, right? That all men are created equal and endowed by who?

Their creator with certain inalienable rights. And I think that first one, life, if you don't have life, nothing else means anything.

So that was my sole passion. So I got involved, started trying to find constitutional conservatives that I felt like were called to run for office and get behind them and volunteer and give money and all while I was building companies in my 20s.

So it's kind of a two -part answer to your question. As far as me getting involved, that was at that time that I felt called to get involved.

And then it was later at 30 years old, I was serving on the board of a Spanish Bible college.

And the president challenged me when I was 30 years old to run for the state house. And I said, well, give me a month.

I'll think about it. I'll pray about it. I said, don't tell anybody else. And I'll get back to you.

And halfway through, we had just a month after having our best month in business the previous month, we were headed to Bolivia to build orphanages.

And I said, you know what? I'm not – no, I'm not running. And then I had a lady on the board who wasn't supposed to know anything who challenged me on the board of that Bible college, and she said, did

God tell you not to? And I went home and told Chelsea, I said, you know what? I can't say that God really has anything to do with this.

I just feel like we've got other plans and things we're supposed to be doing. And I said, but, you know, I do remember that when we first came up,

I asked God, remembering a sermon that I had heard as a teenager, I asked God just to remove any desires or excitement, and I just wanted to hear his voice.

Well, all the excitement was gone. I had no interest. It made no sense to me. So I said no. So I came home, and anyway,

I showed up with my wife. And the next day, we were on our way to visit a church, and I had somebody.

On the way there, I was talking to Chelsea, like, wouldn't it be better for us to serve in missions or, you know, and anyway,

I'll kind of skip through the conversation. But we got there to church, and I had somebody challenge me. And out of the blue, that dude didn't know me at all.

And my wife, it moved my wife to tears, and she said, well, I can't believe this is exactly what you talked about. And really, really,

I'd say prophesied what they saw in me in the future. And I told her, she said, doesn't it impact you?

I said, well, no, the Bible said the devil can appear as an angel of light. So I'm not ready. But anyway, later on that week, several more things happened where we knew, and my wife was probably the clearest sign.

She was not – she'd be happy with a little house in the prairie. But one day she said to me, honey, what are you waiting on?

God has answered each one of our prayers. I'm afraid you don't. And I said, well, honey, I never told you this, but if God ever wanted me to do what he's called others,

I've challenged and encouraged others to do, he would have to show both of us just as clearly. And I said, that's the clearest sign

I've heard yet. So we got into a race that we were supposed to have no chance of winning. And our state newspaper said

I was running against who would be the next governor. Well, we won in that race. There were originally four people.

We won 70 -30 in a landslide. Wow. So that really built my faith, too, that that doesn't always happen.

You know, I shared in my first campaign meeting – this sounds crazy. But I shared in my first campaign meeting what

I thought God gave me to share. And I said, guys, I don't claim to be everything, but here's one thing

I know. God has chosen the foolish things of this world to confound the wise and the base things and the things which are not to bring to nothing the very people who think they're all that so that no flesh would glory in its presence.

I said, so guess what? I got a chance. And that's God's delight in using the foolish things and him getting the glory.

So the guy I wanted to be my campaign finance director did not take it, although since then he's become a good friend.

But we won. So it kind of leads in later on to a story where me running for the U .S. Senate. But it's a little bit of a longer answer, but that's the whole story.

That's how I got in. Now, there is insults that have always been hurled against those running for any political office no matter what side of the coin they are on.

If they are career politicians, people who have held political office for many years, they are mocked because they are career politicians and they don't know anything about the needs and the passions of your average

American citizen. And then when you have your average American citizen who's never been involved in politics running for an office, they're mocked for having no experience.

And the audience will be told, the voters will be told, well, this person won't even know what to do if they were to be elected.

So how do you look at both sides of those coins? And obviously you have to be careful how you answer because you one day may be, if you win, a career politician eventually.

Well, if they go to my website, by the way, they can see a picture of my story there.

But I call myself the proven conservative. And what I served,

I won that race. And I served two terms. And then I term limited myself. I left unopposed.

And I really have always believed, and I said this during my public service, that public service should be a season and not a lifetime career.

I think I have too many people making careers out of it. When you look at Pelosi, 36 years and Biden coming up on 50.

I mean, it's unreal. And then they get wealthy while they're serving too often. And so that's why we signed a term limit pledge when

I got in this race. We sold all of our stocks. And we pledged, made a commitment we will not, neither of us will trade stocks while I'm in office.

Because I really think it should be a sacrifice. It should be a service.

It should also be a privilege. It is definitely a privilege. But I don't think we should have people getting rich while serving.

I mean when we met as a family, and maybe we'll get a chance to get to that story later, what caused us to run for US Senate, but we had a family meeting.

And I've read the Declaration of Independence the way they – the way it closes out.

We pledge our life, our fortunes, and our sacred honor, and nine of them died.

And the John Hancock signature, the big signature on there, he died in a debtor's prison and was the wealthiest person at the start.

So I think that there's a balance, as you said. Having somebody like me who has experience but is not a career politician,

I believe, I guess I would hopefully humbly say that I think that's the perfect balance. And if you look at the rest of the candidates in this race, they don't have any experience.

And I think that at this time in our country's history with so much at stake, I think we're at that tipping point where we either get this right now, or I'm really concerned that there won't be time to straighten things out.

So I think having a proven conservative that has a track record of serving, can get right to work, been in the legislature, so it's going to be now at a higher level of legislature, but it's the same deal.

But most importantly, do they have a track record of faithfulness, by God's grace, where they've been tested and tried, and they've stood?

You know what I'm talking about? They say all the right things. They tell you what you want to hear on the campaign trail, and then

I get majorly disappointed later on when I realize, maybe you had good intentions when you said it, but that's not who you are.

Amen. Well, the issue of abortion is to,

I believe, every regenerate, true Christian, one of the pinnacles, one of the absolute essential issues that must be demanded for a candidate that is running for office, that this candidate opposes all forms of abortion.

And I was very happy to hear Georgia Right to Life has you as their only pick for the

U .S. Senate race in Georgia. And this issue is something that, sadly, conservatives are professing, conservatives and Republicans, have really not treated with the urgency and importance that it deserves.

I mean, we're talking about infanticide, we're talking about murder of children, the weakest, most fragile, most helpless humans among us.

And the Republican Party has never really championed this as an absolute essential to outlaw this crime as a part of one's platform, as a litmus test of who truly deserves our votes.

So tell us, our listeners, exactly when this issue became a passion of yours and how you intend to approach this evil of all crimes as a senator.

Well, I appreciate the way you communicate about this with calling it out for what it is, evil, it's genocide.

It's – I don't – how are we going to ask God to bless us as a nation when we're killing – 65 million babies are being murdered?

And so I do think it should be the central – it should be the central issue, the focus.

And for me, it just so happens to be the first conversation that I ever had with my mother. Now, I don't think you have to have a conversation with your mother to arrive at this, but I was blessed.

I was blessed. I mean, I really wanted to have that conversation with her because it does help me in arguing these issues when people say, well, what do you know?

You're a male. Well, first of all, that should not discredit you. You took part in producing that baby.

You're responsible. However, it does work to my advantage, though, I'll tell you, when

I have these conversations because we passed the fetal pain bill in Georgia back in 2012. And they would say to me once, as a male, why should you have anything to say about this?

And I said, boy, shouldn't a mother influence their son? Here's what my mother would say. Here's what my wife would say. Here's what my sisters would say.

And they couldn't argue with that. In fact, when I said, shouldn't your mother influence you on these issues, they started stuttering.

And I say that partly because for the moms who are listening, you play such an important role, and I thank you for that.

And if you didn't have a mother who taught that, guess what? You can teach that to your children.

But it is the most important issue, I believe. And I think wall builders,

David Barton, I heard him do a program on this some time back where he talked about, showed the statistics, that if you get this issue right and you're passionate about it and it's a central focus, then you're going to get the rest of the issues right.

In fact, over 85 % chance that your candidate will be strong on the other issues that matter to you.

You care about your pocketbook? Well, first check, will they stand up for life? Do they value life enough to fight for it?

And if they do, chances are they'll be like I am, a penny pincher who won't walk past a penny if I see it without picking it up.

Because I can't be faithful not just a little, I won't be faithful more. But I think back to this pro -life, I also think right now with Lord willing, and I heard,

I don't know, I've been so busy today from sunup, in fact, long before sunup, but I haven't got to catch up on everything.

But I think I heard that they may deliver the decision on Monday. Are you hearing that?

I have been hearing rumors about it. Yeah, rumors. I hope that rumor is correct. Either way, we hope to have the decision delivered down this summer.

And that's just the beginning then of the fight. While it's a huge victory, one that we've all been working for and praying for, you know, for 50 years, it's just the beginning because now it comes back to the state, but also to Congress.

And as we know, Pelosi already passed a bill last year, the Senate saying they're going to take up a bill to legalize abortion.

So first thing that I'm going to do is we're going to introduce a personhood amendment because we need to clearly define that life begins at conception through natural death.

Amen. That's going to be a central focus for me. And I want to say something else on this. This is not often talked about.

And this is just a brutal reality, though, that abortion and Planned Parenthood came out of the eugenics movement.

That's right. It's a shame that our state had such a role in it. In fact, Hitler praised and gave credit to our country.

Yes. States like Georgia and California and many others and said it was like a model for him that he advanced.

That's right. And it should be a ugly stain that we want to remove as quickly as possible.

And it's really led to the genocide of African -Americans, of black people, because the black population makes up 12 percent of the population, yet 39 percent or higher of the abortion.

That means that more blacks are killed from abortion than the top nine leading causes of death.

Wow. Famics are pretty high too. So if you and I believe Genesis 1, that we were 127, that God created us in his own image, and the image of God created them, male and female created them, it answers so many questions that we're dealing with today.

And I'll tell you this, Chris. It also brings me back to why I'm so fired up about this race. And we're just putting everything on the line,

I mean everything, even our home with the $1 million debate challenge we just issued to Hershel Walker.

But it's like we're at that point right now where they want to destroy the family.

Abortion now, it's not even about the first trimester or the second. Now it's about even a month after, and perhaps even the rate we're going, there's questions about how far is that even going with bills that have been introduced.

So to me, if we don't have a candidate who understands Genesis 127 and will not just understand it, but will stake everything on it and understand you don't have a solid country.

You don't have the blessings of liberty. They will not continue if we have not built upon our

Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, the biblical principles that were woven into the Constitution, and understanding that God created families as the building blocks for a healthy nation.

And if you destroy the family, you've destroyed the nation. You don't even need to talk about tax policy and all that if the family's not in tax.

That's right. In fact, I want to go into, when we return from my first break, your $1 million challenge, debate challenge to Hershel Walker.

And if anybody has a question for Josh Clark, send it in rather quickly because he's only on for the first half of the show, and we've only got half of that left.

So send it in immediately to chrisarnsen at gmail .com. C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence. Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages.

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I'm Dr. Joseph Piper, President Emeritus and Professor of Systematic and Applied Theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary.

Every Christian who's serious about the Deformed Faith and the Westminster Standards should have and use the eight -volume commentary on the theology and ethics of the

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It is much more than an exposition of the Larger Catechism. It is a thoroughly researched work that utilizes biblical exegesis as well as historical and systematic theology.

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For details on the eight -volume commentary go to westminstercommentary .com westminstercommentary .com

For details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia visit heritagepresbyterianchurch .com

heritagepresbyterianchurch .com Please tell Dr. Morecraft and the Saints at Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia that Dr.

Joseph Piper of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary sends you. Welcome back.

If you just tuned us in, our guest for the first hour is Josh Clark, Georgia Right to Life's only pick for the

United States Senate race in Georgia. And we are now going to address the $1 million debate challenge to Herschel Walker, his opponent in this race.

If you have a question, our email address is chrislonsen at gmail .com. And before I go to any of our listener questions,

I don't know a lot about Herschel Walker other than the fact that he is a world -renowned football player who was a

Heisman Trophy winner. And he was also in pro ball, the

NFL, with the Cowboys and the Vikings and the Eagles and the Giants.

And he's even in the College Football Hall of Fame in 1999. He's running for Senate in Georgia.

And when I see him on Fox News, I can't remember ever disagreeing with him on anything.

And he seems like a, in spite of his fame, he seems like a very humble man. And according to his profession, he would be our brother in Christ.

I don't know him well enough to know whether that profession is something that he lives out day to day and is bearing fruit.

But I know that according to his profession, he is. Why is it that he would be, in your mind, an insufficient senator?

And why are you offering him this debate challenge? Well, we are, yeah, that's a great question because he was a childhood hero of mine growing up.

An important hero, I should say. An important hero growing up. And so, you know, it was a big deal when you hear the story of why

I got in this race. It's a crazy story how God got our attention and confirmed it through a myriad of ways to the point where we knew that we had to change our plans.

We thought we were going to go to Costa Rica for a year to learn Spanish. We had started a group, taking families to serve together in a third world part of Costa Rica.

And so we were looking forward to that. And this was not part of the plan. But you know what? Many of the plans of a man, but the

Lord directs his steps, right? Same time, I believe we're supposed to be making plans. You know, the plans of the diligent lead to prosperity.

But I love how God just constantly tests me to say, make plans, but now let me see if they're yielded to me.

And so that's why we got in this race was because God called us to it.

But after getting into the race, we realized that not everything was as it looked on the surface.

For example, I think Herschel is a nice guy. He's very nice to be around.

However, just over a year ago, he did a video. Actually, he spoke. I have the video on my

YouTube channel, which is linked to my website, spokejosh .com, where he said, got on this podcast with Don Trump Jr.

And he said, guys, it's going to freak you all out. They said, what? He said, I've been thinking about it.

You know, the Constitution was written in a bygone era a long time ago, he said. And, you know, the demographics of the country have changed so much.

He said, don't you think it's time that we amend the Constitution? Wow. And he said it like three times because of changing demographics.

And then he ends it by saying, that's why we need a progressive candidate who understands that.

Wow. And I listen to that. I said, oh, my goodness. Yes, he's a great football player.

If you want to field a football team and win a championship, pick him, not me. Right. I love football, but I'm not a great football player.

But if you want somebody who's going to fight for the Constitution and who even has a track record of that, like me, who has had to stand up to leadership.

And my brother, who I'm proud of, he's an Army Ranger in Special Forces, Green Beret himself, been stripped of his chairmanship and been unwilling to stand.

I think that's what America needs right now. So again, back to Herschel. That concerned me.

Then I read his book, and I'm not going to go into the details.

They're kind of gory, but he writes a book about his mental health challenges, and I believe in forgiveness and redemption.

But I don't think that necessarily means we all need to be on the bus, but what seats are we supposed to be in?

And so I'm concerned that I don't think he can win in November because the Democrats are going to beat him over the head, and we have to win the

Senate seat. And when the guy won't even show up for debate, when he's been asked, what does pro -life mean to you?

Again, notice he's not endorsed by Georgia Right to Life. And when he's asked, he just says, well, do you know

Jesus? Tell me what Jesus means to you. And the person said, well, that's great, but I'd like to know – more you don't know necessarily.

Tell me, what does pro -life mean? I need to know that. And so he rarely answers questions.

Sometimes he will, and he won't show up for any debate. And if anyone needs to practice debating, and you know that verse that your radio show is named after, as iron sharpens iron, one man sharpens another.

I've always said that when it comes to primaries, it's a good thing when you have a bunch of people in the primaries.

It makes you sharper. It helps prepare you for the major battle that's coming.

And so my wife – we talked about this on Monday.

Should we – because we've already talked about this when we got in the race as a family. I told you that earlier, that if God was calling us to run, just like when we gave our life to Christ, accepted that – we accepted his will for our life.

Whatever that means, he's in control. He's sovereign. If he wants us to sell our home, we've got to do that.

We're just sojourners down here. And so on Monday we talked about, should we – in fact, one of our campaign staff suggested it.

He's a volunteer. He's like all the rest of our staff, working so hard in volunteering. And they said, hey, if we really want

Herschel to show up for debate, what if you put up a million dollars? Well, you could get a million dollars cash right now.

I've been blessed in business. I own several companies. But to have a million dollars in cash right now, we would need to sell our home probably to do that.

So we went to bed that night, and Chelsea said, I don't know that we're supposed to do that. The next morning I woke up early.

And guess what? She challenged me. She said, what do you think? And I said, I don't know.

And she said, well, I woke up early, and I've been praying about it. She said, I think our country is at that point where we do need to put everything on the line.

She said, would you have thought that just a year or two years ago we'd be dealing with all these pronouns, that we'd be dealing with the sexual indoctrination of our children, perversion that's going on?

I mean, she said, I think we need to put our house up. I'm willing to do that. She said, if we have to sell our home and we have to move into one of our smaller rental houses.

Now, let me say this. I know we've been blessed. So let me say that. We came from nothing, both of us.

She's the second oldest of 12. I'm the oldest of 10. But we've been blessed. But at the same time, our blessings aren't for us just to hold onto and grip.

I believe that we need to be willing to surrender them at any point in time, and so that's what we're doing. We feel like if Herschel is going to run for the

US Senate, he needs to show up for the interview, for the job interview just like I would tell anyone to do.

And so we're saying show up for two debates, and if you do, we'll give $1 million to charity. We've already designated part of that.

It's going to go first to pro -life groups because that's my priority. And it's going to go to pregnancy crisis centers.

And so hopefully he'll show up and we'll get a chance. We'll do that. We'll follow through. That's why.

That's kind of the story. Has there been any response at all? No response, but it's picking up traction.

More and more radio shows and TV shows are saying, you know what?

This is worth carrying. We want to know the story. We're going to challenge Herschel as well. And I'll tell you, it's not – now, it's important that Herschel show up, but there's a lot at stake in this entire race because we need a candidate that's going to hold the line when they get to the

Senate. We've got an evenly divided Senate, and so this senator is going to be the plus one.

And we need them. That's a lot of power. That's a lot of influence that can be used for good or for bad.

And we've got – we're a big military family. We've got four brothers of our – four of her brothers, four of my brothers, four brothers served on the front lines of Afghanistan with bullets flying by them, 13 immediate family members, a lot of grandparents.

And so we're a big military family. But one thing I also believe, though, is just because you're military, yes,

I appreciate you. And you're a hero to me for serving and laying down your life. But that doesn't necessarily mean you're conservative.

So we've got another member, another guy in this race who's a member of the Council of Foreign Relations. Now, if you know anything about that, that's a globalist, elitist, each -state organization, which

Stacey Abrams, who's running for governor, is also a part – a member. And if you look that up, that's scary.

Oh, didn't you know that Stacey Abrams is the governor? I'm only kidding. She thinks she is.

She thinks she is. It's so funny. She never resigned. She said the election was stolen by Pelosi.

But whenever we as conservatives ask questions, you know, we're shunned. We're canceled. We're – which, by the way,

I live in Georgia, right? I'm running for U .S. Senate in Georgia. The election was stolen in Georgia.

None of the candidates in my race will answer that question. But it was absolutely stolen, and I warned everybody who had listened that we would have massive ballot harvesting if we mailed millions of ballot applications out.

And now 2 ,000 mules did a pretty good – did a great job of telling the facts, the story as it is.

Yeah, I got to see that. And, in fact, I know it was stolen in Pennsylvania. I don't know if they showed the footage worldwide of the polling headquarters, but it was just amazing to see the – right in front of your very eyes the theft of votes going on.

It absolutely was, and they did. They did talk about Pennsylvania and covered it. You'll definitely want to watch that for sure.

Okay, well, we have some listeners that are itching to ask you some questions. We have

Bebe in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, who says, I'm very excited about what

I'm hearing about your candidacy, and I have a lot of friends in Georgia who I am going to urge to vote for you.

My question is, I have heard many times throughout my life that it is impossible for a true

Christian to be successful in politics because they will always have to compromise core beliefs to achieve any level of real success and win elections.

How do you respond to that? Well, first of all, I love the fact that she's A, she's listening to this, and she has a serious question that I had as well.

I remember the first state representative I ever met was Todd Akin. Todd Akin served in the

House. They were a homeschool family. Our family stayed together. He was the first state rep that I ever met.

And he ended up becoming a congressman and then running for the U .S. Senate. He won the primary but lost in the general. But that was the first time

I saw that answered that you could. And it was encouraging to me because I love history.

I love, as I said earlier, learning about our founding fathers and the blessings of liberty and where they came from, these biblical principles.

And I wonder though, could you really be a true born -again believer that was on fire for God and wasn't going to compromise your principles?

And I can tell you from my own experience, by God's grace, yes, you can. And I'll tell you just kind of a story where I got tested early on.

I was in my first term. They were trying to pass Obamacare in the state of Georgia. And I told them,

I said, no, we're not going to do it at the state level. We're not going to help implement this. I'm against it at the federal level.

We're not going to help as a state to get it done. And so I said, no, I'm no on it. But if I'm no,

I'm not only no vote for me, it means I'm going to use the influence God has given me. It's one of my gifts.

It's being wisdom and loving people, even those who disagree with me or I disagree with. So I went office by office trying to talk people into voting no.

So the day of the vote came up, the speaker called me off the House floor, and I'll never forget this.

I get up there to the rostrum, and he said, son, who do you think you are, the tail wagging the dog?

He said, you need me to get reelected. And this is what I said to him by God's grace, exactly what

I said. I said, Mr. Speaker, in all due respect, when I get home at night and my kids are asleep,

I need to know that I fought for the next generation. And number two, when I lay my head on the pillow at night,

I need a clear conscience between me and God. I said, and then after that, Mr. Speaker, I said, I try to be a team player as much as I can.

But if I'm against something principally, you're going to know where I'm at. I'll tell you up front, and then, yes,

I'm going to try to kill it. And you know what happened after that? It was the most – and I don't think this always will happen, but it encouraged me that God's word, it is spot on.

It says God can change minds like channels of water. You know what the speaker said to me all of a sudden?

He looked at me. He said, you know what? Okay, you're right. You did tell me where you stood.

And I gave him one other example at the end of that. I said, Mr. Speaker, there was a bill that I came here that I wanted to advance on illegal immigration.

And I told you that I was willing to get behind one of the team's bills. And you had a bill that did the same thing that wasn't about me just getting attention or grandstanding.

And anyway, he acknowledged all that. And from that point on, when other people get their arms twisted, they would just ask me,

Representative Clark, where are you on this? I'd tell them, and I wouldn't get – they knew they couldn't force me.

They couldn't bribe me. I was going to stand where I stood, and that is what it was. And if I agreed with you on something, well,

I'd help advance it. And I'd help you carry the load regardless if I got any recognition. So the short answer is

I absolutely believe that God can give favor and that we don't have to compromise to get things done.

Now, it may be also like my brother is in a season where he stood up to that very same speaker by no surprise.

If you said that to me, you're not surprised that there were issues later on. My brother ended up – when I left unopposed, the guy who was going to replace me had a massive heart attack.

And my brother ended up stepping up, and he ran, and I'm so proud of him. But he stood against that speaker because he was using his office to enrich himself.

And my brother got wind of this, and he stood. He was stripped of his chairmanship. I joke that he's kind of put in a dungeon office.

Not necessarily, but you can't – you don't get the prime office space. You don't get chairmanships when opposed to the speaker.

But you know what? He's about to win reelection, and the speaker is working against him, and he's going to win that,

I'm confident. And you know what? God will take care of him because he's doing it for the right reasons. And so I'm encouraged by this race, and I'm also encouraged that that question comes from Pennsylvania because we need people's help.

Not only their votes from Georgia, but we need their help across the country, whether they're making phone calls in this last week and a half, whether they are sending donations.

I mean right now, every dollar is going toward our ads to keep them up right now. We're just walking by faith every day.

And it's going to be – the fact that we came out of the last poll after the – the last poll they did after the debate, we were in a strong second place.

All we've got to do is keep Herschel under 50, get in the runoff, and historically in the state of Georgia, and even nationally, historically, you want to be in second place.

So even today I'm blown away that we actually have a real legitimate shot at this, and we could still – we could run this campaign

God's way and not run a nasty, ugly, or just throw stuff out regardless of whether it's truthful because to me, the end does not justify the mean.

So – Excellent answer. We have

Christian in western Suffolk County, New York, who says liberals who either pretend or profess to be

Christians will often bring up a classic text from Acts where they are trying to defend all kinds of welfare enslavement of the poor population.

The classic text is speaking of the Christians who would sell their property and possessions and share them with all to the extent that anyone had need.

How do you respond to people who try to use this rhetoric? The most famous I know who constantly regurgitates this is the leftist filmmaker

Michael Moore. Yes. Well, first of all, when you look at economics,

I believe – I love this illustration. Politics is as easy as pie, that pie equals – politics equals integrity plus economics.

And I believe that the economics of it is the greater the government, the greater the poverty.

The greater the liberty, the greater the prosperity. And I'm all for people deciding voluntarily – just like I am, voluntarily saying

I'll give a million dollars to charity. In fact, that's what is happening there in Acts. The Christians are voluntarily doing this.

Exactly. Not a gun to their head telling them what to do. And so the church is absolutely the only – they are blessed by God.

They are ordained to look out for the fatherless and the widows and their affliction and all.

But government is never blessed by doing that. And that's why whenever the government gets in that area, look at the waste and the fraud and the poverty that comes as a result.

And when we look at welfare, we can look at what it's done to minorities. But it's not just minorities. It's across the spectrum.

But there's a number of issues that I'm very – I mean I like to say I'm a compassionate conservative. But compassion is following biblical principles, conservative principles that lead to prosperity and blessings for everyone involved.

For example, like our border. I slept on the floor for over three years while we had people living in our home.

And my brothers and my two oldest, we slept on the floor with a box with all of our belongings.

And I think that's wonderful that my parents did that. But that doesn't mean I go to the border and open up the borders to everybody that gets to come across.

That's not loving to anybody. That's trafficking at an all -time high. Drug, number one cause of death is drug overdoses, most of that coming from China.

We've got national security risk, 164 countries coming. Did you know that a small minority of these immigrants are coming from Mexico?

A majority are coming from other countries, and they're coming from all over the world, and some of those are terrorist nations.

That's not compassionate. Well, excellent answer, and I wish

I could have you on for two hours and more, but I know that you have such a busy schedule that you're even conducting this interview on your bus.

So I want to make sure our listeners have your website, VoteJosh .com, VoteJosh .com.

Make sure all of you, no matter where you live on the globe who listen to this program, let your friends, family, and loved ones in Georgia know about this brother in Christ, Josh Clark.

That's VoteJosh .com. Thank you, Josh, and I look forward to your return to this program when you are a senator in Georgia.

Thank you. Thank you for having me, and I appreciate your listeners. Have a great day. You too, brother. And don't go away, folks, because Joseph C.

Moorcraft III, one of my favorite guests, is going to be on the program very shortly. This is a longer -than -normal break in the show.

Please be patient, because Grace Life Radio has to air their own public service announcements and other local things, according to the

FCC regulations, to geographically localize Iron Trip and Zion Radio to Lake City, Florida.

So please be patient with us, and don't go away, because we're going to be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

Attention, all men in ministry leadership. You're all invited to my friend Chris Arnzen's Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Free Pastors Luncheon, Thursday, September 22nd, 11 a .m.

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Also, folks, if you are not a member of a Bible -believing church, one that is biblically faithful, one that is theologically sound, one that is

Christ -honoring and doctrinally solid like Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, no matter where on the planet

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I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can send in a question to Dr. Joseph C. Moorcraft III, author and pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church in Cumming, Georgia, and we are going to be addressing the theme why the outlawing of abortion without exceptions is an essential goal for obedient Christians.

It's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr. Joe Moorcraft. It's a joy for me to be with you also.

Enjoy Josh Clark. Oh, yeah. I'm really glad that you are the one that recommended

Josh and Ray Moore as well and Gary DeMar.

And it was a real joy to interview him. And how did you providentially come to meet and know

Josh? He came to church about four or five weeks ago. Wow.

Came to church with his whole family. That's the first I ever knew him or anything, and had his whole family stay for lunch, talked to our elders, and that's how we got to know him.

Great. Well, this is a very vital topic that we are discussing today, and there are some key words in this theme, why the outlawing of abortion without exceptions is an essential goal for obedient Christians.

Why do you believe this, Dr. Moorcraft? Well, the argument is basically simple for Christians, and that is

Genesis 127. As Josh Clark said, God created man and woman in his image, and then after the flood when he commissioned

Noah to rebuild a new world, he said in Genesis 9, whoever sheds man's blood, by man his blood shall be shed, for in the image of God he made man.

And as for you, be fruitful and multiply, populate the earth abundantly and multiply it.

So because man is created in the image of God, any unjust killing of a human being is considered murder in God's sight because it's an attack on God's image in man and therefore is a capital crime.

So having said that, the argument that human life begins at conception in the

Bible is clear as a bell. There's nothing vague about it. There's five or six different strands of argument.

The first thing, the Bible actually says it. The Bible actually says flat out that human life begins at conception.

In Job 3 .3, Job said, let the day perish on which I was born and the night which said a man is conceived.

And the word for man there means a fully human being. So there you have a clear statement in Job 3 .3

that human life begins at conception. And then you have another argument and that is there's a continuity of personhood from conception through adulthood.

I want you to notice pronouns that David uses in Psalm 139 verses 13 through 16.

Notice the pronouns. For thou didst form my inward parts thou didst weave me in my mother's womb.

I will give thanks to thee for I am fearfully and wonderfully made wonderful are thy works and my soul knows it very well.

My frame was not hidden from thee when I was made in secret and skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth.

Thine eyes have seen my unformed substance and in thy book they were all written the days that were ordained for me when as yet there was not one of them.

So David could use this first person pronoun I and me to speak of himself whether he's in the womb or whether he's an adult.

There's a continuity of personhood from conception through adulthood. And then there's a third strand of argument and of course

I'm abbreviating all these but there's a third strand of argument and that is a continuity of sinfulness from conception through adulthood.

Psalm 51 5 Surely I have been a sinner from birth sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

And so he says I have been a sinful human being from the time I was conceived in my mother's womb.

Subhuman animals do not sin. Rabbits don't sin. Dogs don't sin.

Only human beings sin. And here he says that he has been a sinful human being from the time his mother conceived him.

And then also the Bible talks about a continuity of human experiences from conception through adulthood that is experiences that only human beings have.

For instance in Luke 1 15 we find the angel prophesying to Zacharias concerning the birth of his son

John the Baptist. He announced that quote he will be great in the sight of the

Lord and he will be filled with the Holy Ghost while yet in his mother's womb. No animal is filled with the

Holy Ghost. Only human beings can be filled with the Holy Ghost. Or in Luke 1 44 when

Mary hears tells Elizabeth about that she's carrying the Savior she says for behold when the sound of your greeting reached my ear the baby leaped in my womb for joy.

No animal has ever experienced this gospel joy about the good news of Christ.

And then there's an actual law in the book of Exodus verse 21 and if we reject

God's law as still the guiding principle of life we reject the one law that outlaws abortion and considers it a capital crime.

This verse is a little difficult. It's not talking about miscarriage. It's talking about a premature birth that leads to the death of the baby.

Exodus 21 22 through 25 If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there's no serious injury the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows but if there's serious injury you ought to take life for life.

So the argument that the Bible gives for human life beginning at conception is very clear.

You get it from both testaments and whenever a human being from conception on is unjustly killed it is murder and the person that committed the murder or those that conspired to commit the murder should be tried before a court of law and if found guilty executed.

Now I say the last because I believe abortion is not just murder it's conspiracy to commit murder.

So anybody that participated involuntarily in that abortion enabled that abortion paid for that abortion is one of the conspirators and therefore guilty of murder.

Now after having said that let me say this you cannot prove that human life begins at conception without an absolute moral standard originating with God.

You lay aside the Bible and there's no way of proving that human life begins at conception.

You may say an unborn baby feels pain at such and such a time. You hear a heartbeat at such and such a time.

But without an absolute moral standard there is no way of proving that human life begins at conception and what's even worse without an absolute moral standard there's no reason whatsoever to believe that murder is wrong.

So it's either Christ or chaos. It's either God's law or it's murder or it is inability to deal with the great holocaust of abortion.

And the argument that even conservatives are getting into is so shallow.

I mean I get so discouraged when I hear conservatives saying they're pro -life and defending pro -life causes and they pass all these bills regulating abortion like the heartbeat bill and they say we are really pro -life because we believe that there should be no abortions after the baby's heartbeat can be heard

I think about the 15th week. Well you see that is a pro -abortion law because that means that abortion prior to the 15 weeks is legal and the poor little baby has no one defending it for the first 15 weeks of its life.

Yes, I've even heard from folks like Jeff Durbin I know you're familiar with Jeff who is really on the front lines of the battle to end abortion.

He has said that those kinds of laws the heartbeat laws and so on they actually further complicate the success of those trying to abolish abortion completely.

That is true. It complicates everything. But Christians have got to understand if you believe the

Bible is the word of God that is if you believe that whatever it asserts to be true is true and if it says that human life begins at conception and that the murder of human life is a capital crime then you have to be against all abortions there is no way you can justify to still believe the

Bible is the word of God. And you're also redefining abortion as no longer meaning murder when you make any exception.

That is exactly right. That's why I love the Georgia Rights Alive organization. They don't have any hesitation whatsoever to refer to abortion as murder.

And that means that the woman who had the abortion if she's not a victim she is a criminal.

If it's not something forced upon her she herself is an accomplice.

By the way, you may be pleased to hear this. You may have already heard this. But another bit of good news that I recently heard from Jeff Durbin one of the pastors along with James White at Apologia Church he informed me that a very well -known pro -life activist

Abby Johnson who was at one time an employee at Planned Parenthood and after seeing abortions she realized that murder was occurring and she quit and became pro -life and actually created the film

Unplanned. Well, she used to be very opposed to the legal prosecution of the mothers involved in the murder of their children but she has switched to the right side of that issue.

She now agrees with Jeff and other abortion abolitionists that if it's murder they need to be prosecuted.

I heard that and I praised the Lord for it finally. But Christians need to realize

I want to emphasize what I just said again and repeat myself. There is no way you can prove human life begins at conception without the

Bible. Without a divinely revealed book from God there is no way to prove it.

And there is no way to say that the murder of unborn babies is evil.

There is no way you can say that without a Bible. I'll give you an example. One time I was witnessing to this young woman who'd lived a rough life.

She'd been in jail. She had done a lot of criminal activity. And now she declared herself to be a

Buddhist in North Georgia. So now she's a Buddhist. And I prayed,

Lord show me how I can witness to this girl. So at that time there were several child murders taking place in Atlanta, Georgia.

And so I asked her, not because she was guilty of this, but I was trying to shock her into thinking.

And I said, Ma 'am, what do you believe about child molestation? And she said, oh,

I think it's evil. I said, well, that's interesting. I do too, but I don't know why you do.

You're a Buddhist. You don't believe there's any book of absolute moral standards.

And so I don't know. You may not prefer it. You may wish people didn't molest children.

But I don't see for the life of me without moral absolutes how you can call and judge somebody for murder without just imposing your own will upon them.

Excellent. In fact, James White, who I often quote in this show because he's so brilliant and my close friend, he debated

David Silverman on atheism. David Silverman was at the time the president of Madeleine Murray O 'Hare's organization,

American Atheists, an ethnically Jewish atheist. And James White basically used the same argument with him.

And he said, so basically, if you're being marched by Nazi guards through the gates of Dachau, the most you could say in protest is,

I find this personally offensive and I would prefer this not happen. I mean, it's the most you could say.

And he agreed. He said yes. Well, let me tell you what this girl said. She started crying.

And she said, Pastor Moorcraft, if I can't call child molestation murder,

I don't want to live in a world without moral absolutes. Wow. I said, ma 'am, you don't.

And the same moral absolutes that condemn the child molester condemn you for not believing in Jesus.

Wow. So, of course, we can make the same argument about abortion. Without moral absolutes, we cannot identify that unborn child as a human being and we cannot call abortion murder.

In fact, we can't even call murder evil. Wow. Well, we're going to go to our final break, so I don't have to interrupt you mid -sentence.

And when we come back, we're going to go to some of our listener questions. There are some that were left over from Josh Clark, who didn't have time to ask, but the questions apply to the abortion issue.

And there are some that are coming in new for you. So if anybody wants to get in line and have your own question asked and answered, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you live outside the

USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal, private matter. Don't go away. We'll be right back with Joe Moorcraft.

When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

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James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries here, excited to announce that my longtime friend, Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading to Washington, D .C.

for the G3 Ministries Regional Conference on the theme, Just Thinking About the Bible. The conference will be held

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Every Christian who's serious about the Deformed Faith and the Westminster Standards should have and use the eight -volume commentary on the theology and ethics of the

Westminster Larger Catechism titled Authentic Christianity by Dr. Joseph Morecraft.

It is much more than an exposition of the Larger Catechism. It is a thoroughly researched work that utilizes biblical exegesis as well as historical and systematic theology.

Dr. Morecraft is Pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, and I urge everyone looking for a biblically faithful church in that area to visit that fine congregation.

For details on the eight -volume commentary, go to westminstercommentary .com, westminstercommentary .com.

For details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit heritagepresbyterianchurch .com,

heritagepresbyterianchurch .com. Please tell Dr. Morecraft and the saints at Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia that Dr.

Joseph Piper of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary sends you. Hello, my name is

Anthony Uvinio, and I'm one of the pastors at Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Quorum, New York, and also the host of the reformrookie .com

website. I want you to know that if you enjoy listening to the Iron Sharpens Iron radio show like I do, you can now find it on the

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Subscribe to the Iron Sharpens Iron radio podcast right now. And while you're at it, you can also sign up for the reformrookie .com

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And finally, if you're looking to worship in a Reformed church that holds to the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith, please join us at Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Corham, New York.

Again, I'm Pastor Anthony Vigna and thanks for listening. Iron Sharpens Iron Radio If you love

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One such faithful advertiser who really believes in what Chris Arnton is doing is

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Thanks for helping to keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. Attention all men in ministry leadership.

You're all invited to my friend Chris Arnzen's Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Free Pastor's Luncheon Thursday, September 22nd, 11am to 2pm at Church of the

Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania featuring me, James White of Alpha Omega Ministries, your keynote speaker.

Not only will you enjoy a wonderful time of fellowship with your colleagues in ministry over a delicious meal, but you'll also receive dozens of free brand new books donated by Christian publishers all over the

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Free Pastor's Luncheon today by calling 631 -291 -7002 631 -291 -7002 or by visiting ironsharpensironradio .com

ironsharpensironradio .com This is James White of Alpha Omega Ministries hoping to see you

Thursday, September 22nd, 11am to 2pm at Church of the Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania for Chris Arnzen's Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Free Pastor's Luncheon.

And I hope to see you too. You can also send me an email to chrisarnzen at gmail .com

chrisarnzen at gmail .com and put Pastor's Luncheon in the subject line. Dr.

Moorcraft, we have a listener, an anonymous listener who says,

I disagree with one of my closest friends who is a pastor and who is also

Reformed over the issue of voting for the lesser of two evils when both candidates for a particular office are pro -abortion but one may be more conservative than the other.

How do you respond to that? Well, that's a very important question and let me just tell you what

I do. I don't vote for anybody that believes in abortion. Amen.

Nobody. Now, let me tell you where the phrase the lesser of two evils come from.

In the Weimar Republic, which was set up in Germany after World War I, the great industrialists and capitalists in Germany were not allowed to make the money they could make because all of it was going to the allied countries.

And so they were getting fed up with the Weimar Republic. And a young politician comes to them and says, if you vote for me,

I will change the Weimar Republic. I know you don't agree with me on everything, but I will dismantle the

Weimar Republic and make it possible for you, powerful industrialists and capitalists, to make money that you should make.

So all of these men got together and said, well, we don't like this guy, but he's the lesser of the two evils.

So they voted for Hitler. Wow. They were not Nazis. Wow.

They were capitalists. So the lesser of the two evils is not always easy to identify, number one.

I think that a liberal acting as a conservative is the greater of the two evils if the other is a liberal.

But the point is, whether they're the lesser or the greater of the two evils,

I don't vote for evil. And I don't vote for philistines.

Can you imagine Israel choosing philistines as their politicians?

Right. So I think we Christians, one of the things about, we've talked about this on your show before, is that Christians leave the

Bible outside the voting booth. And they vote largely out of fear or of pragmatism.

Well, if I don't vote for this guy, I don't like him. But if I don't vote for him, such and such a person will be elected.

Whenever fear is the dominating factor in the voting booth, you've got to make mistakes.

Take the Bible with you in the voting booth and judge the candidates by the word of God.

Amen. I remember when that very issue was very prominent in my own life.

Back in 1995, I was 33 years old at the time. I remember how old

I was immediately because it was the year my mom went home to glory. But there was a very tense gubernatorial race in New York where I was a resident at the time.

You had George Pataki running against the seated governor,

Mario Cuomo. And Pataki was just as pro -abortion as Cuomo. And I knew many people who were

Reformed and conservative who voted for Pataki just because of the fear of Cuomo winning his seat back.

And my response to them, I can recall, was, don't you realize that if we keep voting into office pro -abortion

Republicans, the most popular platform will continue to be pro -abortion because they realize they don't need the votes of those who want abortion abolished.

That's exactly correct, yes. So Chris says, let's elect

Georgia Right to Life. There's two Right to Life organizations in Georgia. A second one started because they didn't like Georgia Right to Life's strict policy that they would not endorse candidates that saw any exceptions.

So this other, run by Evangelicals, this other pro -life organization will endorse candidates that have exceptions allowing abortion.

So let me encourage people. Abortion is murder, says the word of God.

Amen. And therefore, how in the world can you vote for anybody, whether he believes in a lot of abortions or only a few abortions?

Amen. And let's see here. We have another anonymous listener who claims he or she is remaining anonymous not to offend people close to them in their church.

The issue is, what if you have a candidate, this is very close to the other question, what if you have a candidate that is the only one in the race who is pro -death penalty and the other who is very opposed to it and maybe also in favor of homosexual marriage and many other things that the more conservative candidate opposes, and to vote for the write -in candidate or another candidate that is with certainty going to lose, isn't that just helping to perpetuate all the other evils that exist in the world?

And even if the more conservative candidate is pro -abortion, that we should at least let a fuller spectrum of conservative issues be passed through through his leadership.

Well, voting is a very important thing to me and I'm not going to waste it on voting for abortionists or voting for people who are for gay marriage,

LBGTQ and all those things. I'm not going to vote for them either. No matter what else they believe good, those things are critical issues and that we continue to support them by voting for them.

That we become evangelicals, become the waterboys of the perverts of the pro -abortionists.

We carry their water for them. And as long as they know they can count on us, they'll just keep going farther and farther to the left.

So there's got to be a time when the Christian says, I'm drawing the line right here and I'm not going any farther than this.

This is as far as I'm going. And as long as Christians are not willing to do that and evangelicals get intimidated into voting for people that they have to hold their nose to vote for, we're not going to get anywhere.

We have Ronald in eastern Suffolk County, Long Island who says, thank you so much,

Dr. Moorcraft, for introducing Chris Arnson to Josh Clark. I also visit

Georgia annually and have many friends there whom I am going to enthusiastically urge to vote for Josh.

And my issue is, I am very disturbed by the way many conservative commentators and politicians are reassuring pro -abortionists that if even

Roe v. Wade is overturned, they will comfort them by saying, don't worry, you'll still have the right to have an abortion.

How optimistic are you over the overturning of Roe v. Wade and what will really be accomplished by this?

Well, I think it is a very important obstacle removed in our war against abortion.

That if the Supreme Court votes to overturn Roe v.

Wade by saying that abortion is not to be considered as a constitutional right protected by the federal government, it's an issue of the states.

I think that's a very important decision. And you can see how important it is to the pro -abortionists.

Thousands upon thousands have demonstrated over the past week. And I think it's going to become more violent in their demonstration once the official statement is made by the

Supreme Court. I think this is where the anti -Christians and the pro -abortionists have drawn the line.

No farther. And this, Christians must say, it's not a constitutional right.

We agree with that. It should be back in the states. And hopefully, the red states will have less and less abortions.

And the blue states, hopefully, will have less abortions. But I ask a man named

Greg Singer, who was a great church historian in the late 20th century. He was in his 90s.

And I asked him, how do you see the future in the United States? And this was about 1990.

He said, I see another civil war. He said, but it's not going to be a regional thing.

It's going to be between states. You're going to have some states that are radically liberal.

Some states increasingly conservative. And so the liberal states are going to have less and less productivity.

More and more crime. More and more lawlessness. The Christians in those states will move to red states.

The red states will have more and more productivity. Less crime, more

Christian involvement, less abortions. And then the blue states will be dominated by ND.

I think we haven't seen the last of all this. I think we're just beginning to see the second civil war.

We're already seeing violence. We're already seeing bloodshed. Not by the good guys, but by the bad guys.

But I think that the Roe versus Wade removal will be considered the end of the world by the leftists.

And they're going to be desperate. They're going to fight, literally. They're going to seek to bully the

Supreme Court. They're going to attack churches that are aggressively pro -life, as they already have.

They're going to throw Molotov cocktails into pro -life offices, as they already have.

So I think Christians have got to understand the war has begun. And that we must stand steadfast for life, for the absolute authority of the word of God, no matter what they do to us.

And not to compromise one iota to be inflexible when it comes to truth and justice.

Amen. I mean, do you envision this, actually, when you say Civil War II coming to our nation?

Do you envision this, actually, where the states will rise up with arms?

Well, I hope not. But we're seeing it already. We're seeing the violence.

Portland, Oregon, Seattle, Chicago, Minneapolis, Washington, D .C.,

the burning of police departments, the burning of houses,

Atlanta, Georgia. So we're seeing it. Now, we're not going to do anything evil.

And I don't recommend violence. John Knox said that Christians must stand against tyranny.

And they must not use violence until they've tried everything else first, including patience.

And so I'm not encouraging Christians to be violent. But I am saying that the opposition is going to be increasingly so.

And we've got to be prepared for it. And one important thing that we must work toward is sheriffs in county that support justice and absolute morality.

Sheriffs are going to play a very important role in the shaping of the next few years.

Counties are going to play a very important role. I believe the Founding Fathers intended for the counties to be the most powerful political unit in America.

And I think Christians should try to take over Republican or whatever political parties in those counties.

Elect sheriffs. Elect county commissioners. Because that's the unit of government closest to you.

And we are going to need protection as time goes on.

Yes, rather than having those sheriffs and local police drag us into prison for violating the leftist tyranny's laws that are unjust and unbiblical.

Yes, sir. Let me also answer a question that somebody asked

Joshua a while ago about the Acts passage in Jerusalem where the Christians voluntarily sold all their property and distributed.

I think a good answer to that is they had inside trading information from Jesus in Matthew 24.

That Jesus told them Jerusalem in that generation was going to be burned to the ground. And so they made the mistake of selling all their property.

And then in most of the books of the New Testament Paul had to go around and plead for churches to give money to the poverty -stricken

Christians in Jerusalem. Well, we are out of time, brother. And I want to make sure our listeners have your website

HeritagePresbyterianChurch .com HeritagePresbyterianChurch .com And don't forget about Josh Clark running for Senate.

VoteJosh .com VoteJosh .com I want to thank both of my guests for being so superb today.

I want to thank everybody who listened today. And I want you all to have a very safe and joyful and refreshing and Christ -honoring weekend and Lord's Day.

And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater