Inside the Mind of Manson: Part 2

Welcome to the second part of our cultish true crime series Inside the mind of Manson come join us.

All right, welcome back once again to this cultish

True crime our first one ever the second part of our first ever true crime in just super sleuth

Yeah, it's good to see you that Andrew you were the detective the the

What's that one video game where it's like the LA Noire is that the LA Noire? Yeah, LA Noire where it's like that, but then you do know it's detective work.

That's cool. But yeah, you were the detective We are going to be we are investigating. We're sleuthing detective figuring all this out.

I'm sure detective. Yeah, we also have Robin the mine hunter Dr. Robin Hall, I love that, too

I love that. Can I love it? Can I use that now as a nickname online? Yes Robin the mine hunter

It's always been Robin of the hood in the past. So I like Robin might the mine hunter. So it's funny so that song where we

Charlie was quite the musical artist We haven't gotten quite into the musical aspect of this whole story of the mind of mansion that had a huge play

We'll probably introduce that in this series But of course he's talking about Freud of course and and again, we're kind of delving into not only

Charlie's worldview But what how do we what's the best way to make sense of this whole story that is?

Fascinated. This is the definitive when the definitive cult stories one of the definitive crime stories culture stories

Don't like I said dozens of books Just tons of different icons

You know, it's almost sort of that they sort of I Ron I mean the

Beatles in and of themselves they were such a cultural icon But then you have someone like Charlie Manson.

I remember at one time a Bono from U2 during the early musical career

They did a cover of Helter Skelter and in it he did a live version

That's off the album rattle and hum and he says this is a song start Charlie Manson stole from the Beatles We're stealing it back and that's what he says, right?

So that's just another example of just this all over a week. I figure out how to make sense of it So all that being said let's jump back into the whole story is so the last episode we introduced this crime and So we mentioned

Abigail Folger and we briefly mentioned everyone else But we kind of want to go more in depth of what of who these people were

So we are going to go into their victim ology Yeah So just real quickly because we want to your true crime person

Yes, and it's been a while because I actually went to college initially for criminal justice studies

Oh, wow, and so I was that was a long time ago Like 9 -11 happened right around when

I was going to college a little while back. So years It's always good to define terms.

So real quickly we say victim ology How do we how do we define that sure so victim ology is really it's the study of of the victims of a crime

So we actually we learn a lot like forensic psychologists forensic psychiatrists use what we know about victims and and what happened in a crime to put together the pieces of That crime into a narrative or a story that helps make sense or would make sense to a jury

You know, it helps us kind of clarify motive which is really important And actually when we get, you know into more of the specifics of of the trial that took place following these crimes

We'll talk about how the motive that was introduced by the lead investigator on the case was really groundbreaking and brand -new nobody had ever done it before and We'll kind of talk about a little bit of the psychology involved in that too

So anyway, when to answer your question when anybody's talking about victim ology We're really talking about the study of the victims their behaviors their lifestyle their personality

What places them in the position they are in, you know when the crime takes place? So During the last episode we we talked a little bit more

We talked more in detail about Abigail Folger. So just to review that Abigail Folger.

She died at 25 years old She was she is hypothesized to have been the second victim killed at the

Cielo Drive house With most people agreeing that Stephen Parent was the first victim killed out on the lawn before the perpetrators entered the house

So Abigail was living with her friend Sharon Tate or Sharon Tate Polanski who was eight months pregnant at the time with her first child a boy and Sharon was 26 years old.

So we've got Abigail and Sharon both extremely young Abigail We had we mentioned previously.

She is the heiress to the Folger coffee fortune And every time I say that I just want to sing the

Folger theme song So anyway, that was her she she had a lot of money and she was dating the third victim

Believed to have been killed that night Wojciech Frykowski, so he was a friend of Roman Polanski's insurance.

He was a Wealthy or from a wealthy Polish family And he was staying with the

Polanski's at that time at the Cielo Drive address. So he was dating Abigail Folger And I don't know if I meant he was 32.

So we've got Stephen Parent who was 18 Abigail Folger who is 25

Sharon Tate 26 and Wojciech who was 32 the

Fourth person now believed to have been killed that evening was a man named JC bring

So he was 35 years old that night and he was a very good friend of Sharon Tate's and Roman Polanski's but but more specifically

Sharon they had actually had a relationship a romantic relationship with each other previously and JC bring was very well known in the

Hollywood community. He owned a salon And so, you know, he was working on A lot of other actors

In that time period is very well known within the Hollywood community Yeah, and he and Sharon, you know by all accounts had a very special close intimate relationship a very strong friendship and he was also at the

Cielo Drive house that evening, so The last person to be killed that evening was

Sharon Tate Who was like we said before eight months pregnant at the time with her first child?

And you know, we got into some of the details of the crime when Andrew read the police report last time, but it was

Particularly gruesome these these were not Sniper shots that were taken, you know a mile away.

These were up -close and personal attacks stabbings gunshot wounds at close range and But even like for example there there are particular

Night type of arts of knife fighting there's I can't remember the name of it But there's a there's a

Filipino type of knife fighting. That's very that's very precision very accurate if you look at how special forces when they want to Dispatch they want to go ahead and disable someone and get rid of them.

It's very quick and very precise You're you're you're really kind of looking at a bunch of really hippies, right?

That were really under the influence of this cult leader. So their expertise was was not

Was not weapon was not weaponry, right? So you're really kind of dealing with that. They're just it's right

Right. It's frenzied. It's not it's calculated, but it's chaotic. It isn't right the work of a trained killer

That it's the work of untrained killers who are being manipulated by their cult leader Yeah, Charles Manson there and there are other things that happen to Is that when we start to unravel to a lot of a lot of the world views of Manson and really not just the physical psychological aspect but really the spiritual aspect of What they were involved in and how

Charlie Manson what he was really kind of tapped and sourced into was it just his Sociological environment was he just a byproduct of his upbringing which made him to do the things they did or was there something deeper?

so one of the things to take into account is that when When when I've waited for Towski when he was

Confronted by Tex Watson. He when he asked him who he is who he was to Watson said

I am the devil I'm here to do the devil's business right very well known. Yeah, right. So did he just say that or was he?

Was there something deeper going on? That's a question. We have to ask and one other thing too. We're looking at 1960s

LA so you look up for example LA right now and especially it's also interesting given current circumstances

With LA being in lockdown. LA is such a huge giant Metropolis and it was kind of really known for just all the smog everywhere in the

LAX and how crowded it is all the time But now that skyline is completely clear with with all the lockdown stuff.

It was a lot wider environment I mean versus back then. Mm -hmm So what you'll see though is that back then you didn't really have all the

Instagram accounts Twitter all your social media followings and stuff like that you really LA and Hollywood at that time was a really a lot closer knit everything what it was in a lot was in close quarters with each other and that's all that's honestly one of the

Reasons to why? Charlie being the type person these influences we get into it was able to really get in contact with Certain people of high influence that land up leading up to this.

So when you look at someone for example The hairstylist he was involved and he had a very close relationship with Sharon Tate He is he's a celebrity hairstylist, there's a probably about a lot of other celebrities

They're all walking together all hobnobbing together kind of doing their thing. That was just the environment at the time.

Yeah, so All right. So what we want to do is so we kind of have the understanding of this is this is who they were

This is what happened to them and how we kind of piece those things together Was there anything else we want to kind of delve into any other thoughts on the crime?

We kind of went we did again We're covering just a little bit of the victims who they are the victim ology anything else we want to cover before I kind of jump back into The involvement of Charlie and where he went from here as far as his criminal lifestyle, which led him up to that well,

I think it's probably important that we mention who who is Who was originally hypothesized and now it's generally just agreed as fact.

Um, who was there and committed these murders, right? I think it's really really important and it speaks to the uniqueness of this crime so Charles Manson while he was the the puppet master the idea, you know

Cultivator and giver here. He was not present for this crime And there are lots of accounts

I even think that Quentin Tarantino does a fabulous job and once upon a time once upon a time in Hollywood In in kind of putting together this idea that the girls were directed by Charlie to do whatever text told them to do

Yes, and that was you know, that was really the directive and I think you know Even in the police reports you kind of see that hypothesis come out

With Steven parents, he would kind of the wrong place the wrong time if he hadn't been there that night

You know, we can kind of hypothesize that he would would have still been alive, right? It wasn't that they went there with the intent or express intent to kill

Abigail Folger and Sharon Tate They went there with the intent to kill who was ever in that house

Yeah, it was in there and that's what they did So but it is really important that that we all understand that Charlie was not there that night

Physically, he was not physically there that night. So the people that committed these homicides were

Charles Tex Watson Susan Atkins Patricia Krenwinkel and Linda Kasabian So well once we get into the psychology and the the dynamics of the actual family the cult the family

We'll talk a lot more about each one of their individual psychological makeups But I think it's really important before we leave the crime that everybody understands

Charles Manson when you think of the crime you think of his face, right? Yes But he wasn't there that night so which makes this a unique crime

And you know, we'll talk more about that and when we get to the trial, but it makes Prosecuting him really interesting.

Yes, right and one other thing to note and we'll go ahead and mention this too Is that it's this is the really the main crime that's kind of centered around and again once upon a time in Hollywood They kind of focused in on on The this this whole particular crime the

Cielo Drive We're gonna drive murders, but that's not the only murder that was really known for so the day after the murders of the

Tate Polanski home Manson he moved to an onto another home and Los Feliz and he and basically the lives of it was a la

Bianca murders So tell us just a little bit about That because that took place right afterwards and that's one of the things too

These two murders put together is what really spiked the panic these two, but wasn't just that murders these two back -to -back, right?

so and and I think it's important to to note that the in these two crimes the la

Bianca murders and the Tate Polanski murders Were not connected.

They took place in different Criminal jurisdictions so it was not until later in the

Investigation that the connection between the two crimes was even made which really stalled the investigation out

And that was really a matter of jurisdiction At the time the two departments didn't have to report to one another.

So they didn't and So anyway, and you had to talk a little bit about the la Bianca murders

So those occurred on the night of August 10th 1969 So one day after the

Tate Polanski murders And the victims in that crime were Lino la

Bianca He was 44 years old and he was the husband to the second victim Rosemary la

Bianca and he owned a grocery store. He was a proprietor so his wife Rosemary la

Bianca was 38 at the time of her murder and their house Their Los Feliz house was targeted by Manson Specifically, so this crime is a little bit different with regards to Who was present and we'll talk about that in terms of perpetrators?

Charlie was actually at this house and he participated in Binding restraining the la

Bianca as he tied them up He did however leave the house prior to their murders.

So again, he wasn't there when the actual

Well, not when the when the ultimate crime was committed. He was he participated physically in the la Bianca crimes like he did not in the

Tate crime, but he had he had left again and I I think that really speaks to kind of his

Whole overall quality as a psychopath. He's always thinking two or three steps ahead and When I try and conceptualize

Charlie in his mind, I can imagine him thinking. Well, how are they gonna pin this on me? I wasn't even there.

Yeah, so Well, it's also it's trust knowing that this is like I know my followers are going to do this

So I don't even have to second -guess No, if ands or buts that they're gonna kill them exactly the way that I told them to well

And he already knows that's true because it happened the night before. Yep, right? I mean so imagine the the the ego rush

The adrenaline rush that you're feeling as the leader of this cult I mean, of course, he's not calling his family occult, but that's what it is

And these people Literally by the word of his mouth. Yeah did this heinous thing?

I mean what a high what an absolute rush as a manipulative manipulative leader of a group of people.

I mean you're feeling invincible Untouchable at this point and he knows he doesn't have to be the one to pull the trigger or to you know

Plunge the blade. Mm -hmm. All he has to do is give the word. So I think it really speaks to his grandiosity that Narcissistic ego and just what he must have been experiencing in that point the adrenaline

He must have been experiencing knowing all he has to do is give the word and this happens. Yes I'm speaking of thinking ahead

I just want to mention one thing that happened this crime and we won't really kind of give any details until we expand this in later on this series, but This is one of the things that happened is that and again, this is if you have kids around, you know

This is a true crime series. We've given words before we're talking about Sin, we're talking about crime. We're talking about murder

So this like I said, Andy Wilson said this world is rated R you have to make note of that but after they were murdered they took their blood and they wrote on death to pigs on the refrigerator as We know we are right now at by time this who knows where we will be by the time the series gets released

We there is so much unprecedented racial tension and we all know What that references to As far as pigs are concerned and you don't

I don't need to give any description, you know What what that is? So there's reason intent behind why Charlie did that?

We'll expand upon that but then again that was part of the crime writing pigs and blood on the refrigerator

So he knew people would see that why did he do that? Stay tuned for the upcoming episodes.

Yeah, so What we want to go ahead and do let's go ahead and jump back in now that we kind of gone into these

Crimes more in depth. We're kind of back there kind of filling in some more details So Charlie we are we've talked some about his adolescence

Doing some sort of misdemeanors stealing $100 buying some food Taking that to the next level where he is holding a razor blade up to a boy's throat

Sodomizes him and now he's getting transferred out of a juvenile facility to different facilities

And so it's as we said there just seemed to be this continual Really?

He was always Choosing a lifestyle of crime. It's what he knew.

It's really where he seemed to be able to function and Operate, so let's go ahead and just jump into this kind of the continued timeline of where?

He was so yeah As we talked about he went from after he'd commit that horrific act all of a sudden he flipped around his personality

Said in the last episode he became their ideal person. They bought a hook line and sinker

So his continued life of his life of crime continued. What's interesting too. Is that in 1955

Manson? he married a Rosalie Willis she was a waitress from Wheeling and the couple actually produced a child

Charles Manson jr. And so he worked as a parking lot attendant as a busboy and he also stole cars

So he thought he was going on the straight and narrow But then all of a sudden he's back there right so in October it says in October that year he was arrested for Auto theft and he is set into five years probation

And then it says arrested for a second time for driving hot cars interstate in September 1955

Manson got off easy with yeah five years probation Same bullet point here, and then he celebrates So he celebrated by skipping a court date in Florida on pending charges of auto theft and his probation

Was promptly revoked picked and he was picked up in Indianapolis on March 14th 1956 where he sent to federal prison at Terminal Island, California winning

Pearl on September 30th 1958 so here's what's interesting too, and maybe you can delve into this

Robin is that Okay, so we talked about his younger adolescent what he stood so 14 years old is when he did his first sort of petty theft

And so by is it by the time he was 26 he had spent 14 years of his life and In some sort of form of custody or probation or juvenile hall kind of institution yes

So you think that's more than half of that's all singing more than half this so you think about the typical like a no the typical normal upbringing you have the

Adolescents going into puberty all the way up to adulthood when you're 18 and the usual things that happens in a normal family of high

So just high school graduation going to college prom prom all the basic Things that we either kind of think and identify with as far as what will be the quote -unquote normal expectations or at least normal before Yes right, so not so not only that you have again the relationship of abandonment and this childhood trauma, but Dealing with think about right now someone with all the different juvenile and sort of this sort of this trouble with prison

How do you think that affected his psyche that many years in this particular environment either in custody or probation?

Well, I think like you know in a word poorly I think it really impacted him from from a typical viewpoint very poorly

From his viewpoint it probably helped him feel Much more capable of adapting to his surroundings

So he didn't really have primary caregivers outside of these institutions that were that were there for I mean

There's a lot of information about an uncle who who tried to take a little bit of care of him You know when

Charlie's mom really showed no interest in it But he didn't have a really good core group of caregivers before he went into these institutions

And so when he went in you can imagine who then became his primary influences, right?

So these are individuals that are practiced and not great because they're all caught right

But practiced at conning people Manipulating people so he starts to learn those ropes so to speak and really

I mean in my opinion This is where he would develop that ability to chameleon so well

You know It's all reinforced and once you learn that you can lie and manipulate to give people what they want and then you get what you want

Again you see like people as you know a means to an end. So yeah in terms of His overall psychology

My guess is that when he started to feel important You know in within the context of an institution

So at you know, he does this whole song and dance and now he's the model ideal

Inmates right and I that's not what they would have called him at this reform school, but You know for lack of a better word.

That's really what he was a little bit. Yeah Reformed right. So at least he gave that that appearance of being reformed.

So He starts to feel important and and this is a person who has never ever

Felt importance not even to his mother, right? Andrew and I were just reading on on the break that at one point his mother

Allegedly sold him for a pitcher of beer as a child as a child So, I mean that's kind of what we're dealing with in terms of how you know

How he who taught him and how how he learned the value of people So, you know that was really just reinforced throughout his time in institutions.

He learned how to be a criminal He learned how to manipulate people To give him what he wanted and he got really good at it

Yeah, absolutely and so weren't it so when you talk about two we're talking about education and Usually a lot of times people think about okay, how do we make that?

How do we make someone a better person? How do we make society better? We just need to have more education need to educate them more and There's a path.

I think it's 40 bockham says, you know, someone's good at Stud they're there. They don't have a changed heart. They're stealing hubcaps.

You give them educated. They're gonna steal the whole car Yeah, you know And that's the point and so with Charlie, you'll see that there's certain programs in these prisons where they're trying to quote -unquote reform the people.

Let's get them educated Let's teach them classes. Let's do these particular things but again, Charles Manson is someone that is made in the image of God and You know the thing that was amazing to in the

Bible It talks about and such were some of you and talks about all these different categories of people that will not fit into the kingdom But you have people from the beauty of the

Gospels that you have people that are safe from every tongue tribe and nation and That while your past may explain you it doesn't define you and that's a huge thing your

Danny's in Christ And that's the beauty of the Gospels but what's interesting coming back to Charles Manson is that one of the things that when the books that he got really influenced by while he was in prison

Was how to win friends and influence people by Dale Carnegie, right? That's one of the most popular books in self -improvement self -development so one of the

I'll just say one thing about the book, which is very interesting is that this is something that really kind of gave almost reinforced something that Charlie and in many aspects was already doing but one of the things that Dale Carnegie talks about in this book is to introduce

Inspires someone to do like get someone to do what you want to do but sort of in Inception plant the idea that this was what they wanted to do all along So they really think this is me choosing to do this, but there's subtle steps of undue influence, right?

Which one that's that's that you'll see that as far as someone who's a narcissist and a psychopath

Yeah, do that to manipulate people, but that's also just again. That's one of the manipulative tactics of the cults

They have a set in which they want to get people to do something with undue influence in a group think but people think oh

I'm just gonna go ahead and do this not realizing that this is just sort of things that were set in motion, right?

So you had a how to win friends and influence people. That was a big aspect of it So one of the things that's incredibly interesting too is that he continued this life of crime

So he ended up being divorced and his ex -wife retained custody of the child and then

Manson was released on parole And what happened after he went through all this reforming and everything else?

He became a pimp. Yeah in Southern, California So this is where this is just one of those stories where as much as I've studied

Manson I've told you I mean so now with reading his books when I hear a quote from him. I hear it in his voice

Oh, yeah And if for someone who was nowhere near even being born or existing when

Charlie was alive. That's just incredibly intriguing the fact that that's a type of personality influence that he had so on May 1st 1969 is that he was jailed in Los Angeles on charges of forging and cashing a

US Treasury check for $37 .50 like of a small amount, right?

So I have a theory on why that happened and I think the author of the book in which I got this from has a

Theory as well. So he was interrogated by Secret Service agents according to and according to several testimonies

Charlie he swallowed the check when Secret Service agents momentarily had their backs turned and from what

I understood There was something that he did to get them to turn their backs in which he swallowed the check

Oh, wow, once more and also he escaped with probation swiftly, which was swiftly Revoked with its

April 1960 arrest for pimping and transporting whores interstate or prostitutes so Yeah, quite a life of Crime right and just non -stop just totally calculated and you see this so much we talked in the last episode

We tried to set the stage a little bit for you know, what? Psychologists what people who work clinically in mental health?

how they describe psychopathy and sociopathy When you're working with individuals like this, you know criminal narcissists

You have to be on your toes in a way that you don't in any other population because they are constantly grooming you

They are constantly manipulating you. I have an example, you know, even in my own clinical practice

I kind of always refer back to my time at the State Hospital because it was such an integral part of my training but I was there during the

Clinton Trump race to the White House and One of the residents that was on the sexually violent predator unit asked me what my political affiliation was one day

Which I responded, you know curtly with that's none of your business and I'm not gonna tell you

And then two or three minutes later. I mean completely diverted away from that question

He asked me an anecdotal question That would have aligned me with as either somebody on the left or the right

Okay, so very calculated and and something that had I not been

Very very attuned to like the possibility of him trying to groom me. I would have missed completely

But that kind of thing. Okay, I'm gonna ask you this and you're not gonna give it to me So, how am I gonna get the information about you that I want?

Yeah, and you see that with Charlie all I mean all over the place and I it's so fascinating that in this interaction with a

Secret Service agent. He distracts them long enough to swallow the check. Yeah. I mean, it's just such a classic

Psychopath and not only that. I mean he found plenty of ways to get by I mean, in fact, it was $37 .50,

right? So I don't think in that particular instance and I believe the author that I read when he was expounding upon this is that This was more about the thrill of doing it versus the money

And also even the possibility that this he could have actually Had that like he had like his main thing was to say

I mean it could have been I don't remember when it exactly after reading whenever this book, but the fact that I It was able to manipulate these circuit

Secret Service agents That's worth a whole lot more as far as influence and getting people to follow you than $37 and 50 cents

Imagine what that does to the ego, right? like I just bested outsmarted a tricked these, you know educated or trained the best of the best the best of the best, right and And it just feeds into that like grandiosity that self idolization, you know that I am

God kind of concept Which we see all the way through chart and like Charlie's the dogma that he created in in his religion

You know that yeah, you know ultimately ended up promoting It I mean he called himself

Jesus multiple times. Yeah, which is something we see across a lot of cults, right?

and what so what you end up seeing and won't go and so he was just sort of again all over the place the life of Crime where a lot of you mentioning on his worldview and ideas and philosophies

It wasn't just Dale Carnegie But there's a couple other things that came into play and listen, let's go ahead and jump into that So a lot of things took place when he was uh, there's a he got transferred in 1961

He was transferred to a federal penitentiary at McNeil Island in Washington. And at that time he got a hold of Scientology in fact he was

Now now and he talked extensively about his influence influences of that forget the particular book.

It wasn't Dianetics I think it was some sort of pamphlet or booklet Of that what he got but he got extensively influenced by L.

Ron Hubbard, right and his sorts of thinking well, and he also Made Proclamations that this is hearsay because I'm not sure that he ever went on record saying it but his followers the members of the family

Would say that he kind of touted that he you know He was he was clear like he had made it to that ultimate whatever beta level

That you can reach in Scientology and he did it on his own and he did it in prison So in just to go to clarify to you what happens after you become clear according to Scientologists is then you become an operating

Satan and then you learn how to manipulate matter energy space and time Yes, so that would be right and also see how his worldview and is is really theology

Affected these murders talking about theology kills people. So one of the things that I noticed too This is just notice.

I took down as I was kind of reading studying researching for this episode is that He adopted the aspect of L.

Ron Hubbard's teachings that led him the ability That sort of all it's again all these things always enhances ability to control and manipulate others

So he would see for example that many potential prostitutes have terrible self -images Telling such girls that they didn't have to be crippled by the past that they were immortal spares

Temporary temporarily trapped in their bodies and they were basically good and capable of achieving anything

These could be powerful recruitment techniques And so sure enough The three people out of all the people aside from Tex Watson all the people who are part of the both the

The Cielo Drive murders and also the La Bianca murders. They are all female aside from Tex Watson yeah, so you have that and not only that you also have the majority of the

Manson cult being female as well to and that had to do with Charlie's ability to Manipulate right?

Yeah, most of the family members quote -unquote were were women Mm -hmm.

Yes, and so one of the things too, is that he got really into Into music.

Yeah, that's where he got introduced. In fact It was there that he and I'll go into a second too

But I believe he was there in prison He was in a prison cell and that's where he first started hearing the music from the

Beatles playing and that's Inside prison there and so that's what began to figure out.

Okay, who are they? Oh, they're famous They're on this precedent level and his whole thing was wanting to be known wanting to be popular wanting to do all those things

Right that grandiosity. Yeah that grandiosity. So sure enough now all of a sudden he wants to it's not just enough to manipulate others

Now to enhance my ego now I want to be able to do it through music and then he got influenced enough through the

Beatles, right? He did Specifically through a song titled helter -skelter, which

I wish we could play but I know we can't so yeah Think about it to like psychologically in terms of being somebody who's grown up in this

I wouldn't even say broken household non household right being educated by the prison system or boys homes his whole life

Trying to search for meaning and finally finding music a way to communicate your soul and express it in a way

Where others can relate to you to actually try to make sense to you So I think in his music he always gave a little bit about himself away, right, you know, and he was actually able to you

Express himself in ways that he never could before and to be vulnerable in ways He never could before but at the same time use the vulnerability as a way and a method to actually make people

You know get attracted to him. I trust and then manipulate them, right? Yeah, and it's very interesting because a lot of what

I've read like he his form of preaching so to speak was really through playing The guitar and singing.

Yeah spoken word very much very much so and and you do People could you know, this has been true of music since the beginning of music, you know, we connect with music

It almost acts like that security blanket. I get to be vulnerable here, but not directly related to myself

You know power in the vulnerability with music. There is a huge power there And I think we can bring that, you know back to what

God says about music, you know It makes sense that we have this emotional connection to it And I think it's important to what you you briefly mentioned

Jerry the Beatles fame and success was Unprecedented. I mean

Elvis was Huge, but the Beatles I mean they eclipsed him they eclipsed and which made him really angry actually

So and as a also a true Beatles fan and Beatle maniac myself I often imagine myself being one that would faint, you know at the sight of John Paul and Ringo My middle name is

Lennon after John Lennon So The these men came out of nowhere.

They took the entire world by storm So it's this very appealing

Kind of process that he's watching happen. And so Charlie starts internalizing

Yeah, well, I could be this way and it really feeds into his ego in his this idea of self -worth

Yeah, so it's also interesting to just another little Tibetan fact It's like there's so many like famous people that he comes in close quarters with and this is the culture at the time because everyone

Was just so much more closer knit And so and again Charlie just had this ability to kind of find something that he wanted so he had this desire to know music

And so he ends up befriending a guy in prison known as Alvin Karpis Or they call him

Alvin creepy car Karpis and so this was crazy. So he was kind of known as the

FBI And in fact, there's a movie that came out There's four different people there were it was himself a pretty boy

Floyd and a guy and babyface Nelson But there's another guy named John Dillinger and that John Dillinger was played by Johnny Depp in the movie public enemies

So there was the these bank robberies though It's really helped with the formulation of the

FBI And the I think the FBI the director of the time was Purvis Ellison that Christian Bale played

But what you end up finding out is that he was also a magician and he played the steel guitar in prison and so Charlie befriended him and He got into talking about Philosophy and Scientology and so he got in all these in -depth discussions

But it was in that time that he really kind of learned and least in many ways I would say probably got him to do what he wanted probably applying

Dale Carnegie to Creepy Alvin creepy Karpis, but it's just that the fat mean it's just fascinating that that Charles Manson when the notorious gang killers in American history also become be friends and learns music

From and one of the most notorious gangsters in American history Wow, he's right up there right and he learns music from them by listening to the

Beatles which he then uses one of their songs Which is part of his crime, right?

It's just How this all interconnect it really is and we haven't talked at all yet about his connection with Dennis Wilson, but we'll get into that too

Again he and it isn't just who like the influential people that knew

Charlie. It's like The influential people that knew the victims and so I mean,

I think Jack Nicholson was at the trial We said that JC bring was this Hollywood stylist.

They knew Everybody at the time Joan Didion. I was when Jerry and I were talking about this episode

I was telling him about A group of essays that Joan Didion wrote around these crime called the white album which is where helter -skelter is from and she actually

Provided and I'm not gonna butcher it because I can't remember which defendant she actually

Was in contact with but she ended up buying the dress for her to testify And you know at the time she was kind of this no -name author, but I mean now she's a household name

We've really got a lot of very famous people that are involved in this story and it makes it

I think that that's part of the allure of it It makes it even more fascinating to really read through but helter -skelter

Really became the name for the kind of apocalyptic Future that Charlie was telling his followers about yes, and we had talked about this

We had an episode a couple of episodes back with Gary DeMar and he was talking a little bit about not only did

Charlie Manson use how to win friends and influence people at Dale Carnegie and also he was into Scientology and There's a couple other different books that he was really into one of them

It was there was a really popular novel was a book called stranger in a strange land

And this book it's about this guy Mike he founds his own faith and Experiences and again, this is a mature content

But he experiences group sex using psychic powers to make enemies disappear and suffers a martyr death and martyrs death and returns in spirit form

So my goodness. Yeah, so again what you'll see is that I think a lot when things evolve later on at spawn ranch because you you see also the use of That like group sex was one of the big aspects of even we're almost like a religious and spiritual ritual being

I'm part of the family. Yeah, but not only that we'll dive into their extensive use of LSD and psychedelics which was huge in how

Manson used all this to manipulate right to suggest ideas to them to kind of create these

Pseudo farce religious experiences that were really just the result of that the chemical reactions that happen when you eat poison

Like that in your in your body but how powerful it was to his followers and I think to it's really important that we focus on his use of sex is

This way of grooming and cultivating his family members. Yes You know women

In in the secular world and I think even within A Christian worldview

Women and men are built differently. Yes women view sex differently than men. They experience it differently than men and so this extremely vulnerable intimate act is now occurring between group leader and follower which automatically cultivates a

Spirit of trust as long as it's consensual, right? So and you know for the most part that that at least that's what everybody within the family would say

You couldn't become a family member if you didn't participate in sex with Charlie so In terms of making sure that he was able to assert his influence psychologically,

I mean it was genius to do that right and it's also right in the middle of this cultural movement of You know free sex love, you know in rock and roll this like rebellion away from Kind of the

Christian ideals that had permeated Culture and society at least in the United States up until that point

Yeah, and what I meant to say earlier because I was talking about Gary DeMar But in the same way how even though it was somewhat at that time in some of the late 1960s

Similar today is sort of like an abandoned Christian culture in many ways. This is just done in a different culture different form

And we're kind of doing the same thing We just have all the technology to record it with our with our phones and videos and see it through social media

But it was in regards to the fact that not only would be Charlie would be

People always who are made in the image of God they borrow from the Christian worldview in order to make sense of their own That's true.

But Charlie also borrowed from the Christian worldview to help make his own twisted ideology

So not only did he used like I said Dale Carnegie how to win friends and influence people

This strange book on psychedelics and group sex. He also was a big fan of the

Bible He was and I can we talk about theology matters He utilized the

Bible in order to manipulate people into different apocalyptic Helter Skelter He used revelation in order to give an apocalyptic vision of what this race war was going to be

And we'll talk more about that later on as we go which also is connected back to Back to the

La Bianca murders, right? specifically revelation 9 so You know when we get more into the details of what like his actual

Ideology and what he was telling people, you know was gonna happen we can maybe Jerry we can read through that scripture just to kind of give everybody

I'm like a background but You know and this is true. I think I mean

Jerry is the cult You guys is the cultish experts It's not uncommon it for cult leaders to take bits and pieces

Yes of scripture and manipulate them right you their own ends, right and you see that all over the place with Charlie You know

God does reveal to us like an apocalyptic scene, right?

so and I think that's one of the things that makes cults so dangerous is this taking of what is true and distorting it so much

But because you know, it's kind of founded in this like inkling of truth over here

You've got that people to initially buy into it There's always something that you have to do with Jesus He's the most influential and famous person in all of history like all history revolves around him

So Manson with his ego, how do you get bigger than the Beatles? Oh, what? Oh, wait, wait The Beatles are actually singing about me, right?

You know, I'm Jesus So we see the same thing with cults all throughout history. They have to do something with Jesus to make themselves

God yeah, and it's one of those things to in the same way when we initially looked at a series of Jonestown and we kind of Look at all the different variables and play.

There's a lot of similarities between Jim Jones and Charles Manson Yes, where Jim Jones use a lot of issues at the time that were legitimate

Talking about all the different racial divides and regarding the civil rights movement In fact in this just, you know a little tidbit like in the state of Illinois, for example,

I mean Jim Jones did virtuous things Illinois and my mind's running a blank where he was initially

Indiana. Yeah, you'll know Indiana Yeah, no in Indiana in that he was the first person in the state of Indiana to adopt a black child

Which is Jim Jones jr. And so he did different things where I think in many times he did

Things that were standing up for things that were in just what happened then But then he ended up having this idea where he kind of twisted into his ideology of where he would use the

Bible But then he twists into his idea of divine Economic socialism again, if you haven't checked it out go to one from your episodes or Jones color glasses

We'll get into that. But with that being said he what he did is that he took Current events back then and he started this movement out of uncertainty

Yeah, and so you and that's exactly what Charlie Manson did as well, too And I think one of the parallels why this is the important right now

I again as we record this episode as we wrap things up here is that we are in the middle of just Very uncertain times 2020 has been an obviously a very wild ride

Racial tensions are through the roof. Unlike anything I've ever seen before And and we have to walk the line.

Okay, how do we live as Christians? How do we how do we get the gospel out there? How do we speak into this thing in a way?

That's biblical. How do we how do we actually look at real biblical justice and look into this because there's a vacuum

Right now that if we don't as Christians Do I just matter because if we don't as Christians jump into this and speak into this and be salt and be light

And just for example, we're talking we'll talk in this more as we expand in the series But the role of LSD and psychedelics played a huge huge role right now the ideas of psychedelics

DMT and all the sorts of things is through the roof Netflix just released a documentary about the

Propagating the all the wonderful aspects and ideas of LSD and how it's a good and wonderful thing, right?

Well, and actually even right now like in like the psychology forefront well, it would it would technically be psychiatry like the medical study of psychological behavior

We're using Ella. We're using not LSD but forms of Hallucinogens that you would categorize like that.

Yeah to treat things like post -traumatic stress disorder panic disorders anxiety disorders

And lots and lots of research is coming out about these pseudo religious experiences that help free people

For you know, so again, we're trying to mimic, you know, we're chasing after these false gods

You know looking for joy and peace and areas, you know from idols that are made of clay that can't return what we need from them

But yeah, we're kind of seeing a resurgence of that even in like the clinical world right now we've got it's a relatively new treatment to Treat chronic anxiety and depression with ketamine and for those of you that aren't you know familiar with what that is

It is a an animal tranquilizer. So You know, we're we're really exploring all sorts of which is crazy because I knew a guy in college and him and his buddies like somewhere in the some back alley as they took cat tranquilizers and That was like I can't believe

I actually did this now. You're mentioning. It's this is something that's being considered You know, I know there's several practices psychiatric practices here even in the valley that that do it and the

Treatments are Legal, you know, these practitioners aren't doing anything illegal or immoral according to their, you know, ethic standards

But it's just quite interesting. They're trying to replicate this Yeah, you know this experience that we call, you know rebirth in Christ a new heart in Christ you know with false pseudo religious experiences, you know finding yourself and you talk to anybody who's

Experimented with those kinds of mind -altering drugs. I have a past myself And you do experience a very interesting out -of -body spiritual kind of thing and as a

Christian now I wasn't then I Understand what I was searching for and I understand

Why it was so enticing and intoxicating to to go into that area

But again, you know, we're talking about false gods, you know, an idol can't return what we need

I'm only only the Lord can do that. So come like the idol. Yeah, right Yeah and so like I said wrap things up here what we're saying where we're trying to reiterate to is that even kind of leading up to this point and There's that there's a huge parallel right now with all the elements that made

The Manson murders such a big thing the mind demands and all the presence are there Not only all things you mentioned to you, but even the mental health epidemic that's in place right now, but even now even expedited given current circumstances

Not only that brokenness in the home, which which you saw exemplified in Charlie's upbringing, right?

So you have that there and that's why you know You want to be able to bring the gospel into the situation if we explored the mind of Manson so The last point we'll make just a little historical account and this will kind of go into the next part of our series as we kind of explore

What led up to that horrific night in August at 1969 so on March 21st 1967

Manson he was paroled and And it was actually over and this is what's interesting too.

It was against it was over his own objections He didn't want to be paroled. So it's almost that he had a

Stockholm syndrome effect to that prison life I mean, I I learned I mean

I learned the guitar from this notorious Gangster he was part of the original four which helped formulate the

FBI. So that was life. Yeah, I mean, it's what's familiar And it's also where he had like felt important And you know,

I have I don't know if this is true I don't think that anyone could know what what's actually true But a part of me hopes that even

Charlie had some You know glimpse into I'm not safe out there.

You know, and I Far be it for me to actually, you know speculate about that But I do find it very interesting from a psychological point of view that he actually

Petitioned against his own parole. Yes It's like he never had a father.

He never had a mother but the prison always cooked his meals They clothed him. They washed his clothes. They took care of him in a way.

He had never been taken care of They gave him the only family that he had ever known and I think

When we actually really start getting into what Manson believed in terms of his theology and his

Cultivation of the family it makes perfect sense that that's what they were called, right? He was in search of that family.

Yes. So what happened? Leading up to the formulation of the family which will jump into our in our next series

Is that so against his will he was released from Terminal Island in March? 1967 at that's this time.

He's 32 years old and he was pretty much looking at an empty future and at that time he just sort of wandered and made his way to the

Height Ashbury District in San Francisco, and that's where Not only did he work to this that where the family assembled the cultural environment of that was known in 1967 as a summer of love

So that's something that we won't we'll delve into in our next series So and that's also where he met

Gary Hinman who is who ultimately introduced him to Dennis Wilson of the Beach Boys I know it's just it's just so full of everything so full of all mystique and intrigue all the good stuff

So we're gonna continue this conversation We have a new after show that we want you all to check out and be part of so Andrew and I are gonna hang

Out for a little bit after this podcast We're gonna just have sort of a post Discussion about everything and so I'm super excited for this as I always as I always say

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Financial support once you make this a full -time vocation, which is what we want to do We'll be able to expand that more so we're only limited

We are limited right now by your support and I know it's uncertain out there economically

But we need this ministry to be salt light as we described the environments right now We need to be able to preach that get the gospel into all these different issues not just the cults, but the issue of justice the issue of How do we make sense of all the racial tensions we have to be able to look at that and I'll analyze it biblically

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So we will jump into this series next time as we explore the mind of Manson 1967 the summer of love the formulation of this family spawn ranch and everything else that entails