James White & Jeff Durbin respond to Trent Horn of Sola Scriptura (Part II)

Apologia Studios

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

00:01

Non -rockabodas must stop. I don't want to rock the boat. I want to sink it

00:08

Are you gonna bark all day little doggie, or are you gonna bite? We're being delusional. Delusional?

00:15

Yeah, delusional is okay in your worldview. I'm an animal. You don't chastise chickens for being delusional. You don't chastise pigs for being delusional.

00:21

So you calling me delusional using your worldview is perfectly okay. It doesn't really hurt It's hung up on me!

00:28

YES! Desperate times call for faithful men and not for careful men

00:37

The careful men come later and write the biographies of the faithful men lauding them for their courage

00:45

Go into all the world and make disciples. Not go into the world and make buddies. Not to make brosives.

00:51

Right. Don't go into the world and make homies. Disciples. I got a bit of a jiggle neck

00:58

That's a joke pastor. When we have the real message of truth, we cannot let somebody say they're speaking truth when they're not

01:22

Welcome back everybody to another episode of Apologia Radio. Welcome back everybody

01:28

This is the gospel heard around the world. I am Pastor Jeff Durbin. They call me the ninja and Let's see what he's gonna set here.

01:37

Sorry. I'm just trying to get back in the swing of things here You know what it is? It's the Mac. That's what it is.

01:42

I'm gonna blame it on the Mac Just kidding Back from our missions trip.

01:48

We had to the Republic of Ireland Northern Ireland Scotland for end abortion now some amazing things happen there.

01:57

We are so excited to share with you We will share all that information with you guys probably the next episode Pastor Luke and I will just be in prayer for people of God In the

02:07

UK in the Republic all the work that we're doing there God has done some amazing things to raise up churches now to bring the gospel into conflict with the issue of abortion

02:16

Over again some of the common practices and methodologies of the typical pro -life Kind of neutral perspective

02:22

God's raising up the churches to actually engage this issue Standing on the Word of God so powerful stuff happening

02:27

Very humbling very sobering to see what God has done through the work of end abortion now I want to just at least say this now.

02:33

I've been wanting to make sure I say this publicly You'll understand more why I'm saying what

02:39

I'm saying when we get a chance to share the full details as What the Lord is doing through our ministry in those places, but I wanted to say a real genuine

02:48

Thank you to everybody who gave towards the work of end abortion now, not this shit

02:53

Not just this past year, but also the previous years there were things Happening through our work even not just in our own country, but especially

03:02

Over there is when I'm pointing out now that we weren't even really aware of in that was the

03:07

God was really pulling together And it's brought a lot of fruit and the result of it

03:12

Lord willing but the way that everything's happening right now will be so many lives saved and transformed

03:18

Because of of this mission and none of that would have been possible without your help without your giving So thank you guys very very much.

03:25

I am in the studio today You see once again with Pastor James White elder at Apologia Church and dr.

03:31

James White You know him from Alpha Omega Ministries AOMIN AOMIN .org

03:37

is where you go for the website and Alpha Omega Ministries on YouTube and on Facebook That's where you guys can go to get all the past dividing lines radio free

03:45

Geneva's all the teaching everything going on there Lots of stuff happening in the world right now Maybe spend maybe this would do two minutes sort of on maybe encouraging stuff that we should talk about related to what's happening the world today, well

03:59

We're we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. That's that's that's the greatest peace a person can have and There are a lot of people

04:06

I would not want to be facing the the panic out there right now if I didn't have a solid foundation and a and a

04:16

Confidence in the future and that God is still on his throne I mean, can you imagine what it's like to be a humanist or something right now?

04:23

Facing this kind of stuff I mean I guess he can sort of start to understand some of the some of the panic that you're seeing

04:28

That's right people doing just really stupid things and I have a feeling that six months from now

04:34

We're gonna look back at this and go Wow but Unfortunately the technology that creates things like this exists and I think

04:47

Future is an interesting thing to consider. Yeah, you think about just in the last day or a couple days you got

04:53

Italy completely on lockdown Last night the president announced that he's going to stop all flights coming in from Europe.

05:00

That's a very big deal for 30 days Sad for anybody that's there on vacation right now And then you've also got last night as soon as that announcement is made

05:08

I think within minutes It seemed like the NBA announced suspension of their season and then this morning I said the

05:14

NHL is suspending their season. So it's it's interesting And then of course we have the the governor of Kentucky told the churches

05:21

It'd be best not to meet and then you had in Washington State an actual threat made

05:27

To the churches essentially if they gather for worship, there's the militia the National Guard you'll be criminally prosecuted

05:34

Meeting for worship, but I think the number is over a hundred people. Maybe I'm incorrect on that Yeah Yeah, the government telling the church not to meet for worship as a result of coronavirus fears

05:45

So I guess the thing I would like to say is the encouragement towards us as believers is that we know the sovereign

05:52

God who's in control of even the coronavirus and You know, I have a I have this deep down sense this belief that all image bearers of God Know God truly.

06:04

There's just a suppression of truth going on. There's a worshiping of something else in God's place but I think we all have a sense of The judgment that's ahead of us and God's hand of judgment and justice

06:15

And so I think in moments like this even even the atheist sort of you know How people like so like the they what are the people preppers, you know, they're prepping they're prepping

06:23

They're prepping like, you know, things are gonna fall apart and he's because they know they have a sense There's and I know this gets distorted and it's messed up and it gets perverse at times but I think we all know as image bearers of God that God is just God and this is a fallen world and there's judgment and there's the justice of God and there's

06:38

God's disciplining hand and those sorts of things and I think people who sort of like Waiting for that opportunity to sort of just like unleash it like yeah

06:44

Oh and the sky is falling and well, the sky is falling. But unfortunately so many people today are just completely

06:51

Disconnected from any gospel presentation. So they they you know, they think they're just an accident and this is just you know

06:58

This accident of life is gonna get accidentally wiped out by something we can't even face or it's it's nameless and so it's it's really they're looking for hope and They don't have any hope because it because secularism doesn't offer any hope

07:13

I was listening to someone that hopefully Lord willing you and I will have the opportunity of Engaging in a few weeks, maybe we'll see we'll see if that actually if that ends up ends up happening

07:25

But I was listening to a secular humanist. I know he calls himself a religious humanist

07:33

And you know talking about, you know Wanting to do good and be the best person you can be and all the rest of stuff and I was just sitting there going

07:41

Yeah, but when the rubber meets the road and the coronavirus comes What What does any of this actually end up meaning?

07:49

There's you've you've lost all connection with the transcendent. You've lost all connection with creation and Intentionality and order and design and everything else.

07:58

It's just hmm. What do you what do you have left? You can tell people to be good But what's that even mean?

08:05

You know why when you're when you're fighting for the last pack of toilet paper Are you gonna are you really gonna be gonna be good is is the question?

08:14

Yeah, I was I am surprised very surprised that in a crisis situation like this that Human beings are more concerned with their behinds than they are their bellies

08:23

It's amazing to me that like we've got to get that toilet paper. Make sure I die, you know in a good place

08:31

I don't understand any of it. And like I said, I imagined by Late April early

08:38

May we're gonna be on the other side of it going. Wow. Did we overreact? But look

08:44

I look I understand, you know, my my dad's elderly and anybody who's doing chemotherapy or anything like this this stuff's

08:51

Bad stuff, right? but there are still things out there that are worse that are still out there and and can and are even more we don't pay

09:00

Attention to and we just don't Yeah, so what has happened to to there's something else social media.

09:06

There's something else helps here helps Social media really helps the panic but you know things like hepatitis and meningitis

09:13

That stuff's still out there and it's even more deadly by a long shot Um, but you don't have this kind of panic.

09:20

You don't have the nba canceling things and everything else um And I think it's the newness of it, but there's just something else going on It's there's well there's also we mentioned because people probably want to uh be there for it mentioned the debate possibilities

09:33

We have in utah mormon general conference Canceled that not canceled but now it's virtual virtual.

09:41

So no one's showing up Which is a bummer for us southern seminary has gone to virtual classes and Uh, all the students have to leave campus by sunday night uh, and the governor of kentucky called to to ask for that,

09:54

I mean Why why yeah, well, that's a this is a whole show in itself.

09:59

We'll get it is it is we have to do a second response We do part two continuation continuation part two, uh to uh, trent horn, uh, trent horn, uh without any

10:10

That's right without an e. I was making sure I had that right actually, uh trent horn, uh,

10:16

Actually did a response to a standalone message that I did at apologia church. Uh Within the last two months on sola scriptura.

10:24

We had a little space between Our old series and our new series as we did some some stuff for the life and health of our body

10:32

And so one of those messages was a solo scriptura. So it was a one one -time message, uh, not uh uh not extensive, uh, just more

10:43

Dealing with uh foundational issues in it and he did a response or a bottle to the solo scriptura message that I did

10:49

So we did our part one response to him Uh before we left for the uk and now we're back

10:54

So we're going to do the part two right now and try to get through all that he did Uh, it seems if I recollect this first one is a little longer clip

11:01

But I think the rest of them are fairly short clips So we should be able to get through this today what we need to get through today Yeah, and and if one of those is the apocrypha thing we

11:08

I did that on the dividing line Yeah, so maybe we just do a quick quick burst point to that and uh, we'll get to it

11:14

So I'm actually very thankful that trent did this because it provides a great opportunity for discourse and to engage on what are really vitally important issues and I just want to say when when this is very important because This goes out across the internet thousands and thousands of people tens of thousands of people maybe see this

11:29

It's important for us to stress That there are foundational issues There are central core issues and then there are issues that are adiophora.

11:38

There are things that that we ought not Divide over cut each other's throats over um

11:44

You know, you did a great show yesterday responding to um, uh, Hank Henegraaff and his conversion to eastern orthodoxy

11:50

And some of the things that he said I I was listening to that this morning Actually, I listened to it twice actually But the the thing

11:55

I thought was really good was the portion of yesterday where you said look it's not the bells and the smells

12:02

That are the fundamental issues that might be strange to you as an evangelical as a protestant But that's those aren't the main issues, you know, that that's not what you want to really die on It's it's the core issues of like authority

12:15

Uh, so scriptura is their nature of tradition the very source of your understanding of the gospel the application of the gospel

12:21

Yeah, it's these are the foundational things and unfortunately a lot of people in our modern day are

12:29

Protestants of Convenience and protestants of taste and so especially in regards to roman catholicism that was specifically regards to eastern orthodoxy, but Many of the issues end up being the same when it comes to this particular subject um, they don't know what the real

12:45

What the real convictional foundational issues are and so when they discover that oh that one little practice over there

12:51

Well, that's not all that Important that's not all that definitional um, i'm gonna be doing a program hopefully with a

12:57

Apologist who was on with the roman catholic and I was just stunned at how

13:03

Uh, the protestant did not understand what his history was He had he saw that not know any had no idea why he

13:10

Believed the things that he believed and and so it was like oh, well, that's interesting I hadn't really thought of it that way and these are these are things that the reformation actually was was fought over Um, and so yeah every every generation has to be reminded of what these things are in sola scriptura

13:26

Look at it. It doesn't matter what group you're dealing with. This is always the foundation This is core and people on our side

13:32

I'm glad to hear you know entire conferences being done on the sufficiency of scripture and all the rest that kind of stuff

13:38

But the reality is until you take that outside of our narrow confines in our little group and start

13:46

Butting heads with people who are saying no, that's not true you're never really gonna see how important it really is and probably not really get to the point of being able to really

13:56

Explain it to anybody else why it is as important as it is Yeah, I stress a lot of times to our body that God has given us, uh care over.

14:05

Um, that This you talk about issues that matter that you got to be willing to just die over Um, and sola scriptura,

14:13

I believe is one uh, the trinity, uh, how a person is made right with god These are core issues that you should yeah resurrection

14:19

You should be willing to lose your life over that you die for these issues other issues, you know, um

14:26

Even the bells and the smells kind of things like no, I don't want to be burned at a stake for that. No, thanks Because that's not a core issue.

14:33

Um, but this is and i'm really glad that trent, uh actually did the response It gives us an opportunity to actually engage this out in the public square

14:41

Making sure that people can understand these are core if I recall correctly I think did he not already do a response to the first part or at least

14:48

I haven't I've been gone Okay. Yeah, I may have seen something that or made some reference to it

14:53

I'm, i'm not sure but you know, it is interesting We need to emphasize that in on the last program

14:59

One of the things that we pushed was that that sola scriptura is not just simply a doctrine amongst other doctrines

15:05

It is an assertion concerning the nature of scripture. That's right Uh, and when we talk about scripture being theanustas, we're not just simply trying to fill time

15:13

We're literally talking about the fact there's nothing else that is The church possesses one thing that is theanustas and that is scripture the church's traditions are not scripture

15:23

Uh, they are not they're not theanustas. They're not revealed by god And I think the greatest way you can communicate that I mean that needs to be explained just in you know

15:30

Like the sermon you did that needs to be laid out there, but the way it's going to get through to people is by how we

15:38

Handle the word of god week in week out in the ministry of the word. That's right So how you and I preach, um, how all the everyone who preaches at apologia um by showing that honor for that word and Seeking to handle it aright

15:55

And to utilizing consistent hermeneutics and exegesis. This is something you do not see in roman catholicism

16:02

When you go from from parish to parish, you will get such a massively wide um range of Interpretations of the bible because none of them, you know, it's like well has rome infallibly interpreted that for you

16:17

Well, no, so it's just all opinion Anyways, so hey, you can get people quoting origin and this that and the other thing get all sorts of weird wacky strange stuff um one of the things

16:28

I really Enjoy is that when I travel And I visit churches around the world

16:33

That's what unites us together those of us that have the same convictions is that we handle the word in the same way

16:39

Um, that's not what you see within roman catholicism at all at all So this needs to be a core thing and maybe we can lay this down and be helpful for our viewers to sort of get um to put a pin in What's the main issue here?

16:52

It seemed to be coming up with trent and I think we're going to hear it in these Um, he he seems to think that his objection to sola scriptura

17:01

When he says, uh, there was a time where scripture revelation was being given and it wasn't written down Is a very powerful objection to sola scriptura and it isn't no at all

17:12

Which I think we talked about this last time shows that he doesn't seem to really have any Really good interaction with reformed people exegetes

17:22

People are dealing with reformed epistemology on this issue throughout, you know Hundreds of years, uh that this interaction has really been, you know up in front and center

17:31

Uh, so we should stress that sola scriptura Is is there's there's an epistemological

17:38

Core to sola scriptura that has to do with the nature of scripture Um and the origin of scripture what is the nature of scripture is it's the anus dos

17:46

The origin of scripture is the holy spirit of god carried people along to write what they wrote to say what they said

17:51

So sola scriptura is not a denial that there was there were times where scripture wasn't There new testament revelation hadn't been written down and recorded yet And yes

18:01

We recognize that what is coming out of an inspired apostle at by revelation is the revelation of god is god breathed

18:07

Uh, but he seems to think it's a really strong objection To sola scriptura to say that there was a time where paul was teaching and preaching and nothing was written down Not recognizing that time has changed exactly

18:17

We're not in us We acknowledge all of that So so can you just just give me 30 seconds on that that that issue of now?

18:25

What do we have? Yeah Yes, it's it's a straightforward question the the it's the it's the question that I asked mitch paqua in 1999 um

18:35

In san diego in our debate and that is can you show me anything that jesus ever said that has been infallibly defined by the roman?

18:41

Catholic church that does not exist in scripture any word And he goes no, how about any of the apostles?

18:48

Is there is there anything any of the apostles taught that has been infallibly defined by the roman catholic church? Uh that is not found in scripture.

18:54

He said no So the if if you want to talk about being apostolic if you want to believe in apostolic succession apostolic authority

19:02

The only thing that we have that comes from the apostles is what's in scripture and both the eastern orthodox and the roman catholics say no our traditions

19:11

And especially in eastern orthodoxy this becomes even more elevated in roman catholicism more becomes the substance of oral tradition uh, but still that's what becomes the basis of dogmas that are defined about mary at a later point in time or about the function of the church and the elevation of offices in the church that There's no evidence that anybody in the new testament believed these things um, but their idea is

19:34

A sacred tradition capital s capital t sacred tradition is made up of what's in scripture

19:40

The written tradition and then the oral tradition and this oral tradition goes back to the apostles

19:46

But cannot be traced To them outside of the the acceptance of the authority of the authority of exactly exactly so you you often say sola ecclesia

19:56

That's uh, the church alone versus sola scriptura, right and and they they they object to that on on this

20:02

No, no We believe in in the magisterium of the church and the tradition and sacred tradition is made up of you know

20:08

You've got this three -legged stool. You've got you've got scripture and you've you've got a tradition. You've got the magisterium and stuff like that Uh, the problem is that when we ask what is tradition

20:18

So, uh, I I learned this very early on when I was debating geriatrics I would quote an early church father in in contradiction to what he was saying

20:27

And he would say but that's not tradition Well, you quoted from the same early church father. I did the church gets to determine what is and what is not sacred tradition right, so the church

20:38

Defines what tradition is and what tradition says the church defines what scripture is and what scripture says And if you define all those things you're not under the authority of those things because you're defining what they say and cannot say

20:49

And what they are and cannot be so you're the ultimate authority. That's solo. That's sola ecclesia and people

20:56

Unfortunately 99 of the time in discussions on sola scriptura That element is left out.

21:02

So you you don't have an even conversation You have uh standards being applied to scripture and you're supposed to back all that stuff up But then they never let it be turned around and you go, okay now let's let's look at your claims

21:16

Let's uh, let's today you want it. You want to tell me that you need to have uh, an infallible interpreter?

21:22

Let's talk about francis. Yeah, uh, let's talk about uh, how you can know what fran How can you even know what francis is teaching?

21:30

You start to see where it's leaking. Oh, it's it's with francis right now It's not leaking It's gushing.

21:35

It's it fell over. We're talking submarine here Okay, so I mean screen door on the sub situation.

21:41

Yeah. Oh, that's nice. That's a good screen door on the sub. That's perfect So this is important too because we want this to be a helpful useful tool for christians

21:49

And also even for roma catholics or anybody else who would have a different Standpoint in terms of knowledge.

21:54

How do you know something to be true? This is this is actually a very important issue and and when we're talking about the bible god's revelation

22:01

We're talking about something that is self -attesting We're talking about something that is transcendent Ascendant Um, and it's important to for people to recognize not to get into a big long discussion of epistemology right now

22:12

But epistemology is the theory of knowledge How do you know something to be true and this is important because this is not just a discussion happening between roman catholicism and protestantism

22:25

Evangelicalism this is discussed In the history of the world philosophy you name your famous philosophers epistemology is the core issue

22:33

How do I know something to be true? And when you're dealing with someone even today like richard dawkins and his worldview

22:38

It's an epistemological collision. How do I know this to be true? So we're talking about fundamental issues and this is important when you say

22:47

Uh, when you ask somebody a question, how do how do you know that? How do you know that to be true?

22:53

Uh, and then the person says well, I know because the word of god Um that that's an epistemological claim that's god has spoken and therefore that's how

23:03

I have certainty I know because here's what god says When you're when you're dealing with this issue with with rome and its claims of knowledge

23:10

They'll say that this is the word of god This has ultimate authority But when you start to get down the line and trace that out and actually start getting it into conflict

23:19

You're going to find that really the epistemological core Is in the church. Well, how do you know that?

23:25

Well, because the church has said so All right, and and so what happens there is that they'll say yes god has authority

23:31

But ultimately when there's any questions of knowledge and certainty when knowledge claims are made It doesn't go back to scripture.

23:37

It goes back to the claims of the church Now here's now look I don't want to be offensive to trent because i'm not putting trent in the same category as Mormonism in terms of their denial of the trinity and all the mess

23:47

But because trent affirms the trinity praise god that's orthodox that's biblical all those things we could have a real discussion as to why

23:55

Why that's the core. That's exactly my point, but it's important to note that whether it's mormonism

24:00

Whether it's the watchtower you name the group that arises that gives the passing nod to that's the word of god

24:09

Ultimately, we all know when you trace it out You find out where it falls apart is that they don't really believe that it has ultimate self -attesting authority

24:16

It's because joseph says it's because brigham says orson pratt orson hyde joseph fielding smith it's because charles taylor's russell says

24:25

Ultimately, it's sola ecclesia in a sense for them too, and there's different ways that works out

24:30

But the issue comes down to authority. What is the foundation of certainty?

24:36

And I and I think we can spend lots of times on the time on this throughout scripture The core is the word of god is the revelation.

24:43

Everything's to be tested by It's the reference point and so even the church has to fall back to the reference point the church has no right to say because by authoritative decree

24:54

I say And it's we're going to get to this and we'll jump right into this now The church is the bride of christ needs to hear the voice of christ in his word

25:01

Yes, and if that if she if she is deprived of that even by her own theology, she ends up in a monologue

25:06

Yeah, but I do need to just very quickly and we'll go straight to the clip need to emphasize the reality of the fact that To say everything you just said

25:15

Is to have a much higher view of scripture Than is currently prevalent either in the magisterium of the roman catholic church

25:25

Or in the broad spectrum of what's called protestantism as well. Yeah So one of the reasons that most of this conflict from the time of reformation has now passed as far as Anyone really engaging this is because on both sides

25:41

That high view of scripture has collapsed. Yeah, and so I I there is I can guarantee you beyond a shadow of a doubt

25:47

I hold a significantly higher view of scripture than francis does And i'll bet you dollars to donuts trent horn

25:55

Holds a significantly higher. Oh, I believe that scripture. Yeah than the current pope does.

26:01

Yeah Because trent has not been infected by liberation theology from south america and all the rest of the stuff that comes with that So here you have this strange situation

26:11

Of someone who is under the authority the the the infallible Interpretational authority of someone who actually has a lower view of scripture than they themselves

26:20

That's something I would invite trent to think about too. Yeah. Yeah So here we go. Uh this we're going right into part six or clip six

26:27

I have lined up here and we'll do our best to to get through all of this today for everybody Now just a quick sign and we're gonna get right to the text here and we're gonna do a brief

26:35

I don't have a lot of verses to give to you today. It's it's chip. It's chip monk. Jeff That's I hate that trent you you already have a leg up on me because I sound like a madman

26:44

I had to answer some questions The church did not create the canon of scripture by authoritative declaration.

26:51

This is important I don't have time to develop this a lot today I just need to say it in the discussion of sola scriptura because it does come up People talk about sola scriptura.

26:58

Well, you don't have the scriptures except for the church telling you what the bible is By the way, that is fallacious and not true

27:03

That's not how we know what the bible is or have the bible the church didn't create The canon of scripture by authoritative declaration.

27:10

I don't believe in these 66 books because the church made an authoritative declaration Here's your bible.

27:16

You believe that we've created the word of god. That's not how it happened historically That's not what it looked like. Here's the truth the word of god created the church the word of god

27:26

Created and formed the church note the equivocation. Do you mean the bible made the church?

27:33

Because that doesn't make sense The church came into existence at pentecost before any single document of the new testament was written

27:40

The church existed for 20 years without any documents of the new testament Even when you get to the end of the first century you have all the documents are written

27:48

But you don't have anywhere near a universal consensus as to which written documents alone constitute the canon of scripture

27:55

Okay Before I forget that If that standard is held on to If you do not if you need to have a unanimous consensus

28:08

You could make an argument even today that that doesn't exist. But even from the roman catholic perspective the infallible ecumenical definition from rome's view of the canon inclusive of the old testament

28:25

Is found At the council of trent in the middle of the 16th century Mm -hmm okay, so april of 1546 so You you don't have scripture functioning until april of 1546

28:38

Obviously clearly no. So the idea of unanimity of opinion Is not is not even going to be close to the issue.

28:44

Right, but secondly notice the real equivocation here is You're talking about the word of god and We believe that the church

28:55

Was under the authority of the word of god from the beginning He immediately switches to the new testament because he has to But the reality is the new testament apostles

29:05

Quote from the written scriptures In instructing the church as to how the church is to behave

29:12

Over and over and over and over again called the greek septuagint And so the church has always had divine written revelation

29:23

So that she understood when it says the scriptures say she wasn't going what scriptures are that Now once again, there is a period of time where you have inscripturation taking place

29:34

It's almost identical to the time period that you had in the old testament In other words malachi finishes about 400 years before christ 200 years before christ

29:44

We have all the scriptures that we consider the old testament the tanakh laid up in the temple

29:51

Same thing happens with the new testament the the muratorian fragments around 187

29:56

So about 200 years after the birth of christ you have the vast majority of the new testament writings represented therein

30:02

There's there's never any question about the gospels or the pauline corpus really though There are some of the minor books are are discussed, you know

30:12

And whether hebrews is pauline and things like that But the point is you have a very close parallel between the two

30:17

And if you didn't need to have some type of an infallible counsel to give you to the tanakh before the days of jesus because Jesus has conversations with people and none of them are ever about what is the canon of scripture, right?

30:30

He quotes from the scripture holds men accountable to it. It was an organic process It was an organic process within the people of god, right?

30:38

You have the same thing happening, uh in the same time period And you don't need to have the council of trend.

30:44

You don't need to have you don't need to grant to um The councils at the end of the fourth century hippo and carthage some type of ecumenical authority

30:54

Uh, because scripture was never subjugated to that kind of external um verification by an authority to begin with and so So he jumps back into a time period where we are not the question once again is today

31:11

Is the church? still given birth by And sees the proper relationship between herself and the scriptures

31:20

Or is it as rome says the church the church that that is the mother of the scriptures?

31:26

Well, it doesn't make any sense in regards to the septuagint um, but even in regards to the tanakh, but even in that context

31:34

I would say that functionally rome does have to say that she remains the mother of the of scripture

31:40

And the mother of other revelation because no matter what you do Immaculate conception bodily assumption papal infallibility the last three dogmas have been defined by rome

31:50

You you can stand on your head. You can do whatever you want to do. That was not something the apostles taught

31:55

That's not something that anyone the early church believed by any stretch of the imagination. So I think more i'm not saying this about trent but but Non -apologist roman catholics are a little bit more open to saying yeah, that's sort of And they'll come up with a definition of tradition that allows it to bring in new truths

32:15

That have never been known before right? That's pretty close to revelation that yeah I mean think if you're honest about it, it goes that's yeah, that's new revelation

32:23

Uh can't trace it anywhere all those things. So, okay I'm trying to hold my hold my tongue here and just move forward.

32:28

Sorry My video pastor mike winger you do not have unanimity In the church and understanding of what the canon is until after the regional councils of hippo and carthage in the fourth century

32:40

So he's right if by word of god, he means can I just very quickly? Yeah, he's only talking about the new testament there um

32:47

Division continued to exist and this is why I addressed this on the dividing line. So point everyone to do that that was done, uh, how many weeks ago that was uh,

32:56

Right after he did I mean literally right after he put this out, but I don't sometime in the last month I don't I get to go.

33:02

So for everyone go to alpha omega ministries get the longer get the longer discussion on that then right right and and but but This is effective for roman catholic apologists because of our own failure

33:16

Uh, when I say our own failure, I mean shepherds in the church Most of our people our people are an exception because we're both weird um, but Let's just be honest about it.

33:27

But the vast majority of protestants Once you get into the issue of the canon, they're just left going

33:35

They've never had it modeled to them how to even think about these things And so once again, I don't remember if we mentioned it last time

33:41

I think we probably did but if you really want at least get a start on that the hour

33:48

Uh that dr. Kruger and I did. Yes, michael kruger and I did at g3 about two or three years ago

33:54

Yeah on the subject of the canon is extremely helpful because you must remember The canon is a theological thing before it's a historical thing.

34:02

That's right, and that's really important to understand. Yes The revelation of god that was given

34:08

Both written and unwritten forms such as the preaching of the apostles That is what created the church and you're right

34:15

The church did not say these are the books of the bible and created them out of thin air. The church doesn't make

34:20

Scripture god writes scripture, but the church does have the authority to tell us what writings are scripture and which ones are not

34:28

And notice also in this discussion pastor durbin never explains How he knows the 66 books of the protestant bible are inspired he doesn't say if he says well, because I just know god wrote them because he

34:42

No So for the purposes of today, uh, and we got to get through I think, uh,

34:48

Eight seven total clips I think here Um, I have plenty of other teaching online in terms of apologetics foundational things in terms of how do we know the bible is god's word

34:58

Transcendental argumentation, uh, but I I don't say because because I know it's god's word. That's that's that's the farthest thing

35:04

I would encourage uh, Trent go go look online through some apologetic classes and courses I've taught on on the word of god how we know it's god's word

35:11

Uh, but that is certainly not what the claim is being made from from me Uh, just that's like a just cuz argument like we're just cuz well, and remember this is this is another example of where a roman catholic apologist makes a

35:26

Challenges an ultimate epistemological claim Without being honest about the fact that he's in the exact same boat

35:36

Because he'll say to you I want to see from you some kind of Verification process that almost always requires you to be looking outside of scripture, which automatically becomes, uh, self -defeating

35:50

Very much so as soon as as soon as you say that scripture can be proven by something outside of scripture Then you're no longer believing that it's actually god speaking and therefore, you know, you can't go there

35:59

Um, but the reality is when you turn around say, okay, how do you know? Well, because the church has been given the authority to do this and how do you know your church is the church has been given?

36:08

that authority Um, all they've done is they've drawn the line the sand for you and then they've taken one step back and redrawn it back here

36:17

And they're almost never challenged on that level because when you say but but but wait a minute

36:22

Um, let's look at all of the history of the of the roman catholic church And let's look at everything that's happened in the past and you know

36:29

What basis do you have it still comes down to you making a decision on the basis as a human being um, why for them, why do you accept the ultimate authority of the pope versus the ultimate authority of the

36:42

Prophet in salt lake city versus the governing body of jehovah's witnesses in brooklyn New york or any other group you want to go to that will freely offer you an external authority

36:52

They will all say we will be your external authority for you So you don't have to deal with the fact that jesus held men accountable to what scripture was

37:02

Without providing a quote -unquote infallible. Um, Counsel That they could then say it's because of that Where god sent an angel down and he you know wrote it on the ground and there's the canon type of a situation

37:18

Jesus held men accountable And that means god's going to hold men accountable to what he's providing his word

37:24

Yeah, and he didn't do it in the mechanism. They want To force us into but that doesn't work for them

37:31

Yeah, because you not only have that huge gap before they actually have a quote -unquote infallible determination, but even then what trent said

37:38

Trent the council not trent Very confusing

37:46

It's just not fair, uh, but but Why should I believe that the council fathers that met at at trent?

37:54

Why should I believe they had some type of infallible authority to? um decide

38:01

Divisions that had existed for nearly 1500 years As far as I can see the early church fathers that had the most knowledge of the old testament was the ones least likely to accept the apocryphal books so Why uh, why why do

38:14

I get why do I have to overthrow? jerome's authority um when uh, he knew a whole lot more about this than anybody at trent did

38:23

So these are these are questions that that come up and I said i'd be short, but I wasn't sure no, no, it's fine This is a good resource for everybody but I think we're going to get into more of this discussion in terms of like Saying this is your authority and then actually appealing to some outside of authority that usurps that authority that becomes the self -attesting authority

38:41

This important self -attestation is not something that people think about much They don't they don't and it's really important that we start thinking about that as christians because it is very very very important Uh, and it's not just important for the discussion between us and rome

38:52

It's disgusting. It's it's important in terms of the discussion with us and the atheist the humanist on the street. It's important It's important for us in our discussion with ourselves our own theology requires.

39:02

Yeah an understanding of that so when I say like for example, just to take it outside of the realm of what's happening with trent the horn and then also uh, it's

39:09

When you talk about the the atheist on the street, this is the issue and it's like they'll be like well

39:15

I'll say well, how do you know what you know? Well, because I use my reason Right. So so reason is your self -attesting authority.

39:21

Well, how do you know reason is reasonable? How do you know reason is the ultimate authority like what what gives you the right to say that you're

39:28

You believe your ancestors are bacteria, right? So where's this reason happening? Like is it just brain chemistry happening?

39:34

Like why is that the authority because what's happening in your head right now is not happening in my head two different brains

39:40

And so if it's just brain chemistry, what is this reason? Is it universal are these laws that are transcendent that exist somewhere out in the universe?

39:48

And and why do I have to hold to what if I want to give a ground for where they came from? Yeah, do I have to why don't I just create my new version of laws of logic where I say it's perfectly fine to contradict

39:57

Yourself tomorrow. Maybe it changes tomorrow. Do you see the point though? The atheist says it can't be god in his self -attesting authority.

40:02

His word can't just be the supreme reference point It's got to be my autonomous reason as a human being in this world it becomes everybody's ultimate has to ultimately become

40:15

Self -attesting it has to be self -attesting or it's not Ultimate right so the issue of ultimacy whenever I listen to atheists calling into catholic answers um,

40:27

I'm If I had hair I would I I feel like pulling your hair out. Let's put that way.

40:32

Okay um, because when you when you they within the first two minutes

40:39

Will grant the unbeliever the very ground that will allow him to remain an unbeliever The very the very ground that you and I will deny to the unbeliever

40:48

They will grant the unbeliever they have to because the nature of the theology Yeah, it's it just drives me insane.

40:54

I know and I just honestly I just don't think they've ever even listened to anything else But their theology wouldn't allow them to do it you and I do it anyway consistently, right?

41:03

I've seen people using presuppositional apologetics inconsistently, right? Me too. Um, because hey it works

41:09

Uh, you just you just you got some good one -liners. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and there are yeah But there's a reason those are good one -liners because of what's underneath it

41:17

Uh, what's holding it up? Okay, here we go Uh and see this worst thing in the world by the way put pastor james and I together at a table say be fast

41:23

Not gonna happen. We're doing our best though. Okay, here we go So then what happens here is pastor durbin, uh goes on a long excursus, uh through genesis

41:33

Two and three and talks about the fall of man and how essentially what happened was adam and eve didn't listen to god

41:38

They didn't follow what god said because god said it The fall of man happened and sin entered the world

41:44

And then he takes from that that this is a teaching of the doctrine of sola scriptura I don't see how he

41:49

Gets that from genesis because nothing was written down god spoke to adam and eve

41:56

So if the lesson is don't disobey the word of god, amen I totally agree But you can't get that because god spoke his word and it was disobeyed to adam and eve from that The word of god is confined to the written word alone it is

42:09

Directly related to the doctrine of sola scriptura sola scriptura is that scripture alone is the sole infallible rule of faith and practice for the church sole infallible rule of faith and practice of the church and as uh,

42:23

Pastor james said already in this this episode in this response. Uh, what do we know today was from the apostles?

42:30

What do we have? It's what is written? What is written? We're not talking about what um, What rome talks about when they talk about tradition sacred tradition that they have

42:39

So this really is an epistemological Part of sola scriptura and what makes it?

42:45

Uh, the doctrine that it is is the core issue here is it is the what we're already talking about self -attesting authority

42:52

Ultimate reference point and when you're talking about what happens at the very beginning of our bibles At the very beginning of the story you have the same conflict we're in right now

43:02

It's just a different version of it, but it's the same issue God speaks and what does he say? He says this but not that and and You know, you say that's an excursus trent this is because i'm developing the foundation of the doctrine

43:15

From the beginning of the bible god says this but not that now. Here's the here's the thing Well, why why weren't adam and eve allowed to say but why?

43:23

On what basis god? I mean this place is all new I mean new trees new animals new me, you know, you just did this thing over here

43:31

I mean, how do how do I tell me why is it because i'll get fat? If I if I eat it like is is there some reason so what's important here to notice?

43:41

Is that when you talk about the epistemological foundations at the very beginning of the bible god doesn't appeal to anything outside of himself

43:47

He just says this but not that the day you do you'll die. That's it There's no external sort of on this basis because of this reason

43:56

And adam and eve are not in a situation where I I say I believe in this I say, you know, like what if eve

44:04

Actually is like going well You know, this may not taste good

44:09

You know, i'm not gonna i'm gonna i'm not gonna eat it because it probably doesn't taste good And well, she'd have external obedience

44:16

She didn't eat it. But actually it was sinful because she was not eating it not on the basis of god's self -attesting word

44:23

She had some other reason for not externally, you know obeying as the creature she was trying to become independent

44:31

Exactly. And so the point is is like what if she says well, I won't eat it because i'm gonna get fat or it's gonna Taste weird, you know, i'm just not into that fruit

44:38

I don't like durian fruit. I think that the the fruit of the fall was durian. They shouldn't have touched it

44:43

Anyways, uh durian is a nasty. I think it was kale stinky disgusting fruit. I don't know humans are not

44:48

After hearing after smelling my wife making kale chips in the kitchen Yes, it had to be kale.

44:54

Uh, so whatever the reason here's the point. This is a core issue It is very very important when god speaks at the beginning of the bible.

45:00

He says this but not that that's it He says the day you do you'll die So adam and eve were supposed to obey that command on the basis of what?

45:11

their human reason Was that supposed to be the standard? Well, let me think about what god commanded there Well, here's the ins and outs and here's the consequent, you know, maybe it's because of this reason

45:21

You know, no, they're supposed to just obey. So what comes into the garden is another voice and what's the voice challenging?

45:29

Ultimately, it's hath god said did god really say no? No. No, this is not what's going to happen to you

45:35

You see god doesn't want you to take of it because he knows Your eyes are going to be open and you'll be like god

45:40

Knowing good and evil and so here you have in the beginning of the bible this epistemological collision.

45:46

That is the grounding Um of the doctrine of sola scriptura and there's more but this is the issue god says he speaks it on his self -testing authority

45:55

Here's another voice So the issue is is a collision of voices god says he says god says you say

46:03

The test is on the basis of what did god say and isn't interest interesting? No, infallible interpreter necessary in that situation and no and no no

46:12

No council that gathers to define for adam and eve what the canon of god's revelations actually are uh, they are supposed to Somehow god's ministry to them is sufficient in of itself.

46:24

Yeah, and there is also no foundation for what many Christians do and many christian apologists do and basically say that there is a natural law argument to establish

46:36

The authority of scripture itself, right? Um, it's from the beginning adam and eve are dependent upon revelation from god, right?

46:42

That's That's vitally important to point out very very much. So I get that at all Oh, okay.

46:49

So there's not that. All right, we'll go on to the next one. Actually that was a short clip good. Okay Here we go

46:56

God says if even the wonder comes to pass However, the prophet or dreamer of dreams leads you after other gods gods, which you have not known

47:06

That's how you know, there are false prophets. So again, here's another example of that classic contrast in scripture that conflict

47:14

You've got the voice of god laid down as the foundation and the other voice must be tested by the previous revelation

47:21

It's in the garden It's in deuteronomy 13 How were the people of god to know whether this prophet or dreamer of dreams was representing the true god?

47:29

Here's the answer if they lead you after a different god Different from how i've revealed myself to you.

47:35

That's how you know So the point here that i'm making is as i'm moving away through scripture again, this was not an exhaustive

47:43

Course or lecture series on the doctrine of sola scriptura Again, if you guys want some very powerful extensive study of this get william webster and david king's works on sola scriptura

47:55

Forget the title of the books again. Just holy scripture William webster sola scriptura look at look it up.

48:03

You'll find it's a three volume set There's some good stuff in terms of the fathers there. There's good stuff in terms of developing a doctrine

48:09

Doctrine through through scripture, but but here's here's what I was demonstrating in terms of epistemology related to the issue of sola scriptura

48:15

Which of course acknowledges that there were times in history where something wasn't written down yet The revelation of god is the point sola scriptura again is based upon the nature of scripturists.

48:26

They honest us It's from god and then the next thing is the origin of scriptures The holy spirit of god is carrying people along to say what they said or to write what they wrote

48:35

But the issue here is in terms of how does this develop through scripture? What do you see god holding people accountable for?

48:41

How do you see the people of god instructed in terms of testing claims?

48:47

Because you've got at the very beginning of your bible. You've got god says satan says Then you have god says and then false prophets say and so what i'm doing here in this is demonstrating the principle

48:58

That it is god's revelation that becomes the starting point It becomes the reference point for all these questions and what god does in deuteronomy 13

49:08

Uh one through five is he actually gives his people a test in his law And he says look this prophet or dreamer of dreams comes they have signs and wonders

49:16

Uh, so it looks legit, but they lead you after other gods That's how you know that they're a false prophet why because even if you have the miraculous ministry happening

49:25

It looks legit. The test was based upon god's revelation God's revelation was the core issue there and it wasn't there was no point being made by me here trent on Uh, the single issue is is the nature of god

49:38

So if a prophet denies the nature of god and how god's revealed himself as god, that's how you know They're a false prophet.

49:43

That wasn't the issue. It's the principle God has spoken you test prophets dreamers of dreams people who have visions you test them by god's previous revelation of himself

49:53

And so that was the issue god's revelation stands supreme and so here's what trent says Prophet now watch how does this work out in our conflict in the world?

50:02

But this doesn't prove sola scriptura All it's saying is you can accept something as divine revelation if it doesn't tell you to worship another god

50:09

Well catholicism doesn't tell people to worship some other god. We disagree on how to worship the true god

50:16

But even here this argument wouldn't from a protestant perspective even invalidate the catholic faith

50:22

So it's we said last time that he does seem to have in the back of his mind that if we're talking about sola

50:28

Scriptura, we're talking about roman catholicism And while that was absolutely definitional in the reformation, right?

50:35

Um It's not This does illustrate something because for us

50:41

This has remained central because it defines the parameters of How we can do theology how we can answer this answers the questions about why he was so shocked when you talked about addiction or analyzing theories of government scripture

50:59

What are you talking about? Right from their perspective? They got the church to do all that kind of stuff, even though right now they're probably wondering about that given uh, the uh, frankie the marxist, um, but yeah, but but we've

51:12

We have continued because of semper reformandum Because there has to be continuing

51:19

Reformation. Well, there has to be a source for that. So there has to be an external voice that the church is

51:25

Hearing and not in mere monologues. It has become definitional for us, but it's not for them

51:31

And so I understand from his perspective. We're the church You're in rebellion against us.

51:37

So if you're talking about sola scriptura, you must be talking about us, right? Well In in in the sense that It's important in talking about roman catholicism

51:46

Yes, but eastern orthodoxy and mormonism and jehovah's witnesses and and in our own self -definition of our own own beliefs

51:52

It's it's vital in all of these things. So you are just simply giving a A general principle and he focuses in upon what the specific was.

52:00

We're not saying you're saying We're not saying that you're teaching a false god in the sense that you deny the trinity

52:07

Though I would certainly say that your your that rome's epistemology

52:13

Could allow I mean you're getting pretty close when you got the bodily assumption of mary. Yeah You're getting really close.

52:20

Yeah, and I think it's one of the reasons they haven't defined the fifth marian dogma Even though popes have taught it as doctrine

52:26

It hasn't been defined as dogma. There's a difference between the two, uh, the concept of mary as co -mediatrix co -redemptrix

52:32

Yeah, um, uh, so but what if that was I mean that really starts getting pretty close to some serious.

52:39

Um, Conflict with the an orthodox doctrine of god. Yeah. Yep Once again, you're going back to scripture of a warning against idolatry and forsaking god to trying to drive sola scriptura into the verse and that's simply what it doesn't mean.

52:55

It's just saying Uh, you can accept someone as a prophet if they don't lead you away from the true god

53:01

Otherwise if you have it that oh you can only accept someone do you really believe that trent? I mean this to you in the most friendly way

53:07

You you really believe that that's the the issue god was aiming at there That that is as long as the issue of they had the right god was right

53:14

And god was perfectly fine with anything else the prophet was saying so they could have a false view of worship they could it could be

53:22

Bringing things into god's worship that offended him and just so long as they get me, right?

53:27

Like the worship is fine. Do you really think that's a principle god is teaching there? I don't believe that you believe that trend. I I actually found this as as one of the weakest, uh responses, uh to that text itself because I I don't believe that trent really believes that that what god is saying there in his law

53:41

Is that prophets are to only be tested based upon what they say about god and his nature? Just don't lead him after a different god everything else.

53:48

Olly olly oxen free baby there There's no problem there The principle there is god has spoken the prophet can't lead you after another god god's already given his revelation as the grounding

53:57

The people of god were to look to that revelation To test the prophet and it had more there's a principle there that has more to do with than just the issue of god

54:08

Obviously if it already perfectly corresponds with the revelation that's already been given What do you do if god wants to give new revelation and we'll talk about that a little bit when we talk about acts 17 when we get here towards more of the the end of the video

54:21

Well, I would say if god gives new revelation and he does through the course of redemption his redemptive history

54:26

If god gives new revelation, he is not a god of confusion. He's not going to contradict himself God is not going to do that.

54:33

So all the new revelation that god is giving God is not a god that changes is not going to subvert or contradict the revelation that he's given previously

54:41

So that test still stands and by the way It was a test that jesus applied in his day to people who were

54:48

Teachers of the law who had what they saw as essentially a divine tradition something from god in terms of the korban rule

54:55

And all the rest and it's something that you see worked out in the lives of the apostles It's not not a not a good argument.

55:02

Trent. Just not a good argument Yes, we believe that god continued to give can continue to give Further revelation of redemptive history, but that principle the people of god had in terms of the revelation of god

55:13

We have previous to this has to be the reference point to this to this claim or that claim

55:19

That still holds and so that's really not an argument with sola scriptura And that's what i'm saying when I hear things like this.

55:25

I think trent hasn't really engaged with solid protestants on this issue and reformers who who have been writing on this for a very long time and in very very extensive

55:37

So so as as a professional apologist, then we could hold him accountable for doing that but at the same time, um

55:44

If he's just simply talking to protestants as he goes out and does talks that come to his talks

55:50

Um, how many of them do we expect to have done the same reading right? No, I agree probably very few.

55:57

Yep Also, I want to say I've been hearing little kids shouting in the background I say good on pastor durbin love seeing kids at church, by the way

56:04

Uh, if your church isn't crying your church is dying So keep bringing the kids people so good on you all for that.

56:13

I will give you props for that I hate I just I have little kids. So I hate when people give them stink eyes when they're making age appropriate

56:21

Vocalizations if they're crying their head off take them outside, but they should be allowed to make an age appropriate vocalization

56:26

Jesus said let the children come to me Age appropriate vocalization. Are we going to start are we going to put that in the bulletin now?

56:34

That's actually I like how trend said that i'll make sure that's age appropriate vocalization Yes. Yeah. Well, uh trying to thank you for the uh for the uh, the blessing there and the compliment

56:41

Um, yes, we and I I will say uh, just as a side note to that wonderful, uh compliments uh the reason we actually have family integrated worship is because of our commitment to what the scriptures say about worship and Those sorts of things and so but we appreciate that and we agree with you if you're not crying you're dying

56:59

And that's seen in a lot of churches and I I do I do have I do have a problem

57:04

We probably in great agreement here trend. I do have a problem uh with even a lot of the uh, just just the popular methodology of sort of just grabbing the kids and saying all right out of worship and go to your kids group and I got a real problem with that and uh, these kids at apologia church are incredible I mean they can beat the adults with catechism and their verses they're memorizing

57:26

You know when people say like kids can't handle that stuff Come to our catechism competition this sunday and watch these kids do the catechism questions

57:33

There's like we were up to like 20 Where we at now and where were you guys were you guys in? Uh, I think you were you were in uh, ireland

57:41

Or were you there when I when I when marley helped me with the uh, I was there. Okay, you were there yeah, so so there's a picture floating around facebook of uh,

57:50

I just I just got to be good friends with little marley when we were up in salt lake city last time, right?

57:56

And she had some orange hair, right? And so she was looking about I don't have any and so I was asking if I could have some of her carrot hair

58:03

And so we got to be friends and well now she has green hair, right? And so she was really easy to find so I was like, would you like to help me give the benediction?

58:10

So there's this picture of me and marley and I didn't ask her to do this But but we raise our hand when we when we give the benediction.

58:17

So she's he's raising with him Yeah, she's got her hand up. Yeah, she's she's helping with the benediction So yeah, it only you know,

58:24

I came from a church that was very very very very very very very quiet. Yeah um Really really quiet and so it took about two weeks and then until someone's just Screaming their head off.

58:38

You just don't really you don't really notice it We just you get used to the kids, you know Kind of moving around and drawing pictures and listening and and I will say just quickly to that It's funny.

58:47

You'll see kids that are sort of like drawing pictures and you know, it's an hour -long sermon generally an apology at church

58:52

Um, and you even you've even ruined me on that too. Yeah. Yeah And so that's what will happen is the hour -long sermon and you're like, well

58:59

What are these kids really getting out of the service and you talk to the parents? about how when they go home or that week when the kid will say

59:04

You know, uh pastor james said such and such and I think uh, that was really interesting or you know It's like six seven year old kids that captured this really really important point in the message

59:14

And so I think it's important for us to get the kids back into church so they can hear The gospel itself and they can also be instructed and discipled

59:21

Uh there so okay. Thank you. Trent for that that blessing. Here we go That's the foundation of sola scriptura scripture is the breathed out revelation of god

59:29

The origin of it is the spirit of god carried people along to write what they wrote It is the very voice of god god speaking quick thing

59:36

You know that you've heard it a lot from this pulpit when jesus was in an early controversy What did he say?

59:42

He said have you not read what was spoken to you by god?

59:47

What does the lord jesus do with scripture? He equates the reading of scripture with god Speaking have you not read what was spoken to you by god?

59:57

So the word of god can exist in a written form and an unwritten form thanks,

01:00:03

I I agree That's the foundation Scripture, thank you.

01:00:08

Trent. I'm glad you do but but not in but not in a way that's at all meaningful because Uh, when you say it is in an unwritten form

01:00:18

You're talking about a period of time that you're not alive you and I aren't aren't living in that day right now The question is where is the word of god now?

01:00:26

And officially you agree the canon canon's closed No more apostles

01:00:33

Technically no more revelation But if you then turn around and say but there's this oral form we've been challenging

01:00:40

Since the reformation since calvin wrote to sadaletto, uh in the middle of the 16th century.

01:00:46

We have been challenging rome Okay, you you talk tradition. Let's see it. Give it to us. Give us the book of tradition.

01:00:53

Where where where is it? Um, what is what is the content of the oral tradition has been passed down from the apostles?

01:00:59

Why do we have to wait? For some kind of because just think about what has been defined by rome as dogma since the days of the reformation

01:01:07

Was not something they were arguing about at all. There was nobody You know the bodily assumption of marrying were there were there uh catholic monks that believe in that that yeah, probably

01:01:17

But the idea that that was a part of the oral tradition that paul had delivered to the thessalonians

01:01:23

No way And so what you have in the vast majority of instances today is roman catholics adopting

01:01:30

Uh the newman idea of the acorn and the tree And so what they can do is say well there was this uh

01:01:40

Almost like protoplasm tradition delivered to the thessalonians and then over time it grows and matures and And we can discern things in it

01:01:49

This isn't this is a really fancy schmancy way of saying we get latter -day revelation. I mean, that's just really that's really what it is.

01:01:56

Yes Um, because if paul didn't teach this to the thessalonians, then that doesn't fit into into the text.

01:02:04

That's right Uh that whole oral tradition, uh by word of mouth or by letter. That's first of all, it's just about the gospel contextually

01:02:11

That's that's all it's about. How do we know what the gospel is today? Are you telling me the new testament does not define the gospel? Obviously not um, but that's what it was about initially and If you're going to use it

01:02:21

Then you're going to have to say it was actually taught to the thessalonians. None of this stuff was it's just historically

01:02:27

Not verifiable. That's right The apostles formula you noticed just look at book of romans the book of romans read the first Four chapters of the book of romans and notice how the apostle paul

01:02:39

An inspired apostle actually buttresses his points. How does he well, how does he demonstrate his points not on his own authority?

01:02:47

As a lot of charlatans often do what do they say? Well, this is true about god. Well, how do I know that because i'm speaking for god?

01:02:55

Because I know because i'm the prophet because i'm the leader I'm the one who's given this i've gotten this revelation on my authority

01:03:01

What's the apostle paul do in romans when he is making his point about the gospel? He actually points where to the old testament revelation of god and he says what what does the scripture say?

01:03:13

He roots his arguments in the words of the living god The reason paul does that in romans is to answer a hypothetical

01:03:21

Jewish interlocutor who says that paul is not being faithful to the covenant that god gave to abraham for example to talk about the importance of the law and the covenant that was given paul routinely cites the old testament in romans to show a

01:03:37

Continuity between the covenant that was given to abraham for example and how that covenant is fulfilled in christ and how we are justified by faith in christ and that a

01:03:48

Christian does not have to become a good jew first that a gentile Can become a christian without having to become a good jew and being circumcised for example by being baptized

01:03:58

Into christ by dying and rising with him but then Uh, so what pastor durbin here is saying that even paul he he goes to the word to the scriptures

01:04:06

Yeah to answer his jewish opponents, but paul didn't feel that way that that was necessary Go to paul's letter to the galatians go to galatians chapter 1 verses 11 through 12

01:04:16

What does paul say? Does he say what I have from you is exactly what was already given in the written word and go back to scripture?

01:04:22

And here's my authority. Nope Here's here's where Where you really where the river meets the road

01:04:29

We are not saying that there is when we were talking about the consistency Consistency In apostolic teaching with the old testament revelation.

01:04:38

I almost jumped in and decided I was actually trying to be disciplined. But yeah, you know how well that works.

01:04:44

Um The fulfillment themes of the new testament extremely important The new testament is is glued to the old testament by fulfillment prophecies that all the themes of redemption that then come into full fulfillment in the new

01:05:04

But the new testament is not limited to fulfillment um so some people would say for example that jesus can't really be god because Well, you know you just had a he was just supposed to be the messiah.

01:05:18

He was only supposed to be this only supposed to be that clearly part of the mystery that had been hidden from ages past was the whole idea of this this

01:05:28

You know This messiah is the god man and we are going to bring jews and gentiles together into one body and oh my goodness

01:05:36

This is this we're gonna go all over the world. And this is this is cosmic reconciliation And and and everything else so we're not saying the new testament cannot have amazing um

01:05:49

Motifs in it what we're saying is it's both they have to be connected by fulfillment and then that fulfillment though cannot just be limited to Looking at old testament categories say well, it can't go back past anything that we that we have here in the old testament

01:06:03

That's what a lot of jewish apologists will try to argue against us is saying Uh, you're just missing all this messianic stuff.

01:06:09

You're reading stuff in it. It just couldn't couldn't possibly go that far so What you still have here though is is trence trying to argue

01:06:19

That that in essence when you're when you're looking at sola scriptura that what we somehow are saying is that There was no place for the apostle

01:06:32

To say this is my gospel. What he's saying is my gospel was prophesied. It is consistent.

01:06:38

There are fulfillment themes but it goes beyond that to the fact that christ has

01:06:44

Has given authority to us to accomplish these things and to do things that Well, let's just put it this way when

01:06:52

Paul is arguing in romans against jewish interlocutors as he said he was

01:06:59

Why do you never see him drawing from? Non -canonical sources to make his authoritative points.

01:07:06

That's my point. I wanted to make paul Knows the mishnah what we would call them. That's not that's an anachronistic phrase for anybody who doesn't know

01:07:15

The mishnah is codified between 200 and 250 years after christ Um, so it's extremely important for us in the knowledge of what traditions existed in the days of christ

01:07:23

But we have to be careful because it is a little bit after that time period of time the mishnah is then commented upon for centuries and then the mishnah with its

01:07:32

With its gemara the commentary becomes the talmud and the various forms that exist in babylonian talmud, so on and so forth um

01:07:41

So there were all sorts of sources That paul could have brought in As authoritative at this particular point in time

01:07:50

We're not saying that all he could do Was he just simply had to repeat old testament text.

01:07:56

He did that enough We're not saying that he couldn't use other words to express things tie things together as the apostles frequently would bring uh citations from multiple old testament prophets together into one fulfillment passage something like that.

01:08:08

We're not saying that that's a Anything he's basically trying to say if you really believe in solo scriptura, then you wouldn't be doing those things

01:08:14

No, that's that's a misunderstanding of where we're coming from And I think it's important to note that uh,

01:08:20

Trent you've made my point for me when you demonstrate that he's he's

01:08:25

Arguing with at some points in romans an imaginary jewish interlocutor You're making my point when you say that he's arguing with and so on what basis is he arguing with?

01:08:38

The jewish interlocutor he's saying what does the scripture say? So for paul his mindset is in these moments where he's a mat where he's doing this imaginary debate and it's coming through in the text

01:08:49

What is he standing on as authoritative? What does he know is the punch the delivering the punch to the the questioner?

01:08:55

Well, what does the scripture say? Well god says this and so here's how you know My gospel is consistent because the scriptures say so saying well

01:09:03

He's really just having a discussion with an imaginary jewish interlocutor about whether or not You know the covenant is consistent whether you have to become jewish to become christian those sorts of things

01:09:11

Well, the point is and i'd say there's more going on there than that But the point is is for paul.

01:09:16

What's the what's the position to stand on for him? He's saying what does the scripture say? Here's what the scripture say that this is what god says in his word.

01:09:23

So he's deriving His authoritative punch in those in those moments there from referring to what does the scripture say?

01:09:31

And I can't remember where this is at in the sermon But if is this in the section where I was talking about The apocrypha i'm not quite sure maybe what has continued not 100 % but I know see his his response to you though was

01:09:43

But in galatians chapter 1 he's saying he didn't get his gospel from the scriptures

01:09:51

He got his gospel by direct revelation, which again Uh, but paul's argument was his gospel is by direct revelation

01:10:00

That jesus christ rose from the dead that he was the jewish messiah, etc, etc Um, but that that remains consistent with what the prophets had said in the fulfillment motif

01:10:10

But he's specifically talking in that context in galatians chapter 1 About the fact that he was under attack in the churches in galatia as to what his apostolic authority actually was

01:10:20

That's right And since it was supposed to be derivative or they were saying was derivatives to somebody else Then it was secondary to their own and he had the same situation with the corinthians the super apostles

01:10:29

Yeah who were claiming to have a higher authority? So what do you do in that context? That's a completely different category what now you're talking about who's truly an apostle and who isn't right?

01:10:39

Which is a different different issue than what we're dealing with here. It has to be pointed out in galatians. Uh that very short letter um his the the his argument that he makes is by referring to scripture and the consistency of Of that issue throughout the text and he goes back to abraham and he goes back to sarah

01:10:58

He talks about the two covenants And so what is he doing is referring to scripture as the grounding and so it's not just on the basis of because I say so He's the whole point is there is is his methodology is consistent with what the scriptures say about how do you know?

01:11:11

and not only I did find it's sort of ironic that he would use galatians because uh, wasn't that pope peter that um,

01:11:20

That he slapped upside the head. Uh there in chapter two and in front of everyone said

01:11:26

Uh, you're not walking straight in accordance with the truth of the gospel. That's right. Um, Yeah, I think that's what it was.

01:11:32

Uh, so yeah, right Speaks from his own authority He actually does what pastor durbin says he doesn't do saying i'm the prophet speaking for god

01:11:40

What paul says is for I would have you know brother and that the gospel which was preached by me is not man's gospel

01:11:46

For I did not receive it from man nor was I taught it but it came through a revelation

01:11:51

Of jesus christ that the authorities receive revelation from god claims to receive revelation from god um, and that somehow destroys your point that when writing to the romans he demonstrates the consistency of that revelation with the previous revelation

01:12:10

Trent didn't understand the argument. Yeah, I don't think he understood the the issues. Well, but he's also trying to make us

01:12:18

Shoehorn solo scriptura into a period of revelation, right? That's that's just that's that's all through it doesn't work neither the lord jesus or the apostles

01:12:28

Ever quoted from the apocrypha with the divine formula of what does scripture say anything like that?

01:12:34

Were they aware of the apocrypha? Of course they were did they quote from the apocrypha at times never with the divine formula

01:12:40

They saw it as sometimes useful historical information. The apostle paul even quoted from iranus of cilicia and epimenides of crete

01:12:46

These are pagan poets and prophets It's not saying that they are actually inspired But in scripture when the apostles are appealing to something is true.

01:12:54

They say what does the scripture say next? Uh, this is a separate debate on the inspiration of the deuterocanonical books of scripture

01:13:02

But it goes back to a point pastor durbin is making earlier about oh, where's the canon of scripture? Who decides it did the church decide it?

01:13:09

How do I know and you never answer the question but really for pastor jeff and most protestants They know the canon of scripture because their pastor and their parents told them this is the bible

01:13:18

That's their tradition that they've inherited. So I would just say Well, my dad my dad did not tell me

01:13:27

Well if if what he's saying is the vast majority of protestants Have never given thought to the canon of scripture

01:13:33

Just like the vast majority of roman catholics had never given thought to the canon of scripture. That's not a disputable point That's that's obvious, right?

01:13:39

Um, but the the the real issue is where does canonical authority lie and As I said in my response to him on the deuterocanonical books

01:13:48

Uh, this is this is where you have to understand what the can is. It's an artifact of revelation

01:13:54

Etc, etc. I won't repeat that here, but I will I will say I agree

01:14:01

Not regarding you, but I would agree that most protestants Have 66 books because they've never read anything but those 66 books and it's a tradition

01:14:12

That shouldn't be It should be something that we teach on our churches. We do

01:14:18

I do you know that um, but That is the case and it's the same thing with I mean i've i've i've almost never met a roman catholic

01:14:30

Who had any idea? How many people in the ancient church? Rejected The apocryphal books as canon of scripture almost met none of them that knew that pope gregory the great

01:14:43

Specifically excluded the books of maccabees from the canon of scripture didn't know didn't know what jerome Didn't know that melito sardis had inquired of the jews in palestine and recognized these books were not ever considered canon

01:14:56

No, so Yeah, the issue of the canon unfortunately is one thing that Surprisingly enough to me the vast majority of people on both sides don't

01:15:06

They are running solely on tradition. That's right So we are almost done here, but real fast. I need to take a bathroom break carmen

01:15:12

Can we take a break and uh, or do you have a commercials lined up or should I just turn on some music? Can we take a quick break? Wait a minute.

01:15:18

I'm i'm Almost 16 years. I'm 16 years older than you. I have a juice here and then there's well that's that stuff is just I don't even know what what with this.

01:15:28

No the other oh the yerba mate. It's all good It's so good for you carmen. Are we good on taking a break? Uh, yep.

01:15:33

We're ready to go All right guys, so we're gonna do here just stay with us guys quick break We're gonna come right back after this break. We're gonna finish up the last

01:15:40

Three quick clips. We'll have you guys out of here in no time Stay with us guys go to apologia studios .com

01:15:45

to get more All the radio shows episodes podcasts you can go all access with us to partner with us in the ministry

01:15:52

Get the tv shows the after shows apology academy all that's there for you guys

01:15:58

You can partner with us to make everything we're doing possible. We'll be right back guys The goal for new st.

01:16:47

Andrews college as a trains and students is not to make People who will be able to go out and just get jobs people who will just be

01:16:58

Bricks in the wall of our society the goal for new st. Andrews college is to make students Into men who will really impact culture

01:17:14

I want their faith to not just be something that stands but something around which culture can be built

01:17:20

We want students who can think critically about arguments, but also about the culture around them

01:17:25

That can then speak clearly to it and that also have the ability to influence And shape because of the power of their message because that's really what the gospel does the gospel