Gluttony: How Fat Does Someone Have to Be Before It Is Ok to Fat-Shame Them?

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The message of Christianity is that salvation is found in Christ alone and any who reject

Christ therefore forfeit any hope of Salvation any hope of Heaven The issue is that humanity is in sin and the wrath of Almighty God is

Hanging over our head. They will hear his words They will not act upon them and when the floods of divine judgment when the fires of wrath come

They will be consumed and they will perish God wrapped himself in flesh

Condescended and became a man died on the cross for sin was resurrected on the third day

Has ascended to the right hand of the father where he sits now to make intercession for us

Jesus is saying there is a group of people who will hear his words They will act upon them and when the floods of divine judgment come in that final day their house will stand

And welcome to Bible bashed where we aim to equip the Saints for the works of ministry

We're your host Harrison Kerrig and pastor Tim mullet and today we seek to answer the age -old question

How fat does someone have to be before it's okay to fat shame them? now this is an episode the last episode was primarily motivated by a post that I had seen on Twitter but this this episode is actually motivated by Some things

Tim that you saw over the weekend. So so why don't you tell us? Why why we're doing this episode on on fat shaming today?

sure, well over the You know at the end of end of last week I was doing some

Christmas shopping and trying to get a dirty Santa gift. And so I really don't go

To stores very often. I really, you know would prefer to Avoid shopping as much as possible because I just don't really like to spend money

I'm cheap and so I don't really like to go to stores as far as that It's just you know, why go, you know tempt yourself to spend a bunch of money

But I don't really do a whole lot of shopping at stores Anymore, but I found myself driving and I was near a target and I just thought

I was running there and find a Find a gift real quick and go to the electronic section or whatever and grab something

For this party that I was going to and You know as I'm I haven't been a target long time.

But as I'm in Target, I'm just walking through the women's clothes section my way back to the electronic section and You know posted on the wall is this picture of three, you know huge women, you know like just enormous women

You know, I mean the kind of women whose legs are as big as my body, you know They give like Thunder thighs a whole new meaning but you know, they're they're doing model poses like, you know

You might expect at a normal At a normal show or a normal store that you might go to but they're doing the same kind of poses

But it's just like huge, you know 400 -pound women that are up there and and you know

So I go from there and think oh man, like what are we doing? With with this and then

I walk into the electronic section and there's a picture of You know smiling sodomite and a purple shirt and and then

I start Noticing all the the diversity pictures that are there and it's basically just an intersectional

Display of you know, you have the Indian couple They I guess we're not quite ready for full tribal headdress

Indians yet at Target, but you know But I mean, it's just it's all about progress

Tim one step at a time man right, and so but that that was just For me,

I mean I've been watching this movement the body positive movement and fat shaming has become

Along those lines one of the worst possible things that you could do I mean, I I know that growing up growing up there's social pressure against being overweight and now now that You know critical theory is basically infected everything

We're at a point where being obese or being a glutton or being fat is considered a protected class

And there's this move in our society to try to normalize that And it's a pretty strange move.

I You know, I don't really keep up with pop culture entertainment But even someone is ignorant of pop culture and entertainment as me knows about like the singer

Adele who used to be, you know, morbidly obese and everyone praised her for being

You know True to herself and all this kind of stuff and she's such an inspiration and role model to all the fat women in America and everything else but then the point is that Recently I believe is pretty recently she decided that you know

She was killing herself by being you know overweight and she decided to lose some weight And so she was universally praised as kind of an inspiration for everyone and then when she lost weight then, you know, all the fat people are attacking her essentially and Basically saying, you know, how could you do this to us?

I Thought you cared about us, you know, we looked up to you, you know, and now you're just like everyone else who is

You know fat shaming us, you know, and I and in you know There's no shortage of like memes on the internet that you know diet going on a diet.

It's fat shaming yourself and and And you know, there's just You can look at you know,

YouTube videos of a doctor commenting on certain weight loss plans and look underneath them and see you know comment after comment after comment of you know people who are disturbed that they are being fat shamed by any notion of Trying to get them to help people to lose weight as if that is even a goal to pursue and so it's a problem

I mean when you're in a society that praises obesity and refuses to have any mechanism that would

Push back against that at all. I think it's I think we need more people who are Going to step into that space and speak sane words

As far as that goes I I've I've been into Target a few more times

Than you and I had seen a lot of those ads When you sent me the picture of them

You know, my first thought was is this the first time you've been in Target in a while But when but when you sent me those pictures

I I saw them the first time You know a year year and a half ago when I whenever they started putting up all those all the pictures of the new like fat people and and gay people and whatever whatever else and I just hadn't really thought about it in a while But when you sent me that picture one of the things that I thought of I didn't tell you about this

But one of the things I thought of was you know One of the one of the girls was like laying down on the floor doing a modeling pose

And I immediately thought I wonder if she needed help getting up Yeah, yeah,

I'm gonna get I'm gonna get canceled for her saying that that's all right now

You say you say I'm not allowed to joke it I'm not allowed to joke about that You know obviously this this episode the title of it the joke that I made

Even I think the fact that you're pointing out. Hey, there's this there's a weird standard of beauty trying to be set through the

Target advertisements in their store all of this to the person listening

To this episode right now. It's gonna sound incredibly offensive. I mean wildly offensive You're just not allowed to say these these kinds of things

Especially out in public where everyone can hear you saying it and they have recorded proof of you saying it

So so explain a little bit why you think that this is so Offensive to mere even to point out that someone is fat what why is this so offensive to people?

Yeah, I well there's several explanations for this that I could give

I don't even know the proper order to start so I'm just gonna say a few of them and Few few explanations, but I think

You know growing up. I just start a little bit odd about graphical. I mean growing up I Was part of a generation where?

There is still Social stigma attached to being fat so there was you know fat phobia was just a standard

You know as it's described now standard state of affairs and people didn't you know growing up in high school you didn't want to be fat and I Mean I remember you know

Getting out of high school and going into my college years all of a sudden it Transitioned to where being skeletal thin was the thing right and so you had like actresses like Calista Flockhart Whoever that was

I can't remember I only remember her name or you know Mary -Kate and Ashley Olsen one of them like turned to extreme bulimia and all of a sudden like being extremely bulimic became kind of like a

Significant thing and whenever you talk about like the idea of fat shaming instantaneously The thought that comes to mind is the thought of the 95 -pound girl

Saying to the hundred -pound girl. Hey fatty You know you need to go on a diet and quit eating so much doughnuts or something like that, right?

I mean, that's what people think when when they think about but the problem is that they picture that scenario

Like anywhere between the 95 -pound woman talk or 95 -pound teenage girl

Talking to the hundred -pound girl who's trying to you know Live up to whatever, you know subjective standard of beauty

Quote -unquote that males have you know as far as that goes you have that same kind of reaction though being applied all the way

Across the board to the 600 -pound person, right? Who you say hey, you can't even stand up without it being a triumphant act of bravery, right and so like we're

We're living in a society right now that it is unable to distinguish Like those two things in a fundamental way.

So a part of it like that's why it's such an offensive question to ask us because Instantaneously, we've like collapsed

Anything in any, you know weight in every weight from you know 95 pounds to 600 pounds and we have the same moral reaction to any kind of pushback

In a way that's kind of insane when you think about it So part of it's that I think part of it is we're deeply infected by a moral relativism

I remember going to Bible College one of the things that my one of my professors says is that Christians live in an axiomatic

Schizophrenia is what he said and that's just a fancy way of saying Essentially we have a category for objective truth, you know, despite what the postmoderns say which truth is relative and everything else

So we were pushing back on hey, it's not your truth And I mean this was 15 years ago going to school or whatever.

It was 20 20 years ago. I can't remember now, but We post modernism is a thing moral relativism is a thing where there's no such thing as objective truth well, the

Christians were pushing back on that, but then we you know handed it that over with Back in terms of axiomatic our values.

We didn't believe in something like objective beauty, right? So we had embraced moral relativism as it related to the category of beauty

So we thought you know beauty is in the eye of the beholder, right? and we thought that for years like beauty is in the eye of the beholder and there is no objective standard of beauty and But that's just you know, that's a lie.

The Bible describes Rachel as being beautiful in both form and appearance and and of Leah Leo was said her eyes were

Weak right or delicate or whatever else? So she had pretty eyes and you know to use a crass expression

Rachel was the whole package, right? And I know you're not allowed to use meat terms related to women without like triggering all the feminists

But I mean that's I'm just I'm just trying to say like that like there is an objective standard of beauty that exists in the world and You know if you that like as Christians we have to believe in that kind of thing

But when you give up everything over to relativism, then it just resolves as hey your preference you like skinny people, you know

I like huge people, right? Who's to say who's more beautiful and it's like well the Bible, right?

So I come in the Bible has a lot to say about that So I think part of it is like we have this moral indignation that's related to What I'm trying to say is there's this moral and like moral reaction that Any instance of pushing back on glut on gluttony at all is put as the 95 pound girl to the hundred pound girl

We've embraced moral relativism essentially, which now means that like we don't have a category for objective beauty anymore you know in terms of like Sociology one of the things that's happened is critical theories infected everything.

And so now we have you know obese people as being a protected class of people and so because they're a protected class of people you have to basically affirm them in their identity and any

Push back upon that is considered basically a civil rights kind of issue, too and so I think then factor in the fact that You know,

I think Pastors have failed to speak to the issue of gluttony for many many years now.

It's just been kind of a ceasefire. That's Been put on that and then you factor into the fact that you know that the fact that you know

Americans have though, you know One of the worst diets in the history of the human race and all that combined means that we just have a problem

We're not really allowed to talk about for a variety of reasons and there's other reasons too, but that's just a few

Reasons why it feels like it's mortally offensive. Well, let me say this too I mean like because of critical theory one of the things that happens is that Like whenever you're dealing with a protective class, right, so whether it's a

Sexual orientation class Quote unquote whether it's a minority class quote -unquote

Perceived victim class quote -unquote Or you know relate to the body positive positivity movement like a class of Weight or size

This is considered a protective class and the rules for all of these classes is attack on one is an attack on all

Does that make sense? Mm -hmm. So when President Trump said that like Rosie O'Donnell was a fat idiot or something like that, right?

It's like You're not allowed to laugh Harrison When he said when he said that she was a fat

I mean like now you're gonna get thrown into the category too because you're laughing at the one But here's the thing. I think I was already lumped into the category.

I've already loved myself. That ship is sail Here's the thing though when you like when he said that about her

What did the media say over and over and over again after that like Trump attacks women, right?

It's like well, no, he doesn't attack women. What do you mean? He attacks women like like what are you talking about?

He just said that Rosie O'Donnell was a fat idiot, right? Like is she a fat idiot or not, right like that's the point like is she a fat idiot like that's

Like that doesn't have to do like all women are not Rosie O'Donnell Right, so no one says like when like so that like there's an asymmetrical amount of rules there

I mean when people like the media says incessantly that Trump is an idiot, right? And they've even had ads about him being overweight right now, but no one thinks oh, that's an attack on men, right?

Well, you don't have that attack because it's not a protected class And so part of like why this question is so offensive is because like obesity now is treated as a protected victim class

Essentially that you must universally praise and any criticism of the one means you criticize all so that's why you can't even ask the question

How fat does a person have to be? Before you fat shame it's all viewed under the same lens of attack on one is attack on all does that make sense?

Uh -huh. Yeah So, I guess I guess just I kind of want to know your perspective on all of this since you said it started out with the

With you know, the 95 -pound girl telling the hundred -pound girl to lose some weight fatty

Are you are you surprised it seems kind of like a sudden shift in my mind

It's probably hasn't been but in my mind it seems like it has been a bit of a sudden shift

Are you surprised at all? at the fact that We've basically gone to the complete

Opposite end of the spectrum in terms of how we view weight now. I mean, yes and no.

I mean, I'm All of it shocking like when you think about all the intersectional

Classes and everything else. I mean, we're like the level of insanity. It's I must be on parody at this point

I mean like to tell a transgender person that they need to be true to themselves and basically mutilate their entire body and And you know

Basically destroy their heritage or any chance that they'll ever have biological children for the rest of their life and because of some, you know

Mistaken notion that they're born the wrong gender. I mean all of that like it's not it's insane

I mean when you think about it in the level of insanity, it's just comprehensive almost at every single level so there's there's a sense in which

It's like that people have to say how stupid Can we possibly get right?

Yeah, like how stupid can we pop? I mean and like with every new like Every new revelation in the news cycle.

It's just like we're just reaching new levels of stupidity and it's just like breathtaking how dumb

Us supposedly enlightened people can possibly be at this point. And so there's a sense in which it's shocking But then there's another sense in which

I think once you can kind of see the writing on the wall For a long time now with the body positive stuff.

I mean, it's an insane conclusion like and there's obviously health Like so I mean there's settled, you know actual good science to talk about like all the preventable illnesses that can be

Caused by keeping yourself in reasonable proportion and everything else I mean, it's just like there's so many preventable diseases like heart disease and you know it for certain forms of cancer and everything else that just are largely affected by Diet and just you can see physically the all the problems that I mean

Imagine the 400 pound person climbing the stairs and all out of breath, you know And barely make it up and all the knee pain problems in the back problems

You know the All the you know erectile dysfunction Everything that comes from and there's so many problems that come from being obese to the point where why would you want to praise that?

As a society as a virtue like it seems insane But at the same time I think it is the kind of thing that Once you see how the game works and your eyes are open that once something is starting to be considered a protected class

You can extrapolate out if you have some sort of forethought and you you're looking and you're paying attention

You're watching you can see where the trajectory is going And so I guess soon as like for instance gay between the new black, right?

You saw how that script worked itself out And then when you see a similar thing is happening with the you know

Being obese or being able -bodied right able, but you gotta check your able -bodied privilege. We know how this goes, right?

It's kind of you can see the writing on the wall you start trying to What you do is you end up praising a vert vice as a virtue and demanding that everyone else praise it and all the rules

Predictable rules apply. Does that make sense? Mm -hmm. So it's shocking in the level of idiot idiocy that is there

But then it's like yeah separate. We've seen this playbook before Yeah, yeah that makes sense.

It feels like Romans one in the worst way possible Basically Like well, and that's what

Romans one says. Hey, you know, not only did they commit these things But they give hearty approval of those who do so as well

And that's what's being demanded is that you praise these vices at every point, right? Unthinkingly, right and so, you know, you're you're saying

Using terms like vices. It seems like you're indicating. Hey, these things are are really really bad

When it comes to scripture, you know, is it safe to assume that You know being fat is sinful or is it just unwise like for your health?

What what exactly does scripture tell us about being fat?

Though is there like a thou shalt not be fat somewhere that we can that we can go to real quick This is

I think it's a It's a hard question to answer like in terms of in a simplistic way and because it's a hard question to answer

I think essentially what's happened is that There's been a lot of lat a lot more latitude given to this kind of topic then should be

But no pun intended But But anyways, um, no,

I think so, let me see if I can try to I would say there doesn't seem to be in the

Bible a There's obviously not a specific thou shalt not be fat kind of thing and So there's that Now at the same time there's a lot of passages in the

Bible which condemn gluttony, okay, so Deuteronomy 21 20 talks about what to do if you have a stubborn and rebellious son and You know part of the there's a instruction there

That's offensive at a different level because and maybe we could do a podcast on that at some point

But basically the instruction under the law is if you have a stubborn and rebellious son You take him out to the elders of the city gate and you're stoned him

But then it says he will not obey our voice. He is a glutton and a drunkard So it's like that seemed to be like Significant moral issues you read through Proverbs or several verses that are related to like the idea of gluttons

So be not among drunkards or among gluttonous eaters of meat. I guess we need to leave

America, right? but so that's in the language of wisdom of Proverbs 23 21 for the drunkard and the glutton will come to poverty and slumber clothe them

Proverbs 28 7, you know, be careful your friends are the one who keeps Essentially is what it's saying. The one who keeps the law is a son with understanding but a companion of gluttons shames his father, right?

So, you know you read through the Bible you have this idea of gluttony Being a significant moral issue.

It's a matter of wisdom at certain points But then it's you know, you might want to not have friends who are gluttons not be a companion of gluttons

Are you gonna bring shame? So it is something that should be shameful, right? At Jesus he was accused of being a companion of he or he's confused accused of being a glutton and a drunkard, right?

And then, you know Titus 1 2 of the Cretans Characteristic of the Cretans the prophets of our own said

Cretans are always liars evil beasts lazy gluttons I mean, this is the moral category and so I think it's easy to attach yours yourself to this idea of being a glutton and being someone who is intemperate with his

Eating of food and so but but I think what the issue with the glutton is is

Like a glutton is a person essentially who doesn't have self -control as it relates to eating, right?

Mm -hmm. Now what? Makes that complicated is that there are obviously

I think people with stronger metabolisms in the world than others so I had a friend who basically, he's in his

Mid 30s and you know The guy could eat whatever he wanted to eat and he could never gain weight because he had some sort of medical condition

It's like well, that's a problem. I wish I had you know As far as that goes, but I mean,

I I think there's There's some sort of difficulty here as it relates to defining

I wouldn't want to say that it's a sin to necessarily be fat depending on how you define it but gluttony is a real moral issue and I think

I could just speak to my own kind of experience here and Try to explain why it's a little bit complicated

Yeah, I growing up. I you know, I was in high school. I was an athlete. I played basketball eight hours a day

I mean I you know in high school. I weighed 135 pounds and Towards the beginning of high school and towards baby basically by the end of high school

I was about 155 max, but that was 1 % body fat the 3 % body fat range

And like there's nothing I could do to gain weight. I mean my parents like Had five kids and I basically spent my whole childhood hungry, right?

They couldn't feed me fast enough, right and so I learned to eat like an athlete right and so then going going into college.

It was funny I mean, it's just like all of a sudden I transitioned into more of a steady sedentary lifestyle

And I never really learned I didn't have to diet or Really? I mean I spent all day long

Exercising anyways, I could eat as much as I wanted and then all of a sudden in the college is like I I you know

Have all the same habits. I go to Taco Bell three times a day Now that I have money, right?

Three times a day. Were you eating breakfast at Taco Bell? Then all of a sudden

I blow up right and it's just like what in the world like But then it's funny

I It's funny because it really did take me like It took me a good number of years to figure out what was going on and I would say that In a simplistic way just to be a little bit autobiographical here as it relates to this.

I Never learned how to eat healthy right and my understanding of like what appropriate size portions were was

Significantly flawed and I really didn't understand anything about nutrition or how any of that worked and so part of it was it's like, okay

Well, I'm gonna eat less and maybe that'll help out help out a little bit and you know Drink diet drinks and do do all the things but then the problem was it's just like you're still living in America Eating one of the worst diets in the history of the world, right?

And so part of some would argue one of the best diets in the world In terms of taste in taste

Maybe not so much maybe not so much in hell Well, I think right for me, you know

I I gained a bunch of weight in my early college years and I mean I it was a source of like trouble for me and I didn't really know what to do to get it off because no matter

What I did I couldn't I couldn't be like I was in high school And I you know, the problem was

I chalked it all up to well, you know I have a different mode to metabolism than everyone else or something like that, right? Or you know, maybe there's some lucky people out there who just you know can be thin but that I'm not one of them but the problem is it's just like you know you the more you it

It took me to my early 30s to figure out what skinny people were actually doing in order to maintain their skinniness, right?

And one of the things that they don't do is drink a two liter of Mountain Dew a day or something like that, right?

I mean, there's so much ridiculous amount of sugar in that, you know if you want to be fat drink like regular soda,

I just look on the back of a On the back of a 20 ounce and there's like what like 70 grams.

Oh, it's bad I mean if you want to be fat just drink but but I mean the thing is you cannot be a glutton.

Here's the thing You could be fat like fatter than you should be you could be disproportionate, right?

Objectively and you know eat once a day pretty modest diet or something like that in terms of quantity

But you're just drinking a bunch of sugar drinks all day long, right? Mm -hmm And so I don't know that there's some kind of that.

Here's why it's complicated I don't know that there's some kind of moral condemnation against that kind of person who's just ignorant about How true that yeah,

I mean to in it in like that kind of person that they may not be a glutton They may have self -control.

They just may be eaten and all the wrong stuff and don't understand They don't have a plan to get there.

And so I don't think that there's Like some sort of simplistic answer to this like at all points.

I mean Again, I don't know much about celebrities, but I do know that you know, if Kim Kardashian wants to lose weight

I've learned somehow Over the course of my life that what she does is she eats a chicken salad every meal

With no dressing on it and drinks water, right? No And so hey, you know, but I'm just trying to say that that's like like this the people who are actually

Look the way that they look it's not like because they have some sort of miraculous

Metabolism in and the main is because they're making choices That to eat different things then like they're not, you know going to KFC and you know having a plate full of macaroni and cheese and plate full of potato wedges and a plate full of you know mashed potatoes with their

Fried chicken fingers, you know all with their you know 44 ounce

Pepsi and All the ranch dressing and everything else They're making the kind of choices to maintain their appearance that you don't want to make, you know

So I would say in the simple answer the question is it's just it's complicated I don't but I mean obviously at some point somewhere along the line when you're at 400 pounds you know, let's just all acknowledge that if you're 400 pounds you've

Whatever you're doing. You're you've crossed the line right and you're such a poor steward of your body now that like you

Functionally probably aren't able to really fulfill the responsibilities God's given you in your life be a good, you know friend good

Husband good wife good father good mother if you can't even get up off the couch without being out of breath something has gone awry at that point to where I Yeah, probably a lot of it's related to what you're eating and probably a lot of it's related to how much you're moving to No, so does that make sense?

So I don't know that there's a simplistic kind of calculus But I would say that most people should probably

Lose a little weight So I'm gonna be faithful.

Okay. Okay so in order to be faithful when you say in order to be faithful in order to be faithful to Just all of the various responsibilities that have been given to man.

Is that what you mean? Yeah, sure so I mean like part of the issue is gluttony and that like I think you can eat a horrible diet and Be self -controlled you not be the kind of person who's you know

Hiding in your closet eating like a box of chips ahoy or something, right? Mm -hmm

Have your food stashes all over the house, I think I think you could be the kind of person just eating a horrible diet that you know isn't in very good proportion and still be self -controlled and it's just like how you may want to think about like Being a little bit better steward of your body for a sake of wisdom

But then, you know, there's a verse in Hebrews that is I think relevant to this and You know

Hebrews 12 1 it says since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses Let us lay aside every weight it says

Notice what I did there Every way

Let's lay aside every weight and sin which clings so closely and let us run with endurance

Before us now that weight there Let me suggest in the nicest possible way that that could be literal weight, right?

So like the weight is different from the sin category So you have sins that are clearly sin, but like there are things that slow you down in the race, right?

and part of that just could be like Literal weight, right?

I mean it could slow you down the race. It could make it to where like hey, you know what?

It's harder to play with my kids because I'm you know 70 pounds overweight, right?

You know what? It's harder to enjoy my wife being intimate with my wife because I'm suffocating her to death trying to It's harder to let my husband enjoy me, right

Physically because I I detest the way I look because I refuse to make good choices

Or something like that and so they're like, you know when your weight becomes an issue that's like hey, you know,

I I'm having all these heart problems because I'm carrying around so much extra weight, you know

I'm having trouble walking upstairs without getting winded. I'm having trouble standing up off a couch, you know

I you know, I haven't I don't want to ever play with my kids because it's too much work I mean like you might be amazed at how much energy you actually have

I mean, I can't tell you how many times I've seen adults look at kids and like oh, I wish I had such energy It's like, you know what?

You may have a lot of that if you would lose 60 70 pounds You may be surprised at how much energy you actually have and it's no shock

Like you don't know why you're so tired and lethargic and sluggish all the time It might just because you have some weights that you need to lay aside for the sake of being faithful Yeah, maybe drink some more water

Oh Well, hey, I mean that's a lot of weight loss. Honestly, it's just drinking water. Yeah I've noticed that a lot

I I I used to drink a lot of soda and and I still have periods where I will for like a week or so I'll drink like a lot of soda, but then

I I have tried to be a lot more conscientious about Drinking water.

I've like this big water bottle that I try and Drink at least one, but hopefully more than one of it throughout the day and Number one,

I normally just feel a lot better like my head doesn't hurt as much Because I'm not so dependent on the caffeine that I'm getting from all those drinks, but then too

I'm just not drinking, you know 70 grams of sugar however much it is per can of soda with with each drink

I'm just you know, I'm getting water instead. And so I normally feel a lot better I also when you're talking about the

When you're talking about all the food stuff, I immediately thought of my favorite comedy movie of all time dodgeball when you have the when you have

Ben Stiller's character who is who is the Is it Ben Stiller?

I I think it's been so it's been I Forget now because I haven't seen it in so long

But he's like the fit guy who owns the really awesome gym that's gonna buy out the terrible gym from the main characters and then he loses all his stuff and he get he loses his

Gym, and so he's just like stuck at home eating fast food and stuff all the time and like blows up to be

Like 600 pounds or whatever and I was thinking about that. I was like, man They you're just not allowed to make movies like that anymore.

They don't make them as good as they used to I guess The Bible talks about the slugger it is so lazy that he refuses to eat or he's you know

I'm able to you know, lift his fingers from the bowl, you know again and so it's like you picture the big, you know, 600 pound person with the

You know Yeah, yeah, you're not you're not allowed to make you're just not allowed to make movies like that anymore

So That's funny so you kind of You're making a distinct earlier in your answer you talked about You know churches really haven't talked about Gluttony very much and I I can't in my own personal life

I don't know that I can think of a single time that I've ever heard anyone talk about gluttony in any kind of way really not even like just kind of Like off You know off topic comment made during a sermon.

I really haven't heard much about it at all Why are but then we all we all realize it's a sin.

Like we said earlier gluttony is but then obviously, you know, we live in a society that is is

Drastically like mishandling their weight and even even

Taking it so far as to having I think I think heart related issues are like the number one cause of death in our country and I think a large

Part of that is because of our diets and our weight in general as a society

So it seems like one of those issues where if you're a Christian looking at things and and you can see that that this issue is actually not just like a

Not only You know a spiritual life or death situation, but it's actually literally a physical life or death situation

For a lot of people where you're drastically shortening your lifespan. So why is it that that churches aren't really talking about this at all?

gluttony Yeah, well, I mean I think Related to the factors mentioned before I mean, it's obviously a problem

So just some statistics here it you know, obesity is increasing.

So from 1999 to 2000 so from about from 1999 to 2017 essentially a beast the obesity prevalence increased from about 30 % to about 42 % in the

United States and Then there's all the problems that are associated with it. So like we're getting fatter as a country that's part of the problem and then you can have like a little kids movie like Wally that basically is

Projecting this out in the future. We're in the future. All human beings will be you know, 600 pounds on their motor 600 pounds is the new standard.

Yeah, so we're getting fatter as a society. I mean you can just look at you know, the old you know

Think about this like, you know, you go to McDonald's and like that single cheeseburger meal

Like a single cheeseburger With like a small fry Mm -hmm that used to be

Like a meal that would satisfy a normal adult in like the 50s or something

Can you imagine eating that and feeling full no What was happening is like the meals are getting bigger and bigger and our

Expectations about what's normal or getting bigger and so part of it is just because gluttony is a issue of self -control there's plenty of people who are just eating this awful

American diet and They're not really Sneaking cookies, you know, they're not eating.

They're not just like Sitting on the couch going through a bag of Doritos or something like that, right?

And but then they can't control their weight and they don't know why and so I think part of that is just like led people to just I don't think we understand nutritionally enough and part of the part of the thing is just to give

Some understanding is I mean you have like, you know fad diet after fad diet and conflicting information

I mean like when I was You know when I was growing up everything was the low -fat stuff and so you have to you know

Go on lose weight, you know low -fat stuff and then now it's like well, you know, you need high fat, you know And and so what is it?

You know, is it low fat or is a high fat or you know? you know, and I think that are Like there's a thousand nutritional theories out there and no one knows what the right way is

I mean, I remember when you know, what's that guy from Subway? You remember that guy?

Oh Jared something Yeah, yeah,

I don't think it's with Subway anymore But I mean, I remember, you know, I eat a six -inch

Subway a day in order to lose weight It's like now it's like bread, you know, whatever and so So I think there's a lot of conflicting stuff and people are confused and you know

The diet the diets horrible and it's increasing and we're all addicted to carbs and sugar and everything else and and so I think part of it's just like There are factors that you know

There's just a lot of ignorance and just way too much information And we don't know how to sort through it all and we end up fatter and everyone's just like well

Lay off, you know, so part of it's that part of it's now though so I think that There's been that kind of thing like just the ignorance about it in general

And then, you know, we've been affected by relativism to as it relates to it, you know Like we don't believe in objective beauty anymore

In a way that is irrational and and so so there's that but then

But then now I think there's also, you know social pressure You know related to some of those things as well like the body positive movement and and so I think we've just kind of we've laid off of this for a long time now and and And you know,

I there's been a lot of churches who are like here's the thing I mean like if you want to be more cynical about it, there's so many churches.

Hey look A lot of the big givers, you know, typically are heavy people, you know

So like you don't want to go after like you're here like, you know as America is getting fatter and fatter and fatter

You don't want to go after your donors man, you know, so it's kind of been put in this respectable Don't bite the hand that feeds

Yeah, literally So, I think that there's there's a lot of things like that that are factoring into it, but the point is yeah hey, we now we

You know Now okay when it when it comes to the actual

Question that we were asking at the beginning of this episode Could you just explain to us a little bit of of or maybe provide a definition even for For fat shaming what what we're meaning when we're talking about fat shaming itself

Yeah, I mean so as I said I mean right now when you think of what fat shaming is is fat shaming is basically just any attempt that a person might have to Make a person feel bad for their weight.

Okay, so I mean at this point fat shaming is like You know this ever a more morphous

Concept that is constantly expanding to basically be any attempt a person has

To criticize a person for their weight or get them to change No matter how big or unhealthy they actually are so and I mean

I think it and I come a Negative sense. It would be like any like refusal to positively praise people for actually being fat as well so basically, it's any

You know any moral attempt to push back at a person for being overweight if that makes sense

Mm -hmm so So I mean when it comes to Merriam -webster fat shaming the actor practice of subject subjecting someone perceived as fat perceived as fat not just actually

Notice how you've slipped in the moral relativism there, right? Right actor practice of subjecting someone perceived as fat or overweight as if it's just like there's no objective

There's no there's no scientific way to determine if someone's fat or not

Monster But the actor practice of subjecting someone and perceived as fat or overweight is as to criticism or mockery

So you can't even criticize them at all, right? That's what I mean. It's just like basically it's just there's a

Any attempt at moral reform for a gluttonous person or an overweight person or to say hey you need to make some lifestyle changes

So even any criticism at all any attempt to say hey you need to change is viewed as fat shaming

Up until mockery and so I mean, yes I think that there's obviously something morally wrong with the 95 pound girl looking at the hundred pound girl and saying hey fatty

You know, why don't you quit eating so much french fries or something, right? Like Like You're so repulsive like, you know,

I can see a Slight muffin top, you know poking out over your jeans you disgusting pig, you know

Like that's there's something wrong with that kind of thing to where like that. That's not helpful.

That's not edifying. That's I that's Like it doesn't pass

The biblical test of what it means to love someone and everything else and so I mean but like like you have to understand that there's a vast difference between that and Refusing to buy the second pizza for the 600 pound person who's laying in the bed all day long

There's there's there has to be some sort of moral difference there between the two And so now it's just there's a universal ceasefire that's declared on this topic to where you can't

Say the obvious And everything's you know from the 95 pound to the 600 pound thing is all viewed as the exact same moral action

Which is just insane, you know Mm -hmm So, you know a lot of people when they hear that it's this is a weird thing that you pointed out earlier

But when a lot of people hear These types of phrases when they hear things like fat shaming

Immediately what your mind does is it jumps to the worst?

possible version of what that could be and then applies it to every situation in Which someone uses the term fat shaming whether or not that's what actually happened right and what

I mean is you think of the when you hear the term fat shaming you think of the person who's going out and Looking at the the fat target model and saying hey you big giant heifer

You know like quit stuff in your face so much like whatever like basically, just taking it to an

Area, that's no longer simply like confronting What's actually going on in that person's life, but actually just Like making fun of them right for no other purpose than just to make fun of them that's what people immediately jump to when they hear that term fat shaming, but then most the time honestly

That's not even happening like I can't I go online all the time and I see I see posts on different social media platforms where a person will have

Their little video they made or you know before and after pictures that they've taken where they they have like a year -long journey or a five -year long journey of They started out really overweight like 300 pounds, and then they discipline themselves

They change their diet they start going to the gym regularly and then by the end of it

They look like a totally different person most of the time or and and you know a lot of times even if they don't look

Crazy different they still look way healthier, you know and they they tell people that their lives are definitely better now that they've lost weight and a

Lot of times you have people in the comments coming in and saying hey you you can't fat shame people like this

You know and it's like obviously We're taking one term and we're applying it to two completely different things right

And so so probably when most people hear the title of this episode they immediately think of the person going out and Hurling insults at someone just for the sake of hurling insults at someone and not thinking hey

Maybe we should just confront these people who are essentially killing themselves a lot of times.

Yeah. Well, yeah Well, so keep on going the the question is why is that happening or Well, that's more just an observation that was that was going to lead me

Essentially to saying that should be our response is The latter, you know confronting people for the sake of like their own well -being spiritually and physically

So, so how exactly Should Christians respond, you know to friends that are fat

Like is there a is there a moral obligation to confront them, you know, I know I know we're saying hey, it's kind of hard to Qualify as the sin is this sinful, you know

Maybe it's maybe once you get to a certain a certain Way, yeah, there's a threshold where it's like, all right now it is now it is officially sin, you know

But it seems like it's a little more complicated than that But then we're kind of being

Pressured by society because of the way the terms are being used to never say anything about it

So so what exactly are Christians supposed to do? Are they supposed to not really, you know, say much about it and and Just hope that people learn or should they confront should they confront their overweight friends or you know

What what are we supposed to do with that? Well, I think you need to reject the moral calculus that you know, basically it equivocates and compares to Vastly different things and collapses them all under the same kind of terminology and we're doing this at every level

Also, so I mean the issue is once you label something a protected class

Then like that's the move that's being run across the board, right? So if you think about the race discussion, that's what's happening at the race discussion.

Like if you were to say hey, you know just look at rap videos and and you see the debauchery and the

Degenerate kind of behavior that's happening there and you say hey, this is a destructive culture, right? Mm -hmm well, you can't say that because like Being Black is considered to be a protected class.

And so an attack on one is an attack on them all right? And so it's like but no like it's like hey But isn't ghetto culture like destructive and like isn't it bad to like have your b -words and your hoes, you know?

That you put on these rap videos and you know They're dressed like skanks and hookers and you know doing the things that they're doing and referring to them that way

And like isn't this like you're dressing like criminals and acting like isn't this like bad?

Like isn't this negative isn't this affecting people in real time? But it's like you have to universally praise it because it's a protected class, right?

And so the same thing is happening with So that move was done with the race discussion

But then it's also being done with the homosexual or the sodomite discussion to to where it's a you know

It's a protected class and like any pushback against sodomy is now like basically the moral equivalent of like basically saying that you want to you know,

Hang a sodomite or something, right? Mm -hmm, and it's just like well and now the same things happening with the fat shaming thing

It's just like once there we put it into the protected class Then a Chris criticism of one is criticism of all and there's no, you know pushback allowed

So I think you have to reject that you have to say hey, this is not logical and this is not rational And that Mike there are there are vast differences between the 95 -pound girl, you know being picked on by the you know popular girl at school and You know telling the 600 -pound person.

Hey, I'm not gonna buy you another pizza. Sorry go get your own pizza, you know So so yes,

I mean and I think with that pushback I think because it's hard to know

I don't think you want to adopt some sort of I Like Because there's some subjectivity involved in some a manner of like you're reading a person's behavior and it's subjectively determined meaning like hey

You know, I don't see the person sneaking cookies all the time, you know I don't see them like having like stashes of snacks all over the place that they're trying to eat when no one's looking and that Kind of weirdness

They're just eating normal meals and maybe they have an unhealthy diet and you know It's just like they're not like maybe they're eat a little more than what

I think is reasonable for them But I'm not the ultimate judge of all of what self -control is I do think there's a lot of attitude that people have and I do think yeah, it's not like well

Yeah, you know like if you're the 90 -pound person your standard of what morbid obesity is is like a 10 -pound variant

And if you're you know at 250 or whatever your standard of morbid obesity is 100 pounds more than you or something, you know

Wherever you happen to be at moment, which is reasonable, you know I don't think I don't think you want to kind of be the police as far as that goes to where you are the one who subjectively determines

Like what is an appropriate level of? disproportionate body, you know or something like that, but So, I don't want to say that but I'm ever simpler

Ferguson once he was given a discussion on this and you know He was given practical wisdom at this point and he was saying, you know

I try to keep myself in reasonable proportion, right? And so, you know, I drink the milk with the blue cap on it and The red cap or whatever, but you know what that was his plan

But I think that kind of insight to say hey, you know God did make us in his image and I don't know that we're reflecting his image very well if we're just grossly out of proportion

Mm -hmm, right? And so maybe we should try to keep ourself in a reasonable proportion and have a lot of latitude as far as what that looks

Like but I think where the rubber meets the road is if your loved one is just unable to perform the task

That God has given them to perform because of their weight. I think at that point, you know

There is a clear moral kind of imperative to say you need to do better, you know Mm -hmm and like meaning like hey

I You know when we got married You looked a certain way and then after he got married you gained 150 pounds and now you never want me to touch you again or look at you again, or you know

You're grossed out by the thought of intimacy or whatever. It's like or you know, you're You know winded at the thought

I'm trying to play with the kids you're constantly telling your kids to go away You know or you don't want to go to church because you might have to climb those stairs and you know

It's just too much for you. It's gonna hurt your knee or or you know you're not able to clean the house because your back hurts so much because you have all this extra weight on you and you just I think when it becomes like when your health is

A weight in the Hebrews 12 sense that's keeping you from faithfulness. I think at that point you like that's a good

Way to step in to those kind of relationships and say hey look, you know, there's some subjectivity here

You're unable to do the thing it's God called you to do because of your body

Because you know you're because of how you're taking care of yourself at this point. It becomes a moral imperative for you to Resolve the issue.

Mm -hmm. Does that make sense? I would latch on to that as a good way to You know an anchor in the midst of a foggy subject, you know

Yeah, so so I guess essentially what you're saying is when it comes to how fat does someone have to be here before it's okay to That shame them, you know, essentially when they're at the point that they can't really faithfully perform the

Responsibilities that they've been entrusted with right. Is that the answer? I think that's a safe answer

And that's that's not the question. I ended up asking, you know with this last one You skillfully answered it.

Anyway, so yeah, I think that's the safest way to address the subject is is is to say there's that and I mean,

I don't know that there's a I Think you know in practical terms You know people would be forgiven to think.

Oh, yeah, you know you basically Whatever standard of weight you're at is acceptable and and everything else and then you know

Anyone who is heavier than you you're gonna pick on or something like that And I would say well, there may be some like Psychological tendencies in that way, but I do think

You know If you're filled if you've full of joy and peace and long -suffering and gentleness and meekness and kindness and faithfulness and self -control

I would say there's you know There's probably a lot of freedom as far as that goes and there's obviously more important things in peak physical health, right?

And and it's a problem I mean, it's just like when people when people hear you say hey, you know

Maybe you should try to like I mean, there's a dumb move that happens where it's like Hey, you need to like take your health more.

Seriously. They instantaneously look at you and say hey, well, I'm sorry I'm never gonna be that fitness model on Instagram or whatever with the six -pack apps and you know,

I'm sorry I'm not good enough for you. And it's just like hey, come on Why are we going there, you know, like we're just like I think

You don't have to go there, you know with it No one has to go there right like it's just but any pushback is taken like like that Do you want me to be you know, those people on the magazines like no

I think you're unable to do the things that God's called you to do and you you you have to be faithful, right?

And like so What is that gonna look like? Right, right Do you think it it might mean like the

Proverbs 31 woman for instance clothes herself with strength, right? But that doesn't mean like she it's an

Olympic athlete it means that she But it also means she's not the sluggard, right?

Mm -hmm. The same thing is true of men like, you know, like they what I think if you can Be faithful to the things

God has called you to and You know do well at them and not just barely get by That kind of determines how serious, you know, you should take this and so right

So the last two questions I'll ask you the first one is Obviously the pushback and I know we kind of talked about we've really kind of already answered this

But it might be helpful to have kind of a concise Answer to it as well.

We've answered it all throughout the episode But then it might be nice to have a concise kind of answer to this too in the episode

But a lot of people the critique they're gonna have is hey, this isn't a very Loving thing to do right to quote -unquote fat shame people.

This isn't very loving. You're not being gentle You're not being kind. You're not being meek So so what what would your response be to the person that has that kind of?

pushback when it comes to the assertion that we actually should confront people when when their their

Weight is becoming such an issue that they can't perform Their normal duties and that we also even need to be talking about.

Hey, look gluttony is a real sin that the probably like 90 % of our society if not more 90 % of our society is

Committing right now. So what would your response be to that that type of pushback?

Sure, I mean I Think just it's a you know do argument ad absurdum or whatever.

I argue from the extreme I mean, I think everyone knows with the 600 -pound person That a person doesn't get 600 pounds laying in a bed unable to stand

Without people in their life who are enabling them, right? so like in order to maintain that level of weight you have to eat like two pizzas a day or more and Someone is buying those pizzas for that person

I just watched my 600 -pound life and you'll see right there's always the enabler there and that may you know

Our society's definition of love is to basically give people whatever they want, right?

Mm -hmm. That's the definition of you give them whatever they want you and what you have to do is give them what's called

Universal positive regards. So basically you have to uncritically praise everything that they Do and choose as their own identity and everything else and so like there's and that's what people want

They want an universal positive guard. They just want you know, tell me I'm special tell me I'm wonderful.

Tell me I'm perfect Tell me I'm pretty just the way I am right and that's why Adele is an inspiration to all the young fat singers

You know and young fat girls who were made fun of in high school and all that is because they just want to be universally praised for who they are right mm -hmm and Empowered to be their true and authentic self and the problem is it's just it's a lie from the pit of hell.

It's destructive It's harmful to people. So that person who's laying there and that they're That if you imagine if you understand what they're doing to their body, they're understanding what they're like even if they lose weight, they're gonna have all these like Significant sheets of fat that are hanging off of their bones, you know, mm -hmm like they're permanently, you know

Scarring themselves and mutilating themselves for the rest of their life by the choices that they're making and they're dramatically cutting down their lifespan and They're dramatically, you know harming themself and harming everyone around them

I mean like what kind of mom is it that's just laying in a bed 600 pounds, right? What kind of quality of life is that like that's a extremely self -centered person

That's the slugger who you know can't even bring her hand up from the bowl or his hand up from the pole I mean like you you know, you have like the worst quality of life imaginable

You can't even enjoy the creation that God's given you and I in the way that you should right and you have all these problems

You're probably on a like a list of medication just to keep yourself going at that point, right? And so like that's not love like it's not love just to hand a you know, a drug addict drugs

Right. It's not I guess like if you're that person who thinks hey the loving thing is to give you know

The heroin addict there their next fix. I mean you're you're killing them You're an agent of destruction in their life and true love is gonna be to like say hey, you know what?

I'm not doing it and you know what like there's no one who's gonna be 600 pounds without some help, you know

I'm saying and If everyone would quit helping them they would at least get down to four, you know

Because they'd have to get their own their own stuff, you know, so So there's built -in exercise at that point

Order I mean, but look, I mean if they have a phone they're ordering their own pizza All you have to do is take the phone from them. What are they gonna do?

Mm -hmm, you know, they're not gonna get up and get it, you know until they lose about 100 pounds or 200 I mean like that's what you know, and that's like what it means like and that's the problem is it?

You know, we've lost like what it means to actually love people It's not just affirm them as beautiful and wonderful just the way they are

It is to you know Be people who actually iron sharpens iron in their life and actually Helping them like to see the things that are so obvious everyone around them.

It's like hey, you know This is a huge thing for you body image and you know part of it's because you're making a lot of bad choices

And you need to wake up, you know Mm -hmm, your life could be a hundred times better if you would repent, you know

Mm -hmm, and I'm not gonna you know be a person in your life, you know Giving you the kisses of an enemy, but I'll give you the wounds of a friend, right?

Right? So my last question isn't necessarily related directly to Weight but more focused on the gluttony aspect of everything and and it's simply you know

What what would you there might be people listening who are thinking to themselves?

Hey, maybe I'm the person who's actually Gluttonous may

Maybe I'm the person who's eating way more than I'm supposed to be eating and I'm actually dishonoring the

Lord With you know with my diet and with my self -control when it comes to what

I eat And so what would you what would you tell that person in terms of number one? How do you even figure out if you're the person who's gluttonous?

You know, it's hard to imagine. There's like a specific line where it's like hey, if you eat more than you know

X amount of McDoubles from McDonald's then then you're you're gluttonous at that point, you know, so how do you determine?

Determine whether or not you are the gluttonous person and then what would you say to encourage that person?

in terms of fighting that sin I Think no one wants to very few people want to admit that they're the gluttonous person and so it's all like oh

I'm just big -boned Just big -boned, you know That kind of thing and most people have that but then those kind of people

I would say in almost every single case In the vast majority of cases like they just Their perception of what is like normal is skewed and they don't realize it, you know, so You know some in terms of like no one's just gonna say hey, you know

I think a lot of people in that kind of category are basically just gonna say hey, you know, look I'm not Sneaking the cookies and I'm not you know,

I'm not doing all that kind of stuff, you know I don't have my food stashes all over the place. I'm not eating and throwing it up and eating some more and Benji I'm not doing that and but I just get bigger and I you know,

I don't know whatever and I said I would think that like that kind of person if like If they would listen to what

I'm saying, it would benefit them They would like what they should do is they should get a skinny person in their life that says hey

I would like to look like this person, right? Mm -hmm, and then go talk to that person and say hey, you know what as an experiment

I'm gonna eat What you eat? And only what you eat, right

Will you help wait? I want to eat what you eat and only what you eat And so I want you to tell me what you eat and I'm gonna do it whatever you eat

You know Will you be like my accountability partner? Because I think that this is just all about my genetics and like I can't help it and everything else

But I want to test that theory out And I want to eat the proportions that you eat and the exact things that you're eating

And so will you take me under your wing and just like let's just test this theory out and see right?

let's see if this is like You look the way you look because of lifestyle choices that you're making that I'm unwilling to make

Or let's see if it's because of you know Genetics and I would think that in the vast majority of cases

What that person would find is that? They look the way they look and they feel the way they feel because they're making different choices, does that make sense?

Mm -hmm and so I think Like obviously this person is not starving to death dead, you know that you wish you could look like or something, right?

Be careful there. I'm not trying to say that like that the goal of losing weight is just to get to some

You know ultimately Mainly about getting to some appearance, you know that you find desirable or something else

I'm just I'm just trying to say if you think it's all about Like if no one is gonna say hey, maybe

I'm gluttonous, right? Yeah Okay, but like what I would just say is okay to that person who has who thinks okay.

It's all about my Genetics, why don't you test it out and see you know, and you might find that that person

That you think has better genetics and you they drink water all day long, right? They don't drink all the

Mountain Dew 20 ounces or two liters or whatever and you might find that if you would modify your diet to theirs

That you would see some pretty dramatic changes. They may have learned something along the way that you haven't, you know

Yeah, yeah, I think that's pretty helpful I'm at that's not all that there is to weight loss and that's not all there is to this subject.

I'm just I'm just To that kind of person. I'm trying to answer. Well, what? Would be some practical thing.

You might say to that kind of person, right? Who to wake them up a little bit and realize that we're maybe this isn't what

I think it is, you know Mm -hmm, but I don't know if you have a push follow -up or push back on that Um, no, no,

I think I mean obviously There's probably a lot more that could be said overall in terms of that kind of person and and practical advice

But I think that's at least like a good starting place for someone Well, let me let me add this real quick.

I mean, I just I don't think we like Bible says that body exercises of little profit and that doesn't mean no profit it means of little profit and I think the goal is not to get to some

I like the goal of this kind of thing is not to Like have some sort of standard in your mind of what is perfection and hold everyone to it

And then to write of any variance from that kind of thing the point though is just to say that hey

We're in a society that now is praising vices and we need to like wake up a little bit Yeah, and the goal is to be faithful like we want to be faithful to the things

God has called us to be and if we Just uncritically here's the point if you uncritically just praise

Like behavior that is destructive Like you're gonna get destruction. You're not gonna get like Ability to honor

God and that's the impulse behind it. It's not just a is to you know, mock fat people

You know, it is to say that hey like we we've lost our way and we need to wake up, you know Yeah. Yeah, I agree.

I Okay, well, I think I think that's a good place to stop on this discussion

So, thank you Tim for all of your helpful answers This has been another episode of Bible bash.