Have You Not Read - S1:E23

Sunnyside Baptist Church

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Welcome to Have You Not Read, a podcast seeking to answer questions from the text of Scripture for the honor of Christ and the edification of the

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Saints. Before we dig into our topic, we humbly ask you to rate, review, and share the podcast.

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Thank you. I'm Dylan Hamilton and with me are Michael Durham, David Casson, and Andrew Hudson.

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Today we have a new question sent in from one of our congregants, Gwyneth. She asks, in the

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Bible, we're told to trust God to take care of us, but we are also told to make wise decisions. So is it okay to carry a weapon for defense?

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Is that trusting in ourselves instead of God? At what point is it too much? Michael, you want to take a first shot at that?

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Sure. So this is a good question, and this question manifests in some particular choices, right, about how are we going to act responsibly, wisely, consider the various obvious known threats of danger, and then how are we going to act in such a way to protect ourselves and defend our families, and so on and so forth.

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But this question overlays a deeper question, which has to do with the sovereignty of God and the responsibility of man.

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So while we trust in the sovereignty of God and we bring that mindset to bear in everything that we do, in that we fear the

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Lord, so we think of Him first and we think of Him most, and we recognize that He's in control, we still act in ways that are responsible because He has told us to be good stewards of all that He has given to us.

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Included in the list that the things that He has given to us are our bodies, and we have lots of instructions in the

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Bible about how we are to understand our bodies and how we are to treat them. And so life is a gift from the

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Lord, and in fact God says it is wrong for someone to take the life of another, it is wrong for someone to take the property of another, it is wrong for us to be irresponsible with that which

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God has bestowed to us. So we do need to take some sort of responsible measure given our personal safety, and in particular regard to carrying weapons, there was a moment where Jesus and His disciples were talking and He was reminding them about how much

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He had supplied for them, and how much God had taken care of them in the many journeys that they had taken when

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He sent them out to go teach and to labor. And in Luke 22 verse 35, and I hope this is helpful, so in Luke chapter 22 in verse 35, and He said to them, when

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I sent you without money, bag, knapsack, and sandals, did you lack anything? So they said, nothing.

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I mean there are times when we don't have enough, there are times when it is clear there's not much we can do, and at those times we are especially aware of God's protection and provision in our lives.

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Listen to verse 36, then He said to them, but now he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack, and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one.

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For I say to you that this which is written must be must still be accomplished in me, and he was numbered with the transgressors, for the things concerning me have an end.

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So they said, Lord, look, here are two swords. And He said to them, it is enough. So Jesus was taking this moment to teach

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His disciples and to prepare them for His coming death, and the traumatic events that were going to occur when they would be scattered because of Him, and He's letting them know that things are going to get difficult.

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And in this, He first, you'll notice how this works, He first reminds them that when they had nothing to go on,

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God took care of them, okay. And then He instructs them, based on the resources you have right now, do what you should to make provision for your own safety and to set aside what you need for the upcoming days, which will be difficult.

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And in regards to that, He makes sure that at least some of them have something for self -defense.

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Now later on, of course, you'll read about how Peter used the sword in the wrong way, and Jesus instructed him in that as well.

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So there is a right way to wield and use a sword, to wield and use a weapon for self -defense, that we have our

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Lord and Savior Jesus Christ advocating. Now, there are other passages that we could think of.

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What do you think, Andrew, David, Dylan? Well, you talked about self -defense, and you talked about the responsibility you have to properly care for that which

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God has given you, that includes your body, your property, your home, your wife, your family, and especially the responsibility that men have been given, but also women, mothers, and their children.

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I mean, we're in Oklahoma, you know, there are stories abound of women on the frontier defending their children in their homes.

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The men were out, you know, for days at a time. The quintessential verse that is brought up regarding Christian pacifism is, you know, turn the other cheek out of Matthew 5.

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You know, that's verses 38 and 42, you know, talking about, you know, you have heard it said, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, but I say to you, do not resist the one who is evil.

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Anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn the other one also. You know, give to the one who begs from you, do not refuse the one who would borrow from you, and that's talking about personal retaliation, talking about personal revenge.

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And what does the law of God say about personal vengeance? God says, vengeance is mine.

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And you brought up, just over the weekend, Michael, you brought up, what does the role of the state play?

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Capital punishment. That is justice. If someone, you know, comes at you, and if there's someone commits a capital crime, we have the state, we have the

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God -ordained state to help us with the proper punishment for capital offenses, of course, death.

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But we don't take that personally. We don't say, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, well, I'm gonna go take that personal vengeance.

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Then you have generational blood feuds. So we have to make sure we're dealing with the correct categories here.

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Don't mix these categories. When we're talking about self -defense, having someone say, you know, turn the other cheek, it's a completely different category.

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That's not talking about self -defense. That's talking about, don't take your personal vengeance, because God has set up another avenue for that for proper justice.

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So we're talking about personal defense. That's actually loving your neighbor.

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If I was gonna properly love my wife, and somebody came into that house and wanted to hurt her or my daughter, to just let them all,

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I'm just gonna turn the other cheek, that's a violation of how you should love your wife as yourself.

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You actually defend her and defend your family, because you love them.

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So let's make sure we keep these in proper categories. Don't mix personal vengeance with state capital offenses with personal responsibility to your family.

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You have to make sure you carefully organize those out. So I hear you bracketing on both sides this godly duty of self -defense, defense of family, and home.

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On the one hand, taking up the passage in the Sermon on the Mount, where it says, you know, turn the other cheek, and applying that too broadly to cover those areas of self -defense, family defense, home defense, that would be a misreading and a misinterpretation of turn the other cheek.

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Yes. And then on the other hand, the emphasis on a proper self -defense in the

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Scripture, we don't want that to bleed over into the area that is reserved by God's design for the state.

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That the state is to punish the evildoers, and that we are to leave room for wrath.

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Vengeance is the Lord's. He will repay. And he has a deacon named the state that is to punish those evildoers.

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Yes. So it's important that we study the Word to know where those lines are.

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And we need to think perhaps of some biblical examples, some practical working out of those principles.

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I mean Gwen's question, which is a great one, has been asked by many people throughout history.

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You know, if you're going to protect yourself, okay, you're talking about that first category.

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Protecting yourself, your family, your property from, you know, an evildoer. We're not talking about personal vengeance. You know, we're not talking about these other areas.

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We're talking about personal defense. It says, is it a lack of trust in God to defend yourself?

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So trusting God means we think of him first. We think of him most.

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We, rather than, well, in all your ways acknowledge him. Do not lean on your own understanding, but in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your path straight.

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So when we're thinking perhaps, what do you do? Okay, hypothetical situation.

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The Bible does this. The Bible says, okay, here's a hypothetical situation. It's night, and there's a man in your home.

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What do you do? He doesn't belong there. You don't know if he's there to kill you. You don't know if he's there to steal from you.

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You don't know what to do. What does the Lord say through Moses in the case law?

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You may put him down. Yes. That you may act in self -defense, in that if you kill him in your forceful resistance, you were not guilty of his blood.

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And so trusting the Lord would mean believing him when he says that, right?

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So that would be, I'm going to trust in the Lord and his wisdom here, and I should know that I am free to forcefully defend myself, my family, and my property against an unknown, undefined threat, and that is a righteous thing to do no matter the outcome.

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Is he wounded? Did I put his eye out? My eyes not going to be put out for that. Did I kill him?

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I'm not going to be executed for that. This was a proper and righteous defense. And so this is a specific example, you know, to help us understand.

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Now, of course, if this man happened to be a neighbor, and he was continually finding ways to move the boundary markers and steal land, perhaps sometimes coming over and filching a lamb, and being a nuisance, and maybe spreading slander about you, and this went on for a couple of years.

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And let's say you didn't really handle it right. Maybe you couldn't get the witnesses to prove your case, and your anger and your bitterness grows and grows and grows against this man to the point where one day he comes over to your house, and you know he's not there to harm you or your family and so on.

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But then you kill him because you're so angry at him. This, well, you're guilty of bloodshed there.

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So we can see the difference, we can tell the difference by the clarity of God's Word and by the

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Spirit -regenerated conscience. We can tell the difference, right? Yeah, the Bible gives us the categories we ought to be working by, and if we refuse to apply those categories, we get into that pacifism.

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Because we're actually, and a lot of times it's avoiding the categories that the Old Testament gives us for some reason. I don't know why that's usually the case, but when we turn the other cheek, we're usually heaping coals upon their head, as well adding insult to injury until we can find somebody to take vengeance for us.

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But I see it as kind of like an implication of, you shall not murder, you should also protect life, right?

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Like that is loving your neighbor. And whereas they may say, well you're not loving your neighbor by putting that man down.

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Well I'm loving my neighbors that are closest to me and I'm not gonna abdicate my responsibility to protect my wife and my children who are my closest neighbors.

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So yeah, let's apply this a little bit more specifically. Okay, let's say we have, what's the difference between Jesus saying to his disciples, hey, do we have enough swords?

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And then soon after that, him getting on to Peter, you live by the sword, you die by it.

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Right, you know, why did you try to take that man's head off? What's going on there? On one hand he's advocating, you know, you better be packing.

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And then on the other hand, he gets all over Peter for using it. What happened there?

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Didn't he willingly allow himself to be given over to those authorities? And didn't he tell his disciples, this is the way it has to be?

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Yeah, he knew what was gonna happen. So in this case, Peter is not trusting his

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Lord who said, this is what needs to happen. You had, you know, touched on that.

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That's trusting the Lord means trusting what he has said. What he has said regarding self -defense, what he has said regarding personal vengeance, what he has said regarding this is the state, and what

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Jesus said regarding what his mission was when he set his face like flint towards Jerusalem.

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That when he sent them out, they had to trust that he knew what he was doing by sending them with a couple of swords to go out and do the work he called them to do.

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And they also should have trusted what he said, I mean, that this is the will of my father.

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Don't get in the way of it. Get behind me, Satan. Yeah, I'm glad that you mentioned that because obviously Peter is the same one that Jesus spoke to about resisting the things of God and only being concerned with the things of man.

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All right, let's dive into this again. What's the difference between there being a person or a group of persons who you know to be a threat to you, your family, and your property, and you know possibly where they're at?

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You mean Congress? Wait, was that, I'm sorry, was that not the direction you were going?

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Well, you know, well that'll be, you know, further down the road here.

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Throw me off my stride. But what's the difference between that and you making a fair, reasonable assessment of that threat?

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And why is that, why is it different then between that and them or a person or a group of persons posing a threat being on your property or in your home?

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Why is violent resistance okay when the threat is imminent?

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Yeah, imminent, imminent threat, right. Versus a different type of imminence where you know it's gonna happen, it just hasn't happened yet.

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Time. Isn't that the major factor between the two is just this time that the authorities have to get there or not?

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Yeah, when seconds count, the police are ten minutes away. Like the jurisdiction is determined by the time in these cases,

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I guess you would say. And even exigent circumstances. Yeah. Well, and think about, again, in the household, in the government of the family, what is the father, what is the husband to do?

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And what is the mother to do? What are the older children to do in this case? But to act on the authority of the family, to defend the family.

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And this is, again, a God -bestowed, we're doing it in the fear of the Lord, right.

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This isn't taking things into our own hands, denying God's organization of these matters.

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The time difference is there. So if you believe there is a credible threat to you and your family, but they have not attacked, this is when you were to ask for the intervention of God's minister of vengeance to interdict and impede evildoers.

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That would be trusting God. Yes, exactly. Trusting how he set things up. Trusting that the state is the minister, trusting him for that.

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You have an imminent threat, then you're trusting that God has also set that up as well, with just the direct authority that the father would have in that family.

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A responsibility, God -given responsibility to defend his life, defend his family's life, because of the imminency of that threat.

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Either way, depending on the nature of the threat, in both cases, that person is trusting

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God. Okay, so now let's say further that we're living somewhere in mid or eastern

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Ukraine. Okay, we're a Christian family. We have a church. We're called

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Repenters by the Eastern Orthodox Church. They mock our warm following after Christ, right?

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Our lack of formalism and liturgy and so on and so forth, but we are a true band of believers, okay?

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And we see that there is a growing threat to the east, all right?

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War drums have been beating and growing louder and louder and louder. Now, it's wrong, we've already established, for us to then lose our patience, grab our

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AK -47, and go driving towards the Russian border and shoot the first Russian official we see, correct?

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That would be wrong. That would be not leaving room for vengeance, and then taking things into our own hands.

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But if we perceive there is a threat upon our border that will bring harm to us, our family, and our property, then we must appeal to who?

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The state. And this state is greasy and slimy and full of corruption and, you know, hard to stomach.

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All the above. But yet, yet, still in the position as a minister of God, still accountable to God for all that they do, and so we still trust the

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Lord. We're not trusting the state, notice, okay? We know their pitfalls. We're not trusting them.

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However, we trust the Lord and the system that he has put into place, and so we appeal to the state and say, your job is to protect us, you know, what are you doing?

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You need to oppose evil. Calling them to be faithful servants. Yes, calling them to be faithful servants.

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And then they're going to turn around and point at you and say, well, I see that you have a couple of years of military service in your background, and we're looking to bolster the local militias, and we need to organize a resistance.

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So when you sign up, okay, now the further question, after we talk about self -defense, would it be right for a

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Christian to sign up in that kind of situation? What do y 'all think?

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It's a corporate self -defense, in a sense. Also, it depends on your system of governance, so you could be conscripted regardless.

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True. And could be just drawn into service, but there's nothing that would prevent you from wanting to protect the lives of your family, and your neighbors, and your neighbors on a national scale.

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Yeah, don't you become then part of that minister, don't become that part of that that deacon of God, that you are now part of the state against a credible threat to your borders, to your safety, to your community, to your country.

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Right, and we see various people coming to faith in Christ and the scriptures that are part of the magistrate, right?

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We see centurions, or officials, or people of Caesar's household, and so on and so forth, coming to faith in Christ, and they're all part of the magistrate, part of that system of civil service.

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And we don't see a lot of them resigning their commissions as a result. No, they don't, and they remain a part of it.

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And remember even the soldiers who came out to hear the preaching of John the Baptist, and when they said, what must we do to be saved?

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In his instructions to the soldiers, he did not say, resign your commissions. He did not say, lay down your spears or your swords.

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He told them to live justly, that repentance for them would look like not coercing people out of their money, and to act justly, and that would be what repentance looked like in their life.

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In a situation like Ukraine and Russia, where it's not so clean, as far as like, there's some people on either side of the border that say they're on the other side of the border, or even in churches that may have like split opinions as to which side they prefer or vote to be a part of, would we say that, can they have an obligation to protect the sphere of sovereignty of the church against either side, and have some sort of neutrality, but in the conflict itself, but be there as a third party to protect their local area as well?

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I'm kind of thinking about the doctrine of the Lesser Magistrate, and if there's a town that is like, no, this is completely disputed, and we don't want to be a part of either of y 'all's nonsense, and your your little games that you're playing from your executive offices, maybe a local township can, upon their leader's request, be even in a militia that's separated from either side of the conflict as well.

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Yeah, there could be easily a situation where in a township, in a disputed area, that they know it's going to be disputed, don't want the higher -ups or some sort of federal system rolling in, taking their resources, changing things up, forcibly moving them off their lands, and the township says, no, you're not going to do that, you have no idea what's going on out here, and you're not just going to come in here and steal everything, you're acting unjustly.

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Right. And they organize their township for resistance against the Ukrainian flag, but then when the

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Russians roll in, they're also still in resistance mode, saying, this doesn't belong to you, stop trying to steal, just because you have more guns doesn't mean you just get to take everything.

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Right. Okay, and in that case, members there under that governance submitting to that local magistrate who's trying to do what they believe to be right, yeah,

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I mean, you see the flexibility and the importance of the doctrine of the lesser magistrate that, you know, we need to submit to the governing authorities, but then sometimes, of course, governing authorities will conflict with one another, and then we have to, you know, make a call there that agrees with Scripture.

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So I think what we've seen, though, is also I think we need to emphasize that a

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Christian militancy or a Christian pacifism ignores the fact that there is a lot of flexibility in the

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Scriptures regarding these dire situations, not in regards necessarily to, hey, this man's coming in because he wants to, you know, harm my family, you know,

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I could go either way. No, you're actually dereliction of duty if you don't defend your family. But in regards to, let's say, in a time of war, in a time of great disaster, we see in the

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Scripture that men protect their families sometimes by fleeing. Yeah, right. Relocation.

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Jesus himself told his followers about the Great Tribulation, to get out of Judea. He told them, flee, you know, get out.

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And Joseph and Mary went to Egypt. Exactly. So that is not a unbiblical response, okay, but then it's also a biblical response to band together to fight off evil, to oppose evil.

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So in this case, there's going to be the need to allow for some Christian liberty and the decisions that are being made, you know, however, which direction they're going to be going.

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They need to be praying for one another and supporting one another. I think it's important for the church to do exactly what you just described, that Christian liberty matters of conscience when you're dealing with something like the conflict in Ukraine that is so incredibly complex.

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I mean, I'm an international relations major, you know, I served in the military and I was what's called an air advisor, where we were literally trained to go alongside our counterparts in Afghanistan and be part of, which at that time was the most complex, weird system in the world, where you had layers upon layers upon layers of geopolitical actors, plus narco -terrorism, you know, plus cultural issues, and you had warlords, and then you had another group of legislatures in Kabul itself.

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I mean, just layer upon layer, talking about a complex, convoluted system. You didn't know what was going on.

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You have a similar idea here. I mean, I was in Iraq. That was complex.

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Sub -Saharan Africa, you want a complex, you know, environment? Try Somalia.

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Right. And then Afghanistan. You know, looking from the outside in, and not being an expert in Eastern Europe, I can tell you it is so complex that it is not a simple, as one of my family members described the conflict, is that this is just good versus evil.

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This is horrible what's going on. I was like, look man, it's probably evil versus maybe less evil, or maybe like evil versus evil, but you can't, as somebody looking from the outside, see the whole big picture.

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It is horrible what is happening. But the response from the church, you know, there or here, always has to be according to the

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Word of God, which we have talked about fighting evil. We've talked about banding together. We've talked about possibly fleeing.

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We've talked about the responsibility of husbands and fathers to protect their families. Talking about the responsibility of people to possibly join a just war, or possibly have a

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Christian resistance. I mean, there are, what we just described, five different possibilities depending upon the, you know, the situation.

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Yes. And it requires that Christian liberty and wisdom to know what those people are doing at that time.

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But to call it such a black and white issue, that these people on this side are evil, and they're the invaders, and these people are good, and we need to give 40 billion dollars to the people who are good.

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Yeah, you're just making the problem worse. Yeah, and I think the reductionism going on, trying to break it down into a bumper sticker, you know, a movie plot line that, you know, can sell, is, of course, deceptive.

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I like this verse in Daniel 11. Daniel chapter 11, in the description of conflict between nations and empires, and a mess of various warring factions.

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At one point in Daniel 11, talking about two kings who have been at war, have a moment to sit down together and basically sign a ceasefire.

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Okay, but listen to the way that God tells the story. In verse 27 of Daniel 11, both these kings hearts shall be bent on evil, and they shall speak lies at the same table, but it shall not prosper, for the end will still be at the appointed time.

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Bring us back to kind of where we began, reminding us of the sovereignty of God in the situation, and that we don't have to look around in these incredibly complex geopolitical situations where there's war going on.

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We don't have to look around for some sort of idealistic... Oppressed versus oppressor. I mean, that's what the whole thinking applied to this.

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Yeah, you're right. You are dead -on about the marxification of this conflict. Every conflict we've had, right?

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You're absolutely right, Dylan. That is really helpful. You want to know what else they all had in common?

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They all tried to get off the dollar system before war broke out. I'm just going to throw that out there to be a kink in this one.

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Are you talking about the Libyan dinar, the gold dinar? Yep, and same thing with Saddam. He was trying to go to gold as well.

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Well, I agree. But it's important to remember that when we're talking about conflict, sometimes we want to make sure that we know we're on solid ground engaging in any kind of violent conflict.

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We know that this is not to be taken lightly. We must take it seriously, and the best way to take it seriously is to fear the

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Lord. And if we find ourselves in a situation of self -defense, we may do so trusting the

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Lord. And if we find ourselves in a situation where we need to relocate and flee, that's trusting the

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Lord. If we find ourselves in a situation where we need to take up arms and stand with fellow citizens in an engagement which no doubt was started by evil versus evil and a whole bunch of mess that was deeply rooted for decades prior, and it's so complex that it's hard to see the black and white, good and evil, we don't have to fall for some tagline, some marxification of the conflict or some idealistic, you know, perfectly just war where we are, you know, wholly in our taking up of arms.

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We don't need any of that. All we need to know is that there is a true and imminent threat to our lives, our family, our property, and that the best way to take up self -defense is to do so under the banner of the state as tarnished as it is because that's

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God's minister to punish evildoers and that we may do so with good conscience. Amen to that.

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One of the things I was thinking about, we're talking about issues of conscience. We can recommend your sermon series that we went through,

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Romans 14, was that last year on issues of conscience, but it was applied to kind of some of the

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COVID restrictions or government restrictions. Yeah, it's 2020. Yeah, 2020, that's right. And I would say if you can take some of those categories of self -defense and war, you can almost map it across.

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And the same way Theodore Beza wrote a learned treatise on the plague, which I read a couple of years ago when all the

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COVID stuff started coming out, and he outlines almost the exact same amount and methodologies in either avoiding or combating the plague.

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You can go in and you can preach, you can flee, you can stay and choose to find different ways to be actively participating against the plague.

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There's all kinds of options within Christian conscience. So that is another one that is available resource that you can kind of map on self -defense in some way.

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That's really helpful. Another resource would be to read about and kind of study the situation surrounding and even read the contents of the confession of Magdeburg in which

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Christians had to fight to defend not only their lives and their families and their homes, their freedoms and so on, but they also had to fight to retain the doctrines of grace.

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So, I mean, they had a full -throated position from which to fight and they did fight.

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And that's something to think about. And again, you could also look through examples of reformers, some of them who fled like John Knox left

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Scotland to go to Geneva. And then you have Zwingli taking up his axe because of the imminent threat and going out and trying to defend their land from Catholic armies coming over the hill.

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So a lot of rich history for us to reflect upon, but of course, we got to go all the way back to the scriptures to see where these examples in history, what texts were they wrestling with and what were they looking at in the word to answer these questions?

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Yeah, that's good. Well, I think we can consider self -defense and our positions in national conflicts wrapped up.

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What are we thankful for today, Michael? I'm thankful for a cold, rainy couple of days in the middle of May.

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And Lord is good in the variety of weather here in Oklahoma. And I just rejoice in the giving of rain always reminds us the

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Lord's providence. I'm thankful that I travel all over the country and I just forget how difficult that is for normal people.

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My family to drive cross -country back and forth actually takes quite a bit out of them while I jump on a plane and crisscross in the country just on a day -to -day basis and I lose perspective.

33:07

But Amy and Elizabeth got back Saturday night after a very long drive and the car worked and they were healthy and they were safe and the weather cooperated.

33:18

It was just, even though it was late coming back in, I'm just thankful for the traveling mercies and a very good trip with Amy and her mom.

33:27

She got to spend that time with her. It was a great time of refreshing and just thankful that they're back home.

33:33

I'm thankful to God for the fruit of finished labors, recently finishing a portion of reconstruction on the house and the solace and comfort that that provides and being thankful to be able to do it yourself and in a manner that you feel is worthy of craftsmanship and that you put your labors in it.

33:55

Very thankful for such things. Amen. I'm thankful for crushed expectations, especially expectations that are shooting too low in my opinion.

34:04

Recently lost some work and lost some more work and then regained some in other places.

34:11

The Lord also provided a different perspective to me over the last few days over especially capabilities and work and how those should match up rather than my ideal of wanting to do certain things to provide other certain things for my family.

34:27

He has a different will than mine and I'm very thankful for that because my will leads me down some wrong roads.

34:35

But we are very thankful for the question we had today from Gwyneth and we hope that you continue to send questions in and we're always happy to hear from our listeners.

34:45

And that wraps it up for today. We are very thankful for our listeners and hope you will join us again as we meet to answer common questions and objections with Have You Not Read?