May 24, 2017 Show with Gregg Davidson on “The Grand Canyon: Monument to an Ancient Earth”: Part One of a Two-day Discussion of the Age of the Earth (Old Earth)

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Introducing the Two-Day Discussion on the Age of the Earth

I am very excited about something that we're doing which is quite unique. I mean, we've done things like this in the past in the program, but it's been a while. We are having a two-day discussion on an area that divides brothers in Christ where we are having both sides examined and.

The specific issue is the age of the earth and on day one of this two-part series today, we have dr. Greg Davidson of solid rock lectures and tomorrow Thursday May 25th God-willing we are going to feature.

Dr. Taz Walker of creation ministries international also known as CMI. But today as I mentioned, I am honored to have for the very first time on iron sharpens iron radio. Dr Greg Davidson of solid rock lectures.

He's a professor of geology and geological geological engineering at the University of Mississippi. Since 1996 currently serving as chair of the department. He's a frequent speaker and writer on subjects related to science and Christian faith.

He's the author of when faith and science collide and Faith science articles in journals such as modern Reformation and the Christian Research Journal. Today We are going to be discussing a book that he contributed to called the Grand Canyon monument to an ancient earth and Welcome for the very first time to iron sharpens iron radio.

Dr. Greg Davidson. Thank you. Pleasure to be with you in studio. With me is my co-host the reverend buzz Taylor. Hello. Once again.

It's good to be on with you Greg.

Likewise, and if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question for a dr Greg Davidson regarding the age of the earth. Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

And as I said today, we are going to be having a an explanation or defense of the old-earth position within creation science and tomorrow is the young earth position that will be defended or explained.

Gregg Davidson’s Christian Faith and Background

And Before I get into specific questions about the age of the earth and about your book Tell us something about solid rock lectures.

So briefly solid rock lectures is a small the Bible but also share a concern that those Those whose faith has been shaken because of misperceptions that being a Christian means rejecting. Option of trying to remove stumbling-blocks.

And unfortunately in this day and age when we use the phrase Christian scientists we have to give a little bit a little bit of an explanation. It's It's probably should be better said Christian scientists who are Christians because of the cult known as the Church of Christ scientists and so on but.

Yes, yeah, that's that's a better way of saying it. You're right. And and also before we get into the subject of at hand, please let our listeners know something about the religion of your youth your upbringing if any.

Religion and how our Sovereign Lord providentially drew you to himself and saved you. Sure.

And I recognize the important when hearing that a guest is a scientist working at a secular University. What does that exactly mean about his beliefs and what he's gonna what he's gonna be saying? So I am What would be? typically thought of as a conservative evangelical Christian.

I Have been raised in a Bible believing Bible teaching home. Both my grandfathers were actually preachers in Conservative Bible believing churches. I never had a particular moment when I could say that.

That's the day that I accepted Christ. Unless you count that year when I was eight like the 14 times that I asked Jesus into my heart just in case I hadn't Meant it the last time. But It really started to be to transition from being the face of my my own probably starting late high school and Then developing on through through college and then in grad school.

That's when I got to a point where I was Realizing that you know a lot of people around the world They they firmly believe that the religion that they were raised to believe is true. On a reading binge and read Bhagavad-gita the teachings of Translations came away from that intellect alone.

Well, how would how is your theology best succinctly defined today? So I already mentioned that it would be best heard by gladly affirm all of the Bible the reality of miracles of the Bible The divinity of Jesus Resurrection and how about the inerrancy of the scriptures inerrancy of Scripture as well.

You know, uh-huh. And when I when I was asking the question after you'd already described yourself as a conservative evangelical.

I was I was more trying to get more Specific. Like for instance, would you consider yourself a theologically reformed Christian a dispensationalist? Calvinist Arminian or you just don't like labels or is there any?

Any of those areas where you would fall into place that I Start with on questions like that what when I read in Scripture like Paul's kind of rebuking His you know particular church for saying I'm of Paul and I'm of Apollo I'm of Jesus knows Christ divided.

So so I like to emphasize that I'm a Christian. But yes, of course My particular doctrinal beliefs and positions are going to align better with some subset and more akin to reform theology. It's probably the closest myself.

Uh-huh. And how and when did your fascination with geology begin? Well, I mentioned my grandfather's were preachers, but my father was a biology professor at Community College and He he always had stuff.

We raised animals. He had all kinds of little biology experiments going on so I I grew up with a fascination for God's natural creation and I actually going Into my senior year of high school. My thinking at the time was I was going to get a biology degree and then go to seminary on into college Starting college.

I felt called more to geology and and then felt called to stay in that not realizing that Decades down the road. I was going to be cycling into theology and Christian apologetics and.

Why the Grand Canyon Book Was Written

If you could summarize the category of creation science that best identifies your position and a bit of the.

Journey that led you to arrive there. Answer that I'm going to start by separating.

Right. Mm-hmm.

The approach that we with either a Progressionary creation position the depth on how life is buried over a long earth history but without diving into whether that my own view God created the world to work so well and.

If you could. Let us know how this book the Grand Canyon monument to an ancient earth came to be and let us know about the primary.

Contributors other than yourself each had his or hers including myself. The motivation for the book would have Christian culture. So when our youth and seek they far too often assume that certain way.

They're in college and they're learn. It's not a lot of attention on the Grand Canyon Saying that it offers conveyed by catastrophic flood and non-scientists hold ourselves We that a lot of critical information gets and we felt that there was a need for people to understand what geologists actually see in The canyon that convinces them that.

And for me how amazing it is that God's given us Really cool tools to be able to figure out events that happen before any eyes were. And some of the other primary contributors.

I know that Ken wolgamuth who I met actually personally had lunch with him who was formally on the faculty at Dickinson College, which is about a Five minute walk from where I'm sitting. But and if you could tell us a little bit about him and some of the other folks that are contributing to this.

Yeah, so I have to tell you just one little tidbit or tangential thing about that gets against the founder of solid rock lectures and He and I actually attended a class together at Messiah College many many years ago.

Hmm, we figured that out much much later because the way it Turns out he was actually enrolled in the class as my mother was who was pregnant with me at the time. Wow.

So that's how you're in the same place at the same time, yes.

So Carol Hill is the senior editor. This was kind of her dream or for many many years having a real burden really struggling. And we had biologists.

Palaeontologists and well, it is quite a beautiful book. I mean it is The type of book that many might categorize as a coffee table book, but it's an academic Coffee table book. It's not just a coffee table book filled with photographs, but it is quite a gorgeous book.

Hardcover book. The kind of book that could last centuries. And perhaps survive through fire and flood. No, no pun intended, but it is a really nice job and I would hope that the Young Earth creationists would come out with a book of this quality as far as the actual binding and printing I'm speaking of right now.

And very very beautiful book indeed. And let me just read a Endorsement that Wayne Grudem that somebody that I would I would imagine most of my listeners are aware of who Wayne Grudem is from Phoenix Seminary.

This important book must be carefully considered by everyone involved in the debate about the age of the Earth. And Paul Copan. He is with Palm Beach Atlantic University says irenic in spirit scientifically informed and biblically sound.

Flood Geology and the Grand Canyon

Well.

Since this is at the core of what we are discussing if you could define flood theology I'm sorry. I said theology. I meant geology.

Describe the vast majority of the Earth's Sedimentary deposits in in today this day and age. It's almost synonymous with just young earth creationism. I don't personally know I'm not sure. I know anyone that would identify themselves a young young earth creationist and not agree with flood geology.

It derives Mostly from The belief that there was no death. There was no animal death prior to Adam and Eve sin. And yet there are miles of thickness of sediments that contain the remains of dead organisms.

You you you're left with the only option of there being some catastrophe that happened between Adam and Eve sin and the present and the only one that's that's presented to us and Noah's flood in the Bible series of steps That get from a particular understanding of scripture.

Well, I'm gonna take a listener question. Ted in Tuscaloosa, Alabama. Says greetings from across the state line in Alabama. Tomorrow your debate Counterpart will argue that the Grand Canyon was formed in approximately one year's time.

Since you will not be on the program to refute this claim I wonder if you could take the time on today's show to ex to briefly explain in layperson's terms if possible Why you think that time frame is completely insufficient?

That's Ted from Tuscaloosa, Alabama.

It is it's a combination of things and and actually what may be surprising to when I I'm actually impressed that the The most straightforward reading of Genesis 1 again, they as God is trustworthy study.

It's we then go to study it and allow it to communicate its own the creation of God that just start like. The flood model says that the mile of sediments Above what's called the great unconformity must be deposited by Noah's flood within the first hundred and yet.

There's almost there's actually two miles of sediment that's under the great unconformity that looks just like the sediments above it, but you've got the same kind of sequence of layers with mud cracks and Ripple marks and all the kind it basically looks the same as what's above.

How did that get there without a global flood? Or the fact that the flood model says that you've got a tsunami sweeping over continent which should sweep all sorts of marine and terrestrial organisms and mix them into a Huge jumbled mess actually worse than what we saw with the Japanese tsunami isn't boats in the same layer.

It is mixed all sorts of creatures together in all sorts of different layers and Yet when you look in the Grand Canyon You have two miles below the great and nothing in it but single-celled organisms and then you get above that unconformity still in the Grand Canyon now and In a mile of sediments.

You don't have a single dinosaur or even flowering plant. Flowering plant pollen In pollen that gets in the air and goes everywhere. So for there to not even be any flowering pollen in the entire three miles of Sediment it doesn't make any sense from us if those plants weren't around yet.

If those organisms weren't around yet, and they came along the scene at various times later in Earth's history. Then of course it makes perfect sense and if you have at work Where the Earth's moving and jostling around and and that's not just hypothesized.

We actually have GPS systems and satellites that measure That it makes perfect sense that as one plate moves into another. You have different time periods of the land rising and the land falling. You have different periods of Earth's history at a various at a particular place Ocean water for a while.

They are almost all the ever mix five-minute answer of a 260 page book.

Well, guess what Ted in Tuscaloosa, Alabama? You have just won a free copy of the Grand Canyon Monument to an ancient earth. Can Noah's Flood explain the Grand Canyon? By our guests and other contributors.

And so please make sure we have your full mailing address so we can ship that out to you. I have a feeling that Our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service who ship out all of our listeners. Who win Bibles and books and DVDs and so on them.

I'm sure that they may be a little bit upset today because this book weighs about 40 pounds. I'm just exaggerating there. But the shipping way about a half an inch. But it's a it's quite a heavy book there, but.

Thanks for contributing to today's show with your question and keep listening to our insurance iron and spreading the word about the program. In Tuscaloosa, Alabama and beyond and we thank our friends at Kriegel publications for providing these books and also our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service for shipping out these books and That website is CV for Cumberland Valley BBS for Bible book service comm.

CV BBS comm. And I'm going to read a question to you and then I'll have you answer it when we return from the break. So this way you'll have time to mull it over during the commercial break. In fact, I I'll even email you the listener questions so you can have it right in front of you and.

And this way you could even mull it mull it over easier during the break but Sterling from Greensboro, North Carolina, and it's kind of interesting providentially. He is with the American Gems Society in the Gemological Institute of America or at least he was licensed through those organizations.

So it does have some kind of a tie-in I think with geology but Sterling says how do you deal with the issue of day in? Genesis chapter 1 by what warrant is this day to be considered a longer span in 24 hours?

And finally how long was God's day of rest? Sabbath if it is not a literal 24 hour day and We'll have you look that over as I said when we're on our station break if anybody else would like to join us on The air our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Don't go away. We'll be right back with Greg Davidson. I am Chris Arnzen host of iron sharpens iron radio here to tell you about an exciting offer from world magazine. My trusted source for news from a Christian perspective.

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Genesis 1 and the Meaning of the Days

Welcome back. This is Chris Arns. And if you just tuned us in Today is day one of a two-day discussion on the age of the earth and our first day of this discussion Features our guest dr. Greg Davidson of solid rock lectures and we're talking about a book.

He contributed to the Grand Canyon Monument to an ancient earth tomorrow Thursday, May 25th. We will feature. Dr Walker of creation ministries international CMI who is a young earth Creationist, but if you'd like to join us on the air with a question for our guest Greg Davidson Representing the old earth position.

Our email address is Chris Arnson at gmail .com. Chris Arnson at gmail .com. And before the break Dr. Davidson, as you know, I Emailed you a question from Sterling in Greensboro, North Carolina, and also I read the question on the air, but I'll quickly read it again.

How do you deal with the issue of day in Genesis chapter 1 by what warrant is this day? To be considered a longer time span than 24 hours. And finally, how long was God's day of rest the Sabbath if it is not a literal 24-hour day?

So that's an excellent question. Unfortunately, I have thought about this before so that two minutes was was enough to actually be able to pull those thoughts together. And by the way, I will say that I think some subliminal advertising was going on in with solid rock remodelers.

I'm not sure whose side that would have been benefiting but.

Yeah, they can wait. I'm about to put an addition on my house. I think I might need solid rock remodeler. Yes. So the question it's an excellent question and an important one and It will it may I've said this a couple times that it may surprise readers.

I think the word day means a day a 24 hour day but now what I do with that is Maybe a little bit different than what people are used to and and I I like to use scripture to understand scripture. So if I go to another scripture, they don't.

Well, did he mean foot? But what does he mean by is that really what like? Well, yes, I think he really meant what but do I think he meant that I should really cut my foot off. No, I don't. So the point isn't the deeper message of you need to take drastic method measures to to deal with with your sin.

So when I go to Genesis 1 and I'm reading about these days and it says evening and morning one day. That communicates to me that that it's it's saying a day however, when I'm digging deeper into the meaning of that how is this being used and what it's trying to communicate and I See things in Genesis 1 like light being separated from dark in day one.

But then again in day four, it's like did it not work in day one? Or even the notion of light being stuff that has tremendous spiritual meaning physical meaning whatsoever. The dark is not an entity that can be separated.

It's just the absence of light. It'd be akin to to me handing. You know pushing a pile of beans in front of you and saying I want you to separate beans from the absence of beans. And then there's other things in Genesis as well that says wait, I need to look deeper into this and it's at that point when I realized that.

The way it's set up is so cool that you've got these these rhyming Hebrew words of tohu and bohu meaning formless and empty and. Then you have two sets of three days that parallel each other each other one giving form where you've got realms of light and dark the realm of sea and sky the realm of Filling of where I'm filling the realm of light and dark with sun moon and stars.

Filling sea and sky with fish and set in the context of a human workweek that ends with a day of rest to God the calendar days. The point is that this is not just a God who made stuff. He makes the three realms in which that spent so much richer.

It's not intended to be communicating to us. Instruction on nature it's instructing us on the kingdom of God and the nature of the Creator that made not just stuff but even the very realms which well.

Relative Dating, the Geologic Column, and Radiometric Dating

Thank you sterling and guess what? You have also won a copy of the Grand Canyon Monument to an ancient earth. Can Noah's flood explain the Grand Canyon by our guest and other contributors. So, please make sure we have your full mailing address and we'll have that shipped out to you by our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Service.

And we thank Kriegel publications again for these books. And Before I go back to my own question, I will return to one more listener question. For now Charles and Cumberland County, Pennsylvania says the volume of the Grand Canyon is about 2 ,600 cubic miles or about 14 .2 trillion cubic yards.

A lot of the material that was eroded should have been carried downstream. Why don't we find a huge Delta on the Colorado River? Where did that eroded material go?

So it's a good question. Geologists don't know where that sediment one is. They actually do know where it went. You've got large. Deposits can logically be traced back to the Grand Canyon southwest of the canyon on into California.

And the other thing that I'll say about that is That that that challenge is often made by the young earth side without recognition that If that was really a problem, they'd have the same problem if it's a question.

Well, thank you Charles and you're also winning. Or you have also won. I should say a copy of the Grand Canyon Monument to an ancient earth. So please give us your full mailing address and we'll have that shipped out to you.

How do we use the present to understand the past?

Another good question neither of those of using the present. So it's really just saying that the same God's creation works. Ideas that the geologists think that everybody's seen a big meteorite wipe out.

That was obviously a process that happened at a much faster rate in the past than anything. We've panic eruptions in earth history that were much larger. Geologists are quite open to to rates having been slower or faster.

They're looking for evidence of that in the record like the size of the volcanic ash deposits for that. They find an enormous crater in in a layer all same time period. Large meteorite impact. Looking at these kinds of processes things in the geologic record and I have one more thing to that.

There's some irony in From the young earth community claiming that that's not appropriate. Because they actually use the same methodology when they're going into the looking at the geologic record and trying to make their case for Why this is evidence of butter today in order to try to to defend that argument in some sense.

Doesn't make sense that they're making. Well, please give us some examples of puzzles you face and how you attempt to solve those puzzles.

So by puzzles, do you mean like geologic? Puzzles or how to deal with the faith and science issue puzzle like you could answer it either way or both. So one of the puzzles that is There's things that are observed you try to figure out a way of Hypotheses the currently known this kind of touches on both the practice of science and Communicating to the people in the science and faith that take something like radiometric dating.

There is Initially when radiometric dating was being done There were a lot of assumptions were free of contamination that the radionuclides that were present weren't Coming and going from the people have scientists if they haven't been free of in my area.

Would you like me to share one with you? Yeah, sure. Okay, so the idea of being able to put our hypotheses to a test and and be able to Give us confidence that radiometric dating works if I go to The if I just take my GPS on my phone same technology That tells me how fast I'm driving By bouncing a signal off a satellite from where I was a minute ago and now bouncing that same signal off the satellite from where?

I am now That gives me a distance and a time that converts into miles per hour. I mean technology is used today to actually track the move continent real time. We can watch North America Drifting away from Europe and after roughly an inch per year I'm still waiting for the airline.

Getting an inch farther away every year we can take ages of ocean that are based on radiometric dating methods and we can measure that distance from North America to Europe and we can We can take the radiometrically determined Age list edge of the ocean and we can work our way back and what age was it at different points between here and the mid-ocean Ridge and We can calculate What the spreading rate was? based on that radiometric age.

Now for radiometric dating doesn't work or isn't trustworthy or if radiometric You know radioactive decay rates were changing or variable in the past We have no reason to expect that that's going to give the same number that we're measuring with our GPS unit.

It comes out to about an inch per year. Huh that God has given us such cool tools. For being able to be able to in the distant past when nobody was there to see it. Hmm.

Well, I'm gonna have to explain myself a little bit to the listeners. But if you could define relative dating and I want to make sure our listeners know that I'm not speaking about something that goes On in the backwoods of the Ozarks or in the royal family of England when I talk about relative dating but if you could define relative dating and the geologic column.

So you just stole my joke.

I'd no idea you were gonna tell any kind of a joke related to that.

When I'm teaching this Relative dating one we call Calendar dating the idea of relative dating is I may not have any idea what the actual age of something is. But I can figure out an order of events if I have just a stack of sedimentary layers.

Horizontal sedimentary layers it could be as simple as well. You know that sand layer had to be there in order for the limestone to form on stones older than the limestone. You know to be there in order to be faulted.

So faults younger than when we move to fossils the way relative dating works is that if we go to many many parts of the world and we see a particular sequence or assemblage of fossils that are all sequence of us then Eventually we can say all right.

We've seen that consistently in so many different places. We can now be pretty confident that the one assemblage is Younger than the other assemblage. We don't know actually how old they are. We just know an order.

But I sometimes compared that with Looking at say a typical freshman versus senior that relative dating is Is saying that the senior is older than the freshman without knowing their actual ages? When I get to calendar app or absolute dating then I'm looking for an actual age the senior is 21 fresh most of the geologic column before we had any knowledge of the calendar a it was all prior to radiometric dating and They were just using all of these tools to solve this well.

And I should say that the reason why we have terms like Jurassic and Cambrian and all of those Is in part because they didn't know how old they were right period with a name and the convention started to be Studied a particular time period.

In fact, could you pick up right where you left off because we have to go to a break.

Sure, and anybody would like to join us email us at Chris Arnson at gmail .com. Chris Arnson at gmail .com. This is where we take our Elongated midway break. So be patient and we'll be right back God-willing with our guest right after these messages.

Science, Faith, and the Limits of Dating Methods

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